too much god

[george]

there is too much god on tv. every time i change a channel, they are chatting about god :(

and how much he LOVES america.

i dont believe in god, and i dont trust anyone who uses god as an excuse for their activities.

make it stop.

[kinot]

To believe in God is one thing. But to believe that God himself controls everything (which could include ourselves) is another. Bah, Im a bit too tired to discuss right now because I am a bit tired so I will try to keep it short. Claiming how God guides your life is just as much as debating about the Free will VS. Determinism subject.

Thanks for bringing up the subject, George. The old philosophy forum was wayyy too much with politics and not enough of the religion/sociology/philosophy

[ItalianStereotype]

in my opinion, god makes himself obvious to everybody in different ways, it is up to the individual to recognize him. unfortunately it becomes much more difficult with human interference. a decadent society and a liberal cultural revolution are destroying religion here in america.

[Jixby Phillips]

BEING AN AMERICAN MAKES YOU GO TO HEAVEN :)

[ItalianStereotype]

JUST LIKE SUICIDE :)

[Jixby Phillips]

UHH THAT SOUNDS FAMILIAR, WHOS THE UNORIGINAL HERE :rolleyes

[ItalianStereotype]

I LOVE YOU JIXBY, I AM YOUR OFFICIAL STALKER :/

[sadie]

why don't you believe in god, george?

[Jixby Phillips]

DO YOU BELEIVE IN GOD, SADIE :lol

HOW DOES HE EXIST, MAGIC OR SOMETHING??? :lol :lol

WATCH OUT SADIE HERE COMES THE TOOTH FAIRY, COME TO SEND YOUR BABY TEETH TO HEAVEN :lol :lol :lol

[sadie]

:lol
actually, i'm pretty much agnostic. i don't NOT believe in god. i'm looking for answers, you could say.

and the bloody head fairy kicks the tooth fairy's arse.

[Geggy]

God is Loooove and Love is Gaaaaaawd! Oh, yes, praise the Lord!

[James]

The other night, I saw an evangelist infomercial, where the "healer" gave this old black lady the power to get up and walk (how original).

Unfortunately, the power of God could not remove THE MUSTACHE THAT SHE HAD. I'm serious, it was a full-on mustache. Not just some whiskers here and there.

So where's your God now? :(

[LegoLars]

I don't know if theres a god. Im looking for answers but i have not found any. why would god, with so much love, create so much hate?

[Geggy]

Satan is haaaaaaate and hate is Saaaaaaaatan! Oh, yes, get on your knees and bow to the big man!

[Ronnie Raygun]

ITA,

"a decadent society and a liberal cultural revolution are destroying religion here in america."

Churches are doing enough damage on their own. Their have to bear the majority of the responsibliity.

Just look at the Catholics right now. It's awful.

.....I understand your point though.

[george]

jixby hit pretty close to the truth as far as i am concerned.

i just cant believe that there is some special magical thing waiting to help me. there are just too many bad things that i have seen or have happened to me for me to believe. every bad situation i have been in i have worked my ass off to get out of. no one, with the exception of a few family members and friends has helped me. no divine intervention, nothing.

i dont feel sorry for myself, but i have learned to rely on myself. there is no magic government, or jesus, that can make things better, only people can do that. and from what i have seen, i believe that there is a thin layer of civilization, over a boiling pot of insane in this world.

and it scares me when my government is telling me to rely on the magic man to fix things when they take over a third of my paycheck as payment for THEM to do their fucking job.

[Ronnie Raygun]

Bush never said that GOD should take the place of govt.'s responsibility.

He and many other Americans are Christian. The American public knew that when he was running for office. Why should he now stop being himself just because he's president?

" every bad situation i have been in i have worked my ass off to get out of. no one, with the exception of a few family members and friends has helped me. no divine intervention, nothing. "

I think you see the flaw in that.

You would have no way of knowing if GOD helped you or not anyway......unless you had that relationship.

[Miss Modular]

Personally I believe in God, but I can see why someone like George might not.

I believe in God to help me get through the day and persist with my goals. I pray a lot, even if s/he doesn't always come through for me. But unlike Jerry Falwell or Ronnie, I don't take offense to people who don't. What works for me doesn't necessarily work for everyone.

[Ronnie Raygun]

Miss Mod, you don't speak for me.

I don't take offense either.......afterall, I didn't myself once upon a time.

[mburbank]

Oooooh! Naldo's hinting at one of them there "Road to Damascus" type experiences.

I believe in God. I'm not sure to what extent God believes in us.

[El Blanco]

there is too much god on tv. every time i change a channel, they are chatting about god :(



What exactly are you watching?

What I see on TV is all about the god called Myself.

It preaches what is good for you must be right. Fast, cheap sex (even though we know that is dangerous). Your parents are stupid and out of touch because they try to limit you. Possessions make you happy. All that matters in the end is if you are comfortable and have the most stuff.

[Protoclown]

I most certainly believe in God. But I am quite sick about hearing about how God is on OUR side, on the American Team. God is not on our side, he is on EVERYONE'S side.

[Ronnie Raygun]

I agree.

It's whether or not WE are on GOD's side.

[El Blanco]

Holy shit. Ronnie and Protclown in agreement? This cannot be. The world has turned upside down. Black is white! Up in down!

[Protoclown]

I was kind of surprised about that too, until I remembered that I'm actually an evil clone sent by the Raelians from the future to kill you all.

[El Blanco]

Evil clone? Or evil clown?

[Protoclown]

Perhaps it could be...both?

[george]

there is no contradiction there ronnie, i try hard to be an honest, kind, and friendly person. i treat people with respect, and have managed to make a few decent friends along the way. that is not god, that is me. as for family, when you have been through hard times, and childhood with people you never walk away from them cause they are part of you and how you think. again, that is me, not god.

i have talked with how i feel about this with proto. i want to believe there is something more, some link that ties us all togehter in the end. that i can pray and hope for a better world and that somehow the people who need it will be blessed. but, i have no faith, just hope.

but when i watch the news and george bush is going on and on about god, and going on and on about us needing to pray to god, and the news always going on about this church, or that church, and pushing the magic man to make things feel better i get the sick feeling they are trying to keep me calm long enough to get three inches into me.

[Ronnie Raygun]

Look, he's not talking to you personally. He's talking to us as a nation. And the majority of people in this country including the prez. believe in GOD.

If you don't, that's cool.

That doesn't mean everyone else has to shut up about it.

[mburbank]

Trust me, they are not on the same side. You are reading N;ado incorrectly. Ask naldo if he thinks it's possible for a Hindu, Bhuddist, Mulsim or in fact anyone who does not accept jesus Christ as their personal savior to be on God's side. I think the difference of opinion will be greatly illuminated.

[Helm]

I am an agnostic. I hold reason the greatest asset of the human mind, and with it, such ultimate terms like all-powerfulness we like to attribute to god are shown to be fallacies.

I believe faith to be a man-made contraption created so as shake off the overwhelming fear that there's no absolute purpose for humanity, and that it's actually up to said humanity to make a purpose for itself. I also believe faith to be some sort of sanctuary from the fear of death. I fear death as well, but do not claim to understand either the why, or how.

I am also an ethical relativist, and as such, I believe the notion of a God dictating what is good and true for all, a base fairytale for people that choose to be simple themselves.

If some sort of higher intelligence exists, it is neither all-powerful, nor a thing of universal goodness, and definately not here to make you feel better.

[Jixby Phillips]

SO HOW DOES GOD STAY IN THE SKY DOES HE HAVE A JETPACK OR SOMETHING :x :x :x

[AChimp]

I hate how people thank God or Jesus when they win awards. Why the fuck would God give a shit about an award when there are people suffering? And why would God help that person win as opposed to helping everyone else win, too?

I believe faith to be a man-made contraption created so as shake off the overwhelming fear that there's no absolute purpose for humanity, and that it's actually up to said humanity to make a purpose for itself.
Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits.

[Jixby Phillips]

IS GOD A GHOST OR SOMETHING?!?!? :lol

[theapportioner]

Atheist.






I suppose it is possible that a Christian (or other flavor of) god exists, but then I'd also have to concede the possibility that Galactus will try to eat the planet one day and that the Fantastic Four will have to save our asses. And even if there exists a more abstract, undefinable "higher intelligence", its actual existence would likely be utterly irrelevent to human reality.

[FS]

God is this beardy immortal old guy with an everlasting erection, who lives on the clouds and lays on his back all day while women cater to him. There's no men in heaven :( The only time he lifted a finger was to touch Adam to give him superpowers, turning him into He-Man. :(

On a serious note, sometimes I miss the feeling of believing there's a guy out there who'll make sure I'll turn out alright. It's a feeling I remember only from my childhood, but it was quite powerful and enpowering. Unfortunately, no matter what the zealots may think, it's infinitely more difficult for one to start believing than to stop believing.

Making God the posterboy for one's cause is a thing of all ages.

[Helm]

God is this beardy immortal old guy with an everlasting erection, who lives on the clouds and lays on his back all day while women cater to him. There's no men in heaven The only time he lifted a finger was to touch Adam to give him superpowers, turning him into He-Man.

What's not serious about that???

[posterchild]

This is what I think.
The idea of God was created by people because they need a reason to continue being good-hearted. People get tired of being "sin-free" when they are watching the hedonists soak up the self-gratification that being a sinner provides.
They start wondering why the hell they follow the straight and narrow when nobody else is.

This is where God comes in...

The notion of an eternity of jubilation in exchange for a life-span of purity is the incentive to remain unsoiled amongst all of the filthy filthy souls destined for fire and brimstone.

Not only that, but God serves as a wonderful answer to any question that can't be answered indefinately. Who created me? Who decides my destiny? Who put the stars in the sky?
Duh, if you can't figure it out it must have been God.

This, of course, is only my opinion...

[Helm]

Only nitpicking, but it's actually the other way around. The hedonists decided to break out of the ethical norm. Gods of all kinds, and their moral dictates and their followers existed before that.

Now if by hedonists you're speaking broadly about any sort of man that operates outside of christian(or whatever) morality, then supposedly yeah, they predate gods.


However, you make a valid case as to religion being defensive tactics to ethical subjectivism, but that happened much later in the french revolution.

[AChimp]

Deities have traditionally been created to explain things that humans cannot or will not (as in refuse to) comprehend. You can see this plainly in the polytheistic religions where they have gods for every known phenomenon.

"Hey! It hasn't rained for weeks and our crops are dying." :eek
"Zartok the Wet must be angry with us!" :(
"Let's sacrifice a goat to Ko'chal so the ground becomes more fertile." :)
"I think it's not raining because we live in a fucking desert." :/
"KILL THE BLASPHEMER!!!!!" >:

[Helm]

Achimp: :)

[womanwithballs]

Deities are also created to control the believers through guilt and fear. It's the same thing as a "societal norm." Do what is expected of you and you will spend your life on earth as a normal (gasp) person and in a paradise after you die. PFFFFFFFFTTTTTTT What a price to pay to fit in.

[ItalianStereotype]

point taken and rejected. shut the fuck up.

[AChimp]

Actually, the newbie has a valid point. >:

Religion has always, always, always turned into a source of power for the people in charge. If it didn't, there would never have been any conflict between the Catholic and Protestant churches when Luther came up with his new concept of Christianity while in the throes of agony brought on by chronic constipation.

Europe in the Middle Ages might as well have been a theocracy. Egyptian pharoahs were considered to be actual gods and had the ultimate level of power over absolutely everything. It's also been shown that the Sumerian priests had very strict control over their entire civilization.

EDIT: This actually reminds me of a quote some of my friends told me about. I think it's by William Blake:

"Your vision of Christ doth be my vision's greatest enemy."

[kinot]

I've always thought that God (If s/he does intervene with the universe) is as powerful as you want it to be :/. Anyways, I just don't like the whole "Muhammad is better than Jesus cause...." debate since it is practically Clash of the Titans again.
I have always thought about death when I was very young (I think about 2) , I cried for a bit, but then I came to this conclusion: "Worm Food". I told my mom about this and she kind of helped relieve my thanaphobia (sp?) by telling me that death is like life being asleep forever... (edit: Or you help nature by giving back nutrients/energy in the earth/universe. I can't remember)

I used to believe deeply in God in a way that he helps guide my life but I let myself overcome the fear of being punished of blasphemy in the afterlife. People overtime grant God for their abilities and successes but even when I did believe in an intervening God (I was once a Christian for 5 years :|) I have always thought, "That wasn't God, that was you! You should be more proud of yourself since it was only you that did it." Having God help you in your life is almost like cheating in a way. There are other people in this world that need God more than we would ever have.


ps. My thoughts on the afterlife has changed, but I dont want to go more in detail to that. The famous Epicurus quote about "death ceasing to exist" helps explain most of it.

psps. I know my sentence structuring is horrible :P

[GAsux]

"there is too much god on tv. every time i change a channel, they are chatting about god"

Where are you from? I never see Jenna Jameson on tv.

[womanwithballs]

At the risk of pissing off the Italian one, I'll speak again.

Why would any child do something to please a god that he cannot possibly comprehend? Why isn't doing the right thing good enough? Why do we need to have a fear of god or hell as an excuse to be "good"? I find the entire concept condescending. I'm going to do what I consider the right thing because it makes me feel good, not to secure my spot in heaven or keep me out of the fires of hell.

[Jixby Phillips]

THIS WOMAN HAS BALLS!!!!! :lol :lol :lol

[poopyone]

I hate how people thank God or Jesus when they win awards. Why the fuck would God give a shit about an award when there are people suffering?


He helps them win awards because starving people are ugly, and god HATES ugly people.

Sometimes, I don't wear pants. That's when I think to myself "maybe I should wear pants", then I brush it off as crazy talk.

[sadie]

thank GOD for that.

[Jixby Phillips]

GODS LAST NAME IS DAMMIT :x JUST KIDDING ITS AMERICA :)

[LegoLars]

I WANT TO BELIVE.
but i can't. Just like FS said, when i was younger, i found it comforting me. But there is so much that can be explained.
There are so many religions, people get killed because of religion. I don't want to support somthing that kills men. therfore i remain an aethist. We were put here for no reason, it's up to us to make our short stay worthwhile.

Life has no meaning, It won't matter if we die. you can't live forever.
If there was a god why did'nt s/he make us immortal from the begining? Since we are, due to religon, creatures created by god, why do we fear death?

:)

[sadie]

i wonder those things too. and why is it that the christians, who believe in a perfect heaven, are against abortion? these same people claim the world is evil, yet they fight for babies to enter it--even though they don't want to be burdened with welfare of them.

[Ronnie Raygun]

"I hate how people thank God or Jesus when they win awards. Why the fuck would God give a shit about an award when there are people suffering? And why would God help that person win as opposed to helping everyone else win, too?" - Chimp

If I were to accept an award like that (never will of course) I would thank GOD what ever ability I was given to achieve such an award.

I don't think GOD is concerned about who wins either.

[womanwithballs]

There is one other reason for creating god. What else would we scream in the throes of passion? :eek

[Anonymous]

"FACE"

[womanwithballs]

"Face?" That would depend on the position. heh heh heh

More people have been killed in the name of Christianity than any other religion. The bible is one bloody book. Anyone here ever checked out religioustolerance.org?

[MutantEnemyBullseye]

You would have no way of knowing if GOD helped you or not anyway......unless you had that relationship.

That is true, there is no way of knowing. There is also no way of knowing if spotted rhino's are trying to trip you ever time you walk down the stairs. Or if pianos are committing suicide by jumping out of windows nearly killing you every time you walk by a building.
If there's no way of proving that he's not there, there is no reason to believe he is.

Bush never said that GOD should take the place of govt.'s responsibility.

He and many other Americans are Christian. The American public knew that when he was running for office. Why should he now stop being himself just because he's president?

And yes, we all knew he was Christian. But we didn't know he was going to use his beliefs to justify what may happen because of his decisions, or to reassure us that everything is okay because God will save us in the end anyway. Not to mention that most people didn't vote for him anyway, so it's not like we are forced to accept his crap.

[LegoLars]

word

[womanwithballs]

I'm not going to deny anyone his/her right to believe the way they choose to believe. I will however, get a bit ticked if they try to convert me. I have christian friends. We get along fine because we respect each other's beliefs. There are people who tell me I'm going to hell, but then I expect I'd see them there (if I believed) for judging me so harshly.

[LegoLars]

since there are no hell to go to, why bother?

[Protoclown]

More people have been killed in the name of Christianity than any other religion. The bible is one bloody book. Anyone here ever checked out religioustolerance.org?

Uhhh...some figures, please? NOT that you just simply pulled that statement out of your ass of course, and not that MOST major religions are responsible for serious amounts of bloodshed. :rolleyes

If you didn't build a time machine and go on a whimsical voyage of discovery yourself, I'd love to know where you got these "facts".

[theapportioner]

Humans have created many of fictions to rationalize their bad behavior, religion being one of them. But, humans have also used fairy tales like patriotism, racism, nationalism, and even more liberal ideas such as equality and freedom, to justify badness. Don't lose sight of that.

[FS]

In the heat of passion, I usually cry out ":sunglasses"

[Helm]

LOL

[womanwithballs]

You want me to count how many people have been killed in the name of christianity? I don't have a clue. To be honest, my Death & Dying professor told us, but I don't remember. I'll ask my daughter. She has a much better memory than I do.

I won't lose sight of the fairy tales justifying badness, but we were discussing religion. I personally use equality and freedom to justify the GOOD things I do.

As a child, I used my boredom in Sunday school classes to justify hiding in the balcony until they were over.

FS, do you cry out "sunglasses" because your partner is so bright? (collective groan)

[Protoclown]

You want me to count how many people have been killed in the name of christianity?

No, I wanted to point out how impossible any sort of quantitative measure of how many people Chrisitianity has killed is, and thus illustrate how ridiculous your statement was.

Yes, Christianity has killed a LOT of people, but so have a LOT of others, including many that aren't even around anymore.

Who can say which is responsible for the MOST death? Nobody.

[Vibecrewangel]

God is just a word. A word created by man. A word used to describe a concept. Something bigger than us. Something that we to this day can not understand.

If you read the stories from different religions and you strip away the names, the general premis is the same. The concept itself is the same.

All we are really fighting over is who's word for the concept is the "correct" one. God, Allah, Zuse, Universe, Energy or Sunglasses....it doesn't matter. They are all nothing more than words. Man places far too much importance in the name as opposed to the meaning behind it.

[ItalianStereotype]

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

:explode :melt :maul :explode








:melt

[Vibecrewangel]

Oh Italian Stereotype....were you hoping I'd gone away for good?

;)

[womanwithballs]

Please name one religion that could possibly be accountable for more deaths than christianity. Not being controversial so much as curious. Give me something to argue with my professor.

I don't think our disagreement is about the name of the higher power, but whether or not the higher power exists at all. My husband is muslim, and he believes. Sometimes he says God and sometimes he says Allah. Same HP to him though.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

[quote="womanwithballs"]Please name one religion that could possibly be accountable for more deaths than christianity. Not being controversial so much as curious. Give me something to argue with my professor. [quote]

People do horrible things all the time in the name of something or other. It doesn't necessarily make the subject bad, it makes those people bad.

[Ninjavenom]

I heard about a snuff film where a bunch of hooded guys jerk off around a hunchbacked kid as he is pulled apart by four horses running. I think it was called "The Little Spermaid".

[El Blanco]

People die for all sorts of shit. People have died over children's sports, but no one wants to disolve Pop Warner football or calls it a blight on humanity.

Basically, every religion I have encountered breaks down into 2 simple rules:

Love God (whatever form you worship Him/Her/It in)

Love each other

Most of the other stuff builds off of that. Since religion has been around for thousands of years, there is a lot of silly rules we don't understand. Them, some nut takes a few of these rules, twists them out of their original meaning and uses them as excuses for horrible things.

The Declaration of Independance clearly states that all men are created equal. Of course we realize what context "men" is in. You will obviously write off someone who uses this as the basis for claiming women as inferior as someone who is miseterpretting the document.

[kinot]

Ninja

Ted McIlvanna, keeper of The Institute for the Advanced Study of Human Sexuality's collection of 289,000 sex movies and 100,000 videos, has seen only three on-camera deaths in 25 years of hard study. Two were accidents where not uncommon sorts of non-vanilla adventures went awry. The last was "a bizarre religious number from Morocco in which a hunchbacked kid was torn apart by wild horses while men stood around and masturbated".

http://www.urbanlegends.com/classic/snuff.films/snuff_films_cecil_adams.html :/

[Ninjavenom]

Straight Dope :love

[theapportioner]

allahu akbar!

[womanwithballs]

"People do horrible things all the time in the name of something or other. It doesn't necessarily make the subject bad, it makes those people bad."

According to this statement and our topic of discussion, it would appear that you are saying christians are bad. I don't think that's what you mean... Kids have been known to kill themselves while listening to Ozzy or Nirvana. Doesn't make Oz or Nirvana bad, but it does imply that the kids misconstrued the message in the songs. Just as messages in the bible are misconstrued. As a female living in the deep south, I see far too many instances where the bible is misconstued IMHO. Hell, the presidential gang wants to take highly personal choices away from women.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

According to this statement and our topic of discussion, it would appear that you are saying christians are bad. I don't think that's what you mean... Kids have been known to kill themselves while listening to Ozzy or Nirvana. Doesn't make Oz or Nirvana bad, but it does imply that the kids misconstrued the message in the songs. Just as messages in the bible are misconstrued. As a female living in the deep south, I see far too many instances where the bible is misconstued IMHO. Hell, the presidential gang wants to take highly personal choices away from women.

You just said basically what I said.

[theapportioner]

People need to watch t.a.t.u. videos

ALL THE THINGS SHE SAID


All the things she said
All the things she said
Running through my head
All the things she said
All the things she said
Running through my head
This is not enough

I'm in serious s--t, I feel totally lost
If I'm asking for help it's only because
Being with you has opened my eyes
Could I ever believe such a perfect surprise?

I keep asking myself, wondering how
I keep closing my eyes but I can't block you out
Wanna fly to a place where it's just you and me
Nobody else so we can be free

All the things she said
All the things she said
Running through my head
All the things she said
All the things she said
Running through my head
This is not enough
This is not enough

All the things she said
All the things she said

And I'm all mixed up, feeling cornered and rushed
They say it's my fault but I want her so much
Wanna fly her away where the sun and rain
Come in over my face, wash away all the shame
When they stop and stare - don't worry me
_Cause I'm feeling for her what she's feeling for me
I can try to pretend, I can try to forget
But it's driving me mad, going out of my head

Mother looking at me
Tell me what do you see?
Yes, I've lost my mind

Daddy looking at me
Will I ever be free?
Have I crossed the line?

[Dane Brammage]

:fart

[womanwithballs]

I did a bit of research to find out just how many people were killed in the name of christianity. While I didn't come up with an exact figure (maybe impossible?), I did find a few examples. Hitler was a christian...

Concern about rampant violence has become ever more central in public discussions in America recently, especially where it involves the nation's youth. Recent incidents of brutal and deadly attacks by children against children have prompted an intense debate as to the cause and solutions for what is perceived as degenerating culture. It is rather ironic that the increase in attention happens at a time when actual incidents of violence are decreasing. Not only are the general statistics of violence showing a dramatic decrease with increasing rates of decrease, but even violence against children is decreasing.

But it is a truism that exceptional cases make for bad law and bad legal precedents. Following along in parallel, the exceptional cases of youth violence are being used by opportunistic politicians and religious leaders to create genuinely bad laws. Simple people are searching for simple causes and simple solutions.

The simplest among them immediately claim that the cause for youth violence must be the lack of government supported religion in children's lives, so their natural conclusion is that our government should increase its involvement with religion. And not just any religion - Christianity is the first and usually only choice. Practical policy suggestions include daily prayers, bible readings, and the ever popular posting of the Ten Commandments.

It would perhaps be unacceptable in some circles to point out the fact that in many European countries, religion plays an even smaller role in people's lives than it does in America - yet levels of violence are lower than here. Were a lack of religion any sort of cause of violence, then we would find higher amounts of violence in countries like Germany rather than Ireland, where both religion and violence have been prominent in daily life.

Facts like this must lead any rational person to treat claim of religion as a solution to our ills - real or perceived - with real skepticism. Religion has in fact done even more to promote base inhumanity when it has become wedded to ruling political powers. It has been a common pattern throughout human history that wherever religious dogmas have gained worldly power, violence was abetted rather than stopped. Even if a person were to successfully argue that none of the violence was caused by religion, the fact would remain that religion not only failed to stop it, but has actually served as a useful tool for those perpetuating it.

Is Christianity only a religion of Peace and Love? I do not think that anyone can honestly and objectively examine American or European history and answer "yes" to that question. Christianity can encourage Peace and Love - but it certainly need not, and it quite often has done just the opposite. Although the people responsible for violence might have found a way to express their hatred without Christianity, it cannot be ignored that Christianity offers a convenient divine mandate for hatred and violent acts against a wide range of people.

As a reference for those who find that it is sometimes necessary to education others about the history of violence associated with Christianity, below is a list of links to various eras and incidents. In each case, religion has served as a principle catalyst for the violence or has, at the very least, assisted in justifying and perpetuating that violence.

Early History
Although it is often argued that violence during Christian history is simply an aberration which results from people who twisted the original Christian message, that may not be entirely true. Violent inclinations in Christianity are apparent right from the beginning.

Crusades
One of the most famous examples of religious violence in the Middle Ages is of course the Crusades - attempts by European Christians to impose their vision of religion upon Jews, Orthodox Christians, heretics, Muslims, and just about anyone else who happened to get in the way.

Inquistion
Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisition in 1231, and burning was quickly decided upon as the official Christian punishment. Administrators and Inquisitors were all answerable directly to the Pope - which essentially made him directly responsible for their actions.

Reformation
The Reformation was supposed to restore a more original and more pure form of Christianity. One of the results was the death of millions upon millions of Europeans during decades almost unprecedented religious violence.

Witches
Witches have long been feared and hated in Christian circles. Even today, pagans and Wiccans remain a target of Christian persecution and violence - even in America. It seems that they long ago took on an identity which reached far beyond their own existence and became a symbol for Christians - but a symbol of what?

Bible Wars
One sad bit of American and Christian history which few (if any) manage to learn about are the "Bible Wars" between Catholics and Protestants in the latter half of the 19th century. This is especially unfortunate because is remarkably resembles some of the issues which face us today with regards to having religion in public school. If it could lead to violence and death then, we should be wary today.

Holocaust
Was the Nazi Holocaust religious or was it secular? A bit of both, actually. Nazi oppression and massacres against political opponents and gypsies were obviously secular in nature - but the determination to exterminate the Jews from the face of the earth cannot possibly be understood without the background of centuries of persistent and violent Christian anti-semitism, generally encouraged by religious authorities.

Northern Ireland
The terrible combination of nationalism, politics and religion has had deadly consequences for the people living in Northern Ireland. Catholics and Protestants have been vilifying, attacking, torturing and killing each other in a seemingly endless cycle. What role does Christianity play in all of this violence?

Modern America
America in the 20th century has suffered from many violent incidents which can be traced back to Christianity. Some have been organized, others not so organized, but all the result of specifically violent or dangerous doctrines promoted in Christian churches.

Jonesboro & Paducah
Commentary on the school violence which occurred in Jonesboro and Paducah. Would more religion in the schools have prevented the violent outbursts, as some religious leaders claim?

[womanwithballs]

Thanks apportioner. The chances of me watching a video are slim, but I appreciate the lyrics.

[Helm]

Please tell me you have better things to do that ask your computer questions like "Do snuff films exist?".

[Protoclown]

Please name one religion that could possibly be accountable for more deaths than christianity. Not being controversial so much as curious. Give me something to argue with my professor.


I honestly don't know. It's very possible that Christianity IS responsible for more deaths than any other religion, I just thought it was a rather presumptuous claim to have made without a lot of careful study going into ALL major religions.

You've certainly done your homework on Christianity though, I will grant you that. I however would personally hesitate to assign such a title to any religion seeing as how my knowledge of them is admittedly limited.

[Helm]

It's funny 'cause I think that claim is actually valid, Proto, although I can't provide any hard fact other than reading it in E.R.Dodds "Ethics and Christians in a Time of Agony" (title and spelling translated from my greek copy - could be different in english) and other History books, including my school's official one.

[george]

how do these things always turn anti christian? ALL RELIGON IS FRAUD. all of it. every one of them.


i started this because i am sick of the media pushing god as the solution to answers and i am sick of it.

in fifty words or less, without using the word FAITH or Belief. give me a reason to take God seriously.

[ItalianStereotype]

Hitler was a christian...

Early History
Although it is often argued that violence during Christian history is simply an aberration which results from people who twisted the original Christian message, that may not be entirely true. Violent inclinations in Christianity are apparent right from the beginning.

incorrect. early christianity didnt have the strength to be a violent religion. certain christians were violent, such as the nords, but not in the name of christianity. besides, violence was THE way of life in the day.

Hitler didnt do what he did in the name of christianity, he did it for the germanic peoples.

Crusades
One of the most famous examples of religious violence in the Middle Ages is of course the Crusades - attempts by European Christians to impose their vision of religion upon Jews, Orthodox Christians, heretics, Muslims, and just about anyone else who happened to get in the way.

incorrect. the crusades were established to defend the holy land from the saracens who conquered it from the jews. aside from a few notables like Richard of Champagne, the saracen muslims were twice as violent as the crusaders. ex: slaughtering the woman and children of acre as an example to the christian pilgrims, or the burning alive of the surrendered knights templar. with the saracens, if you couldnt pay ransom, you died. this was not the case with the christians, check your sources.

Inquistion
Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisition in 1231, and burning was quickly decided upon as the official Christian punishment. Administrators and Inquisitors were all answerable directly to the Pope - which essentially made him directly responsible for their actions.

unfortunately you have the right of this. while it was not a catastrophic murder spree, this IS one of the worst moments of christian history.

Reformation
The Reformation was supposed to restore a more original and more pure form of Christianity. One of the results was the death of millions upon millions of Europeans during decades almost unprecedented religious violence.

you are referring to the violence against the protestants? such as the huguenots in france? the very ones who were rebelling and demanding the overthrow of the catholic king? what would you do if you were a medieval king facing a civil war? you would capture or kill the rebels, which is exactly what happened. besides, there werent MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of people in europe at the time.

Witches
Witches have long been feared and hated in Christian circles. Even today, pagans and Wiccans remain a target of Christian persecution and violence - even in America. It seems that they long ago took on an identity which reached far beyond their own existence and became a symbol for Christians - but a symbol of what?

you dont seem to understand that witches were shunned by ALL religions. today if you asked the average christian they will tell you that they dont believe in witches. you have a very archaic view of christianity.

Bible Wars
One sad bit of American and Christian history which few (if any) manage to learn about are the "Bible Wars" between Catholics and Protestants in the latter half of the 19th century. This is especially unfortunate because is remarkably resembles some of the issues which face us today with regards to having religion in public school. If it could lead to violence and death then, we should be wary today.

i havent heard of these. you would think that any religious topic that caused a wave of death wouldnt have escaped all the european history classes i have taken.

Holocaust
Was the Nazi Holocaust religious or was it secular? A bit of both, actually. Nazi oppression and massacres against political opponents and gypsies were obviously secular in nature - but the determination to exterminate the Jews from the face of the earth cannot possibly be understood without the background of centuries of persistent and violent Christian anti-semitism, generally encouraged by religious authorities.

SECULAR SECULAR SECULAR SECULAR SECULAR SECULAR SECULAR

HITLER WAS NOT A PRACTICING CATHOLIC, THAT IS JUST USED TO JUSTIFY HATRED OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU.

Northern Ireland
The terrible combination of nationalism, politics and religion has had deadly consequences for the people living in Northern Ireland. Catholics and Protestants have been vilifying, attacking, torturing and killing each other in a seemingly endless cycle. What role does Christianity play in all of this violence?

once again this is a secular matter. the problems with northern ireland come more from the irish desire to be completely autonomous. after years of bad blood between them, it is more about this than christianity.

Modern America
America in the 20th century has suffered from many violent incidents which can be traced back to Christianity. Some have been organized, others not so organized, but all the result of specifically violent or dangerous doctrines promoted in Christian churches.

thats nice and vague.

Jonesboro & Paducah
Commentary on the school violence which occurred in Jonesboro and Paducah. Would more religion in the schools have prevented the violent outbursts, as some religious leaders claim?

now this goes against your original point.

[AChimp]

aside from a few notables like Richard of Champagne, the saracen muslims were twice as violent as the crusaders.
Not entirely true. They only seemed more violent because pretty much any crime that you could commit had a punishment that involved execution or amputation.

The Muslims conquered the Holy Land, but they were perfectly happy to allow Christians to come and go as they pleased and even allowed the Christians to continue practicing their religion. It wasn't until some crazy Muslim governor decided to burn down that temple in Bethlehem (I forget what it was called. :( ) that the Christians in Europe got all fired up and ran off to "liberate" the Holy Land.

As it turned out, the Crusaders ended up killing more people than the Muslims did, and "liberating" included looting, pillaging and killing the peasants (including large numbers of Christians).

History also seems to forget that the Muslims rebuilt the temple that the crazy guy ordered burnt down, too. :/

[ItalianStereotype]

NEED ANOTHER HISTORY LESSON CHIMP? >: YOU NEVER RESPONDED TO THE LAST ONE >:

they WERE more violent chimp. the idea of islam at the time was that aside from the treasures of the afterlife, you got what you could take in your earthly life. this is how saladin and mohammed were able to hold the islamic hordes together, promise of booty of both types ;)

"the temple" was rebuilt countless times during the crusades and was burned and desecrated by the saracens every time thy got into the city. "the temple" was made the hq of the knights templars during the occupation of jerusalem. the temple of solomon was many things, but it wasnt the cause of the crusades. if anything it was the overly zealous pope urban II, the pressure of the seljuk turks on the byzantines, and a deep-seated resentment of islam in iberia. eventually it became a war to liberate the holy lands.

they were NOT perfectly happy to allow christians to come and go as they please. that is the whole reason the knights of the temple of solomon (templar knights) and the knights of the hospital of st. john were formed. to protect pilgrims from SARACEN RAIDERS. plus, subjected christians in muslim lands were second class citizens at best, slaves at worst.



but none of this takes away from the fact that the woman with nuts was wrong.

[Helm]

To the best of my historic knowledge, Stereotype is mostly right.

[AChimp]

Dude, I said a temple in Bethlehem, not the Temple of Solomon in Jeruselem. It had already been destroyed for over 1000 years with JEWISH (not Christian) temples being built/torn down/rebuilt during that time.

And, yes, I know that it wasn't the sole cause of the Crusades. It was, however, one of the excuses that the Pope needed to convince everyone run off and at the same time, inconspicuously increase his power.

Muslims DID tolerate other religions, as long as those others recognized that they were infidels (which is still the case today). They didn't prohibit other religions in anyway, however. The Knights Templar weren't formed until AFTER the first Crusade was over, and of course the "raiders" would be attacking pilgrims and people travelling around; they were soldiers trying to take back the land that they had been kicked out of.

You seem to think that the Muslims were barbarians, when in reality they were much more civilized and advanced, both culturally and technologically, than Europe.

[Helm]

Cultural advancement is a silly notion. Advancement using what scale?

[AChimp]

You know, stuff like "washing makes you clean, and therefore you won't get sick as much."

[ItalianStereotype]

Dude, I said a temple in Bethlehem, not the Temple of Solomon in Jeruselem. It had already been destroyed for over 1000 years with JEWISH (not Christian) temples being built/torn down/rebuilt during that time.

ok, i didnt see that you were talking about bethlehem. by your timeline, the temple of solomon would have been destroyed during the lifetime of jesus...i honestly dont know if that is true :/

i DO know that it had been rebuilt by the jews, byzantine christians, and muslims over a period of however many years.

And, yes, I know that it wasn't the sole cause of the Crusades. It was, however, one of the excuses that the Pope needed to convince everyone run off and at the same time, inconspicuously increase his power.

the pope didnt need to increase his power. he was the most powerful man in europe at the time of the crusades. the reasons i stated were the causes of the crusades, maybe yours helped fuel it, i dont know.

Muslims DID tolerate other religions, as long as those others recognized that they were infidels (which is still the case today). They didn't prohibit other religions in anyway, however. The Knights Templar weren't formed until AFTER the first Crusade was over, and of course the "raiders" would be attacking pilgrims and people travelling around; they were soldiers trying to take back the land that they had been kicked out of.

yes i know that the muslims didnt forcibly convert the christians, but you should re-read what i wrote earlier. they were not tolerant of any faith besides their own, they allowed it because they didnt want rebellion. saladin himself said this. the knights templar were technically formed DURING the first crusade (1119) and the raiders were not trying to take back the lands they had lost. these were seljuk raiders in anatolia, which never left muslim hands.

You seem to think that the Muslims were barbarians, when in reality they were much more civilized and advanced, both culturally and technologically, than Europe.

nobody was very civilized in the era we are talking about, but i am not trying to make them out to be barbarians. i am trying to dispell the image you have of them being some kind of gentleman race desperately trying to defend themselves from the bloodthirsty crusaders.

[womanwithballs]

OOPS! I neglected to give the website where I got all the info. It wasn't MY words and I didn't intend to take credit for them. I saved the website on my daughter's computer this morning at her house just before I rushed to work. I'll get it for you asap (whomever is interested). And as I said before, it was my professor that made the claim... I simply repeated what he said. I'm no religious scholar. You guys have a better understanding of the history than I do. So, this woman with nuts was wrong to not add in the website, not wrong in her copying and pasting technique. :/ I'll get that website for you, Italian... and YOU can argue with the sources.

I do understand that witches were treated badly by all religions. I don't hate the catholic faith. It's no more oppressive and/or ridiculous than all the rest of them. I also know it's not a wise idea to assume things about people you know precious little about.


Here's one website with a little comparative analysis:

http://godisnowhere.org/Articles/cachristislam.htm

[AChimp]

the temple of solomon would have been destroyed during the lifetime of jesus...i honestly dont know if that is true
It was actually destroyed twice. The first time by the Babylonians circa 400 BC and then by the Romans in either 70 AD or 70 BC (one of those).

You are right about it being rebuilt by all those civilizations. It's Muslim tradition to build their holy sites on the holy sites of other religions. ;)

the pope didnt need to increase his power. he was the most powerful man in europe at the time of the crusades.
Yeah, but as the saying goes, "absolute power corrupts absolutely." I recall seeing a TLC program about the Crusades that said the Pope wanted to solidify his authority in Europe and expand his influence to all Christians. We probably will never know all the reasons. :/

and the raiders were not trying to take back the lands they had lost. these were seljuk raiders in anatolia, which never left muslim hands.
It still boils down to the fact that the raids started after the Crusades began. The Europeans were considered to be foreign invaders.

I read an interesting piece in a book I used in a history project in junior high that the only reason that the Europeans succeeded in taking Jeruselam was that a) the Muslims had just had a fairly protracted civil war, if not bloody, and there was a lot of confusion and b) they were all like "WTF?" when the European knights showed up one day and started attacking. It took them a while to realize that people would travel that far to actually pick a fight.

i am trying to dispell the image you have of them being some kind of gentleman race desperately trying to defend themselves from the bloodthirsty crusaders.
I'm not saying they were gentlemanly; all humans are equally capable of violence. In fact, Saladin's army once set fire to a grass plain and basically burned a Crusader army to death while they were sleeping. To this day, they still use their religion as justification for a lot of things that Christianity learned to distance itself from or was never associated with.

The fact of the matter is, though, that the Muslims were centuries ahead of Europe. The only reason why European scholars had copies of classical literature to study and imitate during the Renaissance is mostly because Arabs were big fans of Greek and Roman stuff and made hundreds of copies.

They also made great advances in science, particularly medicine, astronomy and math. The Crusades were actually beneficial for Europeans in a way, because it brought back countless new ideas and commodities when soldiers started coming home.

[ItalianStereotype]

i doubt that we will ever agree about what started the crusades or the reasons for the military orders or a lot of what actually happened during the campaigns...

i do agree that the crusades were beneficial for western europe and helped usher in the renaissance. i also think we went above and beyond anything the muslims would have done had they continued in their upward trends.

[Helm]

nobody was very civilized in the era we are talking about

And by civilized I take it you mean more AChimp hygene moronity or something else?

[ItalianStereotype]

i suppose it depends. i dont recall what i was thinking when i posted that...civilization is in the eye of the beholder.

who knows what chimp thinks is civilized...they fling their own shit for christs sake.

[The_Rorschach]

Wish I had seen this earlier. There were a number of Crusades, some more negligable than others, but only one truly successful one, and two partially sucessful.


Chimp: It was actually destroyed twice. The first time by the Babylonians circa 400 BC and then by the Romans in either 70 AD or 70 BC (one of those).

70 A.D.

Chimp: Yeah, but as the saying goes, "absolute power corrupts absolutely." I recall seeing a TLC program about the Crusades that said the Pope wanted to solidify his authority in Europe and expand his influence to all Christians. We probably will never know all the reasons.

As I understand it, the first Crusade was motivated primarily by the threat the Moslem's represented against Europe. The war between Byzantine and the Moslems was an odd mix of religious fervitude and imperialistic dynasty building, and lasted for some three hundred years before the Moslems finally triumphed over them. it was at that point the Pope, and many European leaders as well, became aware of how great the threat to their own security truly was. The Pope's only real action to encourage the conflict during the period was to promise that any Moslem slain by European hands would not be considered a sin as they were striking out of their own self defense. However, after proving sucessful in the early stages of the war, they decided to take that as a sign of God's favour and hence decided to go down into the Middle East and liberate Jerusalem - An odd reflection of America's actions of late, but thats neither here nor there.



Chimp: It still boils down to the fact that the raids started after the Crusades began. The Europeans were considered to be foreign invaders.

Indeed, as was the United States when MacArthur pushed the Chinese-supported North Koreans all the way back into lower China in the fifties. The Moslems had been fighting offensively for such an extended period of time, they had not expected for any counter offensive measures - And who could blame them? There had been no previous precedent for such action from the docile Europeans.


Chimp: The fact of the matter is, though, that the Muslims were centuries ahead of Europe. The only reason why European scholars had copies of classical literature to study and imitate during the Renaissance is mostly because Arabs were big fans of Greek and Roman stuff and made hundreds of copies.

Hmmm, this is one of those statements I dislike arguing with because it's rather arbitrary. It was the Turks who invented the idea of true hospitols, 'western' medication and institutionalized places of learning (i.e. schools as we know them now). Arabians offered astrology (which was drastically inferior to some of the knowledge known in lower China at the time) and Algebra (which is only one facet of higher mathematics), and while these are great improvements, what qualifies them as better than what we learned from the Romans (tactics, government, physics), the Greeks (philosophy, art, theory, govenrment) Europeans (science, astronomy, physics) or any other existing culture?

[AChimp]

A lot of the classical knowledge was lost to Europe during the Middle Ages. I'm not saying that Muslim-garnered knowledge is better than anywhere else, but without them, it would have most likely disappeared forever.

The Chinese were probably just as advanced as the Muslims, but it would be a few centuries before Europeans travelled there enough for oriental ideas to impact on Europe in a substantial way.

All I wanted to say was that the Muslims were living in huge cities and intricate palaces while the stupid white man was mucking around in muddy fields. :(

[The_Rorschach]

Mmm, lately we have had an 'apologist' movement here on campus where it seems people feel the need to atone for the fact they are white. I can neither understand nor condone it. I realize there is much in European and American history which is ugly in its own right and many of us would be happy to forget, but I think we would be making a great mistake in assuming the villainification of Europeans simply because of the fact they are European, or for Americans either.

The contracted war between Byzantine and the Moslems lasted long enough for it to be considered uncontroversial fact. Due to this, I feel confident in assuming that blame does not lie solely with the Europeans in this conflict.

[ItalianStereotype]

Mmm, lately we have had an 'apologist' movement here on campus where it seems people feel the need to atone for the fact they are white. I can neither understand nor condone it. I realize there is much in European and American history which is ugly in its own right and many of us would be happy to forget, but I think we would be making a great mistake in assuming the villainification of Europeans simply because of the fact they are European, or for Americans either.

i have noticed the same thing ror. hell, i even wrote a paper about it....it got a failing grade because my prof. thought that i was deliberately insensitive. :/

you should read "the death of the west" it talks about what you are saying and it helped me understand it a lot more.

[AChimp]

I AM OFFENDED. >:

edit: And so is the little black kid inside me. >:

[ItalianStereotype]

I AM OFFENDED THAT YOU ARE OFFENDED >:

MAYBE YOU SHOULD GO TAKE A SHIT

[El Blanco]

I would just like to add that during the Dark Ages in Europe, the Irish monks also kept most of the Classical World on record. It was reintroduced shortly before the Crusades. Of course, the English did a great job of wiping out the progress and institutions the Irish built so well.

[The_Rorschach]

My Grandmother used to read us stories by YB Yeats (I believe it was Yeats anyway) which portrayed Ireland as haven for intellectuals and philosophers. As I got older and learned a bit more of the histories, I began to assume it was just so much bullshit.

Mind if I ask your source there Blanco? Never bothered looking into it too deeply myself, but it'd be nice to know for certain one way or the other.

[Royal Tenenbaum]

posted by Achimp:
"Actually, the newbie has a valid point.

Religion has always, always, always turned into a source of power for the people in charge. If it didn't, there would never have been any conflict between the Catholic and Protestant churches when Luther came up with his new concept of Christianity while in the throes of agony brought on by chronic constipation.

Europe in the Middle Ages might as well have been a theocracy. Egyptian pharoahs were considered to be actual gods and had the ultimate level of power over absolutely everything. It's also been shown that the Sumerian priests had very strict control over their entire civilization.

EDIT: This actually reminds me of a quote some of my friends told me about. I think it's by William Blake:

"Your vision of Christ doth be my vision's greatest enemy.""


No offense, but that is the shittiest fucking mis-quote I have ever witnessed in my life. The quote is, "The vision of Chirst that you doth see, is my vision's greatest enemy," by William Blake. Don't fucking quote shit you don't know; to quote the Big Lebowski, you are completely "out of your element." So very fucking bin.

[AChimp]

Close enough. :rolleyes

[slavemason]

Close enough. :rolleyes
Speaking of "Close Enough". it doesn't count in Horseshoes and Hand Grenades. If you come close to getting a ringer, it's worth 1 point not 5. If you come close to killing me with a hand grenade, I could still shoot you in the head. I wonder if I'll come close to going to heaven.