watch the prisoner abuse scandal widen

[mburbank]

Bush didn't know at all. Rumsfled and the joint chiefs hadn't read the report which was 'still working it's way up the chain of command'. One has to wonder how severe an offnese or problem woud have to be to 'work it's way up' any faster.

Here are the questions to ask and things to watch for as this proceeds.

1.) To what extent has interrogation been privatized?
2.) Who's deision was that?
3.) Who supervises civillian interagators?
4.) Since civillian contractors in Iraq are not subject to military command or justice, what rules are they following? What laws if any are they subject to? How is their conduct monitored?
5.) Look for denials followed by the exposure of a cover up. There's always ass covering (pardon the pun) in corruption. It already looks as if Military PMs are being required to take a fall, and some lawyers are already suggesting that the CIA encouraged this kind of abuse to 'soften' detainees for interrogation.
6.) What other traditional military roles have been privatized?
7.) Has intelligecne gathering been privatized precisely BECAUSE civillian contractors are not constrained by military codes of conduct?


I think in the end this will hang around Rumsfelds neck. If I had to make a guess who's bright idea privatising interrogation was, I'd say Rumsfeld.

[Ronnie Raygun]

How many of the prisoners died?

How many of them were even disfigured?

I really haven't heard anyone on the news say.... other that just taunting them, how bad does this thing really get?

[kellychaos]

To be brutally honest, I'm all for the ideals of the Geneva Convention, hope that all adhere to them and am not ususually about the "eye for an eye" attitude. I'm not sure, however, that the rules are always practical. I'm sure that there was a lot of these types of atrocities on both sides of the fence in a multitude of previous wars that were never reported. If degrading bodies is how they show us disrespect boast to their muslim neighbors, perhaps similiar degradation on our part is what they'll understand and respect. I don't know because I don't have the perspective of those involved in the conflict. I don't understand their culture or what motivates them. I can understand them wanting to trade lives for lives but they overstepped themselves. The burning and mutilization of the contracted workers left me cold and I'm not really sure how badly I feel about the retaliatory efforts by other contracted workers. Aren't both incidents really outside the bounds of the Geneva Convention anyway?

[ScruU2wice]

Both evens were independent of each other though. They are rebel fighters undr no government only repersenting there want for us to leave. We are the soldiers sent by the US to liberate iraq. We cannot go an eye for an eye on this because they will never learn respect this way we're only gonna be more and more villified by them.

I don't doubt that people are "softened up for interrogation" but according to the pictures these guys were just humiliated. And further more i don't think anyone would think it wise to photograph these breakings of the geneva convention...

[Drew Katsikas]

To be brutally honest, I'm all for the ideals of the Geneva Convention, hope that all adhere to them and am not ususually about the "eye for an eye" attitude. I'm not sure, however, that the rules are always practical. I'm sure that there was a lot of these types of atrocities on both sides of the fence in a multitude of previous wars that were never reported. If degrading bodies is how they show us disrespect boast to their muslim neighbors, perhaps similiar degradation on our part is what they'll understand and respect. I don't know because I don't have the perspective of those involved in the conflict. I don't understand their culture or what motivates them. I can understand them wanting to trade lives for lives but they overstepped themselves. The burning and mutilization of the contracted workers left me cold and I'm not really sure how badly I feel about the retaliatory efforts by other contracted workers. Aren't both incidents really outside the bounds of the Geneva Convention anyway?

This was before Fallujah.

[Ronnie Raygun]

I don't agree that an eye for an eye is the right way to look at it.

I think our soldiers should abide by the geneva convention and those who don't should be punished....

BUT....I think this whole thing has been blown way out of proportion.

[Drew Katsikas]

Shutup, asshat. Just because you're a conservative doesn't mean you should pathetically attempt to mitigate this bullshit. When people get upset when I make you stand on one foot on an MRE box, attach wires to various parts of your body, including your tiny dick, and flip the on switch, then you can tell them they're blowing it out of proportion.

These people don't even get naked in front of their wives. It's stupid to us, but regardless, these soldiers have completley and totally degraded them. It's sick and wrong, and to think anything less is complete idiocy. Moron.

[Guderian]

When I was commanding an army on the Eastern Front in WWII, we had to commit atrocities, because of all the evil that communism stands for. We had no choice but to ruthlessly slaughter commisars, communist party officials, and random peasants to ensure that the old regime didn't try to come back. We also had to physically and mentally abuse any prisoners captured, as a lesson to those bolshevik fools to lay down their arms and surrender, because if all of them surrendered there would be too many of them to abuse them all.

It's completely the same situation in Iraq. Just a little psychological warfare. Besides, torture is always a good way to take one's mind of the war. Nazi soldiers were notoriously stress-free.

[davinxtk]

Whose character is that?










I need to know whether to get pissed off or laugh.

[Cosmo Electrolux]

When I was commanding an army on the Eastern Front in WWII, we had to commit atrocities, because of all the evil that communism stands for. We had no choice but to ruthlessly slaughter commisars, communist party officials, and random peasants to ensure that the old regime didn't try to come back. We also had to physically and mentally abuse any prisoners captured, as a lesson to those bolshevik fools to lay down their arms and surrender, because if all of them surrendered there would be too many of them to abuse them all.

It's completely the same situation in Iraq. Just a little psychological warfare. Besides, torture is always a good way to take one's mind of the war. Nazi soldiers were notoriously stress-free.

I'm strangely aroused.....:|

[mburbank]

So far, Naldo, there have been two prisoner deaths the army has ruled homicides.

so, the next question to look out for

8.) How long ago did the army rule that the deaths were homicides? Why is this only coming ouut now?
9.) An unamed soldier found guilty of murder was court martialed and discharged from the army. Will there be criminal prosecution? If I murdered someone, I'd certainly loose my job, but I'd probably also go to jail, and my name would be a matter of public record.

'Taunting', Naldo? 'Taunting'? If I tied your arms behind your back, put a hood over your head, stripped you naked and took photos of you simulating a blow job with another bound, naked guy, would you say I'd 'taunted' you?

That's kind of a moronic thing to say, which makes you a moron. See, THAT's taunting. making you press your johnson against a naked guys ass and taking pictures? Kind of outside the deffinition of taunting. Oh, and killing you while your in jail. That is some very heavy taunting. If these turn out to be totally isolated incidents in no way aprroved of, encouraged, or known about by intelligence or the chain of command, then you MIGHT say that apart from the enormous damage it does to our stated mission and the obvious dereliction of duty it reflects on the chain of command, that this is overblown. But since multiple investigations are ongoing, you might want to wait. Maybe , like the Iraqi prisoners themselves, the situation only 'simulates' overblown.

[mburbank]

"Miller said he had reviewed the U.S. Army's interrogation manual's list of 53 techniques for questioning prisoners and spoke to Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top general in Iraq.

"He has approved my recommendation to restrict some of those techniques," Miller said.

On Tuesday, the U.S. military said it was ordering troops to use blindfolds instead of hoods and requiring interrogators to get permission before depriving inmates of sleep or keeping them in stressful positions for extended periods — two of the most common techniques reported by freed Iraqis. "
-AP wire

I think a public airing of what these '53 techniques' are is in order, as are deffinitions of terms. What exactly does 'stressful position' mean? How long is an 'extended period'. Most people suppose that America does not torture POW's, but the deffinition of 'torture' is loose. I think a thorough descrription of the techniques we use to interrogate people, and the techniques used to 'soften' them prior to interogation would strike many, many people as torture.

You may recall pictures of naked man duct taped to a board. That would be John Walker Lindh, and American citizen. To me, that looked like something a civilzed country doesn't need to do. It looked more like vengance, something I understand the desire for but I don't understand the institutionalization of.

I think, at very least, the deliberate humiliation of prisoners in fairly awful ways, was something these people, however small in number, felt allowed to do. You don't take and circulate photos of secrets. It's obvious they enjoyed it, and it seems probable at very least a lot of people looked the other way.

Why should an Iraqi believe this was 'aberant'? Why would they now believe we were telling the truth about anything now? And if your argument is 'well, they hate us anyway', then what happens to the idea that we 'liberated' them and we're going to 'establish democracy'.

[Abcdxxxx]

What's freakish to me is that all we care about is why it took this long to investigate, and if there was an attempted coverup. The bigger issue is why these acts are so commonplace throughout the world, but especially in the Middle East. Okay, so our corn fed American kids put their own spin on it, and added in some College broomstick up the ass hazing to the mix. This type of stuff goes on every day unreported, and nobody shows much outrage. Our prisoners of war have never enjoyed much comfort in captivity, and while I don't think it's a very strong argument/excuse, it's true that Saddam did far worse things to far more Iraqi citizens. What you're seeing here is Arab oppurtunism over shadowing humanistic outrage....and yes I'd bet a good deal of Arabs are honestly just outraged period, but enough with the double standard, these events were horrid...put them alongside Fallujah, and so many more happening in the Sudan, and Congo, and so on, and so on, so that we can have zero tolerance for this shit. These were some disturbed kids, but this kind of cruelty shoudln't even be in the air.

[mburbank]

"so our corn fed American kids put their own spin on it, and added in some College broomstick up the ass hazing to the mix."

What the hell college did you go to?

"This type of stuff goes on every day unreported, and nobody shows much outrage."

A lot of good people show a lot of outrage all the time. Amnesty International has a large membership. Read Harold Pinter on Torture. If what you mean is the avergae cornfed american doesn't give a shit unless you rub their noses in it like a dog, well, I'd say that was pretty much correct, and I'd say this administration counts on it. Plus, it's easier to respond to sstuff that does get reported. We're lazy and e have short attention span. I'd gather by you calling this collegiate you think it's no big deal.

"while I don't think it's a very strong argument/excuse, it's true that Saddam did far worse things to far more Iraqi citizens."

If you don't think it's a stroong argument, why are you making it?

"These were some disturbed kids, but this kind of cruelty shoudln't even be in the air."

Like I said, it's hard to be outraged if something doesn't get reported. Personally, I think occupying a country and filling it's most notorius torture house with fresh inmates brings out the disturbed kid in a lot of people.

I agree, we don't give a flying fuck about the Congo and we damn well should. That's why I scream my head off any time W. and his pack of bastards say the war in Iraq had anything whatsoever to do with Humanitarian goals and liberating people. Here's the thing think you're missing. I find the Sudanese behavior outrageous. I'm very much against it. I'm not Sudanese. I am American. My tax money bought the damn wires and ice. If there was any offciial nodding and winking attatched to this, I'm part of it. The outrage of the rest of the world is of interest to me only in that it makes our job that much more impossible and for no good reason. It's one more fuck up in the sea of fuck ups that is our foreign policy. My outrage is entirely appropriatte. If it turns out there' not a lot more of this going on, if it turns out it really has stopped, if it turns out it wasn't condoned, if it turns out this didn't happen because of undertrained overburdened cornfed kids who don't have enough ground suppport because Rummy has a fucking theory about troop numbers, if it has nothing to do with privatising interrogation, if this really truly is just a few bad apples, I'll feel better about it. But if pigs fly out my ass I'll have free pork.

If in some way Ethnic cleansing in the Congo makes you feel better about this, I don't get it. When Abner Louima got a broomstick up hius ass, there was plenty of outrage. By and Large, Americans like to think one of the things that makes us the good guys is we don't shove broomsticks up the ass of prisoners.

say, here's a slogan that will really win hearts and minds:

"AMERICA; TORTURING FAR FEWER IRAQIS THEN SADAAM!"

[Abcdxxxx]

What's freakish to me is that all we care about is why it took this long to investigate, and if there was an attempted coverup. The bigger issue is why these acts are so commonplace throughout the world, but especially in the Middle East. Okay, so our corn fed American kids put their own spin on it, and added in some College broomstick up the ass hazing to the mix. This type of stuff goes on every day unreported, and nobody shows much outrage. Our prisoners of war have never enjoyed much comfort in captivity, and while I don't think it's a very strong argument/excuse, it's true that Saddam did far worse things to far more Iraqi citizens. What you're seeing here is Arab oppurtunism over shadowing humanistic outrage....and yes I'd bet a good deal of Arabs are honestly just outraged period, but enough with the double standard, these events were horrid...put them alongside Fallujah, and so many more happening in the Sudan, and Congo, and so on, and so on, so that we can have zero tolerance for this shit. These were some disturbed kids, but this kind of cruelty shoudln't even be in the air.

[mburbank]

I'm going to assume that was an inadvertant double post.

[mburbank]

"The number of prisoner deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan known to be under U.S. investigation or already blamed on Americans rose to 14 on Wednesday, including two additional deaths being scrutinized by the CIA 's inspector general. "
-AP wire

[kellychaos]

To be brutally honest, I'm all for the ideals of the Geneva Convention, hope that all adhere to them and am not ususually about the "eye for an eye" attitude. I'm not sure, however, that the rules are always practical. I'm sure that there was a lot of these types of atrocities on both sides of the fence in a multitude of previous wars that were never reported. If degrading bodies is how they show us disrespect boast to their muslim neighbors, perhaps similiar degradation on our part is what they'll understand and respect. I don't know because I don't have the perspective of those involved in the conflict. I don't understand their culture or what motivates them. I can understand them wanting to trade lives for lives but they overstepped themselves. The burning and mutilization of the contracted workers left me cold and I'm not really sure how badly I feel about the retaliatory efforts by other contracted workers. Aren't both incidents really outside the bounds of the Geneva Convention anyway?

This was before Fallujah.

Thanks. I didn't have all the facts on the situation at that point and I thought it was some kind of retaliatory effort on the part of the U.S. troops. Clearly, I'll have to do some more reading on the subject ... and no, I'm not being sarcastic ... just ill-informed.

[ScruU2wice]

This is gonna set intellegence back a ton, because now people who are interrogating will be afraid for there jobs and well being when they're trying to extract needed information from people. I know that alotta the techniques aren't very humane but they are suppose to get people to talk, and thats what they do. Now when people abuse these techniqes this is what happens people call into question the whole system. You can't act suprised that the Mighty Empir of Virtue delved its hands into underhanded techiniques of such means to get info...

See now this is where i like how we try to make the nazis look bad by saying they made death camps but not all germans knew of this just like not all of us knew of the treatment of prisoners. Just like alotta people are disgusted of this, i bet alotta of germans would have been disgusted with the death camps....

[mburbank]

Red Cross Sought Action on Prisoner Abuse
AP Wire

GENEVA - The international Red Cross said Thursday that it had repeatedly asked U.S. authorities to take action over alleged prisoner abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison before recent revelations about the way detainees were treated.

"We were aware of what was going on, and based on our findings we have repeatedly requested the U.S. authorities to take corrective action," said Nada Doumani, spokeswoman for the International Committee of the Red Cross, speaking from Amman, Jordan.

The ICRC, which visits prisoners held by coalition authorities in Iraq, had previously declined to comment publicly on conditions at the prison.

"We've been visiting Abu Ghraib prison since already from last year," Doumani told The Associated Press. "We are of course aware of the situation since we talk with the detainees privately.

"We get testimony from them. We visit all the premises in this place. We crosscheck information we receive from different detainees. Definitely we were aware of what was going on in Abu Ghraib.

Doumani said the visits have been taking place every five or six weeks since last year. The most recent visit was March 20, she said.

The scandal over treatment of prisoners began when CBS television broadcast pictures of smiling American guards with Iraqi prisoners in humiliating positions. That unleashed a huge international outcry.

The ICRC is designated by the Geneva Conventions on warfare to visit prisoners of war and other people detained by an occupying power. It traditionally discusses its observations only with the detaining authority, but has been under pressure to say whether it had specifically warned the United States about prisoner abuse before the photographs came to light.

Doumani didn't say specifically when it gave its first warnings, but that it was over a period of months.

[mburbank]

Hey, check out this description I found of the college Naldo and Abcdzxxx went to where they were 'taunted' and 'hazed'.

"[B]etween October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees. This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated by several members of the military police guard force. … The allegations of abuse were substantiated by detailed witness statements (ANNEX 26) and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence. … I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:

a. Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;

b. Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

c. Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;

d. Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

e. Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's underwear;

f. Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

g. Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

h. Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture; …

j. Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee's neck and having a female soldier pose for a picture;

k. A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

l. Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee …

These findings are amply supported by written confessions provided by several of the suspects, written statements provided by detainees, and witness statements. …

In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):

a. Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

b. Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

c. Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

d. Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

e. Threatening male detainees with rape; …

g. Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick."

[Buffalo Tom]

The way this is being handled is also exacerbating the situation. What is Bush doing sending out McClellan and Rice to apologize for the incident? He is the friggin' Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces! Since it was his troops who committed these acts, he himself should be apologizing to the Iraqi public and the American public. This guy is so ready to accept the accolades when everything goes right, yet he's the first to duck for cover when the shit hits the fan. Coward. >:

[mburbank]

I seem to recall him saying over and over again on Meet the Press that he was a war time president. Someone needs to sit him down and explain that commander in chief is a reference to his relationship with the armed forces. He is legally, oficially, the nations top military commander.

If it is appropriatte at all for anyone to issue an apology (and obviously the administration thinks it is, since several military officers in the chain of command have now done so, though notably not the prison commander at the tim of the abuse) it is approp[riatte for W. to do so.

I think this administrations motto should be "The Buck stops somewhere else."

[Buffalo Tom]

From the The Associated Press:

'White House aides said Mr. Bush had chastised Mr. Rumsfeld for failing to tell him about pictures of prisoner mistreatment.'

'In particular, Mr. Bush was unhappy about learning of the pictures only when they were broadcast, the aides said, insisting that they not be identified.'


Okay, was he unhappy over the abuse of the PoWs, or was he unhappy that photographic evidence of the abuse got out? No doubt that he was disgusted by the photos, like any other normal human being (I'll give Bush that slim benefit of doubt). However, the reports of his dressing-down of Rumsfeld seem to indicate he is more disappointed that the Pentagon and the Department of Defence was not able to control the now-unfolding scandal they way the Administration would have wanted it controlled. War-time president? More like no-good-at-any-time president.

[mburbank]

" There's another element to this. We're all talking in horror about a photo of a man in a hood standing on a box. But there's a context to this crime: While some agents of our government were making grown Iraqi men perform mock fellatio on each other, others were dropping 500-pound bombs on a small one-story town and in the process killing, among others, hundreds of women and children.

Which is the greater crime?"

-Matt Bivens, the Nation


That's a point I've tried to make earlier. War, no matter what your end goal is, is all about terror, pain, humiliation, and death. There is no getting around that no matter how hard you try. Some wars (some few) may be unavoidable. Some wars (some few) may yield the lesser evil. But ALL wars should be entered into with the utmost seriousness and anyone who treats them in any way like a football game or thinks the losses of the other side ar less painful and tragic than our own is no better than the flunkies that carry out dictators orders. All tey are is more lucky in the circumstances of their birth.

A very smart rabi once said "What you do unto the least of your brethern you do unto me." Saying shit like that was one of the things that got him beaten, humiliated and eventually tortured to death by an army occupying his homeland.

[mburbank]

BUSH APOLOGIZES!!

A day after he stopped short of apologizing, Bush told Jordan's King Abdullah II: "I was sorry for the humiliation suffered by the Iraqi prisoners and the humiliation suffered by their families.

"I told him I was as equally sorry that people seeing those pictures didn't understand the true nature and heart of America," Bush said, standing in the Rose Garden alongside Abdullah.

The president's statement went beyond his comment Wednesday that the abuse of prisoners was "abhorrent" and "does not represent the America that I know."

His lack of an apology Wednesday was striking, and his spokesman said later that the president was sorry. Bush gave voice to that sentiment Thursday.




I smell a FOCUS GROUP!!! Naw, I bet he just plum forgot to apologize on A-rab TV. Or maybe he felt worse about things today. Or maybe he just felt more apologetically inclined standing next to a real, live King.

[Abcdxxxx]

Would these Iraqi's have been tortured by Americans if the chambers didn't exist in the first place?

What the hell college did you go to?

Actually, it was my high school, and it made national news. Hazing, and broomsticks have a long history, and while Saddam's sons prefer catal prods, and vats of hot oil, our Americans seem to go with what they know. I wasn't condoning this as "good ole American fun".


A lot of good people show a lot of outrage all the time. Amnesty International has a large membership. Read Harold Pinter on Torture.

Good people and their outrage obviously isn't enough. Do nothings like yourself should wonder why Amnesty International is so ineffectual and biased. I haven't read Harold Pinter, so maybe you got one up on me here, but an article, or book is just an article or book. None of the above seemed to stop what happened.



I'd gather by you calling this collegiate you think it's no big deal.

Holy dipshit. Do you think the sick perpatrators of this crime thought they were doing dark magic satanic work? I'm pretty sure they thought they were horsing around, and towel snapping, because they were out of their fucking heads. Putting the act in the context of hazing doesn't mean I'm writing it off as merely a hazing incident....besides who the fuck even said I condone hazing or consider anything a "no big deal"? Everything's a big deal to me, that's why I write such long paragraphs. What's wrong with you? I thought you got some diapers.

If you don't think it's a stroong argument, why are you making it?

That wasn't my argument, but It should be considered regardless because there is some merit to it. Of course you're such a knee jerk that you think putting Saddam into context with these events is meant to be an excuse, suggesting these people are used to being tortured, so hey "no big deal". We shouldn't minimize what Saddam did, and what happened in Flallujah, because they set the tone for the lack of humanity on that ground. We may have tortured them, but Saddam built the torture chamber.

Personally, I think occupying a country and filling it's most notorius torture house with fresh inmates brings out the disturbed kid in a lot of people.

Any weird dreams you wanna confess to?

I find the Sudanese behavior outrageous. I'm very much against it. I'm not Sudanese. I am American. My tax money bought the damn wires and ice. If there was any offciial nodding and winking attatched to this, I'm part of it. The outrage of the rest of the world is of interest to me only in that it makes our job that much more impossible and for no good reason.

That's short sighted, and pretty ignorant of the bigger picture. The Sudanese Government and their actions is completely tied to the human rights climate of nations like Iraq, and Suadi Arabia. We have to give money, and get tangled up in their crimes before they become comparable? My point is that this shit goes on all over, and nobody stops it, and the news is filled with it. Our occupation is like sending your kid to a public school cafeteria and making him eat macrobiotic.

If in some way Ethnic cleansing in the Congo makes you feel better about this, I don't get it.

See, you think I was trying to downplay or rationalize this. I'm not. It's the opposite, I'm saying there are horrible things on a far greater scale going on everywhere, and it's pretty emberassing that Americans like yourself only care when our zipper gets caught in the act. It's because we allow attoricities to continue daily, and either do nothing, or wait till it's nearly to late, and then argue wether or not it's even our place to step in and do anything, that such inhuman behavior exists in the world. That it's wrong to look at these events, and talk of them in the same vain as Me Lai, because it belittles what's going on.

[ranxer]

abc you seem to be excusing our behavior because others do it.. you think it's ok that we send prisoners to other countries where the interrogation is extremely torturous?

do you think that because saddam killed 1.5 to 3 million iraqis we can go ahead and do the same? we may have killed more iraqis than saddam now if you count gulf war 1, the sanctions(500,000 children alone) and now gulf war 2. but that's ok because the worlds a dangerous place and democracy doesnt come cheap right?

i really can't get over how rummy said we are trying to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis with our techniques. what an ass.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I thought Thomas Friedman's Op/Ed in today's Time's hit it on the head: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/06/opinion/06FRIE.html

I know that tough interrogations are vital in a war against a merciless enemy, but outright torture, or this sexual-humiliation-for-entertainment, is abhorrent. I also know the sort of abuse that went on in Abu Ghraib prison goes on in prisons all over the Arab world every day, as it did under Saddam — without the Arab League or Al Jazeera ever saying a word about it. I know they are shameful hypocrites, but I want my country to behave better — not only because it is America, but also because the war on terrorism is a war of ideas, and to have any chance of winning we must maintain the credibility of our ideas.

[mburbank]

Abcdxx, don't blame me for how poorly you expressed yourself.

"Would these Iraqi's have been tortured by Americans if the chambers didn't exist in the first place?"

Not to put to fine a point on it, but sure. I think the maain reason we are actually over there, as opposed to reasons that might possibly justify us being there, have to do with W. issue with his father and a Neo con jones to flex a little muscle. I don't think any reason we're there has diddly squat to do with Sadaams record of human rights and I think your a baboon if you think there is a relationship.

" Do nothings like yourself"
Oh, oh, the sting. Here's what you know about what I do. Zippo.

"This type of stuff goes on every day unreported, and nobody shows much outrage. "
"Good people and their outrage obviously isn't enough."

Okay, A.) pick an argument, and B.) What's your point? Good people and their outrrage and their money and their lobbying and their votes may be inefectual in the force of lack of compassion, corporate greed and colonialsim, but it's a hell of a lot better than nothing. What have you got in mind, a children's crusade? What exactly would you suggest I 'do', as opposed to being a 'do nothing'. What, exactly do you 'do' about it?

'None of the above seemed to stop what happened. '
Again, what's your suggestion, apart from prolonged mutual wars of attrition.

"Okay, so our corn fed American kids put their own spin on it, and added in some College broomstick up the ass hazing to the mix."
"Putting the act in the context of hazing doesn't mean I'm writing it off as merely a hazing incident"

Again, don't blame me for how poorly you expressed yourself. And for the record, I don't think these folks thought they were towel snapping. Towel snapping and jumping on naked people and beating people to death fall in to different categories. I do not think the cornfed youngsters who did this thought it was all in good fun. I think also that they were encouraged to do it, and I promise you, if that's the case, the intelligence officers who asked that the prisoners be 'softened' don't think of themselves as frat boys even a little. At the very moment you are arguing that this needs to be seen in the continuum of barbaric human behavior, you keep mentioning that it's really not so bad when stacked up against other stuff. Well, yes. So what? It's your assumption other people don't care about Rwandans with their hands cut off and Israelis blown to bits on busses. In a lot of cases your right. I think George bush couldn't possibly care less and I think Sharon doesn't loose much sleep over the deaths of Palestinians or wonders if they were terrorists or not.

"That wasn't my argument, but It should be considered regardless because there is some merit to it."

That wasn't My argument, I just want to write it down a few times and reinforce it becuase I think it has merit but iit's not My argument I just think I'll say it again. It kind of sounds like your argument. C'mon, it's sorta your argument, I mean, you like it a little, right? Your not dating that argument, but youy wouldn't shove it out of bed for eating crackers, would you?

"putting Saddam into context with these events is meant to be an excuse,"
So... what is it, then? It's not an argument, it's not an excuse, it's... what exactly? Are you saying that if I want to feel revulsion for what we did I need to make some kind of official document of every political act of repression taking place on earth that I also find repellent? Is that something you do? I've written about a lot of shit that makes me sick. I write the most about the stuff done in my name as an american citizen. You don't have to agree, but that's the stuff that gets me the most, when bad shit happens and my money went to it and the leader of my country is saying "Hey, I did this for us!" I think that puts the blood on my hands, and that makes it more urgent to me. Do you think your teaching me something about the abominabal things people do to each other? Blow me.

"We shouldn't minimize what Saddam did, and what happened in Flallujah, because they set the tone for the lack of humanity on that ground. We may have tortured them, but Saddam built the torture chamber. "

That argument depends entirely on the idea that our being there is in some way connected with Sadaams brutality, which is utterly bogus. We armed him, we supported him actively when he was killing people we wanted him to kill, and we turned our backs quite happily on his torture chambers, and when we can't get a good confession out of our current prisoners we eexport them to allies who are more willing to torture than we are. Does objecting to what Saddam did minimize Hitler and Pol Pot becuase they were worse? Why not? Are you saying the real estate makes the difference? YOU see this as minimizing Sadaam, not me, bucko. Your desire to equate the two minimizes what we are doing.

"Any weird dreams you wanna confess to?"
No, actually. I was saying that sending young men and women into a war zone and asking them to kill people while they wonder if their going to die makes some of them go fucking nuts. It's a real good reason not to do it unless you have no choice at all. Why? Do you think any of these people would have towel snapped the way they did if they'd stayed home? I'm guessing not.

"We have to give money, and get tangled up in their crimes before they become comparable?"
Comparable? No. Culpable? Yes. I think there are a lot of ways we might effect human rights in the world far more effectively then sending our war machine in and preempting the shit out of them. So far it ain't working.

"Our occupation is like sending your kid to a public school cafeteria and making him eat macrobiotic. "
I'm sorry, maybe it's me, but that metaphor completly escapes me. Got any wierd eating disorders you want to confess to?

"My point is that this shit goes on all over, and nobody stops it"
Okay, A.) How do we 'stop' it, and how is that an argument for not objecting in the strongest possible way to bad shit we do?

" you think I was trying to downplay or rationalize this."
Hmmm, now, where would I get that idea
"I'm saying there are horrible things on a far greater scale going on everywhere,"
Oh, right there.

"it's pretty emberassing that Americans like yourself only care when our zipper gets caught in the act."
Excuse me, what do you know about 'american's like me' and their zippers? Embarassing? What do you mean by that?

"It's because we allow attoricities to continue daily, and either do nothing, or wait till it's nearly to late, and then argue wether or not it's even our place to step in and do anything, that such inhuman behavior exists in the world. "
Again, what are you suggesting? If I'm 'do nothing' what does a 'johnny action man' like you have in mind? 'Cause the white Man's Burden didn't work so well last time around.

"That it's wrong to look at these events, and talk of them in the same vain as Me Lai, because it belittles what's going on."
How? Because in this case we've only killed 14 people? Stop it now, make a big a fucking stink as possible and maybe we won't. I think you using phrases like towel snapping, hazing, and getting your jointstuck in the zipper belittles it. Oh, I know you're four square against all that shit, but it's not like hazing is murder. The comparison is belittling.

"AMERICA! WE TORTURE YOU WAY LESS!"

[Abcdxxxx]

" I think you using phrases like towel snapping, hazing, and getting your jointstuck in the zipper belittles it. Oh, I know you're four square against all that shit, but it's not like hazing is murder. The comparison is belittling. "

I didn't call it a hazing incident, I said that the seeds of the act resembled one. It was a cultural observation, not a rationalization or determination. It wasn't meant to condone or even compare acts. It's not even an orginal thought. To put that into context with a harsher outcome, doesn't belittle the actual crime itself. Perhaps you don't know enough about the word "hazing" or it's common usage understanding in relation to worse crimes? Weren't people smiling in some of those pictures? Do you know anything about pyschopathic murderors and their state of mind? Look into it.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with either side of this argument really, so I haven't a clue what fucking insanity you've built in your head. I guess I do agree with the snippet higlighted from Kevin's link though. Mostly though, I'm consumed with the idea that it's all really upsetting and tragic. My comments were meant to express concern that this is a societal problem on an International level, and I take the same concern with this as I do when an American journalist is executed in Iran for his religion, or when Women are executed by stonings as a result of Shar'ia law. It goes on regardless of any occupations involved, and it's something that needs to stop. If you want to think that goes against your concept of the cover up, or that I'm making an excuse for the murders, then you're just really narrow minded. Sometimes people can fight the same cause as you without using the same chanted slogans. Get a grip. I'm obviously not managing to articulate my point here, but you seem more interested in having someone to disagree with anyway. I'm also starting to wonder how bright you are.

[Abcdxxxx]

[quote="ranxer"]abc you seem to be excusing our behavior because others do it.. you think it's ok that we send prisoners to other countries where the interrogation is extremely torturous?

I'm saying that because others do it and get away with it on their own soil every day, it provokes a climate where devious minds will attempt the same shit. Got it? Good.

[mesobe]

yeah once I beat the shit out of my sister with a long chunk of iron. But I didnt get in trouble because I argued if the iron rod wasnt there, it wouldnt have happened in the first place.

[mburbank]

" To put that into context with a harsher outcome, doesn't belittle the actual crime itself."

Sadaam was bad, but he should be seen in the context of Hitler. Hitler was bad, but should be seen in the context of General Zod.

"Do you know anything about pyschopathic murderors and their state of mind?"
Got an odd dreams you'd like to share? Say, thanks for the education though. is there a degree in condesension?

"I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with either side of this argument really, so I haven't a clue what fucking insanity you've built in your head."
Riiiight. It's just that you find one side of the 'argument' 'freakish'. Are you familiair with backpeddling? You should look into it. I hear they offer a joint major with condesension.

"My comments were meant to express concern that this is a societal problem on an International level, and I take the same concern with this as I do when an American journalist is executed in Iran for his religion, or when Women are executed by stonings as a result of Shar'ia law. It goes on regardless of any occupations involved, and it's something that needs to stop."

And for the first time you express that point with a modicum of clarity. Don't blame me for your writing.

"Sometimes people can fight the same cause as you without using the same chanted slogans. "
I like that. Chanted slogans. Everyone chant along now. Unless I'm chanting alone. is there some chant you think I'm chanting wityh other chanters, because I haven't a clue what fucking insanity you've built in your head.

"I'm obviously not managing to articulate my point here,"
Yes
" but you seem more interested in having someone to disagree with anyway."
I found your subtext (ok, sure, this is really really bad what we did, but come on, it's nowhere near bad as all kinds of stuff other poeple do all the time.) disturbing. I've often treated you with respect over ideas we strongly disagree about. If that subtext was the opposite of what you meant I'm happy to leave it. But I don't think that undertone was question of 'how bright you are'. I think it's there, wether you care to face it or not. I'm familiar enough with arrogance to know it when I see it.

"I'm saying that because others do it and get away with it on their own soil every day, it provokes a climate where devious minds will attempt the same shit. "
So, are you saying
A.) people are bad
or
B.) We must stop the bad people!

What have you got in mind? I think the first thing to do to stop the badness is react swiftly and harshly to our own badness. I'm 'missing the larger picture'? Paint it for me.

[AChimp]

Mesobe actually just made a very good statement. :eek

[mburbank]

"We were dealing here with a broad pattern, not individual acts. There was a pattern and a system," said Pierre Kraehenbuehl, director of operations for the International Committee of the Red Cross.

Answering a question many lawmakers have posed, he said the abuse went beyond detainees held at the Abu Ghraib prison in the Baghdad area.

the ICRC said prisoners at Abu Ghraib were held naked in empty cells and beaten by soldiers. Three former military policemen at the prison told Reuters Thursday that abuse was commonplace.

The humanitarian group also said coalition forces fired on unarmed prisoners from watchtowers and killed some of them, as well as committing "serious violations" of the Geneva Conventions governing treatment of war prisoners.

-AP wire

[glowbelly]

this shit makes me so sad. i think as a country, america needs to collectively bow our heads and apologize for what has happened.

there's just no excuse for any of it.

[Abcdxxxx]

If this is a corruption and ethics issue, I'm more concerned with the ethics downfall at large.

It's very important we take reponsibility, and are outraged for whatever injustice goes on at the hands of our own people, but it's a good time to bring attention towards the horrors that go on everyday.

Saddam's abuses are relevant because he utilized torture tactics as a major method to keep control over various factions. The more things spiral out of control there, the more people have started to theorize that Iraqi's are used to a heavy hand. This isn't why Americans tortured Iraqis, but it should be noted that there is a desperation approaching.

[ScruU2wice]

This sounds really ignorant, but Why did bush apologize to the king of Jordan?

I don't think the peopel who don't like us in the middle east will ever like us, in this generation. They will always try to say that america is/was wrong. If they kill american soldiers they will say that america was weak and shouldn't have come to iraq, but if we kill some of there people they say that america is barbaric and shouldn't have come to iraq. There really isn't a way to win.

It doesn't make us killing anymore right because doing things like this won't really get us anywhere with arabs. And any form of sexual degrading is serious in the middle east and is anywhere for that case. You can't really ignore the fact that people were being put in sexual stances and forced to do other things they didn't want. Which looks really bad to people who are so iffy about these things...

[kellychaos]

I'm sick of the hypocrisy and having to serve as the "example" to the world in combat etiquette while the other side slaps our troops in the face daily and we have to take it and turn the other cheek. Then again, we ARE the occupying force which arrived unasked for. Man, this stuff is frustrating! >:

[Abcdxxxx]

This sounds really ignorant, but Why did bush apologize to the king of Jordan?

Because we violated our agreement that we'd send Jordan all the prisoners we wanted tortured so he could do it?

[mburbank]

My sounds pretty much like he's going to go with the 'few bad appes' scenario. I think that's pretty damn lame, concidering what the Red Cross had to say, not to mention Taguba. To my ear, his testimony sounded like he was just pretending those statements and documents aren't out there.

In addition, he stated for the record there was more to come. How much more, do you think? And if it was 'just a few bad apples' how did they mnage to generate so much material with none of the good apples stopping them for such a long time? For that matter, how about we get som outside observers in there to make sure it has all stopped?

[Abcdxxxx]

Well that's some logic there Burbank. I guess that means all Muslims are terrorists, all Blacks are gangbangers, all Irish drink green beer, and blah blah blah.

[glowbelly]

i was under the impression that the military was a command chain. that the lower ranks received orders from the higher ranks and then those commands were carried out. it's not a far stretch to assume that someone was ordering this stuff to happen.

i think that's what max is getting at here.

[AChimp]

There's an article in the paper about one of the female soldiers (Sabrina somethingorother) claiming that she was "just following orders."

It's already been shown in the past that you are very close to guiltless if you are "following orders," and that it's the CO's fault. But, if the person or persons who were handing out the orders can't be found, then these soldiers will be raked over the coals even more.

There was another article about how another woman's family is claiming that their daughter wasn't smiling about torturing Iraqi's, but was smiling at the person behind the camera. :lol

[ScruU2wice]

I like the one that claims she was at the wrong place at the wrong time in like 12 different pictures. It turns out she was pointing at the wrong people in front of the worng camera, too.

Conan did a lil sketch on it and it was pretty funny :/

[Miss Modular]

BUT....I think this whole thing has been blown way out of proportion.

It's like Rush said: those kids were just blowing off some steam!

[ranxer]

yea and like rummy said last year .. 'war is messy<shrug>, next question.

atrocities have been under reported since like day one of the war..
things like missles off the mark.. oops sorry, a dozen or so civies were splattered hundreds affected.. war is messy. that's ok, its for a good cause.. each atrocity has a name and a family.. each 'accident' that is virtually a statistical known beforehand creates unimaginable suffering.. and we expect them to let us say 'ok now PEACE you will be DEMOCRATIC or get MORE SUFFERING cause we're serious youknow, look here's some more how serious we are in the face <splatter> you who are left will sit down, shut up, be western or you'll get some more defence of freedom in the ass! haha

so now its overblown! as my local rep repeated yesterday the old 'the media is focusing on the negative blabla' war is messy.

dammit, we are creating NEW enemies with our cowboy foreign policy >:

here's a perspective that doesn't get enough attention: checkout 'can a nation lose its soul? http://www.ctschicago.edu/pdf/Nation_5-4-04.pdf

[VinceZeb]

I thought Thomas Friedman's Op/Ed in today's Time's hit it on the head: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/06/opinion/06FRIE.html

I know that tough interrogations are vital in a war against a merciless enemy, but outright torture, or this sexual-humiliation-for-entertainment, is abhorrent. I also know the sort of abuse that went on in Abu Ghraib prison goes on in prisons all over the Arab world every day, as it did under Saddam — without the Arab League or Al Jazeera ever saying a word about it. I know they are shameful hypocrites, but I want my country to behave better — not only because it is America, but also because the war on terrorism is a war of ideas, and to have any chance of winning we must maintain the credibility of our ideas.

You would think anything that was written in a leftist point would "hit it on the head".

Shut the fuck up, Kevin. There are too many lefties on this board that make you useless.

[AChimp]

Friedman isn't a liberal. :/

[ItalianStereotype]

okay, instead of saying that this is some sort of conspiracy that reaches to the highest climbs of power, couldn't we also consider that these soldiers were simply reservists who were on a power trip? not that this excuses any of their actions, but what good is it to continue to be so divisive?

[kellychaos]

The "just following orders" thing is obviously a cop-out. It's not as cut and dry as that. Even when you are in the military, orders have their limits. If a superior orders you to do something unlawful, then you can refuse. True, you may be subject to a military trial for refusing to follow orders but you will get a fair chance to plead your case.

[Abcdxxxx]

Even if explicit orders came down I doubt they involved orders along the lines of "make sure you take lots of pictures! And video! And be sure to smile! And point at them in every picture so we're sure who the victims are! And now here's where it gets tricky...we need them to form the shape of a pyramid, um, and then we need a few of them dead, but not all of them, okay, oh and please by all means, make sure you have some non-military people take part so it'll make our coverup process that much easier, thanks!!"

[mburbank]

"Well that's some logic there Burbank. I guess that means all Muslims are terrorists, all Blacks are gangbangers, all Irish drink green beer, and blah blah blah."
-ABC123

Yep, that's what I'm saying. I hate to say it, but unfortunately there's no space at all between "I doubt it's a few bad apples" and every single person in the military was involved. I hate this binary world we live in, but everything is either black or white. It's not at all possible that this came straight down the chain of command without involving everyone, and it's also not impossible that some important people above the level of enlisted folks encouraged and new about this unless everyone did. It's always one thing or the other, and that's what I meant.

If I'm wrong though, then it was just six people, and the lack of raining, lack of planning, involvement of the CIA, use of private contractors for interrogation, nodding and winking were all purely coincidental and not related in any way and the only people who bear any responsability at all are these six sick bastards, and now that they've beenstopped the problem must be totally over.

That's my logic. I hate it, but that's the way things work.

Oh, and Vinth, sell me your site, you cowardly fat ass.[/code]

[Helm]

I have to just repeat this bit, but where's the global outrage over the countless innocent deaths on this whole war? Hell, wait a moment, where's the moral outrage over the countless not-so-innocent deaths of this war? Weren't christians supposed to be appaled by the murder of any man? I know this may seem like a pretty basic argument, but why did it take torture for people to not stand for it? Is it as if the murder that somehow is justified as to be a means for a honourable end is excused by people of the Christian faith? I'm not trying to derail this conversation, but this just seems to fucking crazy to me that I need someone to make me understand. I mean, does this sound absurd? :

1. We hate murder.
2. Somebody in the middle east is killing people.
3. We hate him.
4. We will send our troops to kill him.

And everybody's ok up to this!

And then when some prisoner of war is tortured, this stirs up this moral outrage in everybody that supported this war. What, what did it take? Was it the pictures? Didn't people see the pictures of children casualities from this war anyhow? It can't be the pictures. And it sure as hell can't be because the deaths of thousands in the effort to occupy Iraq could somehow be said to be justified and necessary. Because if one thinks so, then it could be said that the torture, humiliation and murder of prisoners of war serves the purpose of collecting information that will go a long way towards solidifying the democratic effort in Iraq, and it thusly is as justified as this whole war. This doesn't make any sense!

[Abcdxxxx]

Well maybe you out to consider some in between options before you rest on such an extreme position. It wouldn't make you less compassionate.

Isn't there a military version of the thin blue line? They try and protect their own? So sure that incriminates at least some higher ups, but I think it's pretty deranged to think that an entire organization played an active part on such an absurdly horrid incident. My impression is the military has a bit of a frat atmosphere, and again, the concept of putting panties naked prisoners heads has the air of a prank verging on snuff film territory. You really think that's some US Army policy, that was part of the job interviews with outside contractors ??

The other element that plays a huge part were cameras. Soldiers are walking around video taping themselves in front of Saddam's palace, carrying cell phones and calling family from the battle field. That's a new phenomenon waiting to be abused during war time savagery.

[sspadowsky]

I'm not 100% certain, but it looks to me like Abcd may have somehow not been drenched by the thunderstorm of sarcasm pouring from Burbank's post.

[Abcdxxxx]

downpour or desperate spittle, i got the sarcasm, but i also got the implications of his not so sarcastic comments earlier in the thread. i not certain, but i think spadds just called burbank a joke 100% of the time.


"And if it was 'just a few bad apples' how did they mnage to generate so much material with none of the good apples stopping them for such a long time?"

oh, it's a total thunderstorm.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You would think anything that was written in a leftist point would "hit it on the head".

Shut the fuck up, Kevin. There are too many lefties on this board that make you useless.

Chimpy is correct. Friedman is in fact a neo-liberal who supported this war. And you, Vince, are in fact the dumbest person alive.

Dispute what Friedman said, or go lose some weight. Pick one.

[mburbank]

"You really think that's some US Army policy, that was part of the job interviews with outside contractors ?? "

Here's what I think the policy was.
"Do what ever you think will make these guys miserable. Whatever it takes, got me? Use your imagination, no ones looking. Just make sure these guys are in the mood to cooperate when we get them. "

Do you think if Lindy and her boyfriend had any inkling what kind of trouble they'd be in, they'd havce taken pictures? I'm not suggesting a speciffic policy of 'stack 'em naked in pyramids of exactly nine, and make sure that guy gets those womens pnaties on his head, we requistioned a box of the right size, it's all regulation" I am suggesting an officially sanctioned atmosphere of free for all without supervision or consequences.

At VERY BEST I'm suggesting a level of incompetence in supervsion and policy that allows for a free for all, and conspiracy or not, I think that reaches a little higher thn privates and specialists.

And , Acdxcpgrhstgf, your pathology is still showing. You're still using words like 'frat' and 'prank' and then saing 'now I'm not saying frats and parnks aren't very. very bad.'

Do you read the papers? The red cross says 'widespread' and 'pattern' over and over. They say we killed people, we raped women and we watched while Iraqi guards raped boys. How long before it turns out those Iraqi gurds used to work at the same prison doing the same thing for Sadaam? They say 90% of our detentions were mistakes, without merit.

Are murder and rape 'pranks'? Okay, I get you think I'm overreacting. hat sort of reaction do you think would be appropriatte? nd for the record, I totally agree with Helm. This is the most gratuitous horror of this war, but hardly the most outraageous.

[mburbank]

" Senator Lindsey O. Graham, Republican of South Carolina, who was given a classified briefing on the matter, has said new photos and videotapes provide evidence of the rape and murder of prisoners."
-Boston Globe

[ItalianStereotype]

Insider Report from NewsMax.com

3. Mystic: Iraqi Prisoner Photos a 'Set-up'

We usually don't report on psychic phenomena - "out there" as it is.

Still, we get some unusual observations over the transom from time to time.

One mystic we have covered is Elizabeth Baron of elizabethbaron.com, who seemed to have great revelations during the Washington sniper story. Days before police captured Muhammad and Malvo, Baron was on a national radio program (it was recorded) and said the feds had it all wrong: there were two shooters, one younger, another older; that they were motivated by religion; and that they were driving a blue car. At the time, FBI profilers said there was only a single white male conducting the killings, and reports had him driving a white van.

As it turned out, the older Muhammad and the younger Malvo, both Muslims, were captured in a blue car days later.

Interestingly, Baron e-mailed us early this week and said the revelation she got from a saint told her that "the people in the videotape who are doing the Iraqi prisoners wrong --- that is a setup."

We found it interesting that this reference to a "videotape" came days before Donald Rumsfeld and the Pentagon first said that the abuse scandal includes videotape of these incidents.

"I cannot understand why the public has not picked up this information," Baron's revelation offered, adding that there are some powerful forces behind this story.

"The authority goes pretty high up but it is a setup to make the President of the United States and to make America look stupid and to be seen with two faces," she said.

Here are some more revelations that we can't endorse but certainly find interesting:

"It is very important for the President to get to the culprit. The man [or woman] who is behind all that wears a tan uniform and has two stars on his shoulders. He is an individual who hates the American way and wants to see changes in America. He does not have an interest in winning a war. That is definitely not his interest. This man has been paid millions and millions of dollars to do this awful thing. It doesn't take someone who is really bright to look at these videos and see that they are staged. And everything that was done was staged so that it would look so ridiculous. It is important for the Intelligence to get to the bottom of this. They will find that an officer [which could be a man or a woman] who is very high up will have money put in a Swiss bank. It will not be in his name though. It will be in a woman's name who is connected with him/her and she is not American. She is not his wife; she is a girlfriend, but this money will be transferred around in years to come. This money was put together by a number of people who got together and planted this little scheme right in the middle of political battles in America. It was meant to make the President look silly. It is important for everyone to pray for peace because this war can go into another war and that could go into another war and as you know, two of the most dangerous places on earth are Iran and North Korea. These people have the ability to create mass destruction in many ways so it is important for everyone to pray for peace at this time."



....sigh

[mburbank]

With Rumsfeld at his side, Bush said his Cabinet officer was "courageously leading our nation in our war against terror...You are a strong secretary of defense and our nation owes you a debt of gratitude."

Bush's comments appeared designed to head off rising speculation that Rumsfeld would resign as both men braced for the anticipated release of more pictures and video images showing Iraqi prisoners being abused by American soldiers.

Blinking into the cameras, Rumsfeld stood ramrod straight at Bush's left shoulder with his hands clasped behind his back. Vice President Dick Cheney, who had over the weekend called Rumsfeld the best secretary of defense ever, also was there.
-AP wire

[sspadowsky]

downpour or desperate spittle, i got the sarcasm, but i also got the implications of his not so sarcastic comments earlier in the thread. i not certain, but i think spadds just called burbank a joke 100% of the time.


"And if it was 'just a few bad apples' how did they mnage to generate so much material with none of the good apples stopping them for such a long time?"

oh, it's a total thunderstorm.

I just thought you might've missed it on account of that cloud of arrogance that surrounds you.

[Bennett]

I can't believe the complete lack of shame and responsibility of this administration. Not to mention the smug "teflon" arrogance. If he were the "best secretary of defense ever." (is Cheney quoting the simpson's comic guy now?), there is no way that this shit would go down, period. As far removed as he may or may not be, the old saying of, "not on my watch" doesn't even seem to be a concern for these fuckers. This nation is turning to shit, and our entire administration has this "what are you going to do about it, bitch?" attitude. I really, sincerely hope that enough people get their heads out of their asses and get these clowns out of office.

[mburbank]

Yeah, I gotta say 'best ever' is kind of reaching no matter where you line up on the political spectrum, and I think Chenney knows that, and this kind of thing is what I mean about the administrations contempt for the citizenry.

I mean, you could say all sorts of stuff, you coud say Rummy has done very well under unprecedented and difficult circumstances (not that I;d say that, but you could make the argument) but to call him the best ever? That's just giving the public the finger. Plus, Chenney's quoted in todays paper as telling people to 'get off Rumsfeld case". Get off his case? What, is Chenney America's teenage son now? is he going to ask to borrow America's car keys?

And what about Rummy. He says he accepts full responsability, and that's great, but he makes it meaningless if he doesn't then step down. Full responsability? What does he mean, for what? For the torture itself? For the failure of oversight? For the atmosphere in which this all took place? He might as well say, 'yeah, I'm responsible, but I'm the best ever, now get off my case!'

By letting this drip, drip, drip, a revelation every few hours you loose any chance of regaining moral authority. Plus, even if there is no cover up at all, and even if we really cared about Iraqi human rights all along nd this isn't pattern, it's just a bizarre aberation, not getting everything on the table and firing Rumsfled makes it look like a cover up and look like we never gave a crap.

Rumsfeld says himself that he didn't get how serious this all was by reading descriptions of what was in the photos. Isn't that, all by itself, a really good reason to give him the boot? Plus, he's out there every day giving the world the impression that what's really the big problem here is that photos were taken and the world saw them. the problem isn't the photos.

[mburbank]

"In Afghanistan, the abuse of prisoners seems to have led to at least three deaths at U.S. interrogation facilities. According to U.S. military pathologists, two Afghan detainees died of "blunt force injuries" to "the lower extremities" and "legs" at Baghram in December 2002 and another Afghan prisoner died at a U.S. military camp in Kunar province in June 2003. Yet 18 months after the first deaths, a military investigation is still incomplete, and no broad inquiry like the Taguba probe has been launched into conditions at Baghram, according to a military spokesman in Kabul."
-Newsweek

There must have been a few bad apples in Afghanistan, too.

[Bennett]

>: Iraq and Afghanistan are apples and oranges, Max.

there were a few bad oranges in Afghanistan.

>: get your administration mumbo jumbo right, please.

[mburbank]

"This is not a few bad apples. This is a system failure, a massive failure," said Senate Armed Services Committee member Lindsay Graham, a conservative Republican who once helped to prosecute the impeached Bill Clinton.
-Newsweek

[mburbank]

Well, at least we can be certain the the New guy, Miller will clean this mess up.


"General Miller, in a press briefing, tried to show how he was now cleaning up interrogation procedures at Abu Ghraib. "We have approximately 50 approved interrogation techniques. They come from Army Field Manual 34-52," Miller said. Asked to explain what Miller meant, U.S. Army Intelligence Center spokesperson Tanja Linton said she would go away and inquire. She came back to report: "They have no idea what he is talking about." But a senior Defense Department official, speaking on background, confirms that there is a secret list of what he called "categories" of interrogation techniques—which, he says, can be used only with the case-by-case approval of Defense Secretary Rumsfeld."
-Newsweek

[kellychaos]

"Well that's some logic there Burbank. I guess that means all Muslims are terrorists, all Blacks are gangbangers, all Irish drink green beer, and blah blah blah."
-ABC123

Yep, that's what I'm saying. I hate to say it, but unfortunately there's no space at all between "I doubt it's a few bad apples" and every single person in the military was involved. I hate this binary world we live in, but everything is either black or white. It's not at all possible that this came straight down the chain of command without involving everyone, and it's also not impossible that some important people above the level of enlisted folks encouraged and new about this unless everyone did. It's always one thing or the other, and that's what I meant.

If I'm wrong though, then it was just six people, and the lack of raining, lack of planning, involvement of the CIA, use of private contractors for interrogation, nodding and winking were all purely coincidental and not related in any way and the only people who bear any responsability at all are these six sick bastards, and now that they've beenstopped the problem must be totally over.

That's my logic. I hate it, but that's the way things work.

Oh, and Vinth, sell me your site, you cowardly fat ass.[/code]

My beef was with the "following orders" cop-out, really. Were they pressured into their actions? If so, how much pressure (and from whom) was applied? In other words, if while I was in, someone from a lowly rank pressured me to do such things, they had better have been at a rank of full colonel with a gun to my head or else I would have told them to fuck off. While I admit this IS possible, Max, I have to admit that it sounds kind of "conspiracy theory" to me and that I had not seem such kinds of intimidation to commit unlawful acts in any of the commands that I was in. That being said; however, it IS kind of fishy that they were able to get away with such acts with no one above them in the chain of command being made aware of it.

[Abcdxxxx]

Burbank - My mistake... panties on the head has no illusions of frat prank whatsoever. Sounds like typical torture conduct.

Spadds, glad you can still spot arrogance while wallowing away in mediocrity over there.

[mburbank]

Abcdzxregdtc - My mistake... murder and rape have all the earmarks of frat pranks. Sounds like typical initiation hazing.

[Helm]

It makes me feel better that there are americans like you, burbank. I am not suggesting I agree with everything you say, but, god at least you're not so cynical as to disregard the moral bancruptcy that constitutes to turn a blind eye even to ONE casuality of an unfair war.

Isn't that the very least, most humble moral foundation on which us 'civilized westerners' usually all claim to share?

[mburbank]

There are lots of Americans like me. Not a vast majority, mind you, but I'm not alone. Thanks, though.

[CaptainBubba]

I dont really bother to post much anymore in this forum but jesus h christ on a stick. I opened and read this expecting only updates and the occassional exclamation of disgust or contempt. But lo and behold people are actually trying to defend this shit. Is it fun being so blindly loyal to a particular administration that you don't have to even hear what happens before you say you support it or will defend it? The fact ya'll exist scares the shit out of me frankly.

[Helm]

Yes. I keep reminding myself that.

[Abcdxxxx]

Abcdzxregdtc - My mistake... murder and rape have all the earmarks of frat pranks. Sounds like typical initiation hazing.

There are some murders and rapes in this world that do involve the earmarks of a frat pranks, and they don't make the rape and murder aspect any less of a rape or murder, any less horrrible, any less inexcusable, and any less tragic. They don't even lighten the motivations, or make light of the crime. If you can't discern between the use of colored syntax, and someone who is actually belittle these acts, then you're pretty worthless. Go run around with panties on your head as an act of soidarity and wonder why everyone's gonna look at you like it's rush week.

[Helm]

Abcdxxx: I can understand what you did not mean to do when you drew the hazing ritual comparison. But I cannot understand what you did mean to do. Why did you find such a comment worth making in the context of this discussion. Are you trying to say that since this seems to share the hazing ritual mentality, it somehow cannot reach up into the chain of command? I am a bit confused.

[mburbank]

I'd ask the same question, but I'm too worthless. because I can't discern his syntax. It has nothing to do with his poor communication skills or his insistence on using the same weak metaphor over and over all the while inisting his choice isn't belittling, it's... it's... uh, some other thing that the choice makes really clear, some point about how bad lots of stuff is and how it's not the point that one thing isn't so bad compared to something else, but you have to admit it isn't so bad.

Where's your metaphor line drawn at? If I said the Holocaust was a fraternity Prank gone wrong would that offend you? I think the image of a guy with panties on his head is overwhelming you. You seem really stuck on that. But that's the kind of worthless thing I think.

I wish we all lived in a world where your interpretation of syntax wasn't measure of ones worth. But maybe you didn't really mean that, Abcgdgatetxgbx. Maybe you're just a very angry guy who's having a harder time expressing complicated thoughts and feelings than he wants to admit.

Maybe I'm alone. Maybe everyone but me has some clear idea where you're going with the whole non belittling comparison of frat praanks, rape and murder. I've got no clue what your getting at. maybe someone else here can parse your syntax a little better.

[kellychaos]

From what I've read most recently, it sounds like that command had a severe breakdown in morale and authority. So, in effect, the commanders were responsible for what happened there in a roundabout way. Apparently, there was a young enlisted soldier who was trying to bring the events to those in command but the command, realizing they were in a tough spot, hushed him and tried to keep a lid on the matter and "handle" things as best they could without those outside the chain of command finding out. Those outside the chain DID find out; however, and it made the situation look more like a cover-up than ever before because they did have knowledge of the situation and didn't report it WHEN IT HAPPENED. I'm not saying that the commanders openly directed the troops to specific action but maintaining their authority over the troops and keep up their morale IS their job and they failed. Reporting such incidents IS their job and they failed. That's about as far as I would reasonably go in indicting anyone in command unless I hear or read otherwise. I just tend to believe it the actions of a few twisted individuals who were over-stressed and left to do heinous things because poor command was exercised.

[sspadowsky]

Burbank - My mistake... panties on the head has no illusions of frat prank whatsoever. Sounds like typical torture conduct.

Spadds, glad you can still spot arrogance while wallowing away in mediocrity over there.

Man, it's fun when people do my work for me.

Keep going, Abcdxprxixcxkx, continue to tell us why anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant and wrong.

[Stabby]

Cryptome.org has the Red Cross report up.

The main places of internment where mistreatment allegedly took place included battle group unit stations; the military intelligence sections of Camp Cropper and Abu Ghraib Correctional Facility; Al-Baghadadi, Heat Base and Habbania Camp in Ramadi governorate; Tikrit holding area (former Saddam Hussein Islamic School); a former train station in Al-Khaïm, near the Syrian border, turned into a military base; the Ministry of Defense and Presidential Palace in Baghdad, the former mukhabarat office in Basrah, as well as several Iraqi police stations in Baghdad.


Must be a bad season for apples.

[Abcdxxxx]

http://www.stophazing.org/

Hazing Defined

“Hazingâ€� refers to any activity expected of someone joining a group (or to maintain full status in a group) that humiliates, degrades or risks emotional and/or physical harm, regardless of the person's willingness to participate.Â* In years past, hazing practices were typically considered harmless pranks or comical antics associated with young men in college fraternities.Â* Today we know that hazing extends far beyond college fraternities and is experienced by boys/men and girls/women in school groups, university organizations, athletic teams, the military, and other social and professional organizations. Hazing is a complex social problem that is shaped by power dynamics operating in a group and/or organization and within a particular cultural context.Â*
Hazing activities are generally considered to be:Â* physically abusive, hazardous, and/or sexually violating.Â* The specific behaviors or activities within these categories vary widely among participants, groups and settings.Â* While alcohol use is common in many types of hazing, other examples of typical hazing practices include: personal servitude; sleep deprivation and restrictions on personal hygiene; yelling, swearing and insulting new members/rookies; being forced to wear embarrassing or humiliating attire in public; consumption of vile substances or smearing of such on one's skin; brandings; physical beatings; binge drinking and drinking games; sexual simulation and sexual assault.
Some common definitions and examples of hazing are below:
In the Alfred/NCAA survey of college athletes, hazing was defined as:
"any activity expected of someone joining a group that
humiliates, degrades, abuses or endangers, regardless of the person's willingness to participate. This does not include activities such as rookies carrying the balls, team parties with community games, or going out with your teammates, unless an atmosphere of humiliation, degradation, abuse or danger arises."
“Hazing is an activity that a high-status member orders other members to engage in or suggests that they engage in that in some way humbles a newcomer who lacks the power to resist, because he or she want to gain admission to a group. Hazing can be noncriminal, but it is nearly always against the rules of an institution, team, or Greek group. It can be criminal, which means that a state statute has been violated. This usually occurs when a pledging-related activity results in gross physical injury or death� (from Hank Nuwer's book Wrongs of Passage , 1999, p. xxv).
Hazing is defined by the FIPG (Fraternity Insurance Purchasing Group) as:
"Any action taken or situation created, intentionally, whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule. Such activities may include but are not limited to the following: use of alcohol; paddling in any form; creation of excessive fatigue; physical and psychological shocks; quests, treasure hunts, scavenger hunts, road trips or any other such activities carried on outside or inside of the confines of the chapter house; wearing of public apparel which is conspicuous and not normally in good taste; engaging in public stunts and buffoonery; morally degrading or humiliating games and activities; and any other activities which are not consistent with fraternal law, ritual or policy or the regulations and policies of the educational institution."
Will Keim, Ph.D., "The Power of Caring"

[Sethomas]

Density (n): An expression of mass per unit volume.

[AChimp]

So, what? Were these U.S. soldiers initiating the Iraqis into their secret club or something and we're not finding out about it?

I find the "this is along the same lines as hazing" argument to be weak at best.

When prison guards HERE start abusing prisoners, they are dealt with as soon as possible. No one starts making excuses. The fact that many of the Iraqi prisoners are being held without being charged or convicted of anything makes this even worse, IMO.

[mburbank]

Chimp beat me to the point. Hazing, as ugly as it can be, is geared toward making someone a member of a group, embracing them. It's twsited, but that's the goal.

The goal here was revenge, humilation, sadism for it's own sake, degredation and 'softening' for interrogation.

A person who's hazed in a frat or the army is part of the process. It's concensual. There's also the expectation of a frat pledge that they won't die or be maimed, something the prisoners didn't enjoy. People joining skull and bones make a choice to be spanked and possibly sodomized so that later they can control the world.

I think hazing is repulsive and sick, and I can't imagine wanting any part of an organization that would use it to forge bonds of belonging. Hazing sometimes goes wrong, but I don't think the intent of hazing is ever to kill or maim, and when rape bcomes a part of it, I think we're outside the realm of hazing and in the realm of crime. A frat pledge is supposed to have the chance to quit.

I get that you think it's all part of a continuum. Hazing bad, torture even badder, just further down the same slippery slope. I disagree strongly. I dislike Liver, it makes me puke. Arsenic on the other hand is not food. I think your equation between what went on in Iraq and Hazing, no matter how brutal and out of control, is seriously offensive. I think you're hugely wrong. I think it belittles torture. I think it is a dangerous equation, even if what you mean is that hazing is a really bad thing. I think a person who insists on making that equation is fundamentally missing the point . Unless you think the guy who got beheaded got to wear a terrorist letter jacket afterward and behead a few plebes himself the next year.

[Perndog]

But that's exactly what happened, Max. Didn't you see the pictures of him in his spiffy new jacket and his head sewn back on, gleefully maiming peasants with a scimitar?

[Abcdxxxx]

It wasn't an argument, it was an observation.

Burbank, If you served arsenic and liver on the same plate, and both were harmful to you, wouldn't it be fair to recognize both with some importance, even though they might not be equally as harmful.

I was just waiting for Burbank to try and relate hazing to the Berg tragedy...I mean, after all, he ran out of excuses to evoke the Holocaust. There was nothing to suggest the imagery of hazing in that situation... as opposed to our soldiers who went about their torture and murder as if they were just goofing off in the snuff remake of Porkey's. The crimes were of drastic severity, yet they added a whole pyschotic "dude, look what I'm making them do, this is fucked up, here take a picture" approach that's important to recognize because it's unique. You're pretty immature if you believe one belittles a tragic crime by aknowledging the potential mindset of it's perpatrator.

Since you brought up the Holocaust... People refer to the Nazi's "using Jews, and Gypsys as target practice". Are they minimizing the deaths when they say this? Are they claiming Jews and a Gypsys are merely targets and not people? Or are they just intelligent enough to illustrate a concept through descriptive words, as an observation ??

Of course, you're not this stupid, but I'm happy to play along if it means you show some more compassion for the victims rather then take the opportunity to gloat over the criminal role our administration played in this.

[mesobe]

Its very amazing to me that the US government are even trying to make up reasons for these crimes.

[Perndog]

Way to catch the analogy, Zyxwvut.

Liver tastes bad, but is not harmful at all. Arsenic is harmful.

THERE IS A FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE.

I won't even bother pointing out again what the analogy refers to. You're already lost way out there in the woods.

[mesobe]

arsenic and liver? what the FUCK are you talking about?

[mburbank]

'It wasn't an argument it was an observation'.

Oh. okay. Well, I guess it wasn't ugly and wrong then.

s for 'using Jews as target practice', I think your'e missing why that metphor is functional. It means they had no regard for Jews as living human beings. How do you see your 'hazing' metaphor as working exactly.

Uhm... ell, see, the MP's saw the prisoners as plebes and... no that doesn't make much sense. Uhr, the MPs wanted to form a bond with... no, no... Uhmm the MPs were stupid and cruel like Frat boys! That's it! That's a good enough observation for a metaphor.

You know what Avxcgfeytjxue? Speaking with you is a really distasteful experience. It's not even worth it to make fun of you. I think you are on the same plate as arsenic and liver.

[Abcdxxxx]

An observation isnt a judgement. Grow up. I already expressed my judgement, and horror of these events elsewhere in these posts, but you're too preoccupied with disagreeing with someone.

I hope you get your funny back, because it does well to hide what an idiot you truly are. The funniest thing here is your attempt to take some moral high ground. You don't care about Iraqi's, but I'm glad I could provoke some sentiment. Toodles.

[mesobe]

youre all fucking stupid

[AChimp]

WTF? Now Porno Alphabet is recanting? As I look through this thread, all I see is "hazing this" and "hazing that" spewing forth from him, and only now we find out that he really thinks the torture was "pretty bad."

Why don't you just come out and admit that you used a really shitty analogy in the first place?

[ScruU2wice]

youre all fucking stupid

nice avatar...

[Abcdxxxx]

Chimp, I think It would be a lot easier for you to admit you didn't understand it. Done.

Mesobe, you're lucky the internet detours me from spitting in your face.

[Brandon]

IF THIS THREAD DOESN'T SETTLE DOWN I'M GOING TO START SODOMIZING PEOPLE WITH CHEMICAL LIGHTS AND PERHAPS A BROOMSTICK!

[mesobe]

Mesobe, you're lucky the internet detours me from spitting in your face.

your tough.

[AChimp]

Chimp, I think It would be a lot easier for you to admit you didn't understand it. Done.
I understand that you were speaking out of your ass. Is that how I'm supposed to interpret it?

You have failed in every way to relate the torture of prisoners to the act of hazing.

[Abcdxxxx]

This will be the last time I rephrase this for the confused....

Sodomy, humiliation with Womens underwear, stripping victims down, verbal abuse, and holding forced poses for extreme periods of time are hallmark tactics of hazing, and unique to crimes we label hazing-like, a term commonly associated with prison abuse in cases when relevant. Torture, beatings, and murder, are not to be minimized or written of as simply pranks or hazings, but in specific cases such as this one, it would be a diservice to ignore the relevance and reflections of hazing like activities or mentalities, inherent with the tragedy. Curing this problem will involve more then firing Rumsfeld.

[sspadowsky]

This will be the last time I rephrase this for the confused....

Sodomy, humiliation with Womens underwear, stripping victims down, verbal abuse, and holding forced poses for extreme periods of time are hallmark tactics of hazing, and unique to crimes we label hazing-like, a term commonly associated with prison abuse in cases when relevant. Torture, beatings, and murder, are not to be minimized or written of as simply pranks or hazings, but in specific cases such as this one, it would be a diservice to ignore the relevance and reflections of hazing like activities or mentalities, inherent with the tragedy. Curing this problem will involve more then firing Rumsfeld.

If, after they were tortured, the Iraqis were given housing on fraternity row, lots of beer and shots, a stupid chapter "fight song," and perhaps an intramural volleyball team, I might agree with you; otherwise, it's a shitty analogy.

[Perndog]

The only thing you prove by continually pointing out these "hallmarks of hazing" is that the perpetrators were young, playful, cruel assholes as opposed to old, jaded cruel assholes.

And did you ever stop to think that half of the point of those specific abuses is that they are particularly degrading to Muslims and their sexual taboos? Huh? No, you were too caught up in your frat boy analogy. DO SOME FUCKING BRAIN WORK AND QUIT REPEATING YOURSELF.

[punkgrrrlie10]

and now they can join the fight against us too: http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/14/iraq.abuse/index.html

Lemme think, if I rape, torture and humiliate some iraqis during the middle of trying to keep their country under control b/c they hate us...let's just release some prisoners!!!! GREAT IDEA!

[kellychaos]

Mesobe, I find your avatar offensive no matter what kind of "statement" you're trying to make.

[mburbank]

I guess I better grow up and be less stupid.

All of us here understand what you're saying, absdvctgedbdb. Except for the part about punishing Rumsfeld not solving things (and I don't think anyone said it would.) I think your 'observation'/analogy syucks, and I think your continued deffnese of it (and I understood you te first time) indicates what a prick you are.

This is what's called a disagreement. You have an idea. I get the idea. I think your idea is wrong. I think the idea you have reveals you to be a prick. I think as in observation it illuminates nothing. I think that becuase these accts in some cases shared some aspects of Hazing is a fairly shallow aspect to lock onto. It shared some aspects with gay porn too, but no one's calling these 'gay porn like' offenses. Becuase it would be stupid, offensive and belittling to do so.

If you think that someone disagreeing with you means they need to grow up, then yeah, I guess I do. I understand what you are saying. I think it means you're an idiot.

[kellychaos]

An investigation is the very least they can do and the administration is acting as if they're pulling out all the stops and doing something novel and profound. Besides, the more I see that humanity vacuum (aka Rumsfeld), the more I think that a he and some of his staff are probably, in a big way, responsible for the mindset of the military leadership over there either in terms of agreement or by intimidation. It's gauling to me that he acts suprised by these types of events when this mindset and the standard of living he provides for the soldiers is partly to blame.

[Abcdxxxx]

You didn't simply disagree, you acted as if you couldn't fathom the connection or the signifigance. Perndog's reaction is classic immaturity. By using some descriptives, he thinks I haven't aknowledged other aspects such as the religious degradation aspect. They are all important bits to be considered, and to talk about here. I think it's you guys who are belittling the events, and reacting in an opportunistic manner.

There's been one post about Mesobe's avatar, and a billion about my "offensive" use of the word "hazing". Obviously you all have great priorities.

[mesobe]

Mesobe, I find your avatar offensive no matter what kind of "statement" you're trying to make.

I find your mom offensive. dont fucking look at it then.

Bill Waterson would be offended that you perverted one of his creations.

[punkgrrrlie10]

you're a dumb ass.

[Perndog]

You didn't simply disagree, you acted as if you couldn't fathom the connection or the signifigance. Perndog's reaction is classic immaturity. By using some descriptives, he thinks I haven't aknowledged other aspects such as the religious degradation aspect. They are all important bits to be considered, and to talk about here. I think it's you guys who are belittling the events, and reacting in an opportunistic manner.

There's been one post about Mesobe's avatar, and a billion about my "offensive" use of the word "hazing". Obviously you all have great priorities.

Gosh, I remember how fun high school was, when to call someone immature was the ultimate insult.

If you've acknowledged other factors in the issue, why don't you talk about them a little instead of driving your tired hazing idea further into the ground?

Oh, and people don't use descriptives to think. We use them to describe. Learn some grammar and people will like you better.

[Abcdxxxx]

Stop worrying about my popularity, and go back to pretending you care about the Iraqi's.

[mburbank]

"You didn't simply disagree, you acted as if you couldn't fathom the connection or the signifigance."

Wrong. I can't fathom who someone who wasn't a dick would find the connection significant in any way shape or form. It's shallow, uninformative, callow and useless. I think it shows a striking lack of understanding.

Your insistence that my opinion HAS to stem from not getting you is arrogant and you constantly confuse familiarity with piles of details with intelligence.

[mesobe]

man, it reallly, really sucks to be american right now. I feel for all of you

[Abcdxxxx]

Being informed has it's merits.

Anyway you must have really struggled through theory class. You're knee jerk reaction is to assume I was writing off the tortures as hazing the way Rush, and many Conservatives have, because well, if you use the same language, you must be the same stripe, even if you're saying something totally different. If we're talking arrogance, h'bout your "with us or against us" attitude ? Why, I'd say it's rather GW of you.

Now that we've exhuasted the topic of me and my personality defects (because after all kids, this is a message board, and I'm not prone to spending time at your Mocker jamborees, or giving you love advice in the other forums) why don't we discuss the Iraqi's again? You know, not to be informative or nothing but....

4,000 prisoners died in Abu Ghraib prison in 1984 alone. 122 political prisoners were killed in one month of 2000. Around 130 women were beheaded between June and April of 2001. Friday prayer for Sh'ites was illegal, and the majority of torture victims were from the religious party.

So Burbank.... what was that bullshit you were saying at the beginning of this post about people caring, the writing of books, and Amnesty International? Unlike Conservatives, I'm not saying Saddam's actions excuse our own. I don't want to see the US acting in even the slightest resemblance of Saddam's torture houses, (they should be closed and destroyed, not preserved like Warsaw) but I do think you need a wake up call if you're going to act like you give a shit, because this moral equivalency of yours comes off as souless pandering.

[Anonymouse]

This is the stupidest war we have ever fought.

"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

[mburbank]

I agree. I'm done.

[Perndog]

Stop worrying about my popularity, and go back to pretending you care about the Iraqi's.

I'm not the liberal here. I never spoke a word about morals or sympathy for them or for us or for whomever. Pay attention.

I'm done too, though.

[kellychaos]

Bill Waterson would be offended that you perverted one of his creations.

I think that his parents would be upset that you desecrated one of THEIR creations. Think about it. He's a human being not a charicature, a political symbol, ext and you, sir, are an ass.

[mburbank]

If you don't feel like reading this whole article, the main points are:
1.) More cases under investigation than previously acknowledged
2.) Another disk of photos found
3.) A red cross report sent down the chin of command and never followed up on.


Army General Says U.S. Has 75 Prison Abuse Cases


By Alan Elsner
Reuters

WASHINGTON - The U.S. military has investigated 75 cases of abuse of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan since late 2002, suggesting that mistreatment was more widespread than previously acknowledged, the head of the U.S. Central Command said on Wednesday.

Army Gen. John Abizaid, who is responsible for military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, told the Senate Armed Services Committee there were systemic problems at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, where U.S. personnel took photographs of detainees being abused and sexually humiliated that have shocked and angered Americans and fueled anti-American anger overseas.

"The total number of detainee abuse cases that have been investigated since I believe the beginning of the conflict in Afghanistan is around 75," Abizaid told the committee.

He said the army was still investigating several homicides in Afghanistan that went as far back as December 2002 and which needed to be resolved quickly.

"Abuse has happened in Afghanistan, it's happened in Iraq, it's happened at various places. I think the question before us: is there a systemic abuse problem with regard to interrogation that exists in the Central Command area of operations," Abizaid said.

He promised to follow the trail of evidence wherever it led and hold accountable those who are responsible

Committee Chairman John Warner told the hearing the Defense Department has located another disc of images related to abuses of Iraqi detainees.

"I've just been informed ... that another disc of pictures has been located, and I'll soon advise the committee on the conditions under which and the timing they can be viewed," the Virginia Republican said.

Also testifying were Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of ground forces in Iraq, and Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, deputy commander for detainee operations in Iraq.

Sanchez said that his order putting an intelligence officer in tactical control of the notorious Abu Ghraib prison, previously used as a torture center under former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, was for security purposes. It did not place military police at the jail under the control of intelligence officials.

He also said he had issued several directives in 2003 and 2004 making it clear prisoners were to be treated in accordance with the Geneva Conventions and requiring that "all interrogations be conducted in a lawful and humane manner, with command oversight."

FACE PUBLIC OPINION

Some of the military police have charged that they were ordered to help "soften up" prisoners for interrogation.

Warner said it was time for top U.S. military leaders to face American and world public opinion.

Sen. Carl Levin, a Michigan Democrat, asked about warnings from the International Committee of the Red Cross that Iraqi prisoners were being abused that surfaced as early as May 2003, months before the U.S. military launched its first investigation.

Abizaid said he was aware of the report and sent it for comments to a lower-ranking officer but never received a written reply. He acknowledged that this suggested there was a problem in the way the U.S. military handled Red Cross complaints.

[Mockery]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/may2004/tort-m18.shtml

[Cosmo Electrolux]

wow...I would LOVE to see Rummy and Shrub in a war crime tribunal....

[mburbank]

"The defense secretary also met with 12 senators over breakfast Tuesday morning and, sources said, he criticized the hearings, saying they were becoming a distraction to the war effort in Iraq.

"He did express frustration that, at some point, additional hearings are counterproductive in terms of the optimal use of his time and the time of the combatant commanders in fighting and winning the war on terror," said Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas."
-Ap wire

Seriously? These hearings aren't an optimal use of his time? Well, since his testimony is clearly called for, maybe he should resign.

[Cosmo Electrolux]

"I'm too busy to be brought up on charges. If you put me in prison, the terrorists win"

[mburbank]

Huh. I didn't know bad apples could come in patterns or be wide spread. I thought the whole thing was there were just a few bad apples in a bunch.

As recently as a month ago, we were still interrogating prisoners in ways which lead to them dieing from blunt force trauma. The only way to get this over with is to put it all on the table now. Every day this drags on makes things worse.







Report: U.S. Army Survey Cites Wider Prisoner Abuse



WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A U.S. Army synopsis of deaths and mistreatment involving prisoners in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan shows a pattern of abuse involving more military units than previously known, The New York Times reported on Wednesday.



The summary, dated May 5, was prepared by the Criminal Investigation Command at the request of Army officials, according to the newspaper.

It outlines the status of investigations into 36 cases, including the continuing probe into the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison on the outskirts of Baghdad, the paper said.

The Iraq cases date back to April 2003, the Times reported. In an incident reported to have taken place last month, a prisoner detained by Navy commandos died in a suspected case of homicide blamed on "blunt force trauma to the torso and positional asphyxia," the paper said.

The U.S. forces' treatment of prisoners has come under scrutiny because of revelations about the physical and sexual abuse of Iraqi inmates at the Abu Ghraib prison. Seven U.S. soldiers have been charged with abusing Iraqi prisoners there.

In a speech on Tuesday, President Bush said the prison "became a symbol of disgraceful conduct by a few American troops who dishonored our country and disregarded our values," and said the notorious prison would be demolished as a "symbol of Iraq's new beginning."

One of the oldest cases listed in the May 5 document involves the death of a prisoner in Afghanistan in December 2002, the paper said.

The document said enlisted personnel from a military intelligence unit at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and an Army Reserve military-police unit from Ohio are thought to have been "involved at various times in assaulting and mistreating the detainee," according to the Times.

Members of the 223rd Military Intelligence Battalion, which is part of the California National Guard, were accused of abusing Iraqi detainees last spring in Samarra, north of Baghdad, the Times reported.

The Army summary said the unidentified enlisted personnel "forced into asphyxiations numerous detainees in an attempt to obtain information" over a 10-week period, according to the paper

[kellychaos]

The scandal is widening while the noose is tightening. An inverse relationship?

[mburbank]

AP: Intelligence Agents Accused in Abuse

By MATT KELLEY, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Several U.S. guards allege they witnessed military intelligence operatives encouraging the abuse of Iraqi prison inmates at four prisons other than Abu Ghraib, investigative documents show.

Â*

Court transcripts and Army investigator interviews provide the broadest view of evidence that abuses, from forcing inmates to stand in hoods in 120-degree heat to punching them, occurred at a Marine detention camp and three Army prison sites in Iraq (news - web sites) besides Abu Ghraib.


That is the prison outside Baghdad that was the site of widely published and televised photographs of abuse of Iraqi detainees by Army troops.


Testimony about tactics used at a Marine prisoner of war camp near Nasiriyah also raises the question whether coercive techniques were standard procedure for military intelligence units in different service branches and throughout Iraq.


At the Marines' Camp Whitehorse, the guards were told to keep enemy prisoners of war — EPWs, in military jargon — standing for 50 minutes each hour for up to 10 hours. They would then be interrogated by "human exploitation teams," or HETs, comprising intelligence specialists.


"The 50/10 technique was used to break down the EPWs and make it easier for the HET member to get information from them," Marine Cpl. Otis Antoine, a guard at Camp Whitehorse, testified at a military court hearing in February.


U.S. military officials say American troops in Iraq are required to follow the Geneva Conventions on POWs for all detainees in Iraq. Those conventions prohibit "physical or moral coercion" or cruel treatment.


The Army's intelligence chief told a Senate panel this month that intelligence soldiers are trained to follow Geneva Convention rules strictly.


"Our training manuals specifically prohibit the abuse of detainees, and we ensure all of our soldiers trained as interrogators receive this training," Lt. Gen. Keith Alexander told the Senate Armed Services Committee (news - web sites).


The Marine Corps judge hearing the Camp Whitehorse case wrote that forcing hooded, handcuffed prisoners to stand for 50 minutes every hour in the 120-degree desert could be a Geneva Convention violation. Col. William V. Gallo wrote that such actions "could easily form the basis of a law of war violation if committed by an enemy combatant."


Two Marines face charges in the June 2003 death of Nagem Sadoon Hatab at Camp Whitehorse, although no one is charged with killing him. Military records say Hatab was asphyxiated when a Marine guard grabbed his throat in an attempt to move him, accidentally breaking a bone that cut off his air supply. Another Marine is charged with kicking Hatab in the chest in the hours before his death.


Army Maj. Gen. George Fay is finishing an investigation into military intelligence management and practices at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere in Iraq. Alexander and other top military intelligence officials say they never gave orders that would have encouraged abuses.


"If we have a problem, if it is an intel oversight problem, if it is an MP (military police) problem, or if it's a leadership problem, we have to get to the bottom of this," Alexander told the Senate panel.


Most of the seven enlisted soldiers charged in the Abu Ghraib abuses say they were encouraged to "soften up" prisoners for interrogators through humiliation and beatings. Several witnesses also report seeing military intelligence operatives hit Abu Ghraib prisoners, strip them naked and order them to be kept awake for long periods.


Other accusations against military intelligence troops include:


_Stuffing an Iraqi general into a sleeping bag, sitting on his chest and covering his mouth during an interrogation at a prison camp at Qaim, near the border with Syria. The general died during that interrogation, although he also had been questioned by CIA operatives in the days before his death.


_Choking, beating and pulling the hair of detainees at an Army prison camp near Samarra, north of Baghdad.

Â*


_Hitting prisoners and putting them in painful positions for hours at Camp Cropper, a prison at Baghdad International Airport for prominent former Iraqi officials.

Military officials say they're investigating all of those incidents.

One focus of the incident at Qaim is Chief Warrant Officer Lewis Welshover, an interrogator with the Army's 66th Military Intelligence Group. Welshover told The Associated Press on Friday: "I am not at liberty to discuss any of the details."

Welshover was part of a two-person interrogation team that questioned former Iraqi Air Force Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush, 57. Military autopsy records say Mowhoush was asphyxiated by chest compression and smothering.

Army officials say members of a California Army National Guard military intelligence unit are accused of abusing prisoners at a camp near Samarra, north of Baghdad. The New York Times has reported those accusations include pulling prisoners' hair, beating them and choking them to force them to give information.

The Red Cross complained to the military in July that Camp Cropper inmates had been kept in painful "stress positions" for up to four hours and had been struck by military intelligence soldiers.

One of the military intelligence soldiers interviewed in the Abu Ghraib probe claimed some prisoners were beaten before they arrived at Camp Cropper.

Cpl. Robert Bruttomesso of the 325th Military Intelligence Battalion told Army investigators he reported that abuse to his chain of command. The report of his interview, obtained by The Associated Press, does not include details on what action, if any, Bruttomesso's commanders took.

[mesobe]

The scandal is widening while the noose is tightening. An inverse relationship?

"the noose is tighetning"


that the fuck does that mean anyways? thats like saying "the ice is melting"


I cant believe that people who are in control of the whole world can say retarded shit like that.

[mburbank]

Two Marines Plead Guilty to Iraqi Abuse

By MARTHA RAFFAELE, Associated Press Writer

HARRISBURG, Pa. - Two 19-year-old Marines pleaded guilty to giving electric shocks to an Iraqi prisoner they were guarding in early April, months after the Abu Ghraib prison abuse, military officials said.


Pfc. Andrew J. Sting and Pfc. Jeremiah J. Trefney entered their pleas at a May 14 court-martial in Iraq , according to a statement by the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force in Iraq. Lt. Nathan Braden, a Marine spokesman at Camp Pendleton, Calif., released the statement Thursday.

Sting and Trefney were infantrymen with 2nd Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment, which is stationed at Camp Lejeune, N.C., and attached to the 1st Marine Division based at Pendleton.

According to the military statement, the pair and two other Marines wanted to discipline the detainee for throwing trash outside his cell and speaking loudly at the Al Mahmudiya prison, a temporary holding facility south of Baghdad.

The Marines attached wires to a power convertor, which delivered 110 volts of electricity to the detainee as he returned from the bathroom, the statement said.

[mburbank]

U.S. Soldiers to Be Charged in Iraqi General's Death


DENVER (Reuters) - The U.S. Army plans to file charges against two military intelligence officers in the suffocation death of an Iraqi general during questioning in Iraq in November, The Denver Post reported on Thursday.


The newspaper said negligent homicide and manslaughter charges were being brought against two warrant officers over the death of Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush, commander of Saddam Hussein's air forces.

Chief Warrant Officer Lewis Welshofer, based at Fort Carson, Colorado and a member of the 66th Military Intelligence Group, is accused of suffocating the general in a sleeping bag while sitting on his chest and covering his mouth, according to Pentagon documents obtained by the newspaper.

The other soldier, Chief Warrant Officer Jeff Williams, was involved in the interrogation at a U.S. military facility at Qaim, Iraq, the newspaper said.

The general's death was among more than 30 prisoner deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan that the Pentagon said last month it was investigating.

The treatment of prisoners came under scrutiny after photographs of physical and sexual abuse of Iraqi inmates at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad emerged earlier this year.

The general had undergone more than two weeks of daily interrogations while in U.S. custody, the newspaper said.

The U.S. military said at the time that he apparently died of natural causes after complaining that "he didn't feel well and subsequently lost consciousness." But an autopsy released by the Pentagon in May said Mowhoush died of asphyxia due to smothering and chest compression.

A spokesman at Fort Carson said he had no comment.

[Anonymous]

USA! USA! USA!

[Neurotic monkey]

It's a moot point. This shit happens all the time in american prisons.

[Anonymous]

Which makes it ok!