We Like Torture, But We REALLY like SEXY Torture!!!

[mburbank]

Wonder how the Moral majority that elected W will like this new revelation? Thank God we take the high road.





Report: Sex tactics used on detainees at Guantanamo

Account describes grilling by women

By Paisley Dodds
Associated Press
Posted January 28 2005

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico -- Female interrogators tried to break Muslim detainees at the U.S. prison camp in Guantanamo Bay by sexual touching, wearing a miniskirt and thong underwear and in one case smearing a Saudi man's face with fake menstrual blood, according to an insider's written account.

A draft manuscript obtained by The Associated Press is classified as secret pending a Pentagon review for a planned book that details ways the U.S. military used women as part of tougher physical and psychological interrogation tactics to get terrorist suspects to talk.


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It's a revealing account of interrogations at the detention camp, where officials say they have halted some controversial techniques.

"I have really struggled with this because the detainees, their families and much of the world will think this is a religious war based on some of the techniques used, even though it is not the case," the author, former Army Sgt. Erik Saar, 29, told the AP.

Revealing 9 pages

Saar didn't provide the manuscript or approach the news agency, but confirmed the authenticity of nine draft pages the AP obtained. He requested that his hometown remain private so he wouldn't be harassed.

Saar worked as an Arabic translator at Guantanamo Bay in eastern Cuba from December 2002 to June 2003. At the time, it was under the command of Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, who had a mandate to get better intelligence from prisoners, including alleged Al Qaeda members caught in Afghanistan.

Saar said he witnessed about 20 interrogations and about three months after his arrival at the remote U.S. naval base he started noticing "disturbing" practices.

One female civilian contractor used an outfit that included a miniskirt, thong underwear and a bra during late-night interrogations with prisoners, mostly Muslim men who consider it taboo to have close contact with women who aren't their wives.

Beginning in April 2003, "there hung a short skirt and thong underwear on the hook on the back of the door" of one interrogation team's office, Saar writes. "Later I learned that this outfit was used for interrogations by one of the female civilian contractors ... on a team which conducted interrogations in the middle of the night on Saudi men who were refusing to talk."

Some Guantanamo prisoners who have been released say they were tormented by "prostitutes."

In another case, Saar describes a female military interrogator questioning an uncooperative 21-year-old Saudi detainee who allegedly had taken flying lessons in Arizona before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. (Suspected Sept. 11 hijacker Hani Hanjour received pilot instruction for three months in 1996 and in December 1997 at a flight school in Scottsdale, Ariz.)

"His female interrogator decided that she needed to turn up the heat," Saar writes, saying she repeatedly asked the detainee who sent him to Arizona. The interrogator wanted to "break him," Saar adds, describing how she removed her uniform top to expose a tight-fitting T-shirt and began taunting the detainee, touching her breasts, rubbing them against the prisoner's back and commenting on his apparent erection. The detainee looked up and spat in her face, the manuscript recounts.

The interrogator left the room to ask a Muslim linguist how she could break the prisoner's reliance on God. The linguist told her to tell the detainee that she was menstruating, touch him, then make sure to turn off the water in his cell so he couldn't wash.

Strict interpretation of Islamic law forbids physical contact with women other than a man's wife or family member, and with any menstruating women, who are considered unclean.

"The concept was to make the detainee feel that after talking to her he was unclean and was unable to go before his God in prayer and gain strength," says the draft, stamped "Secret."

Red ink ploy

The interrogator used ink from a red pen to fool the detainee, Saar writes.

"She then started to place her hands in her pants as she walked behind the detainee," he says. "As she circled around him he could see that she was taking her hand out of her pants. When it became visible the detainee saw what appeared to be red blood on her hand. She said, `Who sent you to Arizona?' He then glared at her with a piercing look of hatred.

"She then wiped the red ink on his face. He shouted at the top of his lungs, spat at her and lunged forward"--so fiercely that he broke loose from one ankle shackle.

"He began to cry like a baby," the draft says.

Events Saar describes resemble two previous reports of abusive female interrogation tactics, although it wasn't possible to independently verify his account.

In November, in response to an AP request, the military described an April 2003 incident in which a female interrogator took off her uniform top, exposed her brown T-shirt, ran her fingers through a detainee's hair and sat on his lap. That session was immediately ended by a supervisor and that interrogator received a written reprimand and additional training, the military said.

In another incident, the military reported that in early 2003 a different female interrogator "wiped dye from red magic marker on detainees' shirt after detainee spit on her," telling the detainee it was blood. She was verbally reprimanded, the military said.

About 20 percent of the guards at Guantanamo are women, said Lt. Col. James Marshall, a spokesman for U.S. Southern Command. He wouldn't say how many of the interrogators were female.

Marshall wouldn't address whether the U.S. military had a specific strategy to use women.

"U.S. forces treat all detainees and conduct all interrogations, wherever they may occur, humanely and consistent with U.S. legal obligations, and in particular with legal obligations prohibiting torture," Marshall said late Wednesday.

A role for women

But some officials at the U.S. Southern Command have questioned the formation of an all-female team as one of Guantanamo's "Immediate Reaction Force" units that subdue troublesome male prisoners in their cells, according to a document classified as secret and obtained by the AP.

In one incident, dated June 19, 2004, "The detainee appears to be genuinely traumatized by a female escort securing the detainee's leg irons," according to the document, a U.S. Southern Command summary of videotapes shot when the teams were used.

The summary warned that anyone outside Department of Defense channels should be prepared to address allegations that women were used intentionally with Muslim men.

At Guantanamo, Saar said, "Interrogators were given a lot of latitude under Miller," the commander who went from the prison in Cuba to overseeing prisons in Iraq, where the Abu Ghraib scandal shocked the world with pictures of prisoner abuses.

Several female troops have been charged in the Abu Ghraib scandal.

Saar said he volunteered to go to Guantanamo but became disillusioned during his six months at the prison.

After leaving the Army with more than four years of service, Saar worked as a contractor briefly for the FBI.

The Department of Defense censored parts of his draft, mainly blacking out names, said Saar, who hired Washington attorney Mark Zaid to represent him. Saar needed permission to publish because he signed a disclosure statement before going to Guantanamo.

The book, which Saar titled "Inside the Wire," is due out this year with Penguin Press.

Guantanamo has nearly 545 prisoners from about 40 countries--many held more than three years without charge or access to lawyers. Many of them are suspected of links to Al Qaeda or Afghanistan's ousted Taliban regime, which harbored the terrorist network responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks.

[Ant10708]

Its torture now to have women expose themselves to you and pretend to rub their blood from their period on you? I don't see how its effective interrigation but I also don't see how its torture.

If someone pretended to rub feces on me I doubt I'd claim I was tortured. I'd try to kill the person thou if I believed it was actual fecal matter.

[executioneer]

Its torture now to have women expose themselves to you and pretend to rub their blood from their period on you? I don't see how its effective interrigation but I also don't see how its torture.


because of

Muslim men who consider it taboo to have close contact with women who aren't their wives.

and the menstrual blood thing i think is considered to be incredibly unclean too idk

[KevinTheOmnivore]

"His female interrogator decided that she needed to turn up the heat," Saar writes, saying she repeatedly asked the detainee who sent him to Arizona. The interrogator wanted to "break him," Saar adds, describing how she removed her uniform top to expose a tight-fitting T-shirt and began taunting the detainee, touching her breasts, rubbing them against the prisoner's back and commenting on his apparent erection. The detainee looked up and spat in her face, the manuscript recounts.

This isn't torture, this is Cinemax at 3 am.

[mburbank]

I personally think it's torture, because it was designed to be torture.

But hey, that's debateable.

I just want to know, torture or not,
A.) could this horrid nonsense be effective?
B.) Is this really a role for women in the military?
C.) Would we use guy soldiers to sexy up female prisoners?
D.) Isn't this all some kind of sick Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS fantasy and does it have any place at all in intelligence gathering?
E.) How does this kind of crap square with the whole 'More Moral Than Thou' evangelical crap Bushes reborn buddies are pushing?
F.) Was this just a few Sexy Apples, or is this policy?
G.) Hey! We got photos from Abu Gharib! Where's my photos of sexy interrogations? Not the mentsrual blood ones, that's just gross, but I could go for some fondling and or thing photos.
H.) Lets see, what else could we do to make the things moslems say about us true? If they hated us for our freedom, imagine how much they'll hate us for making our prisoners think we're whiping menstrual blood on them. Have we forced them to eat pork yet? That could be fun.
I.) What, exactly, is the bottom of the barrel for us?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I'm sorry, the male in me got ahead of itself. I agree that this is wrong.


I just want to know, torture or not,
A.) could this horrid nonsense be effective?

I think that's the debateable matter, right? A lot of folks say this stuff is really ineffective, because prisoners merely tell you what you want to hear, rather than what you need to hear.

E.) How does this kind of crap square with the whole 'More Moral Than Thou' evangelical crap Bushes reborn buddies are pushing?

Well, perhaps in the grand scheme of things, this provides us with information we need to keep Americans safe. Evangelicals like to feel safe. Perhaps?


H.) Lets see, what else could we do to make the things moslems say about us true? If they hated us for our freedom, imagine how much they'll hate us for making our prisoners think we're whiping menstrual blood on them. Have we forced them to eat pork yet? That could be fun.

Well, we could strike a deal with them. If we stop doing pole dance routines for their prisoners, maybe they can stop chopping off the fucking heads of ours! While I do find this method of intelligence gathering distateful and immoral, I don't know that anybody on the proverbial other side holds anything near the moral high ground.

I.) What, exactly, is the bottom of the barrel for us?

VHS.

[mburbank]

"If we stop doing pole dance routines for their prisoners, maybe they can stop chopping off the fucking heads of ours! "

I'm not a big fan of comparison as a method of figuring who's behavior is moral. I think the whole idea of comparitive Morality is a dead end.

Based on that argument we could still gouge out their eyes and cut off their ears and retain the moral high ground.

When I talk about how much they hate us, I'm thinking of potential future head cutter offers. Some kid who might decide maybe the crazy ass mullah screaming at the Mosque was right about us because it turns out that when we capture them we have near naked women smearing prisoners who may not even be guilty of anything and hve never been charged with menstrual blood.

Plus, how about a little cost benefit analysis here? "Hmmmm. Them naked pyramid photos got out, and that was pretty bad for our side. What would happen if opur Menstrul Blood interogation technique somehow got to the media? Thank god it's not physically possible that could ever happen, otherwise this might be a really, really dumb idea."

Think anyone will get fired for this one? maybe w should find out who's idea it was so W can give them a presidentail medal of freedom.

Kev, baby, I know you're doing the whole devils advocate type thing, but seriously, this has nothing to do with the way terrorisst wage war. My problem with our downaward spiral should not be seen as an endorsement of head cutter offers. But my tax dollars don't funbd head cutting offing and my citizenship isn't a tacit endorsement of head cutting offing.

It's all very wierd because, me personally, I think dropping lots of bombs on people is a stain on the concept of America, even if some of them do really bad stuff to us first. I don't know how you avoid it, but I do think it's very, very. very bad for us that mostly we think it's a football game. I think clusterbombs and Land Mines and other indescriminmate munitions are intended to be terrorism and that's a big old stain on America. This little Menstrual Blood morality play is so minor comopared to that shit, but I feel as if there ought to be common ground here. I feel as if even the most hawkish ought to know that stacking prisoners in naked pyramids and making them think we're defiling them with menstrual blood is beneath us as Americans, it stains us, it makes us bad people. I feel like we all ought to agree on that, and I feel like any leader who didn't want to get to the bottom of shit like this and make it stop, well, that leader is no longer someone who just disagrees with me politically, that leader is a great big bag of shit.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

When I talk about how much they hate us, I'm thinking of potential future head cutter offers. Some kid who might decide maybe the crazy ass mullah screaming at the Mosque was right about us because it turns out that when we capture them we have near naked women smearing prisoners who may not even be guilty of anything and hve never been charged with menstrual blood.

Obviously, as I've already said, what we're doing is wrong, and you've already highlighted some of the reasons why.

However, we're a far cry from eye gouging being acceptable methods of intelligence gathering. We're playing head games, and while they may classify as cruel and unusual, it doesn't classify as murder.

If that little boy listening to the mullah gets upset and angry towards America, I can understand it. But if he gets upset, gets angry, and then decides the best form of retribution would be to target civilian aid workers and shoot them in the head...well, eh.....no dice. There is a moral line there, and sometimes I feel these so-called insurgents look for any reason at all to act like barbarians.


Kev, baby, I know you're doing the whole devils advocate type thing, but seriously, this has nothing to do with the way terrorisst wage war. My problem with our downaward spiral should not be seen as an endorsement of head cutter offers. But my tax dollars don't funbd head cutting offing and my citizenship isn't a tacit endorsement of head cutting offing.

Well, while I get your point, I think this does have something to do with the way terrorists/insurgents/whatever wage war. You're right, our tax dollars shouldn't be going towards these strange, inhumane, although terribly erotic forms of intelligence gathering. I do think this is bad policy, because the pragmatist tells me that the people we're dealing with will rationalize this in a way that they can justify murderous acts.

But then the reactionary, irracible American in me says "wait a minute, they CHOP HEADS OFF, AND KIDNAP CATHOLIC BISHOPS, AND DO DAILY DRIVE-BYS AT CHURCHES IN MOSUL, AND CAR BOMB THEM, ETC. ETC. WHERE'S THEIR RESPECT FOR RELIGION AND TOLERANCE, HUH? FUCK THEM! FUCK THEM UP THEIR STUPID ASSES!"

Then I calm down.

I feel as if even the most hawkish ought to know that stacking prisoners in naked pyramids and making them think we're defiling them with menstrual blood is beneath us as Americans, it stains us, it makes us bad people. I feel like we all ought to agree on that, and I feel like any leader who didn't want to get to the bottom of shit like this and make it stop, well, that leader is no longer someone who just disagrees with me politically, that leader is a great big bag of shit.

Agreed. This practice needs to stop.

[ItalianStereotype]

it seems like there's a lot of gray area where torture is involved. I don't know if I exactly condone this sort of behavior from our own troops, but is it really torture? I don't see these prisoners waking up in a cold sweat 20 years down the road from a "dirtiness flashback."

when we think ourselves too gentlemanly, we make a fatal error. it happened to the British, the Romans, the French, etc.

[Alive]

Sounds like the u.s. goverment today allright. our troops are dying over there, and there troops are getting free lap dances from us. (putting aside all torture talk of course)

[kellychaos]

A.) could this horrid nonsense be effective?


If the torture victim is fundamentally bent, I believe so.


B.) Is this really a role for women in the military?


A matter of perspective, Max. It's only sexist if you allow it to be; otherwise, it's just a part of the job in which your particular attributes can be effective. Think about female police officers posing as prostitutes in solicitation sting operations.


C.) Would we use guy soldiers to sexy up female prisoners?

Given our social morrays, this wouldn't be effective if our women soldiers were the torture victims but, against another society where the belief system, social structure, ect is different, why not?


D.) Isn't this all some kind of sick Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS fantasy and does it have any place at all in intelligence gathering?

It's obviously effective or someone would have written a "whistle blowing" book about the outrage and injustice of it all. I think that it's quite laughable considering the known methods of torture that Saddam used on his own people. Honestly Max, would you rather we beat, bludgeon, set fire to, electrify, ect them?


E.) How does this kind of crap square with the whole 'More Moral Than Thou' evangelical crap Bushes reborn buddies are pushing?

I agree that it's quite hypocritical. Believe me, I have no love for the current administration. At times; however, I think that you (Max) make your argument against the administration more so than the subject in question.


F.) Was this just a few Sexy Apples, or is this policy?

I think that it's a matter of using methods that they thought would work on the current subjects based on collective intelligence.


H.) Lets see, what else could we do to make the things moslems say about us true? If they hated us for our freedom, imagine how much they'll hate us for making our prisoners think we're whiping menstrual blood on them. Have we forced them to eat pork yet? That could be fun.

The key word here is "think". Psychological torture, such as sleep deprivation, holding back privileges, lying to the subject, ect is acceptable to a degree, even by the Geneva Convention.


I.) What, exactly, is the bottom of the barrel for us?

Behaving as they have against their own people.

[El Blanco]

I would just like to admit that I've been secretly an agent of al queda, al jazeera, al sharpton, al cohol.......whatever it takes to get into gitmo and be "tortured" like that.

On second thought, by the time I get there, they will have probably moved on to Paulie Shore movie marathons.

[davinxtk]

Given our social morrays, this wouldn't be effective if our women soldiers were the torture victims but, against another society where the belief system, social structure, ect is different, why not?

Uhm. Are you trying to say that rape and sexual assault wouldn't be an ineffective method of torture against an American woman?
Against any woman?

It's obviously effective or someone would have written a "whistle blowing" book about the outrage and injustice of it all.

Ah, yes, someone on the staff might have written a whistle-blowing book. Except that he'd have to get permission from the federal government because they probably have them sign non-disclosure agreements. This guy would have to really know is stuff, maybe even run the place to get this kind of info. And he could call his "whistle blowing" book Inside the Wire.
Honestly, did you even read the article?

I think that it's a matter of using methods that they thought would work on the current subjects based on collective intelligence.

So you're saying it's a collective of bad apples making sexy policy. Sexy apples making bad policy. Bad sexy apple policy.




Sorry Max. Go ahead.

[BlueOatmeal]

I think I'm going to blow up a building. That way I can touch some boobies. This is going to be the fastest New Years resolution ever!

[mburbank]

"I think that it's quite laughable considering the known methods of torture that Saddam used on his own people. Honestly Max, would you rather we beat, bludgeon, set fire to, electrify, ect them? "

That's a totally stupid argumemt and it assumes a lot.

If I say I'm against beating prisoners with rubber hoses, am I say I'd rather we beat tem with tire irons?

In a nutshell; This is a stupid, ugly, cruel way for US to behave; It has, at best, very questionble utility; it's BOUND to make us look bad when it comes out, It confirms for people all over the world that OUR talk of morality is hypocritical. It's a bad idea. Or are YOU saying you think having our female soldiers tart themselves up, jam their hands in their pants and spread fake menstrual blood on people's faces is a noble, patriotic and marvelous gesture of America's embrace of freedom?

[kellychaos]

Uhm. Are you trying to say that rape and sexual assault wouldn't be an ineffective method of torture against an American woman?
Against any woman?

Who was sexually assaulted? The "menstrual blood" wasn't even real. It's called psychological torture.

It's obviously effective or someone would have written a "whistle blowing" book about the outrage and injustice of it all.[/quote]


Ah, yes, someone on the staff might have written a whistle-blowing book. Except that he'd have to get permission from the federal government because they probably have them sign non-disclosure agreements. This guy would have to really know is stuff, maybe even run the place to get this kind of info. And he could call his "whistle blowing" book Inside the Wire.


A total red herring. A staffer didn't write the book. A muslim translator with muslims biases did.


Honestly, did you even read the article?


Every last syllable.


So you're saying it's a collective of bad apples making sexy policy. Sexy apples making bad policy. Bad sexy apple policy.


No, it's a collection of people trying their best to do their job with methods that they feel would be effective. Honestly, with the world as a stage, those people are not going to do anything to deny human rights to the individuals to the degree they are abused in other countries. They have more rights than we would enjoy were the situation to be reversed.

[kellychaos]

"I think that it's quite laughable considering the known methods of torture that Saddam used on his own people. Honestly Max, would you rather we beat, bludgeon, set fire to, electrify, ect them? "

That's a totally stupid argumemt and it assumes a lot.


Just going by the info in the article, what does it assume? I really don't find anything that objectionable considering the way we would be treated if the situation were reversed. I know that I'm not assuming the testimony of Iraqi torture victims nor the footage of the rooms and materials used against them. Am I naive enough to think that the officials at that camp are being totally forthcoming? Abosolutely not, but I AM basing my opinion from the facts that I DO know. That's the best that I can be expected to do. They're basically at a POW camp, not the Hotel Hilton. They're there for a purpose. No objectives would be met if they were just left alone to eat, sleep and be left alone. What would you have them do to meet their objectives?

I have not supported the cause for this war nor do I particularly like the fact that we have to subject our military members to being there now or doing the types of things (as above) that they have to do but I'm way past the "spilled milk" stage. We are deep into this and we have to sometimes do ugly things toward a good end. But again, my thinking is this whole thing is going to end up in a huge civil war after our redeployment and all will be for naught. Say, really.

[mburbank]

"...considering the way we would be treated if the situation were reversed."

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I don't think 'the way we would be treated' is a good way to judge ourselves. I think that's a cheap ass excuse for allowing yourself to do stuff you know is wrong. AND if you read the article, all it gets is your opponent spitting in your face. So, it's ineffective, and it's a bad thing to do.

Michael Tyson bites peoples ears off. That does not make it okay for me to kick you in the nuts and while you lie there tell you, 'Yeah, well, if Mike Tyson had you, He bite off your ear, so quit your damn whining.'

Ask yourself, what are we actually trying to do? Protect ourselves? Spread democracy? Fight terrorism? I find it really hard to believe we advance any of those goals by 'punking' Iraqis with fake Menstrual blood.

AND it makes me think that when we pile 'em up naked and make them blow each other that maybe, just maybe, it has nothing to do with 'a few bad apples' and has maybe a little more to do with a morally bankrupt attitude toward prisoners. Now I might be more inclined towards moral bankruptcy if I thought this kind of crap was even marginally effective, but there's no evidence at all it is.

And moral bankruptcy is NOT graded on a curve.

[Ant10708]

So does anyone know what is an effective way to gather information from captured people that we suspect of being involved with terrorism?


That guy from Pakistan that was the computer expert. Does anyone know how we cracked and convinced him to join our side and spill the beans on some big guys like the African embassy bomber?

I would also like to point out that just because these guys spit on the interrogators doesn't mean it is because of the method used. I bet half of them spit in our faces when we begin asking them any questions despite the clothing we have on. And every method can't work for every person anyways. But I do agree that this seems ineffective.

[kellychaos]

So on to other means of interrogation where we will probably, again, get our faces spit at.

I would ask of all of you, "Do you think that the military would use a different means of interrogation under the Clinton administration and, if so, would your comments be the same?"

[mburbank]

A.) My comments would be EXACTLY the same, but I'd feel even worse, as I did during "Welfare Reform". Sick and betrayed as opposed to just sick.
B.) While I think it could have happened, I think it would have been a LOT less likely. I think this administration has encouraged (across the board, not just on the subject of torture) and attitude of 'you know what kind of things we want, you do whatever all you think you ned to do to get that done and we won't look too close until y'all get caught, at which point will talk about hw we don't like that kind of crap and then promote you or give you a medal of freedom.
C.) This IS happening NOW. Clinton is not president NOW. I answered the hypothetical, but just to be clear? I mad about where we as a country are ACTIVELY GOING not where we might have gone under other various fictional circumstances. And for the record, if Batman or Jesus had been president and this had happened, I would be just as mad.

[Ant10708]

Batman would never allow such things to happen.

[kellychaos]

Point taken. I just wanted to get a sense of who you were mad at and why ... the source and motivation behind your argument. For the record, I don't think the behaviour of the military reflects any sweeping societal change brought on by the current administration so much as a societal change that allows things that were once able to be hidden by the military which are now being exposed to the light. Think WWII propaganda film footage with GI happily eating C-rations. See? Damned telecommunications technology! They can't hide nothing anymore.

[mburbank]

Good thing, to. I bet if you dragged Donald Rumsfeld into the light of day he'd burst into fire.

[kellychaos]

My point being: The military structure really hasn't changed in a while. We were never armored in such a way as to resiliently withstand urban warfare and terrorist attacks. The intelligence community have consisted of the same personnel (or similiar people, cabinet-wise) for a couple of administrations. The method in which we gather intelligence in the military and use that intelligence in interrogation (and the morality involved) has, not really, devolved. General Pershing has never been disproven of burying Philippine muslims with pigs as a means of psychological intimidation. Just hypothetically musing, but it would be my conjecture that the only difference between the present administration and a democratic one, given that they were in power at the start of this involvement, is that they probably wouldn't have involved themselves, at least not in the same bumbling way.

[mburbank]

For the sake of argument, okay, though I think the stovepiping of intelligence, the outsourcing of interrogation and the dominance of the Pentagon over both State and CIA point to a different conclusion, but for arguments sake...

Now that we know our SUV's are unarmored and we're in urban combat, might we not make a really good effort to armor them? And don't say we are, because after the last time W said that, HUMV said they were perfectly capable of doing a lot more a lot faster and had said so before.

Now that we know we are torturing people, might we not want to cut it the fuck out? Now that we know people finding out we strip pisoners and make them blow each other was kind of bad PR, might we not want to stop doing shit like that?

It's one thing to say that stuff like that has been going on secretly for a long time. It's no secret now. What say we start actually taking reality into account?

[kellychaos]

For the sake of argument, okay, though I think the stovepiping of intelligence, the outsourcing of interrogation and the dominance of the Pentagon over both State and CIA point to a different conclusion, but for arguments sake...


I'm not so sure how micro-managed the intelligence community is and how much free-lance is involved.


Now that we know our SUV's are unarmored and we're in urban combat, might we not make a really good effort to armor them? And don't say we are, because after the last time W said that, HUMV said they were perfectly capable of doing a lot more a lot faster and had said so before.


That's a pretty massive under-taking on short-notice. Your talking about not only changing equipment but the whole doctrine of how we fight and what we fight with.

[mburbank]

As in...

"(AP) - Videotapes of riot squads subduing troublesome terror suspects at the U.S. prison camp at Guantanamo Bay show the guards punching some detainees, tying one to a gurney for questioning and forcing a dozen to strip from the waist down, according to a secret report."

See, in 42 years I've seen a hell of a lot of riot conrtrol and I've never seen rioters stripped from the waist down.

What is it about us that we are DESPERATE to see Iraqi genitalia? Is there some official doctrine that says

"The best way to win the hearst and minds of the Iraqi people than to let them know we really want a look at their men's cocks."

"Freedom and forcing guys to show you their genitals is on the march!"

"The Iraqi people will welcome us with open arms and dropped trousers. Especially the prisoners"


I'm not saying that taking a guys pants off is torture or even that bad. I'm just saying, if we don't know by that in Ahbu Garib there are NO CIRCUMSTANCES under which TAKING A GUYS PANTS OFF is going to play well, it's because we are retarded.

[El Blanco]

"The Iraqi people will welcome us with open arms and dropped trousers. "

New sig. Thanks again, Max.

[mburbank]

I am so completely there for you.

[Ant10708]

As in...

"(AP) - Videotapes of riot squads subduing troublesome terror suspects at the U.S. prison camp at Guantanamo Bay show the guards punching some detainees, tying one to a gurney for questioning and forcing a dozen to strip from the waist down, according to a secret report."

See, in 42 years I've seen a hell of a lot of riot conrtrol and I've never seen rioters stripped from the waist down.

What is it about us that we are DESPERATE to see Iraqi genitalia? Is there some official doctrine that says

"The best way to win the hearst and minds of the Iraqi people than to let them know we really want a look at their men's cocks."

"Freedom and forcing guys to show you their genitals is on the march!"

"The Iraqi people will welcome us with open arms and dropped trousers. Especially the prisoners"


I'm not saying that taking a guys pants off is torture or even that bad. I'm just saying, if we don't know by that in Ahbu Garib there are NO CIRCUMSTANCES under which TAKING A GUYS PANTS OFF is going to play well, it's because we are retarded. Aren't the people in Guantanamo Bay mostly captured combatants from the Afghanstan war or did they start putting Iraqis there too?

[Ant10708]

Troublesome terror suspects in Iraq just get shot. They get to keep there pants on.



Four shot dead in Iraq jail riot
Abu Ghraib Prison, Iraq
The US says it holds about 7,000 inmates in prisons across Iraq
Four prisoners have been shot dead by US guards during a riot at an Iraqi jail, the US military has said.

The trouble blew up at the Camp Bucca prison in southern Iraq, after a routine search of cells, the US military said in a statement.

The riot "spread to three additional compounds", and lasted 45 minutes before guards opened fire, it said.

An investigation has been launched into both the unrest and the use of force to deal with it, the military added.

Six other prisoners were injured in the unrest at the prison, near the port of Umm Qasr, the military said.

'Increasingly volatile'

The statement said prisoners were "throwing rocks and fashioning weapons from materials inside their living areas".

"Guards attempted to calm the increasingly volatile situation using verbal warnings and, when that failed, by use of non-lethal force," it said.

"After about 45 minutes of escalating danger, lethal force was used to quell the violence."

Elsewhere in Iraq, three US marines were killed in a roadside bombing south of Baghdad.

The military said the three were conducting a security operation in Babil province when they died. It gave no further details.

An internet warning purportedly posted by the Iraqi wing of al-Qaeda, run by the wanted Jordanian militant leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, has vowed to continue its struggle despite Sunday's election, which it dismissed as an "American game".

"We in the al-Qaeda Organisation for Holy War in Iraq will continue the jihad until the banner of Islam flutters over Iraq," it said.

[kellychaos]

I was referring primarily to the incidents at GTMO, btw. If you are including the case of Abu'Grab (sp?), then yes, I agree that that was horrendous, uncalled-for and doesn't represent the military, imho. I still want to see how far up the chain THAT goes, or whether the soldiers at the bottom will be the scape-goats and that will be the end of it.