View Full Version : Basque assholes
Sethomas
Mar 11th, 2004, 01:00 PM
If they haven't had autonomy anytime in the past 2500 years, why the fuck would they want it so much now that everyone is jumping on the European unification train (pardon the irony)? I was just living in Madrid less than a month ago, and I plan on passing through Basque territory this weekend on a jaunt to Barcelona. This had better not ruin my mission to buy absinthe.
Terrorists are jerks.
ItalianStereotype
Mar 11th, 2004, 01:02 PM
aren't the Basques in the region where Navarra used to be?
Zhukov
Mar 11th, 2004, 10:04 PM
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/3500452.stm
ETA has denied responsibility. And organisations don't normally carry out bombings like this with no obvious benefit only to say "wasn't us". ED: ETA has not issued a response at all...
I'm just glad to see the 'war on terror' is working
Al-Qaeda maybe???
As the ETA's political wing pointed out, these bombings are probably "Arab resistence". Their goal is different than that of the ETA. They are trying to tell Spainish people "is being in Iraq worth turning your country into a combat zone."
I don't know.
Mongolia, Albania, Lithuania - Watch out.
theapportioner
Mar 11th, 2004, 11:02 PM
Yeah there's so much conflicting evidence I don't know what to think. It is eerie though...
And I certainly don't like the sound of this "winds of black death" strike on the USA.
Brandon
Mar 12th, 2004, 06:17 PM
March 11th? That's a creepy coincidence.
On one of the newscasts, probably CNN, there was a brief statement from a Muslim cleric in London, who refused to believe that al Qaeda was involved because they "do not kill innocent civilians."
Where the fuck has this guy been for the past couple of years?
kahljorn
Mar 12th, 2004, 06:31 PM
Americans aren't innocent, silly goose. We are fifth dimensional demonic beings looking to send the world into a void of nothingness.
SupaFlea543
Mar 12th, 2004, 06:32 PM
Man that was pretty funny, because what you did there was exhagerate and then start making up goofy but still believable things.
Zhukov
Mar 12th, 2004, 08:17 PM
The CCOO and UGT trade unions called for a 15-minute stoppage at factories and workplaces. I think ALL of Spain is in mourning.
I still don't think anyone can be sure whether this is Al Qaeda or ETA, or, more likely, extremist elements in or around ETA, or a splinter group. Whether theapportioner was being sarcastic or not, there is still alot of conflicting evidence.
The police have found a van with detonators and a tape with Koranic verses. A letter claiming responsibility was received by Al-Quds Al-Arabi paper in London.
ETA usually waits days or weeks before taking responsibility for its attacks, to disrupt any calmness that may have settled. I was mistaken in my earlier post when I stated that ETA said something like "wasn't us", I heard this on the news but it turns out that they haven't actually issued a statement. It is surprising that ETA has not issued any claim of innocence, esspecialy after the massive spontaneous demonstrations of the Basque people protesting against the bombings.
Indiscriminate bombings of civilians have not been typical of ETAs methods. They are, however, completely in tune with the methods of Al Qaeda. The most that ETA have ever killed is 21, and this was when the authorities didn't heed their warning (ETA issue warnings so people don't get hurt, bless.)
The explosive used in yesterday's blasts was titadine, a compressed dynamite that ETA has used in the past. More explosives were found in the possession of an alleged ETA member, who was said to have intended to put them aboard a train.
The reason why the PP government immediately blamed ETA for this is clear, though. They wanted to create a mood of hysteria in which reactionary legislation could be rushed through. I am just not sure what that reactionary legislation is at the moment. He also stirs up anti Basque feeling "We will defeat them... We will succeed in finishing off the terrorist band, with the strength of the rule of law and with the unity of all Spaniards." I dissagree with you Sethomas when you says that all Basque people are 'assholes', or terrorists. Not even all of ETA are terrorists.
Aznar has ruled out negotiations with ETA. He has banned Batasuna. Now he says: "There are no negotiations possible or desirable with these assassins that have so often sown death through all of Spain."
I am leaning towards Al Qaeda myself, although no one can be sure. If so, in addition to the perpitrators of this crime there are others who are responsible: George W. Bush, Tony Blair and Jose Maria Aznar. These are the men who, in launching the so called "war on terror" have stirred up instability throughout the Middle East and acted as the most effective recruiting agents for terrorism.
The latest atrocity demonstrates very clearly the complete failure of the "war on terror".
Brandon
Mar 12th, 2004, 09:03 PM
I am leaning towards Al Qaeda myself, although no one can be sure. If so, in addition to the perpitrators of this crime there are others who are responsible: George W. Bush, Tony Blair and Jose Maria Aznar. These are the men who, in launching the so called "war on terror" have stirred up instability throughout the Middle East and acted as the most effective recruiting agents for terrorism.
Yes, because nothing must deter the far left from its focus on who the real villain is: the big, evil United States. :rolleyes
Zhukov
Mar 12th, 2004, 09:20 PM
Yes Brandon, because it is so far fetched to say that if it is Al Qaeda, then without G.W and Blair attacking Iraq, it wouldn't have happenend. :rolleyes Al Qaeda have never realy been big in mainland Europe, and I am sure they would have had better things to do than attack Spain.
I never said it was the "big, evil" USA, I mentioned three names. I have never said that the USA is evil, so don't try to make me seem like some kind of crazed nut job.
thebiggameover
Mar 12th, 2004, 09:24 PM
The latest atrocity demonstrates very clearly the complete failure of the "war on terror".
EDIT: the image came out like crap when i posted it. here is the link to what i tried to post...
http://mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/images/war.008.gif
Jeanette X
Mar 12th, 2004, 09:54 PM
It doesn't make sense. If it was Al-Queda, why would they target Spain in particular?
Emu
Mar 12th, 2004, 10:01 PM
To fool us. That's why.
Zhukov
Mar 12th, 2004, 10:07 PM
If it was Al-Queda, why would they target Spain in particular?
Spain joined the UK/US in Iraq. Al Qaeda may have hated Saddam, but they want the Iraqi people on their side.
They are trying to tell Spainish people "is being in Iraq worth turning your country into a combat zone."
Another mistake on my behalf: It wasn't ETA's "political wing" that blamed "the Arab resistance", it was leader of the banned Basque freedom party Batasuna, Arnaldo Otegi, who also denied Basque involvement.
"The Basque pro-independence left wishes to express the most absolute rejection of what happened today in Madrid. Indiscriminate actions against civilians, against workers... are absolutely and firmly rejected."
davinxtk
Mar 12th, 2004, 10:32 PM
...but they want the Iraqi people on their side.
In case you hadn't noticed, they still are.
It wasn't Al-Qaeda, though.
Unless the republicans say it is, and then it's time for another war, right?
mesobe
Mar 12th, 2004, 10:36 PM
hell yeah! the spanish people NEED the americans to protect them!! quick! BOMB SPAIN NOW!!
Emu
Mar 12th, 2004, 10:39 PM
Who's it gonna be next? Pakistan? Iran? And then when North Korea bombs us, will we attack Saudi Arabia?
Anonymouse
Mar 12th, 2004, 11:29 PM
None of you no so sit tight, and whatever "information" you recieve is government and media filtered.
Brandon
Mar 12th, 2004, 11:46 PM
Yes Brandon, because it is so far fetched to say that if it is Al Qaeda, then without G.W and Blair attacking Iraq, it wouldn't have happenend. :rolleyes Al Qaeda have never realy been big in mainland Europe, and I am sure they would have had better things to do than attack Spain.
I never said it was the "big, evil" USA, I mentioned three names. I have never said that the USA is evil, so don't try to make me seem like some kind of crazed nut job.
Well honestly, Zhukov, I'm getting a little tired of hearing the same lines from the extreme left every time something related to terrorism happens:
"YOU KNOW, IF IT HADN'T BEEN FOR THE FASCISM OF BUSH AND BLAIR, THIS SHIT WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED."
I personally didn't agree with the Iraq war. I also don't agree with a foreign policy based on military bullying. But despite my feelings on those issues, I still don't believe that it's fair to place Bush and Blair in the same category as terrorists or hold the two of them "responsible" for these kinds of atrocities. The liberal rhetoric is getting old; just as old as its conservative counterpart.
El Blanco
Mar 13th, 2004, 01:56 AM
AB, don't feed the Zhukov. These aren't his thoughts. He is just going to spit out rhetoric and try and spin it off into a thousand directions so he won't have to actually argue his point. And a handful of cheerleaders wil jump at any chance to say how much better they are than Americans.
But, why Spain if it is AQ? Doesn't Spain have a top notch counter terror team and national police force? And they certainly weren't the most prolific members of the coalition.
Why not Athens or Prague ? If you want to make a real statement, why not London? Not that I wish this upon anyone, I am just trying to see the strategy here.
As for calling the War on Terror a flop, this is not going to be quick and clean. The WoT is a flop when people see these attacks and let the fear run their lives.
My prayers go to the victims and families and hopefully we can catch those responsible to make sure no one else has to go through this hell.
Abcdxxxx
Mar 13th, 2004, 02:32 AM
ETA and Al Qaeda were reported to be working together on a multi-bombing attack on the EU around two years back. Could be this was the result. Seems like there was Al Qaeda type support at the very least.
Might not be a bad time to get out your "poetry of suicide bombing" text book.
Zhukov
Mar 13th, 2004, 08:52 AM
Well honestly, Zhukov, I'm getting a little tired of hearing the same lines from the extreme left every time something related to terrorism happens:
"YOU KNOW, IF IT HADN'T BEEN FOR THE FASCISM OF BUSH AND BLAIR, THIS SHIT WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED."
You are overeacting, it's not like you turn on the TV and you are bombarded with communist run news programs.
If you do hear the 'same old thing' regarding terrorism, then it is not from me. I kept my mouth mostly shut during the attacks in Istanbul. I don't post things about terror is Nepal, do I? You are trying to make me look stupid with things that I didn't say, again. I don't throw around the term fascist when describing Bush and co, there are people on this board that relate things to 'fascist' alot, but not me. There is no reason to go ape shit at me.
Surely I have the right to post my thoughts or theories here and see what people think, other than "I'm tired of hearing this." Could you fathom for a second that maybe it was Al Qaeda that was responsible? If so, why was Spain a target?
I still don't believe that it's fair to place Bush and Blair in the same category as terrorists or hold the two of them "responsible" for these kinds of atrocities.
I hold the the US/UK/ESP trio responsible for making Spain a target for Al Qaeda. Osama asked for an attack against Spain in his last communication, didn't he? I hold Al Qaeda or ETA responsible for the atrocities in Madrid.
I am leaning towards thinking that it was not ETA but Al Qaeda. Of course, I do not know, and it would be stupid at this point to say I did know for sure. Nor can I say that there is only a small chance that ETA did it, there is a very real chance. But if it was Al Qaeda, then I can be sure in saying that Spain has been turned into a target for Islamic terrorists by the actions of Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar. He dragged Spain into Iraq against the peoples wishes, and they seem to have paid the unfair price. Individual terrorism gives the excuse for state terrorism and vice versa. Tony Blair immediately used this to justify the "war against terror". Soon George Bush will add his voice to the chorus. Aznar will do the same.
I didn't focus on ETA because I am sure nobody wants to hear my thoughts on terrorism and it's relations to bourgeois state and independent class policy in Spain. I am even more sure than no one wants to hear my views on why ETA does what it does, both terrorism and Basque nationalism. I thought that maybe people might actualy read how Spain is linked to Iraq, and Iraq is recently linked to Al Qaeda, and now Al Qaeda could be linked to Spain. It doesn't take any knowledge of hitorical materialism to see how they add up.
AB, don't feed the Zhukov. These aren't his thoughts. He is just going to spit out rhetoric and try and spin it off into a thousand directions so he won't have to actually argue his point.
Of course these are my thoughts. Where are yours? Which particular things that I have said are rhetoric? How have I spun them out in a thousand different ways?
What do you want me to say? "The war on terror is lost if we give in to the terrorists! I hope they catch those who are responsible! I am praying to the families!"
ETA and Al Qaeda were reported to be working together on a multi-bombing attack on the EU around two years back. Could be this was the result.
That sounds like it could be correct.
Brandon
Mar 13th, 2004, 01:55 PM
Well I'm sorry if it sounded like I was attacking you in particular, Zhukov. You just happened to be the first person here to swoop down and point a finger at Bush and Blair.
At any rate, al Qaeda might not be responsible after all:
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=IA16604
The text of this statement includes linguistic usages and concepts that are incompatible with or alien to authentic Al-Qa'ida writings by Osama bin Laden, Dr. Ayman Al-Zawahiri, and others. The following are some examples, in order of appearance:
1. Following the Qur'an verses is the title "The Trains of Death Operation." This is uncommon in bin Laden's writing. Also, it is noteworthy that the phrase "Trains of Death" is not reiterated in the text as the name of the operation.
2. "Settling old accounts," both as a linguistic form and as a concept, is alien to authentic Al-Qa'ida writings.
3. The use of the concept of "agents" is taken from the vocabulary of nationalist ideology, while bin Laden and his followers relate to their enemies primarily as infidels.
4. The phrase "but you did not get the message" is not one used by bin Laden, who does not cast his operations in the light of "messages," rather, as acts in and of themselves to further the goals of Al-Qa'ida for the sake of Allah. Thus, it follows that:
5. The concept of conditionality, as in the statement "And if you renounce [fighting us], we too will stop fighting you" is not a bin Laden concept.
6. The term "The Tyrant of the Generation" was used in the previous statement of alleged responsibility by the Abu Hafs Al-Masri Brigades, for the August 2003 U.S. blackout – which was caused by a large-scale technical failure.
7. In authentic Al-Qa'ida writings, the September 11 attacks are not referred to as "events" but as "raids" (the early Islamic term ghazwah).
8. The announcement of an operation to begin at "4515 S.B." or reference to an operation that is "90% completed" is alien to bin Laden's scholarly Islamist style.
Thus, this statement does not seem to be an authentic Al-Qa'ida document.
Who knows?
derrida
Mar 13th, 2004, 04:06 PM
Has anyoe mentioned the possibility that the bombing was carried out by fascist elements within Spain- esp. considering the upcoming elections-?
Ant10708
Mar 13th, 2004, 04:38 PM
No because it seems too unlikely.
Brandon
Mar 13th, 2004, 09:52 PM
There's a tape now, apparently.
The videotape, released by Interior Minister Angel Acebes, says: "We declare our responsibility for what occurred in Madrid, just 2.5 years after the attacks in New York and Washington.
"It is a response to your collaboration with the criminals [U.S. President] Bush and his allies. This is a response to the crimes that you have caused in the world and specifically in Iraq and in Afghanistan. And there will be more, God willing. This is a message from the military spokesman for al Qaeda in Europe."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/13/spain.blasts/index.html
Abcdxxxx
Mar 14th, 2004, 05:15 AM
In answer to the whole "why would Al Qaeda do it?" question :
Muslim Al Qaeda types believe that Spain is lost Arab territory, the land of the lost Arab state of the Halifat of Kordova, which crumbled in 1492 as a result of the fall of Grenda. There's a huge movement within the Muslim fundamentalist communities to become a presence in the EU, and there's plenty of motivation beyond some lazy American logic wrapped around the typical "they hate us, see what we caused" theories.
As for the Basque seperatist movement: The Basque were around before the Romans. They're one of the most ancient nations, with an individual culture, language and longer history then most, surviving next to the Celts, the Ghals of Ireland, Welsh and Britany. Unlike the popular Palestinian movement, they can at least point to an exact time of autonomy even if it was 2500 years ago. While ETA has always done their fair share of bombings, a younger crop of members have made moves to adopt more violent PLO/IRA tactics.
Zhukov
Mar 14th, 2004, 10:07 AM
I try very hard to keep a cap on my propoganda, and I don't want to be accused of making cheap political gain out of what happened in Spain. However, as horrific as the attacks were there is nothing wrong with looking at why they happened. I am passionate about these Spanish attacks, so I am sorry if I have gone too far.
While ETA has always done their fair share of bombings, a younger crop of members have made moves to adopt more violent PLO/IRA tactics.
You are exactly right. The increase in arrests in recent years has caused younger and more radical replacements. I think there will be an eventual split in ETA. One wing looking for a way out of counterproductive terrorism and another wing looking to increase militarist tactics in the hope that this will have the desired effect. I have been told by my comrades in Esker Marxista (Basque Country) have had their fair share of ex-ETA's signing up in recent years.
Maybe this is why ETA have not released a statement, as the new extreme-extremists are reluctant to condemn the Madrid bombing, even if they were not responsible for it, because they are planning something similar.
On the other hand, it could still be the more militaristic who are responsible. ETA may not usualy carry out such attacks, but Madrid could be the first sign of an increase.
The Popular Party may be holding of any imformation they have for fear of losing the elections.
Edit: Spelling
Abcdxxxx
Mar 14th, 2004, 02:31 PM
ETA sometimes take up to a year before claiming responsibility, but with an election today (Sunday) it's unlikely they wouldn't take advantage of sending their message clearly. ETA have always worked in a different style altogether, and always call in a warning to evacuate civilians before their bombings. It's unlikely ETA would have gone to such great lengths to do this, and then frame Al Qaeda at the same time.
I think you're missing my point, Zuhkov. It's not the crack down on ETA that's inspired a new extremist wing of the organization, as much as it's inspiration from the success of the Palestinian movement.
El Blanco
Mar 14th, 2004, 10:54 PM
Can you really say that the violent attacks are a victory in Palestine? After any bombing, the Israelis come back and damn near obliterate a town. The only real progress has come from peace agreements overseen by American and European countries, the very people AQ wants to wipe from the face of the Earth.
Zhukov
Mar 14th, 2004, 11:56 PM
I'm not saying that the arrests have toughenend up ETA, I'm saying that the new blood are looking for alternatives to what has been unsuccesful early 20th Century style terrorism.
WAIT A SECOND! What is this?
MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- In a dramatic rebuff to the ruling conservative Popular Party, Spain's Socialists have claimed victory in Sunday's national elections.
With more than 90 percent of the vote counted, the Socialist Workers Party is on track to win 163 seats in the country's 350-seat parliament, just shy of an absolute majority.
The ruling conservative Popular Party is tipped to win 149 seats.
The Socialists so far have won 43.01 percent of the total vote, ending eight years of conservative rule.
The Socialist Party's leader José Luis Rodriguez Zapatero has appeared live on Spanish television to claim victory, saying his party was now in a position to form government.
The chief spokesman for Spain's ruling Partido Popular Party has congratulated the Socialist Party as the winner of the national elections.
The government will collaborate in the transition of power, said Eduardo Zaplana, who is also a Cabinet minister, in a nationally televised address.
Turnout was high at 76 percent with voters seeming to expressd anger with the government, accusing it of provoking the Madrid attacks by supporting the U.S.-led war in Iraq, which most Spaniards opposed.
Spain's general election was thrown wide open by a reported al Qaeda claim that it was responsible for Thursday's Madrid train bombings to punish the government for supporting the Iraq war.
Before Thursday, the Popular Party had been favored to win by a comfortable margin, making its leader, Mariano Rajoy, the prime minister. Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar chose not to run for a third term.
Polling booths opened at 9 a.m. Sunday amid claims that Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's government possibly withheld information from the public about who was behind the terror attack that killed 200 people and injured 1,500 more.
Saturday night several thousand demonstrators chanted and waved signs in front of the Popular Party headquarters in Madrid and other cities, demanding the truth about who carried out the bombing and criticizing the government.
Ministers had initially blamed the Basque separatist group ETA, but as evidence mounted of an Islamic link, officials were forced to revise this position.
Callers in the name of ETA have meanwhile issued media statements denying any role in the bombings.
"No more cover-ups," read one banner carried by the protesters.
Many of the millions who rallied for peace on Friday across Spain said they felt Aznar had provoked the attacks by backing the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, according to The Associated Press.
The majority of Spaniards, including Zapatero, opposed the war. No Spaniards participated in the invasion of Iraq but Aznar later sent 1,300 peacekeeping troops.
Officials meanwhile said on Sunday they had been unable to identify the purported al Qaeda military spokesman who had claimed responsibility on a videotape for the bombings. (Full story)
The tape was recovered by police from a waste paper bin near the capital on Saturday.
On the video, the man, described as Abu Dujan al Afgani, is reported to have said the group blew up the Madrid trains in retaliation for Spanish cooperation with Washington's war on terror and the conflict in Iraq. CNN has not seen the tape.
Interior Minister Angel Acebes said Sunday police would continue to hold five men -- three Moroccans and two Indians -- arrested on Saturday under anti-terrorist laws. One of the five men has been linked to the alleged ringleader of al Qaeda in Spain. (Full story)
The attacks struck four commuter trains Thursday morning. Ten backpack bombs exploded. But an unexploded pack contained clues -- the explosive ECO, made in Spain, combined with metal pieces intended to multiply its destructive effect, with a detonator and a mobile telephone.
The investigation started by focusing on ETA, Acebes said, but broadened with the discovery of the unexploded backpack and a van containing seven detonators and a tape of Koranic verses in Arabic.
The van was found shortly after the attacks, in the eastern suburb of Alcala de Henares, located on the same commuter line that was attacked.
Ten bombs exploded on four trains in three stations.
The private Spanish radio station, Cadena SER -- which has connections to the Socialists -- reported Saturday that sources in the Spanish intelligence agency said they were "99 percent sure" Thursday's attacks were carried out by Islamic extremists who probably fled the country immediately after the attacks.
The Socialists, which have pledged to bring home Spanish troops from Iraq if they win Sunday, would benefit if al Qaeda or another Islamic group were found to be responsible because of their opposition to the war, analysts said.
Aznar is not seeking a third term, complying with a pledge he made years ago not to seek a third four-year term. Former interior minister Mariano Rajoy is the Popular Party's candidate for prime minister.
Candidates are competing for seats in the nation's lower and upper houses of parliament.
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/14/spain.blasts.election/index.html
Democratic Socialists don't get me bed-wetting excited, but it is still good. Spanish troops out of Iraq it looks like, that weakens Blair for sure, and maybe Bush.
Now to throw out the other two!
Abcdxxxx
Mar 15th, 2004, 03:21 AM
Can you really say that the violent attacks are a victory in Palestine?
I can say that without violent attacks you wouldn't be giving two shits about Palestinians, just the same nobody was talking about Basque seperatists a week ago, and just the same way you're not taking up the cause of Chicanos in Texas or Sub-Saharans in Morroco. There wouldn't be film festivals, lecture panels, etc. etc. all devoted to the Palestinian cause.
After any bombing, the Israelis come back and damn near obliterate a town.
Some would say that's a victory as well, baiting Israel into a war, and into strong arm retaliation tactics. Israel never obliterated any towns, unless you're still believing that the six houses of Jenin constituted an entire town. How do you expect even a socialist Spain to react if the ETA started bombing daily?
The only real progress has come from peace agreements overseen by American and European countries, the very people AQ wants to wipe from the face of the Earth.
Okay Al Qaeda want the US and EU gone. Agreed. Taking up seperatist causes and supporting them has always been a bin Laden game plan. In interviews he spoke of civil wars, right?
What specific progress has come of peace agreements in the past 20 years? I mean which peace agreements are you refering too? With all the EU funding of the PA, and energy spent discussing possible agreements that never made it to the table, what have they done to settle Basque situation?
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