New Orleans

[mburbank]

I've just spent the last hour reading accounts of the huge mob of people at the convention enter, who have no food or water or evac, where people are dying; and a lot of coverage about the hospitals falling apart. I've read about looters and gunplay and people shooting at helicopters, which I think pretty much defines madness in this situation.

What I'm about to ask is from a totally niave standpoint so any one with any actual knowledge should chime in...

I known there's fair amount of people and energy and money trying to help out down there, but... this is the biggest disaster of my lifetime. It makes 9/11 look small by comparison. Shouldn't we be pouring everything we have into this? I mean, I know martial law has been declared, but shouldn't huge amounts of our armed forces be there now, shouldn't we be airlifting out huge numbers of people instead of busing some of them to Texas? It just seems to me the national presence is floundering here, and it's still hurricane season. What if another storm hits?

This should be a major, national emergency and I don't mean to say it's being ignored, but is this the best we can do? haven't we been supposedly preparing for huge scale disasters for four years now?

[GAsux]

I can address the military aspect. In terms of medical relief, search and rescue, and local transport the military was and is actively invovled. In terms of getting "heavies" in there to transport large numbers of people out, there's no where for them to land. You're still looking at having to bus them hours out of the area to a location you can fly in and out of. There's still the issue of where to put all the refugees too.

As for the law enforcement aspect, active duty folks are prevented from engaging in civil police matters outside military installations. Hence not seeing any active duty military folks being brought in to police the streets. The Guard units will have to do the bulk of the work in terms of restoring order.

I've been to New Orleans several times. I can understand given the relative poverty that most folks in the area live in along with the geography that no matter how many resources you mobilize it's going to be a long haul. As long as there is 10 feet of water on the ground you aren't going to be able to restore basic services. In addition, it will likely take days to clear roads, not to mention figure a way in and out via the 10 which is virtually the only major thoroughfare in and out of the city as it's been completely destroyed in some places.

[mburbank]

Thanks for the info.

I've only been to New Orleans once, but I was really taken with the place and I'm finding this all pretty horrible.

Couldn't we air drop (lower from copters) food, water and medicine to at least the folks at them convention center? Why is there no govt, presence there? Reports from the scene are that there's no agency there taking charge of anything or giving out any information, and keep in mind, these folks can't get on the internet, get a paper or turn on the TV. I'm sure it's a logistical nightmare but it just seems to be going very slowly especilly concidering that we're supposed to have been gearing up for big time diosasters.

[GAsux]

Yeah Im not sure on the FEMA end of it, again Im only familiar with the military end of it. I'm guessing the scale is so large that they're still tryin to establish some kind of command and control over the situation.

If you've worked in and around any government agency, it would likely give you some indication as to the level of beuracracy and nonsense that afflicts it at almost every level. Ive seen citiest "war-game" disaster scenarios on a small scale (plane crash, terrorist attacks, etc) and even on such a small scale the coordination between rescue, law enforcement, medical, infrastructure, etc was an absolute nightmare.

Not sure why they haven't explored the option of air dropping supplies in as they can do that with a high level of accuracy.

I spent a few months living in Biloxi and have some friends there. Im shocked by the devastation in the pictures. To be honest I think they're/we're lucky in a sense that it hit where it did because we're really only dealing with one major metropolitan area. Imagine if more than one large city had been affected at the same time.

[doopa]

It's unbelievable. There is just no excuse for it

http://www.ameratsu.com/media/vid/msnbc/msnbc_katrina_no_covention_center_tony _zambado_050901a.wmv

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Anderson-Cooper-Landrieu-Katrina1.wmv

[mburbank]

Yeah, FEMA is now saying they didn't know anyone was at the convention center until Yesterday.

I think if that was the truth, I'd be quiet about it. 'Cause it was on the TV.

[Skulhedface]

I don't know much about the political or even military ramifications of the situation in New Orleans, but since I'm probably the person on the boards who lives closest to the situation I can tell you about how it's affecting us all personally.

While I think the state as a whole feels betrayed by the government, I must say that on the whole the people of Louisiana really did impress me. I never knew any of the people I knew were the volunteer-types until I'd run into several of them at the Cajundome at one point or another helping out. It actually brought a smile to my face, because on the surface we're all sarcastic assholes but deep down we do want to do the right thing.

The situation in New Orleans... well, all I know is that the presence of the Armed Forces is sorely needed, as New Orleans has basically been picked dry and it's actually spread out of the city as far as the capital. I live two hours away from New Orleans and even we're starting to feel the effects of it.

I know my sister attends college and her professors are giving all the students warnings about traveling alone simply because the situation is escalating in Baton Rouge, and in a western direction we're the biggest city next in line. Baton Rouge has problems now with looters, vultures and just plain carjackers shooting people after they fill up their cars with gas and taking off with the cars.

We could use the national guard in New Orleans, perhaps, but just as much in the surrounding areas, as it is starting to spread and becoming a much bigger problem.

My father and I discussed New Orleans being rebuilt and he said it'd be stupid not to, not just for our state's economy but for the nation's as well, as a good 25% of all oil is imported/refined in New Orleans. Without it, since Louisiana is barely hanging on by a thread as is, we may as well be New Alabama.

One would think the government would be paying MUCH closer attention to this.

[doopa]

Everyone should hear this:

http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=19136

[doopa]

yep max:

"Mike Brown tells CNN he didn't know the New Orleans Convention Center was being used as a staging area for evacuees until he saw news coverage"

how the holy fuck! it's all so unbelievable and just disgusting

[VinceZeb]

Just dropping food into areas would cause more trouble than it is worth. The armed mobs would take it over and the people that need it the most (women, children, the sick, the old) wouldn't get jack shit.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

People need to donate. Donate whatever you can.

http://www.redcross.org/
http://www.nationalservice.gov/about/donations/index.asp
http://www.ob.org/
http://www.salvationarmyusa.org/
http://www.feedthechildren.org/site/PageServer?pagename=dotorg_homepage
http://www.bnaibrith.org/
http://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/

Pick your favorite!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Just dropping food into areas would cause more trouble than it is worth. The armed mobs would take it over and the people that need it the most (women, children, the sick, the old) wouldn't get jack shit.

You're absolutely right. Before we can start providing relief services, someone needs to maintian order there.

We need someone capable, with the instincts of a cougar, and the strength of a bear. The miltary isn't cutting it, nor is the police.

No, we need.....a samurai. Nay, a Catholic samurai. Someone who will kick ass, take charge, and simply tell it like it is. But where can we find such a scholar/poet/warrior...? WHERE???

[Abcdxxxx]

Where are these mobs of people shooting shit up? Because you would think if this was all so rampant, we'd get to see some of it on tv like we're seeing everything else... so I don't buy it... it's just a diversion, to blame the victims trying to survive.

[VinceZeb]

Just dropping food into areas would cause more trouble than it is worth. The armed mobs would take it over and the people that need it the most (women, children, the sick, the old) wouldn't get jack shit.

You're absolutely right. Before we can start providing relief services, someone needs to maintian order there.

We need someone capable, with the instincts of a cougar, and the strength of a bear. The miltary isn't cutting it, nor is the police.

No, we need.....a samurai. Nay, a Catholic samurai. Someone who will kick ass, take charge, and simply tell it like it is. But where can we find such a scholar/poet/warrior...? WHERE???

Maybe you should just quit being a fucking dipshit and do what I did... donate money and time.

Wait, that would mean putting money where mouth is located. Something you aren't all that skilled at.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

How would you even be capable of knowing what I've done and will do? You did see the post about links to where you can donate, right? Would you like a copy of my receipt? Will that convince you that I care just as much as you do, Sensei?

[Cosmo Electrolux]

Just dropping food into areas would cause more trouble than it is worth. The armed mobs would take it over and the people that need it the most (women, children, the sick, the old) wouldn't get jack shit.

You're absolutely right. Before we can start providing relief services, someone needs to maintian order there.

We need someone capable, with the instincts of a cougar, and the strength of a bear. The miltary isn't cutting it, nor is the police.

No, we need.....a samurai. Nay, a Catholic samurai. Someone who will kick ass, take charge, and simply tell it like it is. But where can we find such a scholar/poet/warrior...? WHERE???

Maybe you should just quit being a fucking dipshit and do what I did... donate money and time.

Wait, that would mean putting money where mouth is located. Something you aren't all that skilled at.

I think you're a fucking liar......I can say with a degree of certainty that you've never donated anything in your entire miserable life...nor have you ever shown anything even remotely resembling compassion...so shut the fuck up and go fix your goddamned web site....

[Geggy]

i'm already donating enough as i fill up the tank of my car with gas every other day. that leaves me with little left to donate to one of these websites.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Then see what's going on locally by you. Maybe a church or firehouse is throwing together a clothing and/or can drive. I'm sure there's at least one can of beans in the cupboard you aint touchin.

[mburbank]

"I think it puts into question all of the Homeland Security and Northern Command planning for the last four years, because if we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?" said former House Speaker Newt Gingrich.



When Newt Ginsrich and I agree on something, it's true. That's a law of physics.

And Vinth. You make a powerful and persuasive argument for not dropping food and water. The strongest and worst people would grab it and use it for their own profit. What we need in their is some sort of structure to protect the weak from the strong and make sure all the goods are divided based on peoples needs. I think if some people have more goods than others, they should be forced by some system of... I don't know what to call it... to share what they have.

[Sacks]

Where are these mobs of people shooting shit up? Because you would think if this was all so rampant, we'd get to see some of it on tv like we're seeing everything else... so I don't buy it... it's just a diversion, to blame the victims trying to survive.

Because everyone is jumping at the chance to try to catch some maniacs shooting shit up on tape.

[Abcdxxxx]

Because noboy ever reports from war zones, or sniper shoot outs ever. We've never seen bullets being shot on TV before, I guess.

I could be very wrong, but my guess is the hooligans and snipers are more rumor then anything, with some sporadic incidents that the authorities flipped out over - and as a result, they created copycats who wanted in on that action because they're desprate. That reporters & officials weren't able to differentiate between crime and survival makes all claims of unlawful behavior suspect to me.

[VinceZeb]

"I think it puts into question all of the Homeland Security and Northern Command planning for the last four years, because if we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?" said former House Speaker Newt Gingrich.



When Newt Ginsrich and I agree on something, it's true. That's a law of physics.

And Vinth. You make a powerful and persuasive argument for not dropping food and water. The strongest and worst people would grab it and use it for their own profit. What we need in their is some sort of structure to protect the weak from the strong and make sure all the goods are divided based on peoples needs. I think if some people have more goods than others, they should be forced by some system of... I don't know what to call it... to share what they have.

Oh, I get it! You are supposed to lead me to say something about socialism, which is something I have a quote about in my sig. You have a little chuckle, then after this response you post what it says on my old web site and you go back to being worthless and stupid.

Gotcha.

[maggiekarp]

I don't think it's important how much help you're giving more than another, so much as help is being given.

[nothing4buddha]

I agree, donate what you can. I donated 15 to red cross the other day and when i got paid today i donated another 20. A little bit really goes a long way.

[sadie]

i was crying today on the way home from work after climbing inside an imaginary survivor's skin.

it's hard enough trying to be a good mom when it's about instilling respect and self-control. it's tears at me inside to imagine being in that devastation. nowhere to sleep. no food to eat. no shoes on their feet. and people gone lunatics with big guns.

a guy was on npr, saying he'd been sleeping on his grandparents' tomb to avoid the cottonmouths slithering around the unearthed caskets everywhere.

[CaptainBubba]

Really from everything I've heard it sounds like it would be worth a few people's time to travel to New Orleans with arms and give people weapons to defend themselves. Recently the prison there was taken over by inmates and people are being held hostage. If the government can't rectify this then the people should be able to. This is kinda a textbook example of justification of the second amendment, but with just the crooks armed and no vigilantes its awfully grim. :/

[Abcdxxxx]

It's all rumor. I'd love to read something that substantiates all the sniper talk. Seems it's just a divergence. I can't find any reports that aren't based on heresay.

[swimini]

what a tragedy.

I was left utterly speechless by much of the news footage. especially the footage showing a helicopter landing and ditching some bottles of water and food, no one got out of the helicopter and no attempt was made to organise the supplies. A mother with a 7 week old baby got nothing.
A few blocks over the local police were aiming their guns at looters.

what the fuck?

I understand the nature of the disaster made it difficult to get to people, but there was aid on the ground in Indonesia 48 hours after the tsunami, America is the superpower, why isn't it acting like one? I feel so sorry for those poor people, they lost family members, their homes, and businesses. And with the lack of help they received, they must feel crushed and betrayed by the goverment.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

It's all rumor. I'd love to read something that substantiates all the sniper talk. Seems it's just a divergence. I can't find any reports that aren't based on heresay.

Wait, are you serious? Do you mean there's nothing to substantiate that a particular incident went down, or that there isn't any proof of shots and gunfire period?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/09/02/katrina.hospitals/

That mentions two shooting incidents at Charity. Is it heresay? I dunno, but it certainly doesn't sound to me like the rescue workers there are looking for a "divergence."

[Abcdxxxx]

AP has now reported that at least some of the shooting was from people stuck in their attics trying to get help.

Again, that report at the hospital is hearesay... the gunmen haven't been identified, and there are no photographs...they just hear shots.
How do we know it's not friendly fire due to miscommunication, and paranoia between the Police, and other armed authorities? We don't, just like I can't say it wasn't a drug addict trying to get morphine... but they're acting like there was a race riot going on, and it's garbage.

First reponders needed an excuse to cover their ass for the late response, and their own fears of the demographic. I'm sure a few people were cracked out or just being rowdy cause they're screwed in the head, but the city wasn't overrun. There are people who just don't believe that many Black people can be gathered in one place without unruly behavior. Red Cross refused to go in. Evacuations were suspended at times. People who make it their jobs to go into battle zones and provide aid, refused to provide aid!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I agree with you about the over-hyped "race riot" nonsense. However, in a situation like this, expecting that they should have photos of gunmen, or verifiable proof that gunmen were shooting randomly rather than at choppers, seems a bit much to ask under these conditions.

If its people trying to signal for help, ok, but we don't have any way to verify that. So DON'T shoot your guns if you have one...!

But I agree on one premise with you-- meet peoples immediate needs, and they won't turn crazy. You're right.

About people being frigtened of entering black areas-- I don't doubt that to be true, but I think you're exaggerating the case. These people know their job, and there are a lot of people risking life & limb, dangling from helicopters, pulling people out of danger....whether they're black, white, or whatever. So whereas I think, like you mentioned, that the stories of looting, gun battles, and anarchy are exaggerated, so is the notion that these things were simply some contrived divergence on the part of mildly racist aid workers.

[Abcdxxxx]

I think rescue workers wanted to get in there and ...rescue. The authorities, and their parent organizations stopped them. You're going into a disaster zone...it's not going to be safe. It's not going to be secure.

It's not a matter of preferential treatment. The fears were racially motivated, by people who thought these stories were realistic. Most of the reports defy logic, and if they happened, we should expect details. We have photos of everything, including the looting... but I don't see footage of people dragging out TV's ...and I don't see footage of "crunked out shootouts". I think it's very unlikely it happened on a level that will ever justify "securing the city" as a priority. On the contrary, I see a "rerengade bus driver" who should be a hero. I see a family being stopped in a stolen vehicle, and the Father handcuffed. I heard the mayor saying he was putting 1500 police officers on the ground just to fight crime, not rescue. In the USA, people that were supposed to be rescued and provided for were under military lockdown instead. Why? Because they're Black, and there were rumors of chaos....which in turn created chaos.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You're right, but I don't think the looting and shooting should be ignored, disregarded, or simply considered hearsay.

As you noted, we have footage of the looting, we see the conditions, we know people are desperate. it isn't too hard to believe that desperate people are doing desperate, perhaps even criminal things, right?

[Abcdxxxx]

I can differentiate between survival and crime. I didn't see the looting of electronics, but I guess it happened. The footage I saw showed peope taking neccessaties...even the clothes and shoes.

I don't see much credebility or logic behind subtly criminalizing the victims here...and I think that's what's going on.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I think you're on point about most of this, so there's no need to really debate.

The crime and "gang" type stuff supposedly was happening, at least according to the police superintendent.

I guess my overall thoughts on this are that New Orleans has/had roughly 1,500 cops. If even every singly one of those cops totally ignore violence and looting, they'd STILL be at an absolute disadvantage in meeting the disaster needs there. Now your talking about a city that already had one of the highest murder rates in the country, and a surging drug problem. It isn't too hard to believe that a degree of "anarchy" has and is going on.

With that being said, I think you're right, if needs were met sooner, violence probably would've been pretty isolated (more so than it presumably already is).

[Abcdxxxx]

yeah i agree, they were under staffed, and new orleans has some rough areas.... if we factor in the amount of people just detoxing off some form of narcotic alone, we can presume there was some wild behavior.... but all said it seems like the people did an amazing job policing themselves, and came together. it's inspiring really. Those 1500 cops could have been put to far better use.