People are not sure it was a plane that hit the pentagon...

[neojester12]

It looks like a missle to me...
www.pentagonstrike.co.uk

[ziggytrix]

I wish I cared. I really do. :(

[AngPur]

Dear sir, I am so left my hand orientation and balls aligned to match my views. I am so left I make Ted Kennedy look like a gun nut. I am so left, I almost vote Nader last moment. I'm so left I don't dismiss Moore right off the bat.

...And I'll tell you now it was a plane; P-L-A-N-E. I've seen the video of it hitting the pentagon. I have no doubt in my little tree-hugging, bush-hating mind that all the 9/11 crap was done by Saudis in planes.

Stop it with the little conspiracy crap.

[FS]

I'm still not even considering this stupid theory until someone can at least give me a sensible REASON why it wouldn't be a plane.

[Geggy]

"2004 animation created by Darren Williams." rolleyes

Good job on disrespecting the people who died on the plane that crashed into the pentagon by assuming it was a missile unless you think there were people stuffed inside the missile.

[kellychaos]

And thus the newest idea in the history of super-economy airlines was born.

[AngPur]

The Soviets once delivered a letter by using an ICBM...

[Ant10708]

I've seen the video of it hitting the pentagon. I Where'd you see this video? I've looked all over the internet and I don't think one exists that is open to the public.

[El Blanco]

The Soviets once delivered a letter by using an ICBM...

Did it say something along the lines of, "If you can read this, you are fucked"?

[bigtimecow]

heyshutupNOIRISHNEEDAPPLYracist

[AngPur]

I've seen the video of it hitting the pentagon. I Where'd you see this video? I've looked all over the internet and I don't think one exists that is open to the public.

I saw it on television. Not everything revolves around the internet.

[Chojin]

If it were on television, though, it'd be on the internet. Unless the attack involved Owen Hart.

[AngPur]

Only if someone bothers to convert every single news story.

http://snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

[Chojin]

I'm pretty sure the terms "Internet" and "Only if someone bothers" are synonymous at this point.

[AngPur]

I'm pretty sure the terms "Internet" and "Only if someone bothers" are synonymous at this point.

Only for expansion of porn.

[Ant10708]

You didn't see a video of the Pentagon crash on television. There is no way a video of that historic importance was on television and there is no mention of it on the internet and that no one else seemed to of seen it besides you.

[AngPur]

Say what? (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/03/07/gen.pentagon.pictures/)

[Chojin]

So it is on the internet, then?

[AngPur]

I wasn't the one who said it didn't exist.

Where'd you see this video? I've looked all over the internet and I don't think one exists that is open to the public.

[Chojin]

You implied it with 'not everything revolves around the internet.'

[AngPur]

I just mistakenly assumed Ant was correct. It was passing ignorance on my part. I assumed the ill information, not created it.

So yes, it does exist.

[Abcdxxxx]

Half of DC and Maryland witnessed a plane hitting. There's some freeway nearby that was jammed with traffic when it hit.

[Ant10708]

I assumed it was a plane that hit I just never saw the video. Thanks for the link.

[Sergeant_Tibbs]

Can someone explain how a sheet metal plane penetrated six steel reinforced concrete walls?

[AngPur]

Can someone explain how a sheet metal plane penetrated six steel reinforced concrete walls?

Inertia.

[Sergeant_Tibbs]

So because of inertia it was able to punch a hole through not one but six walls instead of getting crushed like a popcan against maybe the third one?

[AngPur]

You're talking about over 100 tons of matter moving at several hundred miles an hour. It doesn't matter if it's all paper machette, if it weights that much and is moving that fast, it will do major damage.

Sorta like how 2x4s in a hurricane can smash through concrete walls too.

[ziggytrix]

According to the internet, the typical operating weight of an EMPTY Boeing 757 is 64105 kg. It's approach speed is 263 km/h.

The force it takes to stop a 757 at approach speed would be 4683226 Newtons for each second it took to stop. Assumming it stoped moving from impact to rest in 10 seconds, that's 468323N or 105283.2 pounds force.

The 757 that crashed into the Pentagon was actually travelling much faster, about 560 km/h, but I don't feel like redoing the math - we're talking about a force of over a hundred tons.

With a 20 x 20 foot fuselage, that's roughly 190 TONS per square inch of impact surface. And that's not even counting the force of the explosion of the fuel.

[ranxer]

that snopes refutation of the non 757 is a little twisted and the the "video" of the pentagon hit has not been released.http://www.flight77.info/ they did release snapshots from the 'video' that were supposed to "prove" that a boeing 757 hit the pentagan but they fall far short, in fact they pose more questions than answers. why not release the video?!
do you see a 757 in those pics? and there were no crowds of people on the highway saying they saw a large passenger jet.

the snopes refutation starts with an assumption that if you don't buy the bush commissions report you have to have a scenario that makes more sense, and if you don't the bush admins conspiracy theory stands. there's got to be a name for that kind of reasoning. We've already been given an explanation that hasn't met the evidence available. who cares if there isn't a better explanation yet, the point is that we havnt had a real investigation yet!

i think David Ray Griffin sums up where we're at with the pentagon on 9/11 relativly well..

"The physical evidence contradicts so violently the official account, that the Pentagon was hit by a Boeing 757 — Flight 77, that is. The physical evidence, photographs, and eyewitness testimony say that the Pentagon was hit by something that caused a hole no larger than 18 feet in diameter. The story the Pentagon put out, and was published by the Washington Post, was that the hole in the Pentagon was five stories high and 200 feet wide. If you look at the photographs taken by Tom Horan of the Associated Press — that’s just not the size of the hole.
But if the hole was only 18 feet wide, it had to have been created by something other than a Boeing. Whatever went into the Pentagon pierced six reinforced walls. This was the west wing, the part of the Pentagon being refurbished and reinforced. These walls were extra strong, and yet whatever it was went through six walls creating a hole about seven feet in diameter in the sixth wall. This had to have been something with a very powerful head on it. A Boeing 757 has a very fragile nose, and would not have pierced through all those walls; it would have been crushed by hitting the Pentagon. And given that it only penetrated these three rings, the rest of the aircraft would have been sitting outside on the yard. And yet the photographs taken just as the fire trucks got there — very shortly after the crash — show no plane whatsoever.

Q:What do they show?
DRG: They show no aircraft whatsoever. And everyone agrees on this. The official story is that the whole aircraft went inside the Pentagon. The problem with that — the firefighters in there would have seen the airplane. They would have seen the engines, they would have seen the aluminum fuselage, but they reported nothing. Ed Plower, the fire chief, when asked what he saw, said, “I didn’t see any big pieces, no fuselage, no engines, no nothing.” But about a month later, when asked he said, “Oh yes, I saw all that.” His memory had had time to be refreshed.

Q:If what you’re saying is accurate — that it was a missile — then what happened to the plane and all the people on it?
That’s why I stress I’m not trying to give an account of what really happened. I have no idea what happened to Flight 77.
http://independent.com/news/news906.htm

[Sergeant_Tibbs]

Your numbers are fubar so I'll use my own, and show my work.

M = 80,000 Kg
Vi = 600 Km/h / 3600s *1000m = 166m/s
Vf = 0 m/s
T = 10s
A = (Vf - Vi) / T = (0m/s - 166m/s) / 10s = 16.67 m/s^2
F = M*A = 80,000 Kg * 16.67 m/s^2 = 1,333,600 N

Okay, a million Newtons. Great whats that in pounds?

(1,333,060N/9.8m/s^2) * 2.205 = 300,060 Lbs / 2,000 = 150 tons over 57,000 square inches is about 5 pounds, not 190 tons. Thats not going to go through SIX CONCRETE WALLS.

Well I didn't think 5 pounds per square inch was very badass so I gave it one second to stop and 14' x 14' to apply all the force. After that I got 105 pounds per square inch. Thats 7 tons per square foot that could do some severe damage for sure! Like rip the wings off upon initial contact with the E ring. like in this picture;
http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/images/flight77/lawn/pent04.jpg

or put neat little holes in walls like in this picture;
http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/images/flight77/inside/punchouthole.jpg

And that massive explosion didn't do much to these spools of cable;
http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/images/flight77/lawn/spools_door_hatch.jpg

[AngPur]

Listen, buddies, I hate Bu$h as much as the next leftist bastard, but conspiracy theories are idiotic.

The PSI doesn't determine pentration, angle and inertia of the oibject being penetrated are facotrs you completely forget.

http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/images/flight77/inside/punchouthole.jpg

I see airplane debris which Ranxer denied existed.

http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/images/flight77/lawn/spools_door_hatch.jpg

How far away are these? Where they there before the plane hit or moved in with the news crews and repair companies? This proves nothing.


the snopes refutation starts with an assumption that if you don't buy the bush commissions report you have to have a scenario that makes more sense, and if you don't the bush admins conspiracy theory stands. there's got to be a name for that kind of reasoning.

You're tying to envoke the black/white fallacy, but this isn't it. Snopes states not that everything in the report is 100% perfect, but that nothing but slight 77 could have struck the Pentagon.

Pop in Occum's Razor and most conspiracy theories fail for the same reason Creationism does. Just because the other side doesn't have a story which can be proved 100% doesn't mean yours is just as feasible.

We've already been given an explanation that hasn't met the evidence available. who cares if there isn't a better explanation yet, the point is that we havnt had a real investigation yet!

9/11 commission mean anything to you? Likewise, why would someone just happen to have a missile or whatever ready to launch on the day of the attacks on New York and planned strike on the White House?

It's like saying that cats, dogs and rats are all mammals, but there isn't enough proof that rabbits are.

I have yet to hear another theory on what happened to the pentagon that makes as much sense as 'On the same day three other planes were hijacked and crashed into landmarks, flight 77 collided with the Pentagon'.

i think David Ray Griffin sums up where we're at with the pentagon on 9/11 relativly well..

"The physical evidence contradicts so violently the official account, that the Pentagon was hit by a Boeing 757 — Flight 77, that is. The physical evidence, photographs, and eyewitness testimony say that the Pentagon was hit by something that caused a hole no larger than 18 feet in diameter. The story the Pentagon put out, and was published by the Washington Post, was that the hole in the Pentagon was five stories high and 200 feet wide. If you look at the photographs taken by Tom Horan of the Associated Press — that’s just not the size of the hole.

This is where he probably confuses the size of the hole made with the area of damage done to the building. After all, the plane burned just like the ones that hit the towers. Their impact hole size and final damage was vastly different.

But if the hole was only 18 feet wide, it had to have been created by something other than a Boeing.

We stated that the fuselage was '20x20' or roughly 18 feet in diameter. It's conceivable that the wings snapped back or disintegrated.

Whatever went into the Pentagon pierced six reinforced walls. This was the west wing, the part of the Pentagon being refurbished and reinforced. These walls were extra strong, and yet whatever it was went through six walls creating a hole about seven feet in diameter in the sixth wall.

The reinforcement was mostly updating things like the windows to be more bombproof. I never heard that the walls were being made plane-proof. The planes that hit the twin towers pierced far deeper slamming through steel and concrete facing. It just goes to sohw the power of inertia. Quite a few dozen tons moving at high subsonic speeds can do that to concrete. It would have been (especially loded with fuel) like a large cruise missile.

This had to have been something with a very powerful head on it. A Boeing 757 has a very fragile nose, and would not have pierced through all those walls; it would have been crushed by hitting the Pentagon.

The nose would have crumpled, but that doesn;t mean the rest of the plane didn't still have momentum. This is an obviosu disregard for physics.

And given that it only penetrated these three rings, the rest of the aircraft would have been sitting outside on the yard. And yet the photographs taken just as the fire trucks got there — very shortly after the crash — show no plane whatsoever.

Have you see watery air crashes? An aluminum plane disintegrates when it hits something solid. It still delievers the momentum, but it's structure isn't strong enough to stay intact afterwards. We didn't find two planes sitting whole in the rubble at ground zero either.


Q:What do they show?
DRG: They show no aircraft whatsoever. And everyone agrees on this. The official story is that the whole aircraft went inside the Pentagon. The problem with that — the firefighters in there would have seen the airplane. They would have seen the engines, they would have seen the aluminum fuselage

Bull. The engines and fuselage would have disintegrated, as neither was capable of withstanding the crash without doing so. And debris was everywhere inside and out the crash site. Also, the explosion of the fuel helped break it down more.

Q:If what you’re saying is accurate — that it was a missile — then what happened to the plane and all the people on it?
That’s why I stress I’m not trying to give an account of what really happened. I have no idea what happened to Flight 77.
http://independent.com/news/news906.htm

Occum's Razor cuts his ass here. The most logical explanation for what happened to flight 77 and it's passengers involves a firey death collision. By stating her that it was a missile, he falls to the black/white fallacy.

[Sergeant_Tibbs]

"The PSI doesn't determine pentration..."

Yeah it does thats why bullets penetrate stuff because its a large force behind a tiny surface area.

"How far away are these? Where they there before the plane hit or moved in with the news crews and repair companies? This proves nothing."

They were no more than I'd say 100 - 150 feet away. They were right in front of the impact point and this does prove something. According to the official story the plane hit the ground right before crashing into the building so how could these have survived a plane crashing into them and then a fireball behind them?

check out the whole site http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/flight77.html

edit - "The nose would have crumpled, but that doesn;t mean the rest of the plane didn't still have momentum. This is an obviosu disregard for physics. "

Yeah just like when a car hits a tree, the front crumples up and the rest stays completly intact. Because metal doesn't transfer enregy at all.

[AngPur]

"The PSI doesn't determine pentration..."

Yeah it does thats why bullets penetrate stuff because its a large force behind a tiny surface area.

A bullet could penetrate your body even if it had no point, simply due to the speed and momentum alone, it would smash it's way through.

They were no more than I'd say 100 - 150 feet away.

You determine this how? All I see in the image is spools that are on crash with fire in the background. There could be a multitde of angles and distances on them.

Yeah just like when a car hits a tree, the front crumples up and the rest stays completly intact. Because metal doesn't transfer enregy at all.

That analogy is pointless, cars are designed with crumple zones. Likewise, by proportion the iron chassis in cars are far stronger than the thin aluminum and whatnot construction of a 757. Combine that with an explosion and pressurized cabin, and you have no airplane fuselage afterwards.

[FS]

seriously, WHY would it be a missile?

[AngPur]

seriously, WHY would it be a missile?

Exactly, and especially considering three other planes were hijacked and two were used in attacks.

[Ant10708]

seriously, WHY would it be a missile? Maybe they were trying to fire a missle at the plane going towards the pentagon to take it down. That is the only reason I could think of. Unless you are crazy and think it was Bush/Cheny and the oil industry who did the whole thing.

[Emu]

FS, you fool! You're asking the wrong question: Why WOULDN'T it be a missile? HUH?

[AngPur]

seriously, WHY would it be a missile? Maybe they were trying to fire a missle at the plane going towards the pentagon to take it down. That is the only reason I could think of. Unless you are crazy and think it was Bush/Cheny and the oil industry who did the whole thing.

That would still mean a plane was flying towards the pentagon and going to hit it.

[kellychaos]

What about: Did a flight involving a 707 Boeing leave Dulles airport and, if so, where is it now?

That would have to be part of an official record, no?

[ranxer]

I see airplane debris which Ranxer denied existed.
i see no airplane debris in that photo.
there's only one pic where i can see airplane debris and its way out on the lawn. not very conclusive. engines do not disintegrate! planes do not disintegrate.. there should be large pieces around.
besides the damage done to the facade of the pentagon doesnt match that of a 757 http://www.apfn.org/apfn/pentagonxox30.jpg
angpur you seem to be an odd duck.. claiming to be left and hate bush all the time like your trying to prove it. people like me have no hatred for bush but feel strongly against his policies.. i suspect you to be a conspiracy nut FOR the bush administration.

I've simply been repeating for a long time that all the evidence points to the conclusion that the bush admin and their toothless commission has been lieing repeatedly about what happened on 9-11. there were almost NO independant investigators. the investigation was stifled at every turn. Many folks with key information about all the attacks on 9-11 were not called in front of the official coverup commission.. I'll repeat that the best summary of info available to date is David Ray Griffin's book "the 9-11 commission report - omissions and distortions" [/img][/quote]

[Sergeant_Tibbs]

"...the iron chassis in cars are far stronger than the thin aluminum and whatnot construction of a 757..."

Right, so why didn't it crumple up against the side of a 24 inch thick renforced wall? And I'm not saying it was a missile, but it sure as hell wasn't a 757.

[AngPur]

engines do not disintegrate! planes do not disintegrate.. there should be large pieces around.

There were no large airplane pieces in ground zero at New York.

Hell, look at the crash off Nova Scotia. The FBI and FAA needed to piece thousands of bits of that plane baqck together to find out what happened. Planes only stay intact when they hit an open feild. If they slam into an ocean or a building, their pressurized cabins tear to pieces.

besides the damage done to the facade of the pentagon doesnt match that of a 757 http://www.apfn.org/apfn/pentagonxox30.jpg

Do you think when bugs bunny leaves an outline of himself in the wall, that's realistic. Oh, nevermind, a photoshopped image with question marks is indesputable proof.

angpur you seem to be an odd duck.. claiming to be left and hate bush all the time like your trying to prove it. people like me have no hatred for bush but feel strongly against his policies.. i suspect you to be a conspiracy nut FOR the bush administration.

YOU call ME a conspiracy nut?

Not all Kerry/Nader voters are out there protesting. Not all of us cry 'BU$H' and 'AmeriKKKa'. You sir, are to the left what Creationists are to the right.

But never mind, disagreeing with Bush means he must be Satan and firing missiles at our own buildings. And my votingsupporting for Kerry is just an elaborate facade to convice the world that I am not a bible thumper.

[/quote]I've simply been repeating for a long time that all the evidence points to the conclusion that the bush admin and their toothless commission has been lieing repeatedly about what happened on 9-11. there were almost NO independant investigators. the investigation was stifled at every turn. Many folks with key information about all the attacks on 9-11 were not called in front of the official coverup commission.. I'll repeat that the best summary of info available to date is David Ray Griffin's book "the 9-11 commission report - omissions and distortions" [/img][/quote]

You think Bush Sr. shot Kennedy don't you?

[Chojin]

It's really cute that people with no understanding of physics try to argue this from a 'common sense' point of view, but unless you actually have some experience, do please shut up. For example, it's illegal to throw crap off the empire state building because even a penny dropped from that height is fatal to anyone below. Just because in your limited experience pennies bounce when they hit the ground (even when you throw them at it really, really hard) doesn't mean that they don't sink an inch or two into concrete when enough inertia is behind it.

Same thing with the pentagon. If you fired a sparrow at the speed of sound in the general direction of the building, it'd do some damage.

As for this great debate, I don't get why it matters what hit the pentagon. It wasn't the primary target and in the grand scheme of the aftermath means all of jack and shit. You don't see 9/11 NEVA FORGET shirts with pictures of a burning pentagon next to a morbidly-depressed eagle. The World Trade Center attack was the only one that really mattered as far as public opinion goes.

So, here are your two scenarios:

1. America is attacked by terrorists who hijack 4 planes, 3 of which hit targets in the US.
2. America is attacked by terrorists who hijack 4 planes, 2 of which hit the trade centers, 1 of which vanishes, and the president calls in an attack at the last minute to fire a missile at the pentagon 'just to be safe'.

[kellychaos]

Re: Primary Target

Are you speaking in reference to destroying specific targets/people, anticipated damage, antipated lives lost, anticipated experience of loss by Americans of a national icon or some intelligence specifically gleaned from terrorist after the fact?

[AngPur]

So, here are your two scenarios:

1. America is attacked by terrorists who hijack 4 planes, 3 of which hit targets in the US.
2. America is attacked by terrorists who hijack 4 planes, 2 of which hit the trade centers, 1 of which vanishes, and the president calls in an attack at the last minute to fire a missile at the pentagon 'just to be safe'.

Occum's Razor says that the simplest explanation is often the correct one. So which scenario is simpler?

[GAsux]

I am admittedly feeble minded and incapable of dealing with grand conspiracy theory schemes. So please forgive my ignorance. But all scientific/phsyic/whathaveyou rational aside, it seems to me that the idea of what happened to the plane and the people on it if it DIDN'T crash into the Pentagon would be a key piece of the puzzle yes?

I mean we can assume that those 100+ people or whatever actually did board an airplane at the time it was supposed to take off right? So if it was actually something other than that flight which struck the Pentagon, doesn't the conspiracy theory have to become even MORE complicated now?

If you're accepting the premise that no airplane struck the building, what's the theory on where the people on that flight went? We're they boarded up and locked away somewhere? Or did "they" (the evil materminds) simply ditch the plane in some remote part of the world in order to make the jet impact scenario seem plausible?

Call me crazy but it seems to me in order to buy off on the whole "it wasn't a 747" theory, you've also got to accept some pretty nutty assumptions as to what actually happened to Flight 77.

[Chojin]

Occum's Razor says that the simplest explanation is often the correct one. So which scenario is simpler?
That would be the point, you windy bag of dicks.

[AngPur]

I know, I wasn't arguing with you. I only commented about it because something tells me that the people who are arguing against our logic couldn't be assed to look that up on Wikipedia.

So yeah, in conclusion, nobody casted 'magic missile' on the Pentagon.

(And I <3 you Chojin)

[FS]

LOL at those question marks.

? ?

[ScruU2wice]

Your numbers are fubar so I'll use my own, and show my work.

M = 80,000 Kg
Vi = 600 Km/h / 3600s *1000m = 166m/s
Vf = 0 m/s
T = 10s
A = (Vf - Vi) / T = (0m/s - 166m/s) / 10s = 16.67 m/s^2
F = M*A = 80,000 Kg * 16.67 m/s^2 = 1,333,600 N

Okay, a million Newtons. Great whats that in pounds?

(1,333,060N/9.8m/s^2) * 2.205 = 300,060 Lbs / 2,000 = 150 tons over 57,000 square inches is about 5 pounds, not 190 tons. Thats not going to go through SIX CONCRETE WALLS.


that is the most retarded way to do math ever. especially because you're saying it took 10 seconds for the plane to decelerate. Plus you're converting from kg which is mass to Ilbs which is force. Moreover, it's not a force problem its a pressure problem it doesn't have to go through the whole wall.

What makes you think that you're so qualified to explain a complex real world incident with 10th grade physics?

[ziggytrix]

in fairness, i was the one who said 10 seconds. in reality i'm sure it was something much closer to 1-3 seconds, so sorry.

but if you're so smart, where's your math?

also, the conversion was from NEWTONS to pounds force - nothing wrong there.

also also, pressure = force/area

also also also, don't knock 10th grade physics - classical mechanics is the foundation of all engineering.

i am a little miffed he said my "numbers were all fubar" when the only real difference between his analysis and mine was he converted square feet to square inches without making a careless error. :rolleyes

[FS]

I think we need AChimp in here to calculate how long it would take to coat the whole plane in jizz. Or possibly the entire pentagon.

[AngPur]

i am a little miffed he said my "numbers were all fubar" when the only real difference between his analysis and mine was he converted square feet to square inches without making a careless error. :rolleyes

Still, pressure alone doesn't determine penetration. Look to tanks with sloping armor.

[kellychaos]

I think that we should request that AChimp coat a slope-armored tank with jizz.

[Ant10708]

I suggest we continue debating this instead of repeating joke's from 2 replies above.

[AngPur]

I suggest we continue debating this instead of repeating joke's from 2 replies above.

I don't know. I think all major points were covered, unless you want to change the subject to somewthing similar like how the moon landing was faked, or how the CIA shot Kennedy or how Elvis is an alien.

[Sergeant_Tibbs]

Heres an awesomenesstastic quote from the washington post about the video that clearly shows a 757 hitting the building.

" Officials from the Pentagon said the photos were not released officially by the Department of Defense. A Pentagon spokeswoman could not verify that they came from surveillance cameras.

"The Pentagon has not released any video or any photos from security cameras from the terrorist attack of Sept. 11," said Pentagon spokeswoman Cheryl Irwin. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A56670-2002Mar7&notFound=true

[ScruU2wice]

but if you're so smart, where's your math?

My point was that I'm not smart enough to get the physics behind an air plane full of jet fuel and a pressurized air cabin crashing into building, and that's why I don't like the fact that I could've plugged numbers into a simple physics equation to sum up that type of an event.

also, the conversion was from NEWTONS to pounds force - nothing wrong there.

The newtons are not going down but he said the acceleration is gravity. The force is pointed sideways so you need an acceleration going sideways.

lso also, pressure = force/area

the force wouldn't be distributed over the whole wall so the area would be smaller making the pressure much higher.

also also also, don't knock 10th grade physics - classical mechanics is the foundation of all engineering.

Even newtonian mechanics involved calculus, which is definetaly part of a 10th grade physics class.

[FS]

I suggest we continue debating this instead of repeating joke's from 2 replies above.

I don't know. I think all major points were covered, unless you want to change the subject to somewthing similar like how the moon landing was faked, or how the CIA shot Kennedy or how Elvis is an alien.

Hang on, two of those are complete nonsense.

[Chojin]

I think it's fantastic that we're all debating whether or not an airplane can fly into a building. If you live in the US, you get about five opinions daily through bumper stickers that would suggest 'yes.'

[Emu]

The average is between 15-18 a day here. Most of them on the same Ford Ranger.

[kellychaos]

i am a little miffed he said my "numbers were all fubar" when the only real difference between his analysis and mine was he converted square feet to square inches without making a careless error. :rolleyes

Still, pressure alone doesn't determine penetration. Look to tanks with sloping armor.

You got that right. I was virtually begging this girl at the club one night and ...

Oh, I'm sorry. We really should get back to debating the ridiculous.

[El Blanco]

I think it's fantastic that we're all debating whether or not an airplane can fly into a building. If you live in the US, you get about five opinions daily through bumper stickers that would suggest 'yes.'

Dude, you see some of the neighborhoods I work in. You can get t-shirts, bumper stickers and posters that will tell you just about anything on this particular subject.

[GAsux]

What about the people god dammit! I dont' know shit about newtons and plutons and all that other nonsense. If it wasn't a plane where the fuck did those people go!

[FS]

Well OBVIOUSLY after the government shot themselves with a missile, they recovered the real wreckage from area 51 and strategically placed the remains of the bodies where they would have fallen had the plane really crashed there.

[Emu]

Then they erased the memories of onlookers and passerby with that thing from Men in Black.

[El Blanco]

Then they erased the memories of onlookers and passerby with that thing from Men in Black.

Linda Fiorentino?

[neojester12]

i'm so glad
for starting this thread.
i feel so idiotic

[Chojin]

your haiku is broken

[kellychaos]

What about the people god dammit! I dont' know shit about newtons and plutons and all that other nonsense. If it wasn't a plane where the fuck did those people go!

Worm-fucking-hole! :rolleyes

[ranxer]

I see airplane debris which Ranxer denied existed.

http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/images/flight77/lawn/spools_door_hatch.jpg
How far away are these? Where they there before the plane hit or moved in with the news crews and repair companies? This proves nothing.

first you say you see the debris then you sort of admit they arent plane parts, then say it proves nothing.. i'm not sure how much it matters if there are no airplane parts in that picture but you said you saw them. you don't seem to have your facts straight and lie and bluff like many of the "conspiracy debunking" websites.
I have seen other pics with plane parts but nothing that really seems to match flight 77 yet.


I don't know. I think all major points were covered, unless you want to change the subject to somewthing similar like how the moon landing was faked, or how the CIA shot Kennedy or how Elvis is an alien.

nice how you link 9-11 questions to whackyness.

there's lots of unanswered questions about flight 77 but i'd just like to see them release the videos.

answer me this angpur: why won't they release the vids?!
there's one that was confiscated from a gas station across the street and the pentagon one from the toll station. at least they released some snapshots so if they do release a vid we can see if it matches the pics, but the snapshots don't show anything but reasons to ask more questions.
It seems that we won't know until some whistleblowers come forward and there's an honest investigation.

i like the summary of this debate at: http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagontrap.html

oh yea and explain this:
The testimony of Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta on May 23 about Cheney's actions is revealing. Mineta said he arrived at the Presidential Emergency Operating Center (PEOC) at 9:20 a.m. where he observed the Vice President taking charge:

Mineta: There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out.The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?"

And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?" Well, at the time I didn't know what all that meant. And.

Hamilton: The flight you're referring to is the.

Mineta: The flight that came into the Pentagon.

After some discussion of whether Cheney's orders meant to shoot down the hijacked aircraft, it was clearly stated on the record that there were no such orders to do so, which raises the obvious question of what "the orders" were:

Hamilton: And so there was no specific order there to shoot that plane down.

Mineta: No, sir.

Hamilton: But there were military planes in the air in position to shoot down commercial aircraft.

Mineta: That's right. The planes had been scrambled, I believe, from Otis at that point.

i supose there's refutation that he said that, but if so, why wasn't it in the commission report?! [/quote][/code]

[Chojin]

So what are you suggesting? That they tried to shoot down the flight and the missiles comically flew past and blew sideways in through the Pentagon, making the terrorists feel the mission was satisfactorily accomplished and henceforth flew the plane back to Saudi Arabia and buried all the passengers in a tar pit?

Ranxer, why would a missile have been shot at the Pentagon? Seriously.

[GAsux]

When a criminal investigation takes places there must be a search for suspects and a motive.

I am not oppossed to 9/11 conspiracy theories because I hate anti-establishment liberals and therefore seek to debase every argument they put forth. I'm oppossed to the 9/11 conspiracy theories because they simply dont make sense.

IF in fact 9/11 wasn't perpetrated by islamic fundamentalists, who did? If there was U.S. government involvement, would it not require a broad level of knowledge amongst a shitload of people to pull off?

Who are the suspects and what are the motives?

As Machiavelli once pointed out, the more people there are involved in a conspiracy, the more difficult it becomes to keep it under wraps. The scope of 9/11 crosses a dozen different agencies. I simply cannot accept the assumption that people within all of those agencies would be willing to cooperate to some degree with a plot to this magnitude without someone screwing the pooch.

You can poke holes in an agrument in any investigation, but it doesnt mean dick if you can't provide a viable alternative and I've seen none. Sure OJ's bloody glove was too small and Mark Furman's a racist. But if OJ didn't kill those people, who the fuck did?

[ziggytrix]

Well, there are some conspiracies that suggest the attacks could have been prevented but were not. We needed a "Pearl Harbor" type event for our Middle East reshaping plan.

Not that what happened at Pearl Harbor was necessarily treason to get the country riled up, but there is some evidence to suggest it.

http://boards.historychannel.com/forum.jspa?forumID=30073

As for missles into the Pentagon... I think those extreme theories that have no rationale behind them are pretty dang pointless.

[GAsux]

Where I come from they have a name for those kinds of conspiracies.

Incompetence.

[Chojin]

I think what really happened is that the men in black misfired into the pentagon :<

[pjalne]

I don't know, dude. This has Doctor Who's fingerprints all over it.

[ranxer]

So what are you suggesting?...
Ranxer, why would a missile have been shot at the Pentagon? Seriously.

I have never said i thought it was a missle.. my strongest point is that there has not been an honest investigation, in fact we've had a lot of the opposite. the administration did not cooperate with an investigation. they have withheld evidence and tried to reject investigation.

fact: 9-11 commission report says that hani hanjour was the pilot of the pentagon attack plane.
fact: hani hanjour was failing flight school.
fact: reports we have say that the flight path of flight 77 required a pilot with amazing skill. many veteran pilots have said they probably couldnt pull off the manuever that flight 77 did. begging the question of: was it a boeing commercial airliner? we even have quotes of the radar people watching the plane come in and saying it looked like a military jet manuever.
fact: flight 77 was "missing" from radar for about 40 minutes before it (or a signal matching flight 77) suddenly showed up over the pentagon in a steep dive. sheesh, why won't they release the videos??!!

I havn't claimed to know what happened, i'm saying that the conspiracy theory that the bush administration and the 9-11 commission came up with doesn't make sense.

I don't want to go into my favorite theory cause i'm not that much of a glutton for punishment but it involves a radio controlled global hawk. honestly, i don't care for alternatives i'm more interested in an honest investigation!

[Chojin]

But for you to want an investigation means that there is a preconceived alternative. So what is a feasible alternative scenario and the reasoning behind it?

[kellychaos]

Multi- Dimensional Man, where are you?! :(

[GAsux]

Yeah yeah, what Chojin said. Which is I think what I said too.


If OJ didn't do it, who did?

[pjalne]

Some Puertorican guy.