Lord of the Rings: QUESTIONS FOR NERDS

[James]

Oh, and movie spoilers, obviously.

-Gandalf was grey/white, and Saruman was white/many-colored. I read that two other wizards were blue. What was the color of the last wizard, and what did the colors mean?

-Gandalf was given a ring by one of the elves. Why? I was under the impression that save for The One Ring, the rings given out by Sauron were to be held by those who original bore them. And if not, why weren't the other rings passed to others/disposed of?

-Why did the ringbearers leave for the Undying Lands? Was it to prevent Sauron's influence from remaining in Middle-Earth, or was it an act of compassion for the anguish they've lived with? Wouldn't bringing Sauron's influence into the Undying Lands be a problem?

-The head orc in RotK was pink and deformed. From my understanding, he was only mentioned once in the books, and never even specified as being an orc. Is there any reference in the books that would hint at where the design or potential backstory could be in the character? An orc/human hybrid or something?

-What would have happened if someone poked Sauron in the eye? :lol

-What WAS the Mouth of Sauron?

-What became of the Horadrim, fleeing orcs, etc after Sauron's destruction?

-What IS the "Scouring of the Shire?" I understand it's the mechanization of the land or something, but what is the story behind it and how does it happen?

[AChimp]

I'll answer the ones that I know the answer to off-hand.


-Gandalf was grey/white, and Saruman was white/many-colored. I read that two other wizards were blue. What was the color of the last wizard, and what did the colors mean?
The colours corresponded to the rank within the order. Not many of the other wizards are mentioned in the books. Gandalf refers to Radagast the Brown in The Hobbit, if I remember correctly. White is the highest rank, which is why Saruman was the "head of the order," gray is second in command, etc.

Why did the ringbearers leave for the Undying Lands? Was it to prevent Sauron's influence from remaining in Middle-Earth, or was it an act of compassion for the anguish they've lived with? Wouldn't bringing Sauron's influence into the Undying Lands be a problem?
It had something to do with being in contact with magic, I think (not really sure). Sauron was completely destroyed at the end of RotK.

The head orc in RotK was pink and deformed. From my understanding, he was only mentioned once in the books, and never even specified as being an orc. Is there any reference in the books that would hint at where the design or potential backstory could be in the character? An orc/human hybrid or something?
Hmm... I don't think that this is really an important point. I believe they just made him look different so that he would stand out and everyone could point to him and say, "he's the leader."

What would have happened if someone poked Sauron in the eye? :lol
The person who did the poking would die.

What IS the "Scouring of the Shire?" I understand it's the mechanization of the land or something, but what is the story behind it and how does it happen?
It has to do with Wormtongue's revenge. He basically gets a a huge mob of evil men to raid and pillage the Shire. The hobbits are a bunch of pussies and don't fight back until Sam gets back and shit. He convinces the hobbits to fight and they beat the men, bringing about a new era of hobbit bad-assness.

[FS]

To add to Chimp's comments:

-Why did the ringbearers leave for the Undying Lands? Was it to prevent Sauron's influence from remaining in Middle-Earth, or was it an act of compassion for the anguish they've lived with? Wouldn't bringing Sauron's influence into the Undying Lands be a problem?

If I remember right it wasn't so much the ringbearers needing to leave, as it was the elves, who left because of the changes to the world. The age of men was beginning, so the elves 'stepped down' and left, plus with the destruction of the One Ring I think the power of the other rings was starting to diminish and could no longer protect or sustain the elves. By leaving for the Undying lands, they could live on in their usual manner.

As for the rings, the One Ring was the only one forged by Sauron himself, the others by elven smiths. Their power wasn't evil, and it was diminishing anyway - if I'm right.

The head orc in RotK was pink and deformed. From my understanding, he was only mentioned once in the books, and never even specified as being an orc. Is there any reference in the books that would hint at where the design or potential backstory could be in the character? An orc/human hybrid or something?

In the movie credits he's listed as Gothmog, which is the name of a plain orc in the books which, I think, Frodo and Sam come across in Mordor. So he's basically a name lifted from the book, given a distinctive look and put forward to give the orcs a figurehead, other than the Witch King. I'll see if I can find him in the book.

What WAS the Mouth of Sauron?

One of two things come to mind - either it's a gate in Mordor of importance, or it's the herald of Sauron that appears at the gates of Mordor when the last of the human army comes to the gates at the end of RotK, to speak for Sauron. He wasn't used in the movie anyway, to my regret. I'll look in the book again.

What became of the Horadrim, fleeing orcs, etc after Sauron's destruction?

I think the book says they scatter to the far corners of the world. The Horadrim might actually have been granted mercy and their own territory by Aragorn.

What IS the "Scouring of the Shire?" I understand it's the mechanization of the land or something, but what is the story behind it and how does it happen?

During their journey back to the Shire, the hobbits (travelling with several of their old companions, among which Aragorn) meet Saruman again, who's escaped his tower together with Wormtongue. The hobbits let him go. He makes it to the Shire faster than them, and rallies a bunch of hobbits under him to turn it into a little industrial dictatorship. Builds a few big smokestacks, has a few evil humans boss the hobbits around. When the hobbits get home (only the four of them, the rest of their companions have since turned around), they quickly assess the situation, gather some loyal hobbits, and mount an attack against the evil humans and hobbits. Then they find out Saruman was behind everything.

Frodo grants Saruman mercy again, which is rather gay, then Saruman tries to kill him, but his knife breaks on Frodo's mithril. Saruman is allowed to leave alive another time, but Wormtongue kills him. Then Wormtongue gets shot with arrows by the hobbits, and the Shire is cleaned up again.

[James]

One of two things come to mind - either it's a gate in Mordor of importance, or it's the herald of Sauron that appears at the gates of Mordor when the last of the human army comes to the gates at the end of RotK, to speak for Sauron. He wasn't used in the movie anyway, to my regret. I'll look in the book again.

It's the latter one. I just didn't know what he was, as far as appearance/race/whatever. I should have specified, I guess. And he was used in the movie; You'll see him in the extended version.

[Carnivore]

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

[FS]

Oh, that's good news. Well, here's the description of the Mouth of Sauron from the book:

"At its head there rode a tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse, if horse it was; for it was huge and hideous, and its face was a frightful mask, more like a skull than a living head, and in the sockets of its eyes and in its nostrils there burned a flame. The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said 'I am the Mouth of Sauron.'
But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenoreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc."

So, he's human, or started out as one.

[executioneer]

the ringbearers were allowed to travel to the undying lands as reward for not falling to the corruption of the Ring :(

[ArrowX]

The scorching of the shire should have been added into the movie.

[executioneer]

what are you trying to say

[Perndog]

Galadriel and Elrond had two of the Elf rings. Who had the third one? The guy at the dock in the West? Or was that the one that Gandalf wore?

[ArrowX]

who cares its a book the answer never existed >:

[dead_pigeon]

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/
I found something about the pink orc dude in there, but that was many a month ago.
The Encyclopedia of Arda is a rather comprehensive collection of all the specifics. It has a few articles that link the movies and the books, pointing out plot differences, etc.

[James]

It seems like the two most likely speculations for Gothmog's race are human and orc. So I'm thinking that the cause for his appearance in the movie was intented to be a cross between these two. He's pink and deformed, so I almost think the idea for the movie appearance might have been that he was a man distorted into a monster.

Many thanks for this link. I'd found an encyclopedia online back when Fellowship came out, but I'd closed it when it spoiled that Gandalf returns, and could never find it again. This site blows that one out of the water.

[Zomboid]

Look up Goblin-Men on that site. He could easily be one of those things.

Edit: Also, look up half-orcs.

[James]

Yeah, I read that after my post.

It would make sense to have him be one of those, seeing how they were excluded from the movies, and that could have been a nod to their existence.

I guess we'll only really know when the Extended Version comes out.

[Zomboid]

I'm too lazy to read if this has been mentioned, but that site says Gothmog is not only a balrog, but lord of the balrogs and his whole history predates the LOTR story itself. I rarely get into this kinda thing, but reading up on all that stuff brought out the nerd in me.

Can't wait for the extended edition. Anyone know if there's gonna be a huge box set with all the extended editions? I've been waiting for that :(

[James]

I'm sure there will be, but I'm almost positive it won't come with the extras that the individual sets did. Meaning, the statues and the extra DVDs.

[ArrowX]

Who were the men with the Elephants? my friend keeps referring to them as Easterlings but I can't seem to find them in the Encyclopedia.

[James]

Unless I'm mistaken, those were the Horadrim.

[executioneer]

the elephant guys were the haradrim (or the southrons) the easterlings were not featured in the movies but attacked helm's deep and minas tirith i think? along w/ the orcs

[James]

They were featured in The Two Towers, but weren't at the battle Helm's Deep. But they were part of the armies that amassed at Isengard before the battle.

[executioneer]

i'm 99% sure they were in the battle at helms deep in the book :(

[James]

I was talking about the movie. They were shown in the armies at Isengard, but were essentially not at the battle of Helm's Deep.

[executioneer]

i know what is up w/ that all that setup and for what >:

[rook]

the mouth of sauron, also described as the lieutenant of barad dur, was a member of the black numenorean race. they were originally the "king's men" as opposed to members of the rebellion of elendil the elf-friend who fought against the increasingly evil kings of numenor who, out of pride and being deceived by sauron, tried to visit the undying lands which, not being for mortals, ended up having numenor demolished by the gods.

the remnant of the king's men settled in the south of middle earth, and i think became the haradrim (either the unfinished tales or the silmarrilion refer to 2 of such leaders as herumor and fuinur (sp?) who, i vaguely recall, fought against hte last such alliance of men and elves in elendil's time). 3 of hte nazgul are also black numenoreans. i think of all the races written of by tolkien, the black numenoreans are the most interesting. basically evil aragorns, proud killers obsessed with death and immortality, who sacrificed the king's men and delighted in destruction, warfare, piracy, and everything fun and awesome in the world.

in one of tolkien's later books, he gave a vague discussion of the origins of the mouth of sauron as a youth from a prominent gondorian family who was abducted and rose through the ranks of the mordor army because of his cunning. but this was scrapped in the return of the king. one thing that always intrigued me was how he was a sorceror when there were only 5 wizards. i guess sorcery as defined by tolkien is a separate entity than magic, as the witch king was also a sorceror, but i find the line to be very narrow and not well-defined by tolkien. also what's interesting is that he, a man, was one of the highest ranking people in mordor, as opposed to nazgul and other creatures.

one silly question:
with isengard and baraddur being depicted as immensely tall fortress towers of doom, you think they had elevators or did everyone have to take the stairs?

[FS]

In Tolkien's books, wizards were not really the same thing as sorcerers. In fact, wizards weren't even human. I forget where and exactly how it's said, but they came to Middle-earth at some important point in time to help protect the world against Sauron, carrying the form of men. I guess, technically, wizards qualify as a separate race of entities.

[pjalne]

They're called Mayar, I think. But I don't know exactly what the definition of a Mayar is, considering the Balrog is one also.

[Ihach]

The gothmog zomboid refers to was the lord of balrogs, but he was also killed in the fall of gondolin, so the gothmog leading the army cant be him. balrogs were originally maia, helpful spirits, more powerful than men or elves, less powerful than the gods themselves. the balrogs are corrupted maia, as is sauron himself, who originally served Melkor, the first dark lord. another double name that appears is the name of the elf who killed gothmog originally, he was named Glorfindel. He died at the fall of gondolin in the fight with gothmog. In the lord of the rings a glorfindel helps frodo and company reach rivendell.

there, thats the extent of my knowledge :(

p.s. a quick edit: wizards were maia i believe, though i havent read enough on it to be sure...

[Father §p@z]

The scorching of the shire should have been added into the movie.
It's the Scouring of the Shire, smart one :dunce

[Carnivore]

Please note, I posted the link to the Encyclopedia of Arda first, fucksticks!

[ArrowX]

I havent read the RoTK in like 2 years so I don't remember.

[Zomboid]

p.s. a quick edit: wizards were maia i believe, though i havent read enough on it to be sure...

Yep. I read about that the other day. Gandalf and Saruman and the rest of em are all maia or whatever.