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KevinTheOmnivore
Mar 7th, 2005, 08:45 PM
http://www.amconmag.com/2005_03_14/article1.html

March 14, 2005 Issue
Copyright © 2005 The American Conservative

Marxism of the Right

by Robert Locke

Free spirits, the ambitious, ex-socialists, drug users, and sexual eccentrics often find an attractive political philosophy in libertarianism, the idea that individual freedom should be the sole rule of ethics and government. Libertarianism offers its believers a clear conscience to do things society presently restrains, like make more money, have more sex, or take more drugs. It promises a consistent formula for ethics, a rigorous framework for policy analysis, a foundation in American history, and the application of capitalist efficiencies to the whole of society. But while it contains substantial grains of truth, as a whole it is a seductive mistake.

There are many varieties of libertarianism, from natural-law libertarianism (the least crazy) to anarcho-capitalism (the most), and some varieties avoid some of the criticisms below. But many are still subject to most of them, and some of the more successful varieties—I recently heard a respected pundit insist that classical liberalism is libertarianism—enter a gray area where it is not really clear that they are libertarians at all. But because 95 percent of the libertarianism one encounters at cocktail parties, on editorial pages, and on Capitol Hill is a kind of commonplace “street” libertarianism, I decline to allow libertarians the sophistical trick of using a vulgar libertarianism to agitate for what they want by defending a refined version of their doctrine when challenged philosophically. We’ve seen Marxists pull that before.


This is no surprise, as libertarianism is basically the Marxism of the Right. If Marxism is the delusion that one can run society purely on altruism and collectivism, then libertarianism is the mirror-image delusion that one can run it purely on selfishness and individualism. Society in fact requires both individualism and collectivism, both selfishness and altruism, to function. Like Marxism, libertarianism offers the fraudulent intellectual security of a complete a priori account of the political good without the effort of empirical investigation. Like Marxism, it aspires, overtly or covertly, to reduce social life to economics. And like Marxism, it has its historical myths and a genius for making its followers feel like an elect unbound by the moral rules of their society.

The most fundamental problem with libertarianism is very simple: freedom, though a good thing, is simply not the only good thing in life. Simple physical security, which even a prisoner can possess, is not freedom, but one cannot live without it. Prosperity is connected to freedom, in that it makes us free to consume, but it is not the same thing, in that one can be rich but as unfree as a Victorian tycoon’s wife. A family is in fact one of the least free things imaginable, as the emotional satisfactions of it derive from relations that we are either born into without choice or, once they are chosen, entail obligations that we cannot walk away from with ease or justice. But security, prosperity, and family are in fact the bulk of happiness for most real people and the principal issues that concern governments.

Libertarians try to get around this fact that freedom is not the only good thing by trying to reduce all other goods to it through the concept of choice, claiming that everything that is good is so because we choose to partake of it. Therefore freedom, by giving us choice, supposedly embraces all other goods. But this violates common sense by denying that anything is good by nature, independently of whether we choose it. Nourishing foods are good for us by nature, not because we choose to eat them. Taken to its logical conclusion, the reduction of the good to the freely chosen means there are no inherently good or bad choices at all, but that a man who chose to spend his life playing tiddlywinks has lived as worthy a life as a Washington or a Churchill.

Furthermore, the reduction of all goods to individual choices presupposes that all goods are individual. But some, like national security, clean air, or a healthy culture, are inherently collective. It may be possible to privatize some, but only some, and the efforts can be comically inefficient. Do you really want to trace every pollutant in the air back to the factory that emitted it and sue?

Libertarians rightly concede that one’s freedom must end at the point at which it starts to impinge upon another person’s, but they radically underestimate how easily this happens. So even if the libertarian principle of “an it harm none, do as thou wilt,” is true, it does not license the behavior libertarians claim. Consider pornography: libertarians say it should be permitted because if someone doesn’t like it, he can choose not to view it. But what he can’t do is choose not to live in a culture that has been vulgarized by it.

Libertarians in real life rarely live up to their own theory but tend to indulge in the pleasant parts while declining to live up to the difficult portions. They flout the drug laws but continue to collect government benefits they consider illegitimate. This is not just an accidental failing of libertarianism’s believers but an intrinsic temptation of the doctrine that sets it up to fail whenever tried, just like Marxism.

Libertarians need to be asked some hard questions. What if a free society needed to draft its citizens in order to remain free? What if it needed to limit oil imports to protect the economic freedom of its citizens from unfriendly foreigners? What if it needed to force its citizens to become sufficiently educated to sustain a free society? What if it needed to deprive landowners of the freedom to refuse to sell their property as a precondition for giving everyone freedom of movement on highways? What if it needed to deprive citizens of the freedom to import cheap foreign labor in order to keep out poor foreigners who would vote for socialistic wealth redistribution?

In each of these cases, less freedom today is the price of more tomorrow. Total freedom today would just be a way of running down accumulated social capital and storing up problems for the future. So even if libertarianism is true in some ultimate sense, this does not prove that the libertarian policy choice is the right one today on any particular question.

Furthermore, if limiting freedom today may prolong it tomorrow, then limiting freedom tomorrow may prolong it the day after and so on, so the right amount of freedom may in fact be limited freedom in perpetuity. But if limited freedom is the right choice, then libertarianism, which makes freedom an absolute, is simply wrong. If all we want is limited freedom, then mere liberalism will do, or even better, a Burkean conservatism that reveres traditional liberties. There is no need to embrace outright libertarianism just because we want a healthy portion of freedom, and the alternative to libertarianism is not the USSR, it is America’s traditional liberties.

Libertarianism’s abstract and absolutist view of freedom leads to bizarre conclusions. Like slavery, libertarianism would have to allow one to sell oneself into it. (It has been possible at certain times in history to do just that by assuming debts one could not repay.) And libertarianism degenerates into outright idiocy when confronted with the problem of children, whom it treats like adults, supporting the abolition of compulsory education and all child-specific laws, like those against child labor and child sex. It likewise cannot handle the insane and the senile.

Libertarians argue that radical permissiveness, like legalizing drugs, would not shred a libertarian society because drug users who caused trouble would be disciplined by the threat of losing their jobs or homes if current laws that make it difficult to fire or evict people were abolished. They claim a “natural order” of reasonable behavior would emerge. But there is no actual empirical proof that this would happen. Furthermore, this means libertarianism is an all-or-nothing proposition: if society continues to protect people from the consequences of their actions in any way, libertarianism regarding specific freedoms is illegitimate. And since society does so protect people, libertarianism is an illegitimate moral position until the Great Libertarian Revolution has occurred.

And is society really wrong to protect people against the negative consequences of some of their free choices? While it is obviously fair to let people enjoy the benefits of their wise choices and suffer the costs of their stupid ones, decent societies set limits on both these outcomes. People are allowed to become millionaires, but they are taxed. They are allowed to go broke, but they are not then forced to starve. They are deprived of the most extreme benefits of freedom in order to spare us the most extreme costs. The libertopian alternative would be perhaps a more glittering society, but also a crueler one.

Empirically, most people don’t actually want absolute freedom, which is why democracies don’t elect libertarian governments. Irony of ironies, people don’t choose absolute freedom. But this refutes libertarianism by its own premise, as libertarianism defines the good as the freely chosen, yet people do not choose it. Paradoxically, people exercise their freedom not to be libertarians.

The political corollary of this is that since no electorate will support libertarianism, a libertarian government could never be achieved democratically but would have to be imposed by some kind of authoritarian state, which rather puts the lie to libertarians’ claim that under any other philosophy, busybodies who claim to know what’s best for other people impose their values on the rest of us. Libertarianism itself is based on the conviction that it is the one true political philosophy and all others are false. It entails imposing a certain kind of society, with all its attendant pluses and minuses, which the inhabitants thereof will not be free to opt out of except by leaving.

And if libertarians ever do acquire power, we may expect a farrago of bizarre policies. Many support abolition of government-issued money in favor of that minted by private banks. But this has already been tried, in various epochs, and doesn’t lead to any wonderful paradise of freedom but only to an explosion of fraud and currency debasement followed by the concentration of financial power in those few banks that survive the inevitable shaking-out. Many other libertarian schemes similarly founder on the empirical record.

A major reason for this is that libertarianism has a naïve view of economics that seems to have stopped paying attention to the actual history of capitalism around 1880. There is not the space here to refute simplistic laissez faire, but note for now that the second-richest nation in the world, Japan, has one of the most regulated economies, while nations in which government has essentially lost control over economic life, like Russia, are hardly economic paradises. Legitimate criticism of over-regulation does not entail going to the opposite extreme.

Libertarian naïveté extends to politics. They often confuse the absence of government impingement upon freedom with freedom as such. But without a sufficiently strong state, individual freedom falls prey to other more powerful individuals. A weak state and a freedom-respecting state are not the same thing, as shown by many a chaotic Third-World tyranny.

Libertarians are also naïve about the range and perversity of human desires they propose to unleash. They can imagine nothing more threatening than a bit of Sunday-afternoon sadomasochism, followed by some recreational drug use and work on Monday. They assume that if people are given freedom, they will gravitate towards essentially bourgeois lives, but this takes for granted things like the deferral of gratification that were pounded into them as children without their being free to refuse. They forget that for much of the population, preaching maximum freedom merely results in drunkenness, drugs, failure to hold a job, and pregnancy out of wedlock. Society is dependent upon inculcated self-restraint if it is not to slide into barbarism, and libertarians attack this self-restraint. Ironically, this often results in internal restraints being replaced by the external restraints of police and prison, resulting in less freedom, not more.

This contempt for self-restraint is emblematic of a deeper problem: libertarianism has a lot to say about freedom but little about learning to handle it. Freedom without judgment is dangerous at best, useless at worst. Yet libertarianism is philosophically incapable of evolving a theory of how to use freedom well because of its root dogma that all free choices are equal, which it cannot abandon except at the cost of admitting that there are other goods than freedom. Conservatives should know better.

Zhukov
Mar 7th, 2005, 09:46 PM
Libertarianism proceeds from an entirely different premise and therefore cannot be made comparable with Marxism.

To dismiss it as the "marxism of the right" is shamefull. Libertarianism is utterly worthless and is simply a desperate grasp by some bourgeois thinkers to wipe away the decay of capitalism. They move away from an economic base and end up with "individualism". they spend their lives aimlessly indulging themselves in politics as a hobby, while never actually making an impact on, let alone experiencing, societies realities. Few people understand what they write. Fewer still even care!

KevinTheOmnivore
Mar 7th, 2005, 10:20 PM
they spend their lives aimlessly indulging themselves in politics as a hobby, while never actually making an impact on, let alone experiencing, societies realities. Few people understand what they write. Fewer still even care!

Said the Communist.....

Zhukov
Mar 7th, 2005, 10:31 PM
Have you turned into a Libertarian?

You don't think that the communist linked unions in the early twentieth century achieved anything? Like wage increases, workers rights....?

You don't think that what is happening in Venezuela or Nepal right now is even a little bit important?


I post here as a hobby, but I don't find politics to be a hobby, and I'm not a rich academic who lives in a big house and doesn't eer have to worry about employment or money.

I always thought that if I could understand Marxism, it must be pretty easy. :/

El Blanco
Mar 7th, 2005, 10:45 PM
Did you read it? You should.

It states that libretarianism is like Marxism in that its the polar extreme of capitalism. It says that the group is meant to serve the individual. Marxism says the individual serves the group.

" If Marxism is the delusion that one can run society purely on altruism and collectivism, then libertarianism is the mirror-image delusion that one can run it purely on selfishness and individualism. "

Did you get that?

Yes, the unions made great strides. But, they had to find the balance of protecting the rights of the whole, and satisfying the desires of the individuals. Actually join a union and you will see this in action.

Better yet, join the teamsters local like I did and you'll see how a union can be as awful and corrupt as the corporation they were supposed to be protecting me and my coworkers from.[/semi-rant]

Yes, what is happening in Venezuala and Nepal is improtant. Hopefully, those people will find a happy medium of socialism and capitalism that will satisfy their specific needs.

KevinTheOmnivore
Mar 7th, 2005, 10:53 PM
Have you turned into a Libertarian?

You don't think that the communist linked unions in the early twentieth century achieved anything? Like wage increases, workers rights....?

You don't think that what is happening in Venezuela or Nepal right now is even a little bit important?

What I think is that you didn't read the article.

And no, I'm not a libertarian. Nor am I a communist.

Zhukov
Mar 7th, 2005, 11:02 PM
Yes I know Unions can be corrupt, thanks.

Marxism does not say "the individual should serve the group", that's just a hastily thrown together expanation of the communist ideoligy. Maxism is the philosophical idea that the development of the means of production is ultimately the key to understanding the development of society. Specificaly that the process is dialectical, and not automatic, involving a contradiction between the demands of economic development and the inevitable lag in human consciousness, ideas, theories, institutions, morality, etc.

Libertarians don't accept the class nature of development, hence "They move away from an economic base and end up with "individualism".

If you want to be simple and say that nazism is the marxism of the right, or capitalism is the opposite of communism, then go aead. I thought that this author was at least trying to be more accurate than that.

KevinTheOmnivore
Mar 7th, 2005, 11:15 PM
Libertarians don't accept the class nature of development, hence "They move away from an economic base and end up with "individualism".

The author wasn't debating how libertarianism is ideologically similar to communism. A lot of what he's talking about is perception and viability-- Both have become sort of the fringe skeleton in each wing's closet (communism being so for the Left for quite some years now). I think his motive has to do with the seemingly recent, "sexy" appeal to call yourself a "libertarian" on the Right and wrap yourself in the Constitution. I believe it was this authors intent to expose those people, expose their flaws, thus likening them to the status of Communists here in America (i.e. undesirable....sorry).

If you want to be simple and say that nazism is the marxism of the right, or capitalism is the opposite of communism, then go aead. I thought that this author was at least trying to be more accurate than that.

I don't think he said that.

El Blanco
Mar 7th, 2005, 11:17 PM
Libertarians don't accept the class nature of development, hence "They move away from an economic base and end up with "individualism".

Hastily thrown together explanation what?

Zhukov
Mar 7th, 2005, 11:33 PM
[quote=Zhukov]Libertarians don't accept the class nature of development, hence "They move away from an economic base and end up with "individualism".

The author wasn't debating how libertarianism is ideologically similar to communism. A lot of what he's talking about is perception and viability-- Both have become sort of the fringe skeleton in each wing's closet (communism being so for the Left for quite some years now). I think his motive has to do with the seemingly recent, "sexy" appeal to call yourself a "libertarian" on the Right and wrap yourself in the Constitution. I believe it was this authors intent to expose those people, expose their flaws, thus likening them to the status of Communists here in America (i.e. undesirable....sorry).

Yes that's a good explanation. 'Perception' that's fair enough, his perception of course. Which was what I was disagreeing to. Communists may can be compared to Libertarians in this way inside the US, but not worldwide.

No, I didn't think he was comparing ideolgy, I did read the article.


I don't think he said that.
They were just examples of a simplified view. on the left we have commies and the commies on the right are libertarians. Marxism being the kind of philosiphy it is cannot be the 'left' of something like libertarianism. Like saying the opposite of an apple is an orange. It's just a silly way for the author to discredit Libertarianism by mentioing it next to marxism, which is obviously hated by his right-wing audience.

El blanco, "the individual serving the group" is just a bad cliche. If you dissagree with my breaking down of Libertarianism, that's ok. I'll wait till one brings up the issue with me.

Jeanette X
Mar 7th, 2005, 11:34 PM
Zhukuv, I used to think that you were reasonably intelligent, now I think you are a bonehead. Even I can grasp the analogy. Of course Communism and Libertarianism come from entirely different premises! That's NOT THE FUCKING POINT!

The "Army of Gd" that blows up gay bars and abortion clinics comes from an entirely different premise than Al-Queda does. Does that mean that they cannot be compared? That the Army of Gd cannot be called the Al-Queda of Christianity, and vice versa? Both come from extreme views of two different religions. Communism and libertarianism come from extreme views of two different sides of the political spectrum, hence, they can be compared.

Can you wrap your brain around that?

Zhukov
Mar 7th, 2005, 11:46 PM
Well I don't believe in the common "political spectrum". Like I said to Kevin, I'm not saying that they are different, which they obiously are, I'm saying that they are complete different kinds of [/i]things[/i]. :/

You can't just say that something is on the oppisite side of 'the spectrum' sometimes. It's not as easy as that, it's not just about views or ideas.

and we're talking about Marxism, not communism.

"Maxism is the philosophical idea that the development of the means of production is ultimately the key to understanding the development of society. Specificaly that the process is dialectical, and not automatic, involving a contradiction between the demands of economic development and the inevitable lag in human consciousness, ideas, theories, institutions, morality, etc. "

wheras Libertarianism is capitalism with it's chains off (I'm sure someone can explain it better.

It's like saying that a chair and swimming are on oppiste ends of a spectrum. Kevin stated what the author was meaning and I submitted to that, ok? :/

Helm
Mar 8th, 2005, 09:50 AM
Go far left enough, and you end up on the right. This is true for communism, but not in that if you push it left enough it will become libertarianism. Rather, it will become a rigid class system with a gigantic state machine more similar to italian fascism than anything else. There is little to no way to go from actual marxism to libertarianism. There is, however, a way to go there through anarcho-communism (I'm thinking Cropotkin and Bakunin here, not the jerk in your school with the mohawk), but I'm pretty sure most people here agree anarchism is silly enough on it's own in most of it's popular incarnations, and could only be discussed as a possibility in it's Bakunin-incarnation only after communism is achieved, so as to not credit this connection very much. It's like someone being in place B on the map, and wanting to go to place A on the map, by wanting to create an interdimensional portal to take him there or something silly like that. Meaning, the faults of libertarianism cannot be connected with communism through anarchocommunism. I understand the article doesn't deal with that directly, but this thread does, so I offer my thoughts on this too.

Furthermore, I do not understand why Kevin said that a whole fraction of political thinking is undesirable in a whole country. I agree that a lot of people over there are communists because they hate their country (whereas I was a Marxist for a long while because I loved mine, and what I define myself as today isn't much different anyway), but does this fact completely discount the possibility that communists may indeed be right about a lot of things, and that the US would benefit from the influence of a strong communist party? EDIT: If Kevin ment that the author likens the STATUS of libertarianists to the status of communists in the US, then I misunderstood him. I believe though, that the author likens them with communists in meaning "communism is bad, so if libertarianism is like communism, it must be bad too."' This is further supported by the numerous times the author goes "just like marxism tried to pull that one on us" (paraphrasing), passively suggesting that marxists had some sort of nefarious plan of world domination through smokescreening and trickery.


And a lot of you should red Zhukov with a bit less of a bias, because it's insulting you to actually call him names over what he's saying (Jeanette), or resort to ad hominem attacks (so says the communist) like Kevin.

claiming that everything that is good is so because we choose to partake of it. Therefore freedom, by giving us choice, supposedly embraces all other goods. But this violates common sense by denying that anything is good by nature, independently of whether we choose it. Nourishing foods are good for us by nature, not because we choose to eat them. Taken to its logical conclusion, the reduction of the good to the freely chosen means there are no inherently good or bad choices at all, but that a man who chose to spend his life playing tiddlywinks has lived as worthy a life as a Washington or a Churchill.

Whereas one might dissagree with this line of thinking, it is not inherently falacious. In fact, the writer of this piece has a very warped understanding of 'good', and chooses, misleadingly enough, to use it in both an ethically descriptive, and perscriptive manner, going from the simple truth that "if you want to continue living, then food is good for you" to the totally moralistically imperative (and strangely neoplatonist) "There are things that are ethically good inherently" which anyone that has even the basic understanding of ethics, understands it as what it is: a fallacy of ethical universabilty. Food is "good", where "good" means "needed", within the institution where continued existence is an end in itself, whereas 'things are inherently ethically good' really means "I believe there are things which everyone should always do, in any context" which is an ethical prescriptive statement. Either the writer doesn't understand ethics, or he chooses not to use his knowledge of them to paint his warped point.

libertarians say it should be permitted because if someone doesn’t like it, he can choose not to view it. But what he can’t do is choose not to live in a culture that has been vulgarized by it.

Tough shit. This is rediculous. This argument goes right back to censorship, and to that I only have to say that real life is the osmosis of all things that exist, permitted or not, and putting your head (or worse, your child's head) in the sand whenever something you deem 'bad' comes along does not help anyone understand real life, and build up the necessary defenses to operate in it. What it does create, is people with an infantile, invented understanding of reality, that are prone to knee-jerk carpet-bomb other countries whenever reality chooses to barge in uninvited.


I could go on point by point on much he's saying (like the 'paradoxically enough, people exercise their freedom to not be libertarianists! OMG SELF-REFERENITAL FALLACY I ARES SMART!!11) but I really can't take this article seriously on the grounds that it uses incorrect terminology extensively, seems to have a silly bias ("if I prove it's like Marxism, we all agree that it's wrong!") and generally only superficially touches specific issues. Also, it's generally ment as a debunking of libertarianism, and it doesn't really interest me to play the devil's advocate extensively. Just wanted to point out that the writer either isn't very well-read on the subjects, or that he maliciously lies about them. I am not a libertarianist, and I do realize various holes in most libertarianist systems of belief, but that doesn't mean I have to agree to the series of rediculous claims anf faulty arguments the person that wrote this piece presents as if it's great knowledge, from his invented political and moral highground.

davinxtk
Mar 8th, 2005, 11:36 AM
I was going to mention something about how I was only half-way through the article and was already set to punch massive holes in his argument, but I think I'm going to cut it down to three words:


"What Helm said."

KevinTheOmnivore
Mar 8th, 2005, 09:02 PM
And a lot of you should red Zhukov with a bit less of a bias, because it's insulting you to actually call him names over what he's saying (Jeanette), or resort to ad hominem attacks (so says the communist) like Kevin.

Blow it out your ass you pompous jerk. Is that less of an ad hominem attack for you....?

I haven't dismissed Zhukov's beliefs. I did however dismiss what on his part was a terribly condescending and simplistic dismissal of Libertarianism. Then he went on to criticize the author for doing to Marxism precisely what he in fact did to Libertarianism.

What's amusing is that I thought this article might pull folks like Preechr and one and only out of the wood work, but instead, the socialists of the board have taken issue with the mere comparison. That's fine, but never did I intend to insult Zhukov.


libertarians say it should be permitted because if someone doesn’t like it, he can choose not to view it. But what he can’t do is choose not to live in a culture that has been vulgarized by it.

Tough shit. This is rediculous. This argument goes right back to censorship, and to that I only have to say that real life is the osmosis of all things that exist, permitted or not, and putting your head (or worse, your child's head) in the sand whenever something you deem 'bad' comes along does not help anyone understand real life, and build up the necessary defenses to operate in it. What it does create, is people with an infantile, invented understanding of reality, that are prone to knee-jerk carpet-bomb other countries whenever reality chooses to barge in uninvited.

Thank you for the sermon Sir, but I don't think you got the point. The author (while he undoubtedly probably is the censorship type) doesn't care about what you think about insulating our children from sex, violence, and generally naughty things. He's critiquing the Libertarian argument that freedom would lead to a general condition of overall goodness, that with this absolute freedom, ultimately, everyone would aspire to be sort of Bourgeois and sensible. He doesn't care about censorship, at least not in this article, but he knows that a lot of pseudo-libertarian Republicans in America DO in fact care about those things, but they've been duped by guys like Harry Browne into thinking that Libertarian freedom would result in a morally sound America (the Red-State kind of morality, yes).


but I really can't take this article seriously on the grounds that it uses incorrect terminology extensively, seems to have a silly bias ("if I prove it's like Marxism, we all agree that it's wrong!") and generally only superficially touches specific issues.

It was an incredibly brief piece. He had to write in abstracts and such, otherwise he'd probably be saying a whole lot that doesn't really say anything.


Go far left enough, and you end up on the right. This is true for communism, but not in that if you push it left enough it will become libertarianism. Rather, it will become a rigid class system with a gigantic state machine more similar to italian fascism than anything else. There is little to no way to go from actual marxism to libertarianism. There is, however, a way to go there through anarcho-communism (I'm thinking Cropotkin and Bakunin here, not the jerk in your school with the mohawk), but I'm pretty sure most people here agree anarchism is silly enough on it's own in most of it's popular incarnations, and could only be discussed as a possibility in it's Bakunin-incarnation only after communism is achieved, so as to not credit this connection very much. It's like someone being in place B on the map, and wanting to go to place A on the map, by wanting to create an interdimensional portal to take him there or something silly like that. Meaning, the faults of libertarianism cannot be connected with communism through anarchocommunism. I understand the article doesn't deal with that directly, but this thread does, so I offer my thoughts on this too.


Lord, speaking of saying a whole lot without really saying a damn thing.....

Communism doesn't have to be the polar opposite of Libertarianism in order for this guy to make his point. Perhaps this unfortunately excludes those living outside the U.S., but this guy is indeed speaking from a very American party system sort of position (the publication is after all called the "American Conservative"). And like I said before, a lot of it is about perception.

I hate to break it to the Greeks, and uh, Tanzanians, or whoever else is on this board, but Communism/Marxism/Socialism is all but dead in this country. I'm not trying to qualify that, I'm simply stating it as a relatively accurate reality. In writing this article, he isn't debating whether ideologically speaking Libertarianism is sort of like the American Right's Communism. The latter has already been dismissed and beaten in this country, but the former has gained a strange degree of appeal. According to the Libertarian Party, they are the fastest growing third party in the country (this is of course what every third party says, but with the recent decline of the Green Party, they may be right).

No third party has more elected officials at the grassroots level, and prominent pundits like Neal Boortz can comfortably call themselves at least "sort of Libertarian" and be accepted in Conservative Republican circles. This guy, obviously being a conservative, wants to point out why that shouldn't necessarily be the case (in fact, if you read the article carefully, a lot of his comparisons have more to do with Libertarian/Conservatism, rather than a comparison between Libertarianism and Marxism).

The center-left in this country has been forced to distance itself from Marxism. Heck, even the label of "liberal" hs become damaging. This guy's point is that Libertarianism hasn't been fully evaluated, and thus sort of gets a pass amongst conservatives (much like the accusations made against the Dems and the unions in the first half of the 20th century). I take it he thinks they deserve equal scrutiny.

Zhukov
Mar 9th, 2005, 12:21 AM
No offence was ever taken, Kevin. Yes, I dissmissed Libertarianism quite briefly, but I am not worried about it enough to warrant me bothering anymore. :/

Unless the Libertarian leaning Vince pops up, or something. Preechr indeed. You wanted Vince to show, didn't you?

KevinTheOmnivore
Mar 9th, 2005, 12:32 AM
There's never a time that I wouldn't want Vince here. ;)

Jeanette X
Mar 9th, 2005, 09:35 AM
Unless the Libertarian leaning Vince pops up, or something. Preechr indeed. You wanted Vince to show, didn't you?

I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of The One and Only, myself. :lol2

OAO Returns
Mar 18th, 2005, 06:36 PM
Maybe sometime in the future, I'll address this thread. For right now, though... I just don't have much free time anymore, and what I do have I don't feel like devoting to this.

And getting my account back would be nice.

Immortal Goat
Mar 18th, 2005, 10:51 PM
Hahaha, that OAO. You sly dog! What did you ever do to get banned, anyway? Was it just because you suck? I bet it was.

El Blanco
Mar 18th, 2005, 11:09 PM
Did you just post in this thread to say you didn't want to say anything?

OAO Returns
Mar 18th, 2005, 11:33 PM
I wasn't banned, I left.

And I was addressing Jeanette, actually.

El Blanco
Mar 19th, 2005, 12:56 AM
OK, pretend she asked the question.

Did you postin here to say you aren't going to say anything?

OAO Returns
Mar 19th, 2005, 01:00 AM
I posted in here to say that I might address it some other time, which was an apprioriate comment giving that Jeanette mentioned how she was eagerly awaiting my arrival.

El Blanco
Mar 19th, 2005, 01:13 AM
Hey, McGwire, thats a straight forward yes or no question. You're not running for office, just give me an answer.

OAO Returns
Mar 19th, 2005, 12:12 PM
Then no. I felt the need to elaborate.