My town doesn't like free speech :(

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA39NERWCD.html

Mar 4, 2003

Man Charged With Trespassing After Refusing to Remove Pro-Peace Shirt in Mall

By Damita Chambers
Associated Press Writer

ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) - A man was charged with trespassing in a mall after he refused to take off a T-shirt that said "Peace on Earth" and "Give peace a chance."
Mall security approached Stephen Downs, 61, and his 31-year-old son, Roger, on Monday night after they were spotted wearing the T-shirts at Crossgates Mall in a suburb of Albany, the men said.

The two said they were asked to remove the shirts made at a store there, or leave the mall. They refused.

The guards returned with a police officer who repeated the ultimatum. The son took his T-shirt off, but the father refused.

"'I said, 'All right then, arrest me if you have to,'" Downs said. "So that's what they did. They put the handcuffs on and took me away."

Downs pleaded innocent to the charges Monday night. The New York Civil Liberties Union said it would help with his case if asked.

Police Chief James Murley said his officers were just responding to a complaint by mall security.

"We don't care what they have on their shirts, but they were asked to leave the property, and it's private property," Murley said.

A mall spokeswoman did not return calls Tuesday seeking comment.

Monday's arrest came less than three months after about 20 peace activists wearing similar T-shirts were told to leave by mall security and police. There were no arrests.
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AP-ES-03-04-03 2253EST

[Anonymous]

Crossgates Mall!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zebra 3]

This isn't the first or last time that someone's been harassed by mall cops.

[FS]

Blasted peace activists! How much more suffering and havoc must they wreak before they realize what they're doing?

[Carnivore]

They're lucky. In Texas, they'd be shot on sight for that.

[ranxer]

oh man, go back to bed america >:

what a country

[sspadowsky]

Fire the rent-a-cops as well as the cop who made the arrest. This is such a cut-and-dried case of 1st Amendment rights violations, I can't even believe the cop made the arrest.
________
SHEMALE PORN (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/36/shemale/videos/1)

[ranxer]

its a sign of the end times :faint

oh i so wish there Was a god sometimes 8)

[Protoclown]

Fire the rent-a-cops as well as the cop who made the arrest. This is such a cut-and-dried case of 1st Amendment rights violations, I can't even believe the cop made the arrest.

Yeah, just you keep up THAT kind of talk, mister, and they'll be visiting YOU next! >:

[Protoclown]

Looks like the guy is a lawyer according to this!

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/03/04/iraq.usa.shirt.reut/index.html

[BombsBurstingInAir]

I bet it was the "peace on earth" that did it. It has a slight Christian overtone to it, and that offended someone.

[punkgrrrlie10]

Fire the rent-a-cops as well as the cop who made the arrest. This is such a cut-and-dried case of 1st Amendment rights violations, I can't even believe the cop made the arrest

Actually it depends. The only cases they've discussed this issue was based on state law b/c state law defines what is public and private property. You can't actually go into someone's house and claim 1st amendment protection, b/c that would be trespass. Some states regard malls as private property, others regard it as public b/c it is open to the public. It will be interesting to see how it turns out.

[Carnivore]

If he is convicted, it will be an absolute travesty. This is fucking infuriating. It beautifully illustrates the depravity of our current administration. I've always believed that the Constitution would eventually prevail and this shit would all be a phase, but if this man is sent to prison for wearing a shirt advocating peace, I don't quite know what I'll do. My faith may be entirely shattered.

[starz]

does the mall police actually go through the police academy, and are just the rejects of the class ? Or do they even need to go to the police academy...

just wondering

[El Blanco]

Its not the shirts they were wearing that caused the problems, its the pants they weren't wearing.

Anyway, if it private property, they can be told to leave. But, no judge in the country is gonna keep this case going. If it even makes trial, it will get tossed.

And since when are the actions of a bunch of high school drop out rent-a-cops typical of what the rest of the country is doing? Like this is causing a police state.

[punkgrrrlie10]

but if this man is sent to prison for wearing a shirt advocating peace, I don't quite know what I'll do. My faith may be entirely shattered.

He most likely won't be sent to jail. That would be a violation of the 8th amendment of excessive punishment. He might get a fine that will probably be dismissed. It's more like, one of those test cases that establishes boundaries of what people can and can't do.

Not only that, but if he loses, which he most likely won't, that doesn't effect public rights to free speech.

[El Blanco]

I noticed something. We know what t-shirts they were wearing, but it mentions nothing of if they were doing anything more.

And what happened at that protest prior to that? Maybe mall security regocnized them and they happened to be blacklisted.

[punkgrrrlie10]

From what was mentioned in my con. law class today, they were eating at the food court.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

It was a man and his daughter, and yes, they were eating in the food court.

On Trespassing: THEY BOUGHT THE SHIRTS IN THE MALL!! This is an outrage....

I used to work in that crappy fucking mal. I'm ashamed. :(

When I go back to Albany on Sunday I might go bu the shirt and try it out, fuckin' fascists.

[punkgrrrlie10]

I heard they made the shirts themselves; that they didn't buy them at the mall.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

That isn't what has been reported, but I could be wrong. :/

[punkgrrrlie10]

so could I :)

[ranxer]

:lol i think that mall is going to find a lot of funny shirts around all of a sudden ;)

he's not going to get a fine ..probly, the mall is going to settle quick.. a couple people may lose thier jobs because of the unwanted attention.. :/ oops wish we had it on camera :lol

[GAsux]

Everyone knows that mall cops are nothing more than government stooges. They were probably just enforcing the anti-Old Navy clause of the Patriot Act.

[Protoclown]

I'm just wondering how this is going to affect my plans to spend the weekend camping in front of the White House with my "BUSH IS THE TERRORIST" t-shirt on.

[punkgrrrlie10]

doesn't affect anything b/c outside the white house is public property. :)

[Protoclown]

Did I mention that I wouldn't be wearing pants?

[punkgrrrlie10]

Unfortunately, obscenity is not protected by the 1st amendment. :( You could probably get away with it in west hollywood.

[AChimp]

You might get attacked by patriotic parking commissioners, Proto. :eek

[Zebra 3]

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030217/i/1045508952.2483232843.jpg
Body painted PETA protesters on the Rideau Canal

No fancy Constitutional rights required. You want to take off your pants, and protest? Come to Canada! This pic was a taken a couple of weeks ago in Ottawa, with a wind chill of -25C it only lasted 4 minutes, but plenty of time for this kid to get a good look.

[GAsux]

Ms. Punk,
True enough. Obscenity is not covered under the 1st Amendment. However, I can only conclude that you have never seen Proto naked.

Nudity as an artistic expression of the ideal male form is hardly obscene.

[Protoclown]

***psst***

thanks dude, your check will be arriving shortly

[GAsux]

No way,
I make homosexual references for fun, not for profit!


P.S., I'll PM you with my address :)

[Spectre X]

hey, Proto, I got a check in the mail today, it's with Dollars. are you sure you posted it to GAsux?

[FS]

I like how the kid simply collapsed on the ice at his first sight of topless women. Well. From the back anyway.

And I'm not insinuating anything, but that girl on the right IS Avril Lavigne, right?

[mburbank]

It's been widely reported that the shirt was purchased at the Mall. They will have a very difficult time making the case that their private property has the right to sell items you are forbidden to wear, moreover, unless a no-slogan stute is posted somewhere or they have a past practgice of asking people to remove shirts with slogans, they're going to have a very tough row to hoe.

The police however stupid they were to become involved are in the clear, as they were merely enforcing tresspassing laws once the mall security asked them to leave.

Bottom line? It's already national news and reflects the climate we currently live in. Widely reported nonsense helps. f there is no boycott of the Malll already underway, I'm sure there will be.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=112620&category=REGION&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=3/6/2003

Mall drops T-shirt charges

Guilderland-- Crossgates negates arrest after protesters show up to support man removed for wearing apparel with peace slogans

By ANNE MILLER, Staff writer
First published: Thursday, March 6, 2003

Crossgates Mall officials have dropped trespassing charges filed Monday against war protester Steve Downs, who wore a pro-peace T-shirt as he walked through the building that afternoon.

The decision to negate the arrest came Wednesday evening, after more than 100 anti-war protesters descended upon the mall wearing shirts similar to Downs'.

Tim Kelley, who works for the Pyramid Management Group that manages Crossgates and other malls throughout New York, said local managers had called the police.

The decision to drop the charges did not mean mall policy pertaining to inappropriate clothing had changed, he added.

"We'll have to address these things as they happen," he said.

But Downs said late Wednesday that mall officials are avoiding the central issue of free speech.

"The fact that they dropped the charges means they don't realize what the problem really is," he said.

Downs' arrest was the first of its type at the mall, although on Dec. 21 several people wearing similar attire were asked to leave the mall. Kelley added that all protesters asked to leave must have been causing a commotion. Mall officers have since asked people wearing anti-war T-shirts to exit the premises.

Shopping "is what (protesters) say they were doing, but that's not what people tell us they were doing," Kelley said.

The 100 or so protesters met at a mall entrance at noon to support Downs, who they believe was asked to leave the mall Monday afternoon because of the message on his shirt: "Peace on Earth" on one side and "Give Peace a Chance" on the other.

Wednesday's march, which lasted about two hours, was relatively peaceful, although there was a minor skirmish between a protester and someone apparently opposed to the anti-war cause. No one was arrested despite the desire expressed by many that they wanted to be handcuffed for their cause.

"This is a policy that's not enforced equally," said Erin O'Brien, an organizer with Women Against War and a leader of Wednesday's protest. Her organization sold anti-war, pro-free speech shirts to protesters for $15, "$12 if you are willing to be arrested in the shirt," according to an e-mail sent to supporters. She said she sold about 60 shirts.

About half of those at the mall were anti-war protest veterans. The rest appeared to be galvanized by what they labeled a civil rights violation.

"Whatever your belief is, you should be able to wear that," said Sharon Springs resident Leigha 24, who took the early afternoon off from her job at the Special Olympics office in Schenectady.

The protest included mothers pushing strollers, youths sporting skull and crossbones bandannas and salt-and-pepper haired teachers wearing ties.

"Many in my congregation will not approve of what I'm doing," Pastor Maggie Sebastian of Tomhannock said. She was prepared to miss Ash Wednesday services at Poestenkill Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) if she was arrested. "I have to be true to what I feel God is calling me to do."

Shortly after 12 p.m., O'Brien led the group into the mall, up the escalators and into the food court. They occupied tables for about a half an hour. They then walked past stores and wound up at mall management offices.

Jared Levin and Ronald Wilson watched some of the goings on from their BC Sports Collectibles store. They had mixed opinions on whether the protesters should be there.

"As long as they're not disrupting anything, it's OK," said Wilson, the store manager.

But added Levin: "They're disrupting people's lunch."

Henry Marks, a World War II veteran, was eating lunch at the mall with his wife. He supports President Bush's stance. His wife is against the war.

"I think they could find a better way to spend their time," he said of the protesters.

A minor disturbance broke out when one man, dressed in a vest with a large, black POW patch on the back, raced into the food court at one point, shoved a man with a no war statement handwritten on his shirt, and demanded the protesters leave.

"You freaks!" he yelled.

He was quickly ushered away by plainclothes mall security.

Downs' arrest the day before drew worldwide attention.

Guilderland Police Chief James Murley said his offices received hundreds of e-mails, from California to London, that would have made his secretaries blush. Officials were called Nazis and worse.

"We didn't go down because the guy was wearing a a T-shirt," Murley said. "We went down because we were called."

According to statements given the police, a customer complained to Macy's security that Downs and his 31-year-old son, Roger, were arguing with a group of individuals, and "was afraid of what might happen."

A mall security officer asked them to remove their shirts, the statements read. Charges were filed, which Murley said gave the police officer no choice but to arrest him. Downs denied confronting anyone.

Mall officials distributed a written statement Wednesday defending their actions. At first the officials promised that someone would address the crowd at 1:30 p.m., but after 2 p.m. they said no one would be available.

A proposal that addresses the issue of free speech in malls was filed last month in the state Assembly by Suffolk County Democrat Steve Englebright. The legislation would require privately owned complexes with at least 20 stores and 250,000 square feet of leasable space to stipulate in the building's master plan an area where citizens can congregate to express their opinions. The bill is co-sponsored in the state Senate by Carl Kruger, a fellow Democrat from Brooklyn.

Colonie Center Marketing Manager Amy Raimo said that her mall does not permit protests but would never ask someone to leave because of words on T-shirts unless they were obscene.

"We sort of have to be like Switzerland," Raimo said. "We don't allow groups to come in and hand out information on elected officials. We don't allow church groups."

Professor Lawrence Wittner, who teaches history at the University at Albany, said the differences in anti-war protests today are that people are more concerned about the prospect of mass destruction but find themselves with fewer public outlets for their opinions.

"These malls seem to be walled cities of a kind where freedom of speech and freedom of assembly is banned," Wittner said.

At Crossgates, the protest disbursed quietly around 2:10 p.m. O'Brien seemed disappointed.

"What do you have to do to get arrested around here," she asked.

She said she has been negotiating with mall officials to allow her organization to set up an information table in the mall. She expects that to happen next week. Until then, she told the remaining crowd same place, same time, same protest Sunday afternoon.
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[ranxer]

No one was arrested despite the desire expressed by many that they wanted to be handcuffed for their cause.

:lol "arrest me! i dare ya!"

very nice turn of events.. nice to see more people trusting thier rights. thanks for the update :)

[FS]

What a pathetic display. This whole thing was weird and all, but jeez, everyone sure blew it out of proportions.

[ranxer]

i think this is the year for blowing things outta proportion..
the fear campaign against terrorism with the ashcroft boogey man hunt and all watch your neigbor crap kinda sets us up to freak out if we see something remotely like hitlers gestapo arresting people for thier opinions.. i know that the first time i saw that arrest in the paper i thought holy shit! i hope they ask me to take my buttons off before i get arrested! .. :lol yea i freaked some for a few minutes hah