Sethomas -- Gematria

[kahljorn]

What was it you said about the gematria of the hebrew language not being created until after the founding of the penteauch? Did you mean the numerical values weren't equated with words until after, or that they simply didnt have a numerical value for the alphabet?

And what's your "Source".

[Sethomas]

"Each letter in Bebrew has a numerical value... This usage is not biblical. The earliest traces of it are found on Maccabean coins (about the second century B.C.)"

From Biblical Hebrew Step by Step, by Menahem Mansoor.

[kahljorn]

okay.. but did you know there are no numbers in hebrew? There's just letters, with numerical values.

[Sethomas]

Obviously.

[kahljorn]

Okay, that's all i was wondering. You made it sound like the letters didn't even have a numerical value until after the creation of the torah.

[Sethomas]

Umm, that's true, though.

[kahljorn]

you're right, when they went to buy food instead of saying ill have aleph apple .. what did they do?

[Sethomas]

It's the same thing as how we didn't need the arabic symbol 6 to say "six", genius. I'd show the difference between the written and spoken numbers, but it's been months since i studied hebrew and I've forgotten most of it.

[kahljorn]

Yea, but when you're speaking you don't need "Symbols" but you do need something to say. That's why you're speaking. The symbol had absolutely nothing to do with the letter being a number.

[kahljorn]

Anyway, thanks for trying.. or being an asshole about it. You'll make a good philosopher someday. I'm going to go scroll through legions of etymology.

[Perndog]

Can you combine a few characters into a word that signifies a number?

Like "SIX" for example?

[Sethomas]

That was my point. Just because you have words for numbers doesn't mean you have symbols, and the case of Hebrew is that the phonetic characters weren't associated with numbers until long after the Torah was written. I've read that in a couple of places, but my teach-yourself Hebrew book is the only source I brought with me to Chicago.

[kahljorn]

My point is that words can be associated with a number without a symbol. Like saying "Six", you don't need to be able to write it to say it... children learn to speak before they learn to write. And in the case of hebrew, since ALEPH is both One and A(kind of like english when you say something like, "A apple"). Besides, i think before the actually writ symbol they used stuff like pictographs, and egyptian stuff. I was just wondering if you had any resources on it that I didn't.
The best ive found is that Gematria was supposively borrowed from the greeks, because the greek alphabet had the required amount of numbers while the hebrew alphabet didnt add the five extra required number/letters till later. Except you then find that the greeks got their idea of an alphabet from the Semites, since their original alphabet had 28 letters, while the supposed modern hebrew at the time only had 22. The problem with that is, well, define what the fuck a semite is and you can easily turn it into "Hebrew".
Oh, also, the only reason you need a total of 27 letters is because of the spectrum of numbers; 1-9 10-90 100-900. Except nobody uses the final form(the final five numbers that were added) in gematria, so that point is moot, and the entire argument collapses.
Besides that, greek people have a thing with being recognized as "Special". LOOK WE HAD PEOPLE LIKE PLATO AND SOCRATES, who we put to death for being too smart for us, because they learned from egypt not us.
The biggest question would be, what form of hebrew did they speak at the time of the writing of the torah? Anyway, im asking all this too some jewish scholar guy. The only problem is he's a stuck up arrogant prick like you, who doesn't really know all too much, just talks like he knows alot.

"Can you combine a few characters into a word that signifies a number?

Like "SIX" for example?"

No, A means one. There simply is no symbol for one except A.

[Pub Lover]

...he's a stuck up arrogant prick like you, who doesn't really know all too much, just talks like he knows alot...
That's all I've ever wanted to be. :(

[Sethomas]

I checked my Hebrew book, and the words for numbers ARE NOT THE SAME FUCKING THING AS THEIR SYMBOLS. For example, the word for "one" is NOT aleph, it's pronounced "enad", if I'm reading correctly. At any rate, it has three consonants and two vowels. So, YOU ARE WRONG.

[kahljorn]

You see, that's where you keep getting lost. We aren't talking about Words and numbers, we're talking about letters and numbers.

Also, you may be saying Achad.

[kahljorn]

:posh http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/4_chart.html

[Perndog]

Aren't you overdue for a barbiturate overdose?

[ziggytrix]

pardon me for asking, but WHO THE FUCK CARES?

[Sethomas]

Khal doesn't understand what I'm saying, so obviously I'm the one getting lost. Right. :blah

[kahljorn]

Actually I'm arguing with a group of Qabalists and seth at the same time, and none of them are smart enough to supply me with enough argument to denounce the other ;/
Stupid qabalists. One of them actually said to me, ITS A DIVINE BOOK AND THATS WHY ITS MATHEMATICAL, and now i hate them.

But yea ,anyway, ive been studying the qabalah lately and I'm trying to find out the validity of it, or as close to validity or disvalidity as i can. The closest i can find to validity is that ancient hebrew had the same gematric values for letters as before, like A is strong/leader and made with an ox. This is like modern hebrew.
The arguments I've seen against it are that it didn't appear until on a coin, in 2nd century bc. That's the biggest argument against it. Also that there are only 22 letters in hebrew until they started using square hebrew, which had final forms, that's there other big argument. But it's pointless, because you dont use final forms in gematria, or most people don't. I've never met anyone who does.

[kahljorn]

Seth, there's alot of different forms of numbers in hebrew. From what i understand, Achad and Aleph are one. the point is not to actually be able to ask for an apple(albeit that would be nice to know, apples are good), just what way they used to express numbers in ancient hebrew, and if A still had numerical form in that time. The reason this is important, is because that would give a leaning of credibility to it. So far the closest I've been able to find skips entirely over the matter of numbers and goes straight to the gematric equivalents. Which wouldn't do anything to unvalidate it.

[Sethomas]

I'm glad we have khal on the boards to discern who's smart around here.

[kahljorn]

I'm sorry, but coins from 200 bc being the first time that it was seen, besides on greek paprii for isopsephia back to close to 400 bc, doesnt do much to prove if they did it or not. I've read that argument like 75083567350 times, and it's just nothing. Especially since ancient hebrew and modern hebrew are way different. There's also nothing of when it began, or why.

The babylonians also widely used gematria by the 8th century , and wouldn't you know it? Hebrews used a form of assyro-babylonian sexagesimal, and before that the egyptian stuff. I'm going to have to study egypt now to find out what's up with their language, luckily i know someone who studies that culture religiously... I also believe the torah at some point passed through the hands of these particular cultures. Coincidence? Nope. Coincidence is for bitches.

[Sethomas]

What exactly are you trying to prove by going against academic consensus? Do you have some retarded agenda that only works if the Torah was written with gematria in mind? You sound really desparate to make it older than it really is.

[kahljorn]

Academic consensus? You obviously don't understand how history works, but that's ok. Just because the first time it was found in the hebrew language was 200 bc, doesn't mean that's the first time it was ever used. Besides, I'm pointing out a line that the torah followed, from civilization to civilization(because that's what happened) who all took up using GEMATRIA or some form of it, or even just had superior geometric skills.
For example, there were jewish people who could speak babylonian(and greek), and since the academic consensus is that the babylonians(and greeks by 500) were using gematria by 800 bc(which would mean that ALOT of them were using it before 800 bc), well. You connect the god damn dots. I already did.
And as i pointed out, ancient hebrew, the one they used in the times of the torah, had the equated gematric words already associated with them. The only thing I'm not sure of is if the NUMBERS were associated with them or not. Regardless, though, in certain formulae numbers arent necessary, just a refinement.
I'd also like to point out that civilizations take time to catch up to the "Times". When all of a sudden the entire jewish populace is using gematria, coins aren't magically coalesced out of thin air to match. In fact, entire civilizations don't take up on a trend in one day. Sometimes it takes a long time, espcially with the hebrews who were basically bitches of different civilizations throughout time. Bitches of civilizations who ended up using gematria. Horray.
One more thing, there's this thing called the CLERGY, you know. It's filled with priests, intellectual people. People who are taught well. People who are taught smartly. These people are smarter than the average populace, they withold information at times, or simply use other information before the general populace ever learns about it. I'm not saying the delay may be a few thousand years, BUT THEN AGAIN WHAT AM I SAYING. not like the qabalah was an oral tradition passed down only to the most intellectual/smart people coughcoughahackhack. I'm talking nonsense.

[Sethomas]

The Qabala didn't come about until the Dark Ages, so what does that have to do with anything? Are you just trying to impress someone by throwing out irrelevant terms? And why do you care how old Gematria is, insisting that it's older than what the authorities on the subject say? Good god you're stupid sometimes.

[kahljorn]

I guess the term, "Oral tradition" means nothing to you. How about, "Secret Cult", or.. "Underground group". There's alot of things people don't know of until a long looong time after. For example, even now adays, there's alot of rituals of the OTO and GD that aren't released until nearly a century later. Does that mean they werent created until then? no, it means they were kept secret.
And speaking of stupid, since you want to play low...
It's kinda like how people didn't know until recently how marvelously built the pyramids were, and how advanced they really were. Classified? Top secret? these words mean nothing, right?


Why did you agree with me if you didn't really agree with me? lol. classic.


What are your "Authorities" on the subject?

[kahljorn]

Lemme guess, you're talking about Raymond Lully, the alchemist who brought it to the attention of the CHRISTIAN WORLD(which is something you are obviously entirely too involved in).

Anyway, you obviously don't know anything other than the coin produced in 200 bc, so I'm going to move on to something else. You really should study harder though, gematria has been around a lot longer than the "Jews" have been officially using it. It makes me feel slanted that you really think everything happens exactly on these historical proofs dates. That's all they are, dates of the first manifestation of it. Every single historian will say that it must've been going on before then. Only an idiot would presume otherwise.

[Perndog]

You didn't answer my question. More toxic drugs, less smart guy pissing contest. >:

[kahljorn]

I don't even know which of us you are talking to ;9

[Sethomas]

Kahl, how many times do I have to tell you that if it's not Hebrew, it's NOT Gematria! With Greek or Roman characters, it's universally referred to as NUMEROLOGY. So, NO, you're WRONG, and RETARDED, because I've said that so many fucking times already.

[AChimp]

I find the whole premise of this thread about as worthwhile as farting in the bathtub.

[Sethomas]

Yeah, here it is in summary:

Seth, I remember you saying that Hebrew characters didn't have meaning until after the torah was written.
Seth, all the resources I've seen agree with you, but I still think you're wrong.
Seth, I'm so smart that I know the first letter is Aleph. I'm not smart enough however to realize that it's not the same as their word for "one".
Seth, you and the entire world are dumber than me because I realize that the Egyptians had extra-terrestrial intelligence and taught the Jews Gematria before the Torah was written even though Gematria is a strictly Jewish term, because, hey, why wouldn't they teach it to them?

:blah

[Jeanette X]

I could e-mail my Rabbi and get his opinion on all this, if you want. :/

[AChimp]

Just ask him to fart the next time he takes a bath.

[Perndog]

Why does extra-human intelligence need to imply extra-terrestrial intelligence? Just because the gods of the ancients came from the sky doesn't mean they came from outer space. :blah

And I was talking to you, kahl. You're much closer to the edge.

[Sethomas]

I was speaking in hyperbole, o wise one.

[Perndog]

I wasn't talking to you.

[kahljorn]

"I could e-mail my Rabbi and get his opinion on all this, if you want."

Thanks, the linguist i asked seemed confused. And then someone wanted me to take a shower with them. Just ask them if the Symbols for ancient hebrew had a Numerical Equivalent. Nevermind, it doesn't. Took forever to find what the actual ancient hebrews used for letters at the time of the creation of the bible.. now im finding the answer to another question.

Perndog, the dogon tribe (who also said the ancients came from the sky) were a very small tribe, with no telescopes. They had no tools to look at the planets, yet they have a very apt description of what the planets look like(ironically from the outside in). This description was sent to NASA before voyager or whatever the fuck it was called took it's trip to see the outer planets. Look them up, i cant explain right now, no time.

I'll get back to you seth.

[kahljorn]

Greek characters were considered Isopsephia, not Numerology. The premise is practically exactly the same, the numerical values were exactly the same, the fucking Symbol names are almost exactly the same, let's not argue over semantics.

It's actually ehad for masculine, ehat for feminine. I'm really glad we got that out of the way, I honestly needed to know how to ask for an apple to understand gematria. Shnaim is the masculine two, shloshah is the masculine three. Shtaim and shalosh are the femine two and three. Oh, right, that's for modern hebrew only, though. Tack tack.

Moving on to brighter, happier subjects. Here's my summary.

Gematria didn't appear in HEBREW until it was seen on a coin in what, 103 bc? You'll have to correct me for the exact times.

However, it appeared in Greek in the form of Isopsephia as coins in something like 266 bc(again correct me if im wrong ineffable one) and 311 bc as Papyrii. Now i think we should clear up the matter of the difference between isopsephia and gematria. Isopsephia is basically when alpha through omega of the alphabet is given a number, in three sets of ten. 1-9, 1-90, 1-900(or 8-8-8). Gematria is the hebrew form of isopsephia, which is when every letter in the alphabet is given a number, the numbers are arranged in three sets of ten, 1-9, 10-90, and 1-900(this was after a more modern variant of hebrew was created and included final consonants, which added an extra 5 to the original 22. 5+22=27, 3x9=27. What a coincidence). Something about these numbers seems very similar! oh well, I'll ignore it. i'm seth.

Iso in greek means equal, psephia means Pebble/count. Quarter please.

For my next act:
Let's look at a striiiking similarity, yet again.
here's the hebrew alphabet.
Aleph, beth, gimel, daleth, he, vau, zayin, cheth, teth, yod, kaph, lamed, mem, nun, samekh, ayin, pe, tzaddi, qoph, resh, shin, tau.
I'm sure you know the greek alphabet, but we'll do it anyway :) :
Alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon, zeta, eta, theta, iota, kappa, lamda, mu, nu, xi, pi, rho, rigma, tau, upsillon, phi, chi, psi, omega.

OMG SIMILARITIES? Let's try ancient hebrew:
Al, bet, gam, dal, hey, waw, zan, chets, thet, yad, kaph, lam, mem, nun, sin, ghan, pey, tsad, quph, rosh, shin, taw.

Wow. That's strikingly odd. Oh and roman numerology, that you are correct about. Congradulations, sethomas, you win. let's try something else, let's type, "Isopsephia" and "Greek Numerology" into a search browser and see what we get... wow, about 300 more responses for isopsephia, perhaps it's that extra word squeezed in there huh seth? Or maybe there's just a bunch of psychos out there like me practicing this horrid isopsephia thing. Or maybe you're just a fucking moron. But hey, I'm not here to judge seth. I just want to be a debater.

Can you maybe tell me why they are so damn similar? Has something to do with their similar caaninite/phoenician birthing.

Now, moving along. You will notice another very similar pattern in both Hebrew gematria, greek isopsephia, and even roman numerology. They were generally used in conjunction with God's and straaange sciences. I won't name them, because it is easily investigatable to find the numerical values for the gods of each of these systems, and note that often in temples built to them the isopsephia numeral would've been used to build the temple. Parthenon.
So call them bullshit, unimportant, crap that wasn't around, you're a dumbass no matter what you say.

Let's move on to some instances in which gematria was actually used in the bible, and some other fancy pancy philosophies:
The sum of all the Hebrew alephbet is 1495, the supposive number of days in the year given to them by moses under law. Quack.

Check out referances to it in sacred geometry as well. I know you are a self proclaimed master of Sacred geometry(like you are with everything else) so you should know what i mean.

Babylon used Gematria, hebrews were using a dialect of babylon for a long time. It was actually a cross between assyrian and babylonian(just like modern hebrew, ironically..), there's also an assyrian tree of life which seems ironic since that's one of primary stations of the qabalah, but that's unimportant because they are actually referring to a tree. Palm tree if i remember right, and pomegranate. Or is it relevant? I bet it is.
The flower of life was found in one of the pyramids or a temple of egypt, i forget which. This is again related to sacred geometry. Also the tree of life fits on top of the flower of life, along with every other sacred geometric shape.
The stories in the bible were also found in Sumeria, as far as the creation stories. All I'm saying is it has been passed down through a hell of a lot of cultures, a few of which had supro intellect, like egypt.

Right, back on topic, babylonians used gematria in about 800 bc, some stupid asshole also directed those of hebrew culture to use assyro-babylonian sexamatology in 800bc. I know i spelled that wrong.
What else... oh, right, ancient hebrew. It had symbols, sorry to disappoint you. Al was an ox. they were more like pictographs. This is in biblical times. That's right. You heard me right. It's right. They had symbols! That's how they wrote the bible. Congrats sir. I honestly don't know what else to mention. Oh, do you think they used the same symbol for numbers? Guess seth. please guess. because i don't know. they didnt from what ive read. that sucks, huh.
Oh, how about the fact that the hebrew culture was basically shimmied between many cultures, i could look it up and tell you, but im not sure i want to. It went through assyria and babylon, and quite obviously greece, and egypt as well. These cultures all managed to adopt some form of gematria, save egypt that i know of thus far, but im looking. We all know how smart egypt was, with it's indentations.
Also you have no evidence that it wasn't used at all before 103 bc, that's just the first piece of evidence in which they note it's existance used by HEBREWS, who, again, shimmied between cultures. Kind of like how they only find evidence of dinosaurs on certain dates, but they know they were around before and after that. Yea :(

Anyway, we are basically looking at a time period of about 500 years between the writing of the torah and the first evidence of gematria, althugh it was likely used by other cultures of mesopatomia, and used by Babylon itself for a long time.
There's still too much of a possibility the hebrews could've learned about it from babylon(or taught it to them), or some other culture since they were all so tightly linked, and it doesnt very well explain the huge coincidences of the hebrew language. I mean the first verse alone has a huge gigantic gematria behind it. Most of it's dumb though.
Babylon's language is part of the same form of writing as Sumeria, which as I mentioned has a neat story called "Genesis".

Just to let you know, i dont care either way(like i said I'm also arguing with a bunch of qabalists), i just have this thing with debating. You're not very good at it :( you can't look much further than your nose, and a book. Good luck being a philosopher! Notice how the greek philosophers debated, it didn't involve much hubris. Alot of it was speculation. "Concrete evidence" is often not absolute, and never concrete.
I never really thought the qabalah had absolutely any relevance to the torah, in fact i was never even interested in the qabalah, I'm just into consciousness manipulation(tree of life will be fun to experiment with that through). I have this thing where i adopt other belief systems and pretend like ive been following them forever. Guess what that's called.
Anyone who looks up the history of gematria wil find the coin of 103, knowing that doesn't make you smart :(

This has all managed to fit fabulously into my actual theories. Now i'll be reading my book on the Qabalah about sacred science. Qua!

As for the whole word thing for numbers, you were right. But then, I've been studying the hebrew language for like... 10 hours now? And i had abunch of stupid qabalahists informing me, without knowing the actual word. i didn't think they'd ask for aleph apple, i actually figured it'd be.. "A apple" "b apple" "c apple", either that or it would have a word, but they did a good job convincing me otherwise. Still not sure what the ancient hebrew words are.
You were still wrong about isopsephia :D

I guess I'll end it on this note, you think you can prove the existance of God.
But you somehow don't believe God can set events into motion.


*edit* My best response from qabalahsts so far is that some supro praeter intelligence setup the torah so that gematria will work on it through any language. That they somehow discovered the similarity between numbers and words(they did actually originally put them on a three dimensional grid to find out where they fit).
But you can make anything with gematria if you try hard enough. I guess it's the inherent creativity in the translation and abusing of gematria that would give you answers, like subconscious automatic writing.

[Sethomas]

I bet that post was really interesting.

[ziggytrix]

I find the whole premise of this thread about as worthwhile as farting in the bathtub.

bathtub farts are amusing sitcom/cartoon material.

the same cannot be said for this thread. :?

[kahljorn]

you know you read it, seth, you're just too embarassed about your mistakes about isopsephia.