Iraqis celebrate shuttle tragedy.

[Ronnie Raygun]

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=BJKKZDZVFUFBACRBAELCF EY?type=worldNews&storyID=2152926

Iraqis Call Shuttle Disaster God's Vengeance
Sat February 1, 2003 03:24 PM ET
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Immediate popular reaction in Baghdad on Saturday to the loss of the U.S. space shuttle Columbia and its seven-member crew -- including the first Israeli in space -- was that it was God's retribution.
"We are happy that it broke up," government employee Abdul Jabbar al-Quraishi said.

"God wants to show that his might is greater than the Americans. They have encroached on our country. God is avenging us," he said.

Iraqis are braced for a possible U.S.-led war to rid their country of any chemical, biological or nuclear weapons it may possess. Iraq denies it has such weapons.

Car mechanic Mohammed Jaber al-Tamini noted Israeli air force Colonel Ilan Ramon was among the dead when the shuttle broke up over the southwestern United States 16 minutes before its scheduled landing.

The 48-year-old Israeli astronaut was a fighter pilot in the Israeli air force. He was the youngest pilot in a team that bombed Iraq's nuclear reactor in 1981. Israel said the reactor was intended to develop nuclear weapons.

"Israel launched an aggression on us when it raided our nuclear reactor without any reason, now time has come and God has retaliated to their aggression," Tamini said.

There were no such signs of jubilation over the shuttle disaster in any of the Palestinian territories. The official response from the Palestinians was one of condolence.

"President (Yasser) Arafat and the Palestinian Authority offer their condolences to the six American families and the Israeli family who lost their loved ones in the catastrophe," Saeb Erekat, a senior Palestinian official and spokesman, told Reuters.

Erekat said Arafat had sent President Bush a message of condolences over the loss of the NASA space agency's shuttle. The United States, Israel's closest ally, is the chief Middle East peace broker.

[Protoclown]

My friend's brother made a really crass, tasteless joke about it. Maybe we can go to war with him too.

[Ronnie Raygun]

***Yes! Because war with Iraq wasn't even considered til' yesterday***

:)

[Miss Modular]

You know Ronnie, if vice versa happened, a select group of Americans would be doing the same thing. What makes you so sure they haven't been brainwashed? :confused

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I'm glad you chose to go back to the Raygun, Ronnie. :)

[Protoclown]

I still say we go to war with my brother's friend. Reston, Virginia. Bring the troops! Come on, imagine his surprise when a bunch of tanks roll over his house!

[FS]

The worst you could do is pay attention to a thing like this. It's pitiful, just like when people in the Middle East were cheering over the fall of the twin towers.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Jerry Falwell blamed 9/11 on the homosexuals, as well as our American "tolerance." Somehow I doubt that bothers Ronnie. :/

[GAsux]

Seems to me that citing the opinions of an Iraqi car mechanic would be not unlike quoting a crackhead in Detriot......

"Yea dawg, I was like, fuck them Iraqi's yo. We just tryin to get paid g."

I'm thinking also that gauging Iraqi public opinion is probably less than insightful considering they don't exactly have free press.

[george]

i celebrated too. get me a towel fella's, i am changing sides.

[Ronnie Raygun]

"Jerry Falwell blamed 9/11 on the homosexuals, as well as our American "tolerance." Somehow I doubt that bothers Ronnie." - Kevin

You could at least be honest about the context in which he spoke.

I understand exactly what he was talking about and agree with the premise of what he was saying.

[Abcdxxxx]

AHA! I knew they shoulda never let the homosexuals work at Nasa. They're too distracting. Ronnie, tell us how distracting the homosexuals are!! Bet you can't stop thinking about 'em. I hope you work those issues out before you try building space ships.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You could at least be honest about the context in which he spoke.

I understand exactly what he was talking about and agree with the premise of what he was saying.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/falwell-robertson-wtc.htm

Then Falwell said, "What we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact, God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve."
Robertson replied, "Well, Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror, we haven't begun to see what they can do to the major population."
Falwell said, "The ACLU has got to take a lot of blame for this. And I know I'll hear from them for this, but throwing God...successfully with the help of the federal court system...throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools, the abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked and when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad...I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who try to secularize America...I point the thing in their face and say you helped this happen."
Robertson said, "I totally concur, and the problem is we've adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government, and so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do, and the top people, of course, is the court system."
Falwell added, "Pat, did you notice yesterday that the ACLU and all the Christ-haters, the People for the American Way, NOW, etc., were totally disregarded by the Democrats and the Republicans in both houses of Congress, as they went out on the steps and and called out to God in prayer and sang 'God bless America' and said, let the ACLU be hanged. In other words, when the nation is on its knees, the only normal and natural and spiritual thing to do is what we ought to be doing all the time, calling on God."


So Ronnie, please, explain to us the "context" of these comments, would ya? Should the FBI be investigating the ACLU for the 9/11 attacks...?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

bump.

[Protoclown]

You may as well give it up, Kevin. Ronnie won't respond, when he knows he's beaten he just runs away and hides for a while.

[Ronnie Raygun]

Geeez. It's not that hard to comprehend.

SIN is what Falwell was talking about. When this nation embraces sin, we will no longer be under GOD's blanket of protection.

I think it totally makes sense from a Christian's point of view.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

SIN is what Falwell was talking about. When this nation embraces sin, we will no longer be under GOD's blanket of protection.

I think it totally makes sense from a Christian's point of view.

So you don't believe in freedom and the choices given to you by God, you instead support the idea of a theocratic regime, such as the Taliban, correct?

[Protoclown]

I think it totally makes sense from a Christian's point of view.

As a Christian, I do not even REMOTELY share that view.

[sadie]

falwell and robertson.. one day i hope to be sinless, so i can cast stones like that, too.

[AChimp]

As a Christian, I do not even REMOTELY share that view.

WHAT KIND OF CHRISTIAN ARE YOU?! >:

[sadie]

You silly Canadians and you're crazy ideas about religion and tolerance. Jeez.

[Ronnie Raygun]

First of all I have to say that I don't know and have never met Protoclown in person but from what I can tell from what he says here about Christ and his personal experiences with GOD, he is NOT a Christian.

"So you don't believe in freedom and the choices given to you by God, you instead support the idea of a theocratic regime, such as the Taliban, correct?" - Kevin

The taliban did not support the will of GOD.

...and Falwell never claimed to be sinless.

[Miss Modular]

The taliban did not support the will of GOD.


Does the Dalai Lama support the will of GOD?

I'm not defending the Taliban here, but aren't most Taliban Muslim? If that's the case, isn't the Christian God irrelevant to them?

[mburbank]

Naldo, why must I constantly point out to you your sin of pride. It's is not up to you in any way shape or form to interpret Proto's or anyone's Christianity. "Judgement is mine" sayeth the LORD. Not you, not ever and your opinion on matters like this is just as useless as anyone's except the LORD. When you say things like that, you sin, and you do it over and over, indicating you have no desire to change. See, I'm very happy judgeing you, because I am totally NOT a Christian. You, on the other hand, should lay off judging anyone becuase your belief system tells you NOT TO.

And, correct me if I'm wrong here, but based on your interpretation of the man who called People for the American Way and Now "Christ Haters", which is a HUGE leap of judgemennt even for a confirmed PRICK like Fallwell, can I assume that while the shuttle disaster was not God's Vengance, like the Twin Towers it was his failure to protect because we embrace sin?

And Mod, according to Naldo's brand of Christianity, unless the Dalai Lamma embraces Jesus s his personal Savior, he will, quiote literally, burn but not be consumed in a lake of fire for all eternity. Why? Becuase God is love, and if you don't buy that, then you should suffer for aall time.

[Protoclown]

First of all I have to say that I don't know and have never met Protoclown in person but from what I can tell from what he says here about Christ and his personal experiences with GOD, he is NOT a Christian.

Ronnie, I think that's about the BEST COMPLIMENT I could ever receive from you. Thanks!

[Ronnie Raygun]

"Naldo, why must I constantly point out to you your sin of pride."

I don't know. I never point out yours....

"It's is not up to you in any way shape or form to interpret Proto's or anyone's Christianity. "Judgement is mine" sayeth the LORD."


Good try, Max. I'm not judging Proto. I'm interpreting which is quite different. And I can only base that opinion off of the character he plays here at I-Mockery. For all I know he (who ever he is) could be the biggest Bible thumping Christian this side of Franklin Graham. I'm not damning him to hell.....just stating an opinion.


"Not you, not ever and your opinion on matters like this is just as useless as anyone's except the LORD."

Correct.

"When you say things like that, you sin, and you do it over and over, indicating you have no desire to change."

Prove it. I say it's not a sin. I'm not condemning anyone. I'm just simply stating that he's not a Christian. Just like I would say that you aren't....or Seinfeld.....or The Dali Lama......or..(not to put you in the same class)...Usama and Saddam. Is it wrong to state the obvious? There is no malice involved.

"See, I'm very happy judgeing you, because I am totally NOT a Christian."

See?

"You, on the other hand, should lay off judging anyone becuase your belief system tells you NOT TO."

I'm not. You are wrong.

"And, correct me if I'm wrong here, but based on your interpretation of the man who called People for the American Way and Now "Christ Haters", which is a HUGE leap of judgemennt even for a confirmed PRICK like Fallwell, can I assume that while the shuttle disaster was not God's Vengance, like the Twin Towers it was his failure to protect because we embrace sin?"

No you cannot assume. ....... Actually this is where you lose it because you simply cannot argue objectively. You just run around calling taking people out of context, calling them "priks"........actually, you can have it. Keep doing what you are doing.

"And Mod, according to Naldo's brand of Christianity, unless the Dalai Lamma embraces Jesus s his personal Savior, he will, quiote literally, burn but not be consumed in a lake of fire for all eternity. Why? Becuase God is love, and if you don't buy that, then you should suffer for aall time."

Exactly. Accept Christ or accept eternal solitude......Look, he even made it an easy choice.

It's not like GOD is making choose between a red and blue pill. The choice is clear.

You calling me prideful is a laugh Burbank. Probably one of the funniest things you've ever said. You are way more prideful than I am.....your attitude towards Christ tells all.

Face your convictions and accept Christ.

[mburbank]

Naldo; It's one thing to tell people who don't think of themselves as Christian they aren't and something totally other to call Proto, who conciders hiomself to be one not. You know that. To lump him in with Jews, Hindus, Moslems and Agnostics is insulting, arrogant and prideful. But since you admitted your opinion on this is useless, why state it, other than to elevate yourself.

Eternal solitude. Gol' that sounds way better than a lake of fire. Which is it exactly? Cause a God that just gives you eternal solitude, that doesn't sound quite so awful as literal burning without consumption. But maybe that whole lake of fire thing is just a metaphor. Hmmmm.

as to my level of pride, you wouldn't know it if it bled to deatth for you on a cross. A simple test. The Almighty, by it's very nature cannot be understood by the mortal mind. Therefore, it's possible I could be totally wrong about jesus and you totally right. I sincerely hope not, but I admit I cannot comprehend Gods mind. Now make the same statement, in reverse. Maybe Jesus wasn't Christ.

Can't do it? Here's an easier one. Try saying (truthfully) maybe that George Bush is totally pulling the wool over my eyes. Maybe I'm dead wrong and this war against Iraq is based solely on lies and a lot of innocent suffering people will die awful deaths paid for in part by my tax dollars while I stood on the sidelines cheering like a Laker Girl and slept easily.

I'm perfectly willing to say that maybe Bush et al have all the evidence they say they have, that my lack of trust is just the product of paranoia, that war is the only way to go. I mean it, too. The possability I'm wrong plays a very large factor in my reasoning, and I don't sleep so easily. I never come to any conclusion without spending a lot of time thinking about what the other side thinks and what it means if they're right. Doubt is good. That's why Jesus let thomas stick his fingers in His wounds isnead of saying "Gol, if you don't accept me, I guess you go to hell" That's why it took something that viceral and nasty to constitute proof. It might be a metaphor, but it's a good one. Oh, and it can be 'interpreted' more ways than one, if you don't agree with my 'judegment' of the story.

[Protoclown]

You calling me prideful is a laugh Burbank. Probably one of the funniest things you've ever said. You are way more prideful than I am.....your attitude towards Christ tells all.

Ronnie, this is just observation on the boards, as I've not met you, but I HAVE met Max Burbank...and he displays on these boards FAR more reverence and respect for the TEACHINGS of Christ than the lip service that you have paid him on these boards.

Maybe he doesn't believe Jesus was the son of God, and that's his prerogative (and I respect that and do not believe that condemns him to "everlasting hell")...BUT he certainly displays a better appreciation for and understanding of his teachings around here than you have, in my estimation.

[mburbank]

Jesus was a rockin' rabbi. though something of an extremist. I would hang with him any day. He wouldn't hang with 'Naldo though, on account of him not liking the overly pious. Tax Collectors, Fishermen and whores, baby.

[glowbelly]

even heaven needs whores

[sspadowsky]

"Eternal solitude" :lol

Wow, man. The political correctness movement has gone too far. Even the fundamentalists are coming up with euphemisms for their own Hell.

Gddamn, that's hilarious.

:lol
________
VAPORIZER AFFILIATE PROGRAMS (http://vaporizeraffiliateprogram.com)

[mburbank]

Yeah, solitude=Damnation strikes me as more Orwellian than Biblical, but that's just me.

I know, I know, 'Naldo means that being permanently cut off from God's Grace is as bad as prepetual burning, but please recall he is a biblical literalist.

Tell you what. Though I'd hate the idea of being completely cut off from God, think I'd prefer it to roasting for all time.

I bet he thinks that fire thing is a metaphor, though. Even though that would be inconsistent.

[Ronnie Raygun]

I'm shocked at even your ignorance Burbank. Do you not know that the Bible states that hell is eternal and the you, in fact, are in solitude? Me not mentioning the fire doesn't mean anything...so what? Being separate from GOD is much worse than fire. That's the main part of what hell is all about......pity you don't understand....seriously.

"as to my level of pride, you wouldn't know it if it bled to deatth for you on a cross."

Are you implying that Jesus bled to death? If so that's just another ignorant statement since everyone pretty much accepts as common knowledge that being hung on a cross causes you to suffocate.....and the spear in the side only weakened his body and ability to push himself up and sped up the process.

"A simple test. The Almighty, by it's very nature cannot be understood by the mortal mind. Therefore, it's possible I could be totally wrong about jesus and you totally right. I sincerely hope not, but I admit I cannot comprehend Gods mind. Now make the same statement, in reverse. Maybe Jesus wasn't Christ."

You can say "maybe" about anything and everything.

Is this all you have?

[mburbank]

Are you shocked? Seriously? 'Cause I'm more of the impression you're being fatous as a rfesult of your pride.

I imply nothing. You infer all. I didn't say anything about christ, I mixed a metaphor. The expression is "You wouldn't know ----- if it bled to death on your front lawn". The historical cause during crucifiction would depend on the method. A whole lot of people got crucified. Jesus, who you mention and I certainly did not, in all probability died of suffacation because his legs were broken to speed the process. Victims tied to a cross and not nailed, are as likely to die from exposure as from suffacation. Those nailed through the wrist (the commonly depicted hand nails will not hold a man's weight) were likely to bleed to death before suffacation. If it makes you happy, I'll concede that if the biblical depiction of the execution of Jesus is historical and his legs were indeed broken, he almost certainly suffacated. I hope this lengthy discourse on death by crucifiction in some way satisfies whatever part of you it was that thought there was some problem with my statement.


As to your comparison between separation from the divine and the endless experience of third degree burns, perhaps the one will distract you from the other. I hope for your sake God is not petty and human enough to enforce such a penalty.

If you mean, do I have absolute and unshakable faith in anything, than no, I do not. Only a fool defines faith as the lack of doubt. Let me reverse the charge and see if you'll respond, as I just did.

Do you, Naldo, hold any convictions whioch you doubt at all?

[Ronnie Raygun]

Not concerning Christ.

Death penalty? Yes.

"As to your comparison between separation from the divine and the endless experience of third degree burns, perhaps the one will distract you from the other. I hope for your sake God is not petty and human enough to enforce such a penalty."

There are no distractions in hell. Complete hopeless, miserable solitude.

GOD has to enforce his word, silly. GOD is perfect and cannot tell a lie and that's exactly why I don't have to worry about my spiritual life after I'm through with this one.

You probably think that I'm thinking ......"One day Max you're going face Christ in person and you're going to be sorry and remember what I said".......Not at all. You will only be thinking of all the lost opprotunities that you had to accept Christ. I hop you have a change of heart Max.

Forget everything else I've ever said....this is different.

Serious.

[mburbank]

Thanks, Jack Chick.

You have doubts about the death penalty? Seriously? Lay them out. I qwent to seewhat you going through the process of evaluating something might look like.

On the subject of God enforcing his will... Say, 100 years of damnation, or maybe 1000, oh, heck, 10,000,000 years. What's this eternity business, isn't that a little over the top in the cruelty department, you know, just a little petty and vendictaive and human?

[Ronnie Raygun]

Hell is a choice, Max.

GOD's reasons are not for me to understand sometimes. I just try to follow GOD's will.

It's hard to give up pride and give in to the will of GOD, as you've demonstrated.

[mburbank]

"It's hard to give up pride and give in to the will of GOD, as you've demonstrated."

A statement utterly without merit and complete projection. I make no claims whatever of even attempting to give into God's Will, something I claim no understanding of and am not at all certain exists in any way the human mind could ever grasp. So, my actions demonstrate nothing whatever in regard to the difficulty of such an attempt.

You, however, claim that while God's Reason is a mystery, his Will is crystal clear and the interpretation of it outside the realm of debate. Since you who are engaged in this effort, it's you who with every failure of pride, mean spiritedness, myopia and attibrution to God your own pinched vengeful views just how difficult the excercise is.

[Ronnie Raygun]

It's good that you have an opinion.

...and my opinion is that your hatred towards real Christians and the political right has caused you to be bitter and mean spirited.

What else is there to say?

"Get well soon"?

[mburbank]

Real Christians. That says it all, right there. You can't let God separate the Goats and the Sheep, can you? You just need to jump in and do it for Him.

If 'real' Christians are those who think God would create the myrical of life simply to test obediance and punish those who fail for eternity and find this God worthy of worship, then absolutely, I hate them. If 'real' Christians think all God demands is allegiance and beyond that tolerates cruelty and meaness and war as a team sport, then yes, I hate them. I hate Him too, but I'm fairly certain he doesn't exist in that form and if he does I want nothing to do with Him and Hell is where I belong. The comapny will be better there.

As far as the Conservative Right goes, I hope they bring butter and plungers to the pearly gates, because there's a needle right in front of it.

Bitter? About some things. Mean spirited? Hardly ever. What can I say, It's a quality you personally bring out in me, Nalds. You'd like to think I share it around with your fellow conservatives, but it's pretty much just for you.

[Anonymous]

Entry: analyze
Function: verb
Definition: examine
Synonyms: assay, chew over, confab, consider, estimate, evaluate, figure, figure out, hash, inspect, interpret, investigate, judge, kick around, rehash, resolve, scrutinize, sort out, spell out, study, talk game, test, think through
Antonyms: ignore, neglect, overlook, pass over, pay no heed to
Concept: examination
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright © 2003 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

[mburbank]

Thanks.

[Skulhedface]

My take on the whole thing is that Falwell and Robertson don't care what you believe, they are trying to tell us, Americans as a whole, that we are sinners, and I agree. No one's perfect. However, my problem with it is that at a time when the world should've (rightly so) been in mourning, we have oppotunistic weasels advancing their own agendas. Let the homosexuals and secular people of the world live with it, and if they do die and end up getting on The Big Guy's bad side, that's THEIR problem.

Being atheist myself, it's hard to NOT put this in a way that's not touchy, but here goes anyway:

I believe that everyone should be able to live how they want (WITHIN REASON, I DO NOT ADVOCATE MURDER, PEDOPHILIA OR THE LIKE) and LET LIVE. My beef with the religious right has been their nagging fixation on living people's lives for them. Jesus Saves. Well, what if we CHOOSE not to be saved? God did give us FREE WILL, after all. I respect people that are religious, if you believe in God, well good! I'm not being sarcastic, some people choose to have religion in their lives, I'm not God, I won't take that from you. But the fanatics like Falwell and Robertson bother me. People who call me a baby killer because I'm pro-choice. Well, I'm not the one pulling an unborn baby out of the womb. I'm not the teenage mother who's getting her unborn baby "removed at convenience" because "Daddy will get mad". I believe that ultimately, whether I agree with it or not, IT'S NOT MY CHOICE TO MAKE, THEREFORE IT'S NOT MY RIGHT TO CONDEMN SUCH A PERSON FROM MAKING THAT CHOICE.

Falwell and Robertson are doing NOTHING more than advancing their own agenda. THEY hate homosexuals, THEY hate the secular.. if this was GOD'S beef, wouldn't Afghanistan be suffering 10 okagues by now? (Because the first commandment basically says that God hates competition). I know this isn't true but let me use the stereotype anyway.. If God had that big a beef (before they die) with homosexuals, wouldn't Greece be wiped off the map Noah's Ark style, or at least like he took out Sodom? (and again, I'm just using an example, I am smart enough to know that Greece is not filled to the borders with homosexuals). Falwell and Robertson have a problem with these people, being bigoted as they are, and they are trying to use God as a tool to scare the deviants.

People need to stop taking their religion into battle. Good God.

[ItalianStereotype]

im sorry, i was under the impression that nobody gives a fuck what your take on ANY situation is.

did anybody see al sharpton addressing the democratic national convention? aside from blaming republicans for everything from 9/11 to AIDS, he accused bush of trying to merge church and state....the irony....the hypocrisy....

[mburbank]

Eye tie, your point being?

Both parties are rife with the sort of opportunistic crapola Sharpton is famous for, although admittedly he represents the edge of the envelope. He has fine company in Trent Lott and Coble (or however one spells his name) the representatibve heading the Judiciary commitee for homeland security who thinks internment camps are a good idea.

[ItalianStereotype]

no point, i just hate the guy...

[mburbank]

I don't care much for him either.

[Skulhedface]

::gives you your two cents back:: You can keep it. It wasn't worth it. Thanks for playing!

[ItalianStereotype]

::tries to put actions into words and only comes off sounding really gay::

i dont recall giving you my two cents, i believe i was telling you how it is.

[Skulhedface]

And I believe if I had asked, I would've asked someone that could handle even a rudimentary grasp on reality.

Anything else? You bore me.

[ItalianStereotype]

ok, apparently you dont even need ::these:: to come off as completely gay.

if you think that you are all cool and funny with your picture of beavis and what not, you shouldnt be saying shit about MY grasp on reality.

[AChimp]

:lol

Ronnie almost made my signature with that eternal solitude line. Almost. :lol

[Ronnie Raygun]

"Real Christians. That says it all, right there. You can't let God separate the Goats and the Sheep, can you? You just need to jump in and do it for Him."

That's silly. I'm obviously not capable. I'm only a man. GOD is GOD. It's a fact that their are fake Christians. Just look at all the child molesting preists and the church leadership that defends them. Doesn't that make sense, Maxi?

[mburbank]

It does. But that isn't what you're talking about at all, unless you're lumping Proto together with Child Molesters in your deffinition of "Fake Christians" or unless when you say someone isn't a 'real Christian' you don't neccesarily mean they are 'fake christians.' In which case your use of language borders on Clintonesque. I'll leave aside the fact that you just ruled out a prominent feature of Christianity, the possibility of contrition.

You don't like the taste of it, but it's clear when you use phrases like 'real american' and 'real christian', you're a zealot. And zealotry? A pretty tiny box. But it's always good to know you are sure enough you are without sin to be comfortable casting stones.

[Anonymous]

i think your god sucks

he doesnt give me free crap

what is up with that

[The_Rorschach]

Well, as far as I can tell, Ronnie has been farely fundamental for the most part. I'm only going to respond to Burbie's last comment

Burbank: It does. But that isn't what you're talking about at all, unless you're lumping Proto together with Child Molesters in your deffinition of "Fake Christians" or unless when you say someone isn't a 'real Christian' you don't neccesarily mean they are 'fake christians.'

Well, Paul encouraged the Church not to judge one another, but be aware of whem they stray away from the scriptures and into heresy (my word, one never once used in the Bible). If a person did such a thing, they were considered 'false witnesses' i.e. fake christians. The first step in dealing with them is to talk it out, if no accord can be reached, the second is to stop holding fellowship with the individual, but never to judge and never to hold past transgressions against them in case they return to the doctrines. As near as I can tell, that whats Ronnie has been insinuating, but not in so many words.

Burbank: You don't like the taste of it, but it's clear when you use phrases like 'real american' and 'real christian', you're a zealot. And zealotry? A pretty tiny box. But it's always good to know you are sure enough you are without sin to be comfortable casting stones.

Well, I prefer real California cheese to imitation Craft singles on my subs, and I enjoy conversating on politics with those who actually follow the news as opposed to those just have knee-jerk reaction to headlines, so I think there is room enough for middle ground somewhere before reaching the zealotry stage.

Furthermore, I think you're purposely trying to bait Ronnie into saying something that would suggest all he knows of Christianity he learned from commentaries and O'Reilly. I know you're educated on the subject, so I can't help but think its slightly malicious of you to torture the kid like this. I'm sure even he must admit to himself that he has many hypocritical traits (politically and religiously speaking), what purpose does it serve to rub his nose in them?

---One more thing

Sspad: "Eternal solitude"

Wow, man. The political correctness movement has gone too far. Even the fundamentalists are coming up with euphemisms for their own Hell.


Ronnie fucked this one up. The Book of Hebrews refers to 'Outer Darkness' and I was almost sure this was what he meant at the time. Once a person accepts Christ he is saved from eternal damnation. God keeps His word even if His followers don't. If they recant, and sin without repentance and turn their eyes from Him, they won't go to hell. Instead they will be banished from the Kingdom of God, to the surrounding 'Outer Darkness.'

It's actually pretty interesting, and I wish the Bible alluded to it more than just a few times in the New Testament because its certainly insightful.

[Anonymous]

no one liked my haiku :(

[mburbank]

Oh, I'm totally baiting him. Absolutely. Absolutely 'Naldo. AND it's a little cruel, AND I take some measure of pleasure in it.

A few things.

A.) I make no pretense I'm not. Ronnie, in case you may have missed it, I am tweaking your nose on purpose.

B.) While a little adolescent, (this is affter ll a site for mockery) my aim is to to hold a mirror up to Ronnies Hypocrisy. I make no major moral claims for myself. Ronnie claims to be a 'real Christian', 'real American', going to heaven while pretty much everyone else here is currently damned, and yet his behavior is pretty much the same as mine. Except I'm funnier. And more lucid. And know more about religion.

C.) Ronnie begs for it. He's here as a negative atttention seeker, I'm just he'pin. I once spent a series of posts trying to get him to say why he was here, and got nowhere realistic. He claimed he was here to educate, which stretches credulity. I think he's here to Mock, but can't admit it even to himself, becuase Mocking and Gloating are unChristian passtimes.

D.) Ronnie holds the one and only belief I find most unsettling, appauling, bizarre, barbaric and dangerous. That a Supreme being responsible for all creation would feature Eternal Damnation as part of his plan. Like most moderns who believe in Hell, he's fairly certain it's just for other folks. That makes me literally ill, and I can't see that opinion expressed without attacking it. Nalds will tell you that means I hate Christians. Which is of course, whooey. In my view, any Christian who does not struggle daily with the concept of damnation and what it might mean about God is lacking in most Christian virtues.

E.) He needs it. He wouldn't be here if he didn't.

F.) It probably makes him pray for me. It nver hurts to hedge your bets.

G.) It's irresistably fun.

[Ronnie Raygun]

"It does."

I'm glad you agree.

"But that isn't what you're talking about at all, unless you're lumping Proto together with Child Molesters in your deffinition of "Fake Christians""

In my opinion he has something in common with them in that he is not really a Christian....He's not, in my opinion, like them in any other way and my words are in no meant to be an insult. I'm not saying he's the same as a child molester except in that one sense.

"I'll leave aside the fact that you just ruled out a prominent feature of Christianity, the possibility of contrition."

No I haven't.

"You don't like the taste of it, but it's clear when you use phrases like 'real american' and 'real christian', you're a zealot. And zealotry? A pretty tiny box. But it's always good to know you are sure enough you are without sin to be comfortable casting stones."

I'm not uncomfortable with that term. The term "zealot" does not have a negative connotation. To be zealous can be a good thing just as much as a bad thing. And it's not a tiny box, you should know since you spend most of your time in one. Also, I sin plenty. Just as much as any other man. Being sinless is impossible and wouldn't get to any closer to GOD anyway. Sin itself really doesn't even factor in. I give it all to GOD and am forgiven. This can happen when you have a real relationship with Christ.

And believe me, you aren't the first person to refer to a Christian as a zealot. It's actually a compliment.

"A.) I make no pretense I'm not. Ronnie, in case you may have missed it, I am tweaking your nose on purpose."

You're not "tweaking" anything. Just rambling. It's fun to watch spin around in your little box.

"B.) While a little adolescent, (this is affter ll a site for mockery) my aim is to to hold a mirror up to Ronnies Hypocrisy."

You haven't. I've never claimed to be anything I'm not. I don't hold people to higher standards than I do myself. Just because you insist on repeating something over and over again, doesn't mean that they magically turn into facts.

"I make no major moral claims for myself."

Yes, which gives you free reign to say and do anything. That makes you a weaker man, not stronger.

"Ronnie claims to be a 'real Christian', 'real American', going to heaven while pretty much everyone else here is currently damned, and yet his behavior is pretty much the same as mine."

Real Christian...yes. Real American....yes. "going to heaven while pretty much everyone else here is currently damned"..... Not at all, and you know it. This is where your little self proclaimed moral depravity kicks in. It's O.K. for you to lie because you don't make "major moral claims". I've NEVER said nor insinuated anything like that.

"Except I'm funnier. And more lucid. And know more about religion."

You very well might know more about "religion". Religion is just man made and flawed. That's you problem, you don't have a relationship with GOD. I don't know much about Islam or hinduism and don't really care to.

"C.) Ronnie begs for it. He's here as a negative atttention seeker, I'm just he'pin. I once spent a series of posts trying to get him to say why he was here, and got nowhere realistic. He claimed he was here to educate, which stretches credulity. I think he's here to Mock, but can't admit it even to himself, becuase Mocking and Gloating are unChristian passtimes."

I'm not a mocker. I'm here for a different point of view and because there are many intelligent people here like Kevin, Ror, and yourself that are my stongest sources of info. coming from the left....though Ror's not really from the left.

"D.) Ronnie holds the one and only belief I find most unsettling, appauling, bizarre, barbaric and dangerous. That a Supreme being responsible for all creation would feature Eternal Damnation as part of his plan. Like most moderns who believe in Hell, he's fairly certain it's just for other folks. That makes me literally ill, and I can't see that opinion expressed without attacking it."

The fact that it makes you ill might mean something....you are be convicted by GOD. Don't let pride be the death of you. I AM NOT TALKING DOWN TO YOU!! I mean these words with utter sincerity. Get it?!

"Nalds will tell you that means I hate Christians."

No, I don't. You don't speak for me.

"E.) He needs it. He wouldn't be here if he didn't."

I like it here, just like you do.

"F.) It probably makes him pray for me. It nver hurts to hedge your bets."

I'm sorry you see it that way.

"G.) It's irresistably fun."

It is for me to. You guys are the best.

[mburbank]

1.) Okay, what about Proto makes him less a 'Real" Christian than you? And does his fake Christianty mean that should he suddenly die of a massive stroke, or being struck by a falling anvil, anything that took him by surprise, that he would go to hell? Forever. 'Cause I think that's on the childish side. You know. For God. What with Proto being a basically nice guy and just having a little in common with a child molester.

"Just as much as any other man."
You've made that statement often, but what do you MEAN by it. I have never heard you admit to a mistake, and error in judgemnt , a doubt in any speciffic way. Likewise, you attribute to your icons (Bush, Rush, et al) a similar virtual infallability.

"I make no major moral claims for myself."
-me

Yes, which gives you free reign to say and do anything. That makes you a weaker man, not stronger.
-you

See, here you make a seriously blind mistake. It isn't the claims that make a person moral. I can't think of the exact passage at the moment but I believe Jesus had something to say about judging by a man's actions.

"Real Christian...yes. Real American....yes. "going to heaven while pretty much everyone else here is currently damned"..... Not at all, and you know it. This is where your little self proclaimed moral depravity kicks in. It's O.K. for you to lie because you don't make "major moral claims". I've NEVER said nor insinuated anything like that. "
-You

Never in a single sentence, I suppose. But there's logic. Here's what you have said. You are a real american and Christian. Speciffic other people here are not. Real Christians go to heaven. Those who do not accept Jesus go to hell. You? God's Grace. Other's here? Hellbound unless they 'have a change of heart'. I accept that you see these as conditions of fact beyond your influence. It doesn't chnage where you stand in relation to us. I have stated on more than one occasion that it's not yours to judge and that you sjhouldn't be inlcined to. You feel that God has laid out a set of rules that allows you to determine a persons destintion in the afterlife. You arfe also very eager to call people 'liar's' when their interpretation of events isn't the same as yours, which is less than charitable, an ugly accusation, and reveals a highly simplistic vision of different viewpoints.

[Vibecrewangel]

Ronnie - "Religion is just man made and flawed. "

How then can you say without any doubt that the one you follow is the correct one?

[Ronnie Raygun]

I don't follow a religion, Vibe.

Maxi,

"1.) Okay, what about Proto makes him less a 'Real" Christian than you?"

You can't be "less". You either are, or you're not. Proto, has said in the past that you don't have to accept Christ to go to heaven. It's very, very simple. In order to be a CHRISTian you have to truly accept CHRIST as your savior. And the acceptance of CHRIST is the only way to the Father.

"And does his fake Christianty mean that should he suddenly die of a massive stroke, or being struck by a falling anvil, anything that took him by surprise, that he would go to hell? Forever."

Yes.

"'Cause I think that's on the childish side. You know. For God. What with Proto being a basically nice guy and just having a little in common with a child molester."

If you think GOD is childish that's your problem. I truly feel bad for you. Being a "nice guy" is not the standard in which GOD will judge us. I think you know that.

"You've made that statement often, but what do you MEAN by it. I have never heard you admit to a mistake, and error in judgemnt , a doubt in any speciffic way. Likewise, you attribute to your icons (Bush, Rush, et al) a similar virtual infallability."

You have seen me admit to a mistake you just don't want to remember because it would detract from your argument. I know for a fact that I told you I had issues with the death penalty and that was only a few weeks ago. Doesn't that qualify as a "doubt". See Maxi, no matter what I say you will disagree.

"See, here you make a seriously blind mistake. It isn't the claims that make a person moral. I can't think of the exact passage at the moment but I believe Jesus had something to say about judging by a man's actions."

Well, then....I'm talking about your actions here on I-Mockery. You can make any claim you wish because you are not bound by morality.....the passage you were refering to was the one about the "fruits"......probably Matthew 7:20. As far as judging goes, I'm not ruling over anyone, I'm not damning anyone to hell, I don't and will never have that power......and don't want it. Many of Christ's disciples spoke against those who were of what they viewed as a false religion or who had views that did not agree with words of Christ. Were they wrong?

"Never in a single sentence, I suppose."

This is where you go wrong. I am an honest person. Do you disagree with that? .....Now, if you want to know what my views are just ask me. Don't take a bunch of sentences from a bunch of different conversations and use them out of context. You know what you WANT to believe, so you look for statements, by me, that you can compile to form a belief about me that's simply not accurate. Really Max...it's not.

"But there's logic. Here's what you have said. You are a real american and Christian. Speciffic other people here are not. Real Christians go to heaven. Those who do not accept Jesus go to hell. You? God's Grace. Other's here? Hellbound unless they 'have a change of heart'. I accept that you see these as conditions of fact beyond your influence. It doesn't chnage where you stand in relation to us."

Where I stand in relation to you is irrelevant. Where I stand in realtion to GOD is.

"I have stated on more than one occasion that it's not yours to judge and that you sjhouldn't be inlcined to. You feel that God has laid out a set of rules that allows you to determine a persons destintion in the afterlife."

I don't know how many different ways I can put this. I am not condemning anyone. I don't have that power. I will state the obvious and continue to express my views.

"You arfe also very eager to call people 'liar's' when their interpretation of events isn't the same as yours, which is less than charitable, an ugly accusation, and reveals a highly simplistic vision of different viewpoints."

You have been known to lie. Here earlier when you said that I never had any doubt concerning anything I stand for......Just a couple of weeks ago we were talking about the death penalty.....and you conveniently failed to mention that.

[mburbank]

Naldo does not see his relationship with God as a religion. All that other funky shuck and Jive is religion. Golden calfs are religion. What he does is embrace the Truth.

Okay. Lets say for the sake of argument you don't judge. You make a judgement. You know the TRUTH, proto is WRONG and if he dies he'll go to hell. Just the facts maam. You better hope you are absolutely right because fi you aren't, then you are INCREDABLY judgmental. And just for the record? I never thought you had the actual power to send someone to hell. I think you look at someones belief s and actions and think you know wether they're going to Hell olr not. I think only God knows that, and our understanding of his will is imperfect.

"Being a "nice guy" is not the standard in which GOD will judge us. I think you know that. "

I have no idea of what the afterlife has in it if anything, but if there is one I think being a nice guy should be just about the main requirement. Being nice is HARD! I'm completely serious here, Nalds, if niceness ie. compassion and caring aren't the main things God is looking for that his priorities are way to human for my taste. Obediance as the principal virtue sounds kind of nasty to me.

Nald. If saying you have 'issues' with the death penalty constitutes doubt for you then you haven't experienced a whole lot of doubt. What ARE these issues? How do you FEEL when a man is put to death by the state? What are you motivated to DO when someone who's spent years on death row is proven innocent? When W. mocked the Cristianity of thhe Texas woman on death row did you hear about it? Did it cause you to think about his clarity on the issue? What have the 'issues' meant to you?

I have concidered the idea that Jesus might actully be the messiah. So what? If that's all I can say about it, it doesn't amount to much.

And if I say I don't see you as a person who experiences doubt, Naldo, that's becuase based on what I read that you write, that's WHAT I THINK. Now possibly I'm off base. But I'm certainly mot lieing. Only a child thinks lieing, disagreeing and being wrong are just three ways of saying the same thing. Lieing is about intent.

I think YOU know that. Know what that means? Every time you call me a liar, it's a LIE. Because you know I'm expressing an opinion, not deliberatley stating something I don't believe, and yet you actively CHOSE to use the word liar. You have the INTENT.

"Many of Christ's disciples spoke against those who were of what they viewed as a false religion or who had views that did not agree with words of Christ. Were they wrong? "

In my reading of the Gospels, the apostles spend their entire time with Jesus getting his teachings wrong over and over. It's one of the primary ways he taught, and the fact he surrounded himself with hugely fallible people was a choice and a statement about the nature of Man, something He himself had chosen to take part in. If you believe he was divine, anyway. I mean, not much point in taking on flesh if you don't take on it's weakness. So unless I missed the prt where after Jesus died a wand was waved and the apostles became perfect, yeah, I think they were wrong. That's what I think. Not a lie.

I have asked you VERY direct questions and you dodge them. You've already wayed in on where Proto is going if he dies without a change of heart. Me too, right? And everybody on earth who doesn't accept Christ. You see that as a fact the same way I see gravity. Am I right? So here's my direct questions.

1.)Do you ever in the least little corner of your heart doubt that?

2.) Do you ever wonder WHY God wants it that way?

3.) Do you ever wonder about what this says about God's nature?

And don't just say yes or no, that's begging for people to missinterpret you. Explicate.

Ponder this. Maybe the reason you are so 'missunderstood' on this board has less to do with our knee jerk reactions than you think. Maybe it's because you relish your outsider role, and you don't try very hard to be understood.

[ItalianStereotype]

well, ronnie is correct in part here. you do have to accept christ to be a christian. you can say that you are a christian, but the only way to make it complete is to at least be baptised. if you dont do this you arent a christian, but i am sure there are other ways to heaven. i really doubt god is going to let the jews burn in hell since they still worship him.

[The_Rorschach]

I'm going to declare Burbank the winner here.

For one thing Ronnie, lets assume Christ was the son of God (not a hard assumption, I do so daily), he didn't lord his power over anyone or force them to believe. Nor did he prioritize his followers into sects. He said "My sheep know my voice" and I think that is Burb's main point.

Standing in condemnation or judgement of others is the antithesis of being a good Chrisitan. Point of fact, it's actually usurption of your Saviours role, and I can only think of one Biblical personality that sought that sort of thing. Needless to say, he isn't doing well.

Out of curiousity. If there was a religious Mock war, would it be called a Jihad?

[Protoclown]

I don't know how I managed to not notice the updates to this thread for so long...

Actually Ronnie, I HAVE personally accepted Christ. I just don't think that EVERYONE necessarily should. I realize that you can't possibly understand my point of view, and I also know that in accepting others' beliefs with just as much potential validation as my own, I am obviously not "truly" accepting Christ and his "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY" ultimatum.

I DO in fact reject YOUR version of Christ, and YOUR version of God, I find them twisted and vile, and I have no room in my heart for them. So be it. The God I believe in made a Heaven big enough for you, me, Max Burbank, Mockery, and many other good-hearted souls of widely varying beliefs. I put MY faith in something better than a God obsessed with fickle pride and almost arbitarily assigned eternal damnation.

Think of the most kind-hearted and generous person you know. Do you think they have the potential in their heart to sentence a GOOD person to ETERNAL damnation for even a SLIGHTLY different set of theological beliefs as their own? And don't you think GOD would be somewhat BETTER than the best person YOU know? Do you think GOD would be so petty as to sentence HUMAN BEINGS, for whom years, months, weeks, days, and HOURS are a significant measure of time, yet a fleeting hiccup to the INFINITY of God, to ETERNAL DAMNATION?? Could we not, say, "learn our lesson" in perhaps a mere million billion years instead?

And given this statement you made earlier:

"Where I stand in relation to you is irrelevant. Where I stand in realtion to GOD is. "

WHY are you so concerned with where OTHER people are going to spend eternity anyway? Where I or Burbank end up is irrelevant, you should be more concerned about YOU rather than constantly telling us where we're supposedly going to end up.




Ooooh! And now I see that we have to be BAPTIZED on top of everything else to get into heaven, according to Italian Stereotype. So Italian...does this mean that even if you HAVE done everything Ronnie says you need to do and have accepted Christ and think that all other religions are full of mistaken fools, you will STILL go to hell if you haven't had a priest dunk your head in water??

[mburbank]

Here's the ironic thing; appart from the many requirements you know about, ie. accepting Jesus, Baptism et al, God has one ultra necessary requirement without which you will never pass the Pearly Gates.


And it's a secret. See, that's the test. If you really, really, really were follwing God, you'd just know. Word on the street is it has something to do with socks and my involve feeding ducks. Jesus knew what it was. And you better get to figerin' cause if you die without taking care of it... well, lets just say you better bring the makings for s'mores.