How bad is the Hammas victory?

[mburbank]

'Cause it seems pretty damn bad to me, bordering on catastrophic. Now the only missing ingredient for a total meltdown is Netanyahu.

[Cosmo Electrolux]

another excuse for Israel and the US....like they needed an excuse.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I think you're asking the wrong question.

If Hamas is willing to disarm (not gonna happen), stop attacking Israel, and enter strictly the realm of politics, then it could be workable.

It does the Palestinians no good to have a political party with an armed wing, simultaneously undermining their security forces, attacking Israel.

[Geggy]

Is it true that Hamas is working for Israel? Just what I heard, is all.

[mburbank]

uhmmm..... no.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Is it true that Hamas is working for Israel? Just what I heard, is all.

Donnie, please.

[ziggytrix]

It does the Palestinians no good to have a political party with an armed wing, simultaneously undermining their security forces, attacking Israel.

How is "having arms" different than "having an army" and is there any way Hamas could transition between those two states without completely disarming?

Asking them to cease attacks Israel is a no-brainer, but at the same time they're gonna need Israel to cease air strikes on "suspected terrorist" hideouts, especially if those terrorists are now supposed to be legitimate leaders.

There's gotta be give and take from both sides.

[Riggo44]

All the surrounding Arabic countries are gonna hate Isreal till the end of time unfortunately. As far as Palestine you can include most of those people as well considering they believe the state of Isreal is on their land.....

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Thanks, Riggo.

Ziggy, to my understanding, they already have an army. To have an armed Hamas only contradicts the military/policing efforts of the state, IMO.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Hamas celebrates election win with sweets, gunfire (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L26491070.htm)

:(

""Mohammad Deif should be our defence minister," screamed one Hamas supporter from a car window, referring to the Hamas military leader who tops Israel's wanted list.

Eighteen-year-old Saleh Ahmed said: "It is our time to take the lead now. Those who paid with their blood to defend their people, will do their best to serve them.""

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I think you're asking the wrong question.

If Hamas is willing to disarm (not gonna happen), stop attacking Israel, and enter strictly the realm of politics, then it could be workable.

It does the Palestinians no good to have a political party with an armed wing, simultaneously undermining their security forces, attacking Israel.
I agree. I think it's wrong to have such a political party represent an entire country. Now instead of calling a minority of Palestinians "terrorists," Palestine will be defined as "home of the terrorist nation."

Hamas are willing to work as hard and as fast as they can to stir up more shit and rile Israel up. This will not make the US happy. And we all know what happens when the US is not only unhappy, but ignored and eventually threatened.

The US has a lot on its plate right now. That's 2 extremely controversial political groups leading 2 countries (Palestine and Iran) that might get the US in trouble in terms of the reputation it might get from outsiders, such as the case with Iraq. This is where it gets tricky.

If the US really wants to be safe at this point, it would speak softly and carry a big stick, as the saying goes.

[Geggy]

Just checking. I wasn't sure if he was working for Israel to trick the Plaestinians into gteting pumped up and ready to fight Israel without a chance in hell of winning or that Hamas is just fucking suicidal.

It's unfortunate the US troops are caught in the middle of lovers' quarrel while thyre already in Iraq. Now it looks they will have to protect Israel with their army. (Why am I getting the feeling that Israel owns US?)

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/index.html
Nice knowing you, Palestine. :(

Edit: link fixed.

[ItalianStereotype]

Riggo! as one of the greatest intellectual minds of our generation, what is your opinion on the "the sky is blue" issue?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

All the surrounding Arabic countries are gonna hate Isreal till the end of time unfortunately.
At least we no longer boycott Israeli products. That's one step forward.

[Abcdxxxx]

It's near impossible to live in this century and boycott Israeli products. Kleenex anyone? Vaccination for bird flue? Instant Messaging?


Well at least now we know the majority of Palestinians really want peace. The upside is the argument that without the corruption of Fatah, there could be some progress. The downside is if you're a liberal, gay, feminist or religious moderate Palestinian, life just got that much worse. Fatah were no different, in their goals or track record. This is just a replay of the legitamization of Arafat & Fatah - only this time a lot more people are informed, and aware of how problematic this is. (Fatah had a candidate running who went by the nickname "Hitler" by the way). At least in this case, it sounds like Hamas won the democratic way.

On a side note, a couple days before the elections, Netenyahu said he would continue to make "comprimise", and likely return land.

geggy - Not to wind you up, but Hamas started as a social organization, and at one point did receive assistance from Israel for a short time,(as have literally EVERY other Palestinian organization) in hopes they could support what they hoped would be moderate Palestinians. This was back in the 80's when Socialists were pushing for negotiations of some sort. That was one of the experiments they tried. It was a mistake.

[kahljorn]

IT'S AN EXPERIMENT GONE WRONG OH NO WHO WILL STOP DR. EVILSTEEN?

[El Blanco]

Hamas has legitamacy now. Which comes with a price.

Now, their leaders can't hide in residential neigborhoods while sending out their suicide bombers. They need to be a very public, central location in order to perform the jobs of a government.

This means, Israel just needs to look one place with a lot more certainty that the target will be there with a big drop off in civilian casualties.

[ziggytrix]

A downside being a tactical strike on a terrorist leader is understandable, while a tactical strike on an elected official is more like an act of war. It's just semantics, but still.

[El Blanco]

Well, if that government just sent a suicide bomber to wax a few dozen of your civilians, I'm pretty sure the war has already started.

[ScruU2wice]

It's near impossible to live in this century and boycott Israeli products. Kleenex anyone? Vaccination for bird flue? Instant Messaging?

Don't forget the media and the banks.

:jewishconspiracy

[Abcdxxxx]

That's right Scru. We can control your mind through Seinfeld DVD boxsets and Ralph Lauren jeans.

Fatah party sponsored plenty of terrorist attacks through Al Aksa Martyrs. Fatah has also allowed Hamas operatives to shoot rockets into Israel on a daily basis, since taking Gaza.

I doubt Hamas will stop, so will these attacks finally be perceived as State sponsored acts of war? Palestine still isn't an official state, but I would agree that Israel's targeted killings would be considered an act of war.... or more probable, a soveriegn nation excercising it's right to self defense, through retaliation.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

We can control your mind through Seinfeld DVD boxsets and Ralph Lauren jeans.
This guy's like a one-man show. He makes us all laugh.
Fatah party sponsored plenty of terrorist attacks through Al Aksa Martyrs
He knows his shit, too. He must've been studying it for decades.

Anyways. According to the "headlines" on Yahoo: "Hamas election victory shocks world".... and I wonder, how can anyone who pays attention in the least to world politics, be shocked at all?

In fact, it seems to make a lot of sense to me that Hamas would win.

I mean, does "the world" think the Islamic world can continue to politically take it up the ass forever?

Between warring ideologies, there is really no end in sight. What surprises me is how Palestine and Israel haven't managed to completely obilterate each other altogether.... and how rational people would desire to get involved in such a conflict.

[ziggytrix]

I guess it all hinges on who blows up who next. First one to strike gets the dirty label thrown on em.

It's like the Haskells and the McCoy's. Y'all been a-feudin as long as y'all can remember.

And the REALLY retarded part is that if you ask either side, it's ALL the other side's fault.

[Big Papa Goat]

Now that you mention it, palestinians recognizing Israels right to exist and negotiating with them is pretty much impossible to comprehend.

[Abcdxxxx]

"desire to get involved" ? This conflict was thrust on them. Jews have always been in the Middle East. The real question is who wants to co-exist.


You have to be a total bozo to apply the tired old feud analogy to what's happening.

[Abcdxxxx]

In fact, it seems to make a lot of sense to me that Hamas would win.

I mean, does "the world" think the Islamic world can continue to politically take it up the ass forever?

Care to elaborate? Palestinian Arabs have been victimized by the Islamic world as much as by anybody.

[Geggy]

Media says it's terrorism when Palestine do it. Media says it's not terrorism when Israel do it.

Abcdxx, the article I read about hamas's past did mentioned the fact he received financial aid from Israel in the past. It also claimed they never had a falling out. Wasn't sure if it was true or just a blatant lie. Alex Jones :rolleyes

[ziggytrix]

You have to be a total bozo to apply the tired old feud analogy to what's happening.

keep tellin yourself that.

This conflict was thrust on them.

yes, that certainly is their side of things. a neutral observer would probably say that's an oversimplified and unrealistic view of history, but with a steady diet of the right propaganda you can believe almost anything.

[Abcdxxxx]

Holy shit ZIggy, you have the sophistication of an aged Ranxer. The majority of Israel's population were born in the region. You can substantiate yourself, but you won't.

Speaking of Ranxer types...

Geggy, Alex Jones is some militia sympathiser idiot, and the worst source on anything vaguely connected to Jews. What I'm sure he doesn't explain, is that it was illegal at the time to negotiate with the PLO. Leftists were trying to push their hand, by funding opposition groups (as history tells us, it's a bad strategy for the Western World, eh?) who would provide aid within their own communities. They were looking for somone to represent moderate Palestinian policies. Leftists also wanted to provide relief aid to Palestinians, and the other options were worse, at the time. Hamas was not a political organization back then. They came out of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is the source of most of these groups, good and bad. Israel has always had the policy of double dealing with enemies (such as Iran), and as the Knesset is filled with various feuding Ideologies (including Arabs) who have different phillosophies on how to approach issues. Thats why Israel armed and trained troops for the Palestinian Authority (who arms their enemy without a cease fire!?), that's why Barghoutti, the convicted, and imprisoned leader of Fatah party was allowed to give a political address supporting his party in elections, while in Jail last week. Israel hasn't had contact with Hamas since the 80's and the air strikes which killed Rantisi and Yassir were VERY real. Now I'm being up front with you even though I know you're insane enough to take this to be a concession of some Zionist conspiracy controlling the world.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

And the REALLY retarded part is that if you ask either side, it's ALL the other side's fault.

ABC's implying that.

Let's all watch him try to deny it. :)

[Abcdxxxx]

No I'm still waiting for you to elaborate on how victimized Muslims are by "the world".

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

No I'm still waiting for you to elaborate on how victimized Muslims are by "the world".
You REALLY haven't been reading what I've been writing in previous posts if that is what you think I said.

You intentionally misinterpreting text is not shocking at all, though.

[Abcdxxxx]

Do you talk about anything else besides MISINTERPRETATIONS or is that your excuse for everything? I qouted you direct, and I'll quote you again....


In fact, it seems to make a lot of sense to me that Hamas would win.

I mean, does "the world" think the Islamic world can continue to politically take it up the ass forever?

Aww cute. Those genocidal maniacs brag about Al-Banna almost as much as you do, by the way. Yeah so, let's forget "the world" for a minute, and let's talk about Arafat's Palestinian cruxifictions, Saudi Arabia, and others revoking citzenship of all Palestinians, Egypt refusing to take in refugees, and demanding Israel remove the housing they built for them. Let's talk about the largest death tolls of Palestinian Arabs have been at the hands of other Arabs. So if by "world" you mean, their own people...then sure, run your fat lip some more.

Fuck moral equivalency.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Do you talk about anything else besides MISINTERPRETATIONS I qouted you direct, and I'll quote you again....

With you? No. Because that's pretty much the only thing you're good at. I'm obviously not the only one who has this problem with you. You like to put things in people's mouths, and then write up a post that's designed to have as many boots aimed at your head as possible, and then claim to be "challenging their opinions."

With WHAT?

You're fucking sad. Certainly life has more to offer you than this witless existence.

or is that your excuse for everything?
Unlike your "it's 5 AM and I'm tired", it's not an excuse. It's a fact that you have to wake up to: You don't make sense because your posts are brimming with the bullshit that you've piled up in your abnormally small head from the Internet.
Aww cute. Those genocidal maniacs brag about Al-Banna almost as much as you do, by the way.
Where did I brag about him? I mentioned him in a post. That's not 'bragging,' that's called making a point - something you don't know how to do without relying on skewed material. You didn't get the reference I made to him, meaning you hardly know anything about the guy. Googling him won't do, you little shit.

Let's talk about the largest death tolls of Palestinian Arabs have been at the hands of other Arabs. So if by "world" you mean, their own people...then sure, run your fat lip some more.

:rolleyes

Were you asleep when I said that the West is merely a bystander in all of this? WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE, SWEETNESS.

Fuck moral equivalency

Whoa, there. Big words for such a small man.

[Abcdxxxx]

Get off my dick, and say something to the point. Agree with me or explain why you don't, but stop prattling on about ME. I'm not your boyfriend. Get over it fanboy. Respond to what I'm saying, and not how I'm saying it. Do you even have that ability? I'm sorry you can't keep up. I speak to larger points, because your shit bores me. I've had these conversations a billion times, and you're not funny, you ain't clever, and you sure as hell aren't informed. You're lucky this isn't the Gong Show or this shit would be sounding like the time Rerun tried to bootleg the Doobie Brothers.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I'm not your boyfriend.
aw
and you're not funny
aw
you ain't clever
aw
and you sure as hell aren't informed.
aw
You're lucky this isn't the Gong Show or this shit would be sounding like the time Rerun tried to bootleg the Doobie Brothers.
Your juvenile sniping is getting more and more girly.
I speak to larger points, because your shit bores me.
I see the likes of you week in, week out. The kind of people who don't have a way of expressing themselves in a cogent, reasoned manner, so resort to the kind of backward mudslinging you seem to love so much.

But no end of spurious, irrelevant posturing will ever stop you having to face up to who you are and what you've become.

Good luck anyhow.

[Geggy]

Geggy, Alex Jones is some militia sympathiser idiot, and the worst source on anything vaguely connected to Jews.

For this I agree with you...he's all in it for the dollar. Just another typical american entertainer who is a money grubbing chiseler....just like me! :)

[KevinTheOmnivore]

a neutral observer would probably say that's an oversimplified and unrealistic view of history, but with a steady diet of the right propaganda you can believe almost anything.

What might that neutral observer say about the situation?

[ziggytrix]

Holy shit ZIggy, you have the sophistication of an aged Ranxer. The majority of Israel's population were born in the region. You can substantiate yourself, but you won't.

And the majority of Palenstenians were born in, what, Quebec???

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Many were probably born in Jordan, as well as other places. But that's not really the point.

You never really hear anybody question whether or not Palestinians are from palestine. Most of the time, the argument is presented as an occupier versus the occupied. Jews, maybe from Europe or Russia, decided they wanted some beach front property and thought a slice on the Mediterranean would be nice. I think it's that perspective that makes people remind us that Jews have always been there, and were in fact all over the Middle East.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Many were probably born in Jordan, as well as other places.
That's still in the "region" he's speaking of. So the point he's trying to make is neither here nor there.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Jordan is its own distinct country (in fact, initially intended to be the Palestinian state, no?).

I know anecdotal stuff is lame, but i had a buddy in college who was born in Jordan. He had family in Jordan, yet he described himself as Palestinian. I think you see a lot of this, particularly in the West Bank, which is why it's unfair to question the geography of Jews in Israel, IMO.

[ziggytrix]

a neutral observer would probably say that's an oversimplified and unrealistic view of history, but with a steady diet of the right propaganda you can believe almost anything.

What might that neutral observer say about the situation?

shit, sorry i missed that.

i doubt a neutral observer would say "poor Israel, they have been blameless and thrust into this terrible situation despite having ever done anything to escalate it."

but i don't really know that - i'm certainly no expert and i won't pretend to be able to read the minds of political leaders. i saw a great PBS special where they had cameras at a meeting between palestinian and israeli big wigs filmed right around the time Arafat was under house arrest in his compound. it was fairly enlightening, fairly neutral (in my opinion), and i got the impression that the current powers that be on BOTH sides over there aren't as interested in peace as they are in making sure they get a better deal than the other guy.


but back off-subject, what's really wierd to me is that ABC brought up the whole geography of the jews point at all, as though it had ANYTHING to do with what I was talking about. my stupid feud analogy is only STRENGTHED by the fact that both these groups have been in the middle east as long as either of them can remember.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I know anecdotal stuff is lame, but i had a buddy in college who was born in Jordan. He had family in Jordan, yet he described himself as Palestinian.
That's their identity, you can never expect them to be stripped away from it. Bahrain has a lot of Palestinians who were born in Bahrain, own Bahraini passports, and have never been to Palestine, yet they pride themselves on being Palestinians. A lot of our high school teachers and university professors come from Iraq and Palestine, and have been living in Bahrain in order to escape the madness. Even if they're married to Bahrainis and have spent enough time in Bahrain to consider themselves citizens of the country, they'll say "I'm an Iraqi" or "I'm a Palestinian" whenever asked.

[ziggytrix]

Nationalism is for faggots.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

You should read some of Adeed Dawisha's articles and books about Arab Nationalism in the 20th century, it's very fascinating.

[Abcdxxxx]

There were posts made suggesting that Jews got involved out of choice. That their motivation was a seperatist one...or just trying to be better then the other man.

The reality is that the majority of Israel's population houses refuseniks, native sabras, and indigenous North Africans born to the land. They didn't "get involved', they were born with enemies by the sheer fact that they were born Jewish. A great number of these people couldn't gain citizenship anywhere else. That's not a conscious will to feud for no reason, that's trying to co-exist and survive. What was unintentionally inferred is the tired old "Jews are occupiers, and collinized the region" argument followed by "Zionists aren't even really the same Jews who were there in 650CE".

More then half of Jordan is Palestinian, and up until the late 70's few if any Arabs had a Palestinian identity, as Palestine was only a territory. The movement for their nationalism applies a double standard. The majority of their leadership are Egyptian, for example. When the Popular Liberation Front became the Palestinian Liberation Organization, it was probably a gesture they wanted to get involved. Aside from Israel's hilltop youth (which is a tiny recent phenomenon) I can't think of a worse way to describe Israelis then "they wanted to get involved".

[ziggytrix]

They didn't "get involved', they were born with enemies by the sheer fact that they were born Jewish.

Yeah, and a couple of Hatfields didn't really wanna fight the McCoy's but then a McCoy shot their big brother, and well, they HAVE to defend themselves against these sorts of actions.

It's a fucking vicious circle with the only constant being a bullet or a bomb at the focal center. Any notion of 'blame' falls squarely on the guy pulling the trigger or pushing the button - not his brother, not his cousin, not even his dead great-great-great-grandfather. I am fully aware that you disagree, but that doesn't change my beliefs one bit. I'm sorry that's the way it is, I really am. :(

[Abcdxxxx]

I can't think of a less apt description of the conflict then "they don't even know why they're fighting anymore".

You just need to put it in simplified terms so you can wrap your head around it, and come to a conclusion that feels impartial, with equal blame. Gumdrops for you, but that's just you acknowledging you really don't grasp the situation, and throwing your hands up.

[ziggytrix]

No, that's me providing another uselessly oversimplified alternative to the uselessly oversimplified "it's all their fault".

That's not me throwing my hands up, inasmuch as that's me saying if God were real, He'd smite down every single asshole who killed in His name.

[Abcdxxxx]

That's great, but since you like to distribute equal fault, what reasoning have you come up with for Israel? They're not holding up the Old Testament before going out on targeted killing missions. It's a secular nation.

[Kulturkampf]

I think we should work Hamas from this angle:
http://www.smolanim.com/images/soldier.jpg

Palestinian groups like Hamas dress their kids in suicide bomber outfits and march them around as future pawns of their war against the Jewish people; I think it is disgusting and we should destroy Hamas, destroy the al-Aqsa martyrs brigade, and we should bring to justice everyone respnsible for these suicide attacks against the Israeli people.

Palestinian Apologists suck.

Any flamingo that is truly pink knows they are the enemy.

[Chojin]

Talked with a friend of mine whose mother is first-generation Israeli about the issue. Here's what he had to say:

33:47 Chojin: what do you think about hamas winning the palestinian election
34:00 Stovakhor: Honestly, I think its great for Israel
34:06 Chojin: why's that
34:09 Stovakhor: If you'd like, I'd be happy to explain why
34:13 Chojin: sure
34:36 Stovakhor: Hamas won't recognize Israel's right to exist
35:03 Stovakhor: So Israel has a clear, undebateable case for not negotiating. Since Hamas cannot accept any peace agreement since they don't recognize Israel
35:17 Stovakhor: that makes it easy for israel to continue Unilateral withdrawl.
35:40 Chojin: withdrawl?
35:56 Stovakhor: Its a free pass to do whatever they want, so long as they withdraw from the land. The palestinians essentially have given up the ability to negotiate border arrangements
36:15 Stovakhor: Israel has been pulling out of palestian land for several months
36:51 Stovakhor: but htey've been doing it without any kind of agreement, so the PA (palestian authority) has been upset because they haven't aggreed to the terms or the border Israel has been setting up
37:25 Stovakhor: With Hamas in power, there's no more negotiating of any kind. And Israel has a great reason to work outside of any agreement, unilaterally
37:31 Chojin: so how can israel pull out in a palestinian's view if they don't exist as a nation
37:58 Stovakhor: They recognize that israel exists, but not htat they have a RIGHT to exist.
38:14 Stovakhor: They believe Israel the country is illegal, and thus should be destroyd
38:27 Chojin: well my point is, anything short of moving out of the middle east isn't going to be seen as withdrawal
38:47 Stovakhor: Its a withdrawl, but not a "complete" withdrawl
39:15 Stovakhor: plus, if hamas engages in Terrorism, Israel's position becomes really strong
39:36 Stovakhor: Since the ruling party sponsoring terrorism. It's like the Taliban in afghanistan
40:18 Stovakhor: Which means, either a) Hamas no longer overtly supports terrorism, which is good. Or b) they do, and Israel gets to really do whatever it wants
41:06 Stovakhor: The only real downside that I see is that there is absolutely no hope, really, for Israel to get a peace agreement anymore
41:23 Stovakhor: but that isn't really that bad, becuase what were the odds of that anyway?
42:08 Stovakhor: I think this is fantastic from Israel's POV. Which is completely counterintuitive, and against what all the media is saying. But really, the media was surprised Hamas won, so it shows how little they know.
43:11 Chojin: So in the case of all-out war between israel and palestine, what happens
43:46 Stovakhor: Palestine ends.
43:51 Stovakhor: Realistically speaking.
44:04 Stovakhor: It would be a VERY fast war.
44:26 Chojin: in the short term, yeah, but what about iran and treaties palestine/iran might have?
44:33 Stovakhor: Even then.
44:53 Stovakhor: Israel's army is so advanced, full war isn't that big a threat anymore
45:03 Stovakhor: China is staying out of it
45:25 Stovakhor: Although, they more or less condone Iran's actions, since htey need the oil
45:38 Stovakhor: It's unlikely they would step in on either side

[Kulturkampf]

A famous person once said, but I am not sure who.... said something like:

"Peace is the period of time that you use to prepare for the next war."

It is true.

Fuck peace agreements -- let's beat them in the war, and then prepare for the next group of enemies we'll have to fight.

[Chojin]

PROCEED TO LEVEL 7-2

[Emu]

"Fuck peace agreements -- let's beat them in the war, and then prepare for the next group of enemies we'll have to fight."

Wait. You say that, and you called ME a fucking fascist?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

44:53 Stovakhor: Israel's army is so advanced, full war isn't that big a threat anymore

This is the end of Palestine as we know it.

I really do hope that your friend is proven wrong. That's just a lot of fucking blood.

[Chojin]

From what I understand of the issues (which is admittedly as limited as our resident nazis) a lot of Palestinians are just so far gone in their hateful craze that it doesn't leave a lot of options on the table for avoiding genocide. Our country isn't too far behind, either, but then again we don't have an entire nation of homosexuals next door to harass.

I hope Hamas can grow up and bargain, I really do. I would take no joy in watching Israel roll over them.

[Abcdxxxx]

Israeli's are funny. What she forgets is there are a lot of people like Ziggy stuck in 1993 who didn't get the supposedly clear message a HAMAS victory sends. Israeli's use that line of positive thinking for everything... "now we can REALLY defend ourselves"...and it never happens. They just slowly make more concenssions.

Israel doesn't want to wipe out Palestinians. A good portion of the country have Palestinian friends, or coworkers. You just have to remember that for years, the Pro-Israel contigent has been claiming Palestinians don't want peace, they want genocide against Jews.... and so now there's less of a charade left. There ARE Palestinians who want peace...but they were never in the PA government, and will never come from any of the PLO derivative organizations.

It's stories like this that are truly horrifying.

SUICIDE BOMBERS MOTHER ELECTED TO PALESTINIAN PARLIAMENT

GAZA, Jan. 26, 2006 — - Mariam Farahat, who was elected to the Palestinian parliament, can work a crowd like a veteran politician -- shaking hands and greeting supporters. When she gets on the stage at a Hamas rally, she is the star attraction. She was one of Hamas' most popular candidates in Wednesday's election.

In Gaza, Farahat is known as Um Nidal, or Mother of the Struggle -- a mother who sent three of her six sons on Hamas suicide missions against Israeli targets

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/print?id=1536576



On a up note, I'm pretty sure HITLER WON IN JENIN. Now I know Arafat said Jenin doesn't exist anymore, but Jamal Mohammad Mahmoud Abu al-Rob aka Hitler won a seat for Fatah party there. Fatah were the moderates right?

[Kulturkampf]

From what I understand of the issues (which is admittedly as limited as our resident nazis) a lot of Palestinians are just so far gone in their hateful craze that it doesn't leave a lot of options on the table for avoiding genocide. Our country isn't too far behind, either, but then again we don't have an entire nation of homosexuals next door to harass.

I hope Hamas can grow up and bargain, I really do. I would take no joy in watching Israel roll over them.

I am not a Nazi. Why would yuo say that?

Because I am more conservative than yuo and don't like my arguments?

It is libel.

[Chojin]

Does this mean I can change your title to 'Resident Nazi', as you apparently answer to that now?

[Pharaoh]

You hippies would have to be forced to go and fight the real Nazis if Hitler was around today. And even then you'd be totally useless.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

You hippies would have to be forced to go and fight the real Nazis if Hitler was around today. And even then you'd be totally useless.
wow this is so frightengly true

there's vomit on my shoes already

mom's spaghetti

[Slinky Ferret]

Although I don't know nearly enough about this subject to fully understand it all I agree with the views of Abcdxxxx.

I've read many different articles and information on this situation and I think at the end of the day its about two nations of people, the fair majority of whom can live side by side in peace. I understand the Palestinians' need to protect themselves. But I really think there is a big difference between killing soldiers and intentionally killing civilians.

As for I, fuzzbot. Sorry hon, but I think you're being a bit OTT and hostile towards Abcdxxxx. Not sure why, maybe this is a thorny issue for you.

The world as we know it is changing rapidly, I get the feeling there are going to be some difficult times ahead and I'd like permission to be scared!

[Abcdxxxx]

Meanwhile, Hamas take power, and a week later....

Jan 31 -- Olmert administration uses Israeli army to violently attack and expel thousands of Jewish men, women, and children from their homes near Hebron. Close to 200 injured in the attack, including some serious injuries to children. Citizens block roads in Jerusalem in protest. Riots are expected throughout the country.

[ziggytrix]

uh, why is the Israeli acting Prime Minister having the army attack their own people?

[Big Papa Goat]

because some settlers aren't happy about withdrawling? but I don't see why Israel is working at withdrawling from palestinian territories if the palestinians don't seem to care about peace talks anymore

although I think the point of the story may be that Israel is in fact still working at the peace process in spite of the belligerent new palestinian parliment

[Abcdxxxx]

The campaign strategy of the acting PM, Olmert, seems to be stuck on polarizing the community, to get the Leftists to the polls. This should have been a time of renewed unity, what with Hamas taking office.

The idea is to prove they still want peace, and will continue with the road map (even though they announced the road map was dead? huh!?) because Israel keeps it's end of a bargain. Way to empower the radicalists in Gaza!

So that means they're evicting 20,000 MORE Jews in the next couple weeks, even though the 9,000 refugees of Gaza are still homeless!! There are going to be HUGE protests, and huge underground resistance groups popping up. The subtext is that these are tinnny areas, filled with Jewish holy sites, (Hebron is second only to Jerusalem in importance) but they've been Arab dominated since Jews were driven out in the 20's. These are some of the most hostile areas for Jews to even try and live in. It's debateable what is an illegal outpost, or a legal settlement, but what is clear, is that these areas will be Jewish Free before elections.

The IDF were brutal today.

[ziggytrix]

Guess it goes to show the IDF is brutal no matter whose home they're bulldozing.

[Abcdxxxx]

I'm glad they're playing to the peanut gallery, so that even the most basic one dimensional clown can get the message then!! Even ZIggy gets it. Don't worry, moral equivalency is alive and well!

They intentionally pulled out all stops (I'm not sure they can get bulldozers into those areas or they'd do it) to show the Palestinian's weren't treated any worse then Israelis.....is it working yet? By all accounts, and short of bullets, the violence was unprecedented.

The latest - Olmert is talking about "the Jewish Hamas", and today they pulled the IDF after another clash where some Hilltop Youth stole a radio.

[ziggytrix]

Actually I don't get it. While not as bad as KikI, your writing is quite often very difficult to understand. Plus you seem to assume I follow Isreal's news more than casually. You are aware that these current events are not really getting much US media attention, right? I don't think Bush even said a word about Israel (other than saying Hamas best recognize) in his State of the Union.

So let's be clear. Are you saying the Jews in Gaza are a bunch of terrorists in the making? Is how they got there irrelevant? Is this violence primarily Settlers against IDF? Does "pulled the IDF" mean the army retreated cuz it was getting too violent? What makes you think they cannot get bulldozers out there? Does the IDF Bulldozer Brigade just not have the funds it did 2 years ago - no wait, they're disbanded aren't they? I guess it would be a lot cheaper to just go in and kick asses, huh?

The government of Israel has made plenty of mistakes which have contributed to the hatred and antisemitism in that region. If that's one-dimensional "moral equivalency" then fine, call me a one-dimensional moral equivalist! Oh boo hoo, whatever shall I do.

It seems to me however, that a blatant refusal to ever assign any fault to the Israeli government is a MUCH more one dimensional attitude. The refusal to entertain the thought that extremely violent police action might not be the most effective control is pretty one-dimensional. But whatever, I'm sure you have such a deeper understanding of human nature, as studied as you are on Middle Eastern affairs. IF you deign to answer any of my questions, oh great sage of all things Middle Eastern, could you please be sure to put it in terms the "peanut gallery" can understand. Maybe even proofread it before you post to make sure you are being clear and multidimensional? :rolleyes

[Abcdxxxx]

Seriously...why are you even entering the conversation, let alone acting like a patronizing douche, if you can't keep up?

"So let's be clear. Are you saying the Jews in Gaza are a bunch of terrorists in the making?"

There are no Israelis in Gaza. Olmert was talking about a group called the Hilltop Youth, who are a religious radical group, of fairly young kids, who might have watched Red Dawn one too many times. Israel's Kadima party (which includes Olmert) would like to paint all the settlers in the same light as these kids. We're not talking about Gaza anymore. Gaza is completely Palestinian controlled. Understand, there is a political climate in Israel where the secular have turned their backs on anything viewed as religious. Sharon, and now Olmert are capitilizing on that so they can carry out the expulsion of Jews from the disputed territories.


"Is how they got there irrelevant?"

Sure it's relevant. What are you really askin?

"Is this violence primarily Settlers against IDF? Does "pulled the IDF" mean the army retreated cuz it was getting too violent?"

Right, the IDF is attempting to evacuate Jews from small villages living in "outposts" which the government has deemed illegal. They're being met with resistance. From what I gather, the army retreated when one of their radios got swiped, and they lost tactical ground controlling the riots. You have to understand, the protest opposition they're facing comes from Israel's citizens, most of whom have undergone military training. The clash is between Jews. Arabs, and others continue to build "outposts" of their own in these towns, without recourse. I understand these stories aren't making it into US media...which is why I posted about it.

"What makes you think they cannot get bulldozers out there? "

The geography? We're talking tiny mountain regions, and narrow roads.

"Does the IDF Bulldozer Brigade just not have the funds it did 2 years ago - no wait, they're disbanded aren't they? I guess it would be a lot cheaper to just go in and kick asses, huh? "

See, I think you're trying to make some kind of biting statement. Try making an informed one next time. They bulldozed all the Jewish homes in Gaza just fine.

"The government of Israel has made plenty of mistakes which have contributed to the hatred and antisemitism in that region. If that's one-dimensional "moral equivalency" then fine, call me a one-dimensional moral equivalist! Oh boo hoo, whatever shall I do. "

Israel has made plenty of mistakes, but to say it contributes to hatred against Jews in that region is pretty ignorant of the historical timeline for the conflict. They disliked Jews before Israel even existed. Israel doesn't have to do much to provoke hatred...unless you credit Israel's right to exist as a provocation in itself.


"It seems to me however, that a blatant refusal to ever assign any fault to the Israeli government is a MUCH more one dimensional attitude. "

I assign plenty of fault to Israel. Ready? I'll list some mistakes they made:

- Giving land to Palestinians without a treaty instead of it's previous owners, Egypt, and Jordan.
- Negotiating with the PLO, and legitamizing Arafat, sponsoring their return.
- Demolishing productive communities in Gaza, leaving 9,000 Jews homeless, and 11,000 Palestinians unemployed.
- Building settlements in Gaza, when the land should have remained a buffer zone.
- Pandering to Egypt, and tearing down refugee housing in the Sinai.

[ziggytrix]

"Sure it's relevant. What are you really askin? "

Well I'm just trying to clear something up that has me confused. I thought the Israeli government had encouraged settlement in these "buffer zones" and now that they're forcing everyone out, it seems like this is a problem the Israeli government created. If I'm not mistaken, you seem to agree with me on that point. But in my opinion, while the heavy-handed, no tolerance, no exceptions method of enforcement of policy makes sense when you're used to dealing with crazies who'll blow themselves up to get to you, at the point at which it becomes standard operating procedure for everything, you've cut your nose off to spite your face.

The point where we diverge, I guess, is that I see examples of those kinds of mistakes made against non-Jews in the area, I see it as furthering the misunderstand of a government or class oppression for a racially motivated oppression. It was much the same in the US when organizations like the Black Panthers saw every flaw in the white establishment as an overt racial attack.

As for the notion that "Isreal's right to exist is provacation" I'm of the opinion that NO nation has a right to exist, and nationalism is just a symptom of inbreds who think their "pure-blood" makes them anything other than prone to disease and disfunction. But I doubt that particular human condition could be overlooked short of a global threat from another species of life, and so far no alien race has shown up for us to unite against in our natural desire to band together to fight our enemies. It's just as well, they'd prolly obliterate us. :(

[Abcdxxxx]

Well since you still live in Texas, and not Mexico, let's leave your ideals for a utopean world in dreamland, for now. Israel's opposition is a nationalist cause... with the goal of statehood IN PLACE of an Israeli state.

In their case, they desire a Jewish free, mostly Christian free, fascist, totalitarian nation in place of Israel, a country which has over a million non-Jewish citizens. (How many times must I repeat that!?). How is it that you percieve Israel with it's multi-ethnic, secular government as being guilty of racial oppression? Tell me where a Druze, or Kurd has more rights in the Mid-East, then in Israel?

When Israel turns inward, not out of guilt, or self reckoning, but to appease it's critics, and as a result, strips it's own Jewish citizens of basic rights as to which land they can or can not live, simply because of their ethnicity, then it's a problem. The only outposts being removed are Jewish ones. Arabs can stay. We're talking about the expulsion of 20,000 Jews in the face of Hamas taking control, and little attention from the World media. Scary, no? The use of force to justify their own history of self defense is obscene, and undermines their own status as a soveriegn nation.


Why is peace contingent on the region becoming free of Jews!? Why shouldn't that be considered a "racial attack" ?

[ziggytrix]

"Well since you still live in Texas, and not Mexico, let's leave your ideals for a utopean world in dreamland, for now."

One, the combined wealth of the world’s three richest people is greater than the total gross domestic product of the 48 poorest countries. Two, in 1960, the average income of the richest 20 per cent of the world’s population was 30 times higher than that of the poorest 20 per cent. By 1995, this had become 82 times greater (United Nations Development Programme Report 1998). Three, in 1970, the gap between the per capita GDP of the richest country, the United States of America ($5070) and of the poorest, Bangladesh ($57) was 88:1. In 2000, the gap between the richest, Luxembourg ($45,917) and the poorest, Guinea Bissau ($161) was 267:1. Four, a study of 77 countries (with 82 per cent of the world’s population) showed that between the Fifties and the Nineties, inequalities rose in 45 countries and fell in 16 countries.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/inequal/2005/1222inequgains.htm


So long as I'm living in America, why should I be complaining, is that it? But I'm not talking about waking up in an utopian dreamland, I'm talking about advancing humanity in a positive direction. You can call it a dream; I call it a goal.


But I'm wandering off-topic. Quite frankly, those who seek the complete obliteration of the state of Israel are human scum. Their minds are twisted by lies and their lives filling with enough indignities that they think their own death is meritous if it kills enough of the innocents they believe are their enemy. They bring NOTHING to the table for humanity.

As you've said a hundred times, Israel are doing the best of any nation in the region. I'm not contesting that. All I'm saying the state of Israel isn't blameless in the racial/religious/class struggle over there. Yet I'd have a hard time believing the heads of Israel intentionally sought out a path of racial or religious oppression, though I suppose class oppression is somewhat inevitable in any modern wealth-driven society.

But violently forcing their own populace out of the contested areas is probably a worse move than encouraging them to build there in the first place. In this case the IDF does not seem to be a force of racial oppression, but rather just a force of oppression. I don't know for sure, but I'm just guessing the folks in these settlements aren't rich and influential. Maybe this is what it will take for Islamic extremists to wake up to the fact that people are using religion to manipulate them to irreligious ends. If so, then I'll eat my words, and Israel will have pulled off an amazing feat, although I fear we're treading back into dreamland at this point.

More to the point, my only genuine negative opinions of Israel are regarding the military (and even then it's absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it is a Jewish military - the problems are inherent to any military authority and one need only try to tally the amount of destruction caused there by American forces in the last half century). Based on my very limited knowledge and watching a film of a meeting between IDF leaders and PA security leaders from around 2003, I don't really think the IDF brass were particularly interested in any peace process. Maybe they were too cynical to think there can ever be peace, maybe I'm completely wrong - I dunno. I don't know what the best solution is, but I'm pretty sure the military solution is one of escalation and destruction. But escalation targets the symptoms of the problem, not the sources. Next year will mark 40 years since the 6 Day War. How much better is the situation in the Middle East, in terms of reaching a real, lasting peace? Is a lasting peace even a realistic goal?

And if you can't get past the i-mockery induced sarcasm that tends to seep from my posts or if you just honestly think I'm bringing nothing to this discussion, please don't bother to reply, as I can think of a million more productive ways to spend my time than trying to have a serious discussion with you on a fucking internet forum attached to a humor website.

[Abcdxxxx]

By "IDF Brass" do you mean the military leadership itself, or the PM of Defense and the Knesset itself? Israelis are inherently cocky. It's part of the persona. If they didn't want peace, there are easier ways to go about war. For all they've been accused of (Nazism, racial oppression, apharthaid, genocide, etc.) it's obvious there is a true desire for peace.

My main concern is that you're applying your belief that all nations are trouble, and all states indulge in forms of racial oppression, to one tiny nation which is often made to be the scapegoat. It's not that the pro-Israel contingent doesn't see mistakes, or flaws in the execution of Israel's young democracy - it's just that we can't speak to those issues without it being interpreted as a concession to all the libels, and disinformation. As in "Aha, see the IDF *is* excessive! We told you!". I can appreciate humor and satire, but unless the joke is responding like an uninformed parrot with a simplistic view of the the situation, I see no reason not to respond as if you're sincere.

Regarding 1967 - it wasn't a landmark year for Israel, truthfully. The borders were never defined, and Israel was attacked again 6 years later on Yom Kippur. The situation really is worse then in 1967 though... as I've said before, there sure were millions of Palestinians salivating right on the green line , or terrorist armies out in the open, back then. A good argument could be made that things have improved for the Palestinians, both in terms of furthering the mythology of their identity, to even the quality of life they experience, even living in a harsh warzone. They have self rule, and full autonomy for the first time in modern history. Sadly, being Palestinian has become all about war with the Jewish State....even if they manage to drive all the Jews in the ocean, what are they left with?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

And if you can't get past the i-mockery induced sarcasm that tends to seep from my posts or if you just honestly think I'm bringing nothing to this discussion, please don't bother to reply, as I can think of a million more productive ways to spend my time than trying to have a serious discussion with you on a fucking internet forum attached to a humor website.
I was trying to console myself with the fact that he can't be as serious as he tries to come off as if he registered at these boards for the same reason that the rest of us did, because it's against human nature to be that incredibly concrete-headed and thick.

[ziggytrix]

By "IDF Brass" do you mean the military leadership itself, or the PM of Defense and the Knesset itself?

I think it was Shaul Mofaz who really rubbed me the wrong way in that recording. But then again, if I were a military man in his shoes, I'd probably think I was wasting my time talking to people my intelligence agency identified as two-faced terrorists.

My main concern is that you're applying your belief that all nations are trouble, and all states indulge in forms of racial oppression, to one tiny nation which is often made to be the scapegoat.

But I don't mean to make Israel the scapegoat. I don't want ANY scapegoat. I want to see honest, accountable acceptance of whatever degree of fault from BOTH sides and, more importantly, progress toward a peaceful, equitable solution. I don't know how true it is that "being Palestinian has become all about war with the Jewish State" but I hope you're incorrect, and that there is something else to it, though if you are correct, then violent border and indentity disputes are another example of inherent flaws of nationalism.

I almost hate to ask this, but in referring to "the mythology" of the Palestinian identity, are you saying you believe those people who call themselves Palestinians don't have the right to a state? Or even the right to a Palestinian identity? Or am I reading too much into your choice of that word?

[Abcdxxxx]

Do you really in your heart believe that there are "two wrongs for every fault"...or that we can't look at history and see that there is a value to ascribing who is a victim, without blame? As I've said, Israel's existance, and having Jewish neighbors was the original provocation. The way Israel, and Jews have responded is all relative to that.


There were Palestinian Arabs, just like there were Palestinian Jews. It wasn't an identity, nor was there a seperate tribal identity from those Arabs who went on to form Jordan. So when I say mythology, I'm talking about a post-PLO concept of a Palestinian. A great deal of Arabs involved in the Palestinian cause aren't related to the original 600,000 (or whatever number you want to use) at all. Do the math. Israel has 1million Arabs....more then half of Jordan's population are Palestinian...there are Palestinians in the EU, US, and elsewhere.... how the hell do you end up with 3 million in Gaza alone ?! The PA leadership is mostly Egyptian. I don't mean Palestinians raised in Egypt, I mean outright Egyptians, who started within Egyptian nationalist organizations before adopting the Palestinian angle. The cliche answer is to question if Palestinians have their own distinct style of food, song, dance, etc. The idea of Palestinian refugee camps is ambigious, and misleading as well. Even taking the name Palestine, and claiming it as their own is wrapped in mythology. So there's a great deal of mythology involved. That said, identity politics really come down to "hey if you want to call yourself a Palestinian and say you're a seperate people, then fiiiiiine". It's no coincidence that some of the first self declared Palestinian Historians were Literature, and Linguistics professors.

Do I believe they have a right to a State? I believe Jordan was meant to be their State, as part of the "two states for two people" concept. I 'm fine with the idea of a 2nd Palestinian State in Gaza, and a portion of the WB, but I know that's not going to satisfy their nationalist goals. The map used in PA schools shows the entirety of Israel labeled green for Palestinian. I also think that with plenty of Arab owned land for them, the draw to Israel isn't real estate. They're not looking for equal rights, they're looking to replace Israel's rights. Their refusal to live next door to Jews is my biggest concern.... and I think it's unlikely that some American college kids will be using Marxist texts to argue my right to return to Iraq and evict all the Arabs there, any time soon. It would be pretty ridiculous if they did, don't you think?

[Preechr]

Grit Your Teeth, Embrace Arab Democracy
Four reasons why there is no going back
Michael Young

Almost as soon as Hamas had won a majority in Palestinian legislative elections last week, politicians and publicists began spinning the results to buttress their agendas on Middle Eastern democracy. Not surprisingly, the arguments tended to gravitate toward absolutes, though much about regional democratization forestalls this. What works in one society may be a calamity in another; what an election victory shows about a group's popularity may have nothing to do with that group's criminal behavior. Democracy will continue to be cacophonous because that is its nature, and the nature of the Arab societies in which it is supposed to take root.

Take the two broad arguments greeting the Hamas victory. One side argues it was generally a good thing, because Palestinians had managed a peaceful transition of authority, permitting voters to settle their scores with a corrupt Fatah movement that had led the Palestinian Authority into chaos. Palestinians did not really vote in an Islamic state, this narrative continues, but sought an alternative to the despair of the moment. That's why Hamas' greatest challenge will be to satisfy the public's expectations for an amelioration of socio-economic conditions, making less likely a resort to violence. Deep down, advocates of this line suggest, Hamas is pragmatic and will accept a settlement with Israel along the 1967 borders, if East Jerusalem is made the capital of Palestine.

The other side retorts that such optimism is ludicrous. Hamas may have been ambiguous during the election campaign, but never renounced its objective to regain control over the whole of geographic Palestine, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean. It did not delete from its charter the aspiration to destroy Israel, even though it recently saw a tactical advantage in not highlighting this. Elections were a mistake, proponents of this line of reasoning continue, because Hamas is much stronger and now has a national platform to pursue its destructive policies. At a wider level, the fetish of democracy has thus been proven detrimental, because true democracy has no business bringing to power fundamentally undemocratic, indeed terrorist, groups.

It's difficult in Hamas' case to agree with one of the sides while ignoring the protests of the other. The movement is hardly a bearded version of, let's say, the Christian Democrats (indeed it's not even a bearded version of Fatah), and violence will continue to be at the center of its endeavors. It will not soon renounce its ambition to recapture all of Palestine, because it will not soon reject its deeply held beliefs that Israel is illegitimate, that the Oslo process was a terrible mistake, that Palestinian refugees from 1948 have a right to return to their towns and villages of origin, and that killing Israeli civilians is acceptable because Israelis do the same.

Hamas will surely have to address the day-to-day worries of its countrymen, but that hardly diminishes the fact that the movement feels it can deal with Israel in a far more successful way than the Palestinian Authority (PA) did. This means shaping a different approach than that of PA President Mahmoud Abbas, who sought, but could never deliver, Palestinian disarmament in exchange for Israeli concessions.

But should such realities cast doubt on the need for Middle Eastern societies to embrace democracy, even if Islamists use this to come to power? No, at least not in principle, though there will be many occasions where one's worst doubts are confirmed. Democratization cannot come with illusions: for certain groups it will be an instrument of leverage into positions of leadership, followed by subsequent efforts to empty democracy of its meaning. But that's where societies, but also the international community, must show there is a high price to be paid for reinforcing intolerance.

Why insist on democracy? First, because the stalemate imposed by autocratic Arab regimes, particularly secular regimes, will give at some stage, and may lead to Islamists' seizing authority anyway, without a pluralistic system in place to create social power centers offsetting them. Even in secular states such as Egypt, Syria and Jordan, Islamists have strongly infiltrated the system, so that the despots, eager to buy legitimacy through Islamic credentials, have ceded much by way of secular values. Rather than limiting the ambitions of Islamists, this behavior has only bolstered them. Elections may indeed represent a final stepping stone for Islamists to take power, but a controlled, genuine democratic opening beforehand would allow alternative groups to gain strength.

A second reason making the pursuit of democracy worthwhile is that it instills, at least in some societies, a notion of systematic accountability and transfer of authority. Iraq's Shiites may vote Islamist, but they also have had the opportunity to be asked about their views three times in 2005. It would be very difficult for an autocratic leadership to deny them this prerogative in the future. And with the habit of free elections comes the public's growing aggressiveness in evaluating its leaders.

Even in Iran, a country where elections have kept conservatives in power for two decades, voting is bound to lead to the emergence of more liberal forces once the system has had time to find an equilibrium and judge the merits of the revolutionary generation embodied by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. It may take time, but the mechanism of accountability is there, and was already twice used as a platform of protest against the system when Iranians voted for Mohammad Khatami as president.

A third reason is that democracy imposes transparency. When parties are obligated to clarify their positions to an electorate, they have to live with the consequences. Hamas' haziness on its pursuit of terrorism is disturbing, but the implications are also clear for everyone to see. The movement cannot forever hide its intentions, and voters, but also those pouring billions of dollars into Palestinian society, now have a paper trail to assess. Palestinians, in turn, can determine where their interests lie, and force Hamas in one direction or another.

Finally, there is the march of history. Democracy must reach Arab societies at some stage, after decades of debilitating authoritarianism. The Islamist wave is partly due to the abject failure of secular Arab nationalist states to let their peoples breathe. Denying a process to transcend these circumstances makes no sense. The road will be bumpy, and will be made bumpier by Arab regimes' refusing to ease their societies into a slow process that can absorb the contradictions inherent in democratization. Nor can counterfeit democracy substitute for an authentic opening.

Islamists may well win the first round in many places, and in some they might even try to ensure no second round follows. That's why domestic and foreign democratic barriers preventing this must be enhanced. But simply insisting that Arab states should perpetuate the deadlock of today not only ensures Islamists will gain strength by counter-reaction; it also displays remarkable contempt for the desire of Arabs to be counted.

[Abcdxxxx]

Hamas Video:
We will drink the blood of the Jews
By Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook - February 14, 2006
http://www.pmw.org.il/Latest%20bulletins%20new.htm#b140206


The Hamas website this week presented the parting video messages of two Hamas suicide terrorists. One message was for Jews, whose blood Hamas promises to drink until Jews "leave the Muslim countries," and the second to a mother, as she helps dress her son for battle prior to his suicide terror mission.

To view the Hamas' Drink Jew's blood video click here http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Hamas_suicide.asx

Each terrorist had a separate message for Jews. This first said,

"My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah, we will chase you everywhere! We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood. We will not leave until you leave the Muslim countries."

The second terrorist said the following:

"In the name of Allah, we will destroy you, blow you up, take revenge against you, [and] purify the land of you, pigs that have defiled our country... This operation is revenge against the sons of monkeys and pigs."

One of the terrorists saw his death as a wedding with the Maidens of Paradise:

"I dedicate this wedding [i.e. death for Allah] to all of those who have chosen Allah as their goal, the Quran as their constitution and the Prophet [Muhammad] as their role model. Jihad is the only way to liberate Palestine - all of Palestine - from the impurity of the Jews."

The message to one of the terrorist's mother was instruction for her to be joyous over his death and his "wedding" with the "Maidens of Paradise."

"My dear mother, you who have cared for me, today I sacrifice my life to be your intercessor [on Judgment Day]. O my love and soul, wipe your tears, don't be saddened. In the name of Allah, I've achieve all that I've aspired. Don't let me see you sad on my wedding day with the Maidens of Paradise. So be happy and not sad, because in the name of Allah, after death is merciful Allah's paradise."

Included in the clip is the farewell scene between the mother and terrorist son while she helps him don his military vest. In the background one can hear the lyrics, "My dear mother, don't cry over us."

To view the Hamas' Drink Jew's blood video click here

Such words are eerily familiar to a music video that ran on Palestinian Authority Television for years, in which a boy asks his parents to be happy over his sought after death. Two lines from the music video ran,

"My beloved, my mother, dearest to me most
Be joyous over my blood and do not cry for me"

Palestinian Media Watch has noted that on numerous occasions, the final messages of Palestinians that went on suicide missions reflected the messages they had been hearing in the Palestinian Authority media. Video can be viewed here. http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Hamas_suicide.asx

After filming their goodbyes, the two Hamas suicide terrorists went to the Karni Crossing and killed an Israeli soldier. The clip includes scenes of preparation of a tunnel, and hiding explosives in the tunnel.

Hamas placed the video on its website in February 2006 - after the Palestinian parliamentary elections. The terrorist act glorified in the video occurred over a year ago, on December 7, 2004.

[Abcdxxxx]

One more...

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:btFiPAkN71kJ:www.alqassam.com/arabic/%20&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

That link is to a Hamas website with an animated graphic of a nuclear bomb blowing up a Jewish star.