Koran & Murder Case

[Kulturkampf]

Taken from TimesOnline. (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,174-2001006,00.html)

"COPIES of the Koran were handed to the jurors in the Abu Hamza trial yesterday as his defence argued that some of the cleric’s “offensive� statements were drawn directly from Islam’s holy book.

Edward Fitzgerald, QC, for the defence, said that Abu Hamza’s interpretation of the Koran was that it imposed an obligation on Muslims to do jihad and fight in the defence of their religion. He said that the Crown case against the former imam of Finsbury Park Mosque was “simplistic in the extreme�.

He added: “It is said he was preaching murder, but he was actually preaching from the Koran itself.� "

In defense of hateful and speech inciting to violence, an Imam is defended by multiculturalists in the sense that this violence and jihad is an integral part of his culture and his holy book.

It is excellent when liberal doctrine gets them to begin justifying Islamic fundamentalism preaching murder of Jews as being a right due to a multicultural heritage -- just put a clown nose on and get it over with.

[executioneer]

how's it going mad max

[Immortal Goat]

In defense of hateful and speech inciting to violence, an Imam is defended by multiculturalists in the sense that this violence and jihad is an integral part of his culture and his holy book.

It is excellent when liberal doctrine gets them to begin justifying Islamic fundamentalism preaching murder of Jews as being a right due to a multicultural heritage -- just put a clown nose on and get it over with.
Because Conservatives have NEVER used a holy book of any sort to justify their hateful actions towards a minority :rolleyes:

[ScruU2wice]

yeah Imam's are the super liberal folks, they love the gays, hug trees and fight global warming.


But I'm glad you think that if one psycho says that the koran said it was ok to murder someone, it is an comment on the whold of Islam.

[executioneer]

doesn't this guy seem a little mad maxish to anyone else or is it just me :(

[Immortal Goat]

I thought Vince, but Mad Max could be possible, too.

[Pharaoh]

It's Islam that's on trial here now.
The defense is saying that Abu Hamza isn't preaching murder and hate because he's just preaching what is in the Koran. Which means if he's found not guilty it's Islam that's hateful, not Abu Hamza. So the Koran will be proven to be preaching murder and hate.
Which means he'll have to found guilty, unless we're going to ban the Koran, which is highly unlikely.

[Chojin]

So I assume both of you have read the Koran, yes?

[Ant10708]

which translation :puke

[Chojin]

Saint john, of course

[Pharaoh]

So I assume both of you have read the Koran, yes?

I have. The N.J.Dawood translation. Have you?
I expected it to be simillar to the Bible, but I was surprised at how aggressive and intolerant of non-Muslims it was throughout. I think every non-Muslim should read it, it's a real eye-opener.

[Chojin]

I have not, then again I don't make threads about what it does or does not say.

And I don't believe you.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

NEVER used a holy book of any sort to justify their hateful actions towards a minority :rolleyes:

Well, this is an interesting point to make however. If some Southern Baptist is reading from the Bible to rationalize violence or hating gays, what do you do? You clearly jump on them for it, right?

I somehow don't think the "multiculturalists" (I'm sorry, it fits) would react quite the same way to hate speech from the Koran.

[Pharaoh]

I've got it in front of me right now. I'll post a picture of any page you want, Chojin.

[Immortal Goat]

It's wrong no matter who it is or what the book is. That's the point. It isn't the book that tells them to do it, but their interpretation of what the book says. Hate is hate, no matter who it guilty of it.

[Chojin]

I would like you to snapshot the page of the color-by-numbers picture of mohammed having sex with your mother while jesus looks on in prison :<

[KevinTheOmnivore]

It's wrong no matter who it is or what the book is. That's the point. It isn't the book that tells them to do it, but their interpretation of what the book says. Hate is hate, no matter who it guilty of it.

Sure, and I know that you truly believe that. But this discussion (as every discussion these guys start....sigh) is less about muslims and gays and whatever, and is more about the reaction to these things that you get from so-called liberals, leftists, or whatever.

And i think it is a fair point that liberals today are quicker to jump all over fringe Christians than the fringe muslims.

[ziggytrix]

Well, shit. If I had to deal with fringe muslims day in and day out, I'd probably be quicker to run my mouth about em, too.

[Immortal Goat]

I think that is the key element there. Fringe Muslims are not as prevalent in America, and therefor not jumped all over by reactionary liberals. It isn't saying that liberals accept the bigotry of fringe Muslims, just that they don't deal with it as often.

[Cosmo Electrolux]

So I assume both of you have read the Koran, yes?

I have. The N.J.Dawood translation. Have you?
I expected it to be simillar to the Bible, but I was surprised at how aggressive and intolerant of non-Muslims it was throughout. I think every non-Muslim should read it, it's a real eye-opener.

I have to agree....my jaw dropped when I first read it...

[Pharaoh]

I would like you to snapshot the page of the color-by-numbers picture of mohammed having sex with your mother while jesus looks on in prison :<

You're pathetic.

[glowbelly]

N.J. Dawood is perhaps the only Jew to have translated the Quran into English. Available in the Penguin edition, Dawood's translation, The Koran (London, 1956) is perhaps the most widely circulated non-Muslim English translation of the Quran. The author's bias against Islam is readily observable in the Introduction. Apart form adopting an unusual Sura order in his translation, Dawood is guilty also of having mistranslated the Quran in places such as Baqara II:9 and A'raf VII:31, etc.

http://www.islam101.com/quran/transAnalysis.htm

[Abcdxxxx]

There is no one translation you can blame for misleading the public into thinking Islam is daggers. Their actions in the name of the Koran probably reach a larger audience on the news every night, then Dadwoods total sales on Amazon. I've compared verses with devout Muslims, and gone back and forth. The problem is, there is not a single accurate English translation on the market. The Koran doesn't translate (nor does the The Bible, honestly. Look at the King James version...yikes).

The general ideas are all the same though, even when described in lesser terms. Islamic scholars who take a more liberal approach will never argue one verse at a time, they'll compare contradictions later on to say "see, so when the Koran say's to beat your wife, it means to do with a toothbrush, and that's silly, so it's obviously not a literal commandment".

[Pharaoh]

As if any Muslim today would recommend a Jew's translation of the Koran. The only translations they approve of are by Muslims. And that's because the only people they approve of are Muslims.

[Abcdxxxx]

Well, it is their scriptures. Why would they approve of anyone elses version of THEIR scriptures? More to the point, they're reading the text in it's native language. They only concern themselves with the translations when it comes to public image, and answering critics.

Edit: The flipside of that are those who say that Muslims translating the Koran into English would be the biased ones, using less harsh language, and that this translation is the only independent outsider translation.

[ziggytrix]

They only concern themselves with the translations when it comes to public image, and answering critics.


Oh come on. With remarks like that how is anyone supposed to take you seriously? If I said those exact words, only was talking about Jews, you'd be screaming ANTISEMITE at me!

[Abcdxxxx]

Well, go ahead. Let's pretend you said "Jews only concern themselves with the translations when it comes to public image, and answering critics. "

.... it would be inaccurate, dumbshit. A huuuuuge amount of American Jews use English translations during worship. It was a biproduct of assimilation. That isn't the case with practicing Muslims. What other uses do they have for English text besides outreach, and image? You're kidding yourself if you think the Farsi speaking Muslim, and the Arabic speaking Muslim are finding happy middle ground using an English Koran.

[ziggytrix]

That's beside the point. Unless you'd have me believe antisemitic speech is generally considered accurate. :rolleyes

[Abcdxxxx]

Entire sects of Judaism use English text as their prime source for the Torah. What's the equivalent of that in Islam?

[ScruU2wice]

:eek CRUSADE :eek

[ScruU2wice]

It is becoming increasingly hard to take this thread seriously, and it was a pretty much a joke from the get go. It's true though all the boogeymen under your bed are muslims, they can live for weeks on end solely on tea and bread.

and seriously what about all these cons that go into prison, and come out muslims. Isn't that evidence enough for you that Islam is a hateful religion. I'm not an exception either guys, the other day I got a speeding ticket.

All I'm saying is that Islam is on trial here (and in no way is this a ploy to try to get off the hook at all) and it's going to be these 12 middle americans that will decide it's fate..


ISLAM YOU'RE ON NOTICE...

[Kulturkampf]

So I assume both of you have read the Koran, yes?

Apparently the defense lawyer and the imam have, and both agree that it justifies preaching the hatred of Jewish people and thus protects this sort of speech. It is their own defense in their own trial.

I want to rad the Koran, now, just to say I have and highlight every shit part of it that I can.

[Kulturkampf]

N.J. Dawood is perhaps the only Jew to have translated the Quran into English. Available in the Penguin edition, Dawood's translation, The Koran (London, 1956) is perhaps the most widely circulated non-Muslim English translation of the Quran. The author's bias against Islam is readily observable in the Introduction. Apart form adopting an unusual Sura order in his translation, Dawood is guilty also of having mistranslated the Quran in places such as Baqara II:9 and A'raf VII:31, etc.

http://www.islam101.com/quran/transAnalysis.htm

LOL.

You are saying the translation is going ot be abnormally hateful and wrong because a Jew translated it?

I guess that the Muslims were upset that he wasn't one of the Jews hiding behind the trees that were shouting: "There is a Jew behind me! Kill him!"

[Pharaoh]

I want to rad the Koran, now, just to say I have and highlight every shit part of it that I can.

Just highlight the parts that aren't shit, it'll use up a lot less ink.
In fact it won't use up any.

[Pharaoh]

It is becoming increasingly hard to take this thread seriously, and it was a pretty much a joke from the get go. It's true though all the boogeymen under your bed are muslims, they can live for weeks on end solely on tea and bread.

and seriously what about all these cons that go into prison, and come out muslims. Isn't that evidence enough for you that Islam is a hateful religion. I'm not an exception either guys, the other day I got a speeding ticket.

All I'm saying is that Islam is on trial here (and in no way is this a ploy to try to get off the hook at all) and it's going to be these 12 middle americans that will decide it's fate..





ISLAM YOU'RE ON NOTICE...

It's certainly hard to take you seriously, I mean you do realise this trial is in Britain don't you? I don't there'll be 12 middle Americans on the jury somehow.

[Chojin]

Just highlight the parts that aren't shit, it'll use up a lot less ink.
In fact it won't use up any.
:lol Dude, it's a religious text. Are you going to debunk the bible next? WATER INTO WINE? THAT DOESN'T SOUND RIGHT TO ME. :/

I'm still waiting on that scan. Could you do me a favor and pose nude in the background? We could post it down at planned parenthood as an ominous warning to the prospective homo parents.

[Pharaoh]

Just highlight the parts that aren't shit, it'll use up a lot less ink.
In fact it won't use up any.
:lol Dude, it's a religious text. Are you going to debunk the bible next? WATER INTO WINE? THAT DOESN'T SOUND RIGHT TO ME. :/

I'm still waiting on that scan. Could you do me a favor and pose nude in the background? We could post it down at planned parenthood as an ominous warning to the prospective homo parents.

Well water into wine sounds good to me, I guess you'd prefer orange juice, one glass of wine and you're puking your guts out. :lol

You assumed I hadn't read the Koran. I have. You lost.
You accused me of lying and you didn't dare to take up my challenge to prove I wasn't. You lost again.
You're not only a loser, but you're a sore loser, and there's nothing worse than a sore loser. :wah

[glowbelly]

you can get a free koran from here:

https://www.cair-net.org/explorethequran/request.asp

it's actually a really nice volume. i thought i would get a little paperback book, but i ended up receiving a beautiful hard cover huge copy of the koran that's easy to read with lots of notes/annotations.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Pharaoh, I'm a Muslim. Not a convert. I was born a Muslim, I lived in a Muslim country all of my life, I've been to Mecca three times, I've read the Koran in its original language AND in Farsi AND I think you're stupid.

I don't think you can possibly call yourself educated enough to make sweeping judgements about religion.

You've read ONE translation of the Koran which convinces you that it's brimming with bullshit. I repeat: That is one translation. Authors LIE and misquote religious texts all the time EVEN if they are part of that religion. I've read loads of shitty translations written by other actual Muslims: Pakistanis, Indonesians, Saudis. They were bad enough to make me want to throttle myself to the floor. It's not frusterating because it's merely misleading, it's frusterating because I've read the original text and I know what's in it. That makes it easier for me to detect shit when I read/hear it. And throughout this thread my fucking detector just wouldn't shut up, thanks to your post and that other one's, Kultureadsdfkampf.

Do you know how many translations of the Koran exist in the English language?

Over 200.

Do you honestly think that every one of them is reliable? Do you honestly think that none of these are going to be biased? Do you think that none of these authors will want to convince you of certain things that aren't necessarily true, and don't you think that if that is their aim they would go out of their way and skew certain facts and misquote a few verses just to convince you of something that isn't really there?

If you stopped trying to brand others with illiteracy, and dealt with your own suffering of said problem, you'd actually realize that it's an accepted practice that you cannot translate from one language to another (as your stunning rendition of Arabic to English is showing us now) flawlessly.

Different words exist in different cultures, Japan has the same word for catastrophe as opportunity. Imagine the difference this would make when you're trying to translate an incredibly old text which has words in it that aren't even used in modern Arabic. There are at least 22 Arabic dialects - Those in the Persian Gulf have similar words that refer to completely different things than those in North Africa. Imagine how differently we would all interpret the Koran upon reading.

The Koran doesn't preach MURDER. The koran preaches the right to DEFEND - and if that has to be through murder then so be it. It does not give you the right to attack until it's a last resort. You have to be attacked in order to attack back, and even then, you have to do it through the right party. You can not kill innocent Jews, for example, just because Jewish Israeli soldiers killed a bunch of Muslims in Palestine. That goes against the Koran and is punishible.

The Koran is such a difficult text to comprehend that even MUSLIMS misunderstand most of it, why fucking else would we (the Sunnis) keep fighting with the Shiites? Why fucking else are Wahabists looked down upon in Islamic countries other than Saudi Arabia? Why fucking else are Islamic feminists in constant battle with Muslim political feminists in the Arab world? Because we all interpreted the verses differently.

Islam is not an easy religion. You can't label things 'A' and 'B' and assume that all of us are going to agree with your ever so stupid assumptions. That's why it's a major in many Universities, especially in the Middle East. I know what you're thinking: But they all speak Arabic, why can't they just read it in its original text and understand what it means? Because we too are mislead. That is why stupid terrorists have fooled many of you into believing that they are doing this for the sake of Islam.

Bullshit.

They are doing this for the sake of MONEY. Terrorist organizations around the world are not out to help you understand Islam, nor do they want to convert the world to this religion that they clearly do not understand. They want your money, they want our lives. I say OUR lives because they kill and threaten us as much as they threaten you. I come from Bahrain, which is 45 minutes away from Khobar, Saudi Arabia. I've had family members die due to domestic terrorism. Why would a Muslim attack a fellow Muslim?

Firstly because our corrupt and rediculous governments let them get away with it. Secondly, they get PAID. They do this shit because it helps them get their friends out of prison. "If you don't let them go, we will keep attacking!"

We don't have the technology required to track these mofos down.

Terrorists exists today because their methods work. We have a laughable political culture where you can get away with shady shit. Sudan is known for financially assisting terrorist organizations, so are some really wealthy Saudis. What the fuck does that have to with us? Why do we get the blame as 'Muslims' and 'Arabs' if most of us don't have the heart to do what we are accused of?

When shit like this happens, it does not mean that we are stupid sheep following the headless Zombie that goes by 'Prophet Mohammed', nor does it mean that we are following a religion blindly without wanting to understand what it truly means. It simply means that our media is privately owned and we are forced to sit through the world looking at us through one lense. Basically, we have no choice but to sit here and watch painfully tedious moronic loners like Pharaoh who thinks it's fun to moon a religion and orders it to kiss his herpes-infested asshole because, guess what guys? He's not buying any of it. Big deal. If you think Muslims are the shit on the shoes of humanity then you'd be the dog licking it.

I pity anyone who bases their opinions on a single book they read about a religion they are still clueless about. I shudder with embarrassment for anyone who believes such generalizations without feeling the need to get off their flabby asses and research it further instead of nodding their heads and agreeing to place entirely different NATIONS and beliefs under ONE lazy catagory.

We don't all believe in the same thing. An average Muslim in Muritania would be different than your average Muslim in Yemen. Get over it and hush your sassing.

I argue all the time with other Muslims about what the Koran really says. I argue all the time with professors who teach Islamic Studies abroad. We all argue, but we don't do it ignorantly like you do because we've lived through this our whole lives. We've seen how this religion evolve and change and it saddens me that it has gone downhill due to mass media. The professors I've encountered were living amongst Muslims for many years, studying their movements, studying the different groups of Muslims, and even THEY still admit that they're clueless when it comes to the Koran because they have yet to find a propler translation that doesn't go against what they've seen in Muslim countries they've lived in.

You can't possibly understand terrorism if you're not from a region that has to deal with this everyday. I'm not talking about your yearly 9/11. I'm not talking about European attacks. I'm talking about driving to Saudi to see your family only to be stopped by armed men that look exactly like the terrorists you're constantly exposed to on TV, only to be humiliated in front of others. If you think what you're going through is hell, you can see what these "Muslims" are doing to their fellow Muslims. Imams do this. In my country alone there's 4 official sex offenders who used to preach in mosques. How fucking ironic, dumbass. You'd probably insist that Allah asked them to stab these girls with their wooden peckers. He is so evil, yeah? HE WANTS HIS FOLLOWERS TO TAKE OVER UR COUNTRY RUN FOR THE HILLS. KIDDING GO MAKE ME A SANDWICH.

I studied the Koran for 6 years and STILL, I don't consider myself an expert. Maybe it has to do with the fact that I'm still 19, but only now have I travelled abroad to pursue a proper education. I've been in a public school studying Persian and Islamic studies and trying my damndest to analyze things accurately. It didn't work that well - because the language used in the Koran is difficult, since it's so perfect and exceptional. But it still felt like I was trying to read through numbers.

But you come here, with your stupid little translation and tell the other members that you know more about this religion than your average ugly toad?

I am SO sick of dimwits like you not knowing how to differentiate between a government, its people, and the religion they supposedly follow. Ahmednijad of Iran is a dick because he's power hungry and his breath smells like fishcakes, not because he's simply Muslim. If he attacked America he'd do it because he's a big dick whose breath smells like fishcakes, not because he's following the Koran.

The Sharia law is a joke because most of it is INVENTED by people who want POWER. Look at Saudi's history and I fucking dare you to prove me wrong. I'm sure you'd still try, by bringing Pat Buchanen along and be so sure that what he has to say is based on accurate analysis and observation and is therefore a solid fact, because you're stupid. And I don't mean just 'haha, stupid.' I mean, 'I want to stomp your face in,' stupid. I mean, 'I want to eat you inside out while you're still alive,' stupid. And this is why I appear to be a tad miffed and irate.

Just highlight the parts that aren't shit, it'll use up a lot less ink.
In fact it won't use up any.
I'm sure you can do all sorts of other exciting things with the crayons they let you draw with.

Seriously, what a cretinous thread.

Like the sound of a baby shitting itself.

[Pharaoh]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[ziggytrix]

Wow, Pharaoh. You're a real asshole.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Spare us.

[Dr. Boogie]

I see that Pharaoh, like kulture, has come to this forum in search of meaningful debate.

[Cosmo Electrolux]

Pharaoh is another closed minded conservative moron whose sole reason to exist is to call people who disagree with him a "liberal" or "hippy"

[Abcdxxxx]

Excellent post from Fuzzbot. Unfortunately, I don't think the climate within Islam is nearly as progressive and open minded for discussion as he makes it sound. Like I've said before, the idea of the Arabist Muslim is a myth in and of itself. The people of these nations allow their governments to either misrepresent or oppress them, without recourse. Groups like CAIR will send you a free Koran, preach peace, and then support militant groups, and promote the Shari'a laws. I think his ideals are correct, and fairly progressive, but the thought that extremists are marginalized within the community isn't exactly true right now. Hopefully, with his generation, that will become a reality soon.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Don't ever, ever again say that nobody on this board will engage you on the issues. You're an ass.

ABC is right, that was a very insightful post. Regarding the generational stuff-- I was led to believe that the coming generation in these countries would make the difference. I also read countless tales of Iran getting anxious for modernity.

This is why the election of Ahmadinejad struck me as quite a surprise. I mean, I know he campaigned differently than he is governing, but the guy still essentially ean as a populist. I don't see how a younger generation yearning for pop culture and freedom could ever tolerate this guy....

[Pharaoh]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Don't ever, ever again say that nobody on this board will engage you on the issues. You're an ass.



I never have said that, I don't care if you debate with me or not. If you think I'm going to respond properly to stuff like 'And I don't mean just 'haha, stupid.' I mean, 'I want to stomp your face in,' stupid. I mean, 'I want to eat you inside out while you're still alive,' stupid.', then you're an ass.

[Kulturkampf]

Insightful post from Fuzzbox?

LOL.

It was:

"Hey, I am a Muslim from a Muslim country SO SHUT UP BECAUSE ONLY MY OPINION IS VALID, it is not as if I am BIAS, i tis just that you are IGNORANT and don't understand anything about the Koran... "

He does not bother to address any of the issues or questions that we have concerning the utter hatred in it, and how it has been used by Islamists to reference times where apparently trees were calling out "Come here, there is a Jew hiding behind me -- kill him!"

Be respectful in the future, Fuzzbox, and try to explain yourself.

Just because you have liberal cheerleaders here does not mean that you hae the right to be aggressive and skip over arguments as they do.

[ziggytrix]

Insightful post from Fuzzbox?
He does not bother to address any of the issues or questions that we have concerning the utter hatred in it, and how it has been used by Islamists to reference times where apparently trees were calling out "Come here, there is a Jew hiding behind me -- kill him!"

I guess you missed this part?

The Koran doesn't preach MURDER. The koran preaches the right to DEFEND - and if that has to be through murder then so be it. It does not give you the right to attack until it's a last resort. You have to be attacked in order to attack back, and even then, you have to do it through the right party. You can not kill innocent Jews, for example, just because Jewish Israeli soldiers killed a bunch of Muslims in Palestine. That goes against the Koran and is punishible.

BTW, unless you are talking about the cut of a fabric the word "bias" as in "I have a bias" is a noun. The word "biased" as in "I am biased" is an adjective. Not trying to play grammar nazi, but that little snippet of your ignorance just happens to be a pet peeve of mine. :(

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Don't ever, ever again say that nobody on this board will engage you on the issues. You're an ass.



I never have said that, I don't care if you debate with me or not. If you think I'm going to respond properly to stuff like 'And I don't mean just 'haha, stupid.' I mean, 'I want to stomp your face in,' stupid. I mean, 'I want to eat you inside out while you're still alive,' stupid.', then you're an ass.
You dismissed an entire post that went against EVERYTHING you said in this thread merely because you didn't like how I phrased that? You poor, piteous pipsqueak.

I don't see how a younger generation yearning for pop culture and freedom could ever tolerate this guy....
That's exactly it.

Do you know how he gained his popularity at first? He promised modernization. My mother is an Iranian immigrant (loads of those in Bahrain) and she was all for him at first. He said all kinds of sweet stuff that included things such as making all schools and universities coeducational, of course it would appeal to his citizens.

Many Iranians are against him now because he clearly went against everything he said. For some reason they were trying to deny the fact that he's just going to fuck up the country further. They felt like he gave them hope, protection, and a better future. Only now do they realize what a mistake they made, but who else were they going to pick? Someone this young and energetic who filled their heads with ideals he doesn't really believe in, or a former thief and liar who is very submissive to the West's wants and needs?

He's a great public speaker, people were deceived by his pretty words. I've heard him talk. The "honesty" that is expressed so sensitively is extremely persuasive and seductive. We are not built to react with caution when we come across beautiful, alluring things. This region is so fucked up that almost anything goes, just tell us "I have hope" and consider our votes yours.

It's only after you think about what he says more clearly that you realize how dangerous he is. Now he's crossed the line, no one trusts him and it's causing a lot of chaos in Iran. CNN makes it seem like the Iranians are all for him, that is not true. I say this because I am exposed to many Iranians' opinions everyday. I grew up with these people. Most of my cousins still reside there. I come from a country where thousands of Iranians migrated to during the Islamic Revolution. They were treated badly, so they reacted badly, we had to deport a lot of them.

The rest, who were more calm because they were desperate for a place to stay, started families, so the Shiite Iranian population is fairly large. Though many have moved on to other places - Jordan, UAE, etc, some are in exile in those places. Our King, in celebration of Eid about 3 years ago, pardoned them all, but not many decided to come back to the country that offered nothing but shit in return.

In Bahrain there's a similar situation (though not half as bad, thank God.) It's MY generation who are making the difference. People my age are constantly protesting, writing, insisting that their voices don't go unheard until finally, the government turned around and listened to what we had to say. Because of this, the Family Law in Bahrain is going to change. Because of this, Bahrain is turning into a democratic monarchy instead of remaining a strict constitutional monarchy, we can now write freely in private journals and newsletters and not get punished because our constitution include articles that give you many rights of freedom of expression.

After those rights were given, so many people started writing books that I believe will soon make a good difference.

Bahrain is the 3rd most dangerous country in the world to blog from because everything we write was used against us. Many political bloggers were imprisoned or have "disappeared" due to the articles they posted. We did not accept that. After many cases such as this, we stood up, and wrote as many articles as possible to stop this. And not just people my age, literally everyone. Political activists of all parties and of all ages faught together as a tightly-knit community which shook the entire nation. Newspapers, magazines, websites, protests, and (unfortunately) many acts of violence. It took years for these things to have such a strong effect, strong enough that the state would consider changing laws that have existed for years.

But it worked, so if anyone ever tells you that rebelling is for the weak and you can never do it right through noisy and angry protests, kick them in the shins. This is the only reason we've come this far, to be one of the most democratic countries in the Middle East.

After a huge petition, not only are webmasters no longer required to register with the state and offer a brief description of the nature of their website (so that they can either approve or disapprove of it) anymore, we can write whatever we want in the websites we own. Obviously, most people who own websites are youngsters. But most of the people who are politically involved are youngsters too, because we've seen the way others live and we want it.

We don't want the American lifestyle, that is not what we want. If someone here tells me that we are a mess and we blame it on America because we're jealous of the way we live, then I shall kick their face. We have other things in mind. We also DO take responsibility for our actions, we don't blame America or the Jews or convince ourselves that everything is a Zionist Conspiracy - this is precisely why fights break out between religious groups within the country. That whole "let's all group the Arabs in one place and assume they all have the same mentality, they all hate America and wish death and AIDS upon us" is a scam that makes you want to loathe a bunch of people who didn't even have a thing against you. As a matter of fact, we quite like you. We like you so much that we have American schools and American products and places to go for Americans to show them how welcome they are, and we don't do it through fear. We do it because any American who goes there willingly is great because they're giving us a chance, they want to learn.

Unless you're an American who has to be there because it's an order. Still, why don't you contact American marines who are based in Bahrain and see how happy they are? Hell, some of these people were so happy that I know of at least 2 soldiers who married Bahrainis after converting to Islam. Others can't help but learn more about Islam and attempt to speak the Arabic language because they realize, after actually living there, that we are greatly misunderstood.

But, in sum, we don't kiss your asses. Liking wouldn't have anything to do with fear or wanting to be more like you. What we want is to stick to our culture, beliefs, and traditions but to be more modern about it - for example, arranged marriages shouldn't exist. We should be allowed to mishmash with one another no matter what our gender is - this works perfectly in Bahrain. A woman can freely walk around with miniskirts hand-in-hand with a guy and no one could tell her anything. This is one of our big steps forward. Another big step forward is more freedom through Islam.

We also want a better future financially, so one of our goals is to keep growing economically, making more and more investments, since employment has been an issue. We are doing this very well - but I'm afraid the UAE and Qatar might be in the lead. (Yes, it's a competition. Members of the GCC don't get along because each country wants to get ahead of the other. This is because all you need in the Middle East in order to succeed is power and wealth, and any crucial GCC leader would have both. This means America would want to ally with you because you can control other members of the GCC and have the ability to bend them to your will. VERY good, we are trying to kick Saudi Arabia out of that spotlight but due to the fact that we are the size of a bathtub compared to the rest of the region, this might not work too well. However, the UAE might do this within the next 20 years. They have bigger, better, and smarter plans.)

But, to go back to your point again, yes. Iranians won't accept Ahmednijad because he keeps saying "we will make progress" but nothing's going on, if anything it just keeps getting worse.

The more young people are engaged (which is currently the case in Iran,) three things might happen:
1) The less seriously you're taken as a nation, 2) The more chaotic the situation will be because the youngsters are also more destructive, fearless and violent,
3) The better the outcome will be (as seen in the example I gave with Bahrain's youth.)

Many Iranians feel helpless because they have to deal with yet another totalitarian leader, but most will fight back. Many are going out of their way to try and make the American media understand that they are in dire need of HELP, but not through war. Iran has done and built a lot in preparation for this moment, ever since the Iran-Iraqi wars they've been paranoid. If America thinks this is going to be just another easy Iraq they are dead wrong, this will be a huge mistake on their part.

If you want to know more things about Islam, especially in Iran, check out John Esposito's "Islam and Politics." Wonderful stuff, the guy knows what he's talking about. For an introduction to the conflicts between Iran and America throughout history, check out Kenneth Pollack's "The Persian Puzzle."

[Jeanette X]

Taken from TimesOnline. (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,174-2001006,00.html)

"COPIES of the Koran were handed to the jurors in the Abu Hamza trial yesterday as his defence argued that some of the cleric’s “offensive� statements were drawn directly from Islam’s holy book.

Edward Fitzgerald, QC, for the defence, said that Abu Hamza’s interpretation of the Koran was that it imposed an obligation on Muslims to do jihad and fight in the defence of their religion. He said that the Crown case against the former imam of Finsbury Park Mosque was “simplistic in the extreme�.

He added: “It is said he was preaching murder, but he was actually preaching from the Koran itself.� "

In defense of hateful and speech inciting to violence, an Imam is defended by multiculturalists in the sense that this violence and jihad is an integral part of his culture and his holy book.

It is excellent when liberal doctrine gets them to begin justifying Islamic fundamentalism preaching murder of Jews as being a right due to a multicultural heritage -- just put a clown nose on and get it over with.

Which verses are they even talking about? I bet you certainly wouldn't even know offhand.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

He does not bother to address any of the issues or questions that we have concerning the utter hatred in it, and how it has been used by Islamists to reference times where apparently trees were calling out "Come here, there is a Jew hiding behind me -- kill him!"
Um.

1) The Prophet Mohammed had Jewish friends who supported him. In his Hadiths, he referred to them as 'friends.' He referred to them as 'fellows,' members of the same human species. He did not call anyone an enemy unless they threatened to kill him. He was also very forgiving.

2) Many Hadiths suggest that he never felt like it was right to hate anyone, mainly because the Koran is strongly against 'hate.' In fact, the word 'hate' is not included in the Koran.

3) He forgave a Jewish woman called Hind from his tribe who killed his uncle Hamza (who was also one of his biggest supporters.) She also ate his kidney in front of the Prophet as an insult. She later converted to Islam.

4) Paradise is there for non-Muslims too. This is a fact and if you try to deny this then you should go back to square one, because everyone I know who's studied Islam knows this.

5) It is officially against Islam to not accept (or judge) anyone merely because they are from a different religion. In its own words, it's considered "foolish" and "shameful," how do you expect to grow intellectually if you're not willing to accept people the way they are?

6) It is officially against Islam to forcefully convert anyone.
"You have your own religion, they have theirs." In other words, let them be.

I will scan these lines from the verses I am referring to, if only to show you how incredibly ignorant you are. After I scan these in, give them to any Arabic speaker. Tell them the name of the verse and the page number those lines are in and you will realize how little you know.

If you copy anything to me (ESPECIALLY FROM THE INTERNET), I want to know the page number in the Koran. I then want to translate the proper line for you and if you want tell you where you can find an Arabic to English dictionary so you can do some work yourself.

I spoke about me being Muslim because I want to stress the fact that I speak through experience, I'm not making things up for the sake of stirring shit with you. It's normal for me to be passionate about something I grew up with, it's important for me to defend a religion that is misunderstood, I find it disgusting that you're not even giving me a chance, as a Muslim, to explain things to you from my own point of you. It goes to say how you're not willing to learn. It's dangerous to walk in here thinking you have a mind better than anyone else's. If someone puts me in my place, I would shut my mouth and learn a thing or two instead of kicking and screaming like a fucking fetus. You're entitled to your own opinion but being exposed to mine would mean that you would have a better argument next time, so I'm doing this for your own good. You'd be considering all of my points instead of jumping up and down trying to convince others that you have something of substance to say. You really don't.

Remember.

Page numbers. Reliable Hadith references. You got up someone's ass because they said it's shady that a Jew would translate the Koran and yet you feel like they'd do it without being biased at ALL (ha!), but I wonder what your opinion would be if a Muslim would write a book about Judaism. Surely you wouldn't depend on that as an introduction to the world of the Jews?

[Pharaoh]

So, as a Muslim, what's your view on gay marriage, I, fuzzbot?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

So, as a Muslim, what's your view on gay marriage, I, fuzzbot?
Gay marriage is against my religion. However, I am not a homophobe, neither are many Muslims, because that mentality would go against the Koran.

There is nothing wrong with two people of the same sex wanting to commit. Religion should not be taken into consideration when enforcing such policies. The Islamic Sharia law is exactly what's wrong with the Middle East, because it's ruining how "outsiders" perceive Islam. How is this religious text any different than the Bible which states that a marriage should only take place between a "man" and a "woman"? It's exactly the same in the Koran.

If it's against the beliefs of their religions, then they should know the consequences of participating in a homosexual relationship. The Koran promotes freedom of decision and independence. No one has the right to disallow people in love from taking their normal, functioning relationship up to another level. It would cause nothing but unhappiness and further chaos if everyone continued calling homosexual relationships "a mockery" and homosexuals "sinners." Personally I think gay people should have the right to get married, because regardless of their sexual preferences, they are still people who should be afforded the same rights as other people whose preferences may be different from theirs.

It doesn't mean that I'd do it, being a Muslim and all. But it also doesn't give me the right to hate or protest against them because it's as bad as racism which is highly discouraged in the Koran.

A homosexual who goes to the mosque is still better than a hetereosexual who doesn't follow the five basic pillars of Islam.

[ScruU2wice]

It's certainly hard to take you seriously, I mean you do realise this trial is in Britain don't you? I don't there'll be 12 middle Americans on the jury somehow.

Oh gosh that completely invalidates everything I said..

[ScruU2wice]

but I'm glad Kulture and Pharoah are here to point out the hate in Muslim culture, without being completely and unquestionably racist themselves...

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

but I'm glad Kulture and Pharoah are here to point out the hate in Muslim culture, without being completely and unquestionably racist themselves...
It gets tiring hearing them argue. Kinda like sticking breadcrumbs on a stained window and watching feathered birds crash into the glass.

[Abcdxxxx]

"Do you know how he gained his popularity at first? He promised modernization. "

Ahmednijad's roll in the hostage crisis wasn't enough indication of his ideals?

"The Islamic Sharia law is exactly what's wrong with the Middle East, because it's ruining how "outsiders" perceive Islam."

When we talk about Shari'a laws we're talking about the negative aspects of it...stonings, etc. There is something inherently wrong about murder and it has nothing to do with how outsiders percieve or possibly even misconstrue it. That was a telling statement you made.


"3) He forgave a Jewish woman called Hind from his tribe who killed his uncle Hamza (who was also one of his biggest supporters.) She also ate his kidney in front of the Prophet as an insult. She later converted to Islam. "

Really not a great story to use as an example of tolerance or how Jews are your cousins.

"they said it's shady that a Jew would translate the Koran and yet you feel like they'd do it without being biased at ALL (ha!)"

What's shady is the assumption that all linguists work from a national or religious bias. The translators personal background shouldn't be a factor. Either it's accurate, or it's not. Since we essentially agree the Koran can not be translated to English without variation , and that many of these translations warrant debate of interpretation, it goes much deeper then that. There are certainly Muslims for which that more extreme translation is accurate. Again, your concern over these translations is really one of perception from outsiders...but the greater concern is the accpetance of these thoughts within your own community. We both know issues like "is it okayto beat your woman" are commonly discussed on Islamic web forums. That it's even still a question, is a source of outrage.


"If it's against the beliefs of their religions, then they should know the consequences of participating in a homosexual relationship. The Koran promotes freedom of decision and independence."

This is a different style of thinking altogether, which to Western minds reads like a contradiction. You say homosexuality has consequences, yet in the next breath, you say the Koran promotes their independence....independence to what... commit acts which will lead to further consequences. So it turns out there isn't such a contradiction in that case after all, and the freedom, and independence does not offer forgiveness of protection for the Islamic homosexual.

[Kulturkampf]

Which verses are they even talking about? I bet you certainly wouldn't even know offhand.

Of course not. I am not a Muslim. I have better things than to read a book that encourages the murder of Jews.

[ScruU2wice]

If I had any doubts you were a character that just erased em...

[Immortal Goat]

Which verses are they even talking about? I bet you certainly wouldn't even know offhand.

Of course not. I am not a Muslim. I have better things than to read a book that encourages the murder of Jews.
So you have better things to do than expand your horizons in the hopes of understanding those you hate a little more? Fine then, carry on with your fag-drags or whatever it is you skinheads do.

[Pharaoh]

So, as a Muslim, what's your view on gay marriage, I, fuzzbot?
Gay marriage is against my religion. However, I am not a homophobe, neither are many Muslims, because that mentality would go against the Koran.

OK, but how would you feel if a Muslim who opposed gay marriage posted his views here in a civilized way and yet was unanimously condemned and called a bigot, moron, asshole etc?
Would it make any difference if he was a Christian? Because it seems to me that liberals, whilst totally opposed to even moderate Christianity, are willing to accept without criticism even quite homophobic Islamic views.
They would like to see the end of Christianity and yet are welcoming Islam with open arms, even though it's less moderate on issues like gay and women's rights.


The Islamic Sharia law is exactly what's wrong with the Middle East, because it's ruining how "outsiders" perceive Islam.
Yes but the problem is, I don't know about the US but a clear majority of UK Muslims want Islamic law introduced into this country.




A homosexual who goes to the mosque is still better than a hetereosexual who doesn't follow the five basic pillars of Islam.

So you're saying any homosexual who goes to the mosque is better than any atheistic hetereosexual? Interesting.

[Kulturkampf]

Pharoah summed it up.

[Chojin]

Pharoah, you haven't proven anything - You said that you have a koran and that it's wrong. If you're going to go through another religion's holy book and look to see whether it squares with your religion's holy book for "veracity", it's clear that you didn't absorb any of it and just got it so that you can use it as a resource for pulling out one-liners to back up why you're justified in hating yet another demographic.

What you have is not the koran, it's a strategy guide to hackneyed political debate. I don't trust your ability to understand the meaning behind anything in the book if you think all of it is 'wrong,' and therefore I do not accept whatever interpretations of its text you might have to offer. So far you've offered nothing, but I wouldn't put it past you to chalk that up to not being challenged on it. But here's your big chance! Could you read aloud from Saad 3:16?

YOUR RELIGION IS WRONG. AND GAY.

[Immortal Goat]

So you're saying any homosexual who goes to the mosque is better than any atheistic hetereosexual? Interesting.
No, what he is saying is that any homosexual who truly follows the NON-HATEFUL, TRUE TEACHINGS OF ISLAM is a better person that a straight person who is a heartless bastard that doesn't believe in anything.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Ahmednijad's roll in the hostage crisis wasn't enough indication of his ideals?
He justified his actions regarding that and they fell for it. People are prepared to overlook little facts like these if he's going to talk about things like "the greater good."
When we talk about Shari'a laws we're talking about the negative aspects of it...stonings, etc.
No, when we're talking aout the Sharia law we are talking about the Muslim countries that have adopted and adapted to this law, and how they have interpreted/skewed it to fit their own personal needs. It's called a 'law' for a reason, it's what you should live by. If the Royals in Saudi don't want you to do a particular thing, they will slap it in that document and call it 'haram,' which means 'the forbidden,' (i.e, it's against Islam, so don't do it.) Even though it's really not, but if you do it this way, no one can question you, because you'd be considered a Kafir (infidel) and they'd have an excuse to lock you up.
it has nothing to do with how outsiders percieve or possibly even misconstrue it.
You see, for example, I think there's a good chance that someone might misunderstand the Sharia law when it comes to stoning, because of the brutal approach and the events that took place in Nigeria and Saudi Arabia, who consider this sort of thing justifiable because it's part of the law. These things receive plenty of media coverage, too, so no doubt would they mislead people into thinking that the Sharia law is a piece of shit crap which is more proof of "the fact" that Islam is gross, sexist, and inconsiderate.

This means that people won't depend on what the Sharia law actually is, they'd depend on what happens in the countries that use it, and like I've already stated before most of it is made up for obvious reasons. It's called having absolute power while trying to brainwash the citizens into thinking that they're being exposed to proper Islam. So they follow it, since many of these people cannot afford a good education, but these people are the kind of people who lack interest in this sort of thing. As long as there's bread on the table and a roof on top of their head, they won't rebel and risk their lives and the lives of their families.

Really not a great story to use as an example of tolerance or how Jews are your cousins.
It fits perfectly - Kulturasdfsdfkampf said we HATE Jews, pretty much, and we don't accept them because of their beliefs. The Hadith I referred to shows how forgiving, accepting, and understanding the Prophet is. That is how Muslims should be, therefore, thinking of Jews as our enemies and not our cousins is incredibly wrong, because that's how the Prophet did it, and we should follow his example.

Why don't you look up the history of Yemen and the presence of Christianity there, amongst Islam? Why don't you look up the history of Jordan and look at the presence of Judaism there, amongst Islam? Why don't you look up the history of Lebannon* and see how the Christians and Muslims were living in the same definite terrority? What does that tell you about Islam and tolerance?

(*The civil war was a political and territorial dispute and not religious. Same thing with Iran and Iraq which people constantly misinterpret. Religion is just easier to blame.)

The translators personal background shouldn't be a factor. Either it's accurate, or it's not.
Yes, but who the hell decides? You don't know if it's accurate or not ESPECIALLY if you do not speak the language, this is why Muslim converts learn Arabic. This is why Arabic is a requirement in a lot of Indonesian schools, and schools in Bosnia, so they can understand the Koran, not just so they can communicate with the Arabs. These people realize that they have to read it for themselves in order to know what's being said.

For example, Kulturasdfsfkamp has been mislead by the books he's relying on. I suggest you read 'No God but God' by Reza Aslan if you want to be blown away by how wrong he is. It gives you a great history of Islam and its relationships with Christianity and Judaism throughout the years. Through this book you may even understand few parts of the conflicts between Israel and Palestine. This book shines the light on Christianity and Judaism as well, it's not "this is this and that is that," it's "this is this which quite possibly lead to that." It's great for discussion, because it also shows you how the problem is WITHIN Islam, and that the West and other religions are merely bystanders. We are against each other because we disagree with each other's personal opinions and theories, we all strive to be the dominant sub-group of Muslims. Like we disagree with the Shiites because we think that the Koran is our final authority. They disagree with us in that the Prophet Mohammed is the most significant prophet since he was the official messenger. They believe more in Hassan and Hussain.

OK, but how would you feel if a Muslim who opposed gay marriage posted his views here in a civilized way and yet was unanimously condemned and called a bigot, moron, asshole etc?

Unless he was being a dick about it, (basically saying that gays shouldn't exist in a polite manner, which I've seen other Muslims do) I'd say it's wrong for those people to have such a reaction. I don't really see what this has to do with anything, though.
Yes but the problem is, I don't know about the US but a clear majority of UK Muslims want Islamic law introduced into this country.

Muslims in the UK are paranoid because of things like the BNP. I don't ever agree with how Muslims react in places like the Netherlands and the UK. I don't call this Islam. For the most part it's just a bunch of fucks trying to rile you up and have a laugh about it, honestly. It saddens me that they're destroying a religion and how it's perceived elsewhere by being immature pricks. Though violence against Muslims does exist in the UK. I've had female friends who were threatened and bullied after the London attacks simply for wearing the veil, I don't think that is right. It's understandable, but nothing justfies that sort of behavior.

I live in Switzerland, the Muslims here don't demand anything. We have a small gathering place in an apartment where we pray together on Friday and Sunday. I've asked if anyone would like to see an actual mosque here one of these days, they said it doesn't matter if you're in a mosque or a bowling alley or a park, as long as you're together praying then God knows you're doing it and although a mosque would be nice, it's not a requirement. You'll still have the same amount of blessings if you pray elsewhere, together. It's the unity that counts. The feeling of brotherhood, that sense of community. And outside Islam this should apply in a larger sense - Allah doesn't reject Christianity in its entirity, so why should we? In the end we believe in the same God and manage to live in a place where threats don't exist, because in most religions, unacceptance and dismssing someone else's beliefs as "bullshit" is not tolerable.

Tell me something, okay?

If we supposedly hate people of other religions, why would there be 6 Churches and 2 Bible schools in a country that follows the Sharia law? Why would Imams salute the Christians whose church is right across the street from a mosque I usually go to? Why does no one say anything when the Church bell goes while the Imam is doing his prayers out loud? Why can't we protect ourselves from the "BAD EVIL" non-believers if they're right there? Oh, that's right, it's against our religion!

You're assuming that it's very Muslim to hate others and not accept them just because they follow a system of different beliefs. That is untrue. It is very un-Islamic for anyone to hate Christians, Jews, homosexuals, just because they think and act differently. It doesn't matter in Islam - we are all one no matter WHICH God we believe in, even athiests do not deserve to be hated or judged. It's their decision. That is what the Koran says. It gives YOU limits, it doesn't give you the right to give anyone else limits. If they don't act a certain way, you advice them, but you don't force them to do anything.

Do you know why that is? It's because God is all about testing your faith. Testing your faith and your patience is a big theme in the Koran. If something happens to you, as a Muslim, and you feel unprotected and away from God, then you've lost, because after losing you didn't hold on to a religion that's raised you into the person you are today. You can wake up to a dead wife and a burned house and if you thought "where the fuck was God when this happened?", you didn't read that closely into the Koran, because God was there. God was there and He saw it coming and is waiting for your reaction to see whether or not you've meant your prayers, whether you've really tried to understand the meaning behind the words of the Koran, those words that brush against your lips like a careless whisper.

God will protect you, but in the Koran he's stated that he CAN and he very well MAY test you in whichever way he finds it fit. It's beyond our control. It's God's will.

You say homosexuality has consequences, yet in the next breath, you say the Koran promotes their independence....independence to what... commit acts which will lead to further consequences
That's not what I meant, let me try again.

The Koran promotes INDEPENDENCE IN GENERAL. Not the independence of homosexuality. It promotes independence because only YOU can decide what's wrong or right upon reading the Koran. If you've read it and disagree, it's no one's loss but yours. If you've read it and you can follow it, more power to you, because God will be on your side during judgement day.

If you reject the Koran it's your personal decision and God won't punish you in this life. You still have a chance to make things right and that's the whole POINT, your faith in Him. The more you question things, the more you understand, the more you understand the closer to God you are. Get it? You think of Koran as a book that strips you away from all of your rights but in fact it gives you the right to do whatever you want as long as you think about the consequences that come with it. Aside from that, there are exceptions, because God is merciful and forgiving. In my example: If a homosexual Muslim went to the mosque everyday and didn't feel bad that he's attracted to men rather than women, and if a heterosexual Muslim beats his wife everyday and forbids her from doing anything she wants, the homosexual Muslim will definitely have more chance of getting into our idea of paradise than the abusing heterosexual Muslim. Good deeds is a must, no matter who does it from whichever religion.

Do you want to know the most valuable lesson I've learned from the Koran? Your personal relationship with God should not be confined to a certain religion or their customs. You should feel equally at home with God anywhere. In a church, in a mosque, or on the street. It's because that ISLAM taught me this lesson, this lesson that I haven't learned when studying other religions, is why I like being Muslim. It makes me want to open doors to other religions. This is how every Muslim should feel if they've been studying the Koran properly. Unfortunately the Koran is taught differently and inaccurately in many places, especially Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Egypt, and Pakistan. It's sad. But notice how many terrorists roam around these areas too.

I think this is pretty much all I have to say about this matter. It's hard spoon-feeding, there's a lot you have to dig through before you get where you are. I'm talking about years of extensive research and not a book or a brochure. It takes more than one book for you to be able to compare and contrast and come up with the differences yourself, this is the only reason why people who don't speak Arabic taught themselves a lot of what they need to know about Islam. Books, reading, a wide variety of authors, perhaps even a visit to a Muslim country.

[Pharaoh]

Pharoah, you haven't proven anything - You said that you have a koran and that it's wrong. If you're going to go through another religion's holy book and look to see whether it squares with your religion's holy book for "veracity", it's clear that you didn't absorb any of it and just got it so that you can use it as a resource for pulling out one-liners to back up why you're justified in hating yet another demographic.

What you have is not the koran, it's a strategy guide to hackneyed political debate. I don't trust your ability to understand the meaning behind anything in the book if you think all of it is 'wrong,' and therefore I do not accept whatever interpretations of its text you might have to offer. So far you've offered nothing, but I wouldn't put it past you to chalk that up to not being challenged on it. But here's your big chance! Could you read aloud from Saad 3:16?

YOUR RELIGION IS WRONG. AND GAY.

I haven't got a religion, you numbskull. I'm an atheist, as I've said before, but I much prefer Christianity and the New Testament to Islam and the Koran. I've got a Koran which I've read and I found it aggressive and intolerant of other religions. That's my opinion of it, and if you read it, all of it, whatever translation, you'll see what I mean.

[Pub Lover]

You're assuming that it's very Muslim to hate others and not accept them just because they follow a system of different beliefs.
I think that's a very Human thing to do, despite our better nature/beliefs.

[ziggytrix]

Atheism is a religion that is both wrong and gay. Chojin wins!

[Chojin]

Thank you for ignoring 95% of that and correcting an irrelevant error instead, Pharoah. The hallmark of a winner, and might I add, this forum.

If you're going to reply without reading, could I at least request that you be funny? It's more or less an unspoken rule around here.

[Pharaoh]

By the way, what do you people mean by 'gay', when used as an insult? I'm curious. How can you claim you're not anti-gay and yet use 'gay' as if it's a something bad? It seems inconsistent to me.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

and if you read it, all of it, whatever translation, you'll see what I mean.
No, he won't see what you mean, and I've already explained why. You've read one translation, don't try to lie and tell me that 'ANY' translation is going to be identical to that one. Maybe the next translation you lay your hands on will make you think twice about the shit you've been spewing.

I've gone out of my way to explain things to you and the likes of you and here you are closing your eyes and ears and yelling over our voices as if yours is the only one worth hearing.

Your ill-informed opinions aren't valid, I decided to post lengthy responses in order to make things clearer for you. It's not working.

This is because you are stupid. Chojin wins!

[Chojin]

I cannot abide by your murder of mirth, you gay kike.

The fact that you would even ask is pretty telling of your ability to grasp anything, ever. It's like you're some adorably naive bigoted robot.

[Chojin]

http://members.cox.net/mokwella/original/data2.jpg

By the way, what do you people mean by 'gay', when used as an insult? I'm curious. How can you claim you're not anti-gay and yet use 'gay' as if it's a something bad? It seems inconsistent to me.

[ziggytrix]

You can't call Data a bigot! His best friend was a blind negroe!

[Pharaoh]

I see now. It's funny to you because you think it's risqué and a little outrageous to use gay as an insult.
You see it's difficult for me to fully understand the politically correct sense of humour.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Your hyper-sensitivity to anything that seems "PC" is boring and cliche.

[Chojin]

I think it's just adorable that you think it's way worse to use gay as a generic insult than to legitimately hate homosexuals.

[Pharaoh]

I think it's just adorable that you think it's way worse to use gay as a generic insult than to legitimately hate homosexuals.
Legitimately hate homosexuals?
What do you mean by that? Lawfully, reasonably? That doesn't make sense to me.
Anyway I don't think it's worse than anything, I'm just interested in it. It's not used in that way over here.

[Chojin]

le·git·i·mate
adj.

1. Being in compliance with the law; lawful: a legitimate business.
2. Being in accordance with established or accepted patterns and standards: legitimate advertising practices.
3. Based on logical reasoning; reasonable: a legitimate solution to the problem.
4. Authentic; genuine: a legitimate complaint.
Are you really such a dundering fuck that you can't be bothered to make the cursory attempt to visit dictionary.com before commenting?

[glowbelly]

psst, i think he meant it along the lines of genuinely.

:eek see i was right!!

[Pharaoh]

That's an incorrect use of the word. Legitimate is from the Latin legitimus, meaning lawful.
Definition 4. 'Authentic; genuine: a legitimate complaint', is using authentic and genuine in the sense of rightful.
To legitimately hate someone would mean you hate them for a good reason. It doesn't mean you genuinely hate them.

[Chojin]

Who are you believe to the going, the American slang speaker of, or the outstandingly gay ****** that you am?

In other words, no.

[Pub Lover]

...[the word gay is] not used in that way over here.
Yes, it is. :/

[ziggytrix]

You'd have to be some kind of retard to think its politically correct to use "gay" as slang for "stupid or unlikeable."

[Pharaoh]

Yes, OK, I admit I was wrong. How silly of me! I mean if you say outrageous stuff like 'gay n*gger' that really proves you're not all politically correct lefties, you can't possibly be.

[Abcdxxxx]

I understand that Shari'a is meant to be nothing more then laws to live by. No different then commandments.... but clearly, outsiders aren't speaking of the daily rules for prayer, or kosher laws when they discuss Shari'a. The problem is these Shari'as are not only powered by these corrupt Governments, but the Muslim clerics in the region. To claim there is a seperation between the Mosque and State dissmisses reality. You're saying these Shari'as are a politicized con with no basis in the Koran, but that's absolutely not what the leading clerics in these nations are telling your people. It makes religious leaders appear to incite these crimes. If the Koran is filled with ambigious prose, it becomes you word against theres...and sadly THEY are the ones putting taking action, not Muslims like you. I suggest you debate the verses with every suicide bomber who qoutes the Koran extensively, and holds a copy in his/her hands, as they prepare to mass murder "infidels". It would serve us all better then telling US all this. Our understanding is less of a threat to you then THEIR understanding. All I see from the Islamic community is PR work on these issues, fighting the public opinion from outsiders... and that is not a solution to the crisis within modern Islam, you admit to.

Regarding Jews, and Muslim tolerance of Jews - a story about a vindictive Jewish female, who later converts to Islam might show mercy in your Islamic eyes, but as a Jew, it says the complete opposite. Frankly, it's offensive on several levels. That's no pro-Judaism, by any stretch of the imagination. I don't want your mercy, I want to be left alone. What other kind of death could be involved in having your soul cut off from your people ? It's also concerning that Mohhamed is your moral compass when his own actions were morally questionable.

I'm also a bit troubled by your choices of other examples of Islamic harmony:
Christians in Yemen? Yet the persecution of Yemenite Jews was some of the worst.
Jordan? Cleansed the majority of it's Jews. There was no Jewish community in Transjordan when it became a State in 1946. Even today, under peace treaty, Orthodox Jews can not enter Jordan.
Lebanon ? The civil war lasted decades, and religion played a major roll in it. Lebanon remains under Muslim occupation.

Look, the region was under Ottoman administrative control for centuries. Whether there was tolerance towards Jews since the advent of Islam's domination of the region all depended on the period of time and local rulers. There were periods of forced conversion, ethnic cleansing and heavy discrimination in addition to periods of relative tolerance. Since the Arabs gained independence, Jews are not the only ones to suffer discrimination and dispossession. Saddam Hussein's war against the Kurds was one of ethnic cleansing. The Copts have been persecuted in Egypt, the Persians persecuted the Bahais...etc... these are the well known examples. Not even being a Muslim will save you in the Sudan if you're African

You just picked very poor examples. I'm sorry, but you can brag that there are 6 churches, or 1 Synagogue left from Persian Iran... but that's not tolerance. That's not proof of healthy thriving brotherhood, or acceptance. Why would you pretend it is, when you know better? You have some really solid information to offer us, why cheapen your integrity this way?

Translations : We're in agreement that the Koran should be read in Arabic. We have both made this point clearly, I think. We both agree that the Koran is being taught differently, (or inaccurately) from your understanding of it, in the majoriy of the Arab world.

When it comes to attempting to provide a translation for the Non-Muslim public, you should not assume that a Jew or Christian who has a scholarly understanding of Arabic, and Islam couldn't provide the same accuracy. Your fear of bias against Islam, is about as healthy as our fear of Islams bias when sanitizing the Koran...or bias in assuming a Jew can't be... honest! I think it's wrong to say the only accurate translation can come from someone who worships allah..though I'd agree they havethe advantage. The Koran doesn't tell you to hate us, but it tells you that we are wrong, that we are not proper. It's no different then a Christian "praying for your soul". That's not tolerance, love or acceptance. Now I don't mind someone praying for me...that's sweet....what I do mind, is active outreach.

Homosexuality: Again, Indepedence is not acceptance or protection. You say God won't punish you in this life, but isn't Islam all about preparing for the next life? You're double talking. What are the ultimate consequences for a Queer Muslim?

[ziggytrix]

Yes, OK, I admit I was wrong. How silly of me! I mean if you say outrageous stuff like 'gay n*gger' that really proves you're not all politically correct lefties, you can't possibly be.

Well, it wouldn't be logically consistent. Though it does not rule out the possibility "we're all politically incorrect leftists" or that "some of us are politically correct leftists". However, I would not expect anyone as muleheaded or ignorant as you to unsarcastically admit the difference once you've made up your mind, you useless right wing pigeon. ;)

[ScruU2wice]

Yeah pharaoh don't give us that shit and tell us, it's just not being PC; it's racism and you're a racist. I couldn't care less about your "leftist" and "rightwing" vocabulary that you use to label everything. You're a racist. and I'm sure there's meetings that can help you cope with stuff like that but that's not my problem.

[ziggytrix]

I remember the good ole days when I got called a "racist de facto bigot" instead of a "hyper PC Leftist"

That's exactly what you're doing, as if any of these kids know what Moonshine is. The root is natural human tendency to stereotype and attack people who are different, plain and simple. That type of ignorance is embraced here, and you'd have to be quite foolish to say otherwise. Even among a better crowd, it would still exist but people who so blatantly celebrate it certainly accept it. And it's that same weak minded ignorance that leads to things like Nazism, the Clan, the rape camps at Bosnia, the genocides in Africa, slavery, 9/11, etc. Sure, none of you are nearly important or powerful enough or in the right situation to cause any of that BUT, under the right circumstances you WOULD be shouting "Zieg Heil" because you are weak and ignorant. The nazi's weren't all evil bastards, they were normal people just like you. Normal, ignorant sheep who are easily led to hate, just like all of you would be. And I think it's pathetic. You think you're better, but it's very obvious you aren't. Even you Ziggy won't even speak out against use of words you find offensive on a message board, cause god forbid you speak against the Kapn bashing for just one second. Woe to any person of color who you weren't friends with who would need you in real life in a similar situation. Like I said, you'd probably sit idly by, afraid to go against the group. Pathetic, I don't see how you even sleep at night.

[Jeanette X]

Which verses are they even talking about? I bet you certainly wouldn't even know offhand.

Of course not. I am not a Muslim. I have better things than to read a book that encourages the murder of Jews.

So you insist that the religion is evil and anti-Semetic based on the Koran and you don't even bother PRESENTING THE VERSES TO PROVE YOUR ARGUEMENT and you expect us to be convinced that Islam is inherently anti-Semetic?

Apparently someone told you the Koran was anti-Semetic, and you took it as gospel without bothering to so much as read an encyclopedia entry about it. Can't you think for yourself?

[Abcdxxxx]

Jeanette, how are you any your opinions any better or any more informed?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

a story about a vindictive Jewish female, who later converts to Islam might show mercy in your Islamic eyes, but as a Jew, it says the complete opposite. Frankly, it's offensive on several levels. That's no pro-Judaism, by any stretch of the imagination. I don't want your mercy, I want to be left alone. What other kind of death could be involved in having your soul cut off from your people ? It's also concerning that Mohhamed is your moral compass when his own actions were morally questionable.
That was a long story summed up. I still consider it a strong example. Hind was accepted and respected despite the fact that she was a Jew. I said that EVEN IF she was that vindictive, she was forgiven, so what the fuck does that say about how forgiving and accepting prophet Mohammed is?

I'm also a bit troubled by your choices of other examples of Islamic harmony:
Christians in Yemen? Yet the persecution of Yemenite Jews was some of the worst.
Jordan? Cleansed the majority of it's Jews. There was no Jewish community in Transjordan when it became a State in 1946. Even today, under peace treaty, Orthodox Jews can not enter Jordan.
Lebanon ?
Okay wow, you're kind of really far back in history.
Again, Indepedence is not acceptance or protection. You say God won't punish you in this life, but isn't Islam all about preparing for the next life? You're double talking.
Did I say it is?

Indenpence, acceptance, tolerance and protection are all different things yet are related. It's your personal choice if you want to tolerate others and accept them as they are. You choose, as an independent individual, whether you want to be hateful and intolerant or accepting and tolerant. YOU choose, no one else does it for you. The Koran wants that. For you to make your own choices regarding what was right and wrong. It tells you what's right and what's wrong, but YOU need to give yourself the limits.

You answered your own question in that second line. God won't punish you in this life BECAUSE he is preparing you for the next life. The next life is where you will be punished, then. This life is all about chance, faith, forgiveness, knowledge. This life is where you build yourself for the next life. This is how God will determine where you go next, through your actions here.

You independently chose to be a homosexual. Fine. It's againt the Koran, but like I said, it's not 'A' and 'B' with Islam. There are certain exceptions.

I'm not double talking, you're just hearing things the way you want to hear them. I'm sorry, but you don't seem as educated as you should be on this matter, I can suggest a few books for you to read because I don't even know where to start to be honest. We can talk about this for days on end.

Christianity and Judaism had a great influential presence in the Arabian peninsula, man. Arab tribes were around Christians all the time: Abyssinians Mesopotamian Christians, Syrians.

To say "they were all kicked out/mistreated!" is just too simplistic and stupid. LOOK FURTHER BACK.

Don't Wikipedia these and expect yourself to know enough. Don't depend on the internet for these things, I want you to get out there and actually look these up before engaging in such a debate.

In the 6th century C.E Yemen was the seat of Christian aspirations. The city of Najran was considered the hub of Arab Christianity. Ever heard about the massive church in Sana'? It was a primary pilgrimage site in the region, like Mecca. Ever heard about the Ghossanids and the Byzantines and their preaching of two very differnet Christianities? Ever heard of what the pagan Arabs thought about Judaism (that it's just another way of expressing similar religious sentiments)?

Furthermore, Arab Jews, Arab Christians, Arab whatever exist, and aren't bothered. That's fucking tolerance for you. We don't consider ourself 'one' because we're all Muslim, which we're obviously not. We consider ourselves 'one' because our religion tells us that we should, it's how prophet Mohammed did it and his and God's words are the words we live by. So why go against that?

You have a lot to learn about the origins of Islam, it seems.

I suggest you debate the verses with every suicide bomber who qoutes the Koran extensively, and holds a copy in his/her hands, as they prepare to mass murder "infidels". It would serve us all better then telling US all this
Most people who do it are kids. Kids are easily brainwashed. Make a kid feel powerful and passionate about something and I dare you to bend him back to the average kid he used to be. It won't work. When you give a kid the power to make certain things possible, you can't take it back.

Do you think it's easy having a religious debate with a kid who saw his mother get raped and killed? Do you think it's easy to just walk up to a kid and tell him that what he's doing is WRONG and we should accept the fact that his Jewish Israeli cousins are killing and torturing his siblings in front of his own eyes because it's what the prophet would have done? That you should forgive?

Those kids are traumatized. What they're doing is wrong, but they're fucking miserable and see this as their own way of aiding the situation. Of course it would be better for all of us to stop hearing about them blowing shit up, but the Israelis are doing things that are thrice as bad as this, wiping out thrice as much of the population. Just compare the death tolls in each country and see for yourself.

You think it's just easy for things to HAPPEN. For things to be talked about. I wouldn't talk about these things in Saudi if I wanted to stay alive. If I were in the strict village areas and I talk to an Imam about this, you think he'll want to "debate?" I'll be lynched. Threatened. Beaten. But that's not Islam. It's a sick way of life. It's a struggle for power. Don't confuse anything like that with Islam, no matter how easy it makes things seem. I've gone through enough shit before I was old enough to distinguish what was Islam and what wasn't. I bet you won't go anything half as bad, this is why I doubt you'll fully understand.

Jeanette, how are you any your opinions any better or any more informed?
Because she's open and willing to learn, even if she doesn't agree. I've talked to her on AIM before and she seemed quite informed to me.

[Pharaoh]

Yeah pharaoh don't give us that shit and tell us, it's just not being PC; it's racism and you're a racist. I couldn't care less about your "leftist" and "rightwing" vocabulary that you use to label everything. You're a racist. and I'm sure there's meetings that can help you cope with stuff like that but that's not my problem.

Lol. Even though I haven't said a single thing about race yet, you can't wait to call me a racist. It's the PC leftie's worst insult, and biggest fear of being accused of themselves. Well it may surprise you to learn that Islam is not a race and neither is homosexuality, so what are you basing your accusation on?

[Pharaoh]

Most people who do it are kids. Kids are easily brainwashed. Make a kid feel powerful and passionate about something and I dare you to bend him back to the average kid he used to be. It won't work. When you give a kid the power to make certain things possible, you can't take it back.

Do you think it's easy having a religious debate with a kid who saw his mother get raped and killed? Do you think it's easy to just walk up to a kid and tell him that what he's doing is WRONG and we should accept the fact that his Jewish Israeli cousins are killing and torturing his siblings in front of his own eyes because it's what the prophet would have done? That you should forgive?

Those kids are traumatized. What they're doing is wrong, but they're fucking miserable and see this as their own way of aiding the situation. Of course it would be better for all of us to stop hearing about them blowing shit up, but the Israelis are doing things that are thrice as bad as this, wiping out thrice as much of the population. Just compare the death tolls in each country and see for yourself.


What do you call a kid? Most of them are twenty something. The same age as the Nazis were. Were Nazis just kids too? And their parents certainly aren't kids, and they encourage their sons to blow up Jews. The imans aren't kids either, and they preach violence and praise the suicide bombers, referring to them as martyrs.

The 9/11 terrorists weren't traumatized kids, and neither were the 7/7 London bombers. One of them, Shehzad Tanweer, aged 22, who detonated a bomb on the Underground at Aldgate station, killing eight people, had an estate valued at £121,000 net of taxes and debts.

Link here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01/07/nterr07.xml&sSheet=/portal/2006/01/07/ixportal.html)

I wish I had that much money when I was a kid.

[Pharaoh]

Which verses are they even talking about? I bet you certainly wouldn't even know offhand.

Of course not. I am not a Muslim. I have better things than to read a book that encourages the murder of Jews.

So you insist that the religion is evil and anti-Semetic based on the Koran and you don't even bother PRESENTING THE VERSES TO PROVE YOUR ARGUEMENT and you expect us to be convinced that Islam is inherently anti-Semetic?

Apparently someone told you the Koran was anti-Semetic, and you took it as gospel without bothering to so much as read an encyclopedia entry about it. Can't you think for yourself?

He's already shown what the verse was, it was in the Times link that he posted. If you'd bothered to read it you would have seen it too.


'Abu Hamza’s remarks, which the prosecution alleges amount to an attempt to stir up racial hatred against the Jewish people, were, Mr Fitzgerald said, a reference to the Hadith — sayings of the Prophet Muhammad — in which fighting between Jews and Muslims is predicted.

The Hadith says that the trees will call out to the Muslims “there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him�.'

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

What do you call a kid? Most of them are twenty something. The same age as the Nazis were. Were Nazis just kids too? And their parents certainly aren't kids, and they encourage their sons to blow up Jews. The imans aren't kids either, and they preach violence and praise the suicide bombers, referring to them as martyrs.

The 9/11 terrorists weren't traumatized kids, and neither were the 7/7 London bombers. One of them, Shehzad Tanweer, aged 22, who detonated a bomb on the Underground at Aldgate station, killing eight people, had an estate valued at £121,000 net of taxes and debts.

Link here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01/07/nterr07.xml&sSheet=/portal/2006/01/07/ixportal.html)

I wish I had that much money when I was a kid.

WRONG.

Most of them are 13.

I live in an Arab fucking country. I'm exposed to these videos EVERYDAY, don't you fuckign come here and tell me my facts are wrong.

Most of them are KIDS. 13 year olds are kids.

Mr Fitzgerald doesn't know what he's talking about either. Obviously the guy got his facts elsewhere if he doesn't speak the Arabic language, he probably had a biased opinion to begin with, so he finds his research from others who are also biased.

Shut the fuck up.

[Pharaoh]

What do you call a kid? Most of them are twenty something. The same age as the Nazis were. Were Nazis just kids too? And their parents certainly aren't kids, and they encourage their sons to blow up Jews. The imans aren't kids either, and they preach violence and praise the suicide bombers, referring to them as martyrs.

The 9/11 terrorists weren't traumatized kids, and neither were the 7/7 London bombers. One of them, Shehzad Tanweer, aged 22, who detonated a bomb on the Underground at Aldgate station, killing eight people, had an estate valued at £121,000 net of taxes and debts.

Link here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01/07/nterr07.xml&sSheet=/portal/2006/01/07/ixportal.html)

I wish I had that much money when I was a kid.

WRONG.

Most of them are 13.

I live in an Arab fucking country. I'm exposed to these videos EVERYDAY, don't you fuckign come here and tell me my facts are wrong.

Most of them are KIDS. 13 year olds are kids.

Mr Fitzgerald doesn't know what he's talking about either. Obviously the guy got his facts elsewhere if he doesn't speak the Arabic language, he probably had a biased opinion to begin with, so he finds his research from others who are also biased.

Shut the fuck up.

Where's your proof, bigmouth?
Here's mine:

Here are the main statistics on the 100 Palestinian suicide bombers:

Of the 100 suicide bombers, 75 were killed while perpetrating 67 different missions. (In several attacks, like the one at Beit Lid in 1995, several suicide bombers participated in the same mission.) The other 25 bombers were either intercepted by security forces before carrying out their attack or were captured after their explosives failed to detonate. Seven of the 30 suicide bombers sent on missions during the past year were arrested.
66 belonged to Hamas, 34 were members of Islamic Jihad
67 were between the ages of 17 to 23 and most of the others were also under the age of 30.
54 came from Gaza, 45 from the West Bank and one was an Israeli Arab. (The Israeli Arab, who carried out the attack in Nahariya last month, was also an exception in his advanced age - 53.)
23 had elementary education; 31 were high school graduates and 46 had higher education
86 were bachelors and 14 were married
Despite the steep rise in the number of attacks during the past year, the profile of the suicide bombers has largely remained the same, with the average age of 21.
Link here (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=80841)

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

My proof is living IN THE REGION. My proof is SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE. My proof is FAMILY members who've been there, who do this sort of thing for a living (journalism, war and news photography, etc.)

Your proof is being an ocean away typing up stupid shit carelessly on Google and actually relying on the info given.

It takes one click to edit information on the internet. Have you ever heard of a BOOK? Have you ever heard of learning a LANGUAGE that isn't your own in order to understand a group of people you like to label.

Why do you think I'm learning classical Hebrew? I do this to understand MYSELF, and where I'm coming from. I do this to understand the others I critisize, because there's nothing more shameful and embarrassing in this world than being an ignorant arrogant piece of shit know-it-all like you. Listen to what others have to say you fucking dropout. Talk to the ones who've gone through this instead of basing your so-called "facts" on articles on the Internet and a single translation of a book you're NOWHERE CLOSE TO UNDERSTANDING.

You didn't attack my other posts because you don't have an argument. I don't give a shit about your excuses, you fucking dimwit. Get educated before you get on people's asses.

[Abcdxxxx]

"Furthermore, Arab Jews, Arab Christians, Arab whatever exist, and aren't bothered."

Yeah, I know they exist because I am one. Apparently you know nothing of Jews from Arabic countries. You've told me to learn history, yet you run your own mouth in ignorance. Maybe you SHOULD try Wikiepedia at the very least. They were expelled, massacred, stripped of their rights, and their cultures. Do you call that tolerance? Or do you just refuse to recognize facts?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iraqijews.html
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/yemenjews.html
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/lebjews.html
http://www.iflac.com/jac/
http://www.farhud.org/farhud.html
http://www.zchor.org/libya/libya.htm
http://www.orthohelp.com/geneal/holocaust.HTM
http://www.du.edu/~sward/HoloSephardic.htm

Do you want to source your information and back up your claims that Jordan is a hotbed of Islamo-Judaic harmony? What's the current Jewish population of Jordan?

"If I were in the strict village areas and I talk to an Imam about this, you think he'll want to "debate?" I'll be lynched. Threatened. Beaten. But that's not Islam. It's a sick way of life. "

I'm willing to argue on your behalf and say fine, the Koran is being misinterpreted, but there is absolutely no excuse for the lack of acountability. You can recommend I read all the propaganda you want, and it won't change that. Your knee jerk reaction was to rationalize and explain away the violence.... violence which is religiously motivated by the Imams you're scared of.

Tell me the murder of Abu Afak wasn't anti-semitic, or anti-Jewish.
Tell me that the massacre of the entire male population of Banu Qurayz Jews, and the enslavement of women and children wasn't anti-Jewish. Our little moderate Muslim thinks the later story, and the so called redemption of a "heathen" Jew giving in to CONVERSION is a positive story. Of course he was taught these are great merciful stories. What a fraud. I call bullshit.

[Abcdxxxx]

Required reading for Fuzzbot.

Muslims rise against terror by Nonie Darwish
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20933

The silent majority is the problem by Nonie Darwish
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16554

Here is a free book on the subject, for you in Arabic.
http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/arabic.html
Or Persian.
http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/persian.html

[Pharaoh]

My proof is living IN THE REGION. My proof is SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE. My proof is FAMILY members who've been there, who do this sort of thing for a living (journalism, war and news photography, etc.)

Your proof is being an ocean away typing up stupid shit carelessly on Google and actually relying on the info given.

It takes one click to edit information on the internet. Have you ever heard of a BOOK? Have you ever heard of learning a LANGUAGE that isn't your own in order to understand a group of people you like to label.

Why do you think I'm learning classical Hebrew? I do this to understand MYSELF, and where I'm coming from. I do this to understand the others I critisize, because there's nothing more shameful and embarrassing in this world than being an ignorant arrogant piece of shit know-it-all like you. Listen to what others have to say you fucking dropout. Talk to the ones who've gone through this instead of basing your so-called "facts" on articles on the Internet and a single translation of a book you're NOWHERE CLOSE TO UNDERSTANDING.

You didn't attack my other posts because you don't have an argument. I don't give a shit about your excuses, you fucking dimwit. Get educated before you get on people's asses.

What a pathetic response. And I thought you said you live in Switzerland, make your mind up, bigmouth.
I provided a link to my proof, how can I possibly edit that?

You seem to think that because you're a Muslim, that you cannot be proved wrong on any issues concerning Muslims. Well you just have been, loser.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Yeah, I know they exist because I am one. Apparently you know nothing of Jews from Arabic countries. You've told me to learn history, yet you run your own mouth in ignorance. Maybe you SHOULD try Wikiepedia at the very least. They were expelled, massacred, stripped of their rights, and their cultures. Do you call that tolerance? Or do you just refuse to recognize facts?
You DO know fuck-all about history. Look at the date I was fucking referring to: The Jahiliyyah.

During the four Rightly Guided Caliphs, the Kharijites tortured and murdered innocent Muslims all the time. They even killed the Prophet's son in law. Of course Muslims were/can be brutal. People of ANY religion can be brutal. Who killed Muslims and Jews of Jerusalem in 1099? Soldiers of the Cross. Does that mean that violence is a Christian trait? No.

When killing children in Beslan, does that mean violence is a Jewish trait? No.

When we look at terrorism, does that mean that violence is a Muslim trait? No.

It's not a trait within religion. It's violence in the NAME of religion.
Of course he was taught these are great merciful stories. What a fraud. I call bullshit.
The Bedouin of pre-Islamic Arabia enjoyed a rich and diverse religious tradition, you fuck. After Islam was discovered they remained that way for a while. I'm not denying the awful shit we did. That's why I spoke about the Imams: I've woken up to this reality. Judaism in this region developed its own variations on tradiational beleifs and practices. The Jews shared many of the same religious ideals as their pagan Arab counterparts. Haven't you ever heard about the Kohens? Don't you see their resemblence to the pagan Kahins?

The Arabs are known for the fact that they were greatly influenced by Jewish beliefs and practices. The roots of the Ka'ba itself goes back to Jewish traditions.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

What a pathetic response. And I thought you said you live in Switzerland, make your mind up, bigmouth.

I live in Switzerland, this is not where I come from, you ignorant child. I've lived in Bahrain for 18 years of my life. I've only been here for the past few months.
You seem to think that because you're a Muslim, that you cannot be proved wrong on any issues concerning Muslims. Well you just have been, loser.
If anyone has been proven wrong in this cock-up thread it's you. Give your money back to the college you wasted your time in, they obviously didn't do their job.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Required reading for our darling ABSFSDFxxxxdrsdfs:

Unholy War : Terror in the Name of Islam (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195168860/sr=1-2/qid=1138101429/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-3484063-2880024?%5Fencoding=UTF8)

The Venture of Islam, Volume 1 : The Classical Age of Islam (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226346838/ref=pd_sim_b_3/002-3484063-2880024?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155)

Islam : A Short History (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/081296618X/ref=pd_sim_b_4/002-3484063-2880024?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155)

[Pharaoh]

Required reading for infidels:

The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (And the Crusades) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895260131/qid=1138103222/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-5782102-5415337?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Required reading for infidels:

The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (And the Crusades) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895260131/qid=1138103222/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-5782102-5415337?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)

Yeah I figured you'd post that, I saw someone discussing it on Teletubbies.com. You should really go there, it's more your educational level.

[Abcdxxxx]

Why are you bringing up Jordan at all if you're talking about the Jahiliyyah, eh?

While we're at it, isn't it ironic that you would write off a Jews interpretation of the Koran, when the Koran itself liberally borrows from Jewish and Christian scriptures in the first place? There were Jews who turned on Mohhamed because his interpretations of the Bible were laughable to them. Maybe that's why it's STILL insensitive to talk about conversion as redemption, you ridiculous little shit. Oh, and I know, Jews killed the Cannanites, and that's why in 2006 you're scared to raise your voice to your own community. Spare us the apologetics. In one breath you admit to issues within POPULARIZED Islam...and in the next you blame Israel, or you blame it on the distorted view of outsiders....Which is it?

[Abcdxxxx]

I live in an Arab fucking country. I'm exposed to these videos EVERYDAY, don't you fuckign come here and tell me my facts are wrong.

I wouldn't brag about that. With the proliferation of disinformatin spread in the Arab world, and the lack of a truly free press. Are you really arguing that residents of Arab League nations are really working off some factual purity? Because if that's the case, can I have a pint of your blood...I'm craving cookies.

The average age of a suicide bomber is 20-21.
www.eisenhowerseries.com/pdfs/final_05/pedahzur_ppt.pdf

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Why are you bringing up Jordan
When I talked about Jordan I was talking about Al Banna's Islamization project.
While we're at it, isn't it ironic that you would write off a Jews interpretation of the Koran, when the Koran itself liberally borrows from Jewish and Christian scriptures in the first place?
I don't think it's ironic at all, of course the Jew would be in favour of making us look more like scum. It happens all the time, because we do that when we write books about Judaism as well. It's normal. It's obvious. Get over it you bloated pile of bullshit.
Spare us the apologetics. In one breath you admit to issues within POPULARIZED Islam...and in the next you blame Israel, or you blame it on the distorted view of outsiders....Which is it?
I said that BECAUSE of certain flaws that receive a LOT of media coverage outsiders would have a distorted view of Islam.

Where did I blame Israel, you illiterate skunk?
With the proliferation of disinformatin spread in the Arab world, and the lack of a truly free press.
Jordan and Morocco are volatile kingdoms whose young monarchs have made timid steps toward democratization. So did Bahrain. Our media is almost as free, though it's normal for us to fear it.

Royals are being bashed in magazines. Islam is being questioned.

That's pretty fucking free to me, you stupid dick.

[Abcdxxxx]

Look kid, we agree on a great deal. I'm happy to discuss these issues with someone from the other side of the conflict...but cut the schizo act and don't come at me like that.

THEN: "Of course it would be better for all of us to stop hearing about them blowing shit up, but the Israelis are doing things that are thrice as bad as this, wiping out thrice as much of the population."

NOW: "Where did I blame Israel, you illiterate skunk? "


Still this gem is my favorite...all roads lead back to this hypocrisy:

"God won't punish you in this life BECAUSE he is preparing you for the next life. The next life is where you will be punished, then."

Really cut the fucking double talk already, you snake. I'll pretend you didn't just portray Bahrain as "making timid steps towards democratization", when a minute ago you were using the excuse of being killed for voicing certain thoughts... you started out strong, with some decent posts here...and now you just sound like clown who lost his red nose.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

"Of course it would be better for all of us to stop hearing about them blowing shit up, but the Israelis are doing things that are thrice as bad as this, wiping out thrice as much of the population."
I was NOT blaming Israel for anything, I already said that suicide bombing is wrong. I'm saying that they see bombing themselves as a last resort to the Israelis who DO have the weapons required to destory them. Suicide bombing boggles the mind. I'm sure you know that suicide in general is forbidden in the Koran. No one chooses when you die but God. Suicide bombing, therefore, should not be associated with the Koran, no matter what these kids say before their death. Islam will never justify such a thing.
Really cut the fucking double talk already, you snake.
Stop acting like you're cross-eyed. You're misunderstanding a lot of what I'm saying.
I'll pretend you didn't just portray Bahrain as "making timid steps towards democratization", when a minute ago you were using the excuse of being killed for voicing certain thoughts
Did you even read that post carefully? I said that we are moving towards a DEMOCRATIC MONARCHY WHERE WE CAN VOTE, BASH THE GOVERNMENT AS MUCH AS WE WANT, AND USE THE INTERNET FOR OUR PERSONAL NEEDS.

There, in caps, so you won't miss it again.

Bahrain changed so much (TOO much, even, that it's hard for us to adapt - this is why I said we STILL fear using the media to voice our opinions), within the last few years. Why do you think Rice was here a few weeks ago? She encouraged us to be more democratic. The King took this seriously. This is why our constituion now gives us the right for 'freedom of speech,' this didn't exist before the King came into power. In the late 90's, things were still bad (when we were still a State, under the Sheikh.) Right after we became a Kingdom, we went through some massive political and societial changes. We did get in trouble before, but now people can easily get out of it because the law is on our side. You just have to be smart about it - Political parties publish newsletters that bash the Royals all the time, indirectly. I just don't recommend that you do something like wish death upon the Royals in a very public newspaper.

It's still scary because the absolute power is there, but people DO take risks, so our media IS more free. A lot get away with it. Some don't. I'm not willing to put my life in danger just so I can get my thoughts out there, doesn't mean you can't voice your opinion.

you started out strong, with some decent posts here...and now you just sound like clown who lost his red nose.
I think the problem here is you misunderstanding and assuming a lot of the stuff I'm saying. You put a lot of words in my mouth. I'm being as specific as I can, so spare me the hostility.
but cut the schizo act and don't come at me like that.

I asked you to look back at history and you called me an ignorant fool who doesn't know what he's talking about, who's being misinformed because "oh he lives in an Arab country of course they're going to teach him utter crap." We were both referring to completely different time periods. I admit that I misunderstood you and vice versa, that doesn't give you the right to call me ignorant about what I'm talking about. I spent a good deal of my time reading up on this stuff, talking to experts and those who interpret this stuff so I can expose myself to their point of views and compare it with mine.

I've done my best here to show you where I'm coming from. It's normal that I'm going to get pissed off, you're critisizing my religion and backing it up with skewed material. If you don't agree with me, that's fine, but after what I've said you can't just tell me that I'm bullshitting. You assumed that I'm making Muslims seem like fairies who want the world to live in the land of candy and rainbows, I already said that a lot of Muslims out there are destroying our religion over shit that isn't even part of it. The subjet of this thread (and some of its responses) is about how the Koran promotes violence, racism, sexism and as a Muslim I have every right to defend my faith and inform you that those misconceptions are wrong. I didn't say that you have to believe me merely because I'm a Muslim, I didn't say you HAVE to believe me at all, I just used the fact that I'm a Muslim to show you that I DO have experience in this field. And yes, as silly as that sounds it does matter. I would never call myself educated enough to critisize another religion mainly because I never lived amongst them, despite the fact that I've been to Bible school. That just doesn't do it for me, in order to understand those who follow it I must surround myself with them. Before you slap them under certain catagories and say that what they're doing is justified through their religious texts, I suggest you do the same.

[Abcdxxxx]

Oh, your other personality came back to play! Goodie. Of course, everything I say will be skewed to you, because I'm a non-Muslim...which is odd since you were inviting discussion, and the possibility that you would have to admit you're wrong earlier. Sorry to rain on your lecture series. If it makes you feel better, I've taken the "How Persian are you?" quiz online, and scored better then my friends who actually are Persian.

Anyway, I told you to question the Shaheeds use of Koranic scriptures, and you blamed Israel instead. There was no misunderstanding there, just a difference of opinion.

Meanwhile - is change really why fear voicing your opinions in Bahrain, or does Tehran's Court 1410 really have something to do with why you fear using your newfound "freedoms". Be honest.
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11978
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=13306
Press freedom shrank daily during 2004 in Iran, one the world’s 10 countries most repressive of the media. Countless threats hang over journalists and they are beaten when thrown in jail. The country has for years been the Middle East’s biggest prison for journalists.

We're talking about generations indoctrinated with hate propaganda, so how many years of a sort of kind of almost free press, but not really does it take to un-do that damage? Look how mislead Americans can be even WITH freedom of expression. Bragging that you live in Iran, and therefor are aware, and superior in knowledge when it comes to topics such as Islamic relations towards outsiders...wellll come on now. The majority of your outsiders got tossed out a long time ago, while here in America, major cities are full of Muslims. You can't leave your door in Israel without coming into contact with Muslims, either. So I agree with you when you talk about you surrounding yourself with people of other cultures, to help better understand them.... but you've been out of Iran for what, three months now?

Honest question, and I'm not baiting you .... but did you know any Jews in Iran?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Oh, your other personality came back to play!

Well aren't you just funny. Yeah. This is just hysterical comedy gold!

Of course, everything I say will be skewed to you, because I'm a non-Muslim
PLENTY of non-Muslims know loads about Islam, you're just not one of them. Sorry.
Press freedom shrank daily during 2004 in Iran, one the world’s 10 countries most repressive of the media. Countless threats hang over journalists and they are beaten when thrown in jail. The country has for years been the Middle East’s biggest prison for journalists.

You were talking about the Arab world. Iran is part of the Middle East, NOT the Arab world. Get your facts right before you dismantle my post.
Bragging that you live in Iran, and therefor are aware, and superior in knowledge when it comes to topics such as Islamic relations towards outsiders...wellll come on now.
Dude, what the fuck are you talking about? Bahrain is NOT Iran! Bahrain is in the PERSIAN Gulf, it is NOT part of IRAN! COMPLETELY different place!

My mother is an Iranian immigrant. There are many Iranians in Bahrain who fled at the time, so we used to have a lot of Iranians in Bahrain, but not anymore. They were either deported since they came here illegally, or they left for other countries, but most went back to Iran.

Wow, I really don't know what else to say. I can't believe you even attempted to argue with me if you don't even know what laws applied to what I was talking about. DUH you'd think I was ignorant if you didn't even know where the hell I'm from! I'd think you were ignorant too if you were talking about Mexico and I assumed that it's part of America.
Honest question, and I'm not baiting you .... but did you know any Jews in Iran?
How the fuck would I come across any Jews in Iran if I've never even been to Iran?!

Bahrain is a Kingdom! Not a city!

[ScruU2wice]

Lol. Even though I haven't said a single thing about race yet, you can't wait to call me a racist. It's the PC leftie's worst insult, and biggest fear of being accused of themselves. Well it may surprise you to learn that Islam is not a race and neither is homosexuality, so what are you basing your accusation on?

Every single one of your comments were directed toward the Pakistani population of Britian which is largely muslim (If you deny it you're full of shit I know there is a strong anti-pakistani influence in britain, just like there was a strong anti-black influecne here up untill the 60's.)

You constantly bring up that fact that Islam is a hatefilled religion and support it using every single farfetched case involving a muslim.

You made a comment that "islam was on trial here". You said that muslims don't really do anything but beat there wives.

You try to neutralize every logical response by saying that I'm a crazy PC liberal, but refuse to look at anything but your point of view with out the utmost hostility.

Replace every time you said Muslim with ****** and you becom Strom Therman.

[ziggytrix]

Of course, everything I say will be skewed to you, because I'm a non-Muslim...


That and the fact that you are constantly arguing on this forum that Islam is inherently wicked. One doesn't come much more biased than that. :/

[Pharaoh]

ScruU2wice, why do you think Pakistanis don't integrate well here and yet Indians do? One reason, Islam.

We don't have Indians blowing themselves up in London, killing dozens, and badly injuring many more.
I don't care what country they come from, if they're Muslim they cause problems here.

And I said Islam was on trial here because, due to Abu Hanza's defence claiming hate speech was only from the Koran, it is. What's your problem with that?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

ScruU2wice, why do you think Pakistanis don't integrate well here and yet Indians do? One reason, Islam.

We don't have Indians blowing themselves up in London, killing dozens, and badly injuring many more.
I don't care what country they come from, if they're Muslim they cause problems here.

And I said Islam was on trial here because, due to Abu Hanza's defence claiming hate speech was only from the Koran, it is. What's your problem with that?
The problem is not Islam. There are a lot of Brits who've converted to Islam, but they don't cause problems for a reason: Their religion doesn't allow it, nor does it justfity it.

Islam is probably the 2nd biggest religion in India, meaning there are a lot of Muslim Indians, even amongst those in the UK. They don't cause problems JUST because they're Muslims. You can't assume they're not Muslim JUST because they don't cause problems. Look up the Muslim population in the UK, and give me the percentage of those who actually do cause problems. You'll be shocked.

How would you know an Indian from a Pakistani? If he's actually Indian, and he caused problems, you'd call him a Pakistani just because most Pakistanis are Muslims? That's what your post is implying.

Your mentality is not just stupid, it's absurd.

Grow up.

[Pub Lover]

...directed toward the Pakistani population of Britian which is largely muslim (If you deny it you're full of shit I know there is a strong anti-pakistani influence in britain...
The first thread I remember making in Philo/Poli way back on EZboard was about the inconsistancy of Pakistanis being from Pakistan, while it's Afghans from Afghanistan, Uzbeks from Uzbekistan, etc. I ended the post with a promise of posting more rants against Muslims, but I left the country, & apprantly lost interest.

Edit: I don't remember being that (http://p222.ezboard.com/fimockeryphilosophysociologypoliticsetc.showMessag e?topicID=982.topic) much of a jackass. :lol

[kahljorn]

Link posted by abc:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20933

Sounds like what I was saying about how improved diplomacy/culturization in the area could cause ill-will against the terrorists. See, it is possible.

[ScruU2wice]

you don't really have to tell me that pakistanis can be backward thinking. They aren't big fans of the Jews or Americans, but not all Muslims are pakistanis, and not all Pakistanis are radicalists. Don't forget the irony of you preaching hate against Islam about Islam preaching hate.

My problem with you saying that Islam is on trial is because Islam is a blanket defence in a trial where someone is desperate to stay of jail. you should realize that many people will say anything to get off the hook for a crime and not really mean it at all.

[mburbank]

Last I checked, all major world religious texts had some very nice tolerant stuff and some really nasty violent stuff in them.

Last I checked, every major world religion had done some very nice stuff like helping poor people and sick people and some very ugly stuff like killing all sorts of people.

Last I checked no world religous text was always interpretted by it's followers as inherently violent to outsiders or inherently tolerant of outsiders.

Last I checked, various groups of practitioners of each of the worlds religions had serious disagreements about what their religous texts meant.

The Pope during the Inquisition certainly managed to find much scriptural support for burning tons of people to death.

Many American Christians today find justification for thinking homosexuality sinful in Leviticus, while ignoring that Leviticus also intructs you to disasemble your house if their is mildew. Many American Christians believe that Jesus's new covenant meant God no longer cared if they kept Kosher as the old testament intructs, but feel that Jesus's new covenenat DID NOT mean to stop thinking homosexuality was a sin.

That's the thing about these major religous texts. They're complicated. People devote entire liftetimes to their study. Don't be so quick to dismiss the Koran or Islam. You want to make a case against extremist fundamentalists? Good. Me too. But if you think only Islam has them, you'd be wrong, and if you think this moment in history tells you something about Islam that it hasn't already told you about every other religion... well, you're just a little bit stupid, aren't you?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

The Pope during the Inquisition certainly managed to find much scriptural support for burning tons of people to death.

Right, but modern Catholics don't do this (presumably).

The Church, and Christianity in general, has all gone through its dark and primitive phases. And while glimmers of that still exist today, they don't compare to the actions conducted in the name of Islam.

I think what folks like ABC are looking for is an acknowledgement that it isn't just misinterpretation, but rather, something systemically wrong that goes beyond bad translations.

You Max just provided a great example with leviticus. It isn't really about interpretation at all, is it? I think it has more to do with modernity. Christians may believe all sorts of things from the Bible, but it's really their compulsion to act on those things and accept those things that distinguishes them from good and bad, right?

A lot of American Christians would probably feel pretty comfortable in some kind of a theocracy. But the majority, even a lot of Christians, accept that there needs to be a separation of Church and state so that all can be free to practice.

It seems like a lot of Muslim nations haven't quite reached the latter two points as of yet, which would seem to make all of the textual comparisons sort of moot, imo.

[mburbank]

"The Church, and Christianity in general, has all gone through its dark and primitive phases. "

Wow. Thank God for that. If not for the fact that all religous practice progresses steadily toward tolerance and away from atrocity, I might get scared. It's GONE through it? You're certain about that? I mean, I'm not predicting a return to auto dafe I think you're being pretty cocky. Everybody always thinks the way things are in their time is hwere everything has always been headed and that history can just stop changing now.

AND if it was correct to determine that a religion had something inherently evil in it, would you agree that Christianity should have thrown out with the bathwater during the Inquisition?

ABC may be correct that there is something sytemically wrong, but I would say the system os organized religion on a world scale. AND I don't even really think that. But there's barbarism a plenty in most of your religous texts, and even when there isn't much, there are always swaths of people ready to read it in.

"Christians may believe all sorts of things from the Bible, but it's really their compulsion to act on those things and accept those things that distinguishes them from good and bad, right? "

I homestly don't know what you mean, here.

I don't know how strong a majority feels a need for a separeation between church and state, as long as it's the true real actual church they belong to as opposed to some violent heathen farce. Right now all three branches of government are controlled by a party headed by a man who does not seem to think the church/state divide is all that important and at very least is due for some serious ventilation.

"It seems like a lot of Muslim nations haven't quite reached the latter two points as of yet, which would seem to make all of the textual comparisons sort of moot, imo."

I think that has just as much to do with colonialism, economics and battles won and lost as it does with religion. If you turned the world around, made Islam the historically more powerful and Christianity a third world religion, do you honestly believe that Christianity would be way more civil just do to it's inherent goodness?

I think violent fundamentalists are a very bad thing. On the other hand, I think superpowers completely sure of their moral superiority also present certain dangers and can be pretty scary. Osama on his worst day would be ahrd pressed to end life on earth. We can do it whenever we please. I'm pretty sure we won't, but it's got to be scary on the other end of that kind of power, espcially when we reserve the right to bomb anyone back to the stoneage.

I think violent fundamentalism is a problem all it's own, a poisonous, contageous mental sickness that grafts itself to religion. I think historically there is evidence that strong religous belief makes people vulnerable to fundamentalism. But religion isn't all it likes. It likes nationalism too, and even patriotism.

I think believing that it's their religion that makes fundamentalists evil, that the religion itself is poison, especially in the absence of a really in depth understanding, is the first step into becoming fundamentalists ourselves. A large portion of americans are able to stomach colateral death in Iraq (30,000 says the President like he's talking about fishsticks instead of people) because we know they are not human the way we are. After all, they want us dead, they will stop at nothing, and if we don't have a really clear idea of who they are, well, we know they're all Muslims. Why not just call them Orcs and have done with it?

[kahljorn]

Did you know some of the ideas from the holocaust actually came from the crusades? Like making them wear yellow stars-- if I remember right that was based on the yellow hats issued by the pope. They also came from early Christian times, pretty much dating back to whenever people got angry that the jews crucified jesus.

[Pharaoh]

Islam is probably the 2nd biggest religion in India, meaning there are a lot of Muslim Indians, even amongst those in the UK. They don't cause problems JUST because they're Muslims. You can't assume they're not Muslim JUST because they don't cause problems. Look up the Muslim population in the UK, and give me the percentage of those who actually do cause problems. You'll be shocked.

How would you know an Indian from a Pakistani? If he's actually Indian, and he caused problems, you'd call him a Pakistani just because most Pakistanis are Muslims? That's what your post is implying.

Your mentality is not just stupid, it's absurd.

Grow up.

We just don't have the same problems with the Hindu community here.

I'm talking about mass murder and the two groups of Muslim suicide bombers in London, one group fortunately failed, the other didn't.
And the large percentage of Muslims here who support them.
Link here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/23/npoll23.xml)

Muslims demand that their children be taught separately at school, that girl pupils cover their heads and limbs, that the schools serve halal meat, and that Arabic and the Koran be taught.

They made death threats against Salmon Rushdie because he'd dared to criticise Islam. The British Muslim community agreed with Ayatollah Khomeini that he should be hunted down and killed. Not one Muslim spokesman defended him.

In Bradford, a book-burning rally was led by Kalim Siddiqui who later set up a separate Muslim Parliament of Britain, which makes laws for the Muslims here.

Their young men go to fight against British troops. They're not only a separate community but they'e working against Britain.

Is that acceptable?

[kahljorn]

"Is that acceptable?"

No, they should be arrested if they are going against troops.

"Muslims demand that their children be taught separately at school"

Then I guess they could open a private school or something, but I think what they could teach would fall under government jurisdiction. I can understand the fear of education...

"that girl pupils cover their heads and limbs"

Magic choice power

"that the schools serve halal meat"

Maybe on wednesdays they could have halal and on thursdays BURRITOS.

"Not one Muslim spokesman defended him. "

Do they have spokesman in the government..? If so maybe they could declare it treasonous or something and kick them out of office ;/ I don't really know how things work in britain, though. So excuse me if my understandings of the law over there are incorrect.

I don't think it's right that people should immigrate to another country not to be citizens there. Then you start opening the doors to legislation against allowing them in public offices or voting, though. I think moving into any country for a reason other than wanting to join them is ridiculous; maybe in need of tougher immigration laws? From what I understand their countries don't allow people from our country to move there to be a missionary, why should we allow the same?

[mburbank]

Absolutely.

No I'm kidding, or course it isn't. But I'm not sure I see what you're driving at. I think anyone who engages in criminal acts should be punished, regardless of their religion. You seem to be looking for something else.

What exactly? Laws against the religion itself as opposed to laws aginst actions? Or some sort of blanket allowance to assume someone is a criminal if they're Islamic? Put it oit on the table, what do you want?

Oh and by the way, I think you're wrong about the Fatwah against Rushdie. It was appauling, but I'm pretty sure there were Britsh Muslims who came out publicly against it.

[Pharaoh]

I want the left to stop pandering to all their demands and making excuses for their backwards beliefs and behaviour. They should accept our laws and support Britain and integrate fully or get out.

[kahljorn]

Agreed; moving into another country for any reason other than integration is wrong, even within their country. Not that that matters, though. Since we want to go over there and change them too.

[mburbank]

Who are 'they'? Do you mean radical fundamentalist Muslims or all Muslims? Do you see any difference?

What do you mean by 'integrate'? Do you mean abandon dress codes and speak English? I suppose I can see wanting this, but are you suggesting legally demanding it? On what basis? Doesn't England have laws against crime already? As for what 'Leftists' do, are you against freedom of speech? Because I know that while England has less of this than America (but we're catching up!) I always thought Freedom of speech was something you were proud of. If it's not their right to speech that bothers you, I would suggest it's your listening that's the problem.

If I lived in England, I think I'd find Football hooliganism pretty offensive and fairly dangerous. But I don't think I'd call for people to stop supporting football. I also think most of you drink far too much and it's a well known fact all of you have horrible teeth from a nearly inhuman diet that uses blood as a cooking ingredient! I've also heard that so many of you are gay that without artficial insemination and immigration, you'd be almost empty by now. You think you're all hugh and mighty because your period of killing of vast swaths of people all over the world in the name of commerce ended after WWII? You C of E limey bastards are all the same, every one of you. The only reason we let you stay in the American World is your tendency to do exactly as our president tells you.

[kahljorn]

"What do you mean by 'integrate'? "

I'm guessing he means intergrating with our culture, not necessarily abandoning their beliefs but at least adopting some of our cultures values. I mean, at the very least they should be moving to these countries for a reason. Why would you move somewhere and try to change it to the old place? If they don't have any desire to actually be a citizen of a country, why be there?
However, I do not know how often that even happens. It seems like some kind of paranoia, in all honesty.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

We just don't have the same problems with the Hindu community here.

I'm talking about mass murder and the two groups of Muslim suicide bombers in London, one group fortunately failed, the other didn't.
And the large percentage of Muslims here who support them.
Link here

Muslims demand that their children be taught separately at school, that girl pupils cover their heads and limbs, that the schools serve halal meat, and that Arabic and the Koran be taught.

They made death threats against Salmon Rushdie because he'd dared to criticise Islam. The British Muslim community agreed with Ayatollah Khomeini that he should be hunted down and killed. Not one Muslim spokesman defended him.

In Bradford, a book-burning rally was led by Kalim Siddiqui who later set up a separate Muslim Parliament of Britain, which makes laws for the Muslims here.

Their young men go to fight against British troops. They're not only a separate community but they'e working against Britain.

Is that acceptable?
Don't give me this bullshit. Everyone I know in Britain was appalled due to the attacks. No one would ever support the killing of innocents, especially in a place like Britain, unless you've been seriously brainwashed and fucked up. These Muslims WERE brainwashed and therefore fucked up. They've been fine Muslims all their lives until they joined the independent group that did this to them. Read up on the attackers' biographies. Hear what their family had to say. It helps putting bits and pieces together.

Did you know that Muslim people died in the attacks, too? Not all of them were, as the BNP would call them, part of the "White Nation." There's suffering on our side as well thanks to these rediculous mingers.

They made death threats against Salmon Rushdie because he'd dared to criticise Islam.
Small amount of people did that, it doesn't give you the right to assume that we all have that mentality. Salman (and not Salmon, he's not a fish) is one of my favorite authors of all time.

Muslims demand that their children be taught separately at school, that girl pupils cover their heads and limbs, that the schools serve halal meat, and that Arabic and the Koran be taught.
You're still talking about a very small majority. If ALL Muslims in Britain did that, believe me, Britain would be at war.

Christians in Bahrain demanded that the bible be taught at school. I don't think that's taking over anything, we didn't look at them as infidels who wanted to change us. We didn't ask them "be a Muslim or GET OUT," no, we created a school where the bible can be taught. We included the Bible in our history lessons. Not all Muslim countries are intolerant.

PS:

"The number of Muslims in Britain is generally put at around 1.5 million, though some community groups suggest it could be nearer two million." - Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1997/religion/33539.stm)

That's a lot of Muslims. The country would be in ruins if all of them fit your defintion of a Muslim.

[Abcdxxxx]

Yeah Fuzzbot, at 5am I'm supposed to follow if you're in Switzerland, in an Arab country, from Iran, or what the fuck the story is at the moment. I'm sure by the end of the day you'll say you were living in Qatar instead.

My point is still valid.
http://www.rsf.org/country-43.php3?id_mot=151&Valider=OK
http://www.apfw.org/indexenglish.asp?

Bahrain has laws against freedom of the Press. Like Law 47 "A new press and publishing law, issued by royal decree in Bahrain yesterday, has abolished a controversial jail punishment for journalists convicted of transgressions except those who call for overthrowing the regime, defaming Islam or criticising the king, the official news agency, BNA, reported."
http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/02/11/04/67541.html
fname=news%5Cenglish%5C12390.htm

BBC did an index of policial freedoms in the Middle East, and Bahrain ranked just above Iran. Now I'm no fan of the BBC, and I can't imagine how Yemen, or Sudan could outrank Bahrain... but
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4450582.stm

Oh and Fuzzbot... you'd have had a better chance of meeting a Jew in Iran then Bahrain..... there are a whopping 35 Jews left, from 4 families, and not a single permanent Synagogue. Your perception of things is about as learned from a text book as anybody elses in this forum. If anything, some of us here are at an advantage, not having been indoctrinated with hate through the notorious Arab media. Watch any good mini-series on the Protocols of Zion lately?


Ziggy, you've made the exact same argument, even on harsher terms then I have. So sit down. Consdering my people are a target of popularized Islam, I think my views are pretty fucking free to be you and me. Wasn't I just taking some the same arguments that Fuzzbot is making, and defending Islam a minute ago?

[Pharaoh]

"What do you mean by 'integrate'? "

I'm guessing he means intergrating with our culture, not necessarily abandoning their beliefs but at least adopting some of our cultures values. I mean, at the very least they should be moving to these countries for a reason. Why would you move somewhere and try to change it to the old place? If they don't have any desire to actually be a citizen of a country, why be there?


Correct, that is what I mean. And I am talking about the 25% of Muslims, as shown in the poll I posted, who are completely against Britain and the West. It's a minority but a very substantial minority of half a million Muslims, and that's a problem.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Yeah Fuzzbot, at 5am I'm supposed to follow if you're in Switzerland, in an Arab country, from Iran, or what the fuck the story is at the moment. I'm sure by the end of the day you'll say you were living in Qatar instead.
I am from Bahrain. Like I said (if you read) in my first post, I've only been in Switzerland for the past couple of months for college. That means I'm living in Switzerland now. I refer to Bahrain as 'here' because, again (if you read) I've been living there all my life, so I'm used to calling it that. It's also easier than saying "in Bahrain" 10,000 times, I'd assume you'd know where I was refering to. Obviously, I was wrong! Especially since you didn't even know where it was!

I never said I was in Iran.

You thought Bahrain was in Iran. Don't even try to get out of this one, man. You thought Iran was an 'Arab' country. It's far from being one.

I can't continue arguing with you if you call me ignorant then make such comments. It just makes me laugh too hard. I can no logner take your comments seriously mainly because you lack knowledge not only in this field, but in basic geography.

Sorry!

Bahrain has laws against freedom of the Press.
:lol

You're far behind.

Article 23 of the Bahrain Constitution: Freedom of opinion and scientific research is guaranteed. Everyone has the right to express his opinion and publish it by word of mouth, in writing or otherwise under the rules and conditions laid down by law, provided that the fundamental beliefs of Islamic doctrine are not infringed, the unity of the people is not prejudiced, and discord or sectarianism is not aroused.

Article 24 of the Bahrain Constitution: With due regard for the provisions of the preceding Article, the freedom of the press, printing and publishing is guaranteed under the rules and conditions laid down by law.

Article 26 of the Bahrain Constitution: The freedom of postal, telegraphic and electronic communication is safeguarded and its confidentiality is guaranteed. Communications shall not be censored or their confidentiality breached except in exigencies specified by law and in accordance with procedures and under guarantees prescribed by law.

My point is still valid.
Nope.

Oh and Fuzzbot... you'd have had a better chance of meeting a Jew in Iran then Bahrain.....
Three of the richest families in Bahrain are Jewish. The most successful family is the one that owns at least two major banks. Their surname is 'Luloo.'

They're tiny families. I do not feel like they require a Synagogue, they're hardly even religious.

and not a single permanent Synagogue
Consider the country's size: 710 sq km. If we went around building temples and churches for everyone we'd quickly run out of space. This is a Muslim country, whether you like it or not. I won't expect mosques if I go to countries with a heavy Jewish population.

Jews didn't ask for one. If they did what the Christians did and asked, we would've made one for them. Would you really recommend that? I sure as hell wouldn't. Just like a mosque would be attacked in a place where Muslims aren't accepted (which happens all the time, shock and awe), a Synagogue won't be left alone either. There's always that dickwad who'd want to ruin the rest of our security (and reputation) and do something stupid like attack it.

None of the churches in Bahrain have been attacked so far. They're all very much visibile, too. Also: There's more Hindus in Bahrain than Jews.

And they have their own praying areas too.

I still can't get over the fact that you know so little about this place. I keep saying 'Bahrain,' I've said it so much that you can't mistake it for Iran unless you thought it WAS in Iran, which you thought it is! Ha! Your entire post is proof of that.

Don't try to act as if you're just confused (though, I admit, it does make you look cute.) Not my fault if you know fuck-all about where countries in this region are, you even had to look it up before you came up with 'Qatar.' :lol

If anything, some of us here are at an advantage, not having been indoctrinated with hate through the notorious Arab media.
Hardly an advantage. There's propganda on both sides. Just like we portray the West as 'evil' sometimes, you portray us as 'evil' as well. This goes back to my comment about distorted views thanks to the skewed material that you're exposed to regarding Islam. Mass media exists for a reason: To communicate a message. That message is not a fact. Get off your ass and look it up before you call it so. Our media is laughable, we all got over that. A lot of us (mind you, not most) are looking for a better education elsewhere for a reason. However, your media is not all that great too. CNN is known for mistranslating speeches made in Arab countries, that happens for a reason: to convince you of something that isn't really there.

It goes both ways. I'm not saying our media is better, I'm just saying that yours is just as bad.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Oh and,

http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/02/11/04/67541.html

Look up Ghada Jamsheer. She critisized the Royals throughout a book which went against certain parts of the Sharia Law, which she proved through religious texts that it's (what they tried to pass of as the Sharia law) is not actually part of the law and therefore it isn't part of Islam to begin with. She also writes daily columns critisizing things like the Family Law in Bahrain. She's one of our best journalists.

You wanna know what happened to her?

She got away with it. An entire fucking book. Not a column. Not a blog entry. Not an article. A book which hasn't been banned thanks to our new set of laws. There's been three cases against her in court and she won all three because they couldn't do anything to her after passing such laws.

Published: 11/04/2002

Way to be up to date, too. Like I keep saying (and like you keep scrolling past so you can jump to 'post reply' and astound me with your utter ignorance) we've gone through massive political changes recently.

At least now I know why that was so hard for you to believe, though. Since you thought we were, you know... Iran.

[Abcdxxxx]

I love that you just tried to argue that Law 47 hasn't put bloggers, and journalists at risk THIS YEAR. Despite the revisions, the old law is STILL in a effect. YOU KNOW THAT. Stop bullshitting.

I love that everything you say is double talk. Freedom of press in one breath, then "hey we all know out press is ridiculous" in the next. You were the one who originally called Bahrain the 3rd most dangerous place to blog from. You're actually bragging about a woman who criticized Shari'a law and got away with it. Gasp!

I love that you just argued a Jews bank account is proof of freedom, and equality. Regardless, my point was that you had little exposure to Jews growing up. Which makes you a fucking hypocrite if we apply your own standards back to you.

I love that you can't find any connection between "extremist" popular Muslim thinking of the sort which any humanitarian would deem negative and the verses in the actual Koran itself. It's all a PR game to you. You can read a Hadith which tells you Muhammed took a 6 (or 9 year old) girl but you see no connection between that and the acceptance of Mut'ah laws. In that particular case, is the perversion in the text, or in the practice?

So I guess you jumped into these threads without reading all the posts first. I said multiple times that Iranians are not Arab, and explained the differece. I did actually think you were in Iran, because you were talking about your Mom or who the fuck knows, and claimed to know Farsi. I was under the impression youwere an Iranian that moved to Bahrain. Frankly, it doesn't mean anything where you are. That's all anecdotal, unless you're willing to take accountability for what goes on in devout Islamic communities.... and apparently , you're not.

[Abcdxxxx]

"Violations of media freedom also persist in Bahrain. Journalists, newspapers and internet-based forum moderators and bloggers faced mounting restrictions both from the authorities and from various sectors of the society itself.

Such violations during the past six months have included the detention and arrest of journalists and bloggers. This included, amongst others, the arrest of Ali Abdul Imam, moderator of Bahrain Online (http://www.bahrainonline.org), its webmasters Mohammed Al-Musavi, and Hussein Yousef, who have been arrested several times during the past six months. International concern mounted when they staged a hunger-strike in March 2005, demanding better prison conditions in Manama's notorious Al Hoora police station and reclassification as prisoners of conscience rather than ordinary prisoners.

This was followed by a decree from the Ministry of Information instructing Bahraini website and blog moderators to register their sites with the Ministry and assume responsibility for materials published on them within a period of three months. This was deemed "a violation of freedom of opinion and restriction of freedom of expression" according to Bahraini activists. Khawaja claimed this was a way to censor internet-based forums and discussions even if run by Bahrain nationals from abroad.

This follows the passing of Press Law 47 [2002], which provided the framework for the arrest of dozens of journalists and editors-in-chief, which triggered a culture of self-censorship amongst Bahraini newspapers and magazines. In interviews with EOHR, journalists also expressed anger at what they called "direct orders" they and their editors-in-chief allegedly receive from the Ministry of Information in the form of written letters and phone calls guiding them on what to publish and what to censor.

Bahrain's Press Law 47 amended previous laws -- adding more restrictions on freedom of expression including prohibiting "defamation of the person of the king", which has been used, according to activists in Bahrain, to censor all forms of criticism addressing the king and the royal family. The law also introduced harsher penalties on press crimes."
http://www.ifex.org/en/content/view/full/68786/

and a blogger in Bahrain who confirms this...

http://mahmood.tv/index.php/blog/1661

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I love that you just tried to argue that Law 47 hasn't put bloggers, and journalists at risk THIS YEAR. Despite the revisions, the old law is STILL in a effect. YOU KNOW THAT. Stop bullshitting.
Not anymore, I've already used the Jamsheer example as to why. I said I'm still scared, I said it's possible, but it doesn't really happen.

I love that everything you say is double talk.
Cross-eyed.

Freedom of press in one breath, then "hey we all know out press is ridiculous" in the next. You were the one who originally called Bahrain the 3rd most dangerous place to blog from.
Yeah it was considering what happened to certain bloggers. After those laws were passed things changed. It's still scary to blog because I've had friends "disappear" because of it, so I personally wouldn't do it.

However, people do it everyday.

So I guess you jumped into these threads without reading all the posts first.
I did read the posts, it's the reason why I responded with something quite lengthy.

because you were talking about your Mom or who the fuck knows, and claimed to know Farsi. I was under the impression youwere an Iranian that moved to Bahrain. Frankly, it doesn't mean anything where you are.
Knowing Farsi as a Bahraini is common. It's like an American knowing Spanish. I do speak Farsi because like I said ("I love that" you keep skipping these parts and then using it against me without actually understanding it) my mother is an Iranian immigrant.

And no, that's still not a good enough excuse. I made it VERY clear where I come from. You either have serious reading comprehension problems or you're a really bad liar who can never admit to his ignorance.

You called me ignorant yet you didn't even know where my country is, WHY it's more likely for me to find a Jew in Iran (look at the population, dimwit. We're only 750,000. Damn right I'd most likely find a Jew in a country whose population is 70.7 million!) and why we don't have Synagogues.

Frankly, it doesn't mean anything where you are.
It means everything. The whole point of me coming into this thread to begin with is to speak through experience. Before critisizing how Jews and Christians are treated in the Persian Gulf, at least know the history behind the place. If you did, you'd know what I meant by the Iranians migrating elsewhere.

Nice try. Here's what you said (apparently, you forgot. aww):

Meanwhile - is change really why fear voicing your opinions in Bahrain, or does Tehran's Court 1410 really have something to do with why you fear using your newfound "freedoms". Be honest.
Oops.
After you said this:
I wouldn't brag about that. With the proliferation of disinformatin spread in the Arab world, and the lack of a truly free press.
You used this to back it up, therefore claiming that Iran is part of the Arab world:
Press freedom shrank daily during 2004 in Iran, one the world’s 10 countries most repressive of the media. Countless threats hang over journalists and they are beaten when thrown in jail. The country has for years been the Middle East’s biggest prison for journalists.

Caught out again.

Try harder.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

"Violations of media freedom also persist in Bahrain. Journalists, newspapers and internet-based forum moderators and bloggers faced mounting restrictions both from the authorities and from various sectors of the society itself.

Such violations during the past six months have included the detention and arrest of journalists and bloggers. This included, amongst others, the arrest of Ali Abdul Imam, moderator of Bahrain Online (http://www.bahrainonline.org), its webmasters Mohammed Al-Musavi, and Hussein Yousef, who have been arrested several times during the past six months. International concern mounted when they staged a hunger-strike in March 2005, demanding better prison conditions in Manama's notorious Al Hoora police station and reclassification as prisoners of conscience rather than ordinary prisoners.

This was followed by a decree from the Ministry of Information instructing Bahraini website and blog moderators to register their sites with the Ministry and assume responsibility for materials published on them within a period of three months. This was deemed "a violation of freedom of opinion and restriction of freedom of expression" according to Bahraini activists. Khawaja claimed this was a way to censor internet-based forums and discussions even if run by Bahrain nationals from abroad.

This follows the passing of Press Law 47 [2002], which provided the framework for the arrest of dozens of journalists and editors-in-chief, which triggered a culture of self-censorship amongst Bahraini newspapers and magazines. In interviews with EOHR, journalists also expressed anger at what they called "direct orders" they and their editors-in-chief allegedly receive from the Ministry of Information in the form of written letters and phone calls guiding them on what to publish and what to censor.

Bahrain's Press Law 47 amended previous laws -- adding more restrictions on freedom of expression including prohibiting "defamation of the person of the king", which has been used, according to activists in Bahrain, to censor all forms of criticism addressing the king and the royal family. The law also introduced harsher penalties on press crimes."
http://www.ifex.org/en/content/view/full/68786/

and a blogger in Bahrain who confirms this...

http://mahmood.tv/index.php/blog/1661

You really seem to be confused with what's going on.

This is what's written on top of the blog, if you're too blind to see for yourself:

Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which the Bahraini Government has COMMITTED to sign says: Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

The law is on OUR side. The government, however, is NOT. That means democracy is slowly being introduced, since the government is not always going to agree with its citizens. It's finally learning how to take responsibility for their actions. It's finally realizing that America is in total favour of us being a more democratic monarchy, to the point where such laws would be introduced.

That is the whole POINT of me using Ghada Jamsheer's example, can't you fucking think for a second? She had 3 cases against her by government officials and yet she managed to win. If this law didn't apply Mahmood would've been jailed already, and so would Ghada. Yet because of the extent of freedom of the press in Bahrain (NOT Iran, in case you forgot again) they're both roaming around freely and without trouble.

That is to say, the government no longer does this. Did I ever deny this? Look back at my posts and tell me where I denied that this ever happened. Look back at my posts to where I said that I'm saddened by the friends I have lost due to the actions taken by the govenrment. Look back at my posts and tell me that I made this place seem like the land of milk and honey. Look back at my posts and tell me that I deny and refuse to admit the fact that a lot of Muslims are guilty of shitty, shitty things (which shouldn't be associated with Islam in general.)

It has been many months since this has happened. This law was enforced during the summer when Condi Rice paid us a visit (and then another visit in November,) to ensure that this doesn't happen. Jamsheer's book was published in June, right when she felt that it was safe enough to. The government was expecting it, but after signing such documents and making deals with America they do not want to be critisized for things like "absolute power" or eliminating rights the citizens need.

Will this happen again? Yes. Do you know of ANY country that doesn't break any law? That does things that don't go against their constitutions? No government is perfect which is why the "ideal" form of government doesn't exist anywhere yet, and we only know this because chaos exists everywhere.

Thanks for confirming my fucking point, and proving yourself to be an idiot again. "I love the" way you're trying to convince me that I'm wrong when I'm the one who mentioned this whole blogging experience to begin with.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

And this:

This was followed by a decree from the Ministry of Information instructing Bahraini website and blog moderators to register their sites with the Ministry and assume responsibility for materials published on them within a period of three months. This was deemed "a violation of freedom of opinion and restriction of freedom of expression" according to Bahraini activists. Khawaja claimed this was a way to censor internet-based forums and discussions even if run by Bahrain nationals from abroad.

Was already rejected.

If you've read my post earlier, you would've known.

It was rejected due to a petition started by the very blogger you spoke of.

....

Look, man. I appreciate your interest in this matter, but I don't think a quick google search is gonna do it whenver we have to argue about this. Let's just agree to disagree. You claimed that there's no freedom whatsoever in the Media, I told you why you're wrong with exampls (in fact you did the work yourself and found a good example that you were trying to use against me. The fact tha the blogger was critisizng the matter without being caught or even threatened at all should speak volumes.

I agree with you with what you said earlier, that we actually agree on most things. I apologize for being hostile, I just don't like it when someone who clearly doesn't know enough tries to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about. If you're gonna Google anything then please find information on Jamsheer and how she shook the country, you can't comprehend anything regarding the media laws in Bahrain if you're not familiar with this particular case. It goes against what Mahmood was worried about and proved to us that it IS okay to voice your opinion, and from now on the law won't try to dance its way around you until it steals your rights and leaves you with nothing. They're changing because we won't accept them wanting to turn us into mindless automatons like Saudi who'll exile or punish anyone who has an opinion.

Also, most Muslims are not Arabs or are from the Middle East. This place should be the last place to set an example on Islam.

I can see this going in circles and circles but I think we both heard what we both had to say about this. I appreciate your posts, I accept that we both think the other is misinformed. On religion, I understand, but on the laws of a country I come from (which you aren't familiar with ... at all) you can't just Google things up and expect yourself to have a strong enough argument. A lot of Bahrainis have been to Ghada's trials, I heard what's been said regarding freedom of expression and how she won and how the government couldn't ever think up a better comeback to that. It's because we're changing. And with that change comes a better, more democratic future. I hope that we can set an example to this region the way Israel proudly does (and rightly so, most Arabs critisize them because they want someone to blame. If most of us had been smarter we would've competed instead of just blaming them for all the problems in the world. Sadly this is not the case. I'm not calling Arabs stupid and clueless people who can't think for themselves, because this is untrue. I'm calling our governments stupid for taking THIS long to take serious actions towards something more democratic. I'm calling our governments stupid for not giving us the opportunity to excel. For not believing. For not wanting us to grow as civilizations because they're too scared that we're rise up against them. They like power - we have no power to change that. It sucks to be us because of THIS, not because we're Muslim. Not because we're mislead and blind. The only reason why the government HAS to change is because we DO know too much, that it's too hard for them to hide. They're being called out on it whenever we get the chance, they can't imprison that many people. If we shut up and "accept" things, which is what they do in Saudi, we'd be as far as they are behind.

Most Arabs have been fucked over. They're not stupid, or are ignorant of their own oppression. The ones in Saudi have very strong feelings that they will never get to express. If that place stays the way it is, it's going to be as backwards as Mauritania is within a short time span.

This has nothing to do with Islam, however. It has a lot to do with how the Middle East have changed throughout the years as it's been raped by tyrants and cunts. The terrorists in Saudi who commit crimes within Saudi get away ALL the time which should say how corrupt the place is.

[Abcdxxxx]

Uh. Right. Like I said, I defined the Pan-Arabist movement as a farce, and was very clear in saying Iranians are not Arabs, before you even posted on this topic. Yet people do speak of Iran as being IN the Arab world...including Iranians leaders. Sorry charlie. Meanwhile, I slipped in the early AM hours while responding, and made an error. I said as much. If that's all you got to cling to, then you're a lost cause.

As for freedom of speech ? The blog article you originally referenced http://nbrb.blogspot.com/2005/08/inclusion-of-bahrain-curt-hopkins.html was from this past AUGUST, after Rice visited, and after Jamsheers book was published. The problems continue. Weren't you trying to mark 2002 as the date when things changed? Are you intentionally trying to be misleading? Now you're arguing these freedoms have been in effect for "months" ??? Get the fuck outta here, you have no credebility no matter where you live. If the goverment isn't "on your side" then stop arguing!! Stop bragging about Jamsheer's freedoms when she faced the threat of three trials for critisizing family court judges!!!!! http://www.defendingwomen-defendingrights.org/bahrain_ghada_jamsheer.php. You've gotten so sidetracked with proving how wrong you think *I* am, that you've just become a ball of contradiction.

Now don't get distracted....
Let's talk about what Jamsheer say's about the Koran, an Mut'ah laws.... she say's the Koran authorizes Muta'h marriage....
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgiPage=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP106005

You've been arguing that there is no basis in the Koran for the elements of Islam considered "extremist". Back it up bigshot.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Go back to the post above you, I edited.

The problems continue. Weren't you trying to mark 2002 as the date when things changed? Are you intentionally trying to be misleading? Now you're arguing these freedoms have been in effect for "months" ??? Get the fuck outta here, you have no credebility no matter where you live. If the goverment isn't "on your side" then stop arguing!! Stop bragging about Jamsheer's freedoms when she faced the threat of three trials for critisizing family court judges!!!!
How many times do I have to say this?

2002 was a long time ago, I didn't say it was a date where things changed. But you can't deny (though you're trying REALLY REALLY trying hard to) the fact that it DID change.

Ali was arrested because people on his board were talking about starting riots and doing things like wishing death upon the Royals, duh they would take action, what the hell do you expect?

I also said Rice visited AGAIN in November, obviously she figured something might've happend. She came to ENSURE that we're still up to what we're supposed to be doing.

Stop bragging about Jamsheer's freedoms when she faced the threat of three trials for critisizing family court judges!!!!!
The point is that she walked away FREELY, which did give her the FREEDOM to keep doing this. This is now her RIGHT. The government already admitted to that. Stop yelling like a child asking me to stop "bragging" about something when I'm simply making a point.
you've just become a ball of contradiction.
No, you just assume a lot of shit and misunderstand me AND the situation AND you depend ENTIRELY on the internet for your information, which is just laughable.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Meanwhile, I slipped in the early AM hours while responding, and made an error.
I don't care. It's almost 4 AM here and I don't use that as an excuse as to why I'm not being clear enough for you to understand what I've been trying to say. You mentioned Bahrain and then talked about Iran right after as if they were under the same law, as if it was IN Iran. I can't believe that you actually MEANT Bahrain since you didn't even consider the country's size when asking me the question regarding how many Jews I'd most likely find in Iran (not Bahrain, by the way, just in case it's early in the AM there) and why there aren't any Synagogues.

Sorry but you're gonna have to try harder than "it was 5 AM!" to cover this one up.

[Abcdxxxx]

Oh you think you're saving face now. Ah.

Don't cop out now though. Here, I'll even provide you with the verses in Arabic.


Sunni
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=A&Id=56312&Option=FatwaId
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=A&Id=23672&Option=FatwaId
http://saaid.net/Doat/Najeeb/f122.htm
http://hadith.al-islam.com/display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=7644

Shi'ite
http://www.rafed.net/books/fegh/menhaj3/menhaj1.html
http://www.ansar.org/arabic/radee3ah.htm
http://www.alshirazi.com/compilations/jar/horryat/part7/1.htm
http://www.makaremshirazi.org/books/arabic/resaleh/r26.htm


Now in return, can you source me some proof that Hindi was a Jew. I've asked around, and nobody seems to think she was Jewish at all.

By the way, had I filled out the paperwork, I would have qualified to vote in the recent Iraqi election. This isn't some pet topic for me either.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Hind bint Utbah was the wife of Abu Sufiyan ibn Harb. She was mother of Muawiya I. Her brother was killed in the Battle of Badr.

She was among the most bitter enemies of Muslims and the prophet Muhammad. During the battle of Uhud, the uncle of Muhammad, Hamza, was martyred by Wahshi, the slave of Jubayr b. Mutim. She cut out his liver and chewed it. She could not swallow it, and threw it away - for that, she is called "Hind the liver eater". (ref)

She and her husband accepted Islam at the time the conquest of Mecca.

The books I've read referred to her as a Jew. However, if she was a 'Kafir' (strong non-believer) then that would make the story of the Hadith even more relevent.

Do you speak any Arabic, then? If so, I'd like to continue this in PM.

In Arabic.

As it'll be much easier for me than English.

حق الصغيرة المزوجة بغير إذنها في الخيار بعد البلوغ

I'm a Sunni, and I don't believe in this. Don't give me a bunch of links written by people who hardly qualify to be called experts and expect me to try and justify what they're saying. I don't agree with it because they interpret the Koran the way THEY want to. There's a million ways you can look at the Koran, if it was that easy then we wouldn't have sub-catagories like that to begin wtih. And Islam would be the same in each area or region but clearly it isn't. That's due to the fact that we all interpret things differently. It doesn't mean that some people are right while others are wrong. But it also doesn't give you the right to assume that it is right when it could very well be wrong. Accept the possibilities.

[Abcdxxxx]

Two major Islamic sects believe in it, one doesn't. Your interpretation is obviously the healthier one, but if it doesn't reflect the beliefs* of popularized Islam, and you're only taking a stand against it with outsiders, instead of your own offending community.... it marginalizes the relevance of your interpretation, here. We agreed that one needs to work off the Arabic text... but now you can't blame the translation, these are Muslims making these claims.

*By beliefs, I mean, they will argue with rational for these verses, even if it means the inadvertant roundabout defense of pedophilia.
I'm not saying they engage in the behavior themself, though they do allow their clerics to license it.

By the way - It doesn't sound like Hindi was a Jew. Can you see how calling a "liver eating vindictive woman" a Jew when she wasn't, is derogatory to Jews, and promotes anti-Jewish sentiments?

I can't converse with you in Arabic. I was born in the States, and heard a mix of Hebrew, and Judeo-Arabic growing up. That's about it.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Her name is Hind, not Hindi. Writings suggest that she is a Jew. In school, I've been taught that she was a Jew. Who knows? She might've been a Kafir. There are no facts because materials are skewed everyday, especially when it goes back way too far in history for us to come up with convincing evidence. I just read a book that suggested that Khadeeja was in fact 30 when she married the Prophet Mohammed, that is not true. She was 45. "Facts" (or, what are they, really?) are altered for many reasons. Fine, there's no proof that Hind was a Jew, but there's no proof that she isn't either. Kafirs, in the Koran, are a lot worse than the Jews, therefore the example still supports the argument I'm making.

and promotes anti-Jewish sentiments?
Read what I said about the pagan Arabs.

We agreed that one needs to work off the Arabic text... but now you can't blame the translation, these are Muslims making these claims.

That's exactly the point I made earlier.

[Abcdxxxx]

Well, we agreed on that from the beginning. Again, something I had said before you entered into the conversation. So now that you can't use translation as an excuse, what is your response?

You see, the problem with Muslims who come up with these nice explanations is that you're out of touch with the clergy, and Imams.
The Pan-Arabist idea of gaining political power and conquest is what defines the Muslims of today and not the Koran. The Muslims follow the Hadith which was neither written by Mohamed nor by god and they do give the Hadith the status of the words of god.

As for the story of Hindi, please don't be so quick to write off the error. The story is new to me, but from a historical perspective, it seems unlikely she was Jewish, just based on who her father was, or who she was married to. Their alliance with Jews recieves special mention, which wouldn't be the case if she was Jewish herself. The habit of Islamic religious schools assiging the villain roll to Jews isn't something I'm comfortable with. As an outsider, and a Jew, the beauty of your larger message is completely lost on me once the story ends in conversion. The concept of a Kafir is an Islamic issue, and an attitude of co-existance is not an impressive gift. At least not for any Muslim who has read the Sura of Israa.... which given todays political climate, doesn't seem to be the case.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

So now that you can't use translation as an excuse, what is your response?
Did I use the translation as an excuse? I said it matters. I didn't say every translation is wrong and is full of flaws. Stop putting words in my mouth.

You see, the problem with Muslims who come up with these nice explanations is that you're out of touch with the clergy, and Imams.
You haven't been paying attention to anything I've said, then. I've already talked about my experience with Imams.

The Muslims follow the Hadith which was neither written by Mohamed nor by god and they do give the Hadith the status of the words of god.

Hadiths are words of the messenger, our prophet Mohammed, the ones that don't quote either God or the prophet are based on stories that (we believe) have happend to the prophet Mohammed. Check your sources before you spew more shit.

As for the story of Hindi
For the 2nd time, her name is Hind.

As an outsider, and a Jew, the beauty of your larger message is completely lost on me once the story ends in conversion
I don't really care how you interpret the story. I had a point and I made it. Take it how you will. Hind was not forced to convert. She converted way later after the incident that I spoke of, willingly. If she was forced to convert they would have forced her to do it before she taught herself more about Islam. However, this was not the case.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

It's GONE through it? You're certain about that? I mean, I'm not predicting a return to auto dafe I think you're being pretty cocky. Everybody always thinks the way things are in their time is hwere everything has always been headed and that history can just stop changing now.

Ugh. Okay, this moral equivalence crap is getting silly.

"Oh yeah! Oh yeah! They have suicide bombings and codified oppression of women!? Well what about Pat Robertson and anti-gay legislation!!?? IT'S ALL THE SAME!!"

:rolleyes

If we can't get away from citing the fucking Crusades every time we talk about a suicide bombing that happened YESTERDAY, then this argument is pointless. I also think it's in fact a discredit to intelligent and peaceful muslims all over the world.

"okay, so this muslim ran into a coffee shop in Israel and blew up some children....BUT, what VERSION of the Koran was he reading, huh?????"

!!!!!!!!!

This is crazy. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.


AND if it was correct to determine that a religion had something inherently evil in it, would you agree that Christianity should have thrown out with the bathwater during the Inquisition?

No, I didn't say there was anything evil about anything. My point was that you can believe all sorts of crazy religious texts, and take them at their most literal meaning, but it's how you choose to act on it that defines you. I think that's what separates Christianity in America today from Islam in the Middle East today, for example.

But there's barbarism a plenty in most of your religous texts, and even when there isn't much, there are always swaths of people ready to read it in.

Right, that's what I said.


Right now all three branches of government are controlled by a party headed by a man who does not seem to think the church/state divide is all that important and at very least is due for some serious ventilation.

Oh, come on Max. This isn't fair, it doesn't even belong in a conversation about the Koran being used to codify law in the Middle East.

When Bush says something that seems even remotely Christian, or seems to cross that church/state line, there are millions of Americans, led by Jon Stewart, who will jump on him for it. It'll get debated in the press. It'll be the punch line on Letterman. It simply isn't the same.

do you honestly believe that Christianity would be way more civil just do to it's inherent goodness?

I dunno, and you're probably right about colonialism and stuff, but we need to play the cards we're handed, no? Because white Europeans colonized the Middle East, should we stick our heads in the sand (no pun intended) and say "hey, sure they're killing Jews and locking up their women, but someone who looks like me killed someone who looks like them 200 years ago, so I need to stay quiet"?


I think violent fundamentalism is a problem all it's own, a poisonous, contageous mental sickness that grafts itself to religion. I think historically there is evidence that strong religous belief makes people vulnerable to fundamentalism. But religion isn't all it likes. It likes nationalism too, and even patriotism.

Certainly, and this is basically all I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to judge Islam, but I am saying that the problem with Islam isn't colonialists, or Israel, or America, or the Lawrence. It's a problem that will ultimately only be solved by Muslims.

[Abcdxxxx]

Fuzzbot - You're all fluff if that was supposed to be your big comeback. I'm dissapointed, really. Let me ask you... how many Hadiths do you happen to believe are authentic ? Isn't there a difference of opinion, and isn't it standard knowledge that some Hadiths were deemed to be forgeries ? By the way, I said the Hadiths recieve the same STATUS as gods word...which is different then questioning if they're gods word.

[mburbank]

Kev; well, now I have a clearer idea what you're saying , I don't think we disagree very much.

Heres the problem I see.

"A Muslim ran into coffee shop and blew it up because he was Muslim! All Muslims, if they have not blown up a coffee shop yet are liable too soon enough!"

I agree, this is a problem that needs a Muslim solution. One could wish for a Muslim Gandhi, and I'm sujre lots of Muslims do.

As far as relatavism goes, I think you miss me. I'm not saying the Inquisition justifies suicide bombing. All I'm saying is pride goeth before the fall. If you want to say Christianity currently has fewer fundamentalists who are generally less a savage then Islam, we don't disagree. But I don't think that has anything to do with the superiority of our good book, and I don't have any faith that history is linear. History is littered with the wreckage of people who thought their worst behavior was in the past.

"Oh, come on Max. This isn't fair, it doesn't even belong in a conversation about the Koran being used to codify law in the Middle East. "

I think it does. Islam has been hijacked. Christianity is ripe for hijack. You are comfortable it can't happen here. I'm not. We have a President who believes God speaks to him who looses no sleep over the death and destruction he's involved in. The administration is actively testing the waters of removing habeus corpus, instatutionalizing torture and the removal of separation of powers. We are about to have a justice on the court who believes in unified executive power. We have a Republican party in control and the core of it's leadship have publicly stated they want as close to a one party system as they are able to get. Do you see a resistance forming? Do you think if George Bush, Dick Chenney, Grover Norquist, Pat Robertson saw the chance to achieve the power of a mullah they'd scruple over it? Don't you think there were probably lots of Muslims who at one point or another said "Hey, I'm devout, but what the fuck is going on here?" along the way?

The time to wake up to encroaching fundamentalism is before it takes root. Sure, we'd never let ol' W do anything silly like declare martial law or round up the intellectuals. We have a really great constitution that keeps that from happening. But what if you add a little fear into the mix, say a big terrorist strike? And the Fundamentalists on the other side of the fence would be happy to help.

I think these cats are seriously dangerous to America. I truly do. And I think they'd like to use some sickening blend of ultra simple minded Christianity and nationalism to back of their version of the 'law' just exactly the way the Koran is currently being abused. I just think we're earlier in the process and lacking a few key ingredients that unfortunately the 'shadowy war against a shadowy enemy' provides.

I hope you're right and I'm wrong, I hope the really serious threats are all on the outside but I think some very powerful interests are trying to make fundamental changes to America on a scale that would have shamed Nixon. I keep waiting for the pendulum to swing the other way like it did when McCarthy fell part, but I don't see it yet.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Fuzzbot - You're all fluff if that was supposed to be your big comeback. I'm dissapointed, really. Let me ask you... how many Hadiths do you happen to believe are authentic ? Isn't there a difference of opinion, and isn't it standard knowledge that some Hadiths were deemed to be forgeries ? By the way, I said the Hadiths recieve the same STATUS as gods word...which is different then questioning if they're gods word.
If you've read correctly, you fucking ignorant piece of shit, you would've noticed that I already answered those questions indirectly in my post. Do you think I give a shit what disappoints you? You fucking thought Bahrain was a part of Iran, that's fucking laughable. GO DO YOUR RESEARCH. Or are you going to keep blaming it on "IT WAS 5 AM AND YOUR POSTS ARE LONG AND I COULDN'T KEEP UP!"

The Koran is long too, do you get confused a lot with where's where and what's what? Do you misunderstand it so much because you only read it at 5 AM?
Isn't there a difference of opinion, and isn't it standard knowledge that some Hadiths were deemed to be forgeries ?
That is my own business and no one else's. This is why I put (we believe) in that sentence. I believe. Not YOU, I believe that they are the words representing the prophet, I couldn't care less that you fucking don't think so, how does that effect me? We know which ones were forgeries and which ones weren't. It's apparent in the language itself, too bad you don't even speak it before critisizing. People attempted to re-write parts of the Koran, but others can find this out with ease. We know which ones are true and which ones are not because the Koran itself is based on hadiths. We know more about the prophet through hadiths. It isn't an explanation of the Koran. It's confirmation of what's in it.

So if it's not included in the Koran, then obviously it's not really reliable. Are you following? Something tells me you're going to ask a stupid question that's going to end up in me repeating everything I've said.

This is my religion. My personal choice. My faith. I believe what I feel is right to believe in. I believe those Hadiths just like any other Christian would believe in the miracles of Jesus. I believe those Hadiths stressed the importance of the Prophet just like someone from any other religion would believe that their holy text are the words of Gods. What's sickening here is that you think you're being so clever (which you're not, I've yet to see someone half as dumb) without even realizing that if you re-word those phrases, you can actually apply those questions to ANY religion. Those questions are the BASIS of understanding a particular religion. This is what makes religion so personal - You can debate about what you find wrong or questionable in Islam, but the fact remains that you're not even willing to learn because like ziggytrix said, you already MADE your biased opinion regarding this matter and you will do your research (in your case, sadly, it's Google) by trying to find things by looking for it from one lense.

Sucks to be you.

[Abcdxxxx]

1) I've addressed several very direct questions to you, and you refuse to answer any of them. If you're not capable, then don't bother responding. It speaks volumes to my credebility. I don't think google is half as sad as your no response ass.

2) You're back to the language and translation defense, yet, when I presented my claims with the translations IN ARABIC you copped out then too. You already said you're not using it as a defense, then in the next breath you're bitching that I don't speak the language.

3) You're some twit with a computer trying to spread the gospel, and getting challenged. I'm interested in what POPULAR Islam believes. You're nothing. Not to me, and not to the Islamic clergy. What are we supposed to learn from you, when you're completely out of touch with the Islamic clergy, and imams? It sounds like you're butt hurt and don't want to be questioned.... maybe you should have thought of that before you put yourself out on a forum, and got smeared.

4) Your response would have one presume that the Hadiths are clear cut, and that the forged Hadiths are universally recognized in Islam. You wouldn't respond with the number of Hadiths you recognize, but I asked because different Muslims use different groups of Hadiths which they recognize as legit. Meaning, there are Muslims using Hadiths you probably don't.

5) We're talking about Pan-Islamism as a political ideology. Your theological outreach bullshit is pure self indulgence. What you personally believe, and what you were personally taught is anecdotal.

[glowbelly]

i think you're being an ass :O

[Pharaoh]

Spot on Abcdxxxx. The five pillars of fuzzbot.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Spot on Abcdxxxx. The five pillars of fuzzbot.

I think cheerleader might be the appropriate role for you here.

[Pharaoh]

OK
:rock :troutslap :rock :troutslap :rock :troutslap :rock :troutslap :rock :troutslap :rock
Go! Go Abcdxxxx go! Fight! Fight Abcdxxxx fight! Win. Win Abcdxxxx win! :lol

[mburbank]

I hope you're wearing a tight skirt right now. It's no damn good if you're not wearing a real tight skirt.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

1) I've addressed several very direct questions to you, and you refuse to answer any of them. If you're not capable, then don't bother responding. It speaks volumes to my credebility. I don't think google is half as sad as your no response ass.
I'm not going to spoon-feed you. I've answered your questions as best as I can.

2) You're back to the language and translation defense, yet, when I presented my claims with the translations IN ARABIC you copped out then too. You already said you're not using it as a defense, then in the next breath you're bitching that I don't speak the language.
WTF IS THIS DOUBLE TALK HEY IT'S 5 AM! I said it's possible to make flaws even in the Arabic INTERPRETATION. Because the Koran uses a very difficult language. Arabic comes in 22 different forms. Islamic Arabic differs from everything else, even the basic language we use for literature. Most of the diction is hard to comprehend.

3) You're some twit
From Bahrain, which you thought was in Iran. :lol

4) Meaning, there are Muslims using Hadiths you probably don't.
Well thanks for stating the obvious. I never said there was one type of Hadith, of course they come in different forms if there's sub-catagories of Islam.

5) We're talking about Pan-Islamism as a political ideology. Your theological outreach bullshit is pure self indulgence. What you personally believe, and what you were personally taught is anecdotal.
No, what we're talking about is what I personally believe, you pseudo-intellect who reeks of utter ignorance. That's the whole fucking point of my first post. As for my take on Pan-Islamism, the problem with it is the spirtiual and intellectual diveristy that had characterized the Muslim faith from the start, which made the prospects of achieving religious solidarity across sectarian lines highly unlikely. This was particularly true in the light of the rising Islamic puritan movement, which sought to strip the religion of its cultural innovations.

You're nothing.
Is this the part where you set fire to my trousers and hit me in the face with rivet guns?

Not to me

Gee, that's clever AND intelligent AND it's sure to make me cry for 3 days straight.

Who the fuck CARES if I don't mean anything to you? I'm not on AmericanSingles.com, I'm expressing my opinions on a public message board. Do you even HAVE any idea about this religion? No one has to approve of you but God! No one has to accept you but God, why would I give a shit if you're dumping me, let alone because of my religion?

Minger.

Out of touch with Imams
Imams mean shit. You want to know what fucks Saudi Arabia up? Imams. Why do I have to be in touch with Imams, you toad, if they know no more about Islam than I do? I don't rely on bearded bastards to tell me right from wrong. I'm literate, thankyouverymuch, I can read it for myself in the Koran. It's my final authority. If I needed help, believe me, an Imam would be the last person I'd go to. If you know anything about this area you'd realize what the reputation of Imams are. Look it up (yes, that means open that other IE window, it's as far as your research will go!)

I'm pretty sure we're done here. You assumed a lot of crap, knew fuck-all about the origins and evolution of Islam, or the basic geography of the Middle East, a place you love to critisize blindly, and resorted to petty insults to pat yourself on the back for something you weren't even close to achieving.

Fuck knows why you post a lot if you're as ignorant as you came off here, but if you can't annoy the shit out of people with your sulky, melancholy whining, what can you do...?

:(

[kahljorn]

ABC sounds kind of racist and bigoted to me at times. Does anybody else see that in him, or is it just me?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

ABC sounds kind of racist and bigoted to me at times. Does anybody else see that in him, or is it just me?
Well, I don't mean to 'gang up' or anything, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so. He keeps cornering others for no apparent reason whatsoever, even though he knows he has nothing to offer but silly excuses for his errors and invalid accusations. He's just one of those self-righteous bores who won't fuck off until they've clenched their fists in victory.

I don't see the point of half of the posts he made in this thread, especially the ones directed towards me, so I don't really want to argue with him, but he's like this little irritating bug in my ear that I feel the need to zap with some repellant immediately. I wonder if he realizes that the elementary questions he's asking me, are all questions I've already asked myself a long time ago.

If it's going to help him sleep at night, I'm ready to just hand this to him and Pharaoh (I am nothing more than a doormat to his highness.)

[Chojin]

Who the fuck CARES if I don't mean anything to you? I'm not on AmericanSingles.com, I'm expressing my opinions on a public message board.
:lol

[Abcdxxxx]

Oddly, you've unwittingly coroborated about half the posts I've made about the Islamic religion in the past week.

Muslims aren't a race, but I haven't said a thing bigoted, or you'd be quoting me on it. What I do know is it's not hard to find where Fuzzbot libelled Jewish women, or questioned the integrity of a scholar simply because he's Jewish. That doesn't bother Kahlhorn or Ziggy apparently. We know that he promotes Conversion as a form of mercy, and that when confronted with Arabic text accepted within major Islamic sects, which licenses child molestation, he writes it off, without accountability for religious pluralism. When asked about homosexuals, he pretends he's being progressive by stating there are worse sins. He lied about freedom of speech in the Arab world. Thank goodness Bahrain, and Tehran sound nothing alike, or that he used the word "here" to describe someplace he wasn't. He wants to only trade verses in Arabic, unless you actually provide him with the Arabic. When asked about Abu Afak, who was murdered for speaking out against conversion, he has no response. When asked about Abu Qurayz, where the entire male Jewish populat was slaughter, while women and children were enslaved, he has no response.

Gang up all you want. I take it as a tribute when you act like you disagree with me, and then say the exact same shit I just said, like it was your own idea. I've studied this shit for decades, and I've argued about it with better.

[CosmoToad]

stop posting long usless crap, no one will read it, and if they do they wont give a damn. And why so defensive, I mean no one did anything, bad

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Thank goodness Bahrain, and Tehran sound nothing alike, or that he used the word "here" to describe someplace he wasn't.
Nice try again, you used Bahrain and Tehran IN THE SAME POST.

Let me re-phrase that: You included Bahrain and Tehran in ONE sentence and for the rest of the post, you continued discussing media laws in IRAN. Even though we were CLEARLY talking about the Arab world.

Muslims aren't a race
No, they're homophobic orphans who enjoy basket-weaving for Jesus.

but I haven't said a thing bigoted
Who accused you of that?! Those smarmy cunts. >: Don't take it personally, they're just mean because they lost the argument! You've always been SMRAT!!

or you'd be quoting me on it.
We can't keep bringing up your posts, it's painful to read. Like a full cavity search with a Ginsu knife.

We know that he promotes Conversion as a form of mercy, and that when confronted with Arabic text accepted within major Islamic sects, which licenses child molestation, he writes it off, without accountability for religious pluralism
Couldn't be further from the truth, but I'll let you enjoy this thought.

When asked about homosexuals, he pretends he's being progressive by stating there are worse sins
I didn't really imply that. The question was more specific, as was my answer.

He lied about freedom of speech in the Arab world.
I didn't lie, you just confused us with Iran. I showed you articles of our constitution that promote freedom of speech. I've brought up Jamsheer. You used an example that actually proved and clarified my point (thanks again, I want to shower you with rose petals for that.)

He wants to only trade verses in Arabic
I thought it would lead to cybersex. Your spirit positively shines onto me and it makes me warm and hopeful and I want nothing more than to spend the rest of my life beside you, in bed with you, across from you, within arms reach from you.

When asked about Abu Afak, who was murdered for speaking out against conversion, he has no response.

I didn't respond because we'd be telling the same story, I didn't see the point of that.

When asked about Abu Qurayz, where the entire male Jewish populat was slaughter, while women and children were enslaved, he has no response.

All religions have gone through that. Saying "HAY BUT THE CHRISTIANS SNAPPED MY NECK LIKE A TWIG AND THE JEWS STEPPED ON MY TOES WITHOUT APOLOGIZING IN THE YR 1245" or "THOSE MUSLIMS RAPED MY MOM AND STOLE MILK FROM HER BREASTS 'CAUSE THEYRE MONSTERS WHO EAT FIDDLESTICKS FOR DINNER" or "THAT FUCKING JEW POKED ME IN THE EYE WITH HIS AFRO" doesn't mean anything. We all commit violence in the name of religion, as stated before. I have no interest in denying anything other Muslims did to make it seem like we're the best and purest religion in the world. I just wanted to clear up a few misconceptions, that's all, it's not like I'm begging you to convert.

I take it as a tribute when you act like you disagree with me, and then say the exact same shit I just said, like it was your own idea.
Now he accuses me of plagiarism. Where have I done this? Which thought did I steal from you? Do tell, oh devourer of small gods held sacred by remote mountainous people.

I've studied this shit for decades
Cool. I am studying psychology and you make an interesting side project.

and I've argued about it with better.
Oh hey man, you beat my ass. With chains. The way the Shiites do in the name of Hassan and Hussain. Totally changed my whole perspective on the world and on myself. I'm seriously impressed, I mean, Jesus, you must have trekked through Nepal, watched the sunrise in the Australian Outback and gone on a pilgrimage to Mecca while the rest of us 'immature' ones trawled a lonely, wretched existence.

Tell us more! Teach us! I know nothing! I am nothing! I'm a crusty botch of nature! I bite my thumb at you, Sir!

[CosmoToad]

right on

[Abcdxxxx]

Pan Arabism is a political ideology that calls for the establishment of an Arab State in the area that was ruled by the Arabs during the Umayyads Dynasty.

Pan-Islamism is a political ideology that calls for the establishment of an Islamic State similar to that that was established during the rightly guided Caliphs

Meanwhile, the Lebanese were Phoenicians, the Syrians are Syriacs the Iraqis are Chaldanians, Assyrians, Arabs, and Persians amongst other ethnicities. It goes on and on. Iran sits alongside these diverse nations, as one of the most powerfull members of the Arab League.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Pan Arabism is a political ideology that calls for the establishment of an Arab State in the area that was ruled by the Arabs during the Umayyads Dynasty.

Pan-Islamism is a political ideology that calls for the establishment of an Islamic State similar to that that was established during the rightly guided Caliphs

Meanwhile, the Lebanese were Phoenicians, the Syrians are Syriacs the Iraqis are Chaldanians, Assyrians, Arabs, and Persians amongst other ethnicities. It goes on and on. Iran sits alongside these diverse nations, as one of the most powerfull members of the Arab League.
o'rly?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Iran sits alongside these diverse nations, as one of the most powerfull members of the Arab League.

The current members of the Arab League (and the date of their admission):

Egypt - March 22, 1945 (Founder) (suspended, 1979-1989)
Iraq - March 22, 1945 (Founder)
Jordan - March 22, 1945 (Founder) (entered when still using the name "Transjordan")
Lebanon - March 22, 1945 (Founder)
Saudi Arabia - March 22, 1945 (Founder)
Syria - March 22, 1945 (Founder)
Yemen - May 5, 1945 (Founder)
Libya - March 28, 19531
Sudan - January 19, 1956
Morocco - October 1, 1958
Tunisia - October 1, 1958
Kuwait - July 20, 1961
Algeria - August 16, 1962
United Arab Emirates - June 12, 1971
Bahrain - September 11, 1971
Qatar - September 11, 1971
Oman - September 29, 1971
Mauritania - November 26, 1973
Somalia - February 14, 1974
Palestine - succeeding to the position held by the Palestine Liberation Organization since September 9, 1976
Djibouti - April 9, 1977
Comoros - November 20, 1993

Iran is not a member of the Arab League.

Thanks for listening to everything I've been saying. Because I've only fucking stressed it like 100 times or maybe 1000 or perhaps even 5000 when it was 5 AM in the morning and I was confused.

After everything we've gone through, you still CONTINUE to make Iran seem as if it has anything to do with the Arab world. They consider it an insult if you associate them with us. So don't do that, especially if you claim to understand why.

Oh God, just go away already.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Pan Arabism is a political ideology that calls for the establishment of an Arab State in the area that was ruled by the Arabs during the Umayyads Dynasty.

Stop giving us big words for something so simple. Pan-Arabism is just another word for 'racial unity' as opposed to religious unity, as it was a more pragmatic goal. This was also easier to achieve than Pan-Islamism. Muslim unity could not be realized except through Arab unity anyways, that's why Pan-Arabism was seen as a practical step.

There. No need for anything else. Unless you want to get into European colonialism, which is a loooong story that I'd rather you look up yourself. Along with what the Salafiyyah's aspired, which was replaced with Pan-Arabism. In al-Husri's words, I'm pararaphasing, I don't remember the quote and can't be bothered to look it up, "religion is something between you and God, the fatherland is here for all of us to take care of." Or something to that effect. That's why the Pan-Arabists considered this movement to be political AND religious, since Islam couldn't be seperated from its strong Arab roots.

While eating a banana I realized that I should add something. Pan-Islamists, Pan-Arabists, al-Banna (whom I mentioned earlier), the radical Islamists and the Islamic socialists ALL called for a return to what they referred to as the "unadulterated Muslim community" (which was established by prophet Mohammed in Medina.) Of course everyone had different visions of that community. The Wahabists (if you wanna talk about Imams you have to familiarize yourself with this) had an exlusivist vision: Anyone who doesn't share it, including the Shiites and the Sufis, would be killed. Nice! Notice how there's many Wahabists in Saudi Arabia who'd still like to follow this model? Notice how many of these Wahabists serve as Imams?

And you want me to be more in touch with them. I like how you just assumed that all Imams preached for the same thing. A lot of them are extremists. An Imam, in its simple definition, in Arabic, means the one who "leads" the prayer. It doesn't mean anything else. Don't tell me these are like the know-it alls of Islam. Michael Jackson knows more about Islam than some of these fucks by just LIVING here*

*Here: West Ruffa, Bahrain.*
*Bahrain: Not Iran.*
*Iran: Not part of the Arab League. It's a powerful country in the region*, however.
*Middle East.

There, I was as clear as I could get.

[ScruU2wice]

The koran wasn't based off of hadiths, the koran is God's words according to islam, I'm not a scholar but I can tell you that for sure :/

But Hadiths are where the religion goes nuts in my opinion. There are so many that are not even misinterperted as much as just completely abused. For instance, I read a hadith or saying that the prophet mohammad pbuh enjoyed dates, milke, and olive oil.

Somehow in some completely insane leap of logic, people believe that we should only eat the foods the prophet liked, so mountain dew and cheetos will land you a one way ticket to hell. Now in all honesty I can't see how you can even start to blaim religious texts or hadiths where people have already demonstrated an extremely loose grip on reality.

If you wanna go ahead and say that the people of the religion are psychopaths and misguided, I don't care and might even agree with you. But to say that the entire religion preaches hate is more backwards thinking than you can shake a stick at.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

The koran wasn't based off of hadiths, the koran is God's words according to islam, I'm not a scholar but I can tell you that for sure
Yeah, the Koran is God's words, but certain Hadiths are God's words too. Some Hadiths are basically just God's words used in a story, so we can see how it applies to certain things. Like I said before, it's mostly used just to confirm what's already in the Koran: meaning God's words.
But Hadiths are where the religion goes nuts in my opinion. There are so many that are not even misinterperted as much as just completely abused.
I agree with you there, but certain Hadiths make sense to me because it highlights certain parts of the Koran.

This is why Hadiths start with things like: The Prophet Mohammed's reply to that was - "As God said.... " (a few lines from a verse in the Koran.)

But I mean, think about how far back this was. Fresh gossip changes by the end of the day, it's like that game "broken telephone" or whatever you call it, so of course by now it's extremely distorted, this is why for the Sunnis the Koran is our final authority. The Shiites claim that a lot of things happened after the Prophet's death and were more significant, which I just can't agree with.

I'd call Wahabists psychopaths and misguided, because they keep saying that women are basically an embarrassment to society. They should wash dishes and be yelled at for more sex or food. So we're trying to keep the Wahabists out, but it's not working, they already have their own mosque where they mislead other kids into believing that this is the right way for a Muslim to think. Islam has a LOT of respect for women, it's like a certain Hadith that said (rough translation, it sounds better and more poetic in Arabic) -

A man is walking and stuff and he spots the prophet, and asks, "Who is your best friend?" and the prophet goes, "My mother, my mother, my mother, and then my father." This alone should clear up a few things about gender. I'm sure you know that in the Koran it states, and more than once, that Paradise is under the feet of mothers.

[ziggytrix]

What I do know is it's not hard to find where Fuzzbot libelled Jewish women, or questioned the integrity of a scholar simply because he's Jewish. That doesn't bother Kahlhorn or Ziggy apparently.


Really,you don't you think you've beaten this thread to death at this point?

You're gleefully discarding any possible evidence that Islam is not fundamentally wicked, since it doesn't fit into your preconceived notions - I'm sorry, I mean scholarly opinion - that Islamic extremism is a thousand times worse than any other religious or nationalist extremism.

I'd say he questioned the integrity of the scholar because said scholar puts the most bloodthirsty spin possible on the words of someone else's definition of God. Would you expect a Southern Baptist to take seriously an atheistic linguists' translation of the New Testament? The fact that you'd spin it like that backs up the whole "you = bigot" premise.

As for your cries of "libel against Jewish women" would you care to quote, cuz no way I'm sifting through all that bullshit just to find out you're still harping about the daft cunt who allegedly ate Mohammed's cousin's liver or whatever. The Bible has a story about some woman (who OMG HAPPENS TO BE JEWISH!) asking for the head of John the Baptist on a platter. This clearly means that Christianity libels all Jewish women as HEADHUNTERS! Oh fuck, I'll bet Jesus is pissed about that one, you know, his mama was Jewish. And I know I don't truck with people talking bout MY mama!

As for anything else you had or will have to say about the subject, I am so tired of reading your hate speech against Islam that I just don't care anymore. You've completely sapped my will to care one way or the other about the subject.

Chalk that up as a "W" if you like cuz I fuckin quit.

[Abcdxxxx]

Really Ziggy? Would you back up the argument that a Jew couldn't fairly judge a Muslim defendant in a court of Law because he's Jewish? I believe ones abilities to be a scholar, and making your lifes work translating a text should speak for itself. If it's a poor translation, then so be it. To say his motives are based in his own religious beliefs, and bias, is a stretch. There are plenty of linguists, theologists, and archeologists who provide credible studies that also happen to be Jewish.

To clear up your confusion, the concern with the liver eating woman's story goes like this: there is plenty of animosity in the Muslim world towards Jews...to label a villain as a Jew, when in fact she wasn't contributes to that climate. It's a libel. Oh and don't quit because you never started. You were the one arguing that Islam was a problem religion, while I was saying the problem was in the practice and interpretation. No hate speak here.

[Abcdxxxx]

Fuzzy brain bot...

I'm not arguing that Bahrain and Iran are the same place you shitwhich. I'm not arguing that Iranians/Persians are Arabs (though Iran does have a minority population of Arabs).

I do consider Iran a member of the Arab League. They attend meetings, like the National Conference held in Cairo. At the moment, Iran has the power plate in the region, even if their official membership status was rejected, they attend as observers.

More telling is their desire to be a part of the A.L. Iran doesn't see the political seperation that you do.
http://www.iranian.com/Shahmolki/2003/December/Arab/
It would be a sad day
On the Islamic Republic's desire to join the Arab League

December 2, 2003
The Iranian

The Islamic Republic has decided that Iran should join the Arab League.Â* Sadly this is not a joke.Â* Apparently, some time ago, the leaders of the Islamic Republic decided that it would be a good thing for Iran to become a member of the Arab League.Â* So, they quietly made an application to become a member, albeit as an observer without the right to vote.Â*

My take on Pan-Arabism, as it originated through the influence of hte Grand Mufti is one in which Iran continues to play a major roll. At the moment, it's their show, while the Saudis lay low. The Ummayyad dynasty included Persians.

[ziggytrix]

Really Ziggy? Would you back up the argument that a Jew couldn't fairly judge a Muslim defendant in a court of Law because he's Jewish?

Is that supposed to be a better analogy than my HOLY BIBLE: Atheist Edition? Go preach the evils of Islam elsewhere, cuz you've worn it out here.


You were the one arguing that Islam was a problem religion, while I was saying the problem was in the practice and interpretation. No hate speak here.

Bullshit. You have argued MANY times the Muslims, Palestenians, etc are just violent and nasty and is it any wonder they're always blowing things up! This time you specifically said the <insert synonym for problem that still allows for cognative dissonance here> was in the fundamentals, and not extremist hijacking of the religion (har har, hijackers). When I used the word "problem" I was not making an argument, I was just putting words into your mouth in an attempt to get you to cut through your bullshit, since you either lack the balls or the brains to say what you imply every time you talk about Islam on this board.




PS - since I "never started" this clearly doesn't count as breaking my previous resolution to quit. Those little technical victories are just so satisfying, wouldn't you agree? ;)

[Abcdxxxx]

Actually, I've routinely argued that they have better options then to blow themselves up.

You're so fucked in the head, and full of assumptions about what I believe that your autoform response to everything I've said on this forum for years now has been the exact same bullshit. I'm a secular Jew who supports Israel, and most forms of Zionism. To you that means I hate Islam, and Palestinians, and that I'm biased. While you think you're baiting me, I'm arguing what I believe. You can play David Duke all you want, I'll just answer you like you're sincere anyway. You wouldn't want to be defending any "towel heads" in this thread, right? Your words. You're doing the right thing by taking yourself out of this conversation. You should have stuck to running around raves, and dosing little girls with herbal GHB. Talking politics just isn't for you.

[kahljorn]

:lol Dosing little girls with herbal GHB.

If somebody really wanted to be an asshole they could bring up all the downfallings of the Jews and their religion. I think it would be funny to see how he would respond to that.

[Abcdxxxx]

Yeah, tell me about all those Rabbis lobbying for honor killings this week.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Fuzzy brain bot...

I'm not arguing that Bahrain and Iran are the same place you shitwhich. I'm not arguing that Iranians/Persians are Arabs (though Iran does have a minority population of Arabs).

I do consider Iran a member of the Arab League. They attend meetings, like the National Conference held in Cairo. At the moment, Iran has the power plate in the region, even if their official membership status was rejected, they attend as observers.

More telling is their desire to be a part of the A.L. Iran doesn't see the political seperation that you do.
http://www.iranian.com/Shahmolki/2003/December/Arab/
It would be a sad day
On the Islamic Republic's desire to join the Arab League

December 2, 2003
The Iranian

The Islamic Republic has decided that Iran should join the Arab League.Â* Sadly this is not a joke.Â* Apparently, some time ago, the leaders of the Islamic Republic decided that it would be a good thing for Iran to become a member of the Arab League.Â* So, they quietly made an application to become a member, albeit as an observer without the right to vote.Â*

My take on Pan-Arabism, as it originated through the influence of hte Grand Mufti is one in which Iran continues to play a major roll. At the moment, it's their show, while the Saudis lay low. The Ummayyad dynasty included Persians.

Iran is not part of the Arab League. There are other observers who aren't part of the Arab League. Iran made it clear, in so many words, why they don't want to become part of the Arab League.

Of course they're going to attend meetings, you fucking nutcase, they live right smack in the middle of us. They have the right to know what's going on.

I'm not arguing that Bahrain and Iran are the same place you shitwhich. I'm not arguing that Iranians/Persians are Arabs

:lol

(though Iran does have a minority population of Arabs).

:lol

SO WHAT? You put this in as if this has anything to do with what you said. Pakistan has a minority population of Arabs too. India as well. Does that make India and Pakistan close enough to be Arab? Dickshit.

The fact remains that you thought that Bahrain is in Iran, this is a big mistake that you just can't admit to. Your post are proof of this. Don't get out of this like the pathetic unwitty snake you're trying to come off as. Someone puts you in their place and you just dig through another shitty unreliable source and try to get out of it, it's not working. You are stupid, your posts are stupid, you argument has no point, you know nothing, yet you insist on making yourself seem misunderstood. You STILL need to show me where I took your ideas and claimed as if they were my own. Where and how did I do this?

As for your take on Pab-Arabism/Islamism, you are not saying anything constructive at ALL. You've opened up a window and copied and pasted how this came about. That's not 'discussing' it as a political ideology which is what you wanted to talk about, that's being redundant, irrelevant and stupid. I already know the history behind these ideas, I don't need some nutcase to tell me.

You don't know what you're talking about, PERIOD. Do yourself a favour and stop banging your labotamized head on the wall trying to think up another post to hide behind your ignorance.

[Abcdxxxx]

Well thank goodness Iran isn't sinking 5-20 million a month into Arab Nationalist causes then!

Speaking of "redundant, irrelevant, and stupid" I'm glad you keep clinging to that Bahrain shit, like you got some red herring tourettes. It shows how insecure and threatened you are. H'bout another essay contest hissy fit about how I don't know what an Arab is? I could make every response to you about your bullshit claims that suicide bombers are the direct response of Israeli "torture". I could remind you that I disproved the notion that you were raised in an open free speech environment, which is in part why you're out in Switzerland trying to actually get what you described as a "proper education".

Now you want me to say something you deem constructive? Try this: your perception of the Middle East is inside out, backwards, and you're nothing more then a useless apologetic for the typical party lines. You think you're unique and progressive because you will ACKNOWLEDGE certain things... but your next breaths are just as rhetoric filled as your parents generation. That's typical. You think Americans are dumb, Jews biased.... and you balk at secondary sources while providing none of your own. You haven't said a single thing that that wouldn't be covered in the first month of some hack mid-east studies course in a third rate American University. Yeah, you're blowing our minds. Getting to talk to a real life Muslim being disingenous about his community is so exotic.

If someone puts me in my place, I would shut my mouth and learn a thing or two instead of kicking and screaming like a fucking fetus.

You're just a teenager of the month club reject on the internet. Get a fucking mirror, and take the pacifier out of your ass.

[ziggytrix]

Speaking of "redundant, irrelevant, and stupid" I'm glad you keep clinging to that Bahrain shit, like you got some red herring tourettes.

"Uh, I was wrong about something? Uh, no, I wasn't wrong, it was just, uh, irrelevant to the conversation. Yeah it was irrelevant! And I wasn't wrong!"


Man, I don't have to make assumptions about what you believe. You've been crystal clear the whole time.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I don't know what an Arab is
I'm glad you admit it.
I'm glad you keep clinging to that Bahrain shit
You spoke confidently about a country you didn't only know SHIT about, but you didn't even know WHERE it was, or the fact that it is a country! That speaks volumes about your lack of basic knowledge when it comes to this field. I shudder with embarrassment for you. You can't convince anybody here of anything you say regarding this simply because even the shittiest of the dumbshits know more than you do. You claim to know, but you don't, you assume things and pass your ill-informed opinions off as facts.
your perception of the Middle East is inside out, backwards, and you're nothing more then a useless apologetic for the typical party lines.
:lol
You haven't said a single thing that that wouldn't be covered in the first month of some hack mid-east studies course in a third rate American University. Yeah, you're blowing our minds. Getting to talk to a real life Muslim being disingenous about his community is so exotic.

:lol
You're just a teenager of the month club reject on the internet. Get a fucking mirror, and take the pacifier out of your ass.
Oh my God, stop! My stomach is screaming obscenities at me for laughing too much.

"WTF IVE STUDIED THIS FOR DECARES UR JUST 19 YOU DONT KNOW SHIT I KNOW IRAN IS NOT ARAB BUT ITS PART OF THE ARAB LEAGUE I MEAN NOT REALLY I MEAN YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

SHIT I DON'T KNOW WHAT I MEAN. SO LETS TALK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE ABBASSIDS OH REALLY CUZ I DONT KNOW LET ME LOOK IT UP.

OH OKAY SORRY SHIT OKAY I DIDNT REALLY GET IT BUT I'LL PRETEND AS IF I CAN RECALL THIS SHIT FROM MEMORY.

YEAH IM GOING TO PASTE THIS SHIT FROM THE INTERNET AND SEE HOWY OU LIKE IT THIS IS A POLITICAL IDEAOLOGY I DIDNT EVEN KNOW WHAT IT ISFSDF

HELLO?

IS THIS THING ON?

I WASN'T WRONG IT'S JUST 5 AM AND IM TIRED

PS - YOURE A TEEN SO YR OPINIONS ARE INVALID!"

[Abcdxxxx]

You're a DONKEY. You were 13, and barely studying the Koran when 9/11 happened. You entire perception is colored by a world where a secular society actually gives a shit about the Koran.

Enough Hee-Haw, Heee-haw... stop primping and provide us with some sources for this misinformed propagandist bullshit you only WISH you said in error:

Do you think it's easy having a religious debate with a kid who saw his mother get raped and killed?[/qoute]......[qoute]the Israelis are doing things that are thrice as bad as this, wiping out thrice as much of the population. Just compare the death tolls in each country and see for yourself. ............ Most of them are 13. ......Most of them are KIDS. 13 year olds are kids.

Why don't you look up the history of Lebannon* and see how the Christians and Muslims were living in the same definite terrority?
(*The civil war was a political and territorial dispute and not religious.

He forgave a Jewish woman called Hind from his tribe who killed his uncle Hamza


Why don't you look up the history of Jordan and look at the presence of Judaism there, amongst Islam?.....When I talked about Jordan I was talking about Al Banna's Islamization project.

In the end we believe in the same God
I'm sure you know that suicide in general is forbidden in the Koran.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

You're a DONKEY. You were 13, and barely studying the Koran when 9/11 happened. You entire perception is colored by a world where a secular society actually gives a shit about the Koran.

It's been well-established that you're an ignorant tit who knows absolutely nothing about this matter. Nothing. Zero. Sefr. Rien.

Time for you to leave. Head on a platter and all.

:)

[Abcdxxxx]

So you can't back up your mouth?

Like I said...TRY GOOGLE.

There's a whole page of errors you made. Back it up, or shut the fuck up and logout.

The next post you make should be citations, links, and proof.... no more ignorance, no mores lies....

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

So you can't back up your mouth?

Like I said...TRY GOOGLE.

:lol

No wonder you're so clueless.

no more ignorance, no mores lies....

You should put that on a shirt. You'd look cute in it.

[Abcdxxxx]

Yup, meanwhile you're the Emperor without any clothes.

You can't source your rhetoric because it's made up garbage. Nothing you say has a basis in reality.

What a sad, lazy, Dawa reject.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Yup, meanwhile you're the Emperor without any clothes.

You can't source your rhetoric because it's made up garbage. Nothing you say has a basis in reality.
My source is the Koran itself.

That beats any cum-stained source you could dig up through your boring and highly unreliable list of geocities-hosted websites.

Get off the internet. Find a book.

sad, lazy, Dawa reject

What your mother calls you is no business of mine.

[Abcdxxxx]

So the Koran claims there were Jews getting hugs from Muslims in JORDAN ?

That the average suicide bomber is THIRTEEN ?

Does the Koran give you license to MAKE SHIT UP ?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

So the Koran claims there were Jews getting hugs from Muslims in JORDAN ?
And blowjobs, too.
That the average suicide bomber is THIRTEEN ?
Sky News and Al Jazeera have stated. When suicide bombers line up in Al Manar to say their little speech before they blow the shit out of themselves, the age always happens to be around 13. Always. They're kids, who after going through what they've been through, aren't in their right minds to think about 'right' from 'wrong.' Kids are easily brainwashed, but people are easily brainwashed as well. Even if the average age is 20 (which I still don't think it's true,) that still doesn't make them old enough to understand. They're easily influenced and controlled, especially by the sweet-talking leaders of Hamas and other terrorist organizations who make it seem like it's the perfect thing to do. Get this through your head or perhaps get a gun to help you make a hole for this simple idea. It's fucking common sense.
Does the Koran give you license to MAKE SHIT UP ?
Why don't you read it and find out what it's all about?

Oh, right.

The Internet already does that for you.

[Abcdxxxx]

Stop theorizing and SOURCE YOUR FUCKING INFORMATION. You like being petty, so play by your own rules. The indoctrinization is unquestionable, and it's flat out child abuse, but what can one say to a brainwashed adult ? I ask myself that every time I respond to one of your posts! Maybe if assholes like you stopped the dissemination of lies... like how an Israeli raped and killed a woman in front of her child...we wouldn't have this fucking problem. Don't come on here and make shit up...and stop disregarding 21 year old Palestinian MEN and WOMEN like they're 13 year old children.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Don't come on here and make shit up...and stop disregarding 21 year old Palestinian MEN and WOMEN like they're 13 year old children.
I didn't say they were like 13 year olds. I said 20 is still not old enough to know right from wrong IF you've grown up in that environment. We are talking about people who receive no formal education and aren't engaged in anything but what Hamas wants to put them through.

Again, this is common sense. I'm not talking about taking your average 20 year old and putting him in that position and expecting him to know it's wrong. These people don't know it's wrong because no one is telling them it's wrong, simple as that.

Weren't you the one who dismissed me for being a 'teen'? I'm 19 years old. That doesn't make me a man, then? 'Cause you called me a "kid." So, by your definition, these people are still "kids" who don't know what they're doing.

Don't ask me to site my sources if you haven't done that responsibly yourself. It is common knowledge (to anyone but lazy fucks like you) that the Internet is not your most reliable source for research, I'm not interested in your shitty links. I WAS interested in what you think, but obviously, I no longer am, because halfway through this thread most of us saw right through you: A self-righteous moron who won't stop whining incessantly about things he clearly lacks knowledge in.

I'm willing to put this to an end. You won't get anywhere. Not with your attitude, not with your stupidity. I'm just glad that I'm not the only one here who finds you utterly boring and ill-informed, to the point where you start slapping irrelevent shit in a poorly written post and call it an "argument" just for the sake of coming off as a "winner" here.

Who are you trying to prove yourself to? To give others the illusion that you're mr. smartypants? Your posts are just random ramblings of an assclown.

But, go ahead, keep trying. Who knows? It might be fun for one or both of us.
Maybe if assholes like you stopped the dissemination of lies... like how an Israeli raped and killed a woman in front of her child...we wouldn't have this fucking problem
See, herein lies your sick problem.

A few Muslims seemed to believe this is what happened, perhaps this is what was written in an unofficial Arab newsletter, and you assume that all Arabs pass these off as facts. That we all have the same mentality, and you only do this because you're not close to being smart enough to come up with a better conclusion. You think we are involved in this, collectively and inevitably (we're too dumb to think for ourselves, hi-ho). This childish behavior just speaks volumes of who you are and your absurd mentality, there's NO WAY I can carry this conversation with you because you just keep sinking lower, and hilarity ensues when you think you're being clever about it.

Save it. I'm already bored with your rebuttal to come.

[Abcdxxxx]

This isn't a popularity contest.

You said suicide bombers were 13 year old young children...and now you say it doesn't matter that they're older then you are. It means you're making excuses for grown fucking men. A huge percentage of Palestinians achieve higher learning degrees, so stop talking about Palestinians as being less capable to use whatever reasonable thought we both use to avoid killing people in the name of our scriptures.

Don't come to debate with "I think I heard it on Al Jazeera, or my religious school told me that". You have no interest in facts, if you think they're interchangeable, and when questioned, you won't back them up. You're talking about how great Al-Banna was for Jews in Jordan, and then tell me I don't know what *I'm* talking about? Al-Banna was a anti-semite, that inspired the likes of Hamas and possibly even Hitler. There were never Jewish citizens of Jordan, running happy. You presented an argument based on disinformation and now you're bitch fighting instead of backing it up. Everytime I ask you to back your shit up YOU CHOKE!

You're right, not every Muslim uses the same tired old libels or apologetic, rationalizing, moral equivalency. SO WHY DID YOU?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

It means you're making excuses for grown fucking men.
Do you really expect yourself to be a fully grown gentleman by 20 if you were growing up amidst violence?

A lot of 20 year olds think and act like fucking kids. I don't know how old you are, but you don't seem so "grown" to me. Age doesn't play a role in this. Brainwashing is brainwashing. Don't act like these people are going to sit down and think logically and fairly if they've just seen their families being whiped out. Of course they're going to take action, of course they're going to follow other people's footsteps. They've been growing up thinking it's right.
You're right, not every Muslim uses the same tired old libels or apologetic, rationalizing, moral equivalency. SO WHY DID YOU?
To turn you on.

[Abcdxxxx]

http://rkhanna.fileburst.com/DONTRUN.gif

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

What is this, grade school? You read like an unfed angry child. This isn't about winning or losing. It's a debate that meandered off its original subject thanks to your utter stupidity and lack of respect for others.

[Sethomas]

Instead of reading this entire waste of bandwidth, I'm just going to ask Letter Boy again:

What entitles the modern Jews to the homeland of Israel?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Instead of reading this entire waste of bandwidth, I'm just going to ask Letter Boy again:
Everything you need to know is in the first few pages of this thread, the rest is Letter Boy denying his mistakes and basically people repeating themselves over and over again because he purposefully misunderstood everything they've said so he wouldn't come off as stupid as he evidently is.

The fact that all he cares about is who gets to clench their buttcheeks in victory at the end of a discussion should say a lot about him, really.
What entitles the modern Jews to the homeland of Israel?[/
wtf most of them were born in the region!! they deserv it

[Kulturkampf]

Instead of reading this entire waste of bandwidth, I'm just going to ask Letter Boy again:

What entitles the modern Jews to the homeland of Israel?

The UN Declaration of Human Rights note that everyone is entitled to a homeland.

What entitles them to Israel?

It is the origin of their ethnic group and their religion (depending on how you view it).

Does it mean they have a right to a monopoly on political rights?

I don't think so, actually. I think it should be a democracy with no special rights granted to anyone.

But if I had a choice between the Jews running things and the Palestinians, who would I choose? Backwards tribalist Islamists or a group of people that tend to have good education and upbringing?

BTW< I know it is extreme to call Palestinians backwards tribalist Islamists, but I do not know how else to describe people that parade their children around in mock suicide bomber outfits.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

What entitles the modern Jews to the homeland of Israel?


I know I'm not "letter boy," but I'd like to answer this nonetheless.

I think you could make a fine argument that the product Israel has produced entitles Israelis to Israel.

Even during the country's start, the UNSCOMP resolution, Israelis proved a greater desire to modernize, democratize, and liberalize the Middle East. While Israel tried to win approval to claim a slice of the mandated land, by building infrastructure, sustainable cities in the desert, and industry, Arabs were plotting for war. Tanks began to roll as soon as Israel became Israel.

Both sides have developed a strong nationalistic impulse, but one actually did something about it, IMO.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

BTW< I know it is extreme to call Palestinians backwards tribalist Islamists, but I do not know how else to describe people that parade their children around in mock suicide bomber outfits.

You know what? As painful as it is for me to admit, you are absolutely right. Now, I'm not saying Israel deserves the land and the Palestinians should fuck off elsewhere, nor am I agreeing with you that most of the Palestinians fit that generalization, but I think Israel should be proud of its accomplishments.

And you know what else?

The average attitude (of Arabs) towards Israel being the most successful state in the Middle East will never change. As much as they are blamed for all the problems caused in this region, they should pride themselves on how far they've come as a nation. They did it because they worked together as a tightly-knit community. And look at us. Shiites and Sunnis in constant battles, street kids or spoiled rich ones who refuse to further themselves through proper education, and lack of hope for a region we all want to see move forward.

I'm just saying that if Palestine had the same amount of financial assistance that Israel did, and less amount of stupid fucking Hamas supporters who have the "let's solve violence by creating more violence" mentality, Palestine would've been someplace else.

I think you could make a fine argument that the product Israel has produced entitles Israelis to Israel.

Even during the country's start, the UNSCOMP resolution, Israelis proved a greater desire to modernize, democratize, and liberalize the Middle East. While Israel tried to win approval to claim a slice of the mandated land, by building infrastructure, sustainable cities in the desert, and industry, Arabs were plotting for war. Tanks began to roll as soon as Israel became Israel.

Both sides have developed a strong nationalistic impulse, but one actually did something about it, IMO.
That's way better than how "Letter Boy" would've put it, anyways. That last sentence is so fucking true.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I just wanted to take this opportunity to say that yes.

We are jealous.

Of their brilliant fucking leadership. They've come this far because their leaders cared for their citizens, who were all willing to work together knowing it's for their own survival and good.

And look at us. Look up our leaders.

Sickly old men who care about nothing but their power, wealth, and relationship with the US.

Don't blame Islam and don't blame Arabs as a whole. We are capable of a lot if we were given the chance, if we could further ourselves without having any consequences and limits from our governments perhaps we could've climbed higher, faster. Instead we're going through the political and social changes that we could've gone through 30 years ago, when Israel was building itself twice as fast. I'm in awe of their constant progress, and honestly? I hope they keep it up.

Maybe after we've seen the outcome of this we'll have something to fucking learn.

[Abcdxxxx]

What entitles anyone to any land?

Why is the argument even about entitlement? Israel is literally the only Middle Eastern nation where a million non-Jews reside in peace alongside 5 million Jews. Druze, Kurds, Muslims, all protected by a secular government. There is no other land in which Jews have stronger ties, not Biblically, but historically as a soveriegn nation prior to becoming a diaspora. Jews lived under British occupation, and had the right to self determination, like any other nation.

There were displaced Palestinian Arabs as a result, but as Israel's current demographic shows, Arabs were welcomed to stay and build Israel. There was also a Jewish refugee problem through out the entire world, and Israel was the only option available to all of them.

Israel's story, for all it's romanticism has also shown results.....
Israel now has the highest average living standard in the middle east. They're the only liberal democracy in the region. For the size of their population, they are the largest immigrant absorbing nation in the World. They continue projects to air rescue communities at risk to this day. They elected the worlds second Female leader in modern times.

Culturally, They have more museums per capita then anyone, and their second in producing books. Economically, Per capita they have more bio tech startups, and they're second on the list of venture capital funds behind the US. Israel has the highest ration of university degrees to the population, with the highest number of patents filed, and scientific papers written, per capita in the world.
Contrbutions to the world include the cell phone, most of the Windows XT, and XP systems, production of Pentium microprocessors, instant messaging, the first no radiation diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer, digital thermometers, organic produce exports, their rescue teams are some of the best, and first on-site during disasters......

[Abcdxxxx]

By the way, the proper question should be "What entitles any land to be Jewish Free ?"

[kahljorn]

More like, "how can I make my posts a little more anal?"

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

More like, "how can I make my posts a little more anal?"
hey watch it

this guy's been studying this shit for decades if not centuries

i think an apology would be in order

am i making myself clear

stupid koran-humpin' jizzface

dont bother responding cuz i checked my sources on google and i totally won this argument