ungggh aaaaghhung aaarrrgghgnnnng

[ItalianStereotype]

FUCK. I HATE you, China.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/front2453576.5340277776.html
The latest Chinese threat: No slip of the tongue By Christopher Holton
SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM Monday, July 25, 2005

Partially buried in the news dominated by terrorist bombings and the Valerie
Plame blamegame on July 15, was an overt threat against the United States
delivered by a general in Red China's People's Liberation Army (PLA).

General Zhu Chengu, the dean of Red China's National Defense University,
said that if the United States interfered with any Chinese attempt to use
force against Taiwan, China would attack America with nuclear weapons. Here
were his exact words:

"I think we will have to respond with nuclear weapons. Of course, the
Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds of cities will be destroyed
by the Chinese."
America's response to this threat has been curiously weak. America chose its
weakest department of government with which to respond: State.

The State Department's spokesman called the remarks "unfortunate,"
"disturbing" and "irresponsible." The response made it seem as if the State
Department believed that the remarks were either made mistakenly or did not
represent the views of Red China's leaders.

This was playing right into China's hands. They proclaimed that the general'
s remarks were his own personal viewpoint and not official Chinese policy.
But, most importantly, the Chinese did not retract the general's statement,
nor did they disavow the remarks or apologize.

One wonders what the outcry would be from both sides if a U.S. Army general
had uttered such a comment directed at China. I frankly believe that our own
State Department's response would have been much stronger and more critical
had a U.S. officer made such a statement and there is no doubt in my mind
that we would have disowned the remark. Meanwhile, our general's career
would be over for all practical purposes.

Some might say that perhaps the Chinese general's career will suffer as a
result of his remarks. I doubt it. Not if history is any guide.

You see, this is the second time in the past decade that a high ranking
Chinese general has threatened the U.S. with nuclear weapons in the past
decade. Back in 1996, speaking about the same question of Taiwan, General
Xiong Guangkai inferred in a thinly veiled threat that the U.S. would not
come to Taiwan's aid because America cared more about Los Angeles than
Taipei. He made this statement directly to U.S. diplomat Charles Freeman.

No apology was ever issued for those remarks in 1996. General Xiong was not
reprimanded, in fact, he was promoted and became chief of military
intelligence, close to the top of the PLA hierarchy.

What is shocking and frustrating is that anyone in the United States could
even believe that a PLA general could ever just express his own views in the
first place. U.S. officers are highly restricted from expressing their
opinions on such matters. In China's centralized, communist society, there
is no such thing as freedom of expression. Do you think for a minute that
this same general could have said that Taiwan had a right to sovereignty and
survived intact? Of course not. General Zhu's remarks were not inadvertent
and they certainly did not reflect his own personal views. We can be sure
that his remarks were calculated and designed to both issue a warning to the
U.S. and then solicit a response that could be carefully analyzed and
measured.

So far, we have failed this analysis. Instead of wondering aloud whether
these remarks represented official Chinese policy, we should have declared
that the remarks put the U.S.-China relationship in a whole new light then
summoned our ambassador for consultations. We should have demanded a
retraction and apology. We should also have convened a meeting of leaders
from Japan, Australia and others in the Asia-Pacific region to discuss China
's repeated threats to use nuclear weapons. And we should have inferred that
another option would be for the U.S. to fully arm Taiwan with sophisticated
weaponry so as to make U.S. action unnecessary.






mere rhetorical bullshit? maybe. but wars have been started over this kind of language. we're fast coming to the point where China will be in a good enough political and military position to challenge Taiwanese autonomy and, most likely, it will make or break the US position in the 21st century. it's not too far out there to imagine losing western europe to the Chinese, hell, they're already in bed with them, but nations like Canada, Australia, Japan, the UK, etcetera? if Taiwan falls, it's definitely a possibility. if they slip away peacefully, we'll lose too much face politically. if we go to war with China, well, their nuclear capabilities are now almost on par with our own. oh, the problems one well placed bomb in Beijing might solve.

[mburbank]

I think this calls for a preemtive US nuclear strike on Taiwan, as the potential need to defend it threatens our national security.

[Gurlugon]

I thought this would be a topic about the late Terri Schiavo

[ItalianStereotype]

I don't like gimps.

[Cosmo Electrolux]

http://www.terrisfight.org/images/summer.jpg

I like this image better than the drooler image.......She's dead, you know....the Democrats killed her.

[ItalianStereotype]

NO GIMPS PLEASE. THIS IS A GIMP FREE THREAD :<

[Emu]

your sig is making me lag like fuck IS :(

[ItalianStereotype]

but it's so pretty

[ziggytrix]

it's not too far out there to imagine losing western europe to the Chinese, hell, they're already in bed with them, but nations like Canada, Australia, Japan, the UK, etcetera? if Taiwan falls, it's definitely a possibility. if they slip away peacefully, we'll lose too much face politically. if we go to war with China, well, their nuclear capabilities are now almost on par with our own. oh, the problems one well placed bomb in Beijing might solve.

and you wonder why that stupid test said you were hitlerific? if your gut response to the china-taiwan issue really is a US preemtive strike on china, because your fear they are going to take over the world... well, shit. YOU scare ME.

[kellychaos]

Hell, we tied them about 50 years ago. I think that with some of the key draft picks we've picked up over the years and some coaching changes, we have a chance to go all the way this time around.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Hey, Eye Tie, did you see the story about China getting all chummy with Mugabe now? Apparently Mugabe has become so Anti-American/pro-Chinese, that he's pushing for like a whole "Chinafication" in Zimbabwe.

And of course, China gets access to their resources.

[ItalianStereotype]

Mugabe is a nut. if there were a violent revolution in Zimbabwe and his eyes were torn through his penis, I certainly wouldn't be mourning for him. he blames us for not dealing with his unemployment and inflation issues, but then doesn't seem to quite grasp the concept that he's a complete cunt. his township clearing programs are now being directly fucking linked to Chinese investment and Zimbabwe is now ripe for Chinese colonization. what a ridiculous fucking state of affairs.

and I would say that both China and Russia, the former more so than the latter, are going to be more responsible for destabilizing the world over the next 50 years than any terrorists. China has made territorial claims, most of them bullshit, on 11 out of 25 of her neighbors, they are selling high technology, weapon tech, to some of our most dangerous enemies, they're constantly stealing technological secrets from us, and they're rapidly mobilizing and testing our military patience. they do these things because they see us as trying to "prevent the rise of China." they see war with the US as an inevitability and are already rallying developing nations against the western nations in the UN and the WTO. why do you think the US was removed from the Human Rights Commission for the first time since the 1940s? Chinese strategies for ensuring their dominance have ranged from using economic punishments to force us to dismantle our nuclear arms, our intelligence services, and scale down our militaries by as much as 80% to permanently stationing Chinese forces inside our nations. some Chinese leaders even want to force the West to pay annual reparations for exploiting them in their centuries of weakness, and they're fairly hefty fines at that. I remember reading that some of them were saying 10% of our GDP.

I like China, I'd love to go visit with Jin, but I'd be more than happy to put a bullet into every Chinese Communist's head.

[El Blanco]

You are refering to extremist old schoolers. Even that general admits he wasn't speaking on behalf of the government.

China isn't invading anyone else anytime soon. They can't go after Taiwan or Japan because their navy is a joke. Its actually considered a small branch of their army. They have no troop transports and would get slaughtered by the Taiwan defense, never mind if we actually did decide to step in.

Afghanistan and Pakistan? For what? Lots of useless land and a populace thats going to keep drawing them into the mountains and grinding away at them? That is, if we have already left.

South Korea? They don't want to go head to head with us anymore than we want it. And before anyone pipes up, no, we don 't want that.

Russia ? Ya, go ahead and start a war in Siberia. Think Hitler and Napolean hit roadblocks?

The Old Guard of the Moa Communists is dying off. The new leaders are realizing the benefits of a capitalist society and why its a good idea to play nice with th rest of the world. Any military build up can be attributed for wanting to project power to protect their interests.

Are they still doing underhnded shit? Ya.
Do I trust them? As about as far as I can throw them all.

But, you have to realize what an actual war would cost them in comparison to what they'd actually gain.

[kellychaos]

Who, in the history of the world, has exploited them more than Japan? I find your view reactionary and extreme and would prefer a point of reference to your arguments over reading in between very fine lines and ethnocentric speculation.

[Emu]

kellychaos



Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 6666


:eek

[El Blanco]

Thats extra evil.

[kellychaos]

Quite. :posh

[KevinTheOmnivore]

The Old Guard of the Moa Communists is dying off. The new leaders are realizing the benefits of a capitalist society and why its a good idea to play nice with th rest of the world. Any military build up can be attributed for wanting to project power to protect their interests.

I think they are learning the benefits of a heavily state-monitored free market, what it can produce, what it can get you, particularly since wages remain low, rights remain low, free press remains nada, etc.

I think Eye Tie is right about the threat China poses compared to that of terrorism. Don't get me wrong, I think the latter is a crucial struggle, but it may end up hurting us in terms of where we stand against China. China is bouncing all around the world, locking up resources for their production needs, and they're flaunting their military might just a bit to show that they can protect those resources. So their navy sucks now, they only have some of the brightest minds in the world, along with millions of people to toss into it.

We are distancing ourselves from states that support terrorism, and demanding that they clean up their act. Our relationship with Uzbekistan (rightfully, IMO) has become jeopardized due to their terrible human rights record. But China isn't squeemish about picking up where we've left off. They've embraced Uzbekistan, they've embraced Mugabe, and they'll go wherever the advantage is.

I don't think we need to nuke China, but we do need to encourage some kind of a progressive movement within China, similar to our own of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Capitalist production needs to go along with a free press, civil rights, workers rights, environmental protections, and all of the other annoying stuff that might impede China from just growing and growing and growing.....

[El Blanco]

Human rights are also a big part of our trade negociations. They know that the best way to grow to beome the economic superpower they want to be is to make nice with us. They are drooling for Favored Nation status.

They get some African natiuons to produce resources for them. Big deal. How many Latin American and Asian countries can we say the same about?

And they still need a market to sell all these things. We keep catching them dirty dealing against us and we aren't going to be too open to their products.

[ItalianStereotype]

You are refering to extremist old schoolers. Even that general admits he wasn't speaking on behalf of the government.

why were no apologies made? why was nothing retracted? this sort of language has started wars in the past and this sort of thing isn't exactly new to the Chinese. it's an underhanded tactic used by the Party to intimidate other nations.

China isn't invading anyone else anytime soon. They can't go after Taiwan or Japan because their navy is a joke. Its actually considered a small branch of their army. They have no troop transports and would get slaughtered by the Taiwan defense, never mind if we actually did decide to step in.

I'm not as concerned about a naval invasion as I am about a missile strike. the Chinese missile systems are infinitely more advanced than they were even 15 years ago, thanks almost entirely to their espionage in the US. the same thing with their nuclear program. the Chinese have stolen some of our most sensitive nuclear technology and it has benefitted them immensely.

Afghanistan and Pakistan? For what? Lots of useless land and a populace thats going to keep drawing them into the mountains and grinding away at them? That is, if we have already left.

I'm not sure about Afghanistan, especially with the US occupation, but I know Pakistan is already getting into bed with China. they've signed weapons treaties and the Chinese have an oil and gas agreement with Pakistan, plus other communications, infrastructure, and high technology deals. Pakistan's proximity to China guarantees that they'll be in the Sino sphere of influence. it's still too early to determine whether or not this will really be bad for us.

South Korea? They don't want to go head to head with us anymore than we want it. And before anyone pipes up, no, we don 't want that.

any action against south korea is going to involve north korea as well. now, the two militaries combined are more than enough to overwhelm our forces in the area, especially since we are otherwise occupied elsewhere. I'm pretty sure the Chinese would be willing to support their Korean allies if a war were to ever occur, as our response would be limited. the UN wouldn't do a damn thing about it either, as Russia and China are like husband and wife at this point.

Russia ? Ya, go ahead and start a war in Siberia. Think Hitler and Napolean hit roadblocks?

when the Chinese are economically and militarily powerful enough, I have no doubt in my mind that they're going to want their Far East back. at that point, I think that China will be so influential in the affairs of Russia that they'll get exactly what they want with little bloodshed.

The Old Guard of the Moa Communists is dying off. The new leaders are realizing the benefits of a capitalist society and why its a good idea to play nice with th rest of the world. Any military build up can be attributed for wanting to project power to protect their interests.

not as much as you might think. since the end of the Cultural Revolution, there have been periods of progressive economic and cultural policy, but these have always been brutally repressed whenever they advanced too far. there is far too much centralized authority in the CCP to dismiss the Mao style Communists. where there is authoritarianism, there is always an authoritarian.

Are they still doing underhnded shit? Ya.
Do I trust them? As about as far as I can throw them all.

and they're still doing underhanded shit because they have no desire to play nice with the rest of the world. they want to be the hegemon. it's no secret, in fact, it's all but the official position of the government.

But, you have to realize what an actual war would cost them in comparison to what they'd actually gain.

a devastating war for the US would probably suit them quite nicely. hell, they've already said they won't rule out a nuclear war with the US because they feel that their population is enough to survive an exchange. if we lose our international influence, they would become preponderant in Asia and, most likely, throughout much of the world.

they have a manpower pool larger than our entire population and we're basically GIVING them high technology, advanced weaponry, and economic capital. they're quickly modernizing and they see us as not just an enemy, but THE enemy.

Who, in the history of the world, has exploited them more than Japan? I find your view reactionary and extreme and would prefer a point of reference to your arguments over reading in between very fine lines and ethnocentric speculation.

for one, the Chinese Communist Party has exploited the Chinese far more than any foreign power. but before you start crying for them, just remember that they were one of the most powerful countries, and at times THE most powerful, throughout most of recorded history.

do tell me, what is so very ethnocentric about my thoughts? it's hard to speak of China without referring to the Chinese people, so that much is really unavoidable. I'm not making this a white people versus yellow people discussion, I'm talking about an established power versus a belligerent rising power.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

They are moving into those very same Latin American markets, btw.

I'm not saying they pose immediate threat to us, and of course they need to flood their cheap goods somewhere, but they will only do that as long as it is absolutely necessary, IMO. There are other growing consumer markets, and like I said, they're "playing nice" as you call it all over the place.

I still say that we are at a disadvantage due to the strict nature of their market, and maybe not in my lifetime, but perhaps later, China will be the biggest economic and perhaps military threat we face. I believe we will see a bipolar international system again.

[ItalianStereotype]

And they still need a market to sell all these things. We keep catching them dirty dealing against us and we aren't going to be too open to their products.

well, we've caught them a number of times and we're still trading with them. they're too large of a market to brush off like that.

they play nice with us because they're using us.

[El Blanco]

why were no apologies made? why was nothing retracted? this sort of language has started wars in the past and this sort of thing isn't exactly new to the Chinese. it's an underhanded tactic used by the Party to intimidate other nations.

They are trying to keep face. Let them blow wind. Our Ofio class subs are more than enough to make sure its just shit talking.


I'm not as concerned about a naval invasion as I am about a missile strike. the Chinese missile systems are infinitely more advanced than they were even 15 years ago, thanks almost entirely to their espionage in the US. the same thing with their nuclear program. the Chinese have stolen some of our most sensitive nuclear technology and it has benefitted them immensely.

They are eyeing Taiwan and Japan for their economic infrastructures. Wiping the cities off the face of the Earth kind of puts a dent in that. Its a much better idea to send in troops that can actually occupy the centers.


I'm not sure about Afghanistan, especially with the US occupation, but I know Pakistan is already getting into bed with China. they've signed weapons treaties and the Chinese have an oil and gas agreement with Pakistan, plus other communications, infrastructure, and high technology deals. Pakistan's proximity to China guarantees that they'll be in the Sino sphere of influence. it's still too early to determine whether or not this will really be bad for us.

Pakistan is currently both sides, like they and India did during the Cold War.

S
any action against south korea is going to involve north korea as well. now, the two militaries combined are more than enough to overwhelm our forces in the area, especially since we are otherwise occupied elsewhere. I'm pretty sure the Chinese would be willing to support their Korean allies if a war were to ever occur, as our response would be limited.

You'd be surprise just how effective a few B2s can be. Again, we wouldn't have to directly engage them. I also think you're overestimating just how happy the PRC is with Kim Jong Il. They've yanked the leash on him several times when he ran his mouth too much.

the UN wouldn't do a damn thing about it either,

As cynical about them as I am, even I have to hope they'd be more active in that. If they let china run through a sovereign nation simply because they like the trade relationship, the orginaztion is sunk at that exact moment

as Russia and China are like husband and wife at this point.

You are seriously over estimating that relationship.


when the Chinese are economically and militarily powerful enough, I have no doubt in my mind that they're going to want their Far East back. at that point, I think that China will be so influential in the affairs of Russia that they'll get exactly what they want with little bloodshed.

I'd say Western Europe and the United States has just as much a chance to be a powerful influence in Russia as China.


not as much as you might think. since the end of the Cultural Revolution, there have been periods of progressive economic and cultural policy, but these have always been brutally repressed whenever they advanced too far. there is far too much centralized authority in the CCP to dismiss the Mao style Communists. where there is authoritarianism, there is always an authoritarian.

Yes, but little by little, the human rights are increasing.


and they're still doing underhanded shit because they have no desire to play nice with the rest of the world. they want to be the hegemon. it's no secret, in fact, it's all but the official position of the government.

The can say it all they want. They realize it just isn't going to happen.

B
a devastating war for the US would probably suit them quite nicely.

I don't think you remember our doctrine from the Cold War. Mutually Assured Destruction. I have no idea how being turned into a radioactive wasteland suits them.


hell, they've already said they won't rule out a nuclear war with the US because they feel that their population is enough to survive an exchange.

Yes, there would still be Chinese people. But, there would be no China. We don't have to wipe out the entire population, just level their military and industrial centers. What good is all them people if they have no manufacturing capabilities?

if we lose our international influence, they would become preponderant in Asia and, most likely, throughout much of the world.

Just how would they escape unscathed?

[quote]they have a manpower pool larger than our entire population and we're basically GIVING them high technology, advanced weaponry, and economic capital. they're quickly modernizing and they see us as not just an enemy, but THE enemy.
[/ quote]

An enemy they are going to have to coexist with. I'm not saying roll over and take their shit, but you gotta realize that a fight with them over some hardliner blowing wind just isn't to anyone's advantage.

[kahljorn]

I hope china wins, chinese food is one of my favorite types of food... im so hungry now.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

How much money are the Chinese borrowing internationally in order to make their government and economy work??? This question is for anybody. :|

And is there no fear that China might just dump all of the bonds they currently own in an attempt to hurt us....?

[Helm]

How much money are the Chinese borrowing internationally in order to make their government and economy work???

I'm not sure I understand the question: isn't it the case that in geopolitics generally everybody owes to everybody and everybody is lending to everybody? I don't think that's a good way to measure the economic prosperity of a country. Especially since China is now open to a "controlled" ( cannot stress the quotation marks more ) free market, the concepts of debt and profit complicate more

[kellychaos]

It's not like the inevitable fall of communism and the eventual opening of China as an open market wasn't realized 30+ years ago. It's one of the few things for which I give Nixon credit. If his plans to trade with the Chinese would have been followed up with subtle machinations/manipulations when the Chinese were new to the world market and still developing, perhaps we wouldn't be in our present predicament. Thank you, Cold War.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

How much money are the Chinese borrowing internationally in order to make their government and economy work???

I'm not sure I understand the question: isn't it the case that in geopolitics generally everybody owes to everybody and everybody is lending to everybody? I don't think that's a good way to measure the economic prosperity of a country.

I didn't ask for understanding, I asked for an answer. :)

I'm not arguing that their debt means anything, because I don't even know what it's like in the first place. I'm just curious, because Blanco seems pretty certain that we are the undisputed pokemon (I prefer that word over hegemon), and I was just wondering if the other prospective pokemon were in such heavy debt as we are (I don't belive they are).

Especially since China is now open to a "controlled" ( cannot stress the quotation marks more ) free market, the concepts of debt and profit complicate more

I agree, but in whose favor do things complicate?

[El Blanco]

If that were clear, it wouldn't be so complicated, now would it?

[Helm]

When I said I didn't understand I was just stressing that It's confusing how radically different analyses of geopolitics can be, yet all be valid to degrees. My views on the subject are of the layman. I'm just following on the little I read in the papers so I'm hesitant to have a firm opinion unless I do extensive studying.

Generally though, I believe that from a level and above, geopolitical superiority is much less to do with general "our-currency-is-strong!" economic prosperity and more to do with veiled but always there threat of military might. Since geopolitical power is considered an end in itself, I think that is the most direct way to underline superiority is war and the threat of war. This also gives a realistic explaination on why the US, although the sole remaining superpower, still feels the need to underline it's military muscle regularly, instead of being content on largely controlling the world market, which I believe your country is capable of. My opinion is largely anti-marxist ( as in not materialistic, since I don't actually focus on money and the aquiring of as the crux of the situation) and more focusing on the exertion of power as the prime need of communities that are constantly at odds. The US is our current alpha male in a despondent pack of treacherous wolves that is the collection of nations on the earth. It has to bear it's teeth, regardless of wealth, regardless of prosperity. These things are not enough unless you can take DOWN whoever even thinks or you think they think of challenging your power. A pretty atavistic deal, in this light.

To answer your question and to open that discussion

I agree, but in whose favor do things complicate?

I guess China's superiority or inferiority in terms of market has very little to do with if it's threatening or not. Just by existing, and by growing, it's a threat to the US. This is what I read behind Italian's posts in this thread, that constant fear of opposition, an urge to preemptively destroy a potential threat. Power for Security, to quench the primordial need of safety.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

If that were clear, it wouldn't be so complicated, now would it?

I thought you had the answers. :(

[ItalianStereotype]

They are trying to keep face. Let them blow wind. Our Ofio class subs are more than enough to make sure its just shit talking.

they're doing more than trying to keep face. if they wanted to keep face and not further marginalize themselves, they would reign in these mouthpieces who, in effect, speak for the government. that's not limited to just some extremist general either, this has been an ongoing problem.

and if we're going to make sure that they're just talking shit, I say let's be flashy about it. send a Nimitz carrier group.

They are eyeing Taiwan and Japan for their economic infrastructures. Wiping the cities off the face of the Earth kind of puts a dent in that. Its a much better idea to send in troops that can actually occupy the centers.

it's dangerous to assume that they won't strike out of nationalist pride. Taiwan is nothing more than a rebellious province to them, I don't doubt that they'd strike just to cow them. besides, they tend to threaten Taiwanese and U.S. military forces with missile strikes more than the cities. if we were to intervene, however, I have no doubt it would escalate far beyond that.

Pakistan is currently both sides, like they and India did during the Cold War.

this sounds reasonable. however, I can see how their favor can easily tip towards China. our relationship with India, our involvement in the war on terror, China providing technological and economic benefits are all working against us.

S
any action against south korea is going to involve north korea as well. now, the two militaries combined are more than enough to overwhelm our forces in the area, especially since we are otherwise occupied elsewhere. I'm pretty sure the Chinese would be willing to support their Korean allies if a war were to ever occur, as our response would be limited.

You'd be surprise just how effective a few B2s can be. Again, we wouldn't have to directly engage them. I also think you're overestimating just how happy the PRC is with Kim Jong Il. They've yanked the leash on him several times when he ran his mouth too much.


As cynical about them as I am, even I have to hope they'd be more active in that. If they let china run through a sovereign nation simply because they like the trade relationship, the orginaztion is sunk at that exact moment

what do you think the Security Council would have to say? Russia and China are both permanent members. besides, what did the UN do during, say, the Darfur massacres? weren't French economic interests involved there?

You are seriously over estimating that relationship.

not as much as you might think. a common enemy and a common goal will do a lot to unite even the most ardent opponents. weapons treaties, economic agreements, unified anti-US sentiments, really, I think you underestimate that relationship.


I'd say Western Europe and the United States has just as much a chance to be a powerful influence in Russia as China.

agreed, but right now it's looking more like Russia is going to slide back into authoritarianism and into China's arms. like gay romance. I've personally written Russia off, but if we can continue to be the greatest economic and political influence on the Russians, I'll be quite happy.


Yes, but little by little, the human rights are increasing.

how so? one of the greatest backwards steps happened less than twenty years ago. I know twenty years is a long time for us, but not so much so for a country with little political evolution. and even more recently we see things like the crackdown on Falun Gong. economic freedom and human rights are definitely related, but not enough to make me think that China is becoming progressive.

The can say it all they want. They realize it just isn't going to happen.

they have a rapidly modernizing and absolutely bloated military, a huge working class, and are in an upward trend in education, especially in science and math. we have some serious problems that we need to fix if we want to stay on top. I'm not saying that the Chinese are in ANY position right now to be preeminent country in the world, but they WILL be in a position to supplant us if we're not careful.

I don't think you remember our doctrine from the Cold War. Mutually Assured Destruction. I have no idea how being turned into a radioactive wasteland suits them.

I remember it quite well, actually. I have no idea how being turned into a radioactive wasteland would suit them, but they balk at the idea. they think that they could survive such an exchange and that we couldn't. China is like the Sicilian in the Princess Bride. they think they've outsmarted us.

Just how would they escape unscathed?

I'm not saying they would, but they're willing to take it that far.

An enemy they are going to have to coexist with. I'm not saying roll over and take their shit, but you gotta realize that a fight with them over some hardliner blowing wind just isn't to anyone's advantage.

it's not just one hardliner though. it's pretty obvious that China is aggressively positioning themselves to become THE power in Asia, and most likely they'll continue to try for world dominance. right now they're doing it quietly; bait with money, threaten with violence, play it off politically, etcetera, but I have no doubt that they'll become more belligerent as they grow stronger.


I guess China's superiority or inferiority in terms of market has very little to do with if it's threatening or not. Just by existing, and by growing, it's a threat to the US. This is what I read behind Italian's posts in this thread, that constant fear of opposition, an urge to preemptively destroy a potential threat. Power for Security, to quench the primordial need of safety.

interesting.

I don't really want to see China destroyed, but I do want to see the US maintain her position as the world's most powerful nation. in fact, I want to incorporate other nations like Canada, the UK, etc. into, not necessarily the US, but into a relationship different than any that currently exist. China is a threat to the current order or the world, a country that's fairly morally and ethically bankrupt. one that won't shy away from murdering millions and destroying the standard of living for countless others to acheive their goals.

this probably wasn't very clear, but I'm on my way out the door. I'll probably clarify later.

[theapportioner]

Barring catastrophe, China (and India) will eventually eclipse the United States as economic powerhouses. Too much human capital there. I doubt the PRC will blow it on foolhardy aggression.

[theapportioner]

I don't really want to see China destroyed, but I do want to see the US maintain her position as the world's most powerful nation. in fact, I want to incorporate other nations like Canada, the UK, etc. into, not necessarily the US, but into a relationship different than any that currently exist. China is a threat to the current order or the world, a country that's fairly morally and ethically bankrupt. one that won't shy away from murdering millions and destroying the standard of living for countless others to acheive their goals.

A page from "The Clash of Civilizations"?

[theapportioner]

The Economist has an interesting piece on the Chinese economy (seems like they have one every week these days) - http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4221685

[Nom]

Let’s see – Taiwan is basically, strategically a US economic and political foothold right outside China’s border. Anyone remember the Cuban missile crisis? We didn’t even let Russia get close enough to us to breathe down our necks; but we have Taiwan wrapped around our little finger, and China has no right to be pissed? OK.

[soundtest]

*BANGS GONG*

China will become a superpower and eventually (50 years? 100?) will surpass the US. This is inevitable. As important as their booming economy is their unity. One common goal and one common people. The huge political divide in the US is a virus that is eating it away from the inside. (North) Americans are fat, lazy, stupid, and complacent. The Chinese laugh at the fact that North Americans think they envy or want to be like us! Reality TV. It's a metaphor.

China has gone through generations of shit and suffering, and its people now see a light at the end of the tunnel. This motivates them even more and nothing will stop them. The US had its peak and its getting time to step aside or be pushed aside. No empire can last forever.

China will never let go of Taiwan - it can't. Its strategic geographic location alone is far too important to China's future. Instead, China will continue to wait patiently for 'peaceful reunification'. It will strike only if it is attacked by Taiwan (an 'internal' problem) or if there is outside (US) interference. Then again, one can only wonder how patient Beijing can be... Taiwan will not be getting a better offer than 'one country, two systems'.

:bow

[Nom]

Indeed, soundtest. Well said, thank you.

[El Blanco]

*BANGS GONG*

China will become a superpower and eventually (50 years? 100?) will surpass the US. This is inevitable.

Likely. Nothing is inevitable. A lot can happen over a century. What if the Cantonese become nationalistic? What if Tibet's freedom becomes a major issue in the UN?


What about India and Russia's role in all this. One is just emerging as a major economic power. The other is spiraling into anarchy.

As important as their booming economy is their unity. One common goal and one common people.

Ya, thats the official government position

The huge political divide in the US is a virus that is eating it away from the inside.

Dude, we've gove through two constitutions, a full blown Civil War and a whole bunch of armed rebellions. No matter what Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore want us to believe, we'll weather this.

(North) Americans are fat, lazy, stupid, and complacent.

Hey, buddy, feel free to go fuck yourself.

The Chinese laugh at the fact that North Americans think they envy or want to be like us! Reality TV. It's a metaphor.

I don't get it? They buy our television shows, our music, our movies and a whole other shitload of parts of our pop culture. There's obvously something there.

China has gone through generations of shit and suffering, and its people now see a light at the end of the tunnel.

Assuming they'll know what to do when they get there.

This motivates them even more and nothing will stop them. The US had its peak and its getting time to step aside or be pushed aside. No empire can last forever.

I don't hear Brumhilda warming up quite yet. Remember, the US is different from the vast majority of superpowers that have existed. Our neighbors are our best friends and trading partners, we are damn near impossible to invade, and we can dominate another nation without firing a shot. To say the time is up is way too premature.


China will never let go of Taiwan - it can't. Its strategic geographic location alone is far too important to China's future.

Thats why the US has that bargaining chip.

Instead, China will continue to wait patiently for 'peaceful reunification'. It will strike only if it is attacked by Taiwan (an 'internal' problem) or if there is outside (US) interference.

Not likely

Then again, one can only wonder how patient Beijing can be... Taiwan will not be getting a better offer than 'one country, two systems'.

They'll be patient.

:bow

If this were the Apollo, there would be a clown with a hook right about now.

[soundtest]

Replying in this manner gets very tedious very quickly. After this you're on your own unless you condense things a bit. ;)

Likely. Nothing is inevitable. A lot can happen over a century. What if the Cantonese become nationalistic? What if Tibet's freedom becomes a major issue in the UN?

A lot can happen. Cantonese becoming nationalistic? They already are. HK people consider themselves different and even more civilized than Mainland Chinese. Those in power in HK are in Beijing's back pocket. Tibet's freedom aready was a big issue - over and done. People are tired of that and Lollapalooza is over. :rolleyes


What about India and Russia's role in all this. One is just emerging as a major economic power. The other is spiraling into anarchy.

This isn't about India or Russia. What about Canada's role? Who cares?

Ya, thats the official government position

Go to China and speak with the locals. The majority of them feel exactly this way. Many Chinese are either completely apathetic or oblivious to what goes on in their Government. They don't give a rat's ass about politics. Ask about China's future however and watch their eyes beam. "This century belongs to China."


Dude, we've gove through two constitutions, a full blown Civil War and a whole bunch of armed rebellions. No matter what Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore want us to believe, we'll weather this.

Perhaps. Regardless, you're not unified and those who are rest on their laurels.


Hey, buddy, feel free to go fuck yourself.

Struck a nerve, huh? :lol


I don't get it? They buy our television shows, our music, our movies and a whole other shitload of parts of our pop culture. There's obvously something there.

I think you mean pirate your media and pop culture. The kids think it's cool. But they still think they're better than you.


Assuming they'll know what to do when they get there.

What? I can't tell if this is irony, arrogance, or ignorance. Please advise.


I don't hear Brumhilda warming up quite yet. Remember, the US is different from the vast majority of superpowers that have existed. Our neighbors are our best friends and trading partners, we are damn near impossible to invade, and we can dominate another nation without firing a shot. To say the time is up is way too premature.

I didn't say it's up. I said in 50-100 years it will be up.


Thats why the US has that bargaining chip.

Then be prepared to gamble.


Not likely

umm ok :rolleyes


They'll be patient.

Perhaps. China is all about patience. They know they will conquer. It's their destiny.


If this were the Apollo, there would be a clown with a hook right about now.

Indeed! Thank heavens you were up next to save the show with that one!

:lol