What the Hell is it With Us and Muslim Weddings?

[mburbank]

U.S. Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Party


By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party early Wednesday in western Iraq , killing more than 40 people, Iraqi officials said. The U.S. military said it could not confirm the report and was investigating.

Lt. Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of the city of Ramadi, said between 42 and 45 people died in the attack, which took place about 2:45 a.m. in a remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan. He said those killed included 15 children and 10 women.

Dr. Salah al-Ani, who works at a hospital in Ramadi, put the death toll at 45.

Associated Press Television News obtained videotape showing a truck containing bodies of those allegedly killed.

About a dozen bodies, one without a head, could be clearly seen. but it appeared that bodies were piled on top of each other and a clear count was not possible.

Iraqis interviewed on the videotape said partygoers had fired into the air in a traditional wedding celebration. American troops have sometimes mistaken celebratory gunfire for hostile fire.

"I cannot comment on this because we have not received any reports from our units that this has happened nor that any were involved in such a tragedy," Lt. Col. Dan Williams, a U.S. military spokesman, wrote in an e-mail in response to a question from The Associated Press.

"We take all these requests seriously and we have forwarded this inquiry to the Joint Operations Center for further review and any other information that may be available," Williams said.

The video footage showed mourners with shovels digging graves. A group of men crouched and wept around one coffin.

Al-Ani said people at the wedding fired weapons in the air, and that American troops came to investigate and left. However, al-Ani said, helicopters attacked the area at about 3 a.m. Two houses were destroyed, he said.

U.S. troops took the bodies and the wounded in a truck to Rutba hospital, he said.

"This was a wedding and the (U.S.) planes came and attacked the people at a house. Is this the democracy and freedom that (President) Bush has brought us?" said a man on the videotape, Dahham Harraj. "There was no reason."

Another man shown on the tape, who refused to give his name, said the victims were at a wedding party "and the U.S. military planes came... and started killing everyone in the house."

In July 2002, Afghan officials said 48 civilians at a wedding party were killed and 117 wounded by a U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan 's Uruzgan province. An investigative report released by the U.S. Central Command said the airstrike was justified because American planes had come under fire.

[Big Papa Goat]

Thats what you get for celebrating things with a round of machine gun fire into the air.

[davinxtk]

Yeah, whereas in America if you fired the same machinegun to celebrate your wedding they might
A) Notice you.
B) Confiscate the weapon.
C) Charge you with a misdemeanor offense.


MAYBE.

[Mockery]

Christ... we really need to pull out of Iraq. badly.

[sspadowsky]

Part of me wants to laugh. I can't help it. It's just so absurd.

[Cosmo Electrolux]

I did laugh...it's just so fucking typical of the mess that this entire "war on terror" has become. I really hope that our current administration is brought up before a war crimes tribunal...

[El Blanco]

dav, I can't think of a single American wedding I've been to or heard of that included the firing of automatic weapons. Occasional brandishing of a shotgun by the bride's father, yes. Just no assault weapons.

We really need to work on communication with the people out there.

[Buffalo Tom]

The title of the thread should be changed to 'How NOT to Win the Hearts and Minds of Ordinary Iraqis'. This is just awful.

[Ronnie Raygun]

Yeah....too bad it isn't true.

*********************

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120373,00.html

Wednesday, May 19, 2004

BAGHDAD, Iraq — U.S. military officials disputed suggestions that an American helicopter struck a wedding party in western Iraq on Wednesday and said coalition forces staged an attack against suspected foreign fighters.

Arab television and The Associated Press aired video showing the bodies of small children in a truck full of bodies and people digging graves as they quoted witnesses and Iraqi officials who discussed the attack.

But senior military officials in Washington said U.S. and coalition forces conducted a strike on "anti-coalition vehicles" along the Iraqi-Syrian border.

According to the military, at 3 a.m. local time Wednesday, coalition forces conducted an operation against a suspected foreign fighter safe house in the open desert. The house was 25 kilometers from the Syrian border, 85 kilometers southwest of Husaybah (search), military officials said.

Coalition forces came under hostile fire and called for support from the air. After the strike, coalition forces recovered numerous weapons, foreign passports, a SATCOM radio and two million Iraqi and Syrian dinars, military officials said.

The attack killed about 40 people, officials said.

A Coalition Press Information Center official said that since it was carried out during a raid on a suspected safe house, the air strike would therefore be "within the rules of engagement."

That official reiterated that the objective was a suspected hideout, and had no information about a wedding party.

Iraqi officials and others described a very different scenario.

Lt. Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of the city of Ramadi (search), said between 42 and 45 people died in the attack, which took place about 2:45 a.m. in a remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan. He said those killed included 15 children and 10 women.

Dr. Salah al-Ani, who works at a hospital in Ramadi, put the death toll at 45.

The Dubai-based Al-Arabiya television reported that more than 20 people were killed and 10 injured in the attack.

The videotape, obtained and aired by Associated Press Television News, showed about a dozen bodies, one without a head. But it appeared that bodies were piled on top of each other and a clear count was not possible.

Iraqis interviewed on the videotape said partygoers had fired into the air in a traditional wedding celebration. American troops have sometimes mistaken celebratory gunfire for hostile fire.

The video footage showed mourners with shovels digging graves. A group of men crouched and wept around one coffin.

Al-Ani said people at the wedding fired weapons in the air, and that American troops came to investigate and left. However, al-Ani said, helicopters attacked the area at about 3 a.m. Two houses were destroyed, he said.

"This was a wedding and the (U.S.) planes came and attacked the people at a house. Is this the democracy and freedom that (President) Bush has brought us?" said a man on the videotape, Dahham Harraj. "There was no reason."

Another man shown on the tape, who refused to give his name, said the victims were at a wedding party "and the U.S. military planes came... and started killing everyone in the house."

Lt. Col. Dan Williams, a U.S. military spokesman, said earlier that the military was investigating.

"I cannot comment on this because we have not received any reports from our units that this has happened nor that any were involved in such a tragedy," Williams wrote in an e-mail in response to a question from The Associated Press.

"We take all these requests seriously and we have forwarded this inquiry to the Joint Operations Center for further review and any other information that may be available," Williams said.

In July 2002, Afghan officials said 48 civilians at a wedding party were killed and 117 wounded by a U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan's Uruzgan province. An investigative report released by the U.S. Central Command said the airstrike was justified because American planes had come under fire.

Fox News' Bret Baier, Ian McCaleb and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

[Cosmo Electrolux]

The war is still a bad idea and we should get the fuck out.

[El Blanco]

a, just up and leaving can't possibly have any blowback. Its not like we did that to another Muslim back in the early 1980s. I can't imagine how that would come back to bite us.

[Ronnie Raygun]

It would bite Americans but help democratic politicians because it would give them political ammo.

[ArrowX]

I'm watching the video now. Looks like another one of your guy will lose another head :rolleyes

[mburbank]

Nadlo:

From the artcile you just posted:

"That official reiterated that the objective was a suspected hideout, and had no information about a wedding party."

Does that say to you that it wasn't a wedding party? You may we recall, the wedding party we blew up in Afghanistan turned out to be a wedding party. If you thought I was implying that we deliberately took out a wedding party in either Iraq or Afghanistan, that would be your problem. I don't think killing lots of people including children at a wedding party is part of our strategy. Who knows, maybe it will turn out all to be a big lie and really all we killed were terrorists, as opposed to that time in Afghanistan where we killed a lot of people at a wedding party. I'm just saying that if it turns out that we did accidentally kill a lot of epopel at a wedding party, that would turn out to be a bad thing for US PR, not to mention how diifcult it is for all the dead wedding guests. That's the thing about invading and occupying a country and then trying to put down an insurgency, it's puts you in this very, very difficult position where you start out trying to do your job and end up killing a lot of wedding guests. Surviving wedding party guests don't take "oops. Sorry." as being enough, and since we haven't said "Oops. Sorry." yet, like we did in Afghanistan, if it turns out this was a wedding party, I'll bet those folks are really upset.

"Blah, Blah, Blah, Max. They found weapins and money nd sattelite gear."

Everyone in Iraq has weapons. Everyone on the border with Syria has money in both currencys. Everyone in the middle east who lives away from population centers has sattelite gear.

"Uhmmm... Blah, blah, blah, Max."

[Cosmo Electrolux]

It would bite Americans but help democratic politicians because it would give them political ammo.

like saying that a wedding party was a safe house would give the gop political ammo?

[Ronnie Raygun]

The military ststed that it was a safe house. Are you saying that the military is anti democrat....and if they are, why do you think they are?

[sspadowsky]

The military ststed that it was a safe house. Are you saying that the military is anti democrat....and if they are, why do you think they are?

Well, by God, if the military says so, then it must be so! Them's our boys, and they'd never lie to us 'bout nothin'.

The military says a lot of shit, and it's surprising how often what they say is not true. Pull your head out, Raygun.

[Ronnie Raygun]

Ok then, where are the crediblity issues?

[sspadowsky]

Check inside your ass, right next to your head. Maybe some of them are in there.

[El Blanco]

Ya, but sspad, its not like Muslim leaders over there haven't been caught bullshitting either.

[Sethomas]

Finally, a decisive justification for EVERYTHING!

[sspadowsky]

I don't disagree with that at all, Blanco. Max said something recently that I think captures the single most important aspect of the occupation: We have to have the credibility, we have to truly rise above the abuse and torture, seperate ourselves from that behavior, if we want to 'win hearts and minds.'

If we are to convince these people that our way of doing things is best, then we have to lead by example, and not bullshit, cover up, abuse power, etc. We have to be the Boy Scouts.

[El Blanco]

I agree. It just is quite possible that it is a story made by opposition forces.

When you have the word of our military intel vs the word of local rabble rousers, its a tough call, but I'm going to give our guys the benefit of the doubt until proven wrong.

[Ronnie Raygun]

Blanco, you will because you're using common sense have don't have an agenda.

They won't because it hurts their cause if they don't exploit the words of our enemies.

[mesobe]

I don't disagree with that at all, Blanco. Max said something recently that I think captures the single most important aspect of the occupation: We have to have the credibility, we have to truly rise above the abuse and torture, seperate ourselves from that behavior, if we want to 'win hearts and minds.'

If we are to convince these people that our way of doing things is best, then we have to lead by example, and not bullshit, cover up, abuse power, etc. We have to be the Boy Scouts.

LOL... yes. and Atlantis sounds like a magical place to live

[Ronnie Raygun]

Why is that Mesobe?

Do you think we are worse than Al Queda or at least just as bad?

[mburbank]

I personally think we're way better than Al Quaeda. But Mike Tyson is way better than Al Quaeda, and he bit a guys ear off. What we're like compared to Al Quaeda isn't my concern. I'm a friggin' angel compared to Al Quaeda, but I'm not going to judge my worth on that curve, thanks.


'AMERICA! KILLING LESS INNOCENT PEOPLE, AND MOSTLY NOT ON PURPOSE!'

[sspadowsky]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5045772/

Videotape shows revelers at celebration
Survivors of May 19 airstrike cast doubt on U.S. account
Anja Niedringhaus / AP

The Associated Press
Updated: 9:49 p.m. ET May 23, 2004

RAMADI, Iraq - The bride arrives in a white pickup truck and is quickly ushered into a house by a group of women. Outside, men recline on brightly colored silk pillows, relaxing on the carpeted floor of a large goat-hair tent as boys dance to tribal songs.

The videotape obtained Sunday by Associated Press Television News captures a wedding party that survivors say was later attacked by U.S. planes early Wednesday, killing up to 45 people. The dead included the cameraman, Yasser Shawkat Abdullah, hired to record the festivities, which ended Tuesday night before the planes struck.

The U.S. military says it is investigating the attack, which took place in the village of Mogr el-Deeb about five miles from the Syrian border, but that all evidence so far indicates the target was a safehouse for foreign fighters.

“There was no evidence of a wedding: no decorations, no musical instruments found, no large quantities of food or leftover servings one would expect from a wedding celebration,” Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said Saturday. “There may have been some kind of celebration. Bad people have celebrations, too.”

The artifacts of celebration
But video that APTN shot a day after the attack shows fragments of musical instruments, pots and pans and brightly colored beddings used for celebrations, scattered around the bombed out tent.

The wedding videotape shows a dozen white pickup trucks speeding through the desert escorting the bridal car — decorated with colorful ribbons. The bride wears a Western-style white bridal dress and veil. The camera captures her stepping out of the car but does not show a close-up.

An AP reporter and photographer, who interviewed more than a dozen survivors a day after the bombing, were able to identify many of them on the wedding party video — which runs for several hours.

APTN also traveled to Mogr el-Deeb, 250 miles west of Ramadi, the day after the attack to film what the survivors said was the wedding site. A devastated building and remnants of the tent, pots and pans could be seen, along with bits of what appeared to be the remnants of ordnance, one of which bore the marking “ATU-35,” similar to those on U.S. bombs.

A water tanker truck can be seen in both the video shot by APTN and the wedding tape obtained from a cousin of the groom.

The endless party
The singing and dancing seems to go on forever at the all-male tent set up in the garden of the host, Rikad Nayef, for the wedding of his son, Azhad, and the bride Rutbah Sabah. The men later move to the porch when darkness falls, apparently taking advantage of the cool night weather.

Children, mainly boys, sit on their fathers’ laps; men smoke an Arab water pipe, finger worry beads and chat with one another. It looks like a typical, gender-segregated tribal desert wedding.

As expected, women are out of sight — but according to survivors, they danced to the music of Hussein al-Ali, a popular Baghdad wedding singer hired for the festivities. Al-Ali was buried in Baghdad on Thursday.

The organist, before and after
Prominently displayed on the videotape was a stocky man with close-cropped hair playing an electric organ. Another tape, filmed a day later in Ramadi and obtained by APTN, showed the musician lying dead in a burial shroud — his face clearly visible and wearing the same tan shirt as he wore when he performed.

As the musicians played, young men milled about, most dressed in traditional white robes. Young men swayed in tribal dances to the monotonous tones of traditional Arabic music. Two children — a boy and a girl — held hands, dancing and smiling. Women are rarely filmed at such occasions, and they appear only in distant glimpses.

Kimmitt said U.S. troops who swept through the area found rifles, machine guns, foreign passports, bedding, syringes and other items that suggested the site was used by foreigners infiltrating from Syria.

The videotape showed no weapons, although they are common among rural Iraqis.

U.S. denies finding children
Kimmitt has denied finding evidence that any children died in the raid although a “handful of women” — perhaps four to six — were “caught up in the engagement.”

“They may have died from some of the fire that came from the aircraft,” he told reporters Friday.

However, an AP reporter obtained names of at least 10 children who relatives said had died. Bodies of five of them were filmed by APTN when the survivors took them to Ramadi for burial Wednesday. Iraqi officials said at least 13 children were killed.

Four days after the attack, the memories of the survivors remain painful — as are their injuries.

Haleema Shihab, 32, one of the three wives of Rikad Nayef, said that as the first bombs fell, she grabbed her seven-month old son, Yousef, and clutching the hands of her 5-year-old son, Hamza, started running. Her 15-year-old son, Ali, sprinted alongside her. They managed to run for several yards when she fell, her leg fractured.

“Hamza was yelling, ‘mommy,”’ Shihab, recalled. “Ali said he was hurt and that he was bleeding. That’s the last time I heard him.” Then another shell fell and injured Shihab’s left arm.

Laughing soldiers?
“Hamza fell from my hand and was gone. Only Yousef stayed in my arms. Ali had been hit and was killed. I couldn’t go back,” she said from her hospital bed in Ramadi. Her arm was in a cast.

She and her stepdaughter, Iqbal — who had caught up with her — hid in a bomb crater. “We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise,” Shihab said.

Soon American soldiers came. One of them kicked her to see if she was alive, she said.

“I pretended I was dead so he wouldn’t kill me,” said Shihab. She said the soldier was laughing. When Yousef cried, the soldier said: “’No, stop,” said Shihab.

Fourteen-year-old Moza, Shihab’s stepdaughter, lies on another bed of the hospital room. She was hurt in the leg and cries. Her relatives haven’t told her yet that her mother, Sumaya, is dead. “I fear she’s dead,” Moza said of her mother. “I’m worried about her.”

Moza was sleeping on one side of the porch next to her sisters Siham, Subha and Zohra while her mother slept on the other end. There were many others on the porch, her cousins, stepmothers and other female relatives.

Four sisters
When the first shell fell, Moza and her sisters, Subha, Fatima and Siham ran off together. Moza was holding Subha’s hand.

“I don’t know where Fatima and my mom were. Siham got hit. She died. I saw Zohra’s head gone. I lost consciousness,” said Moza, covering her mouth with the end of her headscarf.

Her sister Iqbal, lay in pain on the bed next to her. Her other sister, Subha, was on the upper floor of the hospital, in the same room with 2-year-Khoolood. Her small body was bandaged and a tube inserted in her side drained her liver.

Her ankle was bandaged. A red ribbon was tied to her curly hair. Only she and her older brother, Faisal, survived from their immediate family. Her parents and four sisters and brothers were all killed.

In all, 27 members of Rikad Nayef’s extended family died — most of them children and women, the family said.
© 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[Ronnie Raygun]

....sounds like the tape might have been at least a few days old....

At least enough time for the wedding party to be replaced with terrorists...

[sspadowsky]

I dunno about that, but it's definitely enough time for you to place your intellect on the shelf and be a complete dumbass.

Face it, Ronnie. Sometimes, we are the bad guys.

[Ronnie Raygun]

In this case I'll believe our military before I'll believe Al Jizz.

[VinceZeb]

I dunno about that, but it's definitely enough time for you to place your intellect on the shelf and be a complete dumbass.

Face it, Ronnie. Sometimes, we are the bad guys.

Seems to me that you have thought we were the bad guys for the past 4 years.

Ass.

[sspadowsky]

Seems to me that you haven't been here for four years, so you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[mburbank]

WHAT?!?! Vinth making a statement he is in no position to back up?!? UNHEARD OF!!!

Why, it's as odd as...


3/26/04 9:29 AM CST

Those Wacky Japanese.....