Reality is relative

[Jesus-Man]

No one can know if reality is existent. They can know they are real due to the fact that they have a concious mind, but they can never know if life or all it entails is truely existent or some elaborate hallucination because they cannot know if anyone else has a concious mind. Does this make sense to anyone but me?

[Perndog]

You'll know I'm real when I kill you.

[Jesus-Man]

feisty aren't we

[Emu]

I have a better question: Who gives a flying fuck? >:

[derrida]

No one can know if reality is existent. They can know they are real due to the fact that they have a concious mind, but they can never know if life or all it entails is truely existent or some elaborate hallucination because they cannot know if anyone else has a concious mind. Does this make sense to anyone but me?

See solipsism, or radical skepticism. There is no way to disprove this assumption, though I consider it to be an immature philosophy. Thee're alot more interesting ideas out there, imho, but it's good that you're thinking about this sort of stuff.

[mesobe]

I have a better question: Who gives a flying fuck? >:

this is a forum. what the fuck else are you suppose to do.

[theapportioner]

The old brain in the vat problem never dies. Dennett's explanation is satisfactory, I think.

[kahljorn]

yea, this is a really basic topic ;/

I've taken Perception to lengths nobody sho uld ever take it in their lifetime, up to collective consciousness, and to theories beyond it.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

No, come on guys, Reality isn't really real.

[kellychaos]

How come it has a name, then ... huh?! >:

[mesobe]

Santa Claus has a name, but he isnt real.

[kellychaos]

You better let HIM hear you say that! >:

[The One and Only...]

Reality is necessarily existent, as your perceptions must be real.

[Jesus-Man]

A hallucination is a perception and it isn't real.

[kahljorn]

Hallucinations aren't real? They create very real emotions in the person who is deluded, who very real like may jump out of a window to escape them, or kill someone.

[Jesus-Man]

True but those things that cause whatever real acts a person may take while hallucinating are not existent except in that person's mind.

[The One and Only...]

The hallucination causes a perception. The perception must exist, even if what is perceived does not. Therefore, the perception must be real.

[kahljorn]

If that is true Jesus, than your entire life is a fraud. The very first comment made in this thread is that you can never really know if what is going on is just inside your head, or not.

That comment just had too many holes to point out, it's below a good response.

[Jesus-Man]

A perception cannot cause phisical damage. It exists only in the mind.

My entire life is a fraud, but lets not get into that. If there are so many holes it would be possible to prove reality is not just a figment of imagination. Feel free to do so if that is what you desire.

[The One and Only...]

Irrelevant. If it exists in the mind, it still exists.

[Jesus-Man]

This isn't Nightmare on Elm Street or the Matrix. In a perception, something is percieved (obviously), if what is percieved is not real, the perception is an illusion.

[kahljorn]

If you percieve your girlfriend cheated on you, because of some viscious rumor, so you go and kill her, it did harm.

If some stupid goth kid thinks everyone hates him because he has social anxiety and slits his wrist, it did harm.

If some schitzophrenic person thinks his mother is part of the FBI who are possessed by aliens so they try to save her by injecting random drugs into her and she dies, it did harm.

Just because, to you, their perception may not be real, does not mean it doesn't effect this reality in a very real way, and as effecting this reality it will effect yours;
I.e., the schitzophrenic person who killed his mother also killed his best friend, because they were in cohoots, this best friend of his was your younger brother. Very real effect on your reality, something you can understand.

In a simpler, more chaotic and complex way, somewhere along the way, some crazy unrealistic person did something to horribly effect someone, who horribly effected a 100 other people, who horribly effected another 100 people, and so on, until that single chain of events ends up hitting you, and effects your reality. So no matter how you look at it, you are always just going to be a result of people who don't fit into your perception.

That is also a way to explain karma ;)

I'm sure you can agree, that someone who believes something untrue, and false, is deluded-- whether or not they are insane-- and despite this fact, people will act on their delusions... so even if there hav ebeen no crazy people in some way contacted with you, there is going to be someone who believed something false, or merely functioned off of their perception.

In effect, there is nobody on this earth who doesn't fun ction off of perception and fallacy.

Like a christian who raises a child, or a buddhist. Or a mormon. or a jew. One of those has to be "Wrong" by most standards of reality.

[kahljorn]

That's not even considering the psychology of the situation...

[Big Papa Goat]

physical damage? :rolleyes

[Jesus-Man]

It causes mental damage which then causes the person to react phisically. If you started to hallucinate, and in this hallucination a turtle paited on a wall jumped out and started to attack you, you would be terrified and act as if it was really happening, but when that turtle actually hit you, it would have no physical effect. You would not bleed because that turtle is not there. You would kick and scream and swing chairs at it to fight it off, and it may react, but the fact remains that there is no turtle and you are swinging a chair mindlessly. I know that is what would happen because it happened to me when I took LSD.

[kahljorn]

When you're in a dream and you get hurt, you feel pain. If you think pain and physical sensations make any real difference, then you are absolutely stupid. There are people who can get stabbed by knives, and not feel anything at all. They can even make it so they won't bleed. Then there are other people, like me for example, who can force themselves to hallucinate rather easily. There's no brain damage, no bullshit involved, just creating a conscious hallucination.

There are also people who can make sensations in there body, just about everyone can do it. If you focus on one part of your body long enough, it will get tingly. You can also imagine pain, and become convinced the pain exists to the point that it becomes real. It's like hypochondriacs who insist they have some painfully dehibilitating disease, and they can feel it, yet when the doctors scan nothing is there.

If hallucinations weren't real, there would be no cause and effect. It's thermodynamics, and it's a law of the universe. Whether it results from lsd, brain damage, or forcing it upon yourself doesnt make a difference when you think spiders are biting and killing you. You will RUN LIKE FUCKING HELL AND TRY TO STOMP THEM TO DEATH.

Also, when you are looking at alot of hallucinations or spirits, their manifestations may indeed not be of a physical nature. This is because of their very foundation, the mind. They are created within your mind, in an immaterial fashion, while knives and guns are created in physical material aspect. Most people don't see a knife or a gun and freak out and go OMG IM GONNA DIE OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMGO OGM OGMGOMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG, otherwise people would never touch guns. There is absolutely no thought to a dead piece of metal, is there? Do you talk to your guns and knives? Do you share thoughts? Do they have their own philosophy about people who use them to kill b ut they are cursed to be a gun and they hate killing.
It takes alot to cross the boundary between physical and mental, and it usually takes a Mental thought behind it, like somebody thinking they are going to kill you, or somebody who has suffered trauma from a particular object and thus has an unnatural fear for it. The same works Visa Veersa. It would take a certain kinds of manifestations in order for it to hurt you, physically. BUT HALLUCINATIONS CAN CAUSE VERY VERY EMOTIONAL/MINDFUL DAMAGE, no matter if they have physical manifestations contained within them.

Remember, perceptions and reality is a thing of the mind, so the very basis of your argument is deconstucting itself.

Also, I should mention, there are alot of people who dream and fuck with conscious manipulation, and psychic shit.. who often times get attacked by a force that wo uld seem invisible to you, yet it leaves a bruise or some other kind of physical mark.

[Jesus-Man]

Even if you can feel your pain in dreams, or force a sensation on a part of yourself, it doesn't change the fact that no matter what the dream, halluciantion, vision or anything else, there will be no physical damage. If you dream/hallucinate etc. that you are stabbed you will not have a wound. They can cause emotional and mental damage, but a reality that is only existent in the mind is not a full reality, just part of one.

[kahljorn]

So anything that doesnt cause Physical Damage is not real. Like eatting. And uhhh... running. And walking. And sitting. And talking. And playing video games. and throwing temper tantrums. And not eatting your peas.

and posting on message boards.

I'm so leading you to a response. Go on. Goooo on.

EDIT: EVERYBODY JUST LET HIM FALL INTO MY TRAP DONT SAY ANYTHING SHHHHH.

[Big Papa Goat]

Unless you disagree that all things that exist are real, you can't argue that perceptions are not real.
But then, it could be argued that the only things that are real are those that exist without being perceived. :/

[mesobe]

Reality is not static just like how time is not static. Einstein said that space and time actually reacts to each and every person (or any mass) based on their situation (the paradox twins for example). Reality works the same way.

Each one of us lives our lives in a certain matter or behavior based on our perception of our surroundings... likes, dislikes... how and what each of us were taught, exposure to something either in a negative or positive fasion, what we grow up with etc etc. All of these things are our own view of reality and causes us to do what we do in our everyday lives.

This is why I happen to love thunderstorms and I will often go walking in them while my friend hates them and locks himself up in his house when they hit because he was caught in a thunderstorm once while he was in an airplane.

these examples are not as extreme as a skizo screaming at the top of his lungs and swining at invisible attackers, but its the little tiny things most of us tend to overlook.

[Jesus-Man]

If you dream about running and kick your legs, you're still not running. If you hallucinate a man and a gun and shoot him in the head, you are still not shooting. If are in a coma locked in your house and no one knows you are there , and you dream about eating, you will still starve because a mental action is not a physical one. Reality is a perception, and perceptions change. Besides, even if I fail to win this argument, you would still not be able to prove anything is really what it seems.

[Big Papa Goat]

But the perception of eating exists right?

[Jesus-Man]

The perception exists, but it cannot nourish you. You may react to the perception as though it was real but you still aren't eating.

[Big Papa Goat]

So? If it exists, it's real.

[Jesus-Man]

The dream does exist, the food doesn't. Even though reality is just a perception, that doesn't mean that all perceptions are real. If you look at something through binoculars you percieve whatever it is to be close to you but it is not.

[mesobe]

someones mental perception of the world isnt anything like an optical illusion by some man-made object. You dont walk around your whole life with binoculars taped to your head.

thats a weak example.

[kahljorn]

There is a phenomenon where strong mental thought can cause the same things as the real thing.

But first...

In dreams, when you get scared, your heart rate increases, and you get an adrenaline rush. And your brain crinkles, and nuerons are shot. That's a physical effect. I'm sorry, but you get the exact proportional response as if it was really happening to you. THE PHYSICAL BODY IS JUST A SHELL, THE MIND IS WHERE THE WORLD REALLY IS.

Sitting around thinking you are working out and picturing it and feeling it can cause the exact same effect as if you were actually working out. That is a scientifically proven fact.
How do you explain phenemenon like this?

THE PHYSICAL BODY IS JUST A SHELL, THE MIND IS WHERE THE WORLD REALLY IS.

THE ONLY REASON YOU CAN FEEL PHYSICAL SENSATION IS BECAUSE YOUR MIND FEELS IT THROUGH THE NERVOUS SYSTEM, ERGO, ALL WORLDY AND PHYSICAL SENSATIONS ARE JUST A RESULT OF THE MIND AND THE EXACT EXPERIENCE AS IF IN A DREAM.

[Jesus-Man]

Umm... apparently you don't realise that the entire point of this thread is to prove that reality is all in the head, which is just what you pointed out.

Even if it is a man-made optical illusion it is still an altered perception which is false. True that no one will walk around with binoculars taped to their head their entire life, but no one will see the world as they did when they were born for the rest of their life either.

[mesobe]

please. do you know someone who could even remember the world when they were first born?

I didnt "point out" that reality is all in the head. I said that it isnt global or static. Your not going to prove that reality isnt real anyways. You are just a pitiful weak human being like the rest of us unable of even conceving an "un-reality".

I hate it when people try to pass themselves off as Yoda with some stupid sense of intelligence and insight. Now *that* is a false reality.

[Jesus-Man]

I wasn't talking to you when I said that first part. Even if no one remembers being born, by that age the brain is developed enough to have thought. If you (I mean you mesobe) were to have grown to about 70 years old and suddenly you were moved from earth to some place where all exixtence is underwater and you couldn't move and lived in a sack you would see it quite strangely, especially if all your food was given to you intravenously. Just in case you are too stupid to figure it out that is the exact opposite of what happens in birth.

[mesobe]

gee... you seem to have the whole universe figured out with your lame old man and sack theories, but you have yet to master the "quote" button.

come back after you have developed a few pubic hairs.

[Jesus-Man]

anger is the number one reaction to making an ass out of yourself. Have fun fun FUN continuing to do so.

[mesobe]

anger is the number one reaction to making an ass out of yourself. Have fun fun FUN continuing to do so.

even before stupidity?


who gave this guy a keyboard?

[Jesus-Man]

Oh now you're upset that you can't find a good argument against me.

[AChimp]

This thread is like a retarded kid's younger retarded brother. Your ideas are most definitely not new, and you reek of unoriginality.

If you want to raise eyebrows, why don't you argue that reality is cheese or something equally assine?

[Emu]

EVERYBODY. I DECREE THAT THE EPICENTER OF REALITY IS DRYER LINT. DISCUSS, FAGS

[mesobe]

http://thebathroomwall.org/fat_and_ugly.jpg

[mesobe]

EVERYBODY. I DECREE THAT THE EPICENTER OF REALITY IS DRYER LINT. DISCUSS, FAGS


PROVE IT ASSHOLE

[camacazio]

I'm studying for a physics major. I'll be damned if anyone tells me that all I know about how the universe functions is all my own made-up crap in my perception.

You fucking nut-case.

[kahljorn]

It doesn't really matter, he doesn't really have any proper responses to any points, it's all just OH GOD ITS REALLY REAL AND EVERYONE SEES IT THE SAME which is false. Nothing you have said has even countered anything in the remotest sense ;/

but that's ok... have fun.. repeating.. yourself... repeating... yourself... repeating... yourself... repeating... yourself... repeating.. yourself.

[AChimp]

It's okay, kahl. This thread has already been saved. ;)

[Emu]

EVERYBODY. I DECREE THAT THE EPICENTER OF REALITY IS DRYER LINT. DISCUSS, FAGS


PROVE IT ASSHOLE

I DON'T HAVE TO. STARE INTO THE LINT AND ALL WILL BECOME CLEAR.

[mesobe]

perhaps jesus-man could intrigue us with his theories on how baby snowmen are born. If the "father" snowman was born in a sack with binoculars of course.

[mesobe]

EVERYBODY. I DECREE THAT THE EPICENTER OF REALITY IS DRYER LINT. DISCUSS, FAGS


PROVE IT ASSHOLE

I DON'T HAVE TO. STARE INTO THE LINT AND ALL WILL BECOME CLEAR.

BUT HOW DO I KNOW THAT "STARING" IS REAL??? IM SO CONFUSED

[kahljorn]

EVERYBODY. I DECREE THAT THE EPICENTER OF REALITY IS DRYER LINT. DISCUSS, FAGS


PROVE IT ASSHOLE

I DON'T HAVE TO. STARE INTO THE LINT AND ALL WILL BECOME CLEAR.

BUT HOW DO I KNOW THAT "STARING" IS REAL??? IM SO CONFUSED

I just wanted to make a box within a box within a box within a box, because I am convinced that the box within a box within a box is the answer the the question posed.

THE END.

[mesobe]

its like.... LOOKING... into the... space... time continumm

[kahljorn]

omg i can see my own death... wow he kinda looks like mel gibson and jim carrey put together.

[kellychaos]

The virus has gotten past the FTP filters! Abort before it works it's way into the main database! :eek

[Child of Belial]

omg i can see my own death... wow he kinda looks like mel gibson and jim carrey put together.

no Kahljorn, you're just looking in the mirror again....

[Emu]

NOOBS DON'T GET TO MAKE BAD INSULTS.

[kahljorn]

OH YOU WELL WHATEVER YOU SAY BOUNCES OFF OF ME AND STICKS TO YOU CAUSE IM RUBBER AND YOURE GLOW NANANANAANA

[mesobe]

he used the mirror joke!!! holy shit. Welcome to grade 6 everyone!

[The One and Only...]

This isn't Nightmare on Elm Street or the Matrix. In a perception, something is percieved (obviously), if what is percieved is not real, the perception is an illusion.

You are still missing the point. Even if the perception is an illusion which does not represent any actual spacio-temporal object, that illusion is still real.

[kellychaos]

The only thing you can be sure of is your own existence. Done and done. Merci, Monsieur Descartes. :)

[mesobe]

The only thing you can be sure of is your own existence. Done and done. Merci, Monsieur Descartes. :)

hah. I will doubt even that!

[kellychaos]

Yeah, well ... let me know how that works out for you.

[mesobe]

I wont be sure...