Minutemen border patrol

[Carnivore]

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned.

I've never had any problems with people legally immigrating to America to work and improve their lives, but sneaking into the country, thus committing a felony immediately upon entry, is unacceptable in my eyes. Illegal immigrants should be sent back to their country of origin without a hearing.

I'm sure most of you have heard about the so-called Minutemen who have volunteered to help the US Border Patrol to prevent illegals from crossing. I very much agree with the spirit of the project, though I think it's sad that it's necessary to have private citizens secure our border when the government should be. I do see possible setbacks with certain types of people joining these Minutemen, such as the possibility of some racist joining so he can attempt to kill a Mexican and justify it, but thus far the project seems to be succeeding in its goal without any major incidents.

So, what do you all think about this?

[Chojin]

Wasn't JBL originally doing this?

[Carnivore]

I must confess, I've not been keeping up with my WWE recently.

I'm a failure.

[ziggytrix]

Of what I've heard, every law officer has said that these people are just getting in the way.

Also, if you send em back without a hearing, how do you know they were illegals? That's kinda a bad idea, IMO.

[Carnivore]

You would know immediately because legal immigrants have documentation.

[Chojin]

Besides, even if you send a few innocents back, all they have to do is run through the desert and push through the gauntlet of American Gladiators to return to FREEDOM.

[Carnivore]

Anybody who can survive "The Eliminator" should be immediately made a citizen! Those are the kind of people we want!

[AngPur]

You would know immediately because legal immigrants have documentation.

"Show us ze papers."

Could you prove you're a legal resident upon request right now?

I find the only people who speak fondly of the minutemen are usually xenophobes or racists. Vigilanties could be put to better work, like bounty hunting or similar, instead of making sure I don't have to ride a bus with José. Heaven forbid! Next he might (gasp!) cut my lawn too!

[Anathema]

They need to keep the border free of these illegals. If they want to get into the country they can go through the proper channels. If the government isn’t going to keep the borders safe, then it might as well be some gung ho patriotic people who want to do the thankless job.

[rockets redglare]

Fucking mexicans aint even brave enough to deal with the government

[Carnivore]

Could you prove you're a legal resident upon request right now?

Yes. It's called a driver's license. If they run it, they'll see that I am. Everyone carries some form of ID on them... or should.

[El Blanco]

Also, if you send em back without a hearing, how do you know they were illegals? That's kinda a bad idea, IMO.


Well, if they are swimming the Rio Grade and cutting a whole in the fence rather than just going throught the chekpoints, thats a pretty big clue.

I can sympathise with their feelings and illegal immigration is a huge problem, especially in the border states. However, I get kind of nervous thinking this just might turn into vigilante justice.


And I found this (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2005/04/21/BAGGGCCIHG1.DTL&o=0)

[Carnivore]

Dear God, she must've been preparing for this hunger strike for a while! She got at least one month of food stored in her haunches alone!

[AngPur]

Yes. It's called a driver's license. If they run it, they'll see that I am.

And one typically travels around the Rio Grande in a sedan? All pedestrians, non-library goers and whatnot now are not Americans?

Vigilantism is often incompatible with due process.

[Carnivore]

You're being ridiculous. I'm not saying that anyone caught without an ID on their person should be summarily tossed out. People should be given a chance to prove they're either citizens or here legally. If they can't, however, that get the boot. It's that simple.

[ziggytrix]

Well, if they are swimming the Rio Grade and cutting a whole in the fence rather than just going throught the chekpoints, thats a pretty big clue.

I'm not talkin about people caught attempting to enter the country, I'm talking about anyone in the country with brown skin. How bout a hypothetical 15 year old son of legal immigrants, who unfortunately doesn't have a drivers license, doesn't speak English, and can't prove he's a legal citizen on the spot. Should he be arrested on suspicion of being an illegal immigrant? Deported if his parents can't come up with his birth certificate? Wait, if there's no hearing, they don't even get the chance to provide his birth certificate! See what I'm getting at here?


I can sympathise with their feelings and illegal immigration is a huge problem, especially in the border states. However, I get kind of nervous thinking this just might turn into vigilante justice.

Even more nerve-wreaking, what happens when the first group of these people catches automatic weapons fire from drug smugglers? It's a very real danger that these people are not even remotely prepared to handle.

[pissed off salesman]

I think that I have the same problem as Carnivore, it's not that some people want to do a job to help their country, but that some racist prick will join just to justify murder, and be considered a "hero" for it.

[AngPur]

People should be given a chance to prove they're either citizens or here legally.

We call that a court date. :)

[Anathema]

So what if they do? Hey they take their chances by trying to sneak over the border. I doubt if anyone’s going to be labeled a hero, the fucking ACLU or whatever other liberal organization will be all over it if some illegal gets a skinned knee let alone killed.

[Emu]

GRRR, LIBERALS >: >: >:

[Chojin]

Yeah, if it was up to red-blooded Americans like me we'd make that border fence electric and deport all the homos to mexico so they can't depress the rest of us. WHO IS WITH ME!

[El Blanco]

I'm not talkin about people caught attempting to enter the country, I'm talking about anyone in the country with brown skin. How bout a hypothetical 15 year old son of legal immigrants, who unfortunately doesn't have a drivers license, doesn't speak English, and can't prove he's a legal citizen on the spot. Should he be arrested on suspicion of being an illegal immigrant? Deported if his parents can't come up with his birth certificate? Wait, if there's no hearing, they don't even get the chance to provide his birth certificate! See what I'm getting at here?




Well, are these guys just patroling the border or are they going through the towns hunting illegals? Because if its the former, your hypothetical really doesn't apply.

And in my experience, that 15 year old would have a better grasp of English than the parents. And isn't a birth certificate something you really need? How does he enroll in school?

[Chojin]

There are plenty of places in the US that are non-english-speaking zones; Just because someone is born here doesn't mean they speak the language.

And they'd theoretically have a birth certificate unless they were not delivered in a hospital, which is probably the case for people fearing deportation.

[El Blanco]

But wouldn't they need that to enroll the kid in school? Or any other basic service we are entitled to?

[Chojin]

There are also spanish-only schools. Not that they'd NEED to enroll them in that, either.

Just take like, a minute to think this out before you start asking me questions like I'm the Mexican authority. It's just common sense.

[El Blanco]

Common sense is crap. I hate when people use that as an argument. It used to be common sense that the world is flat.

Have you seen these schools? Is there an article somewhere about them, or do you just assume they exist because it makes sense to you? I've seen schools here in wich most of the students and teachers spoke Spanish, or whatever happened to be the first language of the neighborhood, the the students still had to learn English.

So, just take a minute before you just start pulling facts out of your ass.


And it still doesn't answer my question as to are the minutemen going around looking for illegals. Because, if they were, I think this would be a much bigger story.

[ItalianStereotype]

the minutemen gather in hotspots for illegal border crossing and, when spotting illegal immigrants, they call INS. there's no dramatic gunfights and the whole thing is monitored by the ACLU. in fact, there was a whole issue a lil while back that the ACLU observers were smoking smuggled mexican weed while going about their duties.

[Ant10708]

The Minutemen have already declined offers from racist groups to join. And they aren't vigilantes who every said that. They aren't doing anything illegal. And how are they getting in the border patrol's way? They stand and survey the area with fucking binoculars and call in the BP when they spot illegals crossing.

Also I think most people are for allowing illegals already here to stay and become documented but that doesn't mean we should continue to allow millions to cross over illegally. Why is it that people who want a secure border with legal immigration accused of being racists? I just thought it was 'common sense' ;) to be agaisnt having a ton of undocumnted people just enter and live in the country.

[ItalianStereotype]

I just said that :<

[Carnivore]

Why should we allow illegals to stay here if they're established? They're felons!

[Ant10708]

I know but the people on the other side of the arguement got to repeat their 'Only racists want to secure the border.' points so I thought I'd reinforce your stance.

[Ant10708]

We allow them to stay here because it is very difficult to gather up people who are already living in the country undocumented. You might as well allow them to become legal so they can start to pay taxes and become citizens. And for all the people who are for the millions crossing the border don't you think its unfair to the people doing it legally and having to wait years. My dad owns a car shop and most of his workers from the Middle East all went through the process or are going through it and now they are legitmate citizens and can legally bring their family over once they become legal. I'm not sure if Pakistan has a worse economy than Mexico but I mean he made sacrfices so he could bring his family here legally.

Oh and about the driver's license proving you are legal. Can't you get a driver's license in some states even if you're not a citizen? They just don't ask you any questions so they have no idea if you are illegal or legal.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Is a duel policy of amnesty/naturalization of all current working illegals, matched with a stricter border policy out of the question?

I for one think what the minutemen are doing is great. It's great to see Americans fucking care about something important. I also understand the impulse to cross the border, and the softy liberal in me wishes we could take them all.

But we can't, and it's a threat to our security. It's time to tighten our belts a bit, IMO. That means you too, Canada!

[Chojin]

Common sense is crap.
From this point forward, I will believe everything you say without question.

Have you seen these schools? Is there an article somewhere about them, or do you just assume they exist because it makes sense to you? I've seen schools here in wich most of the students and teachers spoke Spanish, or whatever happened to be the first language of the neighborhood, the the students still had to learn English.
You know, believe it or not, it's a human instinct to educate your young. Them injuns do it on their reservations, too. I haven't personally attended these schools. I can't cite where I've heard or read about it, either, but I can guarantee that it happened and didn't 'look into it' because it wasn't an unbelievable scenario. You know, I can also assure you that I have bought a doughnut in the past, but I can't seem to find the documentation anymore. I hope you'll take my word for it.

And it still doesn't answer my question as to are the minutemen going around looking for illegals. Because, if they were, I think this would be a much bigger story.
It probably didn't answer your question because I didn't talk about that.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

The Minutemen have already declined offers from racist groups to join.

Well, to my understanding, this isn't entirely true. Supposedly they had the head of some racist group flying a plane for them, doing air cover. They argue that he isn't a member of the group, but he's a "friend" or something to the group. I think the fact that he's offering a free plane also helps.

[thebiggameover]

i live in arizona, and i am totaly for this. lots of people cross the border so they can get better jobs, and thats cool...

but some cross becasue they know if they commit any crime other than rape and or murder, there just gonna get sent back to mexico so they can cross and do i again....

and shit has been going down around here with smugglers, who bring people accross, then hold there family hostage untill they can pay the "fee". like, every week on the news here, you hear about some drop house getting busted, and 50 people are found in a 3 bedroom house. there was also a freeway shooting of rival smugglers that killed all the people in one van. i think there was like 10 people in it or something. ill try to find the link....


anyway, the minuteman thing has stoped a lot of people crossing here in az, but i guess there going to new mexico now or something...

[thebiggameover]

links

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0429DropHouse29-ON.html

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0504calif-border04-ON.html

http://www.phoenix360.com/news/morenews/index.asp?did=16046

http://www.phoenix360.com/news/morenews/index.asp?did=10743

damn, i cant find the freeway shooting link...

[Ant10708]

You're just a racist!

[Rez]

i dont really know enough about it to say yay or nay.

the irrational liberal that reads too much sci-fi says that being paranoid about illegals is missing out on how ludicrous the concept of a national border is on this earth.

the part thats not as clever as it thinks it is says that illegals merely employ a form of capitalism (the same rationale scalpers use, incidentally) in competing for jobs by accepting low wages and us americans cant HANDLE that.

but then, realistically, theyre coming to america, and if it would be really so much of a struggle, they could realize that that they've alreay broken a law of the land by breaking in here, and shouldnt be surprised that they dont get drivers licenses, much less get deported.

though it is a bummer that being illegals prevents them from seeking proper health care and other social services, it shouldnt be expected that this country gives breaks to people who dont make the effort to be LEGAL in the US.

on the other hand though, they do provide a level of class (and poverty) that allows them to do the jobs most of us dont or wont, and in an increasing population, that should be valued more.

but now i'm just being an asshole.

so yeah, minutemen, theyre being watched like hawks, so off with them if violences are commited, but if it's just a bunch of jobless flag-wavers radioing to patrol, then whatever.

[FS]

I can never put much faith in this type of citizens for justice schtuff. Whatever good intentions there are, I think for most of them it eventually boils down to a feeling of power. Mighty me has the right to grab foreign you by the collar. Not saying, of course, that cops never get off on their position of power, but at least if you've made the choice to become a cop and trained for it, there's a lot less chance of it happening.

[Deadsy]

I can also assure you that I have bought a doughnut in the past, but I can't seem to find the documentation anymore. I hope you'll take my word for it.

http://pittsburghlive.com/photos/2005-01-25/0126mitch-b.jpg

[Chojin]

neva forget

[ziggytrix]

If ordinary Americans want to have a hand in solving this problem, then they should leave the lawn chairs in the garage and pressure their representatives in Congress to crack down on employers and shut down the job magnet that draws illegal immigrants here in the first place. They should protest outside the headquarters of companies that have a record of hiring illegal immigrants and boycott their products and services. And they should pressure city councils to pass ordinances that levy stiff fines on the casual user, those motorists who pull over to the curb to hire day laborers waiting on street corners.

Granted, none of this is as sexy as storming up and down the border in fatigues and carrying night scopes and walkie-talkies. But it's bound to pay bigger returns.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/05/05/EDGP7CJHG81.DTL

[El Blanco]

But those are already employed. Immigration is a huge issue in California. This is a new tactic they are using to get more attention and apply more pressure.

Do you guys putting them down also laugh at neighborhood watch groups?

[Rez]

pretty much, since it's old ladies nosing in eveybody's affairs like they're british or something.

*look out your window in a way thats inconspicuous but tells everyboy you're an idiot looking for something ILLEGAL. find something that just frightens you and CALL THE POLICE*

*look out your window in a way thats inconspicuous but tells everyboy you're an idiot looking for something ILLEGAL. find something that just frightens you and CALL THE POLICE*

*look out your window in a way thats inconspicuous but tells everyboy you're an idiot looking for something ILLEGAL. find something that just frightens you and CALL THE POLICE*

again... and AGAIN.

[ziggytrix]

There’s no denying that some kind of deterrent is taking place along the Arizona-Mexico border. In April 2004, according to Zortman, the Border Patrol made a total of 27,594 apprehensions in the 87-mile long Naco-Douglas border area, a portion of which was patrolled by the Minutemen. This April, apprehensions in that same area dropped to 11,482, including the 1,327 that were a result of citizen phone calls.

The reduction in apprehensions is “definitely not [attributed] to any citizens on the border,” Zortman said. Instead, she said that Border Patrol programs both this year and last intended to permanently beef up patrol efforts, resulted in fewer attempts to illegally cross the border. In addition, Zortman said a strong presence “on the south side” from Mexican military and law enforcement is helping a great deal.

Border Patrol officials dismiss any notion that the Minuteman presence in April was anything other an occasional nuisance, including setting off more than 200 false alerts from motion sensors as they tread too close to the border, Zortman said.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7725470/

[El Blanco]

Oh please. The Mexican government has been assisting people who try and cross the border.

And the border patrol has not been that beefed up.

Granted, it probably has less to do with the what the MM have actually done than it does with the myth of what they do. How many people on this side of the border, with the better media coverage and actual MM websites and ACLU overseers have accused the MM of going around with guns looking to nail some unfortunate fool jumping the border?

Imagine whats going around down there.

[AngPur]

I love how Ahnuld tries to blame border crossings on the federal government, when obviously the state itself should be working on efforts to secure the borders too.

If all they do is call the authorities, why do they need firearms?

[Ant10708]

They don't need firearms and not all of them have them. I think in Arizona you can carry a gun around your waist without a permit. As far as I can see them having a gun is more legal and less of a problem than millions of undocumented people coming and living in our country.

[thebiggameover]

I think in Arizona you can carry a gun around your waist without a permit.

yep. you just need to prove that the gun is yours...

[Ant10708]

That is a strange rule.

[ziggytrix]

Oh please. The Mexican government has been assisting people who try and cross the border.

And the border patrol has not been that beefed up.

Oh, OK, I guess the border patrol rep I quoted up there was just lying. I'll take your word over hers. :rolleyes

[AngPur]

Oh please. The Mexican government has been assisting people who try and cross the border.

Define 'assist'. We saved a little Cuban boy from drowing with a leaky raft a few years back, is that a case of corrupt government assisting foreigners?

I mean, you do realize you are dissing the federales too, right? If any police force in the world is prone to take suspects in for a heavy handed beatdown of an interegation, you can rest assured they'lll be shouting Espanol at you.

[El Blanco]

By assist I mean actually publishing literature on how to properly jump the border and what to do in case you are caught.

Or how about not doing a goddamned thing to change the situation there that causes people to want to risk the journey?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

By assist I mean actually publishing literature on how to properly jump the border and what to do in case you are caught.

I recall it being a pretty amusing comic book, too.

[Ant10708]

Now that you defined 'assist' let's see what ang's next response is. Exciting.
The comic is on the Mexican government's website. http://www.sre.gob.mx/tramites/consulares/guiamigrante/page1.htm

They aren't assisting the illegal immigration at all, sure :lol


'In December the Mexican government officially released a comic book that sanctions illegal aliens crossing our southern border. They claim it is to help migrant worker with the title The Guide for the Mexican Migrant, but upon viewing the comic book it shows illegal aliens crossing the Rio Grande, trapsing through Arizona,avoiding border patrol agents and instructs them on how to hide in American society so they aren't caught.'

This is on the last page of the comic: 'This consular protection guide is not promoting the crossing [of the border] of Mexicans without legal documentation required by the government of the United States; its objective is to make known the risks implied and to inform about the rights of migrants regardless of their legal residence.' :lol

It's like when you buy a water bong in a shop with all marijuana merchandise and it says 'For Tobbacco Use Only'

[Ant10708]

I hope the Vatican makes a comic book to show priests how to avoid getting caught molesting altar boys.



... Mexico's foreign ministry said the booklet was an attempt to save lives and inform migrants of the legal consequences of entering the United States.

"Last year over 300 Mexicans died in their attempt to enter the United States in search of a job and the government has the obligation to avoid that," Geronimo Gutierrez, the ministry's undersecretary for North American affairs told Reuters.

"The guide clearly states that the safe and appropriate way to enter any country is with a valid passport and a visa, and in no way promotes undocumented immigration," he added.

The official said some 1.5 million copies of the pamphlet had been distributed to several states in central Mexico with high migration rates.



Urrea, author of "The Devil's Highway," a book about 14 Mexicans who died crossing the Arizona desert in 2001, said the guide will revive the debate about whether Mexico has any real intention of stopping illegal border crossing.

Urrea said Mexican officials know all too well that their nation needs the billions of dollars sent home by immigrants from the United States each year.

"My gut feeling is that Mexico is happy to benefit from the money coming back from Skokie and all these places," Urrea said. "Every single warning that I know of from the Mexican government doesn't say, `Don't do it.' It says, `Watch out.'"

[AngPur]

Now that you defined 'assist' let's see what ang's next response is. Exciting.

Telling them to drink water in the desert and not carry weapons? THOSE DASTARDS!

Nice double post, btw.

[El Blanco]

And the best places to cross.

And how to duck patrols.

Little things like that.

[Ant10708]

Now that you defined 'assist' let's see what ang's next response is. Exciting.

Telling them to drink water in the desert and not carry weapons? THOSE DASTARDS!

Nice double post, btw. Nice arguement by the way.

[Mr. Oysterhead]

I love you all so much.

[El Blanco]

WASHINGTON (AP) The Homeland Security Department will assign more than 500 additional patrol agents to the porous Arizona border, saying they will help keep potential terrorists and illegal immigrants from entering the country, The Associated Press has learned.

The border buildup was to be announced Wednesday - two days before civilian volunteers with the so-called Minuteman Project begin a monthlong Arizona patrol against immigrants crossing the U.S.-Mexico line.




Well, it looks like the only reason there is even a minute increase in border patrols is because the MM tweaked the government into action.

[AngPur]

Nice arguement by the way.

It doesn't really matter. If these jobless smucks want to play war in the desert it's their own business. I also suppose in the end it reduces the number of cases where a Mexican assualts an American and burglarizes him out of employment.

[El Blanco]

Who said they were jobless? I don't know about you, but I only work 8 hours a day (sometimes more if the shit hits the fan). That leaves me time to pursue other things.

Maybe these guys are retirees who already paid their dues.

Do you feel better when people are discouraged from making a life threatening journey that violates federal law? About wasting time and money on more federal agents and bereacrats that have to arrest these people or give them aid and services when they don't pay taxes?

How about bringing more attention to a place that also is an access point for weapons. narcotics and various forms of criminals?

Ordinary citizens taking part in their own protection. You do realize thats what this country was founded on, right?

[Ant10708]

Just a bunch of jobless slave owners I say. Don't even get me started on volunteer firemen.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Who said they were jobless? I don't know about you, but I only work 8 hours a day (sometimes more if the shit hits the fan). That leaves me time to pursue other things.

Maybe these guys are retirees who already paid their dues.

From what I've gathered, many of the seem to be mid-level type professionals and your typical 9 to 5ers. I know that one of the organization's heads is using up his vacation time doing this.

[AngPur]

Maybe these guys are retirees who already paid their dues.

Then jobless would still be an appropriate description.

Do you feel better when people are discouraged from making a life threatening journey that violates federal law? About wasting time and money on more federal agents and bereacrats that have to arrest these people or give them aid and services when they don't pay taxes?

No, believe it or not, some of us don't have wet dreams about driving around miles of desert with our pick-up truck and Dale Ernhart rememberance sticker while playing war upon the Mexican fence hoppers.

If these people want to uphold laws, they are more than welcome to attempt to join their police or other law enforcement agencies.

Also, law enforcement cannot be accurately called bureaucrats, unless you're just a complete anarchist who thinks all the 'pigs' are out to get you.

How about bringing more attention to a place that also is an access point for weapons. narcotics and various forms of criminals?

Can we hire them to keep an eye on trailer parks to for the same reasons?

Ordinary citizens taking part in their own protection. You do realize thats what this country was founded on, right?

Silly me, I thought this nation was founded upon immigration, legal or not. But no, you are right. The poem at the base of the statue of liberty is just for show. We don't give a rat's ass about outsiders. America formed out of respect for the law. We didn't say 'eff you' to the king and encourage expansion or anything. Also, we certainly didn't give a fuck about due process or law and order. Nope, when our founding fathers penned 'a well regulated milita' into the second amendment, they meant a bunch of Nascar dads who have nothing better to do than guard a random bit of border.

What are they doing about the wide open Canadian border? Or do we not care if the nation bordering us contains mostly caucasians?

[El Blanco]

Actually, respect for the law is a part of it. We just expect the law to respect us back. Our concept of the law is to protect individual rights and allow hard working people to live their lives as they see fit without harming each other.

And how many Canadians are crossing illegally?

Then jobless would still be an appropriate description.

No, retired and jobless slobs are two different things.

No, believe it or not, some of us don't have wet dreams about driving around miles of desert with our pick-up truck and Dale Ernhart rememberance sticker while playing war upon the Mexican fence hoppers.

So you have a wet dream about cheap immigrant labor cleaning your floors.

If these people want to uphold laws, they are more than welcome to attempt to join their police or other law enforcement agencies.


So they can be held down by red tape and quotas? Kind of defeats the point.

Can we hire them to keep an eye on trailer parks to for the same reasons?

If the residents of said trailer parks want to form their own volunteer watch groups, more power to them. As long as they work within the confines of the law and work with the law enforcement professionals.

[AngPur]

Our concept of the law is to protect individual rights and allow hard working people to live their lives as they see fit without harming each other.

Assuming said hard working individuals were born on this soil.

No, retired and jobless slobs are two different things.

I didn't say jobless slobs. I just said jobless, meaning without a current place of employment. My point was these people have a wee bit too much time on their hands.

So you have a wet dream about cheap immigrant labor cleaning your floors.

Of course, because if you don't rabidly want the Mexicans to stay in their own nation, you must have 50 working for you. Brilliant logic. I have yet to be mugged on the street by a Mexican who runs away with my job.

If these people want to uphold laws, they are more than welcome to attempt to join their police or other law enforcement agencies.

So they can be held down by red tape and quotas? Kind of defeats the point.

So then why have any police at all if armed retirees do it better? We might as well just abolish police forces.

Like I said before, if the Minute men want to play cops/war in the desert, that's there thing, but don't expect everyone to have a raging hard-on for them like you do.

[Ant10708]

When did looking through binoculars and calling the border patrol become playing war/cops?

And about the Candaian border. I am for a secure Mexican and Canadian border because both can be used very easily by islamofacists who want to blow up some buildings. But I mean you have to start someplace and why would you start up near Canada where the problem is not nearly as bad.

[El Blanco]

Our concept of the law is to protect individual rights and allow hard working people to live their lives as they see fit without harming each other.

Assuming said hard working individuals were born on this soil.

Actually, if we are goijng by the Founding Fathers, assuming its a white, land owning male born on this soil.



I didn't say jobless slobs. I just said jobless, meaning without a current place of employment.

Ang said they were jobless smucks. Missfire.

My point was these people have a wee bit too much time on their hands.

Why? Because they persue an activity you choose to generalize?



Of course, because if you don't rabidly want the Mexicans to stay in their own nation, you must have 50 working for you. Brilliant logic.

Its no less brilliant than assuming all the MM were gun toting NASCAR loving unemployed rednecks who hate minorities. Turn about is fair play.

I have yet to be mugged on the street by a Mexican who runs away with my job.

Check your next income tax statement.


So then why have any police at all if armed retirees do it better? We might as well just abolish police forces.

Who said they were armed? And you do realize that the MM are working in conjunction with the authorities, not against them, right? Because if you have gathered otherwise, even after all the articles and such presented here and throughout the media, I'd have to assume you are either willfully stupid or just plain retarded.

Like I said before, if the Minute men want to play cops/war in the desert, that's there thing, but don't expect everyone to have a raging hard-on for them like you do.

They are not playing cops/war in the desert.

And I don't have a raging hard on like you do for trying to put down people who think differently from you.

[AngPur]

Ang said they were jobless smucks. Missfire.

Well of course they are not literally foreskins.

I have yet to be mugged on the street by a Mexican who runs away with my job.

Check your next income tax statement.

Oops. You're racist. (http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart)

Who said they were armed?

They don't need firearms and not all of them have them.

And you do realize that the MM are working in conjunction with the authorities, not against them, right?

Which is why I asked why they shouldn't just try to join the authorities themselves.

[El Blanco]

Oops. You're racist. (http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart)




1) Maddox is a hack. He is a whining little pussy who cries about people playing their radio in a public fucking park. Anything that is remotly funny (and there isn't much) on his site is done better somewhere else. Grow up and learn what "funny" actually is.

2) Are you telling me we don't spend billions on services and enforcement on illegal aliens?

3) Do you know what racist means?

4) Oops, you're a retard.




Which is why I asked why they shouldn't just try to join the authorities themselves.

Because this how they are spending their free time. Its not their livelyhood.

Also, there is a long process to becoming a law enforcement official and these guys are really just trying to draw more attention to the problem.

Why don't you bother Max or Kevin on why they don't become professional activists?

[thebiggameover]

AngPur- have you ever been here to arizona?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Why don't you bother Max or Kevin on why they don't become professional activists?

I need some scrilla first.

[AngPur]

1) Maddox is a hack.

That doesn't mean he's incorrect on this. Try looking up what an 'ad hominem attack' is. :)

2) Are you telling me we don't spend billions on services and enforcement on illegal aliens?

Are you telling me they do rob you of jobs?

3) Do you know what racist means?

Prejudice or prejudiced actions based on race. Many understand that racial profiling on, say, the highway is indeed racism, despite the fact that the offenders are still breaking the law. Sound familiar?

That's not to say I'm calling them racist. I'm calling you racist. You seem to associate illegal aliens with Mexicans, who apparently are raising your taxes and bringing drugs and crime into America.

Many illegal aliens, though, are not Mexicans. That's not to comment on percentages, granted, but still. If you want to keep José out because his being here illegaly irks you, fine. If you don't care about the Russian guy whose student visa just ran out though, it seems like you have something against Mexicans.

4) Oops, you're a retard.

Gadzooks! I've been called a retard on the internet? How can I ever defend myself from my witty, intellectual superior?

Which is why I asked why they shouldn't just try to join the authorities themselves.

Because this how they are spending their free time. Its not their livelyhood.

Then I'm going to give the credit for any arrests to the professionals. It's not bad that these guys are nosey citizens, but likewise it's hardly commendable.

Why don't you bother Max or Kevin on why they don't become professional activists?

HUR HUR I'm going to deflect this guy's attention by mentioning two other forumers I disagree with! HUR HUR

AngPur- have you ever been here to arizona?

Have you ever been to Turkey? What the hell does location matter? Are you asking me if I know what a Mexican is? Yes, we have them in other states too, believe it or not.

[Ant10708]

I'm studying to be an accountant so honestly the last thing I'm worried about is an illegal immigrant stealing my job.

[Carnivore]

Why should people who take the time and effort to legally immigrate to the United States be treated the same as people who feloniously jump the border? Isn't that unfair to the people who do it the right way?

Why don't all the Minutemen become Border Patrol officers? Because they'd have to be paid for that. They're volunteering time to assist paid officers. Maybe if they diverted some funds from programs that benefit illegals they could expand the Border Patrol, though. There's an idea!

[El Blanco]

1) Maddox is a hack.

That doesn't mean he's incorrect on this. Try looking up what an 'ad hominem attack' is. :)

It certainly doesn't make him any type of authority on the subject. In fact, you tried to appeal to some outside authority( another ed herring in debating) as if it would make a difference in the argument. You even tried to throw out the "r" word as if I'm going to back off, even though it just doesn't apply here.


Are you telling me they do rob you of jobs?



I'm looking....looking.....looking....nope I never said that.

Prejudice or prejudiced actions based on race.

I'm basing my arguments based on actions not race.

Many understand that racial profiling on, say, the highway is indeed racism, despite the fact that the offenders are still breaking the law. Sound familiar?

Sure, but there is a huge difference in stopping a car full of black guys because they are black and stopping people coming from Mexico because they are jumping the border illegally.

That's not to say I'm calling them racist. I'm calling you racist.

And I'm calling you a moron.

You seem to associate illegal aliens with Mexicans, who apparently are raising your taxes and bringing drugs and crime into America.

Wow, that is completly not what I said.

Did I say all illegal immigrants are Mexican? No

Did I say all people here from Mexican families are illegal aliens? No

What did I say?

I said that there is a huge problem with illegal aliens along the Mexican border. Are you denying this?

I said that the Mexican border is also a big access point for guns narcotics etc etc. This is also a fact.

Many illegal aliens, though, are not Mexicans.

No shit. There are Chinese illegals, Irish illegals Russian illegals etc etc etc

That's not to comment on percentages, granted, but still.

So you are saying the majority of illagal immigrants are Mexican? Oops, you're a reacist....and still a retard.

If you want to keep José out because his being here illegaly irks you, fine. If you don't care about the Russian guy whose student visa just ran out though, it seems like you have something against Mexicans.

When did I say that? Please, point that out. In fact, I often complain about my old neighborhood that has hundreds of Irish that come here on vacation and never go back.

I'd rather see "Jose" naturalized and pay taxes and have proper protection under the law, but that can't be done if he sneaks in here illegally.



Gadzooks! I've been called a retard on the internet? How can I ever defend myself from my witty, intellectual superior?

The difference between you and I is that you called me a racist without really understanding the word and thought it would get me to back down. I called you a retard because you keep proving yourself to be one.



Then I'm going to give the credit for any arrests to the professionals. It's not bad that these guys are nosey citizens, but likewise it's hardly commendable.

So people who help the police catch criminals are doing something wrong?

I'll admit, it is our civic duty, but you seem to be putting them down.



HUR HUR I'm going to deflect this guy's attention by mentioning two other forumers I disagree with! HUR HUR

No, I'm using other forum members who are active and vocal on these boards as examples.

Its a hell of a lot better than trying to reference Maddox. MADDOX FOR CHRIST FUKING SAKE! WHAT ARE YOU 14?

[El Blanco]

Why don't you bother Max or Kevin on why they don't become professional activists?

I need some scrilla first.

And pitchouli. Don't forget the pitchouli.

[ziggytrix]

Supervisors at the Border Patrol's Tucson sector office did not support the project, saying it disrupted operations, unnecessarily tripped sensors and had little or no impact on the flow of illegal aliens.

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20050508-115751-9693r.htm

Gross explained that on March 23, when asked by a reporter about his view of people "hunting" migrants along the border, Bush simply said he was opposed to "vigilantes in the United States of America."

Bush later added: "I'm for enforcing the law in a rational way; that's why you have a Border Patrol and they ought to be in charge of enforcing the border."

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0428minuteman-dc28.html

According to a Southern Poverty Law Center report, on April 2, the Minuteman Project "held a protest across the street from the U.S. Border Patrol headquarters in Naco, Ariz. Prominent among the demonstrators were two men who confided that they were members of the Phoenix chapter of the National Alliance . . . the largest neo-Nazi group in America. One of the two, who sat in lawn chairs throughout, held a sign with arrows depicting invading armies of people from Mexico—a sign identical to National Alliance billboards and pamphlets, except without the Alliance logo."

During the run-up to the demonstration, Shaun Walker, a National Alliance official told a reporter that they weren't "going to show up as a group and say, 'Hi, we're the National Alliance.' But we have members . . . that will participate."

"In fact," the SPLC reported, "National Alliance pamphlets were distributed in Tombstone and [Naco], this predominantly Hispanic community just two days before the Minuteman Project got going. 'Non-Whites are turning America into a Third World slum,' they read. 'They come for welfare or to take our jobs. Let's send them home now.'"

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Media/051005Berkowitz/051005berkowitz.html

the whole thing is really quite hilarious

[El Blanco]

Supervisors at the Border Patrol's Tucson sector office did not support the project, saying it disrupted operations, unnecessarily tripped sensors and had little or no impact on the flow of illegal aliens.

Except for the documented increase in apprehensions followed by a decrease in sightings of illegals along that area.

Gross explained that on March 23, when asked by a reporter about his view of people "hunting" migrants along the border, Bush simply said he was opposed to "vigilantes in the United States of America."

Bush later added: "I'm for enforcing the law in a rational way; that's why you have a Border Patrol and they ought to be in charge of enforcing the border."

Oh ya, those aren't loaded statements. Who is "hunting" immigrants? Hell, I don't want that either.

I believe we've addressed the word "vigilantes".

The Border Patrol is in charge of enforcement. No one is denying that. Ordinary citizens are doing their civic duty and assisting them.

As for the racists in there: What can I say? Any large gathering is going to attract idiots and assholes.

Does that mean that all anti-war protestors were actually siding with the people there who were speaking favorably of Ossama bin Laden and Kim Jong Il?

No, it means some assholes decided it was a chance to get their message mixed in with some geniunly decent folks who were trying to do some good.

[ziggytrix]

Except for the documented increase in apprehensions followed by a decrease in sightings of illegals along that area.

Yeah, I'm sure that had nothing to do with the 500 agent increase in Border Patrol personel that month and everything to do with civilians setting off motion detectors and disrupting Border Patrol operations. :rolleyes

[El Blanco]

The extra guards were for the borde rpatrol in general, not that speciffic area. And it was in direct response to the news on the MM a week before they had begun.

[ziggytrix]

OK. I guess I shouldn't listen to anything those lying Border Patrol officials say. I keep forgetting, sorry!

[Zebra 3]

I'm studying to be an accountant so honestly the last thing I'm worried about is an illegal immigrant stealing my job.
:) - Right you are. You may eventually lose your job to either a legal immigrant or have the entire goddamn accounting dept. outsourced to another country.

[El Blanco]

OK. I guess I shouldn't listen to anything those lying Border Patrol officials say. I keep forgetting, sorry!

So, you trust government people at their word even when the evidence says otherwise?

Or is it just when it suits you?

[GAsux]

I saw a special on 48 Hours or something like that about human trafficing across the border, particularly from TJ to San Diego. It was about the sex slave trade. If you're against hot Russian chicks being smuggled into American to hump, albeit illegally, then I hate you.

I'd much rather hump hot slutty Russian chicks in the safety and security of my own city then have to go across the border to TJ and risk life and limb just to get some hot foreign sex.

Thats really all I have to say about illegal immigration.

[Zebra 3]

http://img68.echo.cx/img68/2647/ratpatrol24ic.jpg

http://img67.echo.cx/img67/7884/ratpatrol113fy.jpg

[ziggytrix]

Hang on - what evidence, exactly? What's your source?

As for your irrelevant, rhetorical question, I tend to distrust government officials on general principle. But what motive do they have to lie here? If these people weren't more of a nusiance than a help why are the Border Patrol officials saying otherwise?

Damn, I never figured you for the wacko conspiracy theory type!

[Emu]

They would lie about it because the Minutemen are taking their jobs.

edit: 4000 posts :)

[El Blanco]

The government guys are just playing CYA. Its no conspiracy its human nature. Nobody likes to hear they aren't doing an effective job.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

OK. I guess I shouldn't listen to anything those lying Border Patrol officials say. I keep forgetting, sorry!

Am I on crazy pills here, or is it entirely out of the question that just maybe people who would like to keep their jobs with the Border Patrol would argue that everything is going really well with the Border Patrol......?

[thebiggameover]

AngPur- have you ever been here to arizona?

Have you ever been to Turkey? What the hell does location matter? Are you asking me if I know what a Mexican is? Yes, we have them in other states too, believe it or not.

if you lived here and saw just how bad shit is here, you might want to go play war in the desert too. you guys talk about jobs and taxes, im worried about my car being stolen, striped, then taken accross the border. i just think you have to be here in arizona to see just how big the problem is....

[Carnivore]

There's nothing more infuriating than having your car stolen and striped!

http://www.eunos.com/keith/stripes/images/baby_new_rear.jpg

Illegal immigrants make up a disproportionately large segment of the prison population. Your response?

[ziggytrix]

Are you guys really suggesting that anyone thinks the existence of the Border Patrol is in danger?! If anything, I would think finding problems with the BP would lead to increases in funding, manpower, etc. assuming we aren't talking about problems of incompetancy.

They're part of Homeland Security. I REALLY don't think these guys are worried about the department being shut down because of the Minutemen.

[thebiggameover]

fuck, i cant spell...
:(

[ziggytrix]

Illegal immigrants make up a disproportionately large segment of the prison population. Your response?

I'd love to see a breakdown of what they were in jail for. And if INS detention facilities are counted as a segment of the prison population.

[El Blanco]

Are you guys really suggesting that anyone thinks the existence of the Border Patrol is in danger?! If anything, I would think finding problems with the BP would lead to increases in funding, manpower, etc. assuming we aren't talking about problems of incompetancy.

Ya, but are you going to be the guy who goes on TV and says "this job is too big for us and we need help. In fact, the guys out here in lawn chairs have really improved things around here"

I'd hate to see that poor guy's next job evaluation.

They're part of Homeland Security. I REALLY don't think these guys are worried about the department being shut down because of the Minutemen.

No, they are worried about bad press. They are a government agency.

[ziggytrix]

well then, I guess Frank Libutti better watch his ass!

http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20050510-073806-8158r.htm

[El Blanco]

You have politicians playing to certain crowds. And Ridge can stop calling them vigilantes.

Its an attempt to use a buzzword to put a negative light on the MM.

[AngPur]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vigilante :)

[ziggytrix]

vigilante has connotations tho. most people think of shit like the Punisher or Batman...

[El Blanco]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vigilante :)

Ya, that smug smiley thing, I hate when people do that. Because, usually the people using that are dead wrong and have no fucking clue.

The MM have not taken the law into their own hands. They are not running out and roping or gunning down people jumping the border.

They are watching the borders nd then alerting law enforcement officials. See the difference? Thats working in conjunction with the law, not taking it into your own hands.

[AngPur]

They are watching the borders nd then alerting law enforcement officials. See the difference? Thats working in conjunction with the law, not taking it into your own hands.

2. A member of a vigilance committee.

:) No need for profanities. I'm here to help you understand how to use the dictionary.

[Carnivore]

Well thank God that you are HEAR to help.

[AngPur]

Is that better than "bereacrats"?

[El Blanco]

They are not a vigilance commitee.

Why don't you try understanding the English language before yo uattempt to give lessons on the dictionary to people smarter than you?

[AngPur]

Why do you keep trying to use 'I'm smarter than you' attacks on the internet? It's pretty pointless Mr. uattempt.

[ziggytrix]

How can you say these people weren't taking law enforcement into their own hands? They went out armed to look for criminal activity. The only thing that makes me hesistate to use the word vigilante is it's connotations - there's certainly nothing inappropriate in it's use in the literal watchman. Hell, they've even named their little group after a famous militia. But I'll agree a better word to descirbe them is activists or protesters since their operation was for one month only.

Since you are so into these semantic debates, let's argue about your misuse of the word buzzword next.

[Carnivore]

"The percentage of noncitizens in Federal prisons has increased to more than a quarter of the Federal prison population. Most are illegal aliens, half of them convicted of drug dealing and drug trafficking. Either because of mismanagement or a lack of desire, our immigration laws are not being enforced as they should be."

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju59872.000/hju59872_0f.htm

[El Blanco]

So, if I see someone getting mugged and call for a cop, I'm a vigilante?

[ziggytrix]

if you went out looking for muggers with your cellphone in hand and 911 already keyed in, and a gun on your hip just in case you were attacked, then yes.

[kellychaos]

If ya could 'ply for a license for somethin' like dis, how many d'ya reckon they'd 'low you bag in a year? I mean, wut's a reasonable limit?

[ziggytrix]

5.

[kellychaos]

It will please you to notice that I have refrained from any dark meat versus white meat jokes.

[El Blanco]

if you went out looking for muggers with your cellphone in hand and 911 already keyed in, and a gun on your hip just in case you were attacked, then yes.

Thats not what they are doing. They aren't hunting them down. They are looking over spots where they tend to go and calling the authorities. They are, in fact, discouraged from bringing weapons and are told to leave at the first sign of trouble.

[ziggytrix]

ok if you went out to a rough spot in south Dallas where muggings occured daily with your cellphone in hand and 911 already keyed in, and a gun on your hip just in case you were attacked, then yes.

- just to take the "hunting down" part out of the equation.

you really can't say that they weren't trying to take an active part in law enforcement, even if they weren't trying to take down suspects themselves.

mind you, i don't personally have a problem with what they were doing, especially since as a non-violent protest it was hugely succesful.

i still think the ultimate solution is not putting one of these groups at every border hot spot, but rather going after the businesses that hire illegals, making legal ways for immigrant labor to be acquired for certain jobs, and stopping the incentive for non-violent aliens to break border laws. as for the drug smugglers, we could put a big dent in their profits if we made it legal for potheads to grow their own plants, but i doubt many folks would go for that one.

[El Blanco]

i still think the ultimate solution is not putting one of these groups at every border hot spot, but rather going after the businesses that hire illegals, making legal ways for immigrant labor to be acquired for certain jobs, and stopping the incentive for non-violent aliens to break border laws.

OK, I can't say I disagree with you too much there.

I'd also add that we should help Mexico get out of such a situation where so many people feel they have to take such a dangerous journey.

[Ant10708]

The border will be properly secured once some crazy blows himself and a couple dozen civilians up in the name of Allah and we find out he crossed over one of our borders illegally.

[GAsux]

I'm not picking sides in this snazzy little argument you have going here mind you. I personally don't give to shits if some jackass wants to sit in the middle of the desert in a lawn chair with some binoculars looking for immigrants.

But I believe there are some things that are important to point out. For example, I don't believe the folks involved in either Trade Center bombing made their way into this country via a dusty, cactus strewn trail in the Arizona desert. So to this point, the "terrorists are sneaking across the border" argument is worthless. The fact is, to this point, the "terrorists" haven't had to go that route.

Therefore, without statistical evidence or neato websites to back up my "opinion", I believe the bulk of the people we're talking about here are primarily third world country immigrants coming to this country for work or your car stereo.

I know I'm rambling here but now that I think about it, the onlyl heavily documented account of terrorists attempting to enter the US via a border crossing to come blow shit up was via our neighbors to the north.

Personally, I believe that the argument about "securing our borders" as it pertains to foot traffic in the middle of the desert is a moot point not worth discussing. Maybe some horrible terrorist attack perpetrated by nomadic desert runners will prove me wrong, but I'm willing to take my chances.

[FS]

http://users3.ev1.net/~rfet/swchpics/tsknradr.jpg

ROAR

[KevinTheOmnivore]

They are watching the borders nd then alerting law enforcement officials. See the difference? Thats working in conjunction with the law, not taking it into your own hands.

Yo, if I can work at night, flash a flash light in a Mexican's face, and yell "citizen's arrest!!!", I'll head down there with ya. :smugsmileyface

[El Blanco]

For example, I don't believe the folks involved in either Trade Center bombing made their way into this country via a dusty, cactus strewn trail in the Arizona desert. So to this point, the "terrorists are sneaking across the border" argument is worthless. The fact is, to this point, the "terrorists" haven't had to go that route.

So, we should wait until they are using it instead of taking a preventative measure? Thats like saying you don't need a smoke alarm because you haven't had a fire yet.

Since there are thousands of illegaql immigrants flowing through there and it is already a pipeline for narcotics and weapons, it really isn't a big jump for terrorists to make should our ports and harbors actually become secured.

[GAsux]

Perhaps we should clarify. At no point did I say, hint, or intimate that a terrorist couldn't possibly make it across our borders. Nor did I imply that since it hasn't happened, we should turn a blind eye to immigration.

What I said clearly is that to this point, no terrorist act in the U.S. has stemmed from a bad guy sneaking across the desert Southwest. The simple fact is, they don't have to. So any discussion of the fact that terrorists are flooding across are borders is hypothetical at this point. If you have evidence to the contrary, Id be happy to consider it.

So the heart of the matter is, if you're discussing illegal immigration, particularly on the US/Mexican border, the problem of terrorism in my opinion is hardly the top concern. Although not impossible, it hasn't happened yet and there's little indication that it's even a threat at this point. When terrorists sneak across the border and kill lots of people, you can tell me what a jackass I am for being wrong.

It would be great if you didn't expand my post into arguments I never actually made in the first place.