Israel and US's NSA connection

[Geggy]

Thought this was an interesting read...

NSA Snooping And
Israeli Connection Questioned
Year Ends With NSA Snooping Issue while Reader Questions
New York Times Censorship And Biased Reporting, Relating
It To Protecting And Favoring Israeli Interests
Over U.S. And The Rest Of The World

Dr. Mohamed Khodr writes letter to New York Times that hasn't been published, raising questions as to fair and honest coverage. Is the Times protecting Israeli interests to the detrimnet of America, leading to censorship of important stories like the motives behind the Iraqi War, 9/11, the Patriot Act and NSA snooping on Americans.

By Greg Szymanski
12-25-5

The year is ending with a flurry of concern over President Bush's direct order to spy on Americans, using the Pentagon and National Security Agency (NSA) spooks to ration out the government's dirty work on mostly innocent and unsuspecting Americans.

The story recently broke in the mainstream press as the heated debate to renew the highly controversial Patriot Act took center stage in the Senate, ending last Friday as lawmakers agreed to a Feb 3, 2006, extension before any real action is taken.

For years, critics of the Patriot Act have been screaming about its direct infringement on cherished constitutional privacy and speech rights, but without much luck in getting any significant changes.

In fact, the NSA snooping story is directly related to the Patriot Act's illegality since it gives spooks an unbridled power to wiretap and eavesdrop on "suspected domestic terrorists," using mere suspicion, without a warrant, as the legal thresh hold instead of showing probable cause a crime is being committed.

Relaxing the legal standard from probable cause to mere suspicion has most fair-minded legal scholars up in arms. But academia provides little consolation for the millions of Americans now living under the umbrella of a fascist state, since newspaper follow-up reports recently pointed out the 18,000 people on the Bush spy list in the recent NSA story is only the "tip of the iceberg."

The extent and sheer numbers of those being spied on by the NSA without court-approved warrants based on probable cause ? not mere suspicion ? is now thought to be much, much larger.

And even The New York Times, who sat on the story for 18 months as a favor to the Bush administration, reported this fact in a Saturday follow-up to the original NBC story.

However, media critics complain both new agencies are out to lunch and "a day late and a dollar short" with their reporting efforts since widespread NSA and Pentagon abuse, with White House acknowledgement, has been documented by the alternative press and civil rights activists as early as 2002.

In fact, after the Times was caught red-handed in suppressing the NSA snooping story for more than 18 months, it provided just another example of the many stories, including 9/11 and the motives behind the war in Iraq, suppressed by Times management.

The year-end question arises: Why?

Many critics contend the Times is protecting the Bush administration and its neo-con world order agenda. Others also contend its policies favor and protect Israeli interests while turning a blind-eye to the U.S. and the rest of the world.

But knowing the Bush administration will step up efforts in 2006 to spy on more Americans and the Times will continue to censor even more important stories, let's end this year with a letter sent to the New York Times, sent by Mohamed Khodr, MD, which never was published but illustrated what Dr. Khodr feels is a "deep Israeli bias" resulting in the censorship of many important stories, including the truth behind the war in Iraq, 9/11, the Patriot Act, the NSA snooping story and many others.

In an effort to hear all views, the following is the unedited letter sent by Dr. Khodr to the publisher of the Times, Arthur Sulzberger, but not yet published:

Dear Mr. Sulzberger:
Happy Hanukah:
"Just a brief note to reiterate what I've written you on several occasions, written your editors including your letter editor, that your paper is unable to shake the influence and hold whether ideological, financial, political or just pure fear of confrontation of a Pro-Israel bias that has severely damaged the credibility of your paper. The once glorious paper of record has now come a timid infotainment paper that knows where its bread is buttered, and its not from any sense of justice or fairness it once embodied.

"Your paper's scandals, Pro-Israel and Pro-Iraq War will continue to bleed your credibility as the wars have bled the blood of the innocent youth of America, Iraq, Palestine, and Israel. Your support of Israel in the long run is a losing proposition and will only further alienate Americans and the world not only from Israel but from the future peace and stability of Jewish grandchildren who may pay a burdensome price for what you and the Zionist cabals have done to destroy this nation and the future of peace in the MidEast. "Never Again" should be the standard for the suffering of all humans not just for Jews who suffered expulsions from every European country and principality, an Inquisition, pogroms, hate, persecution, murders, and finally a Holocaust at the hands of Europe, not in Muslim countries and certainly not in Palestine. It was Islam that took Jewish refugees in and protected them, in fact placed them in honorable governmnet positions, as was the case of RamBam (for your letter editor's sake: that's Moses Maimonedes).

"Unfortunately your editor is of a lightweight intellect doing his "kosher" duty rather than seeking enlightenment on Zionism and Israel's history. I'm sure he's not read any part of the Babylonian Talmud nor of any United Nations report on Israel's terrorism --The Bunche Report to better understand why most Europeans think Israel is the main threat to world peace. Keeping such knowledge out of your paper will only further allow the Internet to exponentially expose the machinations of the media's silence when non-kosher blood is spilled as was the case when your front page plastered a huge photo of a suicide bomber's aftermath of an exploding bus with a young Israeli girl dead at the window.

"I've lived through the hell of Sharon's cluster bombs, napalm, and white phosphours bombs along with asphyxiating unknown chemical gas in 1982 Beirut, his raiding ofhospitals to take the wounded out and kill them, his destruction of entire buildings based on a "rumo" that Arafat maybe in it, his cutting off ofwater, food, and medicines fromentire cities and villages, his supportive massacre for 3 days of 2000 Palestinian civilians in two refugee camps------I don't see Bill Keller clamoring for the paper to publish a photo of such murders today for a historical context of Palestinian dead.Incidentally, the United Nations Security Council (with U.S. support) passed several Resolutions just during the summer of 1982 "urging" Israel to withdraw, stop the massacred, and allow food, water, and medicines into Beirut, but as usual Israel can tell the world to go to hell for all it cares.
Compare that with one U.N. Security Council Resolution against Syria to withdraw from Lebanon which it did, thus it seems the U.N. implements Israel's wishes but is impotent to even tell Israel "NO".

"I see your paper took issue with the Congress cutting $40 Billion of spending from America's poor over the next five years. Given that's about $8 Billion a year from America's children, your paper "forgot" to mentionthat this amount is what Israel receives almost annually from the American taxpayer when all funding from so many hidden "amendments" in the federal budget is accounted for. So Congress and your paper obviously support starving America's children but more than willing to pay for Israel's illegal squatters to leave their U.S. subsidized homes from Gaza.

"Thus the question here is: Who decides America's priorities? It's obviously not the silent majority of Americans who are kept in the dark by the media, such as yours, as to who's alienating this grand nation from the world and why are its children paying for the benefit of a rich nation, Israel, the 16th richest nations in the world and a nation who takes America's taxes and gives loans to other governments and entities, thus reaping aid and interest from the American taxpayer who can't pay for his or her drugs.

"Perhaps your editors can answer this simple question: what conference was held in 1949 in Europe on the Palestinian issue and what was its result?

"It's tragic that you as the publisher worry more about your bottom line than about the foundation of peace for Israel. Your hiring of such a biased editor who publishes TWO letters supporting Israel---to be fair he doesn't dare deny an Israeli counsel or an Abe Foxman letter which are published on an auto-pilot basis---and only ONE letter supporting Palestinian democracy is an outrage and a slap to the face of the editorial page, especially a page that helped launch a war based on known lies. America was pushed into war by your paper and others, by MILLER, LIBBY, PERLE, WOLFOWITZ, FEITH, ZAKHEIM, ABRAMS et. al---none of whom are Arabs or Muslims.

"Do remove the "all the news that FIT to print". It's hypocritical and unbecoming given that men like your letter editor decide what's "FIT" to print. Obviously your public editor whom I've written on several occasions is unable to deal with this issue or is supportive of the letter editor's bias.

Human beings are dying overseas while you and your staff enjoy your peaceful and well paid life. As I've told you previously, your Grandfather was an "Anti-Zionist" who loathed the pressure placed on him by the Zionists.

Happy Hanukah and Merry Christmas to your Editors and Staff.Mohamed Khodr M.D.

http://www.rense.com/general69/nsan.htm

[Abcdxxxx]

Rense.com ???? Geggy, I'm not sure why this excites you so much.

Jeff Rense is fixated on demonizing Jews. He believes in the Protocols of Zion, the text most cited as proof of a Jewish conspiracy to control the world. That is probably the #1 conspiracy theory attributed to Jews, and the foundation for the belief that Jews are greedy, power hungry people. Many Jews have died as a result of that text, which only nutcakes embrace as legit at this point.

Shame on you. Really. It's not comical that you keep using these type of recourses...it's just cliche and lazy.

Why would the NY Times publish a letter which speaks again of Jewish cabals, and rewrites history to say Islamic nations took in Jews during the Holocaust, when in fact that is false? 900,000+ Jews lost their citizenship, and had their assets frozen, and that is an absolute truth. Even the British restricted visas into their collonized Middle Eastern territory. Rejecting that type of garbage doesn't require anyone to do their "kosher duty" as that letter claims.

[Geggy]

I don't trust Rense.com at all, especially with their kooky UFO and 9/11 conspiracy theories but they do provide several good articles there. The person who wrote the article is one of the few independent journalists that I can trust the most...

Like I said in another thread...there are a lot of disinformationlists in the 9/11 truth movement and Rense.com is one of them...

I think a lot of people are questioning the manipulation of the numbers of jewish people who were killed in the holocaust. They've claimed that 6 miliion jews were killed which is impossible because it's already been proven that only 2.5 million jews existed in the area at the time...

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I don't trust Rense.com at all, especially with their kooky UFO and 9/11 conspiracy theories

:confused

[Abcdxxxx]

I point out some deliberately false information in your article (that Islamic nations embraced Holocaust refugees with open arms) and rather then respond to that, you come back denying the Holocaust numbers even happened. Maybe they're using the same numerical scale that told you only 1 Jew died in the WTC attacks?

Really, what do you want us to do with that?

[Geggy]

I think you missed the point...how do I put this delicately...hmm...aww fuck it...ZIONISTS HAVE BEEN LYING TO YOU AS LONG AS IT EVER EXISTED.

[Abcdxxxx]

Which Zionists?

The Socialist worker Zionists? The Pan-Arab Zionists? The Christian Zionists? The Marxist ones? The Zionists born and raised in the Middle East? The Zionists who believe in a Jewish homeland, but not inside Israel?

Zionism as an ideology has existed as long as there's been a Jewish Diaspora.....so what do you think they lied about ?

The desire for self determination? The Holocaust?

[Ant10708]

Only 2.5 million Jews lived in the areas in and around Germany during WW2? where do you get your facts

[Abcdxxxx]

There are currently 1.5 million Jews in Europe.

Once you do the math, the 2.5 million number is another way of saying the Holocaust didn't happen - at all.

[Geggy]

Which one in the list is the zionists of undrground iraq who pushed the palestines into the land of islam? The zionists who tried to pull the arab jews from the land of islam into israel? Maybe they had lied about everything regarding the history of middle east and the arabs?

It's funny if you think about it. Zionist was allied with hitler and germany in ww2. Now it looks to me that the US is currently allied with the Zionists...is history repeating itself???

[Abcdxxxx]

You're insane.

I can tell you that my Iraqi family went to Israel with the Communist party, not with any Zionist organizations...

They left behind a Babylonian culture that predates any notion of a "land of islam" because Jews were being targeted and outlawed.
The wealthier Jews in my family went to Sweden, England, and the US.

Got any more garblygoop non-sequitor accusations ?

[Geggy]

Insane? Not according to what I've read. Why is everything to you is so one sided?

The info I got was from this article...it took me a while to find this article because I've saved shitloads of articles similiar to this one. I usually rely on info from the people who LIVED through it...like this iraqi jew who LIVED through it...

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/impact/iraqijews.cfm

[Spectre X]

Geggy, the things you read are either made-up by crazed anti-semites or twisted around by crazed anti-semites. And maybe some regular conspiracy theorists. Really, it doesn't matter.

The thing is, your proof, and these articles, it's all bull. Maybe not all, but most of it is.

There is no international Jewish conspiracy. The holocaust happened. It really, really did. Six million jews were killed.

Really, Geggy, you need medication, or therapy of some kind. Your rants can't be the product of a healthy mind.

[Geggy]

You mean I'm insane or does it all sound insane to you?

I'm just gonna post this link here and you decide for yourself...

http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Prepare.htm

[Spectre X]

I mean you are insane.

[Jeanette X]

I think a lot of people are questioning the manipulation of the numbers of jewish people who were killed in the holocaust. They've claimed that 6 miliion jews were killed which is impossible because it's already been proven that only 2.5 million jews existed in the area at the time...

Which "area" are you talking about? Germany?

I can't believe you're a Holocaust revisionist. Here I thought you were an okay guy. >:

[Chojin]

That link was hilarious, Geggy, thanks.

[Geggy]

I think you're confusing insanity to real fucking pissed off.

Geggy, the things you read are either made-up by crazed anti-semites or twisted around by crazed anti-semites. And maybe some regular conspiracy theorists. Really, it doesn't matter.

Oooh look who's turning into a conspiracy theorist!
The thing is, your proof, and these articles, it's all bull. Maybe not all, but most of it is.

What if it's not bull...?

There is no international Jewish conspiracy. The holocaust happened. It really, really did. Six million jews were killed.

I agree, holocaust really did happened but how many were really killed? It's sick and absurd of the Zionists to have possibly manipulated the numbers for their own advantage.

Really, Geggy, you need medication, or therapy of some kind. Your rants can't be the product of a healthy mind.

Pat robertson says "thank you" for making me sound insane.

[Chojin]

For example, Pat Robertson considers himself to be a "Christian Zionist". He not only supports everything done in the name of Israel, but he also considers "anti-Zionism" to be a bad thing, as he announced in this speech to Israelis:


"Let us serve our God together by opposing the virulent poison of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism that is rapidly engulfing the world."


Pat Robertson's remark is as ridiculous as somebody saying:

Let us serve our God together by opposing anti-Semitism and car theft.

What does anti-Semitism have to do with car theft? The answer is nothing. And what does anti-Semitism have to do with anti-Zionism? The answer is nothing.
HOW RIDICULOUS BOLDFACE BOLDFACE. They, uh, are related. I think you'll find that most people that hate blacks also hate rap music. AND WHAT IF A JEWISH GUY'S CAR WAS STOLEN, HUH. YOUR HOUSE OF CARDS HAS COLLAPSED.

I'm more liberal than thou and I know better than to trust morons that think you need to use text formatting to make a point. These people are just deficient human beings trying to rationalize their bullshit prejudices.

[Geggy]

Chojin, I'm not sure if i understand the point you're trying to make...he's comparing a car theft to anti-semite as if they aren't even related to one and another as are anti-zionist and anti-semite. Because the people are constantly accusing anti-zionists for being anti-semite, he's just pointing out the zionists' tactics to mix up anti-zionist and anti-semite together to make people think anti-zionists are disrespectful towards the jews in majority and shouldn't be taken seriously...I don't see how's that moronic??? Or are you just jumping in the bandwagon??

I don't consider myself a liberal at all. I guess I'm more of an independent and I'm against the people for their idiocy and wrongdoings, whether they're liberal or conversative.

[Spectre X]

I think you're confusing insanity to real fucking pissed off.

Geggy, the things you read are either made-up by crazed anti-semites or twisted around by crazed anti-semites. And maybe some regular conspiracy theorists. Really, it doesn't matter.

Oooh look who's turning into a conspiracy theorist!

There's no conspiracy. Just a bunch of assholes that read each other's stuff and pretend there is.

And I'm not confusing anything with anything. You sound like a crazy person. Get help.

EDIT: You know, you remind me of the Spathi from Star Control. You come across as someone who believes that the proof of a conspiracy is the fact that it's covered up so well that nobody can find any real evidence towards it.

[Abcdxxxx]

Sorry buster - You left the boundries of being an Anti-Zionist, and started sounding outright anti-Jewish a while ago. As I've said here a billion times, Zionism in the context you're using it has become a safe word for "a cabal of bad evil corrupt Jews". Your "Anti-Zionism" theories are IDENTICAL to the blood libels which define Anti-Semitism.

re: Iraq. I was eligable to vote in Iraq's election. Let's just say I've known a few people who lived through it, aight?

[Geggy]

All I'm saying is anti-semitism is hatred of jews and anti-zionism is opposition to zionism and israeli policies. Would the term "opposition to zionism" sound better to you? Zionism is a group of ideologists like the nazi social movement, the black panthers and the overthrows only zionism is more acceptable to the political system and the society, not so much who are opposed to it. That's just the way I see it.

Just wondering why would the people write fictional stories in order to express their "opposition to zionism"? Is it a piece of propaganda created by islamic and the orthodox jews in hopes to form a large group of zionist opposers to bring down the zionists? If it's all really bull, I'll have to admit I was bit fooled by it.

I apologize for behaving like a holocaust denier...I have the tendency to question everything. 6 million sounds like an exaggeration.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Geggy, the point you keep missing (and one I once failed to grasp) is that you are targeting certain "ideologists" within a movement that is terribly difficult to label or marginalize. I think you say zionist much the way we here in America say "neo-con," like it's one consistent ideology that a bunch of intellectuals decided to cook up and start think-tanks over.

I'm not arguing that Zionism is lacking in those things, but unlike neo-conservatism, it can't be so easily defined in that manner.

[Abcdxxxx]

I'll repeat myself - Your "Anti-Zionism" theories are IDENTICAL to the blood libels which define Anti-Semitism.

Zionism just means you believe in the right of a self governed Jewish homeland. Nothing more, nothing less. It's another way to describe a type of patriotism formed around a diaspora, with the goal to RE-ESTABLISH Jewish soveriengty. That's it.

There will always be those who distort facts, and figure out a way in which to blame Jewish victims for the persecution they suffered, when targeted for no reason other then their Jewishness. ...and that's true wether we're talking about Cruxifictions, the Dreyfuss Affair, Pogroms in Russia, the Holocaust, the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab nations, or the Intifadas.

[Geggy]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think we need to seperate the group of idiots who are anti-zionists for the reason of anti-semitism and the group who are anti-zionists for the reason of opposition to zionists of any kind and the israel's foreign policy itself. That's the point I was making. But ooook, i'll just dismiss the term "anti-zionism" for the respect of jews in majority all over the world.

Thanks a lot, anti-semites. >:

Geggy, the point you keep missing (and one I once failed to grasp) is that you are targeting certain "ideologists" within a movement that is terribly difficult to label or marginalize. I think you say zionist much the way we here in America say "neo-con," like it's one consistent ideology that a bunch of intellectuals decided to cook up and start think-tanks over.

I'm not arguing that Zionism is lacking in those things, but unlike neo-conservatism, it can't be so easily defined in that manner.

So to make it clear, if i'm anti-neocons, then i'm anti-us and a self-hating american...? Just a joke. :(

[KevinTheOmnivore]

nevermind. Keep at it, you're doing great! :domo

[Jeanette X]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think we need to seperate the group of idiots who are anti-zionists for the reason of anti-semitism and the group who are anti-zionists for the reason of opposition to zionists of any kind and the israel's foreign policy itself. That's the point I was making. But ooook, i'll just dismiss the term "anti-zionism" for the respect of jews in majority all over the world.


Its not the anti-Zionism that's irritating me. Its the Holocaust revisionism. Sure the Zionists misused Holocaust imagery, I'll be the first to agree with that. But that doesn't mean that the Holocaust is neccessarily exaggerated. The Zionists didn't have to fucking exaggerate the Holocaust.

When you downplay the Holocaust, you strike a nerve with me. Accusations of exaggeration and manipulation are anti-Semetic, because you are accusing the majority of Jews of being liars.

[Abcdxxxx]

"opposition to zionists of any kind "

That's the problem. Any kind?

Are you in opposition to the Palestinian right to self determination too?! What about the right of Islamic rule over Mecca. Do you oppose that?

[davinxtk]

abcdxxxx, to say that israel re-establishes jewish sovereignty is a joke.
there hadn't been a sovereign jewish nation for how many years before WW2? the turks had palestine tapped. and what, because some ill-construed political agenda wiped out a sizable chunk of their people, we (or rather, a-rabs) owe the jews a chunk of the desert right by the beach? i don't think so.

and i for one certainly oppose any religion's supposed right to the "self-determination" of a geopolitical landscape, as well. i fully believe in the global seperation of church and state. your arguments up to this point have been entertaining to say the least, but now you're starting to sound like you're simply the anti-Gegg.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

and what, because some ill-construed political agenda wiped out a sizable chunk of their people, we (or rather, a-rabs) owe the jews a chunk of the desert right by the beach? i don't think so.

Because the Holocaust perpetrated by Hitler was the only time in history that Jews were the targets of such violence, clearly.

There have always been Jews in Israel/Mandate Palestine/whatever, btw.

[Abcdxxxx]

and what, because some ill-construed political agenda wiped out a sizable chunk of their people, we (or rather, a-rabs) owe the jews a chunk of the desert right by the beach? .


So the Final Solution was just "ill construed" ? Uh.

Israel is a "Chunk" of land ? Have you looked at a map?

Do you realize how dumb you sound saying "DESERT right by the beach" ?

Look, British colonization didn't exactly work so well for you either (you seem to be identifying yourself as an Arab?), and along with the Pan-Arabist movement, Jews saw the chance at a turning point in the Middle East, for self government. Jews have repeated the phrase "next year in Jerusalem" since the destruction of the Temple, since they became a diaspora. The Holocaust did not motivate Israel's creation. Nor did it motivate the carving of TransJordan...or are you just in opposition to Jewish real estate?


These are historical truths:

The Jewish population of Israel either never left, or were RETURNING to their native land. The first Aliyah was made up predominantly of Jews who never left the Mid-East.

There was an established Jewish soveriegn nation on that land around 1312 BCE, thousands of years before Islam existed, and it lasted 700 years until the King of Babylon tried to eradicate the Jews. Even then, Jews survived, and reestablished their autonomy again, this time under Persian rule from 539 BC untill roughly 63 CE. Arabs uprooted more Jews in 636 CE two millenia after the first the rise of a Jewish Homeland.

P.S. Fuck off with the "a-rab" bullshit. Jews aren't backwoods hicks you fuckface. An amazing Judeo-Arabic culture thrives in Israel, along with 1 million non-Jewish Arab citizens.

[davinxtk]

Haha, no, I'm not identifying myself as an arab. I'm an american of mixed european blood, but I can understand where my meaning was miscommunicated. What I meant was that the arabs seem to owe them the land and americans the defense and funding the way things are going. To be smug and obnoxious about it, British colonization worked wonders for my people, generally speaking ;) We've caused most of our own problems ever since.

Maybe I have too secular a mentality to even engage in conversation regarding a patch of land that the three faiths all hold sacred, but the fact that Jews have said "next year in Jerusalem" since their place of worship got razed should have no bearing whatsoever on modern geopolitics.

I also don't recall ever saying that every single jew left the region, either, my point is that the region simply was not solely theirs to rule anywhere remotely close to the creation of the Israeli state as we now know it. (Which in fact was motivated by the sticky situation jews happened to be in aroundabouts 1948 when Mandate Palestine was cut up and later seized by Jordan and Israel).

I am not opposed to Jewish real-estate as much as I'm opposed to a specifically Jewish nation. Maybe the heterogeneous nature of America has me a bit spoiled, but it seems trying to create a nation based on a largely nomadic race simply because they happen to be the majority in the area causes a whole hell of a lot more trouble than it's worth, as the past fifty-someodd years of wars and terroism have exhibited.

Israel is a "Chunk" of land ? Have you looked at a map?

Do you realize how dumb you sound saying "DESERT right by the beach" ?


Yes, Israel is in fact a "chunk" of land in much the same way America, Brazil, and Russia are not. It is also in fact largely comprised of desert territory, and is right next to the Mediterranean, hence, by the beach. Please tell me where I'm wrong here, I'm missing your point.

Because the Holocaust perpetrated by Hitler was the only time in history that Jews were the targets of such violence, clearly.

I'm not sure I understand where you were going with this, Kevin, but if the jews got a new country every time some wacko ruler decided he didn't want them around anymore...

[ItalianStereotype]

then they'd have six countries?

[Abcdxxxx]

What I meant was that the arabs seem to owe them the land and americans the defense and funding

It's a matter of allowing Jews to co-exist and live as citizens in the Mid-East. It's not a matter of owing anyone anything. What a juvenile interpretation of things.


the fact that Jews have said "next year in Jerusalem" since their place of worship got razed should have no bearing whatsoever on modern geopolitics.

Annnnnd it doesn't? ...but what it does do is prove that Jews have always had an interest in a nation of Israel. That it's not a product of the Holocaust, or of an evil invention of modern Zionism. It is proof that before idiots like you abused terminology like "geo-political" there were Jews in every part of the world talking about a Jewish homeland. That there motivation was religious doesn't undermine this.... your personal beliefs, or lack of them shouldn't cloud your judgement or ability to recognize an indigenous people. When Native American Indians reclaimed Alcatraz Island nobody used their seemingly quirky belief system as an excuse to delegitimize their claim to land that was once theirs.


(Which in fact was motivated by the sticky situation jews happened to be in aroundabouts 1948 when Mandate Palestine was cut up and later seized by Jordan and Israel).

Seized? Learn your basic Mid-East history.
1948? There were already 500,000 Jewish residents prior to WW2. The declarations which commited to the creation of two States (one for Jews, Israel, and one for Arabs, Jordan) pre-dated WW2.

Please stop. It's becoming less and less tolerable to hear people say Jews benefited from the genocide of the Holocaust, or that the idea of a Jewish Nation wouldn't have been legit without the guilt off WW2. As a result of generations of persecution, Jews now only make up 0.2% of the population with somewhere between 12-17 million in existance. All the Holocaust did was prove the undeniable immediacy of a Jewish State.


I am not opposed to Jewish real-estate as much as I'm opposed to a specifically Jewish nation. ..... trying to create a nation based on a largely nomadic race simply because they happen to be the majority in the area causes a whole hell of a lot more trouble than it's worth,

Cool. So why does an Islamic nation appeal to you? Or a Roman Catholic one? Are you just taking advantage of Israel being on the table for discussion or is there a double standard here? Atheism is not a superior ideology once it too becomes oppressive with didactic policies pertaining to religious freedoms. Israel is a secular nation. It's tiring that I have to repeat that so often. There is freedom of religion, and speech there, which is more then I can say for the rest of the region. 30% of the country are non-Jews. The majority of the country is secular and non-practicing.


Yes, Israel is in fact a "chunk" of land in much the same way America, Brazil, and Russia are not. It is also in fact largely comprised of desert territory, and is right next to the Mediterranean, hence, by the beach.

It's a blip on the map. It doesn't put a dent in the vast expanse of land governed by Arab rulership. It's location is about as much of an incovenience as India is. Israel was never considered prime beach front property until Jews worked the land and created an agricultural miracle. That's the only reason why it's become a thorn in the side of the Arab League. If you sell someone a rusty broken down Ford, and then you see them whipping down the block in a refurbished shiny classic car, you can't say "look, they took my shiny classic car".

[davinxtk]

Cool. So why does an Islamic nation appeal to you? Or a Roman Catholic one? Are you just taking advantage of Israel being on the table for discussion or is there a double standard here?I wouldn't quite call it taking advantage of anything; I'm not finding the conversation any easier just because we're discussing jews. It just happens to be the topic of conversation, and if the carving of an Islamic, Roman Catholic, Italian, White, Black, Japanese, Jamaican, etc. nation inside an existing one was up for discussion I'd be all over that too, not to worry.

Israel is a secular nation. It's tiring that I have to repeat that so often. There is freedom of religion, and speech there, which is more then I can say for the rest of the region. 30% of the country are non-Jews. The majority of the country is secular and non-practicing.I understand that, but the fact that it's well-known as the jewish state is what creates the problem. If a secular state had been formed in the area without displacing a few hundred thousand Palestinians and giving a specific race decisive self-determination we might not have the same problem on our hands.
Before you say it, I'll go ahead and admit that I'm just playing a 'what-if' game here. Maybe it would have caused more problems, maybe it would have caused twice the racial tensions, maybe the whole nation would have collapsed and been under Lebanese, Syrian, Egyptian or Jordanian control by now.

Please stop. It's becoming less and less tolerable to hear people say Jews benefited from the genocide of the Holocaust, or that the idea of a Jewish Nation wouldn't have been legit without the guilt off WW2.The issue to me isn't whether the jews benefitted from it, it's everyone else in the region who was inconvenienced by it. The fact that there has been almost nothing but war and terrorism since then with little (and only recent) hope of peace is, to me, proof enough that splitting it into pieces and saying "this part is jordan, this part is israel, this tiny chunk in the middle is what's left of palestine" at the very least draws borders between opposing forces where there formerly were none. Why do you have to have two governments in an area less than half the size of MAINE? The problem wasn't necessarily created when Israel was created, it simply took tangible form in the shape of a nation's borders. This argument goes back to when the League of Nations mandated jewish autonomy in Palestine.

It's a matter of allowing Jews to co-exist and live as citizens in the Mid-East. It's not a matter of owing anyone anything. What a juvenile interpretation of things. Abcdxxxx, that's exactly what it's not. It's allowing them to exist in the Middle East, sure, but it's not allowing or even asking them to co-exist. You're drawing a neat little partition and saying 'this land is yours, and you don't necessarily have to get along with anyone in the area to call it that.' Granted that's how the vast majority of the Middle East is run, that doesn't mean it's the most (or even the second most) agreeable solution.

[Abcdxxxx]

What nation was Israel carved out of ?

"If a secular state had been formed in the area without displacing a few hundred thousand Palestinians and giving a specific race decisive self-determination we might not have the same problem on our hands. "

A) There are practically no Jews in any of the Islamic States, where old Jewish communities once existed. There are plenty of Muslims co-existing in peace within Israel.
B) If Israel wasn't set aside for Jews, the Mid-East would be ethnically cleansed of Jews entirely.
C) Be sure to use that same standard when productive communities in the WB and Gaza are uprooted for an Islamic Shari'a State called Palestine.

"it's everyone else in the region who was inconvenienced by it. "

Tough. I'm sorry the existance of Jews inconveniences them about as much as I'm sorry there are Blacks in the South. Check a timeline, there is no corralation betwen Arab terrorism and the birth of Israe. It's really a problem on the side of Arabs when they refuse to co-exist, live under Jewish rule, or even allow Jews to be citizens under their governments. So stop blaming the victims of such racism. You shouldn't think Jews are inconvenience anywhere.

[Geggy]

This thread has gotten interesting but I'm too hungover to argue...

But I will provide an article written back in dec 2001 which shows the fox news had performed an investigation on the Israeli spyring and put together a four part series of the "we report, you decide" israeli spyring in america, yet it was never broadcasted on tv. However the article provided four video clips of the report and I have no clue if the clips are working now. But I can find the clips that works somewhere on the net and will post it...

http://www.mediamonitors.net/justin18.html

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I just found it pretty funny that this guy wrote the article:

http://www.mediamonitors.net/images/justinraimondo.jpg

[Abcdxxxx]

Quick. Ammend the Tshirt.

Fox lies (accept when it fits a Leftist conspiracy agenda!)

Insert Geggy link to David Duke essay with unimpeachable proof that Jews control the media.

[Geggy]

Criminals comes in all forms, colors and shapes, regardless of their race, nationality, religion, etc.

You're making it sound like the jewish people are different kind of lifeform who came to earth from their planet babylons long, long, long time ago and they're the most fabulous and angelic species when in fact, they're human just like the rest of us. It seems to me that you fell for their "anti-zionist=anti-semite" propaganda. They're even racists for using their own people as shields. The way they've provoked the holocaust is no different than the bush administration have been provoking 9/11.

One insight I've been speculating that one of the reasons the Israel spyring report was pulled was to avoid fueling anti-semitic behavoir towards the Jewish people. Afterall vast majority of people, like david dukes and yourself, are narrow-viewed and ignorant. Look what had happened after group of muslims were blamed for executing the 9/11 attacks. Therre were a hell lot of anger towards the muslim community mainly because of people like david dukes and yourself, who are narrow-viewed and ignorant. It's just simple as that.

[Abcdxxxx]

OKay nutfuck...perhaps if turds like yourself weren't so fixated on blaming Jews for the Holocause while simultaneously denying it ....not to mention embracing every single fucking conspiracy which blames Jews....and parroting centuries of blood libels that have left my people nearly extinct.... perhaps then I might be a little more apt to agree and talk about the bad Jews....but you haven't given me one reason to indulge you fuckhead. You're a worthless piece of shit who isn't interested in healthy debate or conversation...you hate...and you hate Jews....and the sad part is, you probably don't know any. One day you'll wake the fuck up and cringe for making these posts. Untill then, rot on your own spittle.

[Abcdxxxx]

Quick. Ammend the Tshirt.

Fox lies (accept when it fits a Leftist conspiracy agenda!)

Insert Geggy link to David Duke essay with unimpeachable proof that Jews control the media.

[Ant10708]

Geggy sounds like Michael Jackson.

[Jeanette X]

It's just simple as that.

Vince always says that, Geggy.

[ziggytrix]

When you downplay the Holocaust, you strike a nerve with me. Accusations of exaggeration and manipulation are anti-Semetic, because you are accusing the majority of Jews of being liars.

It kinda pisses me off too. My grandad didn't risk life and limb at the Battle of the Bulge just to have historical revisionists say "oh that Hitler, he wasn't so bad..."

But I don't see it as anti-Semitism - more like antiestablishmentarianism, at least in Geggy's case. http://lucky.to/modules/phpBB2/images/smiles/dex.gif

[Abcdxxxx]

(Did some threads get combined here?)


Ziggy - You're right about it being anti-establishmentsajhdfdhf and that's obviously the appeal....but when a liberal movement embraces some form of racism towards a minority group I'm not sure what benefit there is to kid glove it. Thanks to some French theorists, and a few others they think it's their duty to take the Holocaust down a peg and question it... but then they deny it as rhetoric while taking on an entirely new rhetoric, it's like putting an anti-semite audio tape into a Teddy Ruxpin doll.

Holocaust denial, and hatred of Jews has become fashionable. It's on television, it's in best Selling books.... hate crimes are up.... It's important to talk about it for what it is. Not merely Anti-Israel, but Anti-Jewish.