Is God dead?

[Immortal Goat]

I never thought myself to be a very Godfearing man. I don't follow any real religion to speak of, just my own morals and some hope in an afterlife, but this election has made me see the true ugliness that the American People as a whole posess.

This war was won through bigotry, and nothing else. Religious zealots who believe that war is ok so long as gay people cannot marry. People who say that abortion is wrong, but killing innocent children in Iraq is ok, because they are Heathens. Bigots who believe that marriage needs protected from "godless sinful deviants" while that very institution is being corroded from the inside by people like Britney Spears, J-Lo, and every station that has aired a "Bachelor" style show.

The thing that gets me is that all this hatred and violence is being done by people who believe they are doing God's work. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Jesus tell you guys to "Love one another", and "Let he who is among you who is without sin cast the first stone"? I guess stones are different than bombs, huh?

Yes, I know that this is not the first time in history when bigotry has caused massive global problems, but I would have thought that in 2004, we could all get over our differences and work together. Call me crazy, but I really don't think that it is a bad idea to have blacks, whites, straights, gays, and any other minority working together. That is the only way we will ever achieve our goals.

God may not be dead, but it IS in a coma. Wake up god, if you are there, we need you now more than ever. So much is at stake.

[KidneyStone]

Call me crazy, but I really don't think that it is a bad idea to have blacks, whites, straights, gays, and any other minority working together.

This involves compromise...and who wants to compromise

[Sethomas]

I always liked the Book of Job. God's not dead, or even less attentitive. He's just having fun and proving a point. I'm reading a book right now about miracles in the medieval world. Back then, God's hand in daily affairs was an a priori, at least in the common mind. Were people happier with their lives back then? Fuck no. And of course, when people made assertions of their right to pleasure and dissent, God vanished. So, it's pretty pointless to throw out claims that God is here or gone or on sabbatical or whatever. Life was ingeniously engineered to be an awful crock of shit. Call it Original Sin, call it whatever. If you have faith, at least you can hold onto the pretension that you'll be rewarded ultimately for putting up with it all.

[Brandon]

This war was won through bigotry, and nothing else. Religious zealots who believe that war is ok so long as gay people cannot marry. People who say that abortion is wrong, but killing innocent children in Iraq is ok, because they are Heathens. Bigots who believe that marriage needs protected from "godless sinful deviants" while that very institution is being corroded from the inside by people like Britney Spears, J-Lo, and every station that has aired a "Bachelor" style show.
I never thought I'd come to the aid of Christian conservatives.. but here goes.

I think you're really overgeneralizing, and it's unfair. Not everyone who opposed gay marriage is a homophobe -- some are traditionalists, and many simply believe -- for religious reasons -- that marriage was an institution created solely for the union of a man and a woman. These people usually place a high social value on marriage and family life, and they are, as such, riled whenever radical changes are instituted and/or celebrated in these arenas.

I don't deny that many are simply bigots, but once again, you were addressing "the American People as a whole."

Also, I don't know of anyone who has suggested that it's ok to kill innocent Muslim children. Maybe it's just because I don't live in a Red State.

I know you're just venting right now, but try to keep a cool head and avoid thinking that people who disagree with you are automatically malevolent or stupid. These kinds of columns are popping up all over the place now, and it isn't helping the cause at all.

[Ant10708]

Exactly no one will be convinced to see it your way if all you do is call them an idiot.

[Big Papa Goat]

Americans aren't being very nice lately, so clearly God has either died, or forsaken the world. Because Americans have problems.
And when did bigotry take over christianity?

[sadie]

http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=10622

With all great respect, I believe that God does play dice. And I think I know who God’s dice are.

[Dole]

God's not dead, but he has phoned in sick.

[Revolver05]

The great achillies heel of men has always been; when things go wrong, to start looking for god. To call out in despair over his/her/it's absence in the world at the time. What we really need to do is look past the state of god in question, "is he dead, alive, on vacation?", and fix our own problems.
I am not a "christian" per se. I grew up in a protestant (presbytarian), midwestern household, and was taught the bible, and the words of scripture. I never really took hold to anything other than the simple things Jesus taught. Things like turn the other cheek, and loving one's neighbor. Cheesy as all this sounds, it is the best way to live, christian or non christian. Fuck religion, it's a crutch for our fear of an end that is inevitable to come. We create heaven so we wont have to really die, but now it's time to put our dicks on the table and say it: our problems are just that, our problems, and even if there is a god, he's not going to come down with his middle finger and smite the bigoted, and overzealous. We have to deal with ourselves.

[Spectre X]

I love you, revolver.

[Revolver05]

Gracias good sir

[Revolver05]

People keep on complaining that no one around them is living a good life, being a nice person, bringing over pies once a week, being bigoted, and especially not living like Jesus taught. Then they go on to say that everybody should live like Jesus taught, but since they arent, we need some omniscient diety's intervention to make everyone live like the messiah.
Dont be so fucking stupid. Drag your own ass out of the dirt. God will not help you. Drag someone else with you, for God will not help them. It's about damn time we take our searching eyes off of the heavens, and start looking at each other. I dislike Bush to no end, but I'm not just going to sit in my living room crying about God's deceased nature, I'm going to start working on the Dem's next campaign, and prepare for the problems ahead. Be prepared, the next four years will not be pretty, but I'm not going to wail about the great spirit's absence.

[Ant10708]

And when did bigotry take over christianity?
Where have you been? The Crusades was all about bigotry.


Damn Pat Robertson and all these crazy Christians make everyone who voted Bush or who is Christian(Catholics) look like morons for beign associated.
:(

[kellychaos]

I think you're really overgeneralizing, and it's unfair. Not everyone who opposed gay marriage is a homophobe -- some are traditionalists, and many simply believe -- for religious reasons -- that marriage was an institution created solely for the union of a man and a woman. These people usually place a high social value on marriage and family life, and they are, as such, riled whenever radical changes are instituted and/or celebrated in these arenas.


Do you think that a lot of state initiatives on legalizing gay marriage would have passed had they used the term "civic union" rather than "marriage". In other words, is semantics a sticking point with some fundamentalists?

And, for the Goat ... a one, anda two anda three:

Your Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore
© John Prine

While digesting Reader's Digest
In the back of a dirty book store,
A plastic flag, with gum on the back,
Fell out on the floor.
Well, I picked it up and I ran outside
Slapped it on my window shield,
And if I could see old Betsy Ross
I'd tell her how good I feel.

Chorus:
But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
They're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.

Well, I went to the bank this morning
And the cashier he said to me,
"If you join the Christmas club
We'll give you ten of them flags for free."
Well, I didn't mess around a bit
I took him up on what he said.
And I stuck them stickers all over my car
And one on my wife's forehead.

Repeat Chorus:

Well, I got my window shield so filled
With flags I couldn't see.
So, I ran the car upside a curb
And right into a tree.
By the time they got a doctor down
I was already dead.
And I'll never understand why the man
Standing in the Pearly Gates said...

"But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
We're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more."

[sadie]

In other words, is semantics a sticking point with some fundamentalists?
they're called fundamentalists mostly due to semantics, right? they believe that the bible is the literal word of god.

[Helm]

Wake up god, if you are there, we need you now more than ever. So much is at stake.


Why are you talking to god for? Asking him to help you because things got tough? There's no bigger intellectual cop-out than that. Even if god exists, he doesn't deserve anyone's prayers. God has denied the living the moment he gave us a choice to stray from his supposed sacred morality. The price of your free will is that you stand on your own two feet and cope with the world. There's nothing that disgusts me more than what you're doing.

[FartinMowler]

Religous people make me laugh :/ I really wish people would just concentrate on being good.

[Immortal Goat]

I wasn't really praying, just trying to make a point. I do not pray. My god is not the same as the Christian God. I was speaking metaphorically. God has died in the minds of those who profess "His" will the loudest. Those people need "awakened" to the reality of what they are doing. They are destroying this country and all it stands for. Hence "If you are there, wake up."

[Brandon]

Do you think that a lot of state initiatives on legalizing gay marriage would have passed had they used the term "civic union" rather than "marriage". In other words, is semantics a sticking point with some fundamentalists?
First of all, not everyone who opposes gay marriage is a fundamentalist.

And, to be honest, I do think semantics is a sticking point. People seem to be much more tolerant of the idea of "civil unions," but feel defining "marriage" as anything other than one man and one woman will somehow cheapen the institution.

Once again, I'm not denying that homophobia was a motivator for many -- I just feel it's inappropriate to assume that everyone who opposed gay marriage is some kind of bigot.

[Helm]

Your country doesn't stand for anything.

[Strapping Young Lad]

if God were to come down from his cloud, take a look around, and voice his opinion, does anyone think he'd really approve of the steps George Bush has taken?

Hell is a lie. If God were a loving God, he wouldn't punish his creations by condemning them to a flaming inferno for all eternity, no matter what they were responsible for in "this life." That includes Hitler, Genghis Khan, and Napolean.

Off the record, though. I don't believe there's a God. I do believe, however, that there are many many unseen forces at work. And that time is a perception, not a law.

[Immortal Goat]

Your country doesn't stand for anything.
The sad thing is that right now, you are right. It USED to stand for something, but not anymore. I am not saying that our country was the only country in the world with the freedoms we had, but that we were one of a few. We no longer are. The USA used to stand for freedom ad equality in a world where many countries didn't. We accepted immigrants from all over. Not any longer. Due to bigotry and fear, we have closed our borders, and worse, made other countries hate us so much that people don't want to come here anyway.

[Mr. Oysterhead]

And plenty want out.

[sadie]

the us is the world's spoiled brat.

[kahljorn]

The US wants Alexander the great or some other -bc ruler for president. Stupid cunts.

[Perndog]

First of all, not everyone who opposes gay marriage is a fundamentalist.

And, to be honest, I do think semantics is a sticking point. People seem to be much more tolerant of the idea of "civil unions," but feel defining "marriage" as anything other than one man and one woman will somehow cheapen the institution.

Once again, I'm not denying that homophobia was a motivator for many -- I just feel it's inappropriate to assume that everyone who opposed gay marriage is some kind of bigot.

Not explicitly. But...well, yes, they are.

Because if it really, truly, HONESTLY were about the "sanctity of marriage," two things would have MILES of precedence over keeping gays from getting married.

1) Adultery would be criminalized. The Bible has more passages about adultery than about homosexuality.

2) Legal divorces would cease. Jesus himself said, in at least one of the Gospels, that divorce is a sin and all divorcees who remarry are adulterers. See point 1.

But shucks, anyone can slip up with that pretty neighbor lady, and plenty of normal people just pick the wrong hubby the first two or three times! We can't have adultery or divorce be illegal, that would just mess people up!

But only freaks would have sex with their own gender, though, and we gotta put a stop to that!

Seriously. If you strip away the self-deceit and don't read scripture selectively, that last paragraph is all they've got.

[Perndog]

And if you're talking about it in a secular sense, the argument about divorce and adultery still applies. Marriage looks dumber when people get married for a week and then split than when two guys are allowed to hook up.

Not to mention "one man, one woman" sounds like an awfully Christian idea to me, whether or not the people who say it *know* that they're speaking for religious values.

[Immortal Goat]

Well said, Pern, and my point exactly. Keeping rights away from certain groups is always bigoted, no matter the reasoning behind it.

[Brandon]

Because if it really, truly, HONESTLY were about the "sanctity of marriage," two things would have MILES of precedence over keeping gays from getting married.
Adultery and divorce do not redefine the entire institution of marriage. Gay marriage would. Which is more radical in your view?

I've gone on record as a gay marriage supporter, BTW, so don't flame me, people.

[Perndog]

Divorce DOES redefine the institution.

Marriage is a permanent thing.

Or do they not include the bit about "til death do us part" in the *sacred vows* at wedding ceremonies anymore?

[Ant10708]

Gay marriage should be permitted as long as religious instituions are not forced to allow it in their buildings.

America was built on compromises why can't we just call it civil unions but with all the tax benefits of marriage? Wouldn't that make everyone happy?

[Ant10708]

Anyways I'm in favor of allowing gays to marry. My uncle has been performing civil unions at his catering service for years(which as far as I can tell was a normal wedding without the legal rights) and it hasn't destroyed the world yet.

[Spectre X]

Gay marriage has been legal here in the Netherlands and we still haven't been bombarded with fire and brimstone from the sky.

[Emu]

Yeah, but what about the dreaded organizations of gaiety dedicated to turning all of our children into flaming queens that everyone over here is so scared of?

[Spectre X]

Gay people barely get into the media here.

Why? Because they act like everybody else acts here.

[Methuselah]

Well if you ask me God is alive just not as up front as he used to be. I for one do not follow any religon because all of them have too many holes and rules that are just plain stupid. I think God knows that Catholics and Christans are fucking up things just as much as radical Islams are. Just like the word 'love' we throw around 'in the name of God' far too loosly. We need to step back and ask ourselves if God would really want us to be doing this. Intilligence is useless when wisdom is needed.

[Emu]

That's why I worship Cthulhu. ;<

[Ant10708]

Gay people barely get into the media here.

Why? Because they act like everybody else acts here. Over here they have parades where they purposefully act as different as possible from everybody else.

[davinxtk]

Gay marriage should be permitted as long as religious instituions are not forced to allow it in their buildings.

America was built on compromises why can't we just call it civil unions but with all the tax benefits of marriage? Wouldn't that make everyone happy?

The compromise here would be to call every single legal marriage a "civil union," which I think is the best option anyway, and let the church sort out the rest of the "sanctity" and "til death do us part" garbage. It's a stupid argument any way you look at it, though, because people are just people.

Oh, and taxes aren't the only benefits people are looking at. Next-of-kin rights, survivors benefits and estate/inheritance rights/taxes are as well important. Everything that legally comes with marriage.

[adept_ninja]

We accepted immigrants from all over. Not any longer. Due to bigotry and fear, we have closed our borders, and worse, made other countries hate us so much that people don't want to come here anyway.

No sir I would have to say you are wrong. We havent "closed" our boarders. The immigrants now have it much easier then the ones in the past. For example the irish after the potato famin. Also the vietnamese after the veitnam war. We have always been bigoted you have just never noticed till now.
(no im not a bush supporter just proving a point)

[Emu]

The Vietnamese were REFUGEES, not immigrants. There's a difference.

[adept_ninja]

I stand corrected :posh

[Command Prompt]

There is no proof that God is dead, or alive
Many people belive in God
Belief in God would requires faith, since there is no proof
Having faith in god means that God exists to you
If God exists to you, then he cannot be dead
Being dead would undermine the usefulness of being God

Therefore god is not dead

There you go fags, case closed.

[dreaddi]

I don't believe in God/Christianity myself, but what you wrote reminds me of this concept called Deus Absconditus, which means invisible God... it's a modern way of thinking really, but it was actually already talked about in the old testament. It just means that God exists but he is really far away, so that he watches everything that's going on, but doesn't do anything about it. Or something like that. So I guess, in that case, he might as well be dead.

[Immortal Goat]

There is no proof that God is dead, or alive
Many people belive in God
Belief in God would requires faith, since there is no proof
Having faith in god means that God exists to you
If God exists to you, then he cannot be dead
Being dead would undermine the usefulness of being God

Therefore god is not dead

There you go fags, case closed.

Wrong. I can have a mental delusion that makes me think JFK always follows me around and is my best friend. Doesn't make him any less dead, now does it? And I was making a metaphor. I was talking about the hipocracy of the religious right. There may or may not be a God, but those who believe most strongly in that God seem to be the ones who have lost touch with It the most.

[Helm]

There is no proof that God is dead, or alive
Many people belive in God
Belief in God would requires faith, since there is no proof
Having faith in god means that God exists to you
If God exists to you, then he cannot be dead
Being dead would undermine the usefulness of being God

Therefore god is not dead

There you go fags, case closed.


I just can see the weakling chemically inbalanced neurons of yours straining for all they're worth trying to fire. Good job.

[Command Prompt]

Good one. Do you do jokes for Conan O'brian?

[Command Prompt]

There may or may not be a God, but those who believe most strongly in that God seem to be the ones who have lost touch with It the most.

Huh?

[Immortal Goat]

I am saying that those who most strongly profess their faith in their God seem to be doing more that supposedly angers It than those who do not believe. Dipshit.

[Command Prompt]

How about you back that up with an example? Dipshit.

[Ant10708]

I think he means the fun loving Islamic fundalmentalists and the kooky far Christian right that believes gays are evil.

[Immortal Goat]

That is one example, yes. But I am talking about intolerance in general. Religion sparks some of the most horrible intolerance of others, and that isn't what it is for.

[Perndog]

I don't think you're the arbiter of what religion is and isn't for.

[Anonymous]

God is dead, and not only that; he was very, very short.

[Brandon]

God is dead, and not only that; he was very, very short.
I'm really shocked nobody said that sooner in this thread.

[Anonymous]

Me too. Let's see who gets it.

[Spectre X]

Gay people barely get into the media here.

Why? Because they act like everybody else acts here. Over here they have parades where they purposefully act as different as possible from everybody else.

They have those here, once every year.

Gets just a tiny little blurb in the news, and that's it.

You bunch of pansies.

[kellychaos]

:Sigh For the last time! Old Testament God is mean and New Testament God is nice.

[Perndog]

I don't know about that.

The Old Testament God invented death.

But the New Testament God invented hell.

[Seven Force]

There is no proof that God is dead, or alive
Many people belive in God
Belief in God would requires faith, since there is no proof
Having faith in god means that God exists to you
If God exists to you, then he cannot be dead
Being dead would undermine the usefulness of being God

Therefore god is not dead

There you go fags, case closed.

I love Command Prompt. :)

[ziggytrix]

http://shopping.yahoo.com/video/images/muze/dvd/sm/33/192833.jpg :(

[Command Prompt]

Really? I pulled that out of first year philosophy and its full of errors.

Anyhow, heres more to chew on: How can God be alive or dead? Isn't mortality existant only in the plane of the human race? "God" represents different things to different people, but the common theme for what God is, is a being that clearly exists on a different level. Would "God" not represent a being that is not subject to the restrictions of the common man? He couldn't possibly be "dead" or "alive" in any terms that we could understand. If we could, then he wouldn't be "God"

However, the fact that we question his existance, doubt other's beliefs and different cultures interperet spirituality differently shows us that we all have free will, and we are free to take from it what we will

Maybe this concept is imparitive to the existance of God, and as long as we run with it he is not Dead.

[Brandon]

Anyhow, heres more to chew on: How can God be alive or dead? Isn't mortality existant only in the plane of the human race? "God" represents different things to different people, but the common theme for what God is, is a being that clearly exists on a different level. Would "God" not represent a being that is not subject to the restrictions of the common man? He couldn't possibly be "dead" or "alive" in any terms that we could understand. If we could, then he wouldn't be "God"
Even when Nietzshce said it, it was a figure of speech.

However, the fact that we question his existance, doubt other's beliefs and different cultures interperet spirituality differently shows us that we all have free will, and we are free to take from it what we will.
How does that prove that we have free will?

[Command Prompt]

Because if we didn't we wouldn't be able to question anything, we'd just accept it.

[Helm]

No. The illusion of free will is uh, an illusion. You're stupid.

[Seven Force]

Free will is obviously not an illusion.

[Immortal Goat]

However, free will IS an illusion if you believe in the typical Christian beliefs. God knows everything. What you did. What you are doing. And what you WILL do. This means that everything is predestined, and free will does not exist. If god has a "divine plan", we have no real choices, just an illusion of choice.

[Emu]

Free will is obviously not an illusion.

OBVIOUSLY :rolleyes

[Seven Force]

However, free will IS an illusion if you believe in the typical Christian beliefs. God knows everything. What you did. What you are doing. And what you WILL do. This means that everything is predestined, and free will does not exist. If god has a "divine plan", we have no real choices, just an illusion of choice.

Hmmmmm, good point, well made.

But, if that's true, then why try to win over souls to God? If they're predestined to go to hell, it's a waste of effort. If they belong to God, eventually someone else will win them over. Which is what I was, strangely enough, thinking about recently. The Bible (or God) wants us to save lost souls. Frankly, I think it's enough that I believe in Him, and am willing to follow his word, but I don't want to bug people about it, and condemn things in the world. Sure, they might be wrong, but who am I to point it out and judge?

I am sooo going to hell for saying that. :(

Anyway, I haven't been in the faith nor read the Bible in a long amount of time. Where does it say he knows what we will do? All I heard was that he has a record book of the stuff we've done (which if you don't believe in Jesus, ultimately doesn't matter). It seems that he might know some things, but not everything.

I don't know, maybe I should stop talking now... :/

[Helm]

Yes.

[Perndog]

No!

[Command Prompt]

I bet Helm thinks that because he's hideous looking, he's somehow been granted superior intellect, as some kind of genetic counter-balance.

Unfortunatley, fat guys use the same concept to try and convince people that they're well-hung

The plausability of both is laughable at best :(

[Seven Force]

No, i'm not going to let the hairy assed geek stop me from posting.

I am gonna wait till tomorrow though. I'm tired.

[Perndog]

Doesn't it suck when you're forced to admit to yourself (though never to the rest of the world) that someone's better than you?

[Anonymous]

I'm more than willing to admit that Helm's better than most of the people in this thread.

[Preechr]

Free will is the ability to defy God's will. The apple and the tree of life were symbolic of mankind's self-determination, because the ability to defy God is the only thing that makes our existance anything other than some sort of dietal diversion. I don't personally believe the sum of our lives is unnecessary or whimsical, but the final result is predetermined even if the path to that point is mostly left up to us.

If we sometimes make decisions in line with those that God would have made for us, it's only concidental because our decisions are only ever self-serving.

The ultimate goal of free will in that it's the defiance of God is the murder of God by man, and all our actions as a species lead to that eventual conclusion. By incessantly supplanting nature with constructs of our own we are serving that goal, and most of our technological progress is leading to the eventual replacement of God's designs on every level we have so far been able to perceive with those of our own making.

The nature of civilization itself is that which was found in nature, altered to benefit man specifically. Nature is treated by us as an enemy of civilization.

This is argued with the idea that our ability to create technology was given to us to improve the world as it was created, but that implies imperfection in God's intentions which doesn't seem to square well with belief in a perfect creator.

None of this is to say we will achieve our goal. I suppose that in our efforts to destroy God we'll have to eventually find some way to perceive her, proving her existence finally, which might lead to some ultimate plot twist in our story. This is also mostly only concerning the actions of men as a group, not our individual choices, but there's a relationship there that's more than casually linked.

[derrida]

Also, I don't know of anyone who has suggested that it's ok to kill innocent Muslim children. Maybe it's just because I don't live in a Red State.

I think this is what immortal goat was getting at-

God: LIFE IS NOT YOURS TO TAKE

"pig-fuckers": Well, you heard the man: suicide and abortion are bad. But alas! I am psychologically unable to confront the prospect that innocents are indirectly killed as a direct result of my government's actions so it sure is lucky that I came equipped with this useful moral calculator! Equivocation has never been so much fun!

[Helm]

I don't care to entertain the notion of me being 'better' than anybody. What sort of abstract scale of betterness would one use to measure himself up to other people? That's bullshit. And since this is the philosophy board (or maybe because I'm generally tired of this) I will not reply in kind to the random insults. I'll explain myslef.

I think Command Prompt is sincerily kinda stupid if he is posting there really basic and naive notions of his as if they're philosophical theorems of the highest degree, so should I not tell you that you're not AMAZINGLY BRILLIANT? It's not an insult, it's recognizing a fact. And that other person with the ass climber sig, you're like 14 (or at least you look 14? I don't know) and you've never even read one thing about all these difficult stuff you're discussing here so I thought it best to tell you to stop posting because you're not only embarassing yourself, you're also not helping the thread. I'm not telling you to stop posting on the internet, go right ahead and pump your post count until your anus starts to dribble a brown-reddish liquid. But this thread doesn't stand to gain a lot from your input, just saying.

[ziggytrix]

I don't care to entertain the notion of me being 'better' than anybody. What sort of abstract scale of betterness would one use to measure himself up to other people?

How bout "My God could kick your God's ass" - but since they aren't around at the moment how bout "We'll fight and whichever one of us wins obviously has God on our side."

[Emu]

And that other person with the ass climber sig, you're like 14 (or at least you look 14? I don't know)

I'm convinced that he's either 14 and lying or 18 and retarded.