SOMALIA REVISITED

[mburbank]

I'm sure by now most of you have read accounts of four American contractors being killed in Fallujah and their mutilated bodies being dragged through the streets.

My question is how do we still paint the violence in Iraq as being perpitrated by 'insurgents' 'Baath party loyalists' 'terrorists'? When a mob drags mtuilated bodies out of a car, ties them to automobiles ties them to bridges, parades the through the street, is it some small group of holdouts trying to stifle democracy? Or do the people of Fallujah really, really hate us, to a degree we can't even comprehend?

You can't occupy a place that hates you this much, you can't steer it toward democracy. This isn't greeting us with flowers. This is what comes from sewing the wind.

[MEATMAN]

This is what comes from sewing the wind.

Careful, Max. You're starting to show the symptoms of Vinthanosis.

[Ant10708]

I'm going to sound dumb here but is Fallujah in Iraq? I haven't heard anything about this incident. Can you link me? Thanks in advance.

edit: Nevermind I just saw it on the news.

[Stabby]

General Schoomaker said this was a "small" group of Iraqis who "just don't get it."

That must be the case. Not getting it....

[Ninjavenom]

Is it necessary to post every friggin' article in caps? That doesn't make the contents any less boring, you know.

[mburbank]

It's so hard to say what's neccesary and what isn't. Like your blowing me. It's really all a matter of perspective.

[The One and Only...]

It's certainly smaller than the majority of Iraqis, but I imagine that the size is larger than has been alluded to.

My fears are of a rising nationalist sentiment among the Iraqi people.

[kellychaos]

I wasn't really crazy about the "providing democracy to an oppressed people that I really didn't care about" thing but ... well, we're there and already in it, so to speak, and we've just received a world class slap in the face from basically a piss-ant class of a country. If it is indeed, a "small pocket of resistance" relative to the rest of the country, then this resistance needs to be made to bleed horribly and feel intense pain and humiliation ASAP. That is all.

[El Blanco]

Interesting that you brought up Somalia. There certainly is a parallel there. Do you think it is true that this was just a small group with lots of influence causing trouble as it was in Somalia?

Do you think C-in-C will have our boys come scampering home with their tails between their legs instead of letting them finish the job?

[Ant10708]

Well they won't be going home. They are actually going to send the Marines into the city. And apparently where this happened is one of the areas that had the strongest Saddam loyalty.

Also I didn't find this boring...

[Abcdxxxx]

My question is how do we still paint the violence in Iraq as being perpitrated by 'insurgents' 'Baath party loyalists' 'terrorists'? When a mob drags mtuilated bodies out of a car, ties them to automobiles ties them to bridges, parades the through the street, is it some small group of holdouts trying to stifle democracy?

Can't it be all of the above? While you would have to be a fool to think these actions represent all Iraqi's, or all Arabs, or all Muslims, aren't you just realizing that there isn't much difference between what "the people" believe and what "the terrorists" believe? All that p.c. stuff of saying "just because you agree with a terrorist, doesn't make you one" is a foolish way to combat these sentiments. I mean compassion is nice, but wake up. Look at Arabic TV, look at the books that are popular, look at their opinion of the West, and THEN look at what happened in Somalia.


Or do the people of Fallujah really, really hate us, to a degree we can't even comprehend?
You can't occupy a place that hates you this much, you can't steer it toward democracy. This isn't greeting us with flowers. This is what comes from sewing the wind.

The British did just fine for years, and the argument that the region was more stable isn't too farfetched. The "Occupation" isn't the reason they hate us. They're very vocal about why they hate us, we just want to pretend it's for more deserved reasons. You can't occupy a place that hates you that much and try to be delicate about it. That's what it comes down to. Removing ourselves from the Middle East wouldn't change anything but the confrontational aspect.... because the hatred in the Middle East isn't just in the Middle East.[/quote]

[ziggytrix]

PLEASE bear in mind these "contractors" the media refers to without going into much detail were actually ARMED security for the American corporations who are "rebuilding" Iraq. They don't answer to anyone other than the men paying them, and perhaps a less media-friendly, but more realistic title for them would be "mercenaries".

Not to trivialize the indignities done to these four, but we aren't talking about unarmed engineers and architects here. There is MORE to the story that you aren't being told.

[Bobo Adobo]

Ziggy is absolutly right. They were definatly mercs.

One thing that the media really doesn't really touch on is the increase of Mercenaries being hired. For the past ten years Mercs have been popping up all over the place. Especially the Middle East and Africa.

[ziggytrix]

People need to quit saying "Ziggy is absolutely right" before I get some kinda ego thing going.

But I wonder what the mercs were doing to get themselves ganked and dragged around town like that? Were they doing "horrible things (TM)" or were they only guilty of being "white in the wrong neighborhood"?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Mercs have been popping up in Iraq like a boom industry because people don't feel safe. Those who don't feel policed hire their own.

Whether they were "mercs" or not, NOBODY deserves that kind of dehumanization. It was barbaric.

[ziggytrix]

I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise, Kevin.

[Abcdxxxx]

It's not a secret. Haliburton has been sending over armed security gaurds or whatever you want to call it to compensate the 100,000 soldiers Rumsfield didn't get. I'd think you could find some better mercernarys for hire if you were just looking to fuck shit up. We already have Hizzballah guerrillas, and Czechnian rebels running around there. The IRA have long had a presence working the Middle East for hire. This didn't happen because they were mercenaries, it happened because they're Americans.

[Cosmo Electrolux]

They were actually Blackwater employees....the guys who train the SEAL teams in firearms, etc. They were hired to provide security at oil wells and shit like that. The Americans are management for the most part, the guards are South American mercenaries...Chilean I think.

[ziggytrix]

So did it happen because they were Americans, or because they were perceived as thugs guarding stolen oil wells?

AbcdXXXX would have us believe it's the former, but I've heard so little about the story that I'm unsure.

[mburbank]

My point is that it is a muddy, complicated, ugly situation. I don't think there are any speciffic groups to 'root out' or 'perpetrators' to punish. I think there is a large, angry, dangerous, barbaric, undifferentiated mob. I'm not even at the moment going so far as thinking about the reasons.

I'm pointing out a quagmire.

It's all very well to say (as compared to Somalia) 'well, this time, we won't run, we'll finish the job."

What exactly IS the job? When would you know it was 'finished'? And when it' a whole city that hates you enough to do what people their did and celebrate what can you possibly do? We've already committed ourselves publicly to a 'strong response.' Who are we going to respond to?

I appreciatte the 'however we got there, we're there now, and we have to stay until the job is done' argument, I honestly do, but I think somebody needs to start painting a realistic picture of what the 'job' is and some way of getting there.

Because at least as far as Fallujah goes, I don't see options outside of 'destroying the village in order to save it.'

[Cosmo Electrolux]

So did it happen because they were Americans, or because they were perceived as thugs guarding stolen oil wells?

AbcdXXXX would have us believe it's the former, but I've heard so little about the story that I'm unsure.

I read that these guys were actually guarding a food convoy. The Chilean mercs are guarding oil wells

I think Max is rights...it's starting to look Quagmire-ish to me too....a messy situation all around.

[ranxer]

mercs! were they hired to protect our military or corporate interests?

we're talking about 'pacifying' falluja by killing everyone?
a violent response in falluja will harden more Iraqis and more of the world against the US. i'd say it's worse than a quagmire, its a huge disaster.

even iraqi police forces have to wear masks to hide thier identity from iraqis revenge for working with the US.

how much taxes are we giving to private corporations to protect US interests? we're giving over 50% of our tax dollar to the war machine but that doesnt include these private security deals right?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/02/national/02SECU.html

Here's an article on the Blackwater subject. It was a headline in today's NY Times.

I don't think it really would've mattered what they were doing. I think we need to be careful to not turn this into some twisted rationalization. "Oh...they were doing that???? Well now I can see why a 10 year old boy would step on the head of a burning corpse."

The "mercs" from Fiji were hired out by a British company, me thinks. But aside from corporations and government officials hiring these guys out, it has also been done by Iraqi communities that wanted to protect their property in light of the post-war anarchy that had been going on.

[Cosmo Electrolux]

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18193

here's the article I read originally about the mercs.

[mburbank]

A agree with Kevin. I think these are two unrelated issues. It doesn't matter what the hell these guys were. They could have been soldiers or cake decorators, I don't think it changes what happened.

The issue of the military privatizing what used to be army jobs, wether that saves or costs money and wether it's a good idea is a whole nother bucket of beans, and worth discussing, but it's unrelated.

[kellychaos]

I'm not getting the feeling that it's anything those people, as individuals did, so much as who they represent. Perhaps part of it was the fact that local guerillas knew what qualifications these guys had, what they were there for and decided to squash the threat of what they may do before it happened. Honestly speaking, I don't see the city being made into a parking lot. That would create more uproar than any benefit or feeling of vindication on our part. What I do see in the city's future is a close scrutiny of the area to find the main insurgents, surgically take them out and send a message to those who may even think about doing something so medieval and inhumane again ... and I don't think you are likely to hear or read about any of the specifics over the AP.

[Abcdxxxx]

So did it happen because they were Americans, or because they were perceived as thugs guarding stolen oil wells?

AbcdXXXX would have us believe it's the former, but I've heard so little about the story that I'm unsure.

I'm not sure the "Arab street" covets oil nearly as much as we covet oil. They're used to thugs gaurding stolen oil wells, they're just not used to it being American thugs.


That's interesting about the Chileans, but the victims were American, right?

[ziggytrix]

A agree with Kevin. I think these are two unrelated issues. It doesn't matter what the hell these guys were. They could have been soldiers or cake decorators, I don't think it changes what happened.

Certainly not, I'm just upset that I had to learn about it like this.

According to an article I read, a Fallujah car salesman who watched heard the men were CIA. That's probably what most of the mob thought.

how much taxes are we giving to private corporations to protect US interests? we're giving over 50% of our tax dollar to the war machine but that doesnt include these private security deals right?

I read in the Wall Street Journal that the corporations are required to provide their own security, but the US government pays for it. It seems to me this whole ordeal might have occured differently if the US government just recruited more soldiers and paid them to protect the Americans doing the rebuilding. I am VERY against the use of ununiformed, unregulated private forces who are STILL perceived as part of the American government.

And of course, we can keep our mercs over there long after we pull out our soldiers, and the American public doesn't have to worry that we're still at war during election season.

[kellychaos]

Doesn't it kind of irritate anyone that the military leaders in charge over there have been begging for increased military support for months and were refused, but then, in place of more troops, get privatized security forces? It's almost like the government is trying to hide just how large are presense is by excluding support from conventional troops ... or am I overstating this?

[ziggytrix]

That's half of what's got me so pissed off.

[ranxer]

What I do see in the city's future is a close scrutiny of the area to find the main insurgents, surgically take them out and send a message to those who may even think about doing something so medieval and inhumane again

i don't think we've done anything surgically over there.. i'm reading reports of our soldiers breaking down doors and shooting everything that moves from front and back then checking later if they got anyone worth killing.. after they found out they had the wrong address in one incident the soldier said to the press 'oh man, these backward iraqis don't know how to put the right address on thier houses.'

there's a difference between what is happening on the ground in Iraq and what is being reported in the US news and it's a huge difference.

Robert Fisk has a lot of interesting things to say every day that doesnt make it into the U.S. mainstream.. ever.

[Abcdxxxx]

When we hire outside assistance to our military is it still included in our military spending budget? Or could that be another benefit of doing it this way?

[El Blanco]

One benefit might be that they don't have to play by the same rules US troops do. Of course, they don't get the same back up our troops do, either.

[kellychaos]

You fellas noticed that we went from a reporter with every brigade during the ground invasion but have seen little in the way they've dealt with insurgency after the "war" over the mainstream media?

[davinxtk]

Yeah, they kindof stopped that when they realized that reporting daily riots in the streets and American soldiers having to defend themselves with bayonetts on their M-16s wasn't exactly the kind of war that the American people wanted to be fighting.

[The One and Only...]

The real benefit to the dominant political machinization is that we can make do with fewer military troops. This not only makes it appear as though less manpower is needed than is really required, but also keeps public outcry down because fewer young soldiers are being killed.

Expect to see more private enterprises cropping up in the war against terror. I'm certain that we'll see plenty of specialized forces created to root out members of such organizations.

[Supafly345]

They do genuinely hate us. But it is not for political reasons, or just bitter vengeance; it is religious. They are led to hate those who practice a religion other than their own - this along with the fact that they believe that most all Americans are Christian, leads them to unprejudiced hate that cannot be avoided.
In their religion, they believe a man can die even after he has been already killed in the common understanding of the word. So when they beat and mutilated the corpses of these dead people, they were essentially, in their minds, killing them over and over. Hatred enough to want to kill a person they don't even know, again and again.

We aren't going to get them to love us, because they are compelled to only hate. Sure, we need to fix what we broke there, but I say that the best thing to do is cut our losses and split.

[ranxer]

defense budget and mercs:
my understanding is that corporate interests get taxpayer dollars to help defend those interests via mercs.
we have over 140,000 troops over there and no-one can say reliably how many thousands more in mercs guarding everything from oil wells to our soldiers bases.

supafly:They do genuinely hate us. But it is not for political reasons, or just bitter vengeance; it is religious.

comeon bud.. that's only a fraction of the fighting.. religious fundamentalism is present and used as a TOOL by those wielding that flute.. the other folks fighting have a problem with an OCCUPATION and corporate THEFT of oil contracts(foriegn companies being brought in for reconstruction etc. Many others will join in (the enemy of my enemy is my friend sometimes yaknow) because as in palestine they have seen thier towns and loved ones shot up and bombed to hell. We have fueled the fire with gasoline.. i think religion is a solid 30% of the reason people are fighting but not much more.

[El Blanco]

You fellas noticed that we went from a reporter with every brigade during the ground invasion but have seen little in the way they've dealt with insurgency after the "war" over the mainstream media?

Well, think about the imbedded reporters during the invasion. They had something to follow. They were given a goal, follow the tanks (or what have you). You knew where the action was, you just had to make sure the camera was rolling.

Now, we are occupying and sending out patrols and such. It would be a pain in the ass to send out an entire crew with each and every squad. And its not like they know when or where the fighting will be.

[Supafly345]

i think religion is a solid 30% of the reason people are fighting but not much more.You are overcomplicating it, as I would expect from an aspiring political buff. That is a thrown number there, and it is impossible to accept how their religion effects their decisions when all we focus on are the domestic benefits and shortcomings; so I can see why you feel the need to think that.

But what you may not have realized, is that no religious leaders or government mind-wipers decided on these beliefs, they were established centuries ago. Again, they were raised this way, there is no puppet master pulling the strings.
To think this is about resources again is a generic and, pardon me, narrow vantage on what we are looking at. This was an attack on normal workers, and a desecration of their beings along with it.
The automatic mechanical response to this is "This goes back to when we attacked just for Oil and ruined all of their lives." and that is simply not true. They have never wanted anything to do with us. It has always been this way, and will always be this way.
And you have to get real for a second here. You think that the slumrats and field workers are stewing day and night over a resource they never really had power over in the first place? (Not that I am saying that stripping them of it is fine and dandy) You would actually think that they would murder, burn, abuse, and hang unarmed people who are working to help reconstruct the very city they live in over something they know nothing about? It is just simple common sense mixed in with a little knowledge of their land's background.

But again, I suspect most ignore that and will continue to make recurring arguments to turn everything that happens in that region as another leg to support their original opposition to all activity there. Even though I also oppose most foreign involvement where it does not belong, I realize that the only involvement that lead to this disaster was those people's mere presence.

[ranxer]

i don't think mercs were rebuilding anything, they may have been securing areas that were scheduled for reconstruction but i havnt' heard what their mission was in falluja.
either way mercs 'securing' a 'safe zone' for whatever purpose are armed and enforce 'peace' through the threat of violence..
I've heard iraqis saying 'we fought saddam now we are fighting the western occupier', i almost never read or hear of average iraqis talking about religious war, its war against occupation, theft and armed 'pacification' that creates a vicious cycle of violence much of it revenge for collateral damage.
I just don't see much evidence of this religious war you are talking about, and yes 30% is my own estimation from the various news sources i frequent.

[Ant10708]

I thought a majority of the violence that occurs in Iraq was by people who just crossed the border into Iraq. Is this incorrect?

[Brandon]

You'd have to be either naive or politically correct to the point of absurdity to suggest that religion hasn't played a role in this war or the greater "War on Terror."

[Ant10708]

But it only played a 30% role. ;)

[ranxer]

way too often its been used a tool, both in the US and Iraq.

[Bobo Adobo]

You'd have to be either naive or politically correct to the point of absurdity to suggest that religion hasn't played a role in this war or the greater "War on Terror."

Its not really the religion itself that plays a role in the war. Its the distorted interpertations of religous morals that do. The American Government thinks that we are the supreme superpower that knows all good. They think that if we just poke our head into every shady situation in world, all will be good. It's just stupid and arrogant, how can a country who has more crime than any other civilised country go around making things right?

I wouldn't totally put religion to blame though. You don't see catholic monks launching cruise missles anywhere, do you?

[kellychaos]

Yes, the misinterpretation by fundamentalist religious leaders has something to do with it. Yes, our occupation of their country has something to do with it. And yes, there are some other factors that go into them wanting to kill our soldiers. Somehow, I'm not so much bothered by the fact of the killing so much as the way they those people were killed and desecrated afterward. It was medieval and fills me with an anger that starts as my f'n toes and shoves bile right up my throat. With this, logic and political discussion go out the window. Those particular people need to be rounded up and dealt with with extreme prejudice. Rant over.

[Brandon]

You'd have to be either naive or politically correct to the point of absurdity to suggest that religion hasn't played a role in this war or the greater "War on Terror."Its not really the religion itself that plays a role in the war. Its the distorted interpertations of religous morals that do.
Yeah, but it's still religion.

I wouldn't totally put religion to blame though. You don't see catholic monks launching cruise missles anywhere, do you?
Nah, the Catholics have retired from the killing business.

And no, the religion itself is not to blame, but it's undeniable that the actions of the terrorists have religious motivations behind them.

[Supafly345]

To die a martyr for their religion (such as suicide bombings and death penalties) is the only guaranteed way to gain access to an afterlife for them- if that puts things into perspective.

[davinxtk]

... Somehow, I'm not so much bothered by the fact of the killing so much as the way they those people were killed and desecrated afterward. It was medieval and fills me with an anger that starts as my f'n toes and shoves bile right up my throat. With this, logic and political discussion go out the window. Those particular people need to be rounded up and dealt with with extreme prejudice...

An American woman who had recently married a man from Saudi Arabia spoke to one of my history classes during my senior year of highschool. She passed around pictures of everyone posing around "the family gun." She talked about it like it was their watchdog.
This part of the world is of a medieval mindset with modern weapons and capabilities. There's no way to erase millenia of religious, financial, racial, and political turmoil and convince these people to live and let live.

At least no way that doesn't make us easily as medieval and barbaric as the destructive minds we're trying to quell.

[kellychaos]

I'm all for vengeance right about now. :shrug

[davinxtk]

So was the crowd that burned and mutilated those four people.

The only reason you'd stop at putting bullets in their heads is because the center of your faith doesn't paint them as war-mongering infidels.

(Shit, the more I think about it, the more I agree with the fucking Iraqis on this issue.)

[Brandon]

EDIT: Nevermind.

[kellychaos]

Firstly, the issue of faith for me is irrelevant. If you to talk about a sense of social morality common to most of us in this country, then I guess I take your point. At the same time, the Muslim faith is not inherently violent or disrespectful to the dead. In fact, one of the greater sins in the Muslim world is desecrating the dead and one of the foulest areas of the body, to them, is the feet ... and they were beating our dead with their shoes. Yes, it tells us that THOSE outer-fringe fanatics hate us in the extreme but it does not speak for the Muslim religion. I have just as much of a hate-on for the Shiite leaders of those people who should know better and lead their people to such things as this for their own benefit as I do for out local Bible-misinterpreting panhandlers of the airwaves we have right here in our own country.

[davinxtk]

That's not what I'm saying, Brandon.
I'm just saying that killing for vengence is killing for vengence.
It's black and white as far as intent goes, wrath is wrath.

I'm targeting kellychaos's posts here, nothing more.

[Brandon]

Ok.

[Cosmo Electrolux]

they act like uncivilized animals, they should be treated as such.

[Supafly345]

Yes yes, leading into the joke about them needing to be taken back as slaves and pets, then eventually being able to vote.

[Cosmo Electrolux]

no joke. The ones dragging the corpses around should be treated like the animals they are...by no means punish the entire Iraqi population, or Muslim for that matter....the criminals who killed and mutilation those men...regardless of their nationality and the ones who should be punished.

[kellychaos]

Exactly, those people and the leaders who got them into such a lather ... not the general populace. It's sort of like the way the missle program worked as a deterent for years. When people know that evil acts will be returned, more or less in kind, they are less likely to commit such acts ... especially if caught and handled in an efficient and timely manner. The more we let them get away with such acts of aggression over time, the more we are the laughing stock of the rest of the muslim world and will increasingly be maligned, attacked and thought of an weak, ineffective push-overs and it only gets worse for our troops from there. Since we're already involved, we need to get a handle on it. There's simply no turning back now. That would be like saying that the lives lost so far were for naught and I wouldn't want THAT resting in the minds of the families of those military members.