Anti-War protester 0WN3D by Iraqi citizen

[VinceZeb]

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/anti-war-convo.mp3


This is something all you anti-war "little kids are going to die" idiots should listen to. Please find out who he is, call him at his home and give your arguments.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Was I supposed to see a picture of a large black woman licking her breast?

Cute. Seems to be consistent with your other arguments.

[VinceZeb]

What the hell are you talking about?

[Protoclown]

The direct link doesn't work. It links to a "FORBIDDEN" page with a large black woman on it.

I found the link on the main page and I'm listening to it now. Frankly, I'm not impressed by either side, they both keep interupting each other so much you can't really get anything useful out of it.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

When I click on the link there is a picture of a large black woman, licking her breasts, saying "back your ugly ass up."

This source must carry TONS of credibility.

Try pasting the article into the thread.

[VinceZeb]

Right click and download.


You cant get anything useful out of a Iraqi citizen who says that war is evil and his family will most likely DIE but he knows its for justice and freedom of his COUNTRY?!?? Then there is some stupid little anti-war speck that is crying about "what will bombing do about anything?"

:/ Wow........ I cant say any more....

[VinceZeb]

.mp3 files usually don't have articles....

... and you say I'm a dumbass :blah

[Protoclown]

They both sound like fuckups to me, and it's obvious that NEITHER one of them is listening to the other.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I didn't realize it was an audio file. I thought it was an article. SORRY!

Like America, Iraq will have citizens who have different opinions on things. Cubans in America talk of Cuba as the worst place on earth, yet they have a fantastic health care system and practically zero poverty. Does this mean Castro is a swell guy? No. It does mean that people measure freedom and happiness in different ways sometimes.

No one should have to live under Hussein. But as I've said before, and as I will continue to say, despite having a despot as a leader, they STILL managed to be one of the more liberal and advanced Arab societies. I think this is a testament to how awesome the Iraqi people are, NOT a tribute to Saddam.

I have an Afghani friend who KNOWS how terrible the Taliban was. She still opposed the war there. I have other middle eastern friends who hate Saddam, but oppose this war. People, contrary to your understanding of things, are complex, intelligent, and analytical. They don't view politics and foreign affairs like a caveman.

[VinceZeb]

What is there to listen to, Proto?

If I tell you the best format to write your articles for i-mockery in, I am an idiot because there is a way that is best for you and your site that I dont know shit about.

If you tell me how to drive on my St. Louis roads, your an idiot because you know nothing about it.

This girl is trying to tell someone who is almost DIRECTLY affected by the war in Iraq that bombing and keeping saddam in charge wont change anything and it isnt the right way. Do you now get the connection I am trying to make?

[VinceZeb]

Kevin, if you think Cuba is so great, would you like to see some word from actual political prisoners about how great it is down in Cuuuba?

Freedom is the same for everyone. Trust me; they would kill if they could get what we have. That’s why they COME to America. Last time I looked, I don't see anyone escaping the evil oppressive empire of the U.$. to enter the Heaven of Havana.

[Protoclown]

I see the connection you're trying to make, but it is weak and flimsy at best. Kevin pointed out the obvious, that there are going to be some Iraqi people who agree with the war and some who do not. Just because this guy is from Iraq means that he is an authority and he's automatically right??? What kind of stupid ass reasoning is that?

What about people from Iraq who are against the war? I mean shit, it all comes down to what this ONE guy says now? WTF?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

So if I go over to Japan, and talk with a friend of mine there, and I say to them, "Ya know, the best thing America could do is get a single-payer health care system, lower military spending, abolish the electoral college, and put more money into social programs," would you conceed that I know more than she does, even if she has studied American policy and economics, and MAY disagree with me...?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Kevin, if you think Cuba is so great, would you like to see some word from actual political prisoners about how great it is down in Cuuuba?

I could likewise run down a list of things that Cuba does a LOT better than we do, that doesn't mean I support Cuba over America, it means I can think beyondcaveman brain.

Freedom is the same for everyone. Trust me; they would kill if they could get what we have. That’s why they COME to America. Last time I looked, I don't see anyone escaping the evil oppressive empire of the U.$. to enter the Heaven of Havana.

People from all over the world go to Cuba to train to be doctors, because 1. the tuition is free, and 2. their only clause is that you go back to YOUR home to practice in a poor community.

The list goes on, but whatever.

People come here not for guaranteed anything. We have the best of everything for those who can afford it. I would probably escape from Cuba too, because someone like me would be more content to be poor and strapped for cash all the time, as long as I have other kinds of freedoms that you can't have in Cuba.

People can survive in Cuba, but they can't get RICH in Cuba. That is a big part of it.

[VinceZeb]

Wow, just... Wow. I can’t believe you sit here and TALK ABOUT THE FREEDOMS OF CUBA!

I am REALLY trying to be nice and calm right now, but statements like that wish I had a machine to have you trade places with someone who is living in Cuba. I bet they won’t want to change back.

I would, as God as my witness, raise one Million dollars for you right this moment. The ONLY thing you would have to do is to move to Cuba and act like you are a Cuban citizen. I want YOU to protest in the streets against Cuban oppression and violence from Castro like you and your fucking ilk do here about the evil oppressive oil hungry baby rapper selected president Bush. I want you to bitch, complain, everything JUST LIKE you do here. If you can make it back to the U.S. and give me clear evidence that you just had the most fucking dandy time of your life, I would pay you cash.

But, if you decide to take me up on the offer, make sure to write me a letter right before the police capture you and take you off to the torture chambers. It will give me something to put up on my wall and to show my kids to explain to them the purest form of idiocy.


And yes kevin, you by proxy would know more about it than she would. But you are attacking strawmen and equating the issues as if they are the same. Just like a good lil' lib.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Wow, just... Wow. I can’t believe you sit here and TALK ABOUT THE FREEDOMS OF CUBA!

I am REALLY trying to be nice and calm right now, but statements like that wish I had a machine to have you trade places with someone who is living in Cuba. I bet they won’t want to change back.

Did you actually read anything I said?

I would, as God as my witness, raise one Million dollars for you right this moment. The ONLY thing you would have to do is to move to Cuba and act like you are a Cuban citizen.

I don't need your money. They would pay for me to fly over there and learn to be a doctor, for FREE.


I want YOU to protest in the streets against Cuban oppression and violence from Castro like you and your fucking ilk do here about the evil oppressive oil hungry baby rapper selected president Bush. I want you to bitch, complain, everything JUST LIKE you do here. If you can make it back to the U.S. and give me clear evidence that you just had the most fucking dandy time of your life, I would pay you cash.

I never argued that Cuba is better than America, in fact, I argued to the contrary. You need to calm down and read slower, sport.

But, if you decide to take me up on the offer, make sure to write me a letter right before the police capture you and take you off to the torture chambers. It will give me something to put up on my wall and to show my kids to explain to them the purest form of idiocy.

I would be honored. :) :lol

And yes kevin, you by proxy would know more about it than she would. But you are attacking strawmen and equating the issues as if they are the same. Just like a good lil' lib.

You are attacking me personally rather than attacking the subject/content of what I said. Just like a good lil' Conservative.

[Protoclown]

For fuck's sake, you really DO live in a cave, don't you? Are you really that stupid or do you just ignore vast portions of Kevin's posts??

HE DID NOT SAY CUBA WAS A BASTION OF FREEDOM.

He said that Cuba did SOME things better than us. He didn't glorify the "freedoms" of Cuba, in fact I think he made it rather clear that Cuba is LACKING in many of the freedoms we enjoy.

But find a country that DOESN'T do at least SOMETHING better than we do. I'll bet you can't.

[VinceZeb]

N. Korea built the best intercountry highway in the history of the world, does that make them BETTER than us because they can build a highway better? Oh yeah, 99.5% of private citizens CANT OWN CARS. And that money that was used to build Kim Pie-faced faggot fuck Il's cream highway is taken from the people who are starving.

You two honestly need to find a working time machine, go back to the your moment of conception, and convince your parents that abortion is the way to go. Better yet, get adopted in a slave state like N. Korea or China or Zimbawabe. Your moral multicultural equivlence makes me want to shit acidic diahrea and puke 3 day in the sun stomach bile.

Your education, your ideas about the world, your life has misled you and given you false views of the world. You have it so fucking good in this way of life that you cannot see the forest from the trees. People like you make me want to slam my head in a delivery truck camper door. It would make me bleed from the ears less.

I honestly cannot say anything else except that I feel deep remorse and shame for anyone that would marry you and birth your children. I also feel deep regret that your offspring will be influenced by the likes of you two.

[Protoclown]

N. Korea built the best intercountry highway in the history of the world, does that make them BETTER than us because they can build a highway better?

Once again, you are CLEARLY not listening, reading, or paying the slightest bit of attention whatsoever to what either of us is saying. I'm starting to see why you have such a hard time comprehending other people's arguments.

NOBODY said that just because a country does ONE THING better than us means that the COUNTRY AS A WHOLE is better than us. Find where either Kevin or I said that. Actually, I'll save you the time, don't bother. You CAN'T because we DIDN'T SAY IT.

You two honestly need to find a working time machine, go back to the your moment of conception, and convince your parents that abortion is the way to go.

I'm glad you brought this up, because I was wondering when you were going to answer my question in the other thread where we were discussing morality. You know, the one where I asked you if abortion was evil?

People like you make me want to slam my head in a delivery truck camper door.

Please! Feel free! :)

I honestly cannot say anything else except that I feel deep remorse and shame for anyone that would marry you and birth your children. I also feel deep regret that your offspring will be influenced by the likes of you two.

That's great. I'll be glad to babysit your kids one day and influence them too! :)

[KevinTheOmnivore]

N. Korea built the best intercountry highway in the history of the world, does that make them BETTER than us because they can build a highway better?

No.


You two honestly need to find a working time machine, go back to the your moment of conception, and convince your parents that abortion is the way to go.

But then my Mom would go to hell. :(

Better yet, get adopted in a slave state like N. Korea or China or Zimbawabe. Your moral multicultural equivlence makes me want to shit acidic diahrea and puke 3 day in the sun stomach bile.

Better yet, lets be consistent and go liberate these people, right?

Never have I said Cuba, or the above mentioned countries were "better" than America. NEXT!

Your education, your ideas about the world, your life has misled you and given you false views of the world. You have it so fucking good in this way of life that you cannot see the forest from the trees. People like you make me want to slam my head in a delivery truck camper door. It would make me bleed from the ears less.

Don't do that, buddy. :(

I'm sorry my views enrage you so much, in that case, you might be better off yourself living in a country with less free speech, like Cuba or North Korea (or how about our allies Jordan and Saudi Arabia and Qatar???).

I honestly cannot say anything else except that I feel deep remorse and shame for anyone that would marry you and birth your children. I also feel deep regret that your offspring will be influenced by the likes of you two.

Well, look on the bright side. If my wife gets tired of my "pussy ass," she can always pay you a visit, right? Does that invitation extent to my kids, too? Do you dig "de-pussyfying" little kids???

[AChimp]

Canada is better than the U.S. :)

[VinceZeb]

I adore the fact that you think I want to have sex with members of your family. Talk about streching what someone said. But, since you are liberal, you should be a seasoned pro at that.

[Alxcipher]

The conversation was absolutely moronic.

[Protoclown]

Thanks, Alxcypher. As per usual, you manage to contribute nothing worthwhile except for your usual bitching and moaning.

[VinceZeb]

Somebody has to.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I adore the fact that you think I want to have sex with members of your family. Talk about streching what someone said. But, since you are liberal, you should be a seasoned pro at that.

And I adore the fact that you are inable to address any of my points. :)

[VinceZeb]

You cite half-truths and spin facts. Why should I believe or even try to argue with you?

[Anonymous]

Good job. You're supposed to believe what you're told by approved figureheads and ignore the opposition.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You cite half-truths and spin facts.

Such as?

[mburbank]

Vince, vince, vince. You feel sorry for my kids, you feel sorry for kids that Kevin may someday have, you wish Proto's parents hadn't ever birthed him...

I'm seeing a VERY alpha male agenda here. I think you see yourself as the best "Father" for everyone. Which is going to be hard since your writting makes it clear you are a HUGELY REPRESSED ROUGH TRADE BEEFCAKE! I see you as the guy who Killed Kevin Spacey at the end of American Beauty. But HUNKIER!

Say 'pussy' again, Officer Manly. OH! It is SO hot in here!

[VinceZeb]

Again, again with the slander. Man, you need to chair up the DNC. You would fit in perfectly.

I'll take a page out of max's book: Wow, the fact that you said I'm a repressed beefcake like the military man from AB must mean you have a repressed homosexual domination fetish that you want me to fulfill for you, Max. HUK HUK HUK, I'ma smart 'un!

Kevin, it would take me for ages to compile that information. I honestly shouldn't brought it up.

Chojin, if you want the truth, read how I said I get and process my information before you make such a blanket statement.

[Anonymous]

Last I heard it was through Fox and MSNBC, because they dance for you.

[Protoclown]

Kevin, it would take me for ages to compile that information. I honestly shouldn't brought it up.

Oh come ON now, Vince! It shouldn't be that hard at all, if everything Kevin says is truly full of crap! I mean, just pick one or two examples from ANY of his posts! If you can, that is. I understand if it takes you a while to conjure up an appropriate bullshit source to back up your claims.

[Alxcipher]

Thanks, Alxcypher. As per usual, you manage to contribute nothing worthwhile except for your usual bitching and moaning.

Vague assertion in a functionally intert arguement. Thanks, but your opinion is somehow more valid? Sure thing.

[VinceZeb]

Actually, Proto, I like to make sure I know what I am talking about before I speak. What is the point of talking if I can't back up my facts? Its worthless emotional logic-vapid crap.

[Anonymous]

You must really hate yourself, then.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Kevin, it would take me for ages to compile that information. I honestly shouldn't brought it up.

Proto is right, Vince. Lets just pick ONE of the half-truths or lies I have stated in this thread, and we'll work from there, ok?

[VinceZeb]

If you want me to give you figures and facts, I do have to do a little looking for when you actually used some that were falsehoods. That may take me a bit, since I have to get my sources straight.

Now, if you want me to take the opinions you have formed and prove to you why some are half-truths are all and all lies, I can do that as well. Would be quickier but not grand slam hitting like I would want. More like an ground rule double that knocks in a couple runs.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Do whatever makes you most comfortable. :)

[VinceZeb]

I am allowing you to choose it. I can go with either one as long as I got the time.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Well, I guess something about Cuba. However, it's not like I disagreed with you about Cuba, you just refuse to believe Cuba does anything good/right. So I guess prove that.

Below is an article that proves another point of mine. Every nation, even Iraq, has its spectrum of ideology.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4633543,00.html

Iraqi exiles put patriotism first as they return home to fight invaders

Jonathan Steele in Saida Zeinab, Syria
Wednesday March 26, 2003
The Guardian

Young Iraqi exiles are rushing home to defend their country in growing numbers, even though many strongly oppose Saddam Hussein's regime.

A fatwa issued by the highest religious leaders of Shia Islam, calling on Iraqis to "fight the aggressors and stand against the invasion", will accelerate an already strong trend for young Iraqi exiles to go home to defend their country.

Nowhere is this more visible than in the warren of narrow streets in Saida Zeinab, a heavily Iraqi Shia neighbourhood of the Syrian capital.

"I'm against Saddam but I'm not for America," said a young man yesterday behind a shop counter full of music CDs and cassette tapes of speeches and lectures by Shia scholars.

Until two months ago Abdullah, 25, (who did not want to give his real name) was a student of engineering from Kerbala, a town south of Baghdad which contains one of Shia Islam's holiest mosques.

The tapes he can sell openly in Syria are banned in Iraq, where Abdullah passed them out clandestinely to friends until he felt the risk of being jailed was getting too great.

Now he is planning to go home. The patriotic drive to defend his country has overcome his hatred of Saddam's regime, he said, though there are other factors too - peer group pressure and anxiety about his parents' well-being.

"Many of my friends have gone back already in the last few days," he said. "Even if I just dig a trench by our house and sit in it with a gun, I might kill one of the invaders. They're coming down in parachutes so you might hit one."

Round the corner Mohammed Ali Musa, 23, serves tea in a small room dominated by a television set on a high shelf. The customers, mainly middle-aged men, sit in gloomy silence as al-Jazeera beams the latest news of the war. The normal morning chatter has been replaced by pensive sipping and the rattle of worry beads.

"I'm planning to go back in three days' time," says Mohammed, another Iraqi Shia who left his wife and parents in Nassiriya two months ago in the hope of earning a better wage in Syria.

"I want to cut the Americans' throats and throw them to the dogs," he adds. "If I'd known it would have been like this, I would never have left Iraq. I just pray to God I can go back and make a contribution."

In spite of the young men's eagerness to go home, there is an obstacle. A US missile struck a bus carrying 37 Syrian workers coming home from Iraq on Sunday, killing five and wounding 10. Now few drivers want to take the risk of travelling the route.

Close to a hundred thousand marchers brought central Damascus to a standstill yesterday as the anti-war sentiment in the nation grew.

Young Iraqi men in Jordan, which like Syria hosts several hundred thousand exiles, have also been flooding back home since the war started.

Jordanian records show that 5,284 Iraqis have crossed the desert border overland into Iraq since March 16. Iraq's consular office in Amman issued at least 3,000 temporary passports for exiled Iraqis in the war's first three days.

The level of resistance from Shia Muslims in particular has been one of the biggest shocks for US and British forces. They predominate in southern Iraq and have a long history of being repressed by Saddam Hussein's regime. They were expected to be natural allies.

"People remember the coalition's position at the end of the first Gulf war in 1991 when they left the field and gave a green light to Saddam to destroy our uprising. They still don't trust the Americans," said Bayan Jabor, of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, one of the opposition groups with which the United States deals.

While middle-aged Iraqi opposition politicians comfort themselves with an image of a cautiously neutral population, the mood of the younger generation gives a different signal.

What moves them is not the past but today's graphic news bulletins of bombs and invaders in foreign colours. Thousands are taking sides. They are opting for patriotism, however much they hate Saddam .


Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2003

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Waiting.

[FS]

Give him a minute >: those yo momma jokes don't write themselves, you know.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

bump.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Hi.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Anybody wanna talk about Cuba?

[ItalianStereotype]

its purdy.

[The_Rorschach]

"You are attacking me personally rather than attacking the subject/content of what I said. Just like a good lil' Conservative."

Some of us are capable of doing both ;)

Anyway, This entire thing is golden if just for the first two responses by Kevin. I'm not sure how I've managed to miss this thread for so long.

On this topic of Cuba:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/05/opinion/05NEIE.html?tntemail0

The World's Other Tyrants, Still at Work
By ARYEH NEIER

ith international attention focused on Iraq, despots are seizing the opportunity to get rid of their opposition ? real or imagined. In Zimbabwe, Cuba and Belarus, independent journalists, opposition leaders and human rights advocates have been thrown in prison.

. . . (edited out the superfluous)

In Cuba, the war is giving Fidel Castro cover for an unprecedented assault. Over the past two weeks his state security agents have arrested about 80 dissidents. Prosecutors are seeking life sentences for 12 of those detained and 10- to 30-year prison terms for the rest. They include the economist Marta Beatriz Roque, the poet and journalist Raúl Rivero and the opposition labor activist Pedro Pablo Álvarez.
The list of arrests reads like a Who's Who of Cuban civil society ? with the obvious exception of those who were already in jail when the roundup started. They are the unsung heroes of a movement to liberate the minds of Cuba. But the names do not mean much to a world public now concentrated on becoming more and more expert on the latest in military equipment and on the geography of Iraq.


. . . (more edited, but the article is well worth reading in full.)

[mburbank]

bumpitty bump bump.

[Zebra 3]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/403lady.jpg

:/ - She's staring at me.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Here Vince, I'll help ya!!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14687-2003Apr12?language=printer

washingtonpost.com
Castro Defends Crackdown on Dissenters


By ANITA SNOW
The Associated Press
Saturday, April 12, 2003; 8:16 PM


HAVANA - President Fidel Castro is defending his crackdown on dissent, shrugging off international criticism and vowing to defend Cuba against destabilizing moves by the United States.

"We are now immersed in a battle against provocations that are trying to move us toward conflict and military aggression by the United States," Castro said.

He did not directly refer to Friday's execution of three men convicted of hijacking a ferry to get to the United States, in a Friday night speech broadcast on state television. Nor did he mention the lengthy sentences given 75 dissidents convicted of helping U.S. diplomats undermine Cuba's socialist system.

Though both measures were roundly condemned by world governments and human rights groups, the communist leader made it clear that he considers his country to be under U.S. attack and that he will do whatever it takes to ensure his system remains intact.

"We have been defending ourselves for 44 years and have always been willing to fight until the end," Castro said. "If someday they make us disappear from the map, we will die with the greatest dignity in the world."

Some longtime Cuba observers believe Castro is alarmed by the U.S. government's military action in Iraq and worries his country could be next.

"I think that the Cubans have looked at what is happening in Iraq and have concluded that the United States will not be restrained by international law and international institutions," said Cuba specialist Wayne Smith, who was the top U.S. diplomat in Havana during former President Jimmy Carter's administration.

Smith said he considered such a strike unlikely but "the Cubans still need international support from the Europeans, from Canada" and what they are doing is "only shooting themselves in the foot."

The Cuban government's harsh measures began March 18 - the eve of the launch of the war on Iraq. That night, a statement read on state television announced that a roundup of "mercenaries" was underway.

Over the following three weeks, authorities arrested, tried and sentenced 75 of its most vocal critics to terms ranging from 6 to 28 years.

Authorities accused the independent journalists, opposition party leaders, human rights advocates and pro-democracy activists of receiving money from and working with U.S. diplomats to harm Cuba's economic and political systems - charges that the dissidents and Americans deny.

The crackdown came amid a rash of successful hijackings of planes and a ferry to the United States, which Cuba blames on U.S. policies that it says encourage illegal migration.

On Friday, a firing squad executed three men arrested in the unsuccessful armed hijacking of a passenger ferry on April 2. Four others were sentenced to life in prison.


© 2003 The Associated Press

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Hi Vince!! :)

[The_Rorschach]

Hi Vince!! :)

[mburbank]

HEY! I JUST REALIZED YOU NEVER POSTED THAT SUBMARINE LETTER!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Howdy, Vince!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Come on Vince, show us how smart you are.....

[The_voice_of_reason]

zeb must be doing some in depth reasearch. i suggest we all mock him in the other threads...i guess he kinda mocks himself. but anyway mocking him should arouse his id enough that his primal male instincts need justification in his genetic superiority, that will cause some of the most heart felt blabbery ever.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

We've grown tired of shooting fish in a bucket, but you should be careful, next target may be you. :P

[HitlerWasReich]

Cubans in America talk of Cuba as the worst place on earth, yet they have a fantastic health care system and practically zero poverty

http://www.csuchico.edu/pub/inside/archive/01_04_26/03.cuba.html
a professors account of Cuba's child and educational systems, notice the constant theme of poverty. Still, it is very pro-cuban so one wonders what a more skeptical eye could have seen in the average Cuban's "happiness". His end claim about racism is interesting regarding this:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/5/22/170022.shtml

I think that the Cubans have looked at what is happening in Iraq and have concluded that the United States will not be restrained by international law and international institutions," said Cuba specialist Wayne Smith, who was the top U.S. diplomat in Havana during former President Jimmy Carter's administration.

Carter's administration had some of the worst foreign policies of any president. Castro is using the war as an excuse to clean house. The U.S. will not attack Cuba, Castro is smart enough to realize this and is using his "battle against provocations" as an excuse to murder opponents. No one believes that the current war against terrorism could be applied to Cuba, they don't have oil after all.

The point in the original radio piece was this "How will leaving Saddam in power promote peace?" It won't. The current statistcis even from left biased groups are what 10.000? WHERE'S MY 500,000? I demand more dead brown skinned babies. This war so far has killed far less than Saddam has in the past or would have in the future. Whether we can win the peace remains to be seen, but I hardly consider people who promised me 100's of thousands dead as prophetic or even competent. The main complaint seems to be about over-turning International Institutions. Organizations mired in corruption, slow acting bureaucracies, and idealogical splits. Is Libya fit to give advice on human rights? How many other nations pursue UN resolutions to declare war? How many unelected dictatorships are members of the UN?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

The poverty is ubiquitous, said Spear, and affects people, infrastructure, and institutions. Everywhere there are buildings, streets, and plazas in need of repair.

Show me an inner-city school in our American paradise that doesn't need the same thing.

According to the CIA World Fact book (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html), Cuba is quite similar to us in their rate of literacy, their level of infant mortality, as well as their life expectancy at birth.

Furthermore, according to the World Health Organization, compared to the U.S., who according to 1995 numbers averaged 279 physicians per every 100,000 people, Cuba (according to 1998 figures) averaged roughly 530 physicians for every 100,00 people, and that's with a considerably smaller population that that of the U.S.
http://www3.who.int/whosis/health_personnel/health_personnel.cfm

Look, don't get me wrong, the point wasn't how much better Cuba is than America. I would never agree to such a notion. The argument was based upon Vince's unwillingness to even hold a remotely mature conversation on the POSSIBILITY that Cuba might do some things right.

The article about poverty and stuff there is touching, but statistically speaking, doesn't add up. It's also unfair, b/c as I have already stated, you can go to an unlimited amount of public schools here in America that have the very same problems.


I think that the Cubans have looked at what is happening in Iraq and have concluded that the United States will not be restrained by international law and international institutions," said Cuba specialist Wayne Smith, who was the top U.S. diplomat in Havana during former President Jimmy Carter's administration.

Carter's administration had some of the worst foreign policies of any president. Castro is using the war as an excuse to clean house. The U.S. will not attack Cuba, Castro is smart enough to realize this and is using his "battle against provocations" as an excuse to murder opponents. No one believes that the current war against terrorism could be applied to Cuba, they don't have oil after all.

:lol

I agree with you fully, and luckily progressive watch dog groups such as Human Rights Watch also agree with you, and continue to exploit this issue.

However, much like India tried to use the war on terror as a justification for a "pre-emptive" strike on Pakistan, Castro is merely playing the game that has been started by the U.S. It wasn't a couple of Cuban "terrorists" with a stolen boat who were responsible for 9/11, anymore than all of these Iraqi "terrorists" who are really Palestinian suicide bombers responsible for 9/11.

The point in the original radio piece was this "How will leaving Saddam in power promote peace?" It won't. The current statistcis even from left biased groups are what 10.000? WHERE'S MY 500,000? I demand more dead brown skinned babies. This war so far has killed far less than Saddam has in the past or would have in the future.

According to Human Rights Watch (http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/04/iraq042703.htm), the amount dead is in fact higher post-war than during the war.

Violence isn't the only problem. OXFAM points out another issue, mainly being the lack of needed supplies in Iraq's over crowded hospitals (http://www.oxfamamerica.org/news/art5201.html). Luckily we won't want to make the same mistakes we have with Afghanistan, so the U.S. will probably be pumping aid into Iraq (already more money per head going into Iraq than there is right now in Afghanistan).

The war in Iraq is far from over, my friend.

Whether we can win the peace remains to be seen, but I hardly consider people who promised me 100's of thousands dead as prophetic or even competent.

I for one never made such promises, and why in God's name would I? If the death totals in this war were -5 I would've been elated, but unfortunately, due to looting, violence, instability attributable to our own incompetence, as well as the pending risk of disease and famine, those numbers may be on the rise.

Also, you're missing a key point. Earlier this year, before the war, Rumsfeld said the U.S. wasn't ruling out the use of WMD on Baghdad. A NUKE ON BAGHDAD!? Could you imagine the outcry???? Why do you think our military was so careful and diligent (sp?)?? Do you think it's because they have a general love and feeling of concern for the enemy? Screw that, it's kill or be killed, right? I for one, as do many others, attribute our nations concern during this war TO the peace movement. So, you shouldn't be chastizing anti-war protestors for not "producing the numbers," rather, you should be thanking us for preventing them.

[HitlerWasReich]

http://www.ncpa.org/pi/internat/pdinter/april98c.html
cuba has good literacy but that doesn't mean they aren't poor. They live in daily poverty and teaching them to read and providing care doesn't mean they have money. Provide a link discussing the poverty or hunger in Cuba, economics not education. A good literacy rate and healthcare system do not necessarily mean Cuba is without poverty.

Show me an inner-city school in our American paradise that doesn't need the same thing.
our schools may not have top of the line computers in every room but they aren't nearly as bad as you say. Have you seen them? Been in one?. The real improvement in our schools needs to come from student motivation and parents actually making sure their children do their work. Many parents feel that education is the school's responsibility and that they don't have to do anything. Not everyone is like this but those who care are the ones who succeed.
http://www.eastbayexpress.com/issues/2003-05-21/feature.html/1/index.html I believe this story tells more about the attittudes of some lower class families than about African Americans in particular.

The doctor said that he treated about fifteen burn cases every day in the course of an eight-hour shift, often children who were trying to light loose gunpowder.
Like kids playing with fireworks, not the armies job. Many people knew there would be looting and retallion as prisoners in a repressed regime vented their frustrations on the ones who had wronged them and the institutions that had taken their livelihood

I for one never made such promises
A shame most liberal pundits and human rights groups did.
as well as the pending risk of disease and famine
I am too lazy to provide a link, but the U.S. saved 500,00 Afganis by
providing food and distribution during an expected winter famine last year.
Castro is merely playing the game that has been started by the U.S.
The U.S. is merely playing the game everyone else does.
Castro has done things like this before, the U.S. is not neccessary for his repression.

Ah politics. Rumsfeld's startegy was to remind the world that we too have weapons of mass distraction. If you use chemical weapons we might just use a nuclear weapon. Everyone called Reagon crazy but he finally ended the cold war. Was a nuke used in Iraq? No. Did the "Gulf War II" end with a surprisingly bloodless conclusion ? Yes. Have we scared the shit out of Syria, North Korea and Iran? Yes.