Ronald Reagan Dies at 93

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121883,00.html

Mourning in America: Ronald Reagan Dies at 93

Saturday, June 05, 2004

Ronald Wilson Reagan (search), the 40th president of the United States, died today at his home in California. He was 93 years old and had been suffering from Alzheimer's disease.

"My family and I would like the world to know that President Ronald Reagan has passed away after 10 years of Alzheimer's disease at 93 years of age," Former First Lady Nancy Reagan said in a statement. "We appreciate everyone's prayers."

In Paris, White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said President Bush was notified of Reagan's death in Paris at about 4:10 p.m., EDT, by White House chief of staff Andy Card. Bush offered his condolences to Reagan's widow shortly thereafter.

"He always told us that for America the best is yet to come," Bush said of Reagan. "We comfort ourselves by telling ourselves that the same is true for him. ... We know a shining city is waiting for him."

The United States flag over the White House was lowered to half staff within an hour.

Reagan's body was expected to be taken to his presidential library and museum in Simi Valley, Calif., and then flown to Washington to lie in state in the Capitol Rotunda. His funeral was expected to be at the National Cathedral, an event likely to draw world leaders. The body was to be returned to California for a sunset burial at his library.

Reagan, known as "The Great Communicator," was elected to office in a landslide victory over incumbent Democrat Jimmy Carter in 1980 and is credited with revitalizing the country's stagnant economy and forcing the end of the Cold War (search) during his two terms in office from 1981 to 1989.

His charismatic personality and staunch conservatism led the nation in a Republican resurgence that kept the GOP in the White House for 12 years.

Reagan remained largely out of public view since announcing he had Alzheimer's disease (search) in November 1994. He came to symbolize Alzheimer's, which has no cure, during the last decade of his life. Reagan turned the disclosure of his disease as an opportunity to make a final address to the nation, expressing in an open letter to the American people the same patriotic fervor that had catapulted him into the presidency.

"When the Lord calls me home, whenever that may be, I will leave with the greatest love for this country of ours and eternal optimism for its future," Reagan wrote at the time. "I know that for America there will always be a bright dawn ahead."

The Reagan Revolution

Ascending to the presidency on a pledge to restore "the great, confident roar of American progress and growth and optimism," Reagan — a former actor and two-term California governor — remade the Republican Party in his own image of fiscal and social conservatism. Reagan brought a grandfatherly warmth to Republican issues and values that attracted supporters across a broad political spectrum.

He successfully implemented most of his campaign promises: reducing government bureaucracy and regulation, cutting taxes in favor of "trickle-down, or supply-side economics — which became known as Reaganomics (search) — and building a strong defense while fighting the spread of communism. These moves won him wide appeal and an even wider margin of victory in 1984, when he won the electoral votes of 49 states.

The role of president would prove to be more dramatic than any screen role Reagan had assumed in his pre-politics career in Hollywood. Just 69 days into his first term, Reagan was shot in Washington by John Hinckley, Jr. (search), but his quick and full recovery from the assassination attempt elevated him to new levels of national popularity.

His health was a recurring theme of his presidency as Reagan underwent major surgeries in 1981, 1985 and 1987.

Reagan was hawkish in foreign policy, staunchly committed to thwarting the spread of communism. His administration gave strong financial and military support to the Contra Rebels who were fighting Nicaragua's communist government and supported the government of El Salvador's fight against communist guerillas and rebels resisting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. He dispatched U.S. troops to the island of Grenada when it was perceived as succumbing to Cuba in 1983.

Reagan's war on communism led to an escalation of Cold War rhetoric and defense spending that mushroomed the national debt and brought harsh criticism upon his administration. But the efforts eventually resulted in a series of high-level summit meetings with Soviet Prime Minister Mikhail Gorbachev, arms reduction pacts with the Soviets and eventually the break-up of the Soviet Union. That success was dramatically symbolized by the tearing down of the Berlin Wall.

His fight against communism also led to the darkest moment of his presidency, when he confessed in November 1986 that the United States had secretly sold arms to Iran as part of an arms-for-hostages deal, and then used the proceeds from the sale to fund aid to the Contra rebels. The scandal resulted in the indictment of high-level government officials.

Reagan waged war not only on communism, but on terrorism, most visibly in 1986 when he sent jets to bomb Libya in retaliation for the death of Americans in a Berlin dance club.

Star Power

Born Feb. 6, 1911, in Tampico, Ill., Reagan graduated from Eureka College in 1932 and worked as a radio sportscaster in the Midwest before being discovered by a Hollywood agent and being signed by Warner Bros. He made his acting debut in "Love Is in the Air" in 1937, made Air Force training films during World War II, and went on to make 52 movies. Reagan also served as a spokesman for the General Electric Company, hosted and acted on the General Electric Theater television series, and was also host of the television series, "Death Valley Days."

Reagan and his first wife, actress Jane Wyman, had two children, Maureen and Michael, before divorcing in 1948. He married actress Nancy Davis in 1952 and had two more children, Patricia and Ronald Prescott, who goes by Ron. Maureen Reagan died of cancer in 2001.

Reagan moved from acting into politics as a five-time president of the Screen Actors Guild. Originally a Democrat, Reagan's ideology shifted to the right as he sided with the government attack on the influence of communism in the entertainment world.

But it was a well-received televised speech on behalf of Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater in 1964 that catapulted Reagan's political career from the sound stage to the world stage. Reagan was elected California governor in 1966 and again in 1970. He made two failed attempts at the White House in 1968 and 1976 before his 1980 victory.

Known for his personal charm and talent — and for making masterful speeches to win support for his policies — many of the foreign leaders with whom he met were said to have been more impressed with his star quality than his intellect.

"You could see it in the faces of the foreign leaders — Mitterand, Thatcher, even Gorbachev," a U.S. official who accompanied Reagan on many trips abroad was quoted as saying by Lou Cannon in his biography, "President Reagan: The Role of a Lifetime."

"They didn't pay much attention to what he was saying. Either they had heard it before, or they realized it was just talking points. But Reagan the man, the politician, fascinated them. It was almost as if they were saying, what does this man have that works so well for him? It was like they wanted to bottle it and take it home and use it themselves."

The question of whether the commander in chief had a harder-edged side behind closed doors was the subject of some speculation and even humor. In a "Saturday Night Live" skit in the late 1980s, the late comic Phil Hartman portrayed a Reagan who was gentle and grandfatherly to Oval Office visitors but, behind closed doors, transformed into a sharp-minded scowling dictator who barked orders to his advisers.

While he wasn't always cooperative with reporters, avoiding unwanted questions by feigning deafness as he approached a waiting helicopter, he maintained a genial relationship with the White House press corps, whose members nicknamed him the Gipper in reference to the character he portrayed in the film, "Knute Rockne, All American."

Reagan's approval rating remained high through his eight years in office, and Democrats struggled for years against the image of old-fashioned values, patriotism and hard work that Reagan fashioned for himself and his party.

As a tribute to Reagan's legacy, Congress and President Bill Clinton officially changed the name of Washington National Airport to Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport in February 1998. And in 2003, former First Lady Nancy Reagan was on hand to christen the USS Ronald Reagan, the Navy's newest nuclear powered aircraft carrier.

But perhaps the image of Reagan that will be remembered most was his ability to unite the nation under the strength of his convictions, such as when he spoke to all Americans, and
specifically schoolchildren, in the wake of the 1986 explosion of the space shuttle Challenger:

"It's all part of taking a chance and expanding man's horizons," he said. "The future doesn't belong to the fainthearted; it belongs to the brave. The Challenger crew was pulling us into the future, and we'll continue to follow them."

Reagan is survived by his wife and three children.
###

[mburbank]

Let the hagiography commence.

[ScruU2wice]

4 entries found for hagiography.
hag·i·og·ra·phy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hg-gr-f, hj-)
n. pl. hag·i·og·ra·phies

1. Biography of saints.
2. A worshipful or idealizing biography.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I thought it was necessary :(

[Cosmo Electrolux]

Does this mean that Ronnie Raygun has to stop posting?

[GAsux]

Glad someone clarified because I was too ashamed to confess that I had no idea what that meant.

I was like, yeah, let um, that stuff begin, or whatever.

[mburbank]

I'm all about the vocabulary.

[El Blanco]

Damn you and your big, fancy book lernin'.

Do you think Nancy will donate his 18 lbs brass balls to the Smithsonian?

Say what you will about his politics, you had to love the guy's drive. When he wanted something, he would move mountains to get it.

And he was a pretty good guy personaly. Consider how his biggest political rival and agitator, Tip O'Neil, was also one of his best friends. Hell, even with all the shit thast happened with the USSR, Gorbachev actually liked him.

And, I am a little young to remember clearly, so maybe I've got the rose tinted glasses here, but I don't remember any of Reagan's political ads being muslinging. He always had this sense of optimism. He always talked about the City on the Hill. He wanted to focus onthe good things in the country rather than hoist the problems on the other side.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

It's odd, but even though most friends of mine dislike him for his policy, we're all a bit sad b/c of this. I mean, any death is of course sad, but I have to admit that some of my earliest memories as a child are of Reagan giving a speech about something or another.

Simply politically speaking, he was the yin to FDR's yang. Those two men are human representations of what direction "the great debate" took in the 20th Century. They both created electoral coalitions that transcended the typical party allegiances, and won big b/c of it.

Oh well. I think it'd be fair to hold off Reagan bashing for at least a week or two. ;)

[AChimp]

Am I allowed to post the same joke in here that I made in General Blabber?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Had it been funny, I'd say yes. :)

[The One and Only...]

Simply politically speaking, he was the yin to FDR's yang.

No, he wasn't. Both were interventionists.

[AChimp]

Had it been funny, I'd say yes. :)
It made Cosmo laugh! >:

[ScruU2wice]

No, it made cosmo spit out coffee :rolleyes

[El Blanco]

Simply politically speaking, he was the yin to FDR's yang.

No, he wasn't. Both were interventionists.

Well, everything Republicans say about Reagan, Democrats say about FDR.

And vice versa.

[Royal Tenenbaum]

Reagan died of a cerebral hemorrhage?

[Rez]

well hoo-rah, the dumb bastard (who was effectively dead many many years ago anyway, being the poster child of senile bastards) has finally kicked the can, i sense a celebration on the same scale of when nixon did the same.
that is, non-existant but generally a good vibe.

my favourite thing he ever did was hold a press conference about the chavez led grape boycott.... while eating grapes.
gotta hand it to him that time, that was both classy and hilarious.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Simply politically speaking, he was the yin to FDR's yang.

No, he wasn't. Both were interventionists.

Yes junior, that's why I put emphasis on "simply politically speaking." I understand that Reagan was more rhetoric than policy, but that's aside from the point. Politics is often about perception, not reality (if I only had a dime.....).

This is why some douche bag, duckling Republican in the House just this past year wanted to replace FDR on the dime with Reagan. He did that because he could get away with it, as long as it was Reagan. He couldn't have made the same case for Richard Nixon or Gerald Ford. Conservatives wanted Barry Goldwater, but they got Ronald Reagan, and whether or not he was 100% ideologically consistent, he is still the symbol for what is now modern conservatism (as indiscenerable as that may be in this day and age).

Furthermore, to call Reagan an "interventionist" would require setting a strict definition upon conservatism. Which is it, the "progressive conservatism" of Disraeli and Churchill, the traditionalist conservatism of Maistre, the liberal conservatism of Burke, or the "conservative socialism" of perhaps the first neo-con, Clemens Von Metternich....? Are we talking strictly in terms of American conservatism? Are we talking Peter Viereck or William F. Buckley? Irving Kristol and his "populist conservatism"? This debate could spin around forever and ever, which leads me back to my first point-- it's impossible for anyone to be the president of this country and remain completely ideologically consistent. The guy you call an interventionist would be called a passive, reactionary moralist by another.

[El Blanco]

So, Rez, did you think that was actually funny, or are you just a scumbag?

There is already a thread in GB for stupid people to make themselves feel smart and edgy by pissing on the dead.

You want to celebrate because someone died of alzheimer's? Thats like Michael Savage wishing AIDS on someone.

It is one thing to say "I don't like his politics" or "I didn't like what he did" but to celebrate his death and make fun of his disease is just pathetic.

[Rez]

its not pissing, its not "hehehe," i'm not (forcefully) being a smartass, i just didnt like the guy.
at all.

but i did remember him for something cool he did, despite my disposition towards him, but seeing as how you're way fucking sensitive, you probably that i was being sarcastic...

[KevinTheOmnivore]

:tear

http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/S/htmlS/spittingimag/spittingimagIMAGE/spittingimag1.jpg

:philcollins

[El Blanco]

its not pissing, its not "hehehe," i'm not (forcefully) being a smartass, i just didnt like the guy.
at all.

Then I guess I misinterpretted "hoo-rah the dumb bastard is dead"

but i did remember him for something cool he did, despite my disposition towards him, but seeing as how you're way fucking sensitive, you probably that i was being sarcastic...

I didn't care about the grape comment, it was how you made fun of his alzheimer's and said his death is causing a good vibe. I guess we can add literacy and tact to the list of things you don't have.

[AChimp]

UH OH. We better not laugh at anyone's death because that wouldn't be tactful. :(

[El Blanco]

He seemed to relish the thought of people dying of alzheimer's. You don't see why that's a bad thing?

[Rez]

should i have more respect for him for the completley mundane and involuntary act of dying?
he sucked when he was alive, he'll forever suck in death.

[mburbank]

I'm from Massachusetts, I was in my twenties, and my recollection is not of Tip Oneil liking him. In his Memoirs Tip writes about Reagan dismantling every single thing he'd spent his whole life working toward, turning the middle class on the poor and being the stupidest president he'd ever worked with.

Nixon is the President of my youth, and I suppose though I hated the evil bastard, I still feel the grudging nostaligia Kev talks about. What I remember about Reagan right off the bat is that he was a genial liar who didn't even know when he was lying during the campaign. Many of his annecedotes, both the folksy charmers and the venemous anti-poor ones, turned out to have no basis at all in fact. Some of them he made up, and some were movies (See the 'ball turret gunner' annecdote, one he continued to tell even after he'd been told it was from a movie). I think being an actor should disqualify you from running foir office, and I'm an actor.

I feel bad for anyone who dies slowly from Alsheimers, although I think that 'slowly' being only ten years is a damn lie and his physicians knew it . But the manner of his death doesn't change what I think of his presidency. That being said, I think our current President makes Reagan and the Bush he gave us look like gold in comparison.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Yikes. I'll be the unpopular guy who posts this rant....

KILLER, COWARD, CONMAN -
GOOD RIDDANCE, RONNIE REAGAN
MORE PROOF ONLY THE GOOD DIE YOUNG
Sunday, June 6, 2004
by Greg Palast


You're not going to like this. You shouldn't speak ill of the dead. But in this
case, someone's got to.

Ronald Reagan was a conman. Reagan was a coward. Reagan was a killer.

In 1987, I found myself stuck in a crappy little town in Nicaragua named
Chaguitillo. The people were kind enough, though hungry, except for one surly
young man. His wife had just died of tuberculosis.

People don't die of TB if they get some antibiotics. But Ronald Reagan, big
hearted guy that he was, had put a lock-down embargo on medicine to Nicaragua
because he didn't like the government that the people there had elected.

Ronnie grinned and cracked jokes while the young woman's lungs filled up and she
stopped breathing. Reagan flashed that B-movie grin while they buried the mother
of three.

And when Hezbollah terrorists struck and murdered hundreds of American marines
in their sleep in Lebanon, the TV warrior ran away like a whipped dog ... then
turned around and invaded Grenada. That little Club Med war was a murderous PR
stunt so Ronnie could hold parades for gunning down Cubans building an airport.

I remember Nancy, a skull and crossbones prancing around in designer dresses,
some of the "gifts" that flowed to the Reagans -- from hats to million-dollar
homes -- from cronies well compensated with government loot. It used to be
called bribery.

And all the while, Grandpa grinned, the grandfather who bleated on about "family
values" but didn't bother to see his own grandchildren.

The New York Times today, in its canned obit, wrote that Reagan projected,
"faith in small town America" and "old-time values." "Values" my ass. It was
union busting and a declaration of war on the poor and anyone who couldn't buy
designer dresses. It was the New Meanness, bringing starvation back to America
so that every millionaire could get another million.

"Small town" values? From the movie star of the Pacific Palisades, the Malibu
mogul? I want to throw up.

And all the while, in the White House basement, as his brain boiled away, his
last conscious act was to condone a coup d'etat against our elected Congress.
Reagan's Defense Secretary Casper the Ghost Weinberger with the crazed Colonel,
Ollie North, plotted to give guns to the Monster of the Mideast, Ayatolla
Khomeini.

Reagan's boys called Jimmy Carter a weanie and a wuss although Carter wouldn't
give an inch to the Ayatolla. Reagan, with that film-fantasy tough-guy con in
front of cameras, went begging like a coward cockroach to Khomeini pleading on
bended knee for the release of our hostages.

Ollie North flew into Iran with a birthday cake for the maniac mullah -- no
kidding --in the shape of a key. The key to Ronnie's heart.

Then the Reagan roaches mixed their cowardice with crime: taking cash from the
hostage-takers to buy guns for the "contras" - the drug-runners of Nicaragua
posing as freedom fighters.

I remember as a student in Berkeley the words screeching out of the bullhorn,
"The Governor of the State of California, Ronald Reagan, hereby orders this
demonstration to disburse" ... and then came the teargas and the truncheons. And
all the while, that fang-hiding grin from the Gipper.

In Chaguitillo, all night long, the farmers stayed awake to guard their kids
from attack from Reagan's Contra terrorists. The farmers weren't even
Sandinistas, those 'Commies' that our cracked-brained President told us were
'only a 48-hour drive from Texas.' What the hell would they want with Texas,
anyway?

Nevertheless, the farmers, and their families, were Ronnie's targets.

In the deserted darkness of Chaguitillo, a TV blared. Weirdly, it was that
third-rate gangster movie, "Brother Rat." Starring Ronald Reagan.

Well, my friends, you can rest easier tonight: the Rat is dead.

Killer, coward, conman. Ronald Reagan, good-bye and good riddance.

###

Greg Palast is author of the New York Times bestseller, The Best Democracy Money
Can Buy. www.GregPalast.com

[GAsux]

Why Kevin you brute!

My favorite part of that whole speil was the part about "while as a student at Berkley...". What? Who would have guessed it! Can it be!

If it weren't so partisan and hateful perhaps some of the arguments would hold merit but it gets lost in petty name calling and slander. For shame Kevin, for shame!

[Dole]

I remember seeing a national enquirer story about reagan and alzheimers years ago, and the headline read 'He doesnt remember being President, but his warmth and humour shine through' - I had that on my wall for years.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

My favorite part of that whole speil was the part about "while as a student at Berkley...". What? Who would have guessed it! Can it be!

If it weren't so partisan and hateful perhaps some of the arguments would hold merit but it gets lost in petty name calling and slander. For shame Kevin, for shame!

Well, FYI, Greg Palast is the guy who broke the bogus Florida voting list story in 2000. He''s essentially the Matt Drudge of the Left, except he just doesn't have as many tabloid journalism points. :)

And you can't blame someone for coming across as partisan regarding Reagan. Reagan was a polarizing figure, he was one of those "love him, or hate him"kind of people. He had a very partisan platform. Some saw it as visionary, others saw it as destructive.

[The One and Only...]

That article is absolutely laughable. He really needs to read up on Nicaraguan history.

The Sandinistas weren't even supported by the majority of their own people during Reagan's age, and it took the Contra rebels to open up elections. This guy doesn't even mention that the Sandinista's gained power through a bloody revolt.

Not to mention that many of the Nicaraguan people could hardly afford antibiotics in the first place.

Also, I think you missed the point of my post. Political doctrines, no matter what name you give them, can't be opposites of one another if they share something in common.

And the first neocons were Trotskyites.

[Dole]

Maybe you need to look at more than one source for your history, dickhead.

[mburbank]

Here's a link to an article I wrote back in 2001 about Reagan's impending demise. Interestingly, it's title uses the term 'revisionist history' before W and company abused the term into meaninglessnes.

http://www.forbisthemighty.com/acidlogic/revisionist_history_shelter.htm

[ranxer]

i dealt with a few days of idiots cooing about how great reagan was but now i'm just sick of it, damn, when's it going to stop?!

his coffins' on tour now, what fuggin lunacy.

most americans really don't have a clue how our foriegn policy affects the rest of the world, this reagan bullcrap is another example of how many brainwashed idiots we have here. >:

[sspadowsky]

ARE THEY SELLING CASKET TOUR T-SHIRTS? :love

[KevinTheOmnivore]

The Sandinistas weren't even supported by the majority of their own people during Reagan's age, and it took the Contra rebels to open up elections. This guy doesn't even mention that the Sandinista's gained power through a bloody revolt.

Yeah, and the jackass hardly even touches upon how useful the Contras were at bashing in the skulls of religious missionaries. Those things are like fucking 2 week old grapefruits!

Also, I think you missed the point of my post. Political doctrines, no matter what name you give them, can't be opposites of one another if they share something in common.

That's the most absurd thing I've heard you say in this thread, today. They can't be polar if they share commonalities? Is that merely in theory, or in practice as well? If Reagan wasn't a conservative, who was? What then was FDR? You need to think before you post, b/c you don't know nearly as much as you'd like to pretend....

And the first neocons were Trotskyites.

Wrong. Read some Metternich, or maybe even some Cortes. Conservatism in the 18th and 19th Centuries was divided into various camps. Before what had been called the "great reversal," conservatives espoused "aristocratic internationalism," and interventionism. Later, Cortes saw the battle lines between Catholocism and early Socialism (he thought liberalism would be the first to go). Catholocism and socialism were both interventionist doctrines that transcended national boundaries.

You'd be surprised to discover that the little "ideology quiz" made up on the internet doesn't quite suffice in the grand scheme of things.

[Stabby]

i dealt with a few days of idiots cooing about how great reagan was but now i'm just sick of it, damn, when's it going to stop?!

his coffins' on tour now, what fuggin lunacy.

most americans really don't have a clue how our foriegn policy affects the rest of the world, this reagan bullcrap is another example of how many brainwashed idiots we have here. >:

:( I feel ya brotha.

Reagans legacy continues to haunt the United States. The celebration of crass consumerism, greed and intolerance.

and we now have at least until Friday of media coverage of the "great communicator" ends. kinda surprising seing as how the media is liberaly biased right? I mean, that's what all the republicans I know tell me.

[The One and Only...]

Yeah, and the jackass hardly even touches upon how useful the Contras were at bashing in the skulls of religious missionaries. Those things are like fucking 2 week old grapefruits!

Point being...?

AlsThat's the most absurd thing I've heard you say in this thread, today. They can't be polar if they share commonalities? Is that merely in theory, or in practice as well? If Reagan wasn't a conservative, who was? What then was FDR? You need to think before you post, b/c you don't know nearly as much as you'd like to pretend....

Who said liberals and conservatives are polar opposites?

Wrong. Read some Metternich, or maybe even some Cortes. Conservatism in the 18th and 19th Centuries was divided into various camps. Before what had been called the "great reversal," conservatives espoused "aristocratic internationalism," and interventionism. Later, Cortes saw the battle lines between Catholocism and early Socialism (he thought liberalism would be the first to go). Catholocism and socialism were both interventionist doctrines that transcended national boundaries.

Neoconservatives aren't only characterized by interventionalism. Those were not neocons.

[ItalianStereotype]

stabby, the fact that you identify yourself so readily with ranxer strips you of any credibility you may have had.

[Miss Modular]

As much as I have grown to deplore the actions he made during his presidency, I'm getting sick and tired of people ripping the guy apart.

As for the death itself, I'm indifferent. He had Alzheimer's. It was inevitable.

[Anonymous]

Um, isn't death always inevitable?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Yeah, and the jackass hardly even touches upon how useful the Contras were at bashing in the skulls of religious missionaries. Those things are like fucking 2 week old grapefruits!

Point being...?

The point being that they were savage fucking killers with no respect for human life, but I'm sure you knew that already......

AlsThat's the most absurd thing I've heard you say in this thread, today. They can't be polar if they share commonalities? Is that merely in theory, or in practice as well? If Reagan wasn't a conservative, who was? What then was FDR? You need to think before you post, b/c you don't know nearly as much as you'd like to pretend....

Who said liberals and conservatives are polar opposites?[/quote]

You haven't answered a single question I've asked you, however, I'll answer this:

Since the development of our nation, there has been one big question. This question is essentially (in a very paraphrased text version) what formed the original two-faction divide in our country. Even in voting patterns in the first and second U.S. Congress, you can see the debate over how active our government should be developing.

The "Liberalism" that was applied by FDR, and originated by those before him, such as Al Smith and the progressives, called for an interventionist government. To cut things short, Reagan is the electoral result of the forces that worked against that philosophy.

So, in this country, since we have a two-party system ultimately brought about due to one big debate, then Liberalism and conservatism do in fact oppose each other.

Neoconservatives aren't only characterized by interventionalism. Those were not neocons.

You are wrong. Elaborate, or go away. Those men were interventionists, internationalists, and many supported internationalism as a rejection of leftist doctrine, seeing the world divided in half (much like the machtpolitikers of the 10970s).

[mburbank]

I've decided not to encourage OAO

As fate would hve it, I'm forced to be driving through the DC area on the day of the state funeral. As I'm mired in traffic I will think of this as one more reason I don't like Reagan.

[Cosmo Electrolux]

too bad that alzheimer's doesn't hurt like a motherfucker...then maybe justice would be served.

[glowbelly]

Um, isn't death always inevitable?

:lol

[El Blanco]

i dealt with a few days of idiots cooing about how great reagan was but now i'm just sick of it, damn, when's it going to stop?!

his coffins' on tour now, what fuggin lunacy.

most americans really don't have a clue how our foriegn policy affects the rest of the world, this reagan bullcrap is another example of how many brainwashed idiots we have here. >:

:( I feel ya brotha.

Reagans legacy continues to haunt the United States. The celebration of crass consumerism, greed and intolerance.

and we now have at least until Friday of media coverage of the "great communicator" ends. kinda surprising seing as how the media is liberaly biased right? I mean, that's what all the republicans I know tell me.

Are you two honestly that dumb? You two can't possibly be bitching and moaning that the man who was president for 8 years, won two landslide victories, credited for ending the Cold War (whether he did or not, he gets the credit), and reshaped the face of American politics is getting extensive media coverage days after his death.

A lot fo people disagree with his politics. Thats their right and it should be encouraged. But there is no disputing the fact that he changed the coruse of this country and probably the world.

And since you two are such anti-consumerism, counterculturalists, why are you watching all this TV, let alone the major networks?

Oh well, I don't have much else to say, those statements just struct me as profoundly stupid.

[Spectre X]

Hitler also changed the course of his country and the world's history.

Just thouhgt you'd like to know that when you go on about 'stupid statements'.

[GAsux]

That's an excellent point. Remember that one time when Reagan decided to kill all the Jews in horribly violent, evil ways? And that other time that he decided that he wanted to take over the world?

Much like Hitler, clearly Rondal Reagan's impact on the course of world history was brutal and devastating.

[El Blanco]

Hitler also changed the course of his country and the world's history.

Just thouhgt you'd like to know that when you go on about 'stupid statements'.

And Hitler got plenty of coverage, and still does to this day. I'm not putting a moral value on Reagan's presidency, but who hear is blind enough to say that his demise isn't a rather large news story?

Do I think the world is abetter place because of Reagan, yes. Even if you don't, how the hell do you ignore his impact?

[Stabby]

But there is no disputing the fact that he changed the coruse of this country and probably the world.


You are absolutly right. He changed the world.

The selling of weapons to Iran and Iraq changed the world.

The second greatest loss of Marines (since Iwo Jima) in Lebanon did too.

The invasion of Grenada surely inspired changed.

Arming and training the Mujahideen from whence the Taliban and Al Qaeda have flowered changed the world as we can all see.

The extrememly costly and highly ineffective establishment of the War on Drugs had a great impact.

His reckless building up of the national debt and tearing down social systems seems to have changed the face of the Presidency. As did his constant lying, denial and projected stupidity. That changed the way we seem to hold those in power accountable.

No doubting the fact that he changed the world over here.

[The One and Only...]

The point being that they were savage fucking killers with no respect for human life, but I'm sure you knew that already......

I never said that the Contras were good, I said that the author's article is laughable. He's too one-sided.

So, in this country, since we have a two-party system ultimately brought about due to one big debate, then Liberalism and conservatism do in fact oppose each other.

I never said they didn't oppose each other. I said that they aren't polar opposites.

You are wrong. Elaborate, or go away. Those men were interventionists, internationalists, and many supported internationalism as a rejection of leftist doctrine, seeing the world divided in half (much like the machtpolitikers of the 10970s).

Neocons are not only typified by being war hawks, but also by stronger support for social welfare programs (though still far less than the left). They also tend to be stronger in their advocation for government involvement in the preservation of moral standards than their predecessors.

And besides, Irving Kristol is considered the founder of neoconservatism.

[conus]

I will always remember him for his lifelong loyalty to Ferdinand Marcos and Chiang Kai Chek. Despite the facts available to him, Reagan had the courage to believe their PR firms.

[Spectre X]

That's an excellent point. Remember that one time when Reagan decided to kill all the Jews in horribly violent, evil ways? And that other time that he decided that he wanted to take over the world?

Much like Hitler, clearly Rondal Reagan's impact on the course of world history was brutal and devastating.

You seem to have completely missed the point. I used Hitler in my arguement to show that changing the history of the world is not always a good thing, because Blanco made the impression that he DID mean this.

[ranxer]

el blanco
Are you two honestly that dumb? You two can't possibly be bitching and moaning that the man who was president for 8 years, won two landslide victories, credited for ending the Cold War (whether he did or not, he gets the credit), and reshaped the face of American politics is getting extensive media coverage days after his death.

call it what you like but i don't share the view that much of the media puts out about reagan, i was posting about these 'i love reagan' clips that keep replaying.. i turned on the regular broadcast tv for like 15 minutes several days in a row and couldnt find much more than reagan eulogies that painted a one sided story, ignoring the results of his 'well intentioned' policies that i don't actually credit to him as much as the people behind his administration.

i can't sum it up for you.. other's here listed some of the facts and accomplishments left out in reagans 'legacy' one thing that comes to mind that hasn't been mentioned is the obsenity of 'trickle down economics' that i think should be on his grave stone as a new way to enrich the slave owners. honestly, if the press went on to other more important news sooner we wouldnt have this discourse :/

here's one of the better ulogies that made it to regular press for what i consider my flavor of op/ed info:
Allowing stem-cell research could be a last win for the Gipper
http://www.postwritersgroup.com/archives/good0607.htm

[Abcdxxxx]

Wait is it over yet? Can't we have another 8 more funerals? We haven't managed to erase any trace of Kennedy funeral imagery from the publics minds yet, and there's still another few more months to capitilize off this before thr Rebulican convention. Maybe if we fly Nancy back and forth from Coast to Coast a few more times she'll keel over too. Lord knows Ronnie's been dead for a while now, and they just needed him to hit one last one for the gipper. For those too young to know, he wasn't someone we thought of as having a good sense of humor or being human. That's why he spawned entire careers of people who just did impressions to ridicule the guy. He wasn't what you'd call well liked, don't get it twisted....and his young republican following was scarier then any hardcore GW fan ever. So much for our Liberal media, they've managed to turn that piece of sit into some saint. We didn't even go to this length to honor Kennedy, who was an acting President in his prime.

[Dole]

Onion headline this week 'Reagan's body dies'

[AChimp]

That was my fucking joke after we found out about this. The Onion is always stealing my material. >:

[ArrowX]

Ronald Reagan Dies at 93

YAY!

No but nobody should live for 90 yeas at all. Have you ever seen a 90 year old with alsimers? They can't remember their fucking names(Thats what the disease does)

My great Grandpa had Alsimers he was a friggin wreck. Once he took his pills then fell asleep at about 8:00AM then woke up and it was 8:12 (he has a hand watch) then took more pills and almost died.

[ranxer]

get used to alzheimers its the favorite name for american mad cow disease.

[AChimp]

No it's not. :|

[ranxer]

time will tell

[AChimp]

No it won't. :|

[ranxer]

bleh, time will tell either way.. it may be a long while but we'll find out or maybe out descendants will.. hey, did they do an autopsy on reagun to see if it actually was alzheimers?? i imagine not.. like so many deaths that are because of 'unknown' causes or coroners reports that arent released we will have a hard time finding out what's really doing many people in. why are coroners jobs political positions now? with the amount of corporate collusion in our government i'm asserting its a position used to cover up alot of things they don't want us to know.

i hope your right chimp, but i have my suspicions.

and all you folks out there that write my suspicions off as 'conspiracy theory' i guess you think that if the information is 'secret,' missing, or just classified it must be because our government has our best interests at heart. again and again we've been shown that honesty and truth are prevelent in our policies right?

[AChimp]

Reagan was 93. He died from being OLD. That's what old people do. Die. Who cares if it was the arthritis, spotty liver or brain disease?

I think I've talked about this before, but they don't do autopsies on everyone. No one gives a shit what he died of because he was one OLD motherfucker. In fact, you only get an autopsy if there's a valid reason for it. Cutting an old dude open to confirm that his ticker stopped is a waste of time and resources. It was bound to happen any day. Any minute. Any second.

[Pub Lover]

Yeah, but wouldn't it be fun? Especially if you had one of those Victor Frankenstein dealies where you plug him in & can make him move around & stuff... :/

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I never said that the Contras were
good, I said that the author's article is laughable. He's too one-sided.

You're right. We should see the pleasant side to hired killers, such
as "opening up elections." I mean, democracy has a price, right? In
this case, it tended to be innocent people and their families. But
ya know the old saying, can't make an omlette.....

So, in this country, since we have a two-party system
ultimately brought about due to one big debate, then Liberalism and
conservatism do in fact oppose each other.

I never said they didn't oppose each other. I said that they aren't
polar opposites.

And what I said..ugh...is that in this country, confined within a two-party structure, they in fact do. I also said that Reagan and FDR symbolize that fundamental divide. They were, in essence, the physical products of the "great debate." NOTE: I realize there is a lot of gray matter betwen both of these men, and I do not dispute you on that. My point before however was that you can't dismiss the "polar" concept merely b/c they were both "interventionists." To do that, you would have to create a strict definition of what conservatism really is, which as I tried to display in my misunderstood Metternich/Neo-cons example, is quite difficult to do.

Neocons are not only typified by being war hawks, but also by
stronger support for social welfare programs (though still far less
than the left). They also tend to be stronger in their advocation
for government involvement in the preservation of moral standards
than their predecessors.

Metternich, and other CONSERVATIVES, believed in the aristocratic responsibility to aid others, and do charitable deeds. Some have called FDR (OH NO!) "conservative" in the way he, being a well-to-do aristocrat, took on public service to aid the lesser man (Your head is about to come off, I know). This example (the Metternich one) wasn't supposed to be so much about neo-cons, as it was to be about the ambiguity of conservatism itself. Afterall, you're very right about what you've said of neo-conservatism, but you also missed my point. I'm not saying the label neo-con came out of 18th and 19th century conservative movements. I'm saying the very ambiguity of "neo-conservatism" (the label in itself a sort of oxymoron) leads us back to your point about FDR and Reagan. What is a conservative, OAO?

And besides, Irving Kristol is considered the founder of
neoconservatism.

And....?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

bump!

[ItalianStereotype]

I'm glad you did, Kevin, because ranxer made me laugh.

beware your garbagemen, fools! they are CIA spooks come to find the anti-American garbage and take you away!