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Ronnie Raygun
Sep 13th, 2004, 10:17 AM
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationalpolitics/2002032742_bushguard11.html

More challenges about whether Bush documents are authentic

By Pete Slover
The Dallas Morning News

George W. Bush sits in an F-102 fighter jet while he was serving in the Texas Air National Guard. The date of this file photo is unknown.

AUSTIN, Texas — The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure to "sugarcoat" George W. Bush's military record left the Texas Air National Guard a year and a half before the memo supposedly was written, his service record shows.
An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged March 1, 1972. CBS News reported this week that a memo in which Staudt was described as interfering with officers' negative evaluations of the future president's service was dated Aug. 18, 1973.

That added to mounting questions about the authenticity of documents that seem to suggest Bush sought special treatment as a pilot, failed to carry out a superior's order to undergo a physical exam and was suspended from flying for failing to meet Air National Guard standards.

Staudt, who lives in New Braunfels, Texas, did not return calls seeking comment. His discharge paper was among documents obtained by The Morning News from official sources during 1999 research into Bush's Guard record.

A CBS staffer stood by the story, suggesting Staudt could have continued to exert influence over Guard officials. But a former high-ranking Guard official disputed that, saying retirement would have left Staudt powerless.

Authenticity of the memo and three others included in Wednesday's "60 Minutes" report came in for heavy criticism yesterday, prompting an unusual, on-air defense of the original work. Experts on typography said the memos appeared to have been computer-drafted on equipment not available at the time.

And the widow and son of the officer who supposedly wrote them, Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984, have said it wasn't his nature to keep detailed personal notes.

In its news broadcast yesterday, CBS said the documents were supported by both unnamed witnesses and others, including document examiners.

CBS anchor Dan Rather earlier told The Dallas Morning News that he had heard nothing to make him question the legitimacy of the memos. He attributed the backlash to partisan politics and competitive journalism.

"This story is true. The questions we raised about then-Lieutenant Bush's National Guard service are serious and legitimate," he said. "Until and unless someone shows me definitive proof that they are not, I don't see any reason to carry on a conversation with the professional rumor mill."

The Washington Post quoted Rather as saying CBS had talked to two people who worked with Killian — his superior, retired Maj. Gen. Bobby Hodges, and his administrative assistant Robert Strong — and both described the memos as consistent with what they knew of Killian. Hodges, who told CBS he was "familiar" with the documents, is an avid Bush supporter and "it took a lot for him to speak the truth," the Post quoted Rather as saying.

The Los Angeles Times, however, later quoted Hodges as saying that he believed the memos from Killian were not real. A CBS news executive confirmed that Hodges had changed his story.

Rather's interview with The Morning News concluded before the newspaper determined the date of Staudt's departure, but a CBS staffer with extensive knowledge of the story said later that the departure doesn't derail the story. "From what we've learned, Staudt remained very active after he retired," the staffer said, speaking on condition of anonymity. "He was a very bullying type, and that could have continued."

In the "60 Minutes" report, Rather said of the memo's contents: "Killian says Col. Buck Staudt, the man in charge of the Texas Air National Guard, is putting on pressure to 'sugarcoat' an evaluation of Lt. Bush."

Staudt was the person Bush initially contacted about Guard service, and he was the group commander at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston when Bush arrived there to fly an F-102 jet. He transferred later to Austin, where he served as chief of staff for the Air National Guard.

In the disputed memo, Killian supposedly wrote "(another officer) gave me a message today from group regarding Bush's (evaluation) and Staudt is pushing to sugarcoat it."

It continues: "Austin is not happy either."

The CBS staffer said the memo appears to recognize that Staudt has retired, since it differentiates between his displeasure and that of Austin, where he served his final Guard stint.

But another Texas Air National Guard official who served in that period said the memo appears to wrongly associate Staudt with his group command in Houston, and — based on that mistake — the memo distinguishes his views from that of the Austin Guard.

Retired Col. Earl Lively, director of Air National Guard operations for the state headquarters during 1972 and 1973, said Staudt "wasn't on the scene" after retirement, and that CBS' remote-bullying thesis makes no sense.

"He couldn't bully them. He wasn't in the Guard," Lively said. "He couldn't affect their promotions. Once you're gone from the Guard, you don't have any authority."

Bush has not commented publicly about the CBS report, and aides say his honorable discharge proves he fulfilled his obligations.

KevinTheOmnivore
Sep 13th, 2004, 10:31 AM
This was news a week ago. it has NOW become more likely that the documents were in fact legit, since certain models of type writers, particularly the executive models, some did in fact have the characters in the memo.

point is, this isn't a "scandal" yet, and it's most certainly still news.

mburbank
Sep 13th, 2004, 12:15 PM
Jury's still out on this folks. My MOM had that typewriter.

Ronnie Raygun
Sep 13th, 2004, 02:01 PM
"This was news a week ago. it has NOW become more likely that the documents were in fact legit, since certain models of type writers, particularly the executive models, some did in fact have the characters in the memo." - Kevin

You are right....I saw on the news that the type writer had just been put on the market and that there was no chance the Alabama Air National Guard would have had one at the time these documents were supposedly released.

Kerry is wasting time with this issue and destroying even more of his own credibility.

mburbank
Sep 13th, 2004, 06:14 PM
Wow. You're right. This whole fracous might switch back those three swing votes that had gone against Kerry because of the Swift Boat adds, then swuung back to Kerry over the document release and now are back with Bush becuase the documents may be forgeries.

EvilConserative#1
Sep 13th, 2004, 06:19 PM
They were hand written and then typed up to make them LOOK real . Sad Kerry can only sling mud , but if that is all you have what do you expect .

kellychaos
Sep 13th, 2004, 06:25 PM
You're kinda evil, ya know.

ScruU2wice
Sep 13th, 2004, 10:21 PM
The question in these "scandals" are wether John Kerry deserved the 3 medals he got and wether Bush even finished his required service. This is just my opinion, but I think the second one is far worse.

Baalzamon
Sep 13th, 2004, 11:27 PM
I agree.

Even if kerry's service has a few issues that are unclear, at least he had the balls to go.

Bush not only didnt go, but it seems very likely he had strings pulled to save his ass and get him out of it.

But it doesnt really matter because both sides seem to have such firmly entrenched voter bases right now It will simply come down to who runs the best smear campaign, and my moneys on bush.

Kerry is still stuck in the ideological fantasy that negative campaigning doesnt work, while bush and the GOP are pros at it.

If its not this they will simply be another way to show how much of a communist liberal pussy kerry is, just in time for november

Jeanette X
Sep 13th, 2004, 11:53 PM
I don't know about the superscript ability, but I do know that the Times New Roman font has been around since the 1930's.
Aw fuck, this is bad for Kerry. They're going to make it look like he was behind this, even if he had absolutely nothing to do with it. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck.

Fuck.

davinxtk
Sep 14th, 2004, 03:37 AM
Yeah, Ronnie, like responsible citizens the people who reported this to I-Mockery.com also RESCINDED IT WITHIN 24 HOURS.
We didn't need you to go BNFL on us.


"This story is true. The questions we raised about then-Lieutenant Bush's National Guard service are serious and legitimate," he said. "Until and unless someone shows me definitive proof that they are not, I don't see any reason to carry on a conversation with the professional rumor mill."

The Washington Post quoted Rather as saying CBS had talked to two people who worked with Killian — his superior, retired Maj. Gen. Bobby Hodges, and his administrative assistant Robert Strong — and both described the memos as consistent with what they knew of Killian. Hodges, who told CBS he was "familiar" with the documents, is an avid Bush supporter and "it took a lot for him to speak the truth," the Post quoted Rather as saying.

The Los Angeles Times, however, later quoted Hodges as saying that he believed the memos from Killian were not real. A CBS news executive confirmed that Hodges had changed his story.

Now who are you going to believe, Dan Rather or a flip-flopping Hodges?

Ronnie Raygun
Sep 14th, 2004, 08:00 AM
Hodges.

AChimp
Sep 14th, 2004, 08:44 AM
You dirty flip-flopper believer. >:

I have integrity. I'm sticking with believing the that documents were given to us by the aliens that kidnapped Elvis.

Ronnie Raygun
Sep 14th, 2004, 10:51 AM
You would.

mburbank
Sep 14th, 2004, 06:05 PM
Nalds, what will you do if Kerry wins?

Ant10708
Sep 14th, 2004, 07:27 PM
The same thing democrats did when Bush won: Bitch and moan for the next four years and blame it on miscounting votes.

Jeanette X
Sep 14th, 2004, 09:42 PM
I try to comfort myself with the fact that if Bush wins, I can at least continue to make fun of him. It's pointless to make fun of someone who is out of office.

Small conselation, but at least it's something. :(

Ronnie Raygun
Sep 15th, 2004, 07:08 AM
You'll still be able to make fun of Kerry, Jeanette...

Cosmo Electrolux
Sep 15th, 2004, 07:12 AM
Nalds, what will you do if Kerry wins?

eat both of his own buttocks??? maybe??

mburbank
Sep 15th, 2004, 10:25 AM
I think Chojin's right, there's no need for so many threads on the same topic, unless you like seeing your user name or lack the attention span to have an ongoing conversation. I'll post here and ignore the others.

Nalds, using Drudge as a source is worse than using Newsmax which is worse than using Kitty Friggin' Kelly. You've heard of newsppers and the AP wire, right?

And what am I supposed to make of what you think of this evidence? We have a secretary saying the documents are forged but the inormation is true. Maybe, but are you going to say he's telling the truth he didn't write them, but lieing that the information is true?

And what will you do if Kerry wins? I'll be upset if Bush wins, sure, but UI admit the possability. You're like one of those guys predicting the rapture on a specific date. What do you do when the world doesn't end?

Ronnie Raygun
Sep 15th, 2004, 11:20 AM
This is nothing like attempting to predict the rapture...It's just obvious to me that Bush has the upper hand in this upcoming election.

Anonymous
Sep 15th, 2004, 11:21 AM
If it's that obvious, why do you feel the need to prove it to yourself?

Ronnie Raygun
Sep 15th, 2004, 11:24 AM
Because most of you hate the idea of it..

Anonymous
Sep 15th, 2004, 11:24 AM
If it's that obvious, why do you feel the need to prove it to yourself?

Ronnie Raygun
Sep 15th, 2004, 11:28 AM
I don't know what you're talking about...

Zhukov
Sep 15th, 2004, 12:18 PM
Just sit back and don't worry about proving that bush will get elected, you know he will.

I don't go around posting Das Kapital.

mburbank
Sep 15th, 2004, 02:58 PM
So what will you do if Kerry wins? I mean, I know not having a Plan B is the Republican strategy of choice, but if you don't even consider the possability and it happens... what will you do, Gizzy?

mburbank
Sep 20th, 2004, 02:55 PM
Will this be the thread naldo posts todays (9/20) confirmation that the CBS documents are fake?