Palestinians try to use a retarded boy to blow up ........

[Ronnie Raygun]

......a few Israeli soldiers along with about 100 or so innocent palestinians.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040324/D81GUJ3O0.html


HAWARA CHECKPOINT, West Bank (AP) - A 16-year-old Palestinian with a suicide bomb vest strapped to his body was caught at a crowded West Bank checkpoint Wednesday, setting off a tense encounter with Israeli soldiers whom the army said he was sent to kill.

The soldiers, taking cover behind concrete barriers, sent a yellow army robot to bring scissors to the teenager so he could cut off the vest. They then made him strip to his underwear to ensure he was unarmed before detaining him.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the latest in a series of foiled attacks on Israel by Palestinian youths.

The family of the teenager, identified as Hussam Abdo, said he was gullible and easily manipulated.

"He doesn't know anything, and he has the intelligence of a 12 year old," said his brother, Hosni.

Since the Israeli assassination of Hamas spiritual leader Sheik Ahmed Yassin on Monday, Israel has been on high alert. Hamas has killed hundreds of Israelis in suicide bombings and other attacks in recent years.

Wednesday's confrontation began about 4 p.m. when soldiers at the Hawara checkpoint outside Nablus received intelligence a bomber was there. They shut down the crossing and began searching hundreds of people there, the military said.

Suddenly Abdo, wearing an oversized red jersey, approached them.

"We saw that he had something under his shirt," said Lt. Tamir Milrad. The soldiers took cover behind concrete barricades, pointed their guns at the teenager and ordered him to stop.

On their orders, he took off his jersey, revealing a bulky gray bomb vest.

"He told us he didn't want to die. He didn't want to blow up," Milrad said.

The soldiers sent a small robot to hand Abdo scissors to cut off the vest, an incident captured in exclusive Associated Press Television News footage.

The teenager cut off part of the vest and struggled with the rest. "I don't how to get this off," he said in frustration before successfully removing it.

Soldiers ordered him to take off his undershirt and pull down his jeans to make sure he had no other weapons. Then they arrested him.

Sappers blew up the vest, which the army said was an 18-pound bomb.

The military said Abdo's mission was to kill soldiers at the crowded checkpoint.

"In addition to the fact that he would have harmed my soldiers, he would have also harmed the Palestinians waiting at the checkpoint, and there were 200 to 300 innocent Palestinians there," said the commander of the checkpoint, who identified himself only as Lt. Col. Guy.

Several teenagers have carried out suicide bombings over the past 3 1/2 years, and there has been recent concern that militant groups were turning to younger attackers to elude Israeli security checks.

Abdo, though 16, looked far younger, and the Israeli military initially said it believed he was 10 years old.

On March 16, Israeli troops stopped an 11-year-old boy allegedly trying to smuggle explosives through the same checkpoint. Israel said militants had given the boy the explosives without his knowledge, either to ferry across the checkpoint or to be blown up by remote control when he got near soldiers.

Palestinians and the boy disputed this, claiming the bag he was carrying - which was blown up by army sappers - contained auto parts.

Last month, Israeli police arrested three boys, aged 12, 13 and 15, who said they were on their way to carry out a shooting attack in Israel.

"No matter how many times Israel learns of the use of children for suicide bombings, it is shocking on each occasion," said Dore Gold, an adviser to Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. "Israelis do not understand how Palestinians are willing to sacrifice their own children in order to kill ours."

Physicians for Human Rights also condemned the militants' use of children, calling it "illegal and immoral."

After the incident Wednesday, the army brought out Abdo, who appeared shaken but defiant, to be photographed by the media. Reporters were allowed only to ask his name, age and grade.

Maj. Sharon Feingold, an army spokeswoman, said reporters were not allowed to question the youth "for intelligence reasons." An inquiry was under way, she said, "to find out who sent this boy and why they did it. Naturally this a monstrous doing of evil people, sending young children and turning them into human bombs. It's horrid and terribly worrisome."

Abdo's family said the teenager was not affiliated with any militant group, going to rallies for all of them and identifying with whichever one carried out the latest attack on Israelis.

They said he acted strangely Tuesday, giving candy to his family and neighbors and refusing to explain why.

He got his hair cut in the style his mother, Tamam, likes and told her he would do anything she wants, she said.

"You never are like this," she said "What happened?"

"I just want you to be happy with me," he responded.

Abdo left his house Wednesday morning saying he was going to school, but never arrived there.

Hosni Abdo said he was furious with whoever persuaded his brother to strap on the bomb vest.

"The ones who sent him are stupid, because the army will give him two slaps and he will tell them who sent him," Hosni Abdo said.

[Ronnie Raygun]

Apparently this poor kid did it for $23.00.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/408359.html

Last Update: 25/03/2004 02:29

Palestinian boy, 14, got NIS 100 to blow up at IDF roadblock

By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent, Haaretz Service and AP



Israel Defense Forces paratroopers caught a Palestinian boy aged 14 wearing an explosive belt at the Hawara roadblock, south of Nablus, in the West Bank on Wednesday afternoon.




Sappers used a remote-controlled robot to pass scissors to the boy, Hussam Abdu from Nablus, so that he could cut the explosive belt off his body, and then safely detonated it in a controlled explosion.

Abdu, who was taken in for questioning, said that he received NIS 100 to carry out a suicide attack.

The IDF believes that Abdu was meant to detonate the 8 kg belt near the soldiers or close to the nearby army base.

A Tanzim cell from the Balata refugee camp in Nablus took responsibility for sending the boy.

Abdu told soldiers of his dream of receiving 72 virgins in heaven, which his dispatchers had promised him, and said that he had been tempted by the promise of sexual relations with the virgins. He said that he had been bullied at school for his poor academic performance and that he had wanted "to be a hero."

The commander of the Paratroopers Brigade, Lieutenant Colonel "Guy," told Haaretz that the boy was apparently instructed to set off the explosives he was wearing among the soldiers.

It appears that he was afraid to detonate the bomb at the site, as he was surrounded by Palestinians and the soldiers were too far away. Lieutenant Colonel "Guy" added that the "level of awareness" of the soldiers prevented a serious terrorist attack.

The family of the boy said that he was gullible. "He doesn't know anything," his brother, Hosni, said.

In a statement, the Israel branch of Physicians for Human Rights condemned the Palestinian militants for sending the teenager on a bombing mission.

The statement said, "Adults should cease to exploit children by making them take part in such acts." The Israeli branch of the physicians group often issues protests about Israel's practices in the territories.

Soldiers at the checkpoint said they had received intelligence that there was an imminent attack planned there, shut down the crossing and began searching people there.

Suddenly the boy, wearing an oversized red jersey, approached them in a suspicious way, said an officer at the checkpoint.

"We saw that he had something under his shirt," he said. The soldiers dove behind concrete barricades, pointed their guns at him and told him to stop.

They ordered him to take off his jersey, revealing a large gray bomb vest underneath. "He told us he didn't want to die. He didn't want to blow up," the officer said.

The soldiers then sent the robot to hand the scissors to the boy. He cut off part of the vest and struggled with the rest. "I don't how to get this off," Abdu called to the soldiers.

After he dropped the vest, soldiers ordered him to take off his undershirt and jeans, to ensure he had no other weapons on him.

"This is another horrific example of how the Palestinians use their own children to spread terror against Israelis," David Baker, an official in the prime minister's office, said in response.

"These children are turned into human time-bombs for the purpose of spreading as much terror against Israelis as possible," Baker added.

Abdu's mother voiced astonishment at the incident.

"Hussam left home this morning to school, and this was the first we hear of what happened," Tamam Abdu told Reuters from the family home in Nablus, just north of Hawara. "This is shocking. To use a child like this is irresponsible, forbidden."

Just last week, soldiers found an explosive charge on a cart pushed by a 10-year-old Palestinian boy at the same roadblock.

The soldiers released the boy after it transpired that he did not know what was in the bag he was carrying through the barricade.

Late Wednesday, several Israeli tanks moved back into an area of the Khan Yunis refugee camp in the southern Gaza Strip, residents said.

Military sources, speaking on condition of anonymity, said it was a similar, limited operation to one the day before in which some structures were razed.

4 soldiers, 8 Palestinians hurt in territories
An IDF soldier was lightly wounded in a shooting attack near the Gaza Strip settlement of Gadid. Israeli troops returned fire.

Two Israeli soldiers were lightly wounded by Palestinian stone-throwers in two separate incidents in the West Bank at the Zif junction south of Hebron and further north near Elon Moreh. A third soldier was wounded in an incident in the village of Budrus near the Green Line west of Ramallah.

Eight Palestinian residents of Hebron were wounded Wednesday afternoon in violent clashes with Israeli security forces, Itim quoted Palestinian sources as having reported.

The clashes broke out when Palestinians began throwing stones and firebombs at Israeli troops stationed in Hebron's Old City.

Also in the territories on Wednesday, Palestinian gunmen opened fire on IDF troops west of Ramallah and near Netzarim in the central Gaza Strip. No casualties or damage were reported in either incident and troops returned fire.

IDF troops on Tuesday night foiled an attempt by two Palestinian militants to infiltrate into the settlement of Morag in the southern Strip.

The soldiers spotted an armed Palestinian approaching the settlement and opened fire. After the area was searched in the morning hours Wednesday, two bodies of armed Palestinians were discovered. No Israelis were wounded in the incident.

According to defense establishment figures, since the beginning of the intifada, there have been 29 Palestinians under the age of 18 who carried out suicide attacks, and 22 others under 18 who carried out "sacrificial attacks" - in which they opened fire and were killed - in the territories. Forty others under 18 were arrested on suspicion of intending to carry out attacks.

[Brandon]

Still waiting for the Islamic Gandhi.

[Jeanette X]

The intelligence of a 12-year old? Most 12 year olds would know better than to something like that.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Still waiting for the Islamic Gandhi.

Wow you're a tool. Do you even know any muslims, or do you just speculate on them from afar in the suburb you live in...?

The people who put this kid up to this are clearly horrible and rotten. These horrible and rotten people are also hardly indicative of all muslims and/or palestinians.

[El Blanco]

There were also Hindus of the the same nature back in Ghandi's day. Where are the Arabs standing up for peace out there?

On a lighter and far more demented note, did anyone else get a fucked up mental image of this poor kid after watching tonight's South Park?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I'm glad it was you who said it and not me.......

[Brandon]

Still waiting for the Islamic Gandhi.

Wow you're a tool. Do you even know any muslims, or do you just speculate on them from afar in the suburb you live in...?

The people who put this kid up to this are clearly horrible and rotten. These horrible and rotten people are also hardly indicative of all muslims and/or palestinians.
I think if the Palestinians laid down their arms, sat down in the streets and stopped eating they'd win the day as surely as Ghandi did. I wish they would, I wish they could see how much they had to gain. That kind of a cultural seea change would take an Ilsamic Ghandi, and someone would almost certainly kill him, but it's not impossible.
Just a reminder, Kev.

[ScruU2wice]

[editted because it was stupid]

But yeah it's a pretty sick world when they get a 12 year old kid to blow himself up by convincing him that he'll be picking up the chicks in heaven.

[Abcdxxxx]

The people who put this kid up to this are clearly horrible and rotten. These horrible and rotten people are also hardly indicative of all muslims and/or palestinians.

I agree. Where can I join up alongside the Muslims and Palestinians that deplore such child abuse, guerilla youth camp training, and condemn suicide bombings? I don't mean the ones who shift the blame on Americans and Israelis, I mean the ones who blame the ones writing and cashing a check for $23.00! Is there a Muslims against the Intifada organization? Even if 80% of Palestinians (supposedly) support suicide bombings, where are the other 20% hanging out ?

[DamnthatDavid]

I swear, that religion is one of the most fucked up things, right up their with the Mormon's "I lost 2 Golden Tablets sent by God."

Cowards using children. Bah... And they have the guts to call us the Western Satans.

[Cosmo Electrolux]

fundamentalism of any type is dangerous...christian, muslim, hindu...they're all subhuman trash.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I think if the Palestinians laid down their arms, sat down in the streets and stopped eating they'd win the day as surely as Ghandi did. I wish they would, I wish they could see how much they had to gain. That kind of a cultural seea change would take an Ilsamic Ghandi, and someone would almost certainly kill him, but it's not impossible.
Just a reminder, Kev.

Thanks for an entirely irrelevant reminder. It's not as if Max is the first person to say this. It has almost become a cliche...

My response was directed at your snide and uninformed commentary on it. You use a small sect of murderers to demonize an entire people and religion. Yes, Islam as a whole has been, in a sense, hijacked by radicals. But muslim nations have not only been hijacked by radical Islam, but also governmental corruption, tyrany, oppression, and greed. It's not merely coincidental that many of the more liberal muslims you'll likely meet happen to live in liberal democracies, or at the very least more open and free societies.

p.s.-- you can read the articled linked below, too.

I agree. Where can I join up alongside the Muslims and Palestinians that deplore such child abuse, guerilla youth camp training, and condemn suicide bombings? I don't mean the ones who shift the blame on Americans and Israelis, I mean the ones who blame the ones writing and cashing a check for $23.00! Is there a Muslims against the Intifada organization? Even if 80% of Palestinians (supposedly) support suicide bombings, where are the other 20% hanging out ?


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=4&u=/ap/20040325/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

[mburbank]

Thanks, Kev.

Brandon, fundamentalist Hinduhs can be a pretty savage lot. They are prticularly fond of setting people on fire. Somehow Ghandi came. You say you are waiting for the Palestinain Ghandi cynically, as if it;s impossible. I actively pray for the arrival of a Palestinain Ghandi, and I don't think it's impossible at all.

Now, that being said, I'm going to go out on a limb here. Tarring and feathering all terrorists with the brush of using a retarded kid as a bomb is outrageous. I'm certain that most sucicde bombers deplore the use of retarded children, and most terrorists deplore this vile act. Why do I think this? Simple. Since I think the Israelis play some role in the conflict I'm forced to be actively pro terrorist. In fact, secretly, I think it's great they tried to use a retarded kid as a bomb and I'm just sorry it didn't work, but I'm ashamed to admit it. Why? becuase having a nuanced view of anything is pretty much impossible, and when it does happen it's loathsome.

Listen, this is how the world works: There's good guys, who are always right and admirable and everything they do is acceptable up to and including accidentally blowing little kids to bits when their shooting at other people. Then there are bad guys and everything they do is wrong and if they do anything that looks right, like forming a peace organization, it's just a dirty trick to fool you. Since I feel the Israelis could do a better job, I plainly am on the side of evil and what I really mean is that I favor the forces of darkness and want the world to be overun by demons as soon as possible. I particularly look forward to the day I feast on Naldo's still living flesh.


APEASEMENT NOW. APEASMENT FOREVER! GOOOOOOO TERRORISTS!

[mburbank]

Thanks, Kev.

Brandon, fundamentalist Hinduhs can be a pretty savage lot. They are prticularly fond of setting people on fire. Somehow Ghandi came. You say you are waiting for the Palestinain Ghandi cynically, as if it;s impossible. I actively pray for the arrival of a Palestinain Ghandi, and I don't think it's impossible at all.

Now, that being said, I'm going to go out on a limb here. Tarring and feathering all terrorists with the brush of using a retarded kid as a bomb is outrageous. I'm certain that most sucicde bombers deplore the use of retarded children, and most terrorists deplore this vile act. Why do I think this? Simple. Since I think the Israelis play some role in the conflict I'm forced to be actively pro terrorist. In fact, secretly, I think it's great they tried to use a retarded kid as a bomb and I'm just sorry it didn't work, but I'm ashamed to admit it. Why? becuase having a nuanced view of anything is pretty much impossible, and when it does happen it's loathsome.

Listen, this is how the world works: There's good guys, who are always right and admirable and everything they do is acceptable up to and including accidentally blowing little kids to bits when their shooting at other people. Then there are bad guys and everything they do is wrong and if they do anything that looks right, like forming a peace organization, it's just a dirty trick to fool you. Since I feel the Israelis could do a better job, I plainly am on the side of evil and what I really mean is that I favor the forces of darkness and want the world to be overun by demons as soon as possible. I particularly look forward to the day I feast on Naldo's still living flesh.


APEASEMENT NOW. APEASMENT FOREVER! GOOOOOOO TERRORISTS!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

:lol

[Brandon]

My response was directed at your snide and uninformed commentary on it. You use a small sect of murderers to demonize an entire people and religion.
Nice straw man.

Listen, this is how the world works: There's good guys, who are always right and admirable and everything they do is acceptable up to and including accidentally blowing little kids to bits when their shooting at other people. Then there are bad guys and everything they do is wrong and if they do anything that looks right, like forming a peace organization, it's just a dirty trick to fool you. Since I feel the Israelis could do a better job, I plainly am on the side of evil and what I really mean is that I favor the forces of darkness and want the world to be overun by demons as soon as possible. I particularly look forward to the day I feast on Naldo's still living flesh.
I think this situation has moved beyond "good guys" and "bad guys" to an "us" and "them" scenario. It sounds so fucking noble and enlightened to say that Israel isn't trying hard enough to create peace, but they're the only ones who seem to recognize that these extremists, no matter how many negotiations are made, no matter how much pressure is placed on them by their more moderate companions, will never cease to attempt a violent overthrow of Israel. It's about self-preservation. Call them hawks if you like, but then, you've never dealt with many suicide bombings up there in Salem now, have you?

And why do I support Israel in this brawl? Because they represent democracy in the fight against totalitarianism, fundamentalism, and theocracy. In short, they're the American equivalent in the Middle East.

[mburbank]

Jump Back Brandon.

I haven't experienced terrorism in Salem. I'm sorry if I in some way implied I had. If you've experienced it 'up your ass' (your stated location) than I certainly bow to your experience of terrorism, though that doesn't mean I have to embrace your conclusions.

Go to my road map to peace thread and weigh in. I'm not sure what you think Israel should do. If you honestly believe (and lots of people do in every war) that it's 'us' and 'them', why not favor a final solution and endorse the erradication or forced removal of the palestinians? And if you don't endorse that, what do you endorse?

Just as I support America but don't endorse it's current government, I can and do support the existence of Israel, but not it's current leaders or policies. There are Jews in Israel who feel the same way, a significant minority perhaps, but perfectly legitimate.

I don't believe in killing people. I'm sorry, I don't. Would that say to you that I support terrorism? What with their killing people and all? I'll tell you what, though, firing rocket from a helicopter into an apartment building is pretty damn terrifying. Warfare is about terrorism. If you insist that I pick the side I think is less to blame, less evil, I pick Israel. If God said to me, hey, everyone on one side has to die or this will never end, I'd pick the Palestinians, right after I pointed out what fucked up God a choice like that made him. That is precisely why I feel Israel is obliged to do the bulk of the work here. BECAUSE they are less evil, BECAUSE they are more sane.

But we're going round in circles. Go to the other thread and weigh in, even if it's just to say Status quo, eye for an eye till everybodies blind. I think that's a hopeless dead end, and maybe it isn't what you're suggesting, but I don't know what you or bcdxxertsreytra, are suggesting.

And untwist your knickers. I like you, I have no problem with you having a different opinion, and I'm talking to you reasonably.

[ScruU2wice]

Ok, from what i read i didn't think that the kid was mentally challenge, i thought Ronnie just said that to emphasize how stupid the kid was. So is the kid actually mentally handicapped or just stupid, i can't tell anymore :(

[Ronnie Raygun]

"I think this situation has moved beyond "good guys" and "bad guys" to an "us" and "them" scenario. It sounds so fucking noble and enlightened to say that Israel isn't trying hard enough to create peace, but they're the only ones who seem to recognize that these extremists, no matter how many negotiations are made, no matter how much pressure is placed on them by their more moderate companions, will never cease to attempt a violent overthrow of Israel. It's about self-preservation. Call them hawks if you like, but then, you've never dealt with many suicide bombings up there in Salem now, have you?

And why do I support Israel in this brawl? Because they represent democracy in the fight against totalitarianism, fundamentalism, and theocracy. In short, they're the American equivalent in the Middle East." - AF

Well said.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

My response was directed at your snide and uninformed commentary on it. You use a small sect of murderers to demonize an entire people and religion.
Nice straw man.

YOU DAMN IDIOT, YOU SAID THAT YOU'RE WAITING FOR THE ISLAMIC GHANDI TO STEP UP!! YOU NAIVELY LUMPED EVERYONE IN ONE OF THE WORL'D'S LARGEST RELIGIONS INTO YOUR CRITIQUE OF A VERY TINY MINORITY.

A "straw man"argument, typically, means that someone is attempting to divert the point. I directly addressed your point. Palestinians are not merely muslims, either. There are Christian muslims, too. There are different sects of Islam. Not all muslims are Palestinians. Not all Palestinians are muslims. Not all muslims and/or Palestinians participate in terrorist activities coordinated by groups such as Fatah, Hamas, Al-Aksa (sic), Hezbollah, etc.

In fact, you clearly avoided the crux of my previous post so you throw out your own starw argument. There are other economic and political factors that produce terrorism, NOT merely a religion.

[Brandon]

No, Kevin, a "straw man" makes an opponent or his argument into an extreme, easy to attack substitute. You turned a tongue-in-cheek quip about the Islamic Gandhi into a full-scale condemnation of muslims everywhere. That's a straw man.

And Max, I'm sorry if I'm getting hostile, but I was sensing that I was starting to get painted with the "psycho hawk" brush, and it couldn't be further from the truth.

I'm usually with you on foreign policy; I believe peaceful solutions are inherently better than violent ones, and I always think that military action should be the last resort or only used in extreme cases. The problem with the Israeli/Palestinian issue, though, is that since 1948, Israel has used every conceivable method of ending the conflict; some of the peaceful, some of them not. Israel has dealt with fairly regular instances of terrorism, as well as fighting five or so wars in its short history, so I just can't condemn them morally when I hear they're assasinating terrorist leaders. Bloodshed is never "glorious" by any means, but Israel is really in dire straits. They've been in dire straits since the founding of the country.

And I think it may be fallacious reasoning to suggest that the logical consequence of these new policies is the wholesale elimination of all Palestinians. Granted, new terrorists will surface, but every Palestinian won't inevitably turn into a terrorist.

[mburbank]

I'm not painting you with anything. Other people can react however they choose.

Naldo, what would it be like if you made an effort? I mean, muck in before someone mistakes your laziness for impairment and tries to strap a bomb to you. I don't want to see a photo of you stripped to you undershorts on your knees in front of Israeli soldiers. My heart couldn't take it.

[Ronnie Raygun]

If I tried their would be no contest seeing how Brandon has already wiped out your entire argument.

What fun would there be in that?

[Abcdxxxx]

Kevin - The article's interesting, and works for a quick rebutal, but It's not much more then a gesture in the right direction.

This sentence: "The group called on the public to "rise again in a peaceful, wise Intefadeh (uprising)." says it all. More uprisings. Against Israel, not Hamas. It's a swirve to redirect and refocus that anger towards Israel to instigate more violence. Same old, same old.

It's signed by same usual suspects that have always pretended to deplore suicide bombings while actively organizing them at the same time. They act like it's a mystery how these things occur. That this violence is the result of a groundswell of desperation. They never explain high end weapons grade explosives, the family rewards, or strategic planning, and training that goes into such actions, because they're implicated by it. I'd like to say this means something, but this is probably the fourth time the Palestinians have gone through these motions after some embarassing event. They take turns pointing the finger at one another but they never really step up. What's one letter in a PA newspaper amongst hundreds of posters celebrating the murders? A real step will be when they march through every Palestinian town, and tear down all those posters, and shut down all the suicide training camps.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

ABC- you asked me to show you where they are, go stand with them. Rather than encouraging them, you have chosen to belittle them as whatever. I appreciate your cynicism, but you asked a question, and I answered it. I'd rather not paint the Palestinians in quite the broad stroke you and Brandon have.

Brandon- YOU are a straw man. You are a funny little straw man. From now on, whenever you post, happy little thoughts of Ray Bolger dancing and singing Ïf I only had a brain" will be playing in my head.

Brandon, if you truly don't espouse the things I've claimed, that all muslims must be terror loving, jew killing monsters, then prove it. Your "muslim ghandi" comment was either careless, crude, or uninformed. Which one was it?

EDIT: Most of my post got cut off. >:

Brandon, more directly to the point, I feel that my so called "strawman" was very relevant. Raygun posted this story to attack an entire group of people, not merely a small faction of their "leadership." Why does he do this? He does this in order to rationalize "kicking the crap out of them," or whatever you called the Israeli approach.

I was once quite partisan on this issue, as ABC well knows. I have become much more suppprtive of Israel, and very cynical when it comes to the "plight" of the Palestinians (as compared to other Arab nations). However, I feel that you band ABC are the exact opposite. You paint the Palestinians as unyielding, unreasonable, etc., and yet see Israel and Israelis as unquestionably giving and reasonable. I'm certain they are. Go to a settlement with IDF soldiers, ask THOSE Israelis to compromise, be agreeable, and you will get a struggle. Perhaps violence. Does this compare to a suicide bomb on a public bus? Of course not. But my overall point is that you seem to approach this with a zealotry that has only furthered tensions and conflict rather than resolving it.

[mburbank]

"If I tried their would be no contest seeing how Brandon has already wiped out your entire argument."
-Naldo

In other words, you have no ideas on moving toward peace. Don't feel bad, neither does the administration.

[Brandon]

Brandon, if you truly don't espouse the things I've claimed, that all muslims must be terror loving, jew killing monsters, then prove it. Your "muslim ghandi" comment was either careless, crude, or uninformed. Which one was it?
My comment was meant to be nothing more than a snide callback to previous posts in other threads that, as far as I'm concerned, minimized the Palestinians' culpability in the conflict. It wasn't meant to paint all muslims as evil monsters; you just read into it that way so you could attack me more easily.

But I'll admit: it was careless. I apologize if it was insensitive to muslims. However, I'm not on the record either, and I figured the political correctness police weren't out to bust heads on the I-Mockery message boards.

And seriously, fuck you and your "relevant" straw man. I don't deserve your shit just because I disagree with you on this issue. You seriously need to examine what kind of comments YOU'VE been making before you start labeling people as "zealots."

[KevinTheOmnivore]

"My comment was meant to be nothing more than a snide callback to previous posts in other threads that, as far as I'm concerned, minimized the Palestinians' culpability in the conflict. It wasn't meant to paint all muslims as evil monsters; you just read into it that way so you could attack me more easily."

No, I read the words you typed and responded. Brandon, do you believe that there are ANY Palestinians who would prefer non-violent measures against Israel???

"And seriously, fuck you and your "relevant" straw man. I don't deserve your shit just because I disagree with you on this issue. You seriously need to examine what kind of comments YOU'VE been making before you start labeling people as "zealots.""

It's not a mere disagreement. I think you'd find we agree on several matters pertaining to this conflict (which I in fact began to list out in the post that got cut off). Furthermore, I'd challenge you to point out comments I've made that would classify as extremist. I don't know that I made a blanket indictment against the Israeli "leadership," nor did I make a flippant comment over whether or not Israelis wanted peace seriously enough. I also never said that the Palestinians have done everything nice possible, and the Israelis in fact everything bad. I also didn't say "still waiting for the Jewish Ghandi" in reference to the IDF. So before you make any claims of who is this and who is that, you damn well better back it up.

[Brandon]

No, I read the words you typed and responded. Brandon, do you believe that there are ANY Palestinians who would prefer non-violent measures against Israel???
Yes.

What the hell do you want from me, exactly, Kevin? I already aplogized for any insensitivity in the comment. Are you looking for groveling here or are you just trying to annihilate my character? I really don't want to argue with you any more over this, so can we please just kindly drop it?

[Ant10708]

"There are Christian muslims, too."

Does that even make sense?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Forgive me, I meant Palestinian Christians.

[Ant10708]

Oh okay.

[Abcdxxxx]

If there are Palestinian Christians then there are Palestinian Jews, and Jewish residents of Gaza are entitled to call themselves Palestinians too.

My understanding is that the Pal title was put on the Christians of Bethlehem when the PA took control, and they were told "you're Palestinians now". I don't think the climate is very comfortable for them, and like Hasidic Jews of Israel, they follow a different framework of nationalism altogether. It's conveniant politically for the PA to say "they're with us, we're diverse, the church is sacred to Palestinians too" but if you believe in a Palestinian as a nationality, with it's own language, culture, etc. then the Christians out there aren't really a part of all that. The other things is the majority of Christians were driven out entirely when the religious sites were trasnfered to the PA, and the Muslim community there has nearly taken over Bethlehem, planning construction for a massive Mosque. Anyway historically Christians have always been Christian, and it's only recently that they've been given a Palestinian Christian title.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I'll grant you all of that. The warm, fuzzy liberal in me would like to think that they're all Palestinians. We know that that probably isn't the case.

But the fact that the Christian (and Druze?) relationship with the PA is sketchy and uneasy doesn't change the fact that they are now a part of the dynamic there, and probably would be in any sort of state set up.