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Jeanette X
Nov 4th, 2004, 06:55 PM
Source: http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/11/02/brain.dish/index.html

'Brain' in a dish flies flight simulator
Thursday, November 4, 2004 Posted: 1:56 PM EST (1856 GMT)



DeMarse's "brain in a dish" contains 25,000 living neurons.


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(CNN) -- A Florida scientist has developed a "brain" in a glass dish that is capable of flying a virtual fighter plane and could enhance medical understanding of neural disorders such as epilepsy.

The "living computer" was grown from 25,000 neurons extracted from a rat's brain and arranged over a grid of 60 electrodes in a Petri dish.

The brain cells then started to reconnect themselves, forming microscopic interconnections, said Thomas DeMarse, professor of biomedical engineering at the University of Florida.

"It's essentially a dish with 60 electrodes arranged in a dish at the bottom," explained DeMarse, who designed the study.

"Over that we put the living cortical neurons from rats, which rapidly begin to reconnect themselves, forming a living neural network -- a brain."

Although such living networks could one day be used to fly unmanned aircraft, DeMarse said the study was of more immediate relevance as an experimental aid to understanding how the human brain performs and learns computational tasks at a cellular level.

"We're interested in studying how brains compute," said DeMarse.

"If you think about your brain, and learning and the memory process, I can ask you questions about when you were five-years-old and you can retrieve information. That's a tremendous capacity for memory. In fact, you perform fairly simple tasks that you would think a computer would easily be able to accomplish, but in fact it can't."

Although computers can perform certain tasks extremely quickly, they lack the flexibility and adaptability of the human brain and perform particularly poorly at pattern recognition tasks.

"If we extract the rules of how these neural networks are doing computations like pattern recognition we can apply that to create novel computing systems," said DeMarse.

"There's a lot of data out there that will tell you that the computation that's going on here isn't based on just one neuron. The computational property is actually an emergent property of hundreds of thousands of neurons cooperating to produce the amazing processing power of the brain."

As well as enhancing scientific knowledge of how the brain works, the neurons may provide clues to brain dysfunction. For example, an epileptic seizure is triggered when all the neurons in the brain fire simultaneously -- a pattern commonly replicated by a neural network in a dish.

When linked up to an F-22 jet flight simulator, the brain and the simulator established a two-way connection similar to how neurons receive and interpret signals from each other to control our bodies.

Gradually the brain learnt to control the flight of the plane based on the information it received about flight conditions.

However, the brain still falls a long way short of the complexity of the human brain, which has billions of neurons, and Steven Potter, a biomedical engineer at the Georgia Institute of Technology, said a brain in a dish flying a real plane was still a long way off.

"A lot of people have been interested in what changes in the brains of animals and people when they are learning things," said Potter, DeMarse's former supervisor.

"We're interested in getting down into the network and cellular mechanisms, which is hard to do in living animals. And the engineering goal would be to get ideas from this system about how brains compute and process information."

:shocked

FartinMowler
Nov 4th, 2004, 07:05 PM
Well you know it's not my brain :/

Anonymous
Nov 5th, 2004, 12:05 AM
Lousy mi go.

the_dudefather
Nov 5th, 2004, 04:40 AM
how long before we can blame all our problems on disembodied brains....

damn plane is delayed, must be that stupid brain-in-a-jar flying it

mburbank
Nov 5th, 2004, 09:28 AM
This bares looking into, but I think I smell a hoax. There's not the faintest wiff in any of this about what the living rat cells are doing with the electronics, how they are doing it, or what reason or mechanism is allowing communication between orgnic and inorganic components.

Maybe that's because they're sitting on some big fat copywrites and corporate secrets, but I'd want to see this reseacrh replicated and a good paper written on it and submitted for peer review before I'd take it with anything beyond a grin of rat brain.

Baalzamon
Nov 5th, 2004, 12:13 PM
In order to have this work, the electronics would either need to be able to detect the chemical signals given off by the ends each one of the axons of these nerve cells, or be able to detect the faint electrical potential, once again, for each individual neuron, all at the same time.

that doesnt even go into the fact that these cells would need to be constantly fed glucose and a variety of vitamins and minerals, the neurons would need a large complement of glial cells to maintain them and produce neurotransmitters, and all of this would have to take place in a sealed buffer container.

If they managed to do this, good on them, but untill they give some details I'm skeptical.

AChimp
Nov 5th, 2004, 12:34 PM
Monitoring the pulses from individual neurons would be an impossible feat, so they are only monitoring general electrical activity in 60 spots. That gives you 60! combinations (if I remember my math correctly) for input and output.

They've been talking about doing stuff like this for a long time in AI. Current computers can only compute things sequentially while our brains do millions of things in parallel. This is why it is currently impossible to have a modern computer solve an NP hard problem; it would take centuries to arrive at a solution.

This "brain" isn't thinking, in the traditional sense of the word, but it is able to do a lot more things than a computer can. The only drawback is that you would have to teach each brain as opposed to a computer program that could be saved and moved around to different machines.

Jeanette X
Nov 5th, 2004, 01:05 PM
We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

-Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
Activity Recorded M.Y. 2302.22467
TERMINATION OF SPECIMEN ADVISED

DamnthatDavid
Nov 5th, 2004, 07:41 PM
The Matrix has you.

Pfft, I'm all for Rat Brain Computers.

Soon we will have Robots that are endlessly seeking out cheese.

FS
Nov 6th, 2004, 05:00 AM
http://images.ireland.com/newspaper/features/0500/battlefield_earth2.jpg

RAT BRAIN

MEATMAN
Nov 7th, 2004, 07:43 PM
Ugh! That had to be the worst movie I've ever seen.

I condemn you for posting that reminder of a migrane!

Your sentence: CLEAN MY TOILET! WITH YOUR HEAD!

You should know better than that!

Helm
Nov 7th, 2004, 07:48 PM
Weren't you supposed to be banned?

McMock
Nov 8th, 2004, 01:46 AM
What Achimp said is interesting and frightening. Yeah, they can't transfer programs from one brain to another, but maybe they can sustain one indefinately.

What a torment that would be: to be an immortal brain, doing math forever.

I read about this on slashdot a couple of weeks ago and it linked to some sites that were very professional and wouldn't post hoaxes. This is real. And it kicks ass.

Next stop: TERMINATOR!

davinxtk
Nov 8th, 2004, 05:06 AM
Although there's no (apparent) solution (to those of us who aren't doing the research) for programming a brain, there is a possiblity that brains could train eachother. Or maybe a way to train a whole brain and then break it into several autonomous units.


Either way I really want to be looking over their shoulders.

Jixby Phillips
Nov 8th, 2004, 06:36 AM
i'm with meatman, that movie that every person on the planet says sucks (whether they've seen it or not), sucks

FS
Nov 8th, 2004, 07:44 AM
don't be so tight-assed jixby

AChimp
Nov 8th, 2004, 09:05 AM
What are you all so paranoid about?

These are not brains that think.

They are only being called "brains" for lack of a better term and the fact that the media has to dumb things down for laymen. The petridish rat neural cells are not going to take over the world. The cells are being used as a better version of what we've been able to simulate already inside a computer with neural nets. The only thing that's changed now is that the cells are performing the calculations rather than our slow, sequential computers simulating them.

Spectre X
Nov 8th, 2004, 10:35 AM
The petridish rat neural cells are not going to take over the world.


Awwww. :(

I, for one, would have WELCOMED our new robotic rat overlords.

Preechr
Nov 8th, 2004, 10:19 PM
I think Jesus would find this to be immoral. Hopefully, someday soon we'll have enough judges on the Supreme Court to stop Satanic rituals like this (and abortion.) (and people having stem cells.) (and permanently remove any prospects for banning of guns and gun related products of any sort.)

McMock
Nov 8th, 2004, 10:30 PM
Well I don't know anything about it, but I'd say it's probably not all that different from our brains at all.

Think about it. A child learns not to put it's hand on a hot stove by burning it, and being in pain. The rat brain learns not to crash it's ratplane by being given a shock. Same thing, but on a small scale, no?

Maybe the lesson to learn from this is not that the ratbrain is not alive, but that we are far less alive than we think we are.

Jeanette X
Nov 9th, 2004, 12:46 AM
I think Jesus would find this to be immoral. Hopefully, someday soon we'll have enough judges on the Supreme Court to stop Satanic rituals like this (and abortion.) (and people having stem cells.) (and permanently remove any prospects for banning of guns and gun related products of any sort.)

You're being sarcastic, right? I just want to make sure. :/

Helm
Nov 9th, 2004, 12:52 AM
That was a joke right? I just want to make sure. Haha.

Preechr
Nov 9th, 2004, 04:00 AM
I think Jesus would find this to be immoral. Hopefully, someday soon we'll have enough judges on the Supreme Court to stop Satanic rituals like this (and abortion.) (and people having stem cells.) (and permanently remove any prospects for banning of guns and gun related products of any sort.)

You're being sarcastic, right? I just want to make sure. :/

Hell no. I'm a rabid, jingoistic ultra-tight righty-boy.

Oh, and I forgot gays. It was Ok as long as it was just women, but now that guys are humping each other, we gotta put a stop to it!

You shall all bow down to my proposed activist judgery and weep!! Weep like the heathens Jesus himself only tolerated to prove a larger tactical point to us God-fearing folk: Pretending to be friendly can get you in closer so the rocks hurt more!

I've always said homosexuality would one day lead to some sort of monkey brain Hell-spawn flying me to Detroit so I can pick up Canadian Viagra, and lo and behold if it ain't already in the works!

Thank God for President Bush. He'll put a stop to these mad, unChristian activities with a quickness... John Kerry would have let this go on until those mad-scientists learned how to hook all our brains up to their computers, and I saw a movie once about that and human beings were pretty much screwed after that happened.

President bush is a God-fearing Christian that will recognize this for what it really is: the first step toward the Mark of the Beast. We just can't allow it.