Thanks to the war....

[Ronnie Raygun]

.. the first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has graduated and is on
active duty.

.. over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their fellow citizens.

.. nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts are functioning.

.. the Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.

.. on Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518 megawatts-exceeding the prewar average.

.. all 22 universities and 43 technical institutes and colleges are
open, as are nearly all primary and secondary schools.

.. by October 1, Coalition forces had rehab-ed over 1,500 schools -
500 more than scheduled.

.. teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former salaries.

.. all 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are open.

.. doctors salaries are at least eight times what they were under
Saddam.

.. pharmaceutical distribution has gone from essentially nothing to
700 tons in May to a current total of 12,000 tons.

.. the Coalition has helped administer over 22 million vaccinations to Iraq's children.

.. a Coalition program has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq's
27,000 kilometers of weed-choked canals which now irrigate tens of
thousands of farms. This project has created jobs for more than
100,000 Iraqi men and women.

.. we have restored over three-quarters of prewar telephone services
and over two-thirds of the potable water production.

.. there are 4,900 full-service telephone connections. We expect
50,000 by year-end.

.. the wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles to satellite
dishes to cars and trucks, businesses are coming to life in all major
cities and towns.

.. 95 percent of all prewar bank customers have service and first-time
customers are opening accounts daily.

.. Iraqi banks are making loans to finance businesses.

.. the central bank is fully independent.

.. Iraq has one of the worlds most growth-oriented investment and
banking laws.

.. Iraq has a single, unified currency for the first time in 15 years.

.. satellite TV dishes are legal.

.. foreign journalists aren't on 10-day visas paying mandatory and
extortionate fees to the Ministry of Information for "minders" and
other government spies.

.. there is no Ministry of Information.

.. there are more than 170 newspapers.

.. you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street
corner.

.. foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free to come and go.

.. a nation that had not one single element - legislative, judicial or executive - of a representative government, now does.

.. in Baghdad alone residents have selected 88 advisory councils.

..Baghdad's first democratic transfer of power in 35 years happened
when the city council elected its new chairman.

.. today in Iraq chambers of commerce, business, school and
professional organizations are electing their leaders all over the
country.

.. 25 ministers, selected by the most representative governing body in Iraq's history, run the day-to-day business of government.

.. the Iraqi government regularly participates in international
events.

..since July the Iraqi government has been represented in over two
dozen international meetings, including those of the UN General
Assembly, the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today, the
Islamic Conference Summit.

..the Ministry of Foreign Affairs today announced that it is reopening
over 30 Iraqi embassies around the world.

.. Shia religious festivals that were all but banned, aren't.

.. for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala thousands of Shiites
celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam.

.. the Coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects,
large and small, as part of a strategic plan for the reconstruction of
Iraq.

.. Uday and Queasy are dead - and no longer feeding innocent Iraqis to
the zoo lions, raping the young daughters of local leaders to force
cooperation, torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games, or
murdering critics.

.. children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their parents disagree
with the government.

.. political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured, executed, maimed,
or are forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam.

.. millions of long suffering Iraqis no longer live in perpetual
terror.

.. Saudis will hold municipal elections.

.. Qatar is reforming education to give more choices to parents.

.. Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.

.. the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian
-- a Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for
democracy and for peace.

.. Saddam is gone.

.. Iraq is free.

[Pub Lover]

Yeah, but Iraq is full of Muslims, so do they really deserve for the US taxpayers to fund all that?

[Jeanette X]

.. Saudis will hold municipal elections.

.. Qatar is reforming education to give more choices to parents.

.. Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.

.. the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian
-- a Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for
democracy and for peace.

The war did this? :confused

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Of course it did. I'm also counting on it putting the Giants in the Superbowl this season. Here's to hoping.....

[Jeanette X]

*snip* Double post.

[Ronnie Raygun]

:/

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Weird.

[Stabby]

To think! We can have all that here in America too! We only have to kill 10,781 civilians! Maybe when he's done being president of Iraq, G. W. will decide to be president of little ol' U.S.
:blah

[Drew Katsikas]

Mind you, at least some of those civilians were agressors.


But still... :(

[El Blanco]

Of course it did. I'm also counting on it putting the Giants in the Superbowl this season. Here's to hoping.....

Dude, Kerry Collins is getting cut. Looks like the Chargers are getting 2 of the top 5 first round draft picks next year. The rest of the NFC East got a lot better, and the Giants dumped their starter for a rookie.

[mburbank]

A.) Source? 'Cause I'm thinking some of the fact checking on some of these facctoids i s a wee bit week.

B.) Causality? The Nobel Prize one was the one I liked best. Did you know for the first time I can get Omar Shariff's bridge column in my local paper? Why? The war.

It's just a damn good thing they founbd the WMD like it says in your other post. Becuase otherwise all the great things this war has done might encourage powerful secretive governments to lie to their citizens in order to get great things to happen.

Here's another thing that need to go on that list. Lots and lots and lots of dead human beings. Lots and lots more mutilated human beings. Lots and lots of money spent on killing. And by the end of today, maybe a brand new presidential power, the ability to jail a US citizen for life without charge or access to lawyer, based solely on the word of the chief executive.

[Mike]

Who's paying for all of that?

[mburbank]

Us. Can I just pay my taxes straight to Halliburton? It could save the government stamps.

[Perndog]

Shit. I'm in favor of war in the Middle East and I'm still annoyed by Republicans who try to give it moral justification.

BULLSHIT, YOU JACKASSES

There, I got it out of my system. I'm not going to post about war again for a while.

[Ronnie Raygun]

That's an ignorant statement considering that it's been proven that evryone but the U.S. has been profiting from Iraqi oil including Kofi Annan's son .

[Perndog]

Wait, what's ignorant? Me calling bullshit on your morality, or what those other guys were saying?

And if you're talking to me, fuck off, I'm right and you're wrong, neener neener neener.

Gosh, I love politics.

[sspadowsky]

That's an ignorant statement considering that it's been proven that evryone but the U.S. has been profiting from Iraqi oil including Kofi Annan's son .

Sources? You know, those documented words and numbers that back up your assertions? Try some of that action. 'Cause that statement you made? It sounds an awful lot like something a dittohead might hear on the Rush show, repeat gratuitously, and never question. I call "bullshit."

EDIT: Even if you are right, which I highly doubt, there's a shitload more ways to make a profit in Iraq. Some of them crooked and, under any circumstances, especially the current ones, pretty fucking heinous. Ask Halliburton. That's why they're paying millions in fines to the government. Rest assured that administration cronies are growing fat like the little ticks they are. To believe otherwise is dangerously naive. And we all know you're not naive, right, Ronnie?

[Big Papa Goat]

That's an ignorant statement considering that it's been proven that evryone but the U.S. has been profiting from Iraqi oil including Kofi Annan's son .

Ya, and thats why the US went to war with Iraq and no one supported them. What was the point you were trying to make again?

[mburbank]

We only did it to liberate them. Becuase we are all about Human rights. Human rights are the only things that motivate our President. That and the salary he continues to draw even though he's no longer officially in charge of Halliburton.

[ScruU2wice]

.. satellite TV dishes are legal.

.. you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street
corner.

Justifies the death of hundreds of Americans

Well Played Ronnie...

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Dude, Kerry Collins is getting cut. Looks like the Chargers are getting 2 of the top 5 first round draft picks next year. The rest of the NFC East got a lot better, and the Giants dumped their starter for a rookie.

The Giants gave up a 1, a 3, and a 5 for a guy who will at the very LEAST be just as good as Collins, but younger, and well tested in tense games. The best case scenario, he's the next Montana. A great deal, when you consider that the Bills essentially did the same thing for a project who will sit behind Bledsoe.

They had to cut Collins, they didn't want to, but they had to. I would've loved to have both of them compete for the job in camp, cuz the free market makes all boats rise and shit, but oh well. The Giants have a good team. They were at the top of most peoples Super Bowl lists last year, but everything that could go wrong for them did. I'm counting on a healthy Shockey, a Tike Barber who doesn't fumble every other down, an excellent quarterback, a healthy Ike Hilliard, a special teams unit worth the price tag, etc. etc.

[mburbank]

Thanks to the war...

Ten more sets of American Parents will never see their kids again.

[ranxer]

we're only paying about 100 billion this year to attempt to fulfill that list, most of which is bogus and totally not worth the cost in dollars or lives.
Where did you get that list ronnie?

[sspadowsky]

No doubt someone e-mailed that to him. One of my more conservative friends e-mailed that to me about five or six months ago. But it's from the internet, so it must be true.

[mburbank]

Thaks to the war, some of our guys got a chance to sexually humiliate Iraqi prisoners.

[El Blanco]

The Giants gave up a 1, a 3, and a 5 for a guy who will at the very LEAST be just as good as Collins, but younger, and well tested in tense games.

They gave up 2 #1 picks (Phillip Rivers). Rivers and the #3 this year? Fine. But next year's #1? And how can you say he's better than a 300 ypg quarterback when he was yet to throw a pass in the NFL?

The best case scenario, he's the next Montana.

Easy, cheif. Joe Montana actually had a champioship at this point in his career. I think its pretty unfair to compare a rookie who has just been drafted to the greatest QB of all time.

A great deal, when you consider that the Bills essentially did the same thing for a project who will sit behind Bledsoe.

Thats lousy deal, too.

They had to cut Collins, they didn't want to, but they had to.

True, he really should have accepted restructuring the deal.

I would've loved to have both of them compete for the job in camp, cuz the free market makes all boats rise and shit, but oh well.

It would have been better to have Manning learn from Collins for a season or two.

The Giants have a good team. They were at the top of most peoples Super Bowl lists last year, but everything that could go wrong for them did. I'm counting on a healthy Shockey, a Tike Barber who doesn't fumble every other down, an excellent quarterback, a healthy Ike Hilliard, a special teams unit worth the price tag, etc. etc.

The main problem was an o-line that never got to work as one cohesive unit due to injuries. If that doesn't improve, the Giants just mortgaged their next 3 or 4 years.

And when was the last time Hilliard was healthy?

I get this feeling that Manning will be the next Tyrone Wheatly.

[mburbank]

Thanks to the war, eleven more American kids won't be coming home.

Thanks to the war a British soldier got a chance to urinate on another human being.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

They gave up 2 #1 picks (Phillip Rivers). Rivers and the #3 this year? Fine. But next year's #1? And how can you say he's better than a 300 ypg quarterback when he was yet to throw a pass in the NFL?

That would make sense, ie. the two number ones thing, if the Giants hadn't gotten the #1 pick, Eli Manning. Yes, they lost a #1, but you''re certainly not in the red when you flip Rivers for Manning.

They can afford to give up a #1 just like teams such as the Cincinnati Bengals probably should've given up #1 picks for substance years ago. A guy in Newsday put it appropriately last week: in the NFL, you don't "rebuild,"you instead "reload."

Keep in mind that the Giants were among most lists to make the Super Bowl last season. MANY things went wrong, but they still have the tools there to be a competitive playoff team. The Giants gave up the #1 out of reasonable optimism. They're not counting on being where they were in this year's draft.

The best case scenario, he's the next Montana.

Easy, cheif. Joe Montana actually had a champioship at this point in his career. I think its pretty unfair to compare a rookie who has just been drafted to the greatest QB of all time.

I said upside, right? Eli Manning, at this very moment, has greater potential than Kerry Collins. He will at LEAST be as good as Kerry Collins, providing he doesn't get hurt. If you cut all of the QB's in the NFL in half, Collins is definitely on the better half. Manning will probably be there too, but has the poptential to be in the top 10 or 5. That's worth risking a #1 on.

The main problem was an o-line that never got to work as one cohesive unit due to injuries. If that doesn't improve, the Giants just mortgaged their next 3 or 4 years.

Not really. You said it yourself, they never got to become cohesive due to injury. Every team has to enter a season with optimism, hoping and asuming that lighting doesn't strike twice, right?

And when was the last time Hilliard was healthy?

Last season, and he had a pretty good year, at that.

I get this feeling that Manning will be the next Tyrone Wheatly.

NO way. Wheatly was waaay overrated, particularly by the Giants. They took him instead of Saalam (which in retrospect, may have been the wiser move). Manning is going to be a good QB, the only question is HOW good, IMO.

[VinceZeb]

Kevin needs to shut the fuck up about football. It's apparent that he doesn't know jack shit about it. Christ, can't you find SOMETHING you are worthwhile at?

[AChimp]

YEAH. >:

Rush knows football, and Rush disagrees with Kevin. >:

[El Blanco]

That would make sense, ie. the two number ones thing, if the Giants hadn't gotten the #1 pick, Eli Manning. Yes, they lost a #1, but you''re certainly not in the red when you flip Rivers for Manning.

Rivers plus this year's #3 plus next year's #1 and #5. If the Giants have another crappy year, this will really bite them in the ass.

Keep in mind that the Giants were among most lists to make the Super Bowl last season. MANY things went wrong, but they still have the tools there to be a competitive playoff team. The Giants gave up the #1 out of reasonable optimism. They're not counting on being where they were in this year's draft.

Have you seen what the rest of the NFC East did? Philly pickeds up TO and Jevone Kearse. Washington grabbing Clinton Portis. Dallas getting Keyshawn Johnson and Drew Henson.

I really don't see what a rookie QB is going to do against the rest of that.


I said upside, right?

In that case, the upside to every rookie QB is he can be the next Montana.

Eli Manning, at this very moment, has greater potential than Kerry Collins.

Blech. "Potential" is French for "ain't done jack shit". Ryan Leaf had potential. So did Dave Brown, Tyrone Wheatly, Ron Dayne, Jeff George, KiJanna Carter....do I need to go on?

Wheatly was waaay overrated, particularly by the Giants.

We didn't know that until he flopped.

Manning is going to be a good QB, the only question is HOW good, IMO.

Yes, he will be a good QB, but it won't do him much good underneath a pile of defensive tackles. You think he'll inherit that stunning Manning family playoff record?

[Big Papa Goat]

Kevin needs to shut the fuck up about football. It's apparent that he doesn't know jack shit about it. Christ, can't you find SOMETHING you are worthwhile at?
DAMN LIBERAL GAYS RUINING FOOTBALL >:

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Kevin needs to shut the fuck up about football. It's apparent that he doesn't know jack shit about it. Christ, can't you find SOMETHING you are worthwhile at?

So can you actually dispute what I said, or no? No? Yeah, that's what I thought. Like all things, you can add pro football to the list of things I have your number in. Bitch.

I'll get back to ya, Blanco.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Fuck it, real quick......


Rivers plus this year's #3 plus next year's #1 and #5. If the Giants have another crappy year, this will really bite them in the ass.

It just might. However, can you agree that swapping the #3 for the top pick in the draft cancels each other out at least? Even if Rivers turns out better, you can't fault the Giants for the choice. Most people see them as being relatively equal on the fundamentals, with Manning getting a little bit more in the "extra something special" category. Now that may all be hype, but I feel it's a risk worth taking.

Have you seen what the rest of the NFC East did? Philly pickeds up TO and Jevone Kearse. Washington grabbing Clinton Portis. Dallas getting Keyshawn Johnson and Drew Henson.

Which only makes a stronger case for the Giants taking a gamble on Eli Manning. One thing is certain, they wouldn't have been able to compete in the East with Collins as QB. There is no upside to having him as your arm (btw: Drew Henson? Is that really a strike against Manning? Come on.)

I really don't see what a rookie QB is going to do against the rest of that.

Read above.


I said upside, right?

In that case, the upside to every rookie QB is he can be the next Montana.

No, they can't. Manning was the #1 pick in the draft, and probably the most coveted player to come out. There's a BIG difference between Eli Manning and J.P. Lawson.

Eli Manning, at this very moment, has greater potential than Kerry Collins.

Blech. "Potential" is French for "ain't done jack shit". Ryan Leaf had potential. So did Dave Brown, Tyrone Wheatly, Ron Dayne, Jeff George, KiJanna Carter....do I need to go on?

Come on. Dave Brown? Wheatly wasn't even the most praised back in that draft, let alone achieving such status in the NFL. To my recollection, he was a low 1st round pick. You make it sound as if the Giants have never made a solid draft choice, neglecting of course the fact that they drafted arguably the best TE in football just two years ago.

Wheatly was waaay overrated, particularly by the Giants.

We didn't know that until he flopped.

Once again, read above. I remember watching that draft. They passed up on the Heisman winner for Wheatly. Certainly they didn't think he'd be a total flop, but it was still a risk. Comparing him to Manning however is like apples and oranges. With your logic, every draft choice made by every team ever could be a flop. Well, no duh. You still need to take those risks. One thing, again, is certain-- the Giants with Kerry Collins weren't getting any better.

EDIT: One other quick point. It should be noted that while Wheatley certainly isn't O.J., he is still the rushing leader for the Raiders. He's still a pretty viable (although not great) runningback in the NFL. Not quite a flop.



Manning is going to be a good QB, the only question is HOW good, IMO.

Yes, he will be a good QB, but it won't do him much good underneath a pile of defensive tackles. You think he'll inherit that stunning Manning family playoff record?

We shall see. I take it I'm speaking with a Jets fan?

[El Blanco]

No, I'm a huge Giants fan. I just think they did something that can be potentially great (draft Manning) and might have turned it into a giant cluster fuck.

I liked the trade to get Manning, I really did. I would have done it except for next year's #1. And, I think it would have done him well to learn from the bench for a year or two.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Fair enough.

[mesobe]

football fucking sucks. its the biggest gay sport known to man. a bunch of over-sized monkeys in grape-smugglers piling together like a huge Bukkake orgy.

[Royal Tenenbaum]

After reading that list, and if at least half of those things on the list are true, then I must say, the US is one great socialist country. They are giving tons of shit away to people, it's great.

[mesobe]

gotta love propaganda

[El Blanco]

football fucking sucks. its the biggest gay sport known to man. a bunch of over-sized monkeys in grape-smugglers piling together like a huge Bukkake orgy.

1) You are a fucking idiot who has yet to add anything to a conversation

2) You just described rugby or pretty much any contact sport played on an open field. If that is really what you see, it says a whole lot about where your mind is.

[ScruU2wice]

I really think this is one of the greatest threads on the boards as of now...

[mesobe]

football fucking sucks. its the biggest gay sport known to man. a bunch of over-sized monkeys in grape-smugglers piling together like a huge Bukkake orgy.

1) You are a fucking idiot who has yet to add anything to a conversation

2) You just described rugby or pretty much any contact sport played on an open field. If that is really what you see, it says a whole lot about where your mind is.

Rugby eh? yeah... Im not too sure you know what rugby is. and what other "contact sport played on an open field" is like american football?

I may not know where my own mind is half the time but Im quite positive that your own mind is snug up your ass.