Enough lessons from these reactionary bigots!

[Pharaoh]

The European fightback against reactionary Muslim bigots has started. I'm buying Danish.


'SixÂ*European newspapers have reprinted controversial cartoons of the prophet Muhammad which have provoked outrage, trade boycotts and threats of violence towards DanesÂ*after they were first published in a Danish paper.

Under the headline "We have the right to caricature God," a struggling French tabloid today reprintedÂ*all 12 of theÂ*cartoons first printed by Jyllands-Posten, a right-of-centre Danish broadsheet last September.

See cartoons here (http://www.newspaperindex.com/blog/2005/12/10/un-to-investigate-jyllands-posten-racism/)

In an accompanying commentary, the editor of France Soir, which is in financial difficulties and has a readership of around 60,000, said he would never apologise for the decision to publish. Serge Faubert wrote: "Enough lessons from these reactionary bigots!

"There is nothing in these incriminated cartoons that intends to be racist or denigrate any community as such. Some are funny, others less so. That’s it. That is why we have decided to publish them," he added. "No, we will never apologise for being free to speak, to think and to believe."'

Link here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2020190,00.html)

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

You're falling behind, crybaby. They've already talked this through.

A week ago this was so hot that they almost kicked the Danish ambassador out of one of the countries, I think it might've been Kuwait? Somewhere in the Arabian Gulf.
I'm buying Danish.
Yawn.

[Pharaoh]

This is from todays news, you idiot. Have you actually read the story? Six more newspapers have printed the cartoons today. As usual you're talking out of your arse fuzzbot, and if you've nothing to say about it, then don't say anything.

[Geggy]

When the streets go quiet it mean something wrong Im standin on a corner sippin on something strong I like it like that fuck u I gotta pound my fuckin head with a hammer to keep me calm I like it like that so fuck u bec I like it like that fuck yall many hate on me but I m the greatest asshole just keep talkin cuz I like it like that so fuck u fuck yall what u gonna do fuck u bec I like it like that I say fuck all of u man cuz I like it like that

[ziggytrix]

How exactly are you "buying danish" (assuming you didn't run to the baker and pick up a dozen danishes, lol) and how do you think supporting the Dutch economy in general helps a Dutch newspaper in specific?

These cartoons are pretty lame, and yeah, a couple of em are racist carictures of Arabs, but so what? Is this something only Dutch cartoonists are doing? Can't you pretty much see the same thing in Newsweek?

Reactionary is a great word to describe both sides of this "issue".

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

This is from todays news, you idiot. Have you actually read the story? Six more newspapers have printed the cartoons today. As usual you're talking out of your arse fuzzbot, and if you've nothing to say about it, then don't say anything.
That's fucking bullshit, the cartoons were printed LAST MONTH. It's not my fucking fault if your sources are a month behind in WORLD NEWS.

Look at the date on this thing you pathetic ugly piece of mothershit:

Published 06.01.06

The Arab League's indignation about drawings of the prophet Mohammed lead Foreign Minister Per Stig Møller to contact the organisation's secretary general

Foreign Minister Per Stig Møller spoke by telephone to Amr Moussa, the secretary general of the Arabic League, on Thursday in an attempt to ease tensions between the Muslim world and Denmark.
The two agreed that the decision by Jyllands-Posten to publish 12 caricatures of the Muslim prophet Mohammed should no longer cause friction between the two, national broadcaster DR reported.

'We agree that this matter needs to end,' Møller said.

Møller contacted Moussa after the league expressed their 'surprise and indignation' over the Danish government's reaction to the protest of both Danish Muslims as well as Muslim ambassadors in Denmark.

In addition to agreeing to end the controversy, Moussa also accepted the Danish position that while there needs to be mutual respect between religions, that politicians should not get involved in what the media chooses to publish.

The publishing of the caricatures in September resulted in demonstrations by Muslims, who believe it to be blasphemous to draw Mohammed.

The situation led a group of Muslim ambassadors to request a meeting with Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen to discuss the tone of the debate over Muslims in Denmark. Rasmussen refused to meet with the ambassadors, stating that he had no influence over the press.

As news of the drawings and Rasmussen's reactions spread in the Muslim world, the prime minister and Denmark have been heavily criticised by Muslims for failing to take action.

In his New Year's address to the nation, however, Rasmussen sought to express his understanding for the Muslim point of view.

Rasmussen's olive branch, as well as a decision to translate


Try to prove me wrong NOW, you fucking dick.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Here's more for our resident retard:

Jyllands-Posten Mohammed as a Cartoon Hero -
Posted by Felis in Felis, News, Islam (Sunday January 1, 2006 at 5:15 pm)

LINK. (http://www.democracyfrontline.org/blog/?p=133)

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

How exactly are you "buying danish" (assuming you didn't run to the baker and pick up a dozen danishes, lol) and how do you think supporting the Dutch economy in general helps a Dutch newspaper in specific?

These cartoons are pretty lame, and yeah, a couple of em are racist carictures of Arabs, but so what? Is this something only Dutch cartoonists are doing? Can't you pretty much see the same thing in Newsweek?

Reactionary is a great word to describe both sides of this "issue".
This is their dumb way of 'supporting' Denmark.

Like the blog I posted a link to said:

Let’s support our Danish friends, let’s buy Danish!!

Yes, this is again about the Jylland-Posten cartoons. Muslims call for Boycott of Danish products to punish Denmark for those famous cartoons depicting Muhammad (published by Jylland-Posten well before last Christmas).


I guess they're all running around buying Danish milk and flip-flops hoping it'd save the fucking economy. Denmark lost about 5 million so far, and that's just from the boycotting of dairy products. We'll see what happens when they've literally removed everything Danish from the shelves. OH NOES.

HOLLA' AT YOUR FRIENDS.

[ScruU2wice]

http://forum.newspaperindex.com/Mohammed-drawings-newspaper1.jpg

:lol at the virgin one


Which one of these have pictures of god and/or muhammad?

[ziggytrix]

Yes, but Americans are MUCH better at making fun of Arabs. They're just getting all pissy at Denmark cuz Denmark is a military pipsqueak, doncha think?

[Pharaoh]

This is from todays news, you idiot. Have you actually read the story? Six more newspapers have printed the cartoons today. As usual you're talking out of your arse fuzzbot, and if you've nothing to say about it, then don't say anything.
That's fucking bullshit, the cartoons were printed LAST MONTH. It's not my fucking fault if your sources are a month behind in WORLD NEWS.

Look at the date on this thing you pathetic ugly piece of mothershit:

Published 06.01.06

The Arab League's indignation about drawings of the prophet Mohammed lead Foreign Minister Per Stig Møller to contact the organisation's secretary general

Foreign Minister Per Stig Møller spoke by telephone to Amr Moussa, the secretary general of the Arabic League, on Thursday in an attempt to ease tensions between the Muslim world and Denmark.
The two agreed that the decision by Jyllands-Posten to publish 12 caricatures of the Muslim prophet Mohammed should no longer cause friction between the two, national broadcaster DR reported.

'We agree that this matter needs to end,' Møller said.

Møller contacted Moussa after the league expressed their 'surprise and indignation' over the Danish government's reaction to the protest of both Danish Muslims as well as Muslim ambassadors in Denmark.

In addition to agreeing to end the controversy, Moussa also accepted the Danish position that while there needs to be mutual respect between religions, that politicians should not get involved in what the media chooses to publish.

The publishing of the caricatures in September resulted in demonstrations by Muslims, who believe it to be blasphemous to draw Mohammed.

The situation led a group of Muslim ambassadors to request a meeting with Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen to discuss the tone of the debate over Muslims in Denmark. Rasmussen refused to meet with the ambassadors, stating that he had no influence over the press.

As news of the drawings and Rasmussen's reactions spread in the Muslim world, the prime minister and Denmark have been heavily criticised by Muslims for failing to take action.

In his New Year's address to the nation, however, Rasmussen sought to express his understanding for the Muslim point of view.

Rasmussen's olive branch, as well as a decision to translate


Try to prove me wrong NOW, you fucking dick.

You've really shown how stupid you are this time bigmouth. Don't you ever read newspapers or watch the news? This is the latest development in the story, it's been on the news here all day.

The six newspapers republished the cartoons today to show that they are not going to be dictated to by Muslim bigots.

This is today's Times online:
here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/)

Middle East

Times Online February 01, 2006


A Palestinian militant in Gaza with a makeshift Danish flag defaced by a black foot (PATRICK BAZ/AFP/Getty Images)
Six newspapers reprint Muhammad cartoons
By Sam Knight and agencies


SixÂ*European newspapers have reprinted controversial cartoons of the prophet Muhammad which have provoked outrage, trade boycotts and threats of violence towards DanesÂ*after they were first published in a Danish paper.

Under the headline "We have the right to caricature God," a struggling French tabloid today reprintedÂ*all 12 of theÂ*cartoons first printed by Jyllands-Posten, a right-of-centre Danish broadsheet last September.

The coverage ranÂ*across pages four and five of this morning's edition with an editorial that defended the freedom of the press.

"The publication of 12 cartoons in the Danish press has shocked the Muslim world for whom the representation of Allah and his prophet is banned," the newspaper said. "But because no religious dogma can impose its view on a democratic and secular society, France Soir publishes the incriminated cartoons."

For its front page, the newspaper even commissioned its own image, showing a peeved Muhammad sitting on a cloud with Buddha, a Jewish God and a Christian God, who says: "Don’t complain Muhammad, we’ve all been caricatured here."

Meanwhile the German daily newspaper Die Welt today printed one of the cartoons on its front page todayÂ*- aÂ*drawing of the prophet wearing a turbanÂ*in the form ofÂ*a bomb about to explode.

"Democracy is the institutionalised form of freedom of expression. There is no right to protection from satire in the west; there is a right to blasphemy" the paper said in an accompanying comment piece.

The Berliner Zeitung also reprinted two cartoons as part of its coverage of the controversy. Italy’s Corriere della Serra and La Stampa, and
Spain’s Catalan daily El Periodico also published some or all of the images.

In an accompanying commentary, the editor of France Soir, which is in financial difficulties and has a readership of around 60,000, said he would never apologise for the decision to publish. Serge Faubert wrote: "Enough lessons from these reactionary bigots!

"There is nothing in these incriminated cartoons that intends to be racist or denigrate any community as such. Some are funny, others less so. That’s it. That is why we have decided to publish them," he added. "No, we will never apologise for being free to speak, to think and to believe."

There was no immediate reaction to the cartoons from the French Council of the Muslim Faith (CFCM), a body set up to represent France’s 5 million Muslims. With its strict separation of church and state, France has been the setting for vituperative religious controversies in the past. The Interior Minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, is closely associated with a 2004 law that prohibited the wearing of Muslim headscarves, Jewish skullcaps and prominent Christian crosses in secular state schools.

The images, which were the result of an offer to Danish cartoonists to depict Muhammad as they imagined him, have drawn thousands of Muslims out into the streets of the Middle East. This week, crowds in Gaza City burned Danish flags and images of the Danish Prime Minister, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, and fired guns into the air.

Similar protests took place today in Baghdad and in Yemen, where the Danish Red Cross has already withdrawn aid workers because of threats against its staff. Threats have been made to harm Danish citizens in Muslim countries.

Saudi Arabia has removed its ambassador in Copenhagen because of the cartoons. Libya has closed its embassy altogether. The governments of Qatar and Iran have lodged protests.

Islam forbids portrayals of Muhammad because they are considered idolatrous. One of the offending drawings shows Muhammad's turban as bomb with a lit fuse. In another he turns suicide bombers away from heaven because "We have run out of virgins".

Danish Muslim groups, some of which were responsible for publicising the cartoons in the first place, have since tried to calm the furore. Although neither Jyllands-Posten and Mr Rasmussen have apologised for printing the images, prominent imams in Copenhagen said yesterday they were shocked by the extent of the protests, which have let to widespread boycotts of Danish goods across the Middle East.

Arla Foods, Europe's largest dairy group which is headquartered in Denmark, said today it was losing 10 million kroner (£916,000) a dayÂ*because of the boycott. The world’s biggest maker of insulin, Novo Nordisk, has also been hit after pharmacies and hospitals in Saudi Arabia refused to offer its products.Â*



You're wrong, moron.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

You're still a month behind. The news in the fucking article you posted are RECYCLED from the beginning of last month. Open your fucking eyes and get your ugly head out of your herpes-infested ass.
You're wrong, moron.
You told me the cartoons weren't published until today. They've been published on at least like 10 fucking websites and some magazines within Europe already since LAST FUCKING MONTH, you insignificant peon.

I don't really find any of these offensive, the Muslims abroad just need to calm the fuck down and find something else to waste their time with. It's like that whole thing in the Netherlands regarding the fuckwit 11-minute documentary that smelt like shit (but fooled millions of guillable sluts) and the Muslims (just young skinhead fucks looking for trouble and bored housewives suffering through menopause) ruined it for the rest of the Muslim immigrants abroad, particularly the ones in Europe. There's no need to kill a guy who stated that we have sex with goats on national TV. Why can't we just mock him and shove him aside and wait for the next laughable bore to tapdance their way towards us thinking they're God's gift to this goddamned world since they were born knowing the truth and nothing but the TRUTH because of the third person effect and 'the media didn't fool me I actually KNOW this shit. In fact, I've been studying this shit for decades!'

The boycott won't last for long. Give it 5 more days and we'll be back to buttfucking each other with empty milk cartons.

The Danish ambassador is being a sweetheart about it, though. And our King doesn't really mind this shit, he's not that religious. He just doesn't want Saudi pissing on us like it usually does. "YOU'RE NOT OFFENDED? THEN WE WANT OUR CAUSEWAY BACK. WANNA TRADE SPOUSES?"

This isn't a big fucking deal. 80% of Denmark already voted that there shouldn't be an apology. Probably a similar amount of Muslims would have that vote too. It's not their fucking country. They're gonna have to respect democracy for what it truly is, especially if they're "looking forward" to a more democratic future. They can defend their faith elsewhere and through other means, this is just silly fun that was never meant to be taken seriously to begin with.

[Pharaoh]

You're still a month behind. The news in the fucking article you posted are RECYCLED from the beginning of last month. Open your fucking eyes and get your ugly head out of your herpes-infested ass.
You're wrong, moron.
You told me the cartoons weren't published until today. They've been published on at least like 10 fucking websites and some magazines within Europe already since LAST FUCKING MONTH, you insignificant peon.


I'm not a month behind, but you obviously are, because you didn't know about this latest development, did you?

The difference today is that six newspapers reprinted the cartoons, UNDERSTAND?

[ScruU2wice]

Idon't even undertand with the star of david and the crescent being eaten by pacman :confused

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

The difference today is that six newspapers reprinted the cartoons, UNDERSTAND?
As opposed to the five newspapers who already printed this a month ago?

You fucking amaze me.

They reprinted it to stir up the shit that calmed down since it's OLD. NEWS. The Muslims were raged up to the max by mid-January. They've calmed down. They re-appeared in the news on January 29th when websites and magazines kept printing this, showing their support for the "free media," and how is this fucking different than 6 newspapers who are only doing this now?

Fucking half-wit.

[Pharaoh]

Well why don't you tell The Times and the BBC it's old news because it's one of their top stories today. If you took more time calmly reading posts instead of just exploding in a fit of hysterics then you wouldn't waste so much time and effort on all the bullshit you write and you wouldn't look so dumb, bigmouth.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

BBC has been covering this shit for the past fucking month, you idiot. If you've actually visisted their website you'd see that this was front-page material at least three times this year. It made the front-page a week ago as well, too bad you weren't fucking paying attention.
If you took more time calmly reading posts instead of just exploding in a fit of hysterics
I'm fuming and my fucking feet are flapping around in the air.
waste so much time and effort on all the bullshit you write and you wouldn't look so dumb, bigmouth.
English is your first and only language I bet, diversify your fucking diction. I'm getting bored of 'bigmouth.'

If you spent time reading the news you would have brought this up as SOON as it made the headlines.

[Pharaoh]

I wasn't even a member here when the cartoons were originally printed, bigmouth. I assumed it would have already been discussed here. Obviously it hasn't been, because it's one of those difficult subjects for you lefties. Freedom of speech or Islam, which has to go?

[ziggytrix]

Would you two just shut the fuck up? You read like a couple of children fighting on a playground.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Like I already said, Mid-January was when the issue was hot, that's when we confronted the ambassador. Plenty of time to put that simple little brain of yours in practice by actually opening a newspaper.

Freedom of speech or Islam, which has to go?
Ignorance and sheer stupidity have to go before either. Once these go, you'd realize that Islam has nothing to do with 'freedom of speech.' It's called being lead by a monarchy. Islam didn't tell our governments not to allow us to bash them in public, you're too mentally deranged if you actually link those two together.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Would you two just shut the fuck up? You read like a couple of children fighting on a playground.
Please don't fucking tell me that you thought this cock-up thread was actually gonna go somewhere.

[MLE]

cock-up?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Yeah, it's like, screw-up. Only you can apply it to shitty things and not just shitty people.

"Your spiffy post just put this entire cock-up thread to shame. Good job."

[MLE]

screw-up is a noun, not an adjective.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Americans here say "shut the hell up, you fucking screw-up" a lot. Not you "screwed up," but screw-up, written this way too.

So I figured I'd use cock-up the same way. Maybe it'll be a new trend or some such wank.

[ziggytrix]

really, let's gay-up this thread a bit more by arguing about the proper use of slang. >:

[ScruU2wice]

guys I'm offended...

[Pharaoh]

Well, not surprisingly the editor of the French newspaper, France Soir, who dared to stand up for freedom of speech, has now been sacked for offending Muslims. Oh well, at least he tried.


Extract from yesterday's France Soir:

It is necessary to crush once again the infamous thing, as Voltaire liked to say. This religious intolerance that accepts no mockery, no satire, no ridicule. We citizens of secular and democratic societies are summoned to condemn a dozen caricatures judged offensive to Islam. Summoned by who? By the Muslim Brotherhood, by Syria, the Islamic Jihad, the interior ministers of Arab countries, the Islamic Conferences - all paragons of tolerance, humanism and democracy.

So, we must apologise to them because the freedom of expression they refuse, day after day, to each of their citizens, faithful or militant, is exercised in a society that is not subject to their iron rule. It's the world upside down. No, we will never apologise for being free to speak, to think and to believe.

Because these self-proclaimed doctors of law have made this a point of principle, we have to be firm. They can claim whatever they like but we have the right to caricature Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha, Yahve and all forms of theism. It's called freedom of expression in a secular country ...

For centuries the Catholic church was little better than this fanaticism. But the French Revolution solved that, rendering to God that which came from him and to Caesar what was due to him.

Link here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1700224,00.html)

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

France Soir is owned by an Egyptian, Ramy Lakah.

Here's further proof of the fact that not all Arabs are against freedom of speech and the like.

[Pharaoh]

Yes but Ramy Lakah is a Christian, fuzzbot. Try again.

Link here (http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/news/bn2005/bn-2005-06-201.htm)

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Like that fucking matters, right? Islam has nothing to do with freedom of speech. It's called being lead by a "totalitarian regime." Argentina used to kidnap and torture people if they spoke out against the government in the early 70's, was that because they're Muslim? You're just blaming it on Islam because you're too lazy and stupid to look up other causes.

In Swaziland, you'll most likely get killed if you speak out against the King. Christianity is their official religion. Do you see anyone blaming Christianity for their lack of free speech? Because this is exactly what you're doing.

[Pharaoh]

Fusspot, I agree, Islam has got nothing to do with freedom of speech.

Artistic representations of the human form are forbidden in Islam, and pictures of Muhammad are especially taboo. Right? In the West, however, satire is accepted and you can make caricatures of anyone. So Muslims here are demanding special treatment, and we shouldn't give in to them, if they don't like it they should leave. Why should we change our way of life to suit Muslims?

[Dole]

Those cartoons are fucking shit.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

if they don't like it they should leave. Why should we change our way of life to suit Muslims?

I already said this in my previous post.

[AChimp]

Reprinting these comics isn't about free speech; it's about trying to increase the ratings of a newspaper that has been tanking for quite a while. Now others are copying it because they saw that it actually worked and sold a few more papers. :blah

Looks like you're the only one who really cares around here, Pharoah.

[mburbank]

"The European fightback against reactionary Muslim bigots has started."

NOW you're on my radar, Pharoah! What the HELL is that sentence about? Who are you, KlammyKat?

Oh, and did you ever say what buying Danish meant? Does this mean you were buying Muslim products and now you're going to vote with your money and start buying Danish products instead?

[Pharaoh]

mbutwank, there is nothing wrong with that sentence. You seem to have some sort of problem with your reading, maybe you need new glasses. It's all that wanking I'm afraid, it makes you go blind.

And it's quite simple, when I fancy a bacon sandwich I'll buy Danish bacon and Lurpack butter, and when I next go to the pub I'll have a pint of Carlsberg Export. I've never heard of any Muslim products, apart from suicide bombs, so there'll be no change there.

[mburbank]

What is a 'fightback'?

Is it like war? As in "Let loose the dogs of fightback?"

Is it resistance? Like the French Fightback during WWII?

Is it backlash? As in Liberalism inevitably invited a fightback?

Or did you just not put a space between fight and back. Ifg so when you fight against something, you are already fighting back.

Oh, and when you called me 'butwank', you really let the fightback begin.

Message boards are written communication. A post is measured by the quality of it's writing. I didn't expect you to get so upset over a little fightback.

[Pharaoh]

What is a 'fightback'?

Is it like war? As in "Let loose the dogs of fightback?"

Is it resistance? Like the French Fightback during WWII?

Is it backlash? As in Liberalism inevitably invited a fightback?

Or did you just not put a space between fight and back. Ifg so when you fight against something, you are already fighting back.

Oh, and when you called me 'butwank', you really let the fightback begin.

Message boards are written communication. A post is measured by the quality of it's writing. I didn't expect you to get so upset over a little fightback.

I'm not sure I get your point, butwank, you're weird. It's a counter-attack, and I've seen it written fight back or fightback, used in the same way I did, by the BBC and all the quality papers here.

:posh

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4544352.stm)
The Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5205-1984315,00.html)
The Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/sport/2006/01/03/scaust03.xml)
The Independent (http://news.independent.co.uk/media/article325464.ece)

Why don't you send a letter of complaint to them? I'm sure they'll have a good laugh at it.

[mburbank]

You're just sore because the sun set on your empire.

[Pharaoh]

I don't mind the sun going down on our empire but I don't want Britain or Europe to return to the Dark Ages with only the crescent moon of Islam lighting our way.

I actually admire the freedom of speech you have in the USA, and I'm interested in what would happen if an American newspaper had printed those cartoons. Would the Muslims there have caused such a fuss about it and would there be any apology from the newspaper? Would there ever be a law passed to stop it happening again?

[Ant10708]

Or maybe it is your constant grammar corrections. Give it a rest. I'm sure I'm not suppose to start a sentence with 'or'. Someone please bore me with an english lesson on a message board so I never make such a terrible mistake again.

[Dole]

I actually admire the freedom of speech you have in the USA

Um...that we don't have here? been censored or oppressed lately?

[Pharaoh]

I actually admire the freedom of speech you have in the USA

Um...that we don't have here? been censored or oppressed lately?

Are you kidding? You may not have noticed but, while you've been smoking your pot, the leader of the British National Party, Nick Griffin, has been on trial for using words intended or likely to stir up racial hatred. He was secretly recorded at a private meeting saying 'Islam is a wicked religion' and describing Britain as a 'multi-racial hellhole', and he faced up to seven years in prison if found guilty.
He was found not guilty but he's now facing a retrial on two further charges after the judge discharged the jury.

The likes of you may have freedom of speech, but anyone that objects to Britain being completely multiracial and multicultural certainly doesn't.

[Dole]

Poor old Nick Griffin. My heart bleeds for the poor, oppressed cunt, who has been found not guilty of inciting racial hatred.

[ziggytrix]

Pharoah, on something of a tangent, what is your opinion of Mr. Griffin and his party?

[Chojin]

BREAKING NEWS

No it isn't

YES IT IS

No it isn't

TECHNICALLY IT IS

No it isn't

IT'S BEEN REVISITED, IT'S NEW

No it isn't

I ASSUMED NO ONE HERE KNEW

Okay

GET THESE MEN ON CROSSFIRE!

[Abcdxxxx]

There wouldn't be a story here if Islamic soveriegn nations were encouraging personal freedoms. I understand though. The Arab press is filled with supposedly satirical cartoons about Jews every day that I find offensive..... I just wonder why CAIR doesn't have a problem with that, or with fascism in general. That's really the issue, and that's why there's even a fuss at all about this.

[Pharaoh]

Pharoah, on something of a tangent, what is your opinion of Mr. Griffin and his party?

Well, they provide a voice for the white working class poor who live in high immigration areas. No other party sticks up for them and the police are so hampered by political correctness that they are now useless in fighting ethnic minority criminal gangs there.

I voted for Tony Blair last election but I feel now that he's repressing freedom of speech here in an attempt to get Muslims on his side. And I have sympathy for the BNP because it gets so much harassment, such as police surveillance, arrests of its leadership, seizures of party literature, interference with its bank accounts, and attempts to fire its members from public-sector employment.

I still don't agree with all their views, such as their opposition to the Iraq war, but I think Nick Griffin has improved them in recent years. So I would consider voting for them now, especially after this last court case.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

The Arab press is filled with supposedly satirical cartoons about Jews every day that I find offensive....
You don't even speak Arabic you fucking numbnuts, what if the caption said: LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR?

Find me an example of these cartoons.

NOW.

[Abcdxxxx]

Oh I get it. You're a dope who can't provide a citation for anything he claims is factual.... so this is your new schtick?


Try Bahrain's Akbahr Al-Khalil newspaper from January 29th where the Danish cartoons are depicted as Zionist related.

Here's two more from Bahrain.
http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/asam_july_dec_bahrain_2005.htm

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Oh yes, they make these cartoons DAILY because you are SO FAMILIAR with our extremely diverse press.

That cartoon was political. Did it bash Jews? No. It bashed Israel and the US, fuckwad. It's called political satire and not mocking religion which is what you CLAIMED in your previous post. Aww and you were actually offended! Should I tuck you in and assure you that everything's gonna be okay soon?

[Abcdxxxx]

What offends me is your hypocrisy.

A Danish wheel of cheese shaped like a JEWISH star ? Yeah, totally political. Caricatures of hook nosed Jews? Not the least bit anti-semitic. Like you were raised in the land of tolerance? What the fuck would you know?

[ziggytrix]

those are supposed to be antisemitic cartoons?

that's even lamer than getting bent over the monkey-lipped carictures of mohammed.

THIS is an antisemitic cartoon http://www.amptoons.com/blog/images/blood_libel_cartoon.gif but i guess since it came from a British paper it doesn't help your point.

[ScruU2wice]

Artistic representations of the human form are forbidden in Islam, and pictures of Muhammad are especially taboo. Right?

Only because Islam doesn't want people worshipping Muhammad like God.

In the West, however, satire is accepted and you can make caricatures of anyone. So Muslims here are demanding special treatment, and we shouldn't give in to them, if they don't like it they should leave. Why should we change our way of life to suit Muslims?

let's not tell them MAD magazine exists, just yet.


Once again you're picking out Islam, in a field where most religions can apply. I don't see how people being offended by an offensive comic is anything that demonizes Islam, or anything that should be perticularly unexpected. but this should just add to the headlines of people taking life too seriously...

"ISLAMO FACIST WANT NEWSPAPERS TO STOP RUNNING COMIC MOCKING THEIR RELIGION AND DESECRATING THEIR GOD"

"CHRISTIANS HOLD BOOK BURNING OF HARRY POTTER AND THE DA VINCI CODE"

"CHRISTIAN CONSERVATIVE GROUPS PRESS TO BOYCOTT HOLLYWOOD AND IT'S MORAL CORRUPTION"

"JEWISH COMMUNITY OUTRAGED AT BANK PRESIDENT SAYING HITLER TURNED GERMAN ECONOMY AROUND, BANK PRESIDENT RESIGNS"

[Abcdxxxx]

What's next...you gonna scan your dicks into the computer so you can compare? Please tell me you're not really trying to make an argument that anti-Jewish propaganda, via cartoons or any other medium isn't rampant through the Arab world.

The message still stands. Islamic nations and the Arab world in general does not promote freedom & liberty, so it's ironic that a) Muslims are offended and want to suppress such free speech in Western nations, and b) they turn a blind eye to hate speak except when Muhhamed is involved.

Like I said. I don't blame them. That doesn't mean I'm trying to compete over who can find the most offensive cartoon with you dumshits.

[ScruU2wice]

Pharoah, I think your unspoken solution to all of you the UK's problems is to board up all Muslim people and ship them to hell, then burn korans and erase any digital data about islam... then dance.

Please tell me if I'm getting the wrong impression here.

[Dole]

Well, they provide a voice for the white working class poor who live in high immigration areas. No other party sticks up for them and the police are so hampered by political correctness that they are now useless in fighting ethnic minority criminal gangs there.

I voted for Tony Blair last election but I feel now that he's repressing freedom of speech here in an attempt to get Muslims on his side. And I have sympathy for the BNP because it gets so much harassment, such as police surveillance, arrests of its leadership, seizures of party literature, interference with its bank accounts, and attempts to fire its members from public-sector employment.

I still don't agree with all their views, such as their opposition to the Iraq war, but I think Nick Griffin has improved them in recent years. So I would consider voting for them now, especially after this last court case.

Says it all really, doesnt it? Classy! What a joy you must be to be around. Have fun voting BNP, freak.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

your hypocrisy.
And this is coming from a guy who finds those "Jewish-bashing" cartoons offensive, yet he doesn't think it's right for Muslims to be offended by "Islam-bashing" cartoons.
Please tell me you're not really trying to make an argument that anti-Jewish propaganda, via cartoons or any other medium isn't rampant through the Arab world.

And please try to tell us all that anti-Islamic propogranda isn't rampant through the Western world and Israel.

[Pub Lover]

Define 'rampant'.

[Abcdxxxx]

And this is coming from a guy who finds those "Jewish-bashing" cartoons offensive, yet he doesn't think it's right for Muslims to be offended by "Islam-bashing" cartoons.

Don't turn my words back on me like the child you are. This is what I said:

I understand though.
Like I said. I don't blame them.

I think THIS reaction is pretty ridiculous examples of pure hypocrisy though....

"Day of anger threatened over cartoons of prophet"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/03/wcart03.xml&sSheet=/portal/2006/02/03/ixportaltop.html

"The War is on"
"http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/747"

British Muslim group call to kill anyone who insult Mohhamed
http://www.alghurabaa.co.uk/articles/new/cartoon.htm

Palestinians are targeting anyone who might be Danish.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1138622532495&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Pharaoh]

Pharoah, I think your unspoken solution to all of you the UK's problems is to board up all Muslim people and ship them to hell, then burn korans and erase any digital data about islam... then dance.

Please tell me if I'm getting the wrong impression here.

No you're wrong, I don't like dancing, I'll have a pint of beer instead. :lol

ScruU2wice, you and many others on this forum spend a lot of time and effort discussing what I think and yet never really say what you think about the issue. This topic isn't about me it's about the clash between Muslims and Western secular values.

The question is, do you think the European press should give in to Muslim pressure and stop printing any pictures of Muhammad or carry on as usual? Should Muslims be given special treatment by the Western media, and our freedom of speech be surrendered to please them?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Don't turn my words back on me like the child you are. This is what I said:
You keep flip-flopping like the ignorant twit that you truly are. You're only hostile because it bothers you that people could see right through your blatant stupidity. This is what you implied in your useless posts.

"I don't blame them though. BUT THEY DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO WHAT THEY'RE DOING. I hate their guts because they're ignorant of their own oppression. Their press really sucks, they can't say shit. I understand them, though. Yeah, I can relate. I'm intolerant of their beliefs. I'm accepting, though. I don't blame them, though. There's no such thing as Jewish propoganda, everything they say in their press and other media outlets is just skewed. They're trying to impose their opinions, I hate them so much. I understand them, though."

Do us all a favour and shut the fuck up.

[Abcdxxxx]

So is that you defending the Arab press against accusations they're equally as offensive? Or just defending the right of Muslims to try and oppress the European and World press ? I'm not sure. Why don't you clarify your response and get back to us.

You keep trying to make the discussion about me... It's cute, but you should go back to thumbsucking.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

So is that you defending the Arab press against accusations they're equally as offensive? Or just defending the right of Muslims to try and oppress the European and World press ? I'm not sure. Why don't you clarify your response and get back to us.
You're not making fun of Muslims, you're making fun of a Prophet, which is something that we have never, ever done. It is forbidden for us to mock Jesus and the Jewish faith. Our papers make fun of the Israeli government (and not Israelis in general) just like Israelis make fun of us. So what the fuck do you find so offensive? That just because you're Jewish you feel as if you should be offended by satirical comments thrown towards the Israelis? That's fucking absurd.
You keep trying to make the discussion about me... It's cute, but you should go back to thumbsucking
It's a shame how people who are infested with your damn queer retard virus can easily come up with such a feeble defense. Try harder next time. Or don't, I suspect I'd hardly notice the change.

[ziggytrix]

Jesus and Moses were in heaven, fishing from a rowboat. While fishing, they began to reminisce about the miracles they had performed when they were on earth. Just to see if they still had the knack, they each decided to perform one of their old miracles.

Moses stood up, raised his arms and the water parted, allowing the boat to gently sink to the bottom of the pond. He then lowered his arms and the water slowly rose again, bringing the boat with it.

Jesus said, "Pretty good, Mo. Now I'll try." He stepped out of the boat and began walking across the pond. After about two steps, he began to sink. Luckily, Moses was able to grab him and haul him back into the boat before he went under.

"Wow!" Moses exclaimed. "What do you suppose happened to you?"

"Aw, Mo," Jesus replied, "I should have known better than to try that one. The last time I did that, I didn't have these holes in my feet."

[Pharaoh]

You don't even have to poke fun at Muhammad to offend Muslims, even a picture of him will get them angry. They're not allowed to depict Muhammad, however complimentary, because it's considered idolatrous and they expect the rest of the non-Muslim world to comply as well.

They've been having a 'day of anger (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2023462,00.htm)' here and no doubt all this will result in European newspaper editors being unwilling to ever criticize Islam. They're not going to risk getting fired or have death threats made against them.

More Muslims = Less free speech

http://i1.tinypic.com/n3r960.jpg

[Ant10708]

I like ziggy's joke. :)

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

More Muslims = Less free speech
Stupid conclusion. This was simply a reaction. Everyone has reactions to things they find highly offensive.

[ziggytrix]

It is an asinine reation. The threats of violence are too much. Sensible Muslims need to tell these people to shut the fuck up.

[Ant10708]

That is probaly the biggest problem. It seems most sensible Muslims stay mute when the vocal crazies stir shit up.

[ScruU2wice]

No you're wrong, I don't like dancing, I'll have a pint of beer instead. :lol

ScruU2wice, you and many others on this forum spend a lot of time and effort discussing what I think and yet never really say what you think about the issue. This topic isn't about me it's about the clash between Muslims and Western secular values.

The question is, do you think the European press should give in to Muslim pressure and stop printing any pictures of Muhammad or carry on as usual? Should Muslims be given special treatment by the Western media, and our freedom of speech be surrendered to please them?

I already said I think muslims are going nuts over something that offends them, and It shouldn't be a surprise. I don't think they should be going as crazy as they are over this, and I don't think there is anything in Islam that says we should. I don't think that the danish should have published it in the first place, just because I think only like 3 of them make a point. I don't think that they should be barred either, if the newspaper wants to print it go ahead. I think that it was the papers right to fire any employee they choose if they believe that the employees actions are harmful to the company. But most of all I think people are stupid especially the muslim people who are up in arms over this. None of those crappy cartoons woulda got gotten a second glance if the muslims didn't see it as an attack.

So now that I have answered all of your questions as bluntly as possible, answer mine. What is your solution to the "Islamic" problems? Inquisition maybe?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

It is an asinine reation. The threats of violence are too much. Sensible Muslims need to tell these people to shut the fuck up.
I already said this in the previous post when I talked about Muslims going way too far after being offended with 'Submission I' and 'II,' the documentary made by a Dutch MP who's originally from Somalia.

Sensible Muslims ARE telling these people shut the fuck up, but the media coverage makes it sound like most or even all of the Muslim community is reacting the same way.

But that is so not the case.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-020306muhammed_lat,0,1904376.story?coll=la-home-headlines


"Today's protests came one day after masked Palestinians in the Gaza Strip fired weapons into the air as they surrounded an office of the European Union and a French cultural center.

Two Palestinian militant groups threatened to retaliate against the newspapers by kidnapping European citizens and targeting churches and European offices.

A Jordanian weekly that ran the cartoons with a plea to Muslims to "be reasonable" fired its editor, withdrew the edition and faced possible sanction from the government, AP reported.

In Paris, the tabloid France Soir abruptly fired its managing editor for reprinting the caricatures in Wednesday's edition, the cover of which carried the paper's own cartoon of Muhammad alongside Christian, Jewish and Buddhist holy figures. "Don't complain, Muhammad, we're all being caricatured here," the Christian God says.

Tunisia and Morocco banned the sale of copies of France Soir."

This seems like a perfectly reasonable response to these cartoons. :rolleyes

As fuzzbot already mentioned, I'm sure that these nut balls represent a minority of muslims, but seriously, would you guys be bending over backwards to give Pat Robertson the benefit of the doubt if he fired an M-16 off and threatened to kill journalists who mocked Jesus??? (btw, that would be the coolest thing ever)

[ziggytrix]

There is a huge fucking gap between "bending over backwards to give the benefit of doubt" and "calling Pharoah the bigoted shithead he is".

Sensible people have sensible reactions to this sort of behavior, and say "well, I don't think that's right." Bigots say, "let's start the fightback!"

I find it curious that people think "sensible Muslims keep quiet" when first of all, we can't count the inaction of anyone under a despotic regime as indicative of their true beliefs. And secondly, in free countries people saying "hey, be reasonable!" don't garner media attention. So even if someone is speaking out, who's to say anyone is particularly listening?

I never heard a big Christian outcry against abortion clinic bombers. Does that mean no sensible Christian ever spoke against that atrocious behavior? I can't even imagine that's true!

[Abcdxxxx]

Our papers make fun of the Israeli government (and not Israelis in general) just like Israelis make fun of us. So what the fuck do you find so offensive?



I guess you're too stupid to know....
Moses is routinely mocked in "political cartoons". When you critisize Israel using caricatures of hooked nose Jews, use Holocaust imagery, draw on old time blood libels, depict Jews as Shylocks, horned Devils, blood suckers, reference the Elders of Zion, depict soldiers wearing yarmulkes, use imagery of Orthodox or Hasidim to represent Israelis .... IT'S ANTI-JEWISH!!! Now get your head out of the sand, and stop defending Arab media for doing what the Danish and European media did.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

There is a huge fucking gap between "bending over backwards to give the benefit of doubt" and "calling Pharoah the bigoted shithead he is".

I! think that Scru and others were! doing more than just calling out reactionary Pharaoh!!!!

I think if Christians were doing this (see classic abortion clinic cliche below), you guys would be jumping up and down like Pharaoh is!!!!


I find it curious that people think "sensible Muslims keep quiet" when first of all, we can't count the inaction of anyone under a despotic regime as indicative of their true beliefs. And secondly, in free countries people saying "hey, be reasonable!" don't garner media attention. So even if someone is speaking out, who's to say anyone is particularly listening?

To my understanding, the little demonstrations are also occurring in Europe, so that point isn't entirely relevant. However, I think you're right about the contrived outrage of muslims in Islamic/state controlled countries. But if we're to assume that these "outraged" people are merely props of the state, why should we care about their reaction at all? That would be like defending the faux protestors who Clear Channel paid to counter-protest anti-war shit.

I never heard a big Christian outcry against abortion clinic bombers. Does that mean no sensible Christian ever spoke against that atrocious behavior? I can't even imagine that's true!

There's a big difference, aside from being wrong about the outcry. Not only did Christians denounce the actions, but leaders of the respective denominations (http://www.ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/OCONABOR.HTM) came out and publicly denounced it.

And yes, some prominent muslims (http://ottsun.canoe.ca/News/National/2006/02/03/1423771-sun.html) have denounced the protests and threats. But the stark contrast i see is that the governements in this region, like Jordan, are actually stepping in and censoring this. They're punishing people who publish these cartoons.

I guess my take on it is if you can't laugh at yourself, even just a little bit, than you haven't evolved much culturally or religiously. All the threats of violence and stuff, well, whatever. i think those are probably a small % of muslims, yet that hasn't stopped these governments from stepping in and totally overreacting.

[Pharaoh]

No you're wrong, I don't like dancing, I'll have a pint of beer instead. :lol

ScruU2wice, you and many others on this forum spend a lot of time and effort discussing what I think and yet never really say what you think about the issue. This topic isn't about me it's about the clash between Muslims and Western secular values.

The question is, do you think the European press should give in to Muslim pressure and stop printing any pictures of Muhammad or carry on as usual? Should Muslims be given special treatment by the Western media, and our freedom of speech be surrendered to please them?

I already said I think muslims are going nuts over something that offends them, and It shouldn't be a surprise. I don't think they should be going as crazy as they are over this, and I don't think there is anything in Islam that says we should. I don't think that the danish should have published it in the first place, just because I think only like 3 of them make a point. I don't think that they should be barred either, if the newspaper wants to print it go ahead. I think that it was the papers right to fire any employee they choose if they believe that the employees actions are harmful to the company. But most of all I think people are stupid especially the muslim people who are up in arms over this. None of those crappy cartoons woulda got gotten a second glance if the muslims didn't see it as an attack.

So now that I have answered all of your questions as bluntly as possible, answer mine. What is your solution to the "Islamic" problems? Inquisition maybe?

The solution is to let Muslims who come to live in Western countries know that they can't demand we change our way of life and give up our freedom of speech just because they are offended by it. If we give in to this, next it will be something else, and eventually shariah law. We shouldn't let them gradually turn our societies Islamic, they should adapt to our way of life or live in an Islamic country.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I guess you're too stupid to know....
Moses is routinely mocked in "political cartoons". When you critisize Israel using caricatures of hooked nose Jews, use Holocaust imagery, draw on old time blood libels, depict Jews as Shylocks, horned Devils, blood suckers, reference the Elders of Zion, depict soldiers wearing yarmulkes, use imagery of Orthodox or Hasidim to represent Israelis .... IT'S ANTI-JEWISH!!! Now get your head out of the sand, and stop defending Arab media for doing what the Danish and European media did.
I guess you're too blind and illiterate to read and understand the captions. I hardly ever come across the cartoons you're making up, and when I do (raaaaarely), it HARDLY states anything about Jews. Our Jewish community would've done something against that had we done this repeatedly. It's always about the U.S and Israel.

[Abcdxxxx]

So wait, if the 25 Jews in Bahrain aren't calling for censorship it means these cartoons don't exist?

With the imagery I described you don't even need a caption, or the word Jew... it's clearly implied.

Perhaps some of the references depicted in the cartoons are over the head of the typical teen in these countries? I have no idea, but as a Jew I can say, the only thing comparable were the "political cartoons" which lead up to Nazi Germany. It's a volatile climate these days... for everyone.

(edit: by the way. i linked you to a cartoon published in bahrain which suggests these danish cartoons are a jewish conspiracy. where do you get off saying i'm "making up" cartoons?")

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

(edit: by the way. i linked you to a cartoon published in bahrain which suggests these danish cartoons are a jewish conspiracy. where do you get off saying i'm "making up" cartoons?")
How is this mocking the Jewish faith? Mocking Islam and Muslims are two different things, so is mocking Jews and Judaism. Just like you portray Arabs as dumb, fat, and bearded (and you can pretty much tell they're Muslim because of the "towels" and turbans on their head), we show you that the character is Jewish because of the yamaka.
So wait, if the 25 Jews in Bahrain aren't calling for censorship it means these cartoons don't exist?

Don't think these people don't have a voice, these families are incredibly powerful in Bahrain. We're not talking about your average citizens, we're talking about bank owners, bigshot writers, company managers, funny how we all know exactly who they are and no one has done anything to harm them. It's not like they're mute, they pride themselves on being Jewish and have no problem saying this in public. And you're telling me that if they found these cartoons offensive, they're not going to raise hell? Obviously you don't know shit about Bahrain and how the people there work. Obviously you just link us to other Arab countries and assume that the 'Arab press' is all just one voice, but you can't bring yourself to say 'Western press' because that would include all of Europe as well, and any shitstain out there would know better than to generalize and assume that all of these papers have similar goals and hold similar opinions. I wouldn't be surprised that you think the way you do when you talk about the 'Arab' press though (yes, 20+ countries say exactly the same shit, even in North Africa, they interpret Islam exactly the same way), since you think we're identical to Iran simply because we're situated in the "Persian Gulf."

[ziggytrix]

Perhaps some of the references depicted in the cartoons are over the head of the typical teen in these countries? I have no idea, but as a Jew I can say, the only thing comparable were the "political cartoons" which lead up to Nazi Germany.

Racism is everywhere man. And a remarkable amount of it is not directed at Jews.

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2005/06/29/PH2005062903089.jpg
http://www.iwchildren.org/resolution/airbag.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~bkrawczuk/xxxpics/sanfran1870SS.jpg
http://images.ucomics.com/comics/db/2004/db040407.gif

[Emu]

You can't use fucking Doonesbury. :rolleyes

[ScruU2wice]

The solution is to let Muslims who come to live in Western countries know that they can't demand we change our way of life and give up our freedom of speech just because they are offended by it. If we give in to this, next it will be something else, and eventually shariah law. We shouldn't let them gradually turn our societies Islamic, they should adapt to our way of life or live in an Islamic country.

See it's not impossible to sound reasonable..

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

See it's not impossible to sound reasonable..
And it took 4 fucking pages for him to finally make up his mind.

[Abcdxxxx]

Of course racism is everywhere.....don't you find it vaguely relevant that public enemy #1 in the Arab world are the Zionists? Who do they mean when they speak of Zionists? Oh wait, put a little yarmulke on the blood sucker, and it's a little more clear. 30% of Israel are not Jewish. The yarmulka wearing population of Israel are a minority. You don't need to draw on ancient stereotypes to make a political cartoon.... but that's what cartoonists do. The sentiment is an innapropriate one. Again, I'm arguing that there shouldn't be a double standard towards hypocrisy. One could also argue that the cartoons of Mohhamed telling suicide bombers he ran out of virgins is merely political.... but point is that it's offensive to Muslims for whatever reason. It's purposely incitefull.

Oh, and Fuzzbot. You come from one of the more "liberal" Arab nations, along with Qatar, and UAE... so while Bahrain isn't exempt from the same critisicism, I am in fact speaking about the entire Arab world when I mention hate speak cartoons. Though I do have to wonder.....25 Jews left...what happened to the other 75 Jews, eh?

[Pharaoh]

See it's not impossible to sound reasonable..
And it took 4 fucking pages for him to finally make up his mind.

Maybe you didn't notice, but it's the same opinion I've said all along.

Artistic representations of the human form are forbidden in Islam, and pictures of Muhammad are especially taboo. Right? In the West, however, satire is accepted and you can make caricatures of anyone. So Muslims here are demanding special treatment, and we shouldn't give in to them, if they don't like it they should leave. Why should we change our way of life to suit Muslims?

And it sounds reasonable but the problem is that Muslims won't accept those conditions, so we should refuse to let them live here. This problem is only going to get worse the more Muslims we have.
The Muslim protesters in London yesterday were praising the 7/7 London suicide bombers even though no British newspaper has printed the cartoons yet. They've only been shown briefly on TV here.

http://i1.tinypic.com/n4t8jb.jpg

http://i1.tinypic.com/n4t8o4.jpg

http://i1.tinypic.com/n4t8pt.jpg

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Oh, and Fuzzbot. You come from one of the more "liberal" Arab nations, along with Qatar, and UAE... so while Bahrain isn't exempt from the same critisicism, I am in fact speaking about the entire Arab world when I mention hate speak cartoons. Though I do have to wonder.....25 Jews left...what happened to the other 75 Jews, eh?
There never were that many Jews to begin with, and you are so utterly clueless with your sweeping generalizing statements about the 'Arab press.'

Oh wait, maybe you were referring to Iran?

Ignorant tit.

[Pub Lover]

http://i1.tinypic.com/n4t8pt.jpg
WTF? :lol

[Abcdxxxx]

As long as an apologist like you denies anti-Jewish/anti-semitism in the Arab media, at large, I see no reason NOT to make sweeping condemnations in response.

It was the Arab media that produced a 40 part mini series on the Elders of Zion, and a 29 part series devoted to the blood libels of the Jewish Diaspora "Al-Shahat".... so keep your fat hypocritical mouth shut, and stop denying it.


http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/as_arabmedia_05_04/cartoons/bahrain2_05_04.gif
Akhbar al-Kahlij, Bahrain 2004

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/as_arabmedia_05_04/cartoons/bahrain2_05_04.gif
Akhbar al-Kahlij, Bahrain 2004
They're mocking the ELECTIONS, you stupid cow. They're saying Israel is behind it, just like when Israel says that terrorists are behind our elections. Boofuckinghoo, cry me a river.

We don't make fun of the JEWISH FAITH, we make fun of JEWS, and I never denied it, you piece of shit.

[ScruU2wice]

And it sounds reasonable but the problem is that Muslims won't accept those conditions, so we should refuse to let them live here. This problem is only going to get worse the more Muslims we have.
The Muslim protesters in London yesterday were praising the 7/7 London suicide bombers even though no British newspaper has printed the cartoons yet.

Even you said that it was a minority group of the alread minority muslims that are that radical. Most muslims are living just dandy. It doesn't take the most radical muslims to be offended by the cartoons, nor is it an unexpected request that alot of muslims want the cartoons out of the paper. They don't see it as a political, they see it as religious, there is nothing about bush, sharon, saudi princes, imams, etc. It's the founder of the islamic religion, who should have nothing to do with it.

Now I told you that I don't think that they should take it out of the newspaper since it's their freedom of speech(or have put it in at all because it's tasteless and a cheap attempt at being "offensive"), but it should not be unexpected that muslim people want it out. If you think that most muslim people would crack up over this around a cup of cofee (or Tea), you really need to retain a grip on reality.

I'm not gonna say anything about psychotic people holding the signs, They are crazy and muslim people are not too fond of those guys, either.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Syrians have set fire to the Danish embassy in Damascus to protest against the publication of newspaper cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad.
Now this is fucking pushing it.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41294000/jpg/_41294880_syria_203.jpg
On some demonstration in Copenhagen today, they are going to burn the Koran.

[ziggytrix]

http://i1.tinypic.com/n4t8o4.jpg


Didn't Britain pass some law that they could deport anyone encouraging religious/ethnic violence? Most of those probably ought to be deported or at least considered under the law for punitive action.

There's a fine line between free speech and hate speech, but someone calling for 'butchering' and 'slaying' ain't even close to the 'free' side.

[Pharaoh]

Even you said that it was a minority group of the alread minority muslims that are that radical. Most muslims are living just dandy. It doesn't take the most radical muslims to be offended by the cartoons, nor is it an unexpected request that alot of muslims want the cartoons out of the paper. They don't see it as a political, they see it as religious, there is nothing about bush, sharon, saudi princes, imams, etc. It's the founder of the islamic religion, who should have nothing to do with it.

Now I told you that I don't think that they should take it out of the newspaper since it's their freedom of speech(or have put it in at all because it's tasteless and a cheap attempt at being "offensive"), but it should not be unexpected that muslim people want it out. If you think that most muslim people would crack up over this around a cup of cofee (or Tea), you really need to retain a grip on reality.

I'm not gonna say anything about psychotic people holding the signs, They are crazy and muslim people are not too fond of those guys, either.

A substantial minority of muslims here are radical, about 25%, and as the Muslim population is nearly 2 million, that's half a million radical Muslims in the UK. If it was only a small minority causing trouble then there wouldn't be editors getting sacked and top politicians apologising about the cartoons.

And I don't expect Muslims not to be offended but I do expect our media and government to defend our freedom of speech. If Muslims riot, carry hate speech banners or make death threats then they should be arrested. We shouldn't let multiculturalism errode our freedom.

[Dole]

A substantial minority of muslims here are radical, about 25%, and as the Muslim population is nearly 2 million, that's half a million radical Muslims in the UK.

and whats this based on then?

[Pharaoh]

A substantial minority of muslims here are radical, about 25%, and as the Muslim population is nearly 2 million, that's half a million radical Muslims in the UK.

and whats this based on then?

It's based on this Telegraph poll (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/23/npoll23.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/07/23/ixnewstop.html)

'One in four Muslims sympathises with motives of terrorists.'

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Wow, by Anthony King, huh? Yeah, that article sounds really reliable.

[Spectre X]

Yes, and we all know how accurate the Telegraph is.

It's an alien baby story away from being a tabloid, you simpleton.

[Pharaoh]

Yes, and we all know how accurate the Telegraph is.

It's an alien baby story away from being a tabloid, you simpleton.


The Daily Telegraph? Along with The Financial Times, The Times , The Guardian and The Independent it's one of the five quality British newspapers. It's about as far away from a tabloid as you can get.

Besides which, the poll was by YouGov, they're well respected, reliable and used by all the quality British papers.

You can read The Times article on the same poll, here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1706911_1,00.html).

'Some 32% of respondents to the poll believed “western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end�. Of these, the equivalent of some 16,000 declared themselves willing to resort to violence if necessary to achieve this.'

Try again, knucklehead.

[ziggytrix]

Does sympathy with a motive imply radicalism?

In general, I can say I sympathize with destitute people taking desperate actions without actually condoning the actions, can't I?

[Pharaoh]

Does sympathy with a motive imply radicalism?

In general, I can say I sympathize with destitute people taking desperate actions without actually condoning the actions, can't I?

I'd say that believing 'western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end' implies radicalism. And 32% of respondents to the poll believe that.

[ziggytrix]

Ah, well that's not how you said it earlier.

I think anyone who openly says they seek to end western society should not be welcome in western society, but I bet you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who disagreed with that, no matter how big a lefty they were. It's kind of a no-brainer.

[Ant10708]

Be prepared for the real Holocaust :)

[ScruU2wice]

A substantial minority of muslims here are radical, about 25%, and as the Muslim population is nearly 2 million, that's half a million radical Muslims in the UK. If it was only a small minority causing trouble then there wouldn't be editors getting sacked and top politicians apologising about the cartoons.

A paper firing an employee that they find dentremental to their business, is infact there business. and it isn't out the realm of possibilty that politicians would apologize to make the normal muslims happy that also were offended.


And I don't expect Muslims not to be offended but I do expect our media and government to defend our freedom of speech. If Muslims riot, carry hate speech banners or make death threats then they should be arrested. We shouldn't let multiculturalism errode our freedom.

Death threats and riots are illegal, but sign making isn't. I don't condone what they sayl, but hate speech is in the same branch of freedom of speech as caricatures of "how evil muslims are"

Some 32% of respondents to the poll believed “western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end�. Of these, the equivalent of some 16,000 declared themselves willing to resort to violence if necessary to achieve this.'

If you know anything about polling people you would know that to obtain results anything like that the author would not have asked that question.

but lemme also pull out some quotes from the same article

According to a YouGov poll published yesterday, some 6% of British Muslims consider the attacks were justified.

6% is alot different than 25%

Among those who hold this view, almost all go on to say that Muslims should only seek to bring about change by non-violent means but one per cent, about 16,000 individuals, declare themselves willing, possibly even eager, to embrace violence.

Thanks for leaving that part out for us..

Meanwhile, one in four British Muslims — while in no way condoning the bombers’ actions — express some understanding for the feelings and motivations that drove them to commit the crimes.

I see...

[Abcdxxxx]

Death threats and riots are illegal, but sign making isn't. I don't condone what they sayl, but hate speech is in the same branch of freedom of speech as caricatures of "how evil muslims are".

The point is, you can't respond to insensitivity by being equally as insensitive and think it's anything but ...hypocrisy. If they want to enjoy free speech, they have to tolerate the free speech of others too.
There are parts of the world where they are protected from the sin of illustrating Mohammed through an artistic rendering....and it's not the Western world.

Democracy in a Cartoon
By Ibn Warraq

Best-selling author and Muslim dissident Ibn Warraq argues that freedom of expression is our western heritage and we must defend it against attacks from totalitarian societies. If the west does not stand in solidarity with the Danish, he argues, then the Islamization of Europe will have begun in earnest.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,398853,00.html

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Why is 'it's free speech' an appropriate response when no one has called for the government to shut someone up? Why should people 'relax,' unless they are calling for someone to be arrested, which no one did? Free speech has got to be one of the most misunderstood concepts ever. The 'it's free speech so shut up' argument is a particular pet peeve of mine. It means the government can't make laws forbidding people to say something. It does not mean that private citizens cannot be upset about what someone said, challenge what they said, etc. If the freedom only applies to who spoke first, it's pretty meaningless.

As a Muslim, I'm not offended when people attack the religion or burn Korans, because I understand exactly what they are attacking. Plus, it is usually other "Muslims" or former Muslims who are doing the attacking, at least where I'm from.

However, if someone were to come along and say that ALL Muslims are extremists and/or scum-of-the-earth, I would take issue with that. Unfortunately many people make this assumption.

[ScruU2wice]

The point is, you can't respond to insensitivity by being equally as insensitive and think it's anything but ...hypocrisy. If they want to enjoy free speech, they have to tolerate the free speech of others too.

That's the point I was trying to make but from the other end.

[Abcdxxxx]

Of course the free speech argument would seem inapropriate to you, Fuzzbot They haven't called for the Government to shut someone up, they've just called for the entire Muslim world to persecute the entire Danish population. They're burning embassys, kidnapping people, and making other opportunistic threats. Yeah, we both agree it's ridiculous....so I'm unclear why you're defending their rationality. I could care less what minority of the population these extremists represent, as long as the majority of Muslims making it their priority to EXPLAIN why extremists feel the way they do. You overshadow your own stance, and give the impression you are sympathetic to their cause. You're not all extremists just like we're not all incapable of diffferentiating between criminal Muslims, without persecuting peacefull Muslims.

[Pharaoh]

The point is, you can't respond to insensitivity by being equally as insensitive and think it's anything but ...hypocrisy. If they want to enjoy free speech, they have to tolerate the free speech of others too.

That's the point I was trying to make but from the other end.

And my point, that you don't seem to understand ScruU2wice, is that how ever much Muslims riot and make death threats we shouldn't give up our freedom of speech. They can riot as much as they like for all I care, I'm not concerned about their protests, I'm concerned about our freedom of speech. If they don't like it they should stay in their Islamic countries, and if they break the law here they should be arrested.

[Chojin]

Enough lessons from these reactionary bigots!

[Abcdxxxx]

Reactionary bigots is a great way to describe the people burning down embassys, kidnapping Europeans....or better yet, killing Dutch filmmakers....all for just offending a Muslim's sensibilities. None of those are merely examples of "freedom of speech", they're crimes.....so let's put it into context. Those actions are not the moral equivalent of an artistic statement deemed to be in poor taste. Danish cartoons which slight one religion do not justify death threats.

Wake the fuck up. In your desperation to scream "not all Muslims are bad people" again and again (we agree, we agree enough already) you're arguing on the side of fascists, and violence. You're defending the argument for persecution of the Salman Rushdie's of the world....and if you're not....then stop arguing. Not all Muslims are bad....stop undermining that message by defending Islamic fascism....ESPECIALLY if it represents a fucking minority within the Islamic population.

[Slinky Ferret]

Danish cartoons which slight one religion do not justify death threats.

Exactly. It is a cartoon, a cartoon is a joke. A joke is meant to be funny. One could argue that a hell of alot of people obviously can't take a joke. But then on the other hand... you could say, well maybe they like any excuse for doing this type of thing. For example, look at the Miss World incident in Nigeria, one comment that was in fact meant to be a compliment to her beauty, became an excuse for muslims to run around butchering christians.

:( I just don't understand why they can't just do something funny back, why must they always resort to violence? I don't want to offend certain people by writing this, I just find it so hard to understand why they must retaliate in such extreme ways. It was a joke! There are cartoons in the papers every day depicting our politicians in one form or another and yet they never react by burning or kidnapping. Surely to better yourselves above those that have caused you injury is to respond in a dignified and intelligent manner?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Reactionary bigots is a great way to describe the people burning down embassys, kidnapping Europeans....or better yet, killing Dutch filmmakers....all for just offending a Muslim's sensibilities. None of those are merely examples of "freedom of speech", they're crimes.....so let's put it into context. Those actions are not the moral equivalent of an artistic statement deemed to be in poor taste. Danish cartoons which slight one religion do not justify death threats.

Wake the fuck up. In your desperation to scream "not all Muslims are bad people" again and again (we agree, we agree enough already) you're arguing on the side of fascists, and violence. You're defending the argument for persecution of the Salman Rushdie's of the world....and if you're not....then stop arguing. Not all Muslims are bad....stop undermining that message by defending Islamic fascism....ESPECIALLY if it represents a fucking minority within the Islamic population.

I like how you keep going on and on about what Muslims are doing and you haven't said a thing about the book burning yet.

You can protest or question or critique a religion without going to the extent of burning their sacred book. That action lends itself to another facet of the "freedom of speech" clause that people like to pull out so often, which is that you have freedom to speak your mind but what you don't have is the right to incite a riot or create an environment that can lead to harm or endanger the lives of others.

To that end, I see flag burning in a somewhat similar light. If someone burns the flag of a nation, it's quite a general statement. If someone burns an effigy of a leader of that nation, it sends a more direct message which can be understood.

Islam, like Christianity, has its more extreme factions. You need only review the shootings at abortion clinics in the US to know this. Look at Pat Robertson. He praises the death of people as punishment from God. He has praised the murder the abotion clinic doctors. Is that not extreme? Is that terribly far away from being related to a faction of Islam that calls for the death of those who debase their beliefs?

Islam has millions of followers all over the world. Millions and millions. Is it safe to say that if muslims were truly a blood-thirsty crazed bunch of lunatics that we'd see a whole hell of a lot more violence?

Burning a book makes a very final statement about the people as a whole. And at the end of the day, just because you have the "right" to do something, that doesn't mean you should do it.

[Spectre X]

Yes, and we all know how accurate the Telegraph is.

It's an alien baby story away from being a tabloid, you simpleton.


The Daily Telegraph? Along with The Financial Times, The Times , The Guardian and The Independent it's one of the five quality British newspapers. It's about as far away from a tabloid as you can get.

Besides which, the poll was by YouGov, they're well respected, reliable and used by all the quality British papers.

You can read The Times article on the same poll, here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1706911_1,00.html).

'Some 32% of respondents to the poll believed “western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end�. Of these, the equivalent of some 16,000 declared themselves willing to resort to violence if necessary to achieve this.'

Try again, knucklehead.

This Telegraph, is this the Telegraph that is distributed world-wide?

Because that one really is only an alien baby story away from an ordinary tabloid.

[Spectre X]

Danish cartoons which slight one religion do not justify death threats.

Exactly. It is a cartoon, a cartoon is a joke. A joke is meant to be funny. One could argue that a hell of alot of people obviously can't take a joke. But then on the other hand... you could say, well maybe they like any excuse for doing this type of thing. For example, look at the Miss World incident in Nigeria, one comment that was in fact meant to be a compliment to her beauty, became an excuse for muslims to run around butchering christians.

:( I just don't understand why they can't just do something funny back, why must they always resort to violence? I don't want to offend certain people by writing this, I just find it so hard to understand why they must retaliate in such extreme ways. It was a joke! There are cartoons in the papers every day depicting our politicians in one form or another and yet they never react by burning or kidnapping. Surely to better yourselves above those that have caused you injury is to respond in a dignified and intelligent manner?

They were pretty crappy cartoons, though.

If anyone wanted to mock my religion I'd appreciate it if they'd actually put some effort into it, rather than use a bunch of childish pictures meant to cause controversy.

[ScruU2wice]

And my point, that you don't seem to understand ScruU2wice, is that how ever much Muslims riot and make death threats we shouldn't give up our freedom of speech. They can riot as much as they like for all I care, I'm not concerned about their protests, I'm concerned about our freedom of speech. If they don't like it they should stay in their Islamic countries, and if they break the law here they should be arrested.

I told you that I agreed with you that they should stay.twice.

But the muslims who aren't on the same page as me see it as not exercising freedom of speech, but delibaratly insulting their faith. They don't see the journalists going "Hey you know what we don't agree with this cartoonist point of view, or we do, but the overall message we are trying to send is that as a newspaper we can print whatever we want", the people that are rioting and causing the chaos are hearing "Hey dude what should we do to piss of Muslim people and belittle their religion? print Cartoons with the prophet mohammad? sounds cool. Woah these cartoons fucking suck, but as long as some muslims get mad we can say that we won a battle agains the deviant religion of Islam. Serious braw this is the best idea we had since flushing a koran down the toilet in gitmo."

[ScruU2wice]

They were pretty crappy cartoons, though.

If anyone wanted to mock my religion I'd appreciate it if they'd actually put some effort into it, rather than use a bunch of childish pictures meant to cause controversy.

That's my beef with it, I've lost respect for the danish just because the only one that was funny was the virgins one, and that like out of 12

[sadie]

lol. you've lost your respect for all danish people because of some cartoons?

[Sethomas]

That's right, all nine of them.

[ziggytrix]

Exactly. It is a cartoon, a cartoon is a joke. A joke is meant to be funny.

Then why was only one of them even remotely funny? That's my biggest beef with the Dutch cartoonists. Their sense of humor sucks balls!

Isn't FS Danish? I bet if they'd let him do the cartoons the Muslims would be LOLing in the streets. :(

edit: I need to read all the replies before replying :(

[Sethomas]

No, he's Dutch. Their languages look the same but are totally different when you actually study them. Culturally, The Netherlands are the punk dykes of Europe, whereas Denmark wishes it were still part of Sweden.

[ziggytrix]

My grandad once told me the Dutch soldiers would get all defensive if you called them 'Dutch' during WW2. They'd say "No, is Hollanders!" I guess cuz 'Dutch' sounded too much like 'Deutsch'.

How do you get 'Dutch' from 'Netherlands' anyway? They never talked about that in Geography.

[Sethomas]

I've wondered that myself. It's probably derived from the same word as "Teutonic", which I bet if you go back far enough is the root for "deutsch". That's why the Pennsylvania Dutch all spoke German.

[pjalne]

Dutch and Deutsch come from the same word, which meant something like "common" or "domestic" (as opposed to "alien" or "foreign"). A lot of names for cultures, languages or nationalities out there really translate to "the people".

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodisca

[Spectre X]

Exactly. It is a cartoon, a cartoon is a joke. A joke is meant to be funny.

Then why was only one of them even remotely funny? That's my biggest beef with the Dutch cartoonists. Their sense of humor sucks balls!

Isn't FS Danish? I bet if they'd let him do the cartoons the Muslims would be LOLing in the streets. :(

edit: I need to read all the replies before replying :(

Actually Dutch cartoonists are pretty fucking funny.

The Danes suck at it, though.

[ziggytrix]

shut yer nationalist piehole. yer all wooden shoes and viking hats to me!

[Abcdxxxx]

Of all the crazy posts I've read on this forum, I don't think I've once ever seen anyone try and explain the motives of an abortion clinic bombing, or defend Chrisitians who do that sort of thing in the "name of the book".

Did they actually burn the Koran, or just threaten to? I don't know, I'm not defending it, I'm just a bit preoccupied with the other burnings going on. Like buildings.

How did they get that many Danish flags in the Middle East so quickly anyway?

Anyway, knowing they're introducing blasphomy legislation in the Netherlands and knowing Theo Van Gogh was murdered for making a movie that offended Muslims means their threats aren't simply figures of speech.

[ScruU2wice]

lol. you've lost your respect for all danish people because of some cartoons?

Unless they invented the danish I didn't have any respect to lose.

they almost lost me with the cheese danish too...

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Of all the crazy posts I've read on this forum, I don't think I've once ever seen anyone try and explain the motives of an abortion clinic bombing, or defend Chrisitians who do that sort of thing in the "name of the book".
I don't think that's half as crazy as someone confusing a Kingdom for a city in Iran.
Did they actually burn the Koran, or just threaten to?
They apparently gathered around with a bunch of Korans, attempting to burn it, before the cops showed up and threw like a 100 of them behind bars for a day or something. So, no, I don't think they've actually burned it.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Great.

These cartoons are being sold as T-Shirts now. (http://www.shopmetrospy.com/)

[Abcdxxxx]

I don't think that's half as crazy as someone confusing a Kingdom for a city in Iran.

I'm glad Iran was never, ever a Kingdom (cough), or you might sound about as dumb as you did when you claimed Al-Banna reached out in peace to the non-existant Jewish citizens of Jordan.



Two Jordan editors are arrested
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4680948.stm

"Muslims of the world be reasonable," wrote Mr Momani.

"What brings more prejudice against Islam, these caricatures or pictures of a hostage-taker slashing the throat of his victim in front of the cameras or a suicide bomber who blo

[ScruU2wice]

I don't think the muslims who do those things care about how the world sees them or islam, as I've said before, they just know that someone insulted their religion and concurrently them so they think it's free reign to go nuts.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I don't think that's half as crazy as someone confusing a Kingdom for a city in Iran.

I'm glad Iran was never, ever a Kingdom (cough)
I LOVE watching you try to hold your own back but failing miserably whenever I bring this up. The fact that you will never, ever admit to your utter ignorance of the basic geography of the region you claim to be an expert on says a lot about you.

If you knew your history, which you definitely don't, you'd understand the al-Banna reference. Look it up. [Yes, that means find a book.]

[Abcdxxxx]

There is utterly no logic to your Al-Banna reference, short of bullshit proganda. You were bragging about how great Muslims get along with outside religions, and used the birth of Al-Banna's Islamic supremacist movement as an example. I don't care what book you read about it in. I haven't seen you admit you made an error, and you're the one who keeps reducing these conversations down to a pissing contest.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

There is utterly no logic to your Al-Banna reference, short of bullshit proganda. You were bragging about how great Muslims get along with outside religions, and used the birth of Al-Banna's Islamic supremacist movement as an example. I don't care what book you read about it in. I haven't seen you admit you made an error, and you're the one who keeps reducing these conversations down to a pissing contest.
So you admit that you don't know anything about his early traditional religious education and how it was combined with some exposure to modernist thought and how it influenced Jordan and its neighbouring countries regarding their treatment of those of different religions?

[Abcdxxxx]

it was combined with some exposure to modernist thought and how it influenced Jordan

You mean seperatism?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

My, my.

Recommended reading for "Letter Boy:"

"Political Islam: Revolution, Radicalism, or Reform" by John L. Esposito

"Muslims on the Americanization Path?" by Yvonne Yazbeck Haddad.

Both will enlighten on what I'm talking about, which you don't seem to get at all.

[Preechr]

kitty's got claws.

[Abcdxxxx]

You've named the two books you credit for brainwashing you, now try and articulate your point. John L. Esposito is regarded as one of the worlds biggest apologists for militant Islam, and Al-Banna is considered one of histories top anti-semites, period. So are these name drops intentionally loaded full of shit, or are you just ignorant?

Al-banna's greatest influence on modern Muslims in Jordan was SEPERATISM. How many Jews live legally in Jordan ?

Al-banna's greatest influence on Muslims of the Middle East was theocratic nationalism based on Shari'a style "Muslim values" by fighting secularized/westernized society, resulting in the persecution of Non-Muslims, region wide. He is a founding father of politicized Islamic extremism.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

You've named the two books you credit for brainwashing you, now try and articulate your point. John L. Esposito is regarded as one of the worlds biggest apologists for militant Islam, and Al-Banna is considered one of histories top anti-semites, period. So are these name drops intentionally loaded full of shit, or are you just ignorant?

Al-banna's greatest influence on modern Muslims in Jordan was SEPERATISM. How many Jews live legally in Jordan ?

Al-banna's greatest influence on Muslims of the Middle East was theocratic nationalism based on Shari'a style "Muslim values" by fighting secularized/westernized society, resulting in the persecution of Non-Muslims, region wide. He is a founding father of politicized Islamic extremism.

Get your ugly face out of your fat ass and start READING books instead of dismissing everything as "bullshit," you don't know what I'm talking about, I suggest you fucking research it.

For the sake of this fucking discussion.

How many Jews legally live in Jordan?

By Charles A. Radin, Globe Staff | September 22, 2005

WASHINGTON -- Convening an unprecedented meeting between a Muslim head of state and Jewish religious leaders, King Abdullah II of Jordan urged Jews and Muslims yesterday to ''take bold steps toward mutual forgiveness and reconciliation" to counteract extremist violence produced by distortion of religion.


You think the King would kick Jews out or allow them to be mistreated had he made that statement?

[Abcdxxxx]

How many Jews legally live in Jordan?


You think the King would kick Jews out or allow them to be mistreated had he made that statement?

And you're telling ME to read a book? Why don't you answer your own question, and elaborate, for the people, eh?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

And you're telling ME to read a book?
Whoa, there. That's just way too much to ask for.

[davinxtk]

Great.

These cartoons are being sold as T-Shirts now. (http://www.shopmetrospy.com/)

The cartoons might suck but I'm buying BORDER PATROL t-shirts for the illegal brazilians in my kitchen at work :D

[Abcdxxxx]

Are you incapable of providing an answer?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Are you incapable of providing an answer?
Not as much as you're incapable of picking up a book*

*A set of written, printed, or blank pages fastened along one side and encased between protective covers.

[Abcdxxxx]

By Charles A. Radin, Globe Staff | September 22, 2005

WASHINGTON -- Convening an unprecedented meeting between a Muslim head of state and Jewish religious leaders, King Abdullah II of Jordan urged Jews and Muslims yesterday to ''take bold steps toward mutual forgiveness and reconciliation" to counteract extremist violence produced by distortion of religion.


You think the King would kick Jews out or allow them to be mistreated had he made that statement?


Jews are not allowed to become citizens of Jordan. The only Jews he could kick out are visitors, and diplomats. So what the fuck h ave you been talking about? You can start with Al-Banna, since you claimed he was an example of good relations between Jews and Muslims. Go on, Mister moderate.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Jews are not allowed to become citizens of Jordan. The only Jews he could kick out are visitors, and diplomats. So what the fuck h ave you been talking about? You can start with Al-Banna, since you claimed he was an example of good relations between Jews and Muslims. Go on, Mister moderate.
You see, that's what you don't get. People LEARNED from al-Banna's claims and mistakes, that's the whole point I was making, I never once stated that he was an example to prove 'good.' I was stating the opposite. It's like how many of us learned from Abdul Wahab's stupidity, that he makes us realize good things about ourselves through being hateful and generally stupid.

Read the books I suggested, or go back and see the other recommendations I made if you're not so fond of Esposito, you'll understand his influence.

[Abcdxxxx]

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/as_arabmedia_05_04/cartoons/bahrain2_05_04.gif
Akhbar al-Kahlij, Bahrain 2004

We don't make fun of the JEWISH FAITH, we make fun of JEWS, and I never denied it, you piece of shit.


A menorah is one of the oldest symbols of the JEWISH FAITH.

[Abcdxxxx]

People LEARNED from al-Banna's claims and mistakes, that's the whole point I was making, I never once stated that he was an example to prove 'good.'


That explains why Hamas are so succesfull then. They learned from his mistakes. Don't trip on yourself. Let me refresh your memory what you said.




Really not a great story to use as an example of tolerance or how Jews are your cousins.

It fits perfectly - Kulturasdfsdfkampf said we HATE Jews, pretty much, and we don't accept them because of their beliefs. The Hadith I referred to shows how forgiving, accepting, and understanding the Prophet is. That is how Muslims should be, therefore, thinking of Jews as our enemies and not our cousins is incredibly wrong, because that's how the Prophet did it, and we should follow his example.

Why don't you look up the history of Yemen and the presence of Christianity there, amongst Islam? Why don't you look up the history of Jordan and look at the presence of Judaism there, amongst Islam?

Why are you bringing up Jordan

When I talked about Jordan I was talking about Al Banna's Islamization project.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Let me refresh your memory what you said.
Where did I say it was a good thing? If anything, it confirms what I already said in my previous post.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

A menorah is one of the oldest symbols of the JEWISH FAITH.
It's a symbol representative of Jews, I don't see how it makes fun of the Jewish faith itself. It's like making fun of how certain people practice Islam rather than attacking the religion itself. We are often made fun of with the way we pull our hands towards the sky and pray to God, I don't get offended with such jokes because it's not like they're attacking the prophet or what's in the Koran.

[Abcdxxxx]

Dude, cut it out. The contest is very clear, and you thought Jordan was a model example of Jewish-Muslim co-existance. You even questioned why the King of Jordan would kick out the Jews which don't even exist !

Secondly, a Menorah has nothing to do with Secular Jews or Israel's government. It doesn't even have anything to do with Zionists. It's not a political symbol. A Menorah is purely a religious symbol.


While you're still trying to decide if you're going to be a hypocrite or an apologists, today....read this :


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3212064,00.html

Iran presents: Holocaust cartoon contest
Leading newspaper presents contest in response to cartoons disparaging Muhammad
Roee Nahmias

Iran's most popular daily newspaper, Hamshahri, is set to initiate a Holocaust cartoon contest in what it says is a response to cartoons disparaging Islam's prophet Muhammad published in a Danish newspaper.

"This will be an international cartoon competition on the topic of the Holocaust," said Farid Mortazawi, the paper's graphic editor.

The editor added the newspaper intends to fight back by claiming the publication of Holocaust cartoons is done in the name of freedom of expression.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

"Western newspapers published these caricatures, which constitute desecration, under the pretense of freedom of expression," he said. "Let's see if they mean what they say once we publish Holocaust caricatures."

Can I break some windows over it, maybe burn some buildings? I hope so.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Dude, cut it out. The contest is very clear, and you thought Jordan was a model example of Jewish-Muslim co-existance.
You just don't fucking get it, do you? You really, seriously, honestly, don't. And I wish you'd fucking zip your mouth shut until you educate yourself further when it comes to al-Banna and his infleunce in Jordan.
Can I break some windows over it, maybe burn some buildings? I hope so.
I hope you do, perhaps the world might see that Muslims aren't the only people who are capable of such a violent reaction.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Yeah, but I probably won't, which is sort of the problem.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I guess you're just not as bored as some of these Muslims are with their abysmal, empty lives.

[Abcdxxxx]

And I wish you'd fucking zip your mouth shut until you educate yourself further when it comes to al-Banna and his infleunce in Jordan.

Well apparently you're not going to "educate" me with cryptic references and an amazon.com wish list. Besides, it's pretty apparent you don't have a fucking clue what's going on in Jordan. Or in the Arab media.

I do have to say though....you win apologist of the year with that whole "Muslims killed six people over cartoons because they're bored" excuse.

[Ant10708]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict there will be no buildings burnt down over the Holocaust cartoons.

I hope they are funnier than the ones getting the Islamics all angry.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Well apparently you're not going to "educate" me with cryptic references and an amazon.com wish list. Besides, it's pretty apparent you don't have a fucking clue what's going on in Jordan. Or in the Arab media.

I do have to say though....you win apologist of the year with that whole "Muslims killed six people over cartoons because they're bored" excuse.

Please keep saying this to yourself while attempting to knock some sense into your concrete head, I'm sure it helps you sleep at night.

[Pharaoh]

Yes, and we all know how accurate the Telegraph is.

It's an alien baby story away from being a tabloid, you simpleton.


The Daily Telegraph? Along with The Financial Times, The Times , The Guardian and The Independent it's one of the five quality British newspapers. It's about as far away from a tabloid as you can get.

Besides which, the poll was by YouGov, they're well respected, reliable and used by all the quality British papers.

You can read The Times article on the same poll, here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1706911_1,00.html).

'Some 32% of respondents to the poll believed “western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end�. Of these, the equivalent of some 16,000 declared themselves willing to resort to violence if necessary to achieve this.'

Try again, knucklehead.

This Telegraph, is this the Telegraph that is distributed world-wide?

Because that one really is only an alien baby story away from an ordinary tabloid.

How about this new poll from The Times then?

'Nearly two fifths (37 per cent) believe that the Jewish community in Britain is a legitimate target “as part of the ongoing struggle for justice in the Middle East�. Moreover, only 52 per cent think that the state of Israel has the right to exist, with 30 per cent disagreeing, a big minority. One in six of all Muslims questioned thinks suicide bombings can sometimes be justified in Israel, though many fewer (7 per cent) say the same about Britain. This is broadly comparable to the number justifying suicide attacks in ICM and YouGov polls of British Muslims after the July 7 attacks.'
Link here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,171-2028033,00.html)

This is a totally different poll, and yet still 7% of British Muslims think suicide attacks on British civillians here are justified. That's about 100,000 UK Muslims. You can't say that's a small minority, it's a a big problem and it's getting bigger. We can't let these people dictate to us how we should live, they want to destroy us.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

they want to destroy us.
oh SHIT dude, run for the hillz

[Pharaoh]

That's just what I don't want us to do fuzzbot, I us want to stand up for our freedom of speech and make them run back Pakistan or wherever.
Why should we take any notice of people who hate us?

[Dole]

make them run back Pakistan or wherever

classy

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Why should we take any notice of people who hate us?
Take Nick Griffin's route and declare GENOCIDE for God's sake! What are you waiting for?!

[ScruU2wice]

Pharaoh, I don't think you even know any muslim people and I think that there's a huge majority of Muslim people that just wanna live and it's getting pretty damn near impossible with the very open Pakistani racism in the UK.

You take polls and extrapulate it to a group of 1.6 million people and pick out number like there as solid a stone pillar. You look at polls wanting to see a reason to kick out muslim people, leaving parts out and taking things out of context. You try to find a reason why you want the muslim people out of your country and you say it's Islam. You keep saying that they are the biggots. And when anyone questions you, you throw the blanket comment of "liberal lefty" or "PC fruitcake"

You try to stir up fear of Sharia law when the muslims you are scared of are 1.6 million out 50 million people living in the country, that means that even if every single muslim in the country voted for such laws (keep in mind many came to england just to leave those laws behind) it would only take 4% of the Non-Muslim population to over throw it.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

AH! What is this? Moderate Muslims apologizing for the nutcases who decided to riot and set fire to toilets? Unbelievable. They're full of shit, Letter Boy! It's a conspiracy! Watch out!

http://www.sorrynorwaydenmark.com/

[Abcdxxxx]

Well I don't see you, Fuzzbot, taking nearly as rational of a position...

... that said, don't you think it's opportunistic that with every apology, or condemnation of radical Muslims, comes with a name drop, supporting the Palestinian cause?

How are the two related, huh, Moderate Muslim world !?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

... that said, don't you think it's opportunistic that with every apology, or condemnation of radical Muslims, comes with a name drop, supporting the Palestinian cause?
Dear Diary,

It's Letter Boy again. Man, I saw a website where a bunch of Muslims apologized for their behavior, and I figured these fucks are just supporting Palestine, who needed to be crushed to begin with. They don't call us the incredible hulks for nothing, y'know?

Am I happy to group them all under the same catagory? Yes. Do I look stupid calling everyone who attempts to educate me on a religion I know shit about an "apologist"? Yes.

Do I feel bad doing it? No. Why would I feel bad? It's not our fault that we're better than everyone else.

Yours,
ABCD...(can you guess the rest?)

PS - The Israelis invented instant messaging, they should go ahead and claim the entire land. They deserve it. I don't know about you, diary, but I can't live without the greatest contribution to the internet, which happens to be my only source for information.
PPS - My fucking pinky nail stabs me in the palm whenever I try to write. They should invent nail clippers or something. Oh wait. THE ISRAELIS ALREADY DID!

[Abcdxxxx]

Wouldn't that energy have been better spent reaching out to your Muslim brothers and telling them to stop acting like maniacs? Stop caring what the Kafirs think, and wash your own ass. Oh, I know, when in doubt, critisize the Jews! Aren't you a cliche.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Dear Diary,

Today I was rope-skipping my way to the nearest public toilet when I saw a bunch of guys yelling and giving each other high fives, and I figured they were Muslim. Guess what? Turned out I was right. I walked to one of the guys and said, "You think you can fucking beat me? Huh? Come over here and try, you think you can fucking beat me, go ahead, I'm right here, your best punch, buddy, your best fucking punch, my face is right here. Pussy. Go ahead. I'm right here, you wanna fucking beat me? I'm right here."

Needless to say, he walked away.

Victory has always been mine, diary. Always and forever. If he dared to even look at me in the eyes and "apologize" for existing, I would've smothered him with my leather bag.

That's how Israel would've handled a Middle Eastern crisis, you know. They turn those Arabs into puff pasteries and eat them right up. With what, I hear you ask? Jam, you suggest? Guess what, diary? THE ISRAELIS DISCOVERED JAM.

Yours,
ABCDetc.

[Abcdxxxx]

Hmm, yea that would have been funny had you not recommended a book to me yesterday written by a woman who gave this response when asked about a Muslim Football league with teams named "Intifadah, Mujahadeen, and Soldiers of Alaah" and logos of men wearing hoods:

"'Who cares? Why are people so sensitive?' said Yvonne Yazbeck Haddad, a professor at Georgetown University. 'Intifada is something that Muslims and Palestinians all approve of. It means "just get off my back." Is the only way we accept [Muslims] is if we devalue their faith?' (from "Taking the intifadah to the Football field" December 7, 2003, LA Times)

Big shock, the Georgetown University Islamic studies center was recently renamed the Prince Alwaleed bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Underdstanding, after the Wahhabist Saudi Prince donor, who also happens to be the largest single donor to Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, and the Saudi's "Jihad Palestine" telethon.

What happened to the Moderate? You certainly are conflicted and Fuzzy.

[ScruU2wice]

I totally agree with that website, but I laughed at the url,



It's going to be the bulletin for anyone who ever wants to apologize to Norway or Denmark, ever.. :(

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Dear Diary,

'Tis ABC again. Boy do I feel refreshed today. New day for a new beginning, eh? There will never, ever be a new beginning until all Muslims wake up to the reality that they need to be shot in the head with a twin bee. For as long as there are Muslims in the world, especially those who hold on to their beliefs, their roots and their identity, there will always be lots of trouble. Big trouble. HUGE.

What this world needs is more Jews. If we replaced all Muslims with Jews, we would have been so smart and ambitious that we might've taken over Jupiter by now. Funny, Jupiter starts with J which is the first letter of the word 'Jew,' which I think is really interesting. I think it means, "Don't discover this planet, unless you're Jewish."

Peace would be possible if there was no propoganda. And propoganda is only produced in the Arab media, hence their utter (and unnecessary) hatred towards us. I'd include Iran as part of the 'Arab media' just because I can, too. I think the media laws in all of the Arab countries are identicial, and if you disagree with this then you are obviously misinformed and wrong.

Such freaks, you know. They take what their media say so seriously, and what's this thing about being more freedom in the press? No way, I read the Koran and it says that people should be stripped away from all the rights that should be given to us, and that ARE given to us if you're Jewish or live in a Western country (without being attached, in any way, to Muslims or Islam.)

Anyways, I've talked enough I think (I think a lot, and that's my problem, my mother says I'm too smart for this world. This is a fact and not just her personal opinion.)

Yours,
ABC (or LB, if you like.)

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Oh, I know, when in doubt, critisize the Jews! Aren't you a cliche.

I think it is rather telling that they view the Holocaust as somehow the opposite of mocking Mohammed. Those pesky Jews are behind this Danish plot, I just know it!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I think this one (http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/AELcartoon1.jpg) might be the big winner in Tehran, btw.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Something else that might be of interest in this debate:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0...1480744,00.html

If you need any encouragement to check it out, it relates to this picture of Jesus:

http://www.dw-world.de/image/0,,481592_1,00.jpg (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1480744,00.html)

[KevinTheOmnivore]

"The book has been published in Austria, Germany, France, Portugal, the Czech Republic, Hungary and South Korea. In some countries, it has sparked protests and a Czech lawmaker wanted the author fined. But in no other country has the book been banned."

Contrast this to the riots, destruction, and death threats going on throughout the Islamic world, and this serves as a pretty poor example for your argument.

The fact that this guy is facing jail time in Greece is absurd, I'll grant you that. But it doesn't quite compare.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

and this serves as a pretty poor example for your argument.
And what was my argument in the first place? "This is wrong." Was I making excuses for their behavior? No. I already admitted to the fact that they were grossly overreacting and I even used another example (what happened in Holland) to back my statement up. I brought this merely for the sake of discussion, I'm not saying, "Hey look! It's not just the Muslims!"

But when a moron concludes that this is the result of Islam, that's when things get retarded. It has everything to do with these people's culture and upbringing, and nothing to do with their personal beliefs. I consider myself a devout Muslim, but never in my life would I dare to threaten someone with violence especially over something so pitiful like this. I would defend my faith and my prophet, place him in the highest platform and leave it at that. 65 people in Bahrain were the only ones protesting. 65. And they, too, made the news, giving everyone the impression that all of Bahrain was reacting as badly. Guess what? Most of these people were street kids who were just happy to find a reason to riot and yell at shit. Members of parliament are burning flags to take the attention off of them, since they were being heavily critisized.

I think that should say something about those who blindly assume it's "Islam!" and not just the stupidity of the few. This goes for "terrorism" in general, as well. The website I provided earlier which apologized to Denmark and Norway actually represents the opinions of the majority.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

and this serves as a pretty poor example for your argument.
And what was my argument in the first place? "This is wrong." Was I making excuses for their behavior? No. I already admitted to the fact that they were grossly overreacting and I even used another example (what happened in Holland) to back my statement up. I brought this merely for the sake of discussion, I'm not saying, "Hey look! It's not just the Muslims!"

Sorry, it just seemed like that was the implication. You contributed it to the debate, so I took it the wrong way.

So then let's discuss it-- what does this example in Greece say? How does it compare to what's going on in the Middle East???

Guess what? Most of these people were street kids who were just happy to find a reason to riot and yell at shit. Members of parliament are burning flags to take the attention off of them, since they were being heavily critisized.

I think that should say something about those who blindly assume it's "Islam!" and not just the stupidity of the few. This goes for "terrorism" in general, as well.

I think you're right, that it is a little bit of Islam, a little bit of tyranny, poverty, and all that stuff. I guess maybe the world would like to see perhaps a louder condemnation of that tiny, vocal minority.

The website I provided earlier which apologized to Denmark and Norway actually represents the opinions of the majority.

How do you know this? I think you're right, that no country or faith should be judged simply for what a vocal minority does, but I think the response by the press in Tehran is a fine example of the silent majority just not "getting it."

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

So then let's discuss it-- what does this example in Greece say? How does it compare to what's going on in the Middle East???
It's exactly the same issue. Jyllands Posten had discussed to print previous cartoons they'd brought of Jesus and the star of David etc., but has dropped the plans. This is one of the previous ones:

http://i2-images.tv2.dk/s/48/727048-a180509316f62390868329a8a5c54c22.jpeg

[Abcdxxxx]

"The caricatures amounted to a "conspiracy by Zionists who were angry because of the victory of Hamas," he said, referring to the Palestinian militant group that won a surprise landslide victory in last month's elections." From "Iran Leader Denounces Prophet Cartoons"
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060207/ap/d8fk8db80.html


This one is extra funny because the cartoons were printed in September, Egypt reprinted them in October without any riots, and the elections happened FOUR MONTHS LATER in December.

Anyway, there is evidence this entire thing was provoked by the Danish Imams. http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004505.htm

So, okay, if you argue that the cartoons offense is specifically religious, and the reaction is merely political, that's fine....but how can one say it's misleading to claim this is non-representative of Muslims, when for a fact, that IS the representation for the majority of Islam. I don't think it's a question, obviously the majority of Muslims are opposed to this, but does their representation reflect their feelings, and has moderate Islam stopped it? There are plenty of poverty stricken, oppressed people in the world who are peacefull. Why is it these things are only happening to this extent, in one specific culture? If it's not the "result of Islam" then okay, who is it a result of ?

[ScruU2wice]

So, okay, if you argue that the cartoons offense is specifically religious, and the reaction is merely political, that's fine....but how can one say it's misleading to claim this is non-representative of Muslims, when for a fact, that IS the representation for the majority of Islam. I don't think it's a question, obviously the majority of Muslims are opposed to this, but does their representation reflect their feelings, and has moderate Islam stopped it? There are plenty of poverty stricken, oppressed people in the world who are peacefull. Why is it these things are only happening to this extent, in one specific culture? If it's not the "result of Islam" then okay, who is it a result of ?

Yeah that's why haiti is the paradise it is, It's Islam that causes riots.

The majority of the millions of muslims aren't throwing bricks and molotv cocktails and I don't see how you can blame moderate muslims for not stopping them, riots aren't exactly something that have an on/off switch, do the people who are setting fires look they are responding to reason? Since we practice the religion it's our duty to stand infront of rioters and oppose them? Do people who are boycotting everything danish seem like they aren't completely brainwashed into hating anything that oppose it's views

There is no easy answer to why these people are acting like this. There are books upon books on the subject of middle eastern/ western relations. If you think this is only about the cartoons you have no idea what you're talking about.

Forgive me if I'm a bit edgy, but it just seems to me anytime anyone brings anything up about muslims you constantly proclaim that Islam is an inherently flawed religion

[ziggytrix]

I read something in yesterdays WSJ that pretty much traced most of this shit back to one radical in Denmark. He went so far with his "let's get Muslims rield up at the Danes" act as to include ADDITIONAL cartoons which were never ran in the paper, including one picture of a pig with a caption of "This is the REAL picture of Mohammed" in the propaganda he distrubuted in the Middle East.

A Call for Civility: Both sides out of line over Danish cartoons


05:22 AM CST on Tuesday, February 7, 2006

ADanish newspaper delivered a totally insensitive insult with its call last fall for cartoonists to draw pictures of the prophet Muhammad. Such depictions violate Muslim law, and the newspaper had proposed the assignment to test whether cartoonists would censor themselves.

Now, months after publication, radical Islamists have used this ridiculous cartoon experiment as an excuse to manipulate violent political demonstrations and destruction across Europe and the Middle East.

The provocation – almost a "let's kick the anthill and see what happens" mentality – and the virulent, deadly protests that have followed show both sides at their worst.

We agree with the many who say the radicals' behavior is indefensible. In fact, in Iraq, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani suggested that militant Muslims are distorting Islam's image. In the U.S., the Council on American-Islamic Relations said, "Everyone has the right to peacefully protest defamatory attacks on their religious figures, but protesters should not reinforce existing stereotypes by resorting to violence or inflammatory rhetoric."

We're also outraged by the Danish newspaper's childish stunt, just as we are by toxic depictions of Jews and Christians in extremist Muslim publications and schools. All must end, because such behavior fosters a climate of hate and religious intolerance.

That's why this editorial board sees this nasty mess not so much as a free speech issue as about respect for religious sensibilities and the need to embrace the idea of discourse over carnage.

We recognize that Europe remains shaken by the brutal murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh for defaming Islam in 2004. And, like much of Europe, Denmark is confronting snarly issues as a result of growing Muslim populations.

But there's no humor or purpose in mindlessly provoking religious discord. Nor is there justification for turning an insult into an opportunity for fiery, hostile rampages.

We'll never accomplish anything until both sides quit kicking the anthill.


(emphasis mine)

Hey ABC, is that more moral equivocation? Cuz that's exactly how I feel about this whole damn thing. >:

[Abcdxxxx]

riots aren't exactly something that have an on/off switch

No, they take four months of planning, and clerics inciting the violence.

Since we practice the religion it's our duty to stand infront of rioters and oppose them?

What bothers you more? Islam being blamed, or crimes against humanity done in the name of Islam ? Do it for the sanctity of your own religion at the very least.


There is no easy answer to why these people are acting like this. There are books upon books on the subject of middle eastern/ western relations.

You're right, it's obviously not about cartoons...or land.... or any of that shit. So, honestly? I don't give a shit WHY they act like that. I don't want to understand the motivation, or extend tolerance towards militant radicals or their symphethisers. I read far more explanations for the violence then condemnations. I don't find these events a healthy entree to discussion, and better understanding. I JUST WANT CRIMINAL AND VIOLENT BEHAVIOR TO STOP!

Forgive me if I'm a bit edgy, but it just seems to me anytime anyone brings anything up about muslims you constantly proclaim that Islam is an inherently flawed religion

Forgive me if I come down harsh on Muslims, but my own people are Islamofascist Enemy #1.

[ScruU2wice]

No, they take four months of planning, and clerics inciting the violence.

That's exactly what makes it politically motivated, It had to be hyped and propogated by clerics. It's not written in the Koran that if someone insults Allah or Mohammad, that you need to riot and go fucking nuts. It's the fault of the people, not the religion.

What bothers you more? Islam being blamed, or crimes against humanity done in the name of Islam ? Do it for the sanctity of your own religion at the very least.

How? Is my soothing voice of reason going to calm the tempers of years of edgy relations. I am downright denouncing these action and so are moderate muslims. There is nothing else we can do.


You're right, it's obviously not about cartoons...or land.... or any of that shit. So, honestly? I don't give a shit WHY they act like that. I don't want to understand the motivation, or extend tolerance towards militant radicals or their symphethisers. I read far more explanations for the violence then condemnations. I don't find these events a healthy entree to discussion, and better understanding. I JUST WANT CRIMINAL AND VIOLENT BEHAVIOR TO STOP!

I only quoted this for completeness

Forgive me if I come down harsh on Muslims, but my own people are Islamofascist Enemy #1.

That certainly makes it right for you to always condemn Islam, every time you get a chance. No matter how many muslims dislike jews, they still have to consider it a valid religion. Seeing as we believe that the Jews and Christians are people of the Book. We also believe that Moses was a prophet of God. And we believe that Abraham built the Kabbah.

Regardless of what muslims believe about other religions, It doesn't give youa blank check to make claims that Islam the religion is wrong because Muslim people aren't in love with the jews.

[Abcdxxxx]

1) I haven't said the religion is wrong, I've said it's being practiced in a manner which is wrong. Which is essentially what you've said.

2) Why should we seperate the religion from it's followers? Especially when the moderates themselves refuse to seperate the more extremist followers in question, from the religion ? My only interest in Islam is as it's practiced. If these issues could be pinpointed to say, the Wahhabists, I'd refer to Wahhabists, but that's not the case.

3) I don't dispute that the Koran says nice things about Jews and Christians...but the lack of Jews and Christians in Islamic nations overshadows that. The Koran also says that Israel should belong to Jews.... but few Muslims ever evoke that argument.

[ScruU2wice]

You can't just filter out people you don't want in your religion. They are practicing all the other forms of the religion right, but they are just being ridiculously violent. It's no fault but the people who are rioting, and the twisted politics they are being used in.

[Abcdxxxx]

We don't fault you for the actions of another, we fault you for your REACTION, and RESPONSE.

Why should I care if they're good observant Muslims? You want ME to create a seperation between the religion and the politicized religion, when that seperation does not exist, even in your mind. You seem to identify with our criticism of these people just the same, and feel the need to defend your religion in the process. Why?

You want us to recognize the vast majority of citizens are upstanding and peacefull right? I do. They are. Now in return, recognize that when the vast majority of us critisize Islamic criminals who are operating under a doctrine of theocratic supremacy, it doesn't mean we think the entire Muslim population are hitting themselves over the head with rocks in one big Ashoura ritual.

[Abcdxxxx]

Finally. This is a start.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/689

[kahljorn]

"We don't fault you for the actions of another, we fault you for your REACTION, and RESPONSE. "

Maybe this should've been:

'We don't fault you for the actions of another, we fault someone else in your religion for reaction, and response.'

because it seems like in that statement you really were holding him at fault by saying, "Your" despite the fact that he had no part in the, "Reactions" and "Response" that you were talking about. How could it be his reaction and response unless he was doing it himself? Racist.

And who's we?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

And who's we?
Him and the ones whose excuse for living is justified. You know what I mean, those over-educated guys who know exactly what's best for the rest of the world. Don't question him. Follow him confidently. He'll lead you to the gates of paradise, man. Just you wait! Go ABC!

[Abcdxxxx]

Scru expressed his reaction, and his lack of desire to respond or be held accountable. It's not racist to acknowledge that. What IS racist are generalized boycotts, attacking a government who didn't sponsor the cartoons, and it's citizens all for the act of one person. Again, hypocrisy.

[kahljorn]

How does that fault lie in him or anybody not directly associated with the people who actually did the rioting? I'm sure there's somebody out there in the world who is of the same ethnicity/religion as you screwing someone over, acting the hypocrite and being a general jackass. Does that make you or everyone else in your family/religion a jackass/hypocrite/bad-man?

Why should HE be held reliable if HE didn't do anything? What the fuck is he going to do, send them all an angry e-mail expressing his opinion through the friendssharehugkissmuslimnetwork? Then will they apologize and castrate themselves? What is your point here?

The actions I speak of above are known as PREJUDICE and furthermore DISCRIMINATION. You are being a RACIST, a BIGOT. Your type of mentality leads to the type of mentality you are preaching against. How's that for hypocricy?

[Abcdxxxx]

Yeah, my right to freedom of speech is on par with the violence i'm critisizing. Wow, you kids are bright. You act like moderate Muslims are staying objective, and avoiding discourse on the topic completely. Instead they're saying I can explain the anger, and agree with it on some level, I just don't agree with the means. A true moderate will defend the seperation of Mosque and State.

Look, the biggest critics of Israel are Jews. When Hasidics Rabbis were giving babies herpes through circumcision rituals, Jews didn't call for tolerance, or use the opportunity to have a discussion about the merits of Judaism...in fact, we didn't rally together over the case, at all. So again, your attempt at moral equivalency is misleading. A true moderate takes offense at the desecrations against all peoples, and faiths...ESPECIALLY THEIR OWN.


This is making the rounds in various forms, around the internet, uncredited:


* Muslim officials block the exit where schoolgirls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.
* A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.
* Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage
* Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.
* Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims ? No Muslim outrage

Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.

I know and understand that these bloodthirsty murderers do not represent the majority of the world's Muslims. When, though, do they become outraged? When do they take to the streets to express their outrage at the radicals who are making their religion the object of worldwide hatred and ridicule?

Islamic writer Salman Rushdie wrote of these silent Muslims in a New York Times article three years ago … "As their ancient, deeply civilized culture of love, art and philosophical reflection is hijacked by paranoiacs, racists, liars, male supremacists, tyrants, fanatics and violence junkies, why are they not screaming?"

[ScruU2wice]

Scru expressed his reaction, and his lack of desire to respond or be held accountable. It's not racist to acknowledge that. What IS racist are generalized boycotts, attacking a government who didn't sponsor the cartoons, and it's citizens all for the act of one person. Again, hypocrisy.

You're mistaking desire for ability. I am not any more powerful than you to change the minds of people who think a cartoon is a valid enough crticism of their religion to destroy things. and think that burning everything danish is evil because one dumbshit thought he was a fucking satirical genius.

But you're right I don't think I should be held accountable. Do you think I should be?

[ScruU2wice]

Yeah, my right to freedom of speech is on par with the violence i'm critisizing. Wow, you kids are bright. You act like moderate Muslims are staying objective, and avoiding discourse on the topic completely. Instead they're saying I can explain the anger, and agree with it on some level, I just don't agree with the means. A true moderate will defend the seperation of Mosque and State.

Ok it's a good think you know what a true moderat muslim should and shouldn't be.

I can't even understand what you want me to say. Rioting is wrong. check. You should denounce fanatic muslims. check. It says that Israel belongs to the jews in the Koran. I didn't even argue wit you on that eventhough you didn't back it up with anything, just to save face.

What am I suppose to say now? That muslims shouldn't find the comic offensive, because by giving any explanation to what is happening is giving justification? I should be going out of my way to seperate mosque and state in unstable middle eastern countrie? If I scream really reallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreally loudly I can get muslim people thousands of miles away to put down their torches and have a dinner party with israel? Islam is flawed because a bunch of it's followers are insane and that there is no degree of seperation from the teachings of islam and those who are teaching it?

Is the problems of the middle east the fault of every muslim in the world?

[Abcdxxxx]

I lost you Scru, I have no idea what your point is. You don't want to be held accountable, but you want to defend the Islamic religion. That means you identify with the religion, but not the modern crimes associated with it. The problem with that, is you aren't willing to allow your religion to be held accountable either. Fine, so then who is accountable, and how do we speak out against them without offending you, since you think it's beyond your own means?

Here's the problem........
Islamists are holding the entire Western World responsible for one man's cartoons.
Islamicists routinely attack civilian targets in retribution for State activities.
When anyone attributes these criminal acts to Muslims, when we
know these people label themselves as such....THAT bothers you? What are they? Porcupines? Media creations? Aliens?


Check out the attendance of a Washington DC rally held by Free Muslims Against Terrorism. Not even the supposedly moderate organizations attended.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/FMAT-FreedomPlaza.jpg

Contrast that with supposedly "moderate" Jordan, in support of Islamic supremacy, and Facism:

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/jordanian_muslims_protest_cartoons.jpg

and Bangeledesh:
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/bangledesh_cartoon_protesters.jpg

and India:
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/indian_muslims.jpg

[glowbelly]

:lol

i'm thinking that might have to do with the fact that there are just a few more muslims in those countries than there are here, but i dunno. i could be wrong.

[MLE]

all i see here for the past majority of posts is people saying that Scru needs to act a certain way since he's muslim. Did you expect him to come on here after muslims were outraged and say "Now wait a minute here! Muslims shouldn't be complaining about any of this! I know cause i am one!"
he, like most of the muslim people i know, respects their religion and 99.9% of the people involved in their religion. He wasn't involved. He didn't feel he had anything to say on the subject at first other than "why don't you step back and look more objectively", and you assume he's rooting for the terrrorists? i'd say that's a little more than bigoted.


y'know, if this was about christians, i don't think we'd be having the same discussion with one of our local christians at the stake.

[ScruU2wice]

I lost you Scru, I have no idea what your point is. You don't want to be held accountable, but you want to defend the Islamic religion. That means you identify with the religion, but not the modern crimes associated with it. The problem with that, is you aren't willing to allow your religion to be held accountable either. Fine, so then who is accountable, and how do we speak out against them without offending you, since you think it's beyond your own means?

My problem is that you say Religion should be held accountable you're implying that the teaching and text are the result of fundamentalism. And I don't believe that. I am saying that the problem is solely the people who are brainwashing a generation into believe a secular government is against Islam, and that the two can't coincide. My problem is with the people not the religion.

I think the fact that muslims are making these overarching claims shows that it's a problem with the people. It's wrong and senseless and there is nothing to justify it. Someone offended their religion and rather than defend themselves and point out how fulla shit this guy is, they decide throwing bricks makes alot more sense. They call themselve muslims because that's the identity they are trying to fight for.

I am offended more by the people rioting than th cartoons, If I haven't admitted that here I will. But I can't see a solution to how you can stop, I don't even know where to start. Mainly because Moderate muslims in the west are no better to these people than anyone else.

[Chojin]

The majority of US Christians voted Bush. Does that mean that Christianity is inherently stupid?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

:lol

i'm thinking that might have to do with the fact that there are just a few more muslims in those countries than there are here, but i dunno. i could be wrong.

Yeah, apparently there are only 15 muslims in America. :rolleyes

[Abcdxxxx]

I'm sorry...but this is one situation where saying "look at this
objectively" really doesn't express condemnation or disapproval.

So again, I'll ask you.... what should we call these people if not Muslims ? What would you like me to call the Imams, clerics, religious scholars, and organizations like The Councile on American-Islamic Relations ?

(by the way, it's Sura 5:21, and Sura 17:104 which discuss the Jewish disapora right to land, in case you were curious)

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I'm sorry...but this is one situation where saying "look at this
objectively" really doesn't express condemnation or disapproval.

So again, I'll ask you.... what should we call these people if not Muslims ?
You call them terrorists without associating them with religion, because if you know anything about religion you'd know that it doesn't promote or justify or even directly cause such actions. If by your definition this is Islamic terrorism, then, by your defitinion, Christian and Jewish terrorism exists too and is just as bad.

Why is it always Islam when it comes to Middle Eastern issues and it's just political instability when it comes to other countries? We hardly go by the Sharia law. You can accuse pseudo-Islam if you consider what's going on in Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Iran, but not when it comes to the rest of its neighbouring countries. It's hardly ever Islam. It's politics, and most of the time reporters abroad seem to name-drop Islam in thre like it has anything to do with the issue. It doesn't. Stop making excuses for things merely because it simplifies the conflict in your head. It's never that simple.

(by the way, it's Sura 5:21, and Sura 17:104 which discuss the Jewish disapora right to land, in case you were curious)
Another by the way, here's Allah saying that He acceps Jews and Christians, and therefore we should tolerate them (I mean, if He does, who the hell are we to dismiss them as sinners?)

Suarah 2:62 says:

"Verily they that believe and those of Jewry and the Christians and those Sabaeans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and do what is right, their rewards await them with their Lord, and fear shall not come upon them, neither shall they be grieved."

Further proof of the fact that you are very wrong in your assumption that Islam preaches contempt for non-Muslims. Freedom of religion is emphasized throughout the Koran. You have absolutely NO argument if you claim to know the Koran yet insist that terrorists go by it. They break too many rules that they may as well just consider themselves 'kafirs.'

And Surah 5:21 says this:

"Bear in mind the words of Moses to his people. He said: 'Remember, my people, the favours which Allah has bestowed upon you. He has raised up prophets among you, made you kings, and given you that which He has given to no other nation. Enter, my people, the holy land which Allah has assigned for you."

[Abcdxxxx]

Good, then the majority of the Middle Eastern Muslim world are living in sin, free of Jews or Christians amongst their communities. Like I said, not even moderate Muslims evoke those verses when dealing with the topic of Israel, or Bethlehem, which is now a Muslim city, or hell.....anywhere in the region.

Al Qaeda put an article on their website saying "yeah okay, so the Koran says Israel should belong to the Jews, but they don't deserve it, so there". Why should outsiders care more for what the Koran says then how the Koran is being practiced? I mean, it's your problem if the Koran is being defaced, it's only my problem if I'm the target of genocide, because of it.

Fuzzbot, you are a fundamentalist with some progressive views. Why should I dissassociate the clerics, Muslim outreach organizations, and religious scholars from their religion ? They would tell me you're the one practicing it wrong. Hell, I agree with you, simply because I like your interpretation better, but why should I dissassociate Muslim terrorism from the religion when they are the ones who make up the majority of Islamic leadership itself?

And yes, I would say Christian, and Jewish terrorism is just as bad... If it even existed on the level of Islamicist terror. I'm not defending Kahanist or Hilltop Youth, am I? They're both religious groups, just as Hamas is a religious group, once led by an Islamic cleric.

So again, when a Islamic suicide bomber reads from the Koran, and says all the reasons he feels justified in killing Jews, you're asking me to pretend he's not a Muslim ? Is there a special name I should be calling him? Because I'm sorry, he's not just a terrorist on par with the Weather Underground. Your argument is about as idiotic as asking us to seperate the White Militia aspect from Timothy Mcveighs case, or say, talk about the IRA and pretend there wasn't a religious component. Dream on.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Good, then the majority of the Middle Eastern Muslim world are living in sin, free of Jews or Christians amongst their communities.
This doesn't make any sense, what are you implying?
I mean, it's your problem if the Koran is being defaced, it's only my problem if I'm the target of genocide, because of it.

God, stop pouting you rediculous shit. Stop playing the victim.
Fuzzbot, you are a fundamentalist with some progressive views.
I think you're just painfully stupid and you totally don't get any of my points.
Why should I dissassociate the clerics, Muslim outreach organizations, and religious scholars from their religion ?
Because you are only allowing yourself to be exposed to a select few, mainly to pat yourself on the back and say, "Yes, I knew it!" you are looking at Islam through an extremely narrow lense thinking it will solve the world's problems if we just eliminate the whole damned thing, right? This is because you are stupid and cannot think outside of the room you've locked yourself in.
So again, when a Islamic suicide bomber reads from the Koran, and says all the reasons he feels justified in killing Jews, you're asking me to pretend he's not a Muslim ?
Is that the only thing you use to identify a Muslim?! These people have been brainwashed into interpreting the Koran differently. Everyone, including Muslims, are critisizing Hamas for encouraging this. Palestinian mothers have spoken out against this when they've lost their children due to this idiocy, they say "This is not my Palestine, this is not my Islam." What do you say to that?
Your argument is about as idiotic as asking us to seperate the White Militia aspect from Timothy Mcveighs case, or say, talk about the IRA and pretend there wasn't a religious component. Dream on.
Your problem is that you seem to intentionally misunderstand where people are coming from to make yourself look like you have a point, when you really don't, most of what you've said here is sheer bullshit and you probably know it too, you just don't have the guts to come out and say it. Go on, play the victim. Sure, you're all the way in America and the 5 Muslims who are yelling "Death to non-Muslims!" make you feel as if you're in danger. You call yourself an Arab-Jew yet you didn't even know the history of Judaism in the Middle East or the origins of Islam, and don't whine to me about 'but I've talked about it on here before!' because ANYONE who knows the origins of Islam will know EXACTLY where these problems are coming from, and WHY they shouldn't be associated with Islam because it's what Islam EVOLVED itlsef into through the PEOPLE, and that is confirming what Scru has been saying all along. The problem is with the people, and not Islam. Therefore, you are stupid, because you claimed that you knew what you were talking about throughout this whole fucking thread and now at least we know that you know fuck-all and refuse to learn, because in your simple mind you dismiss everything that you don't agree with as "bullshit" as opposed to "another point of view from someone who's actually part of the religion."

Fuck off.

And while doing that, remember, it's February and the terror alert is YELLOW for 'MUSLIMS ARE OUT TO GET YOU!'

Target of genocide. HAH. The most rediculous thing I've heard all fucking year.

[ScruU2wice]

I thought the word "Jewry" was hilarious :(

[Abcdxxxx]

"You're stupid, you don't know anything" isn't a rebutal or direct response to anything I've said.

Point blank, I don't think someone who talks about Jews in Jordan, or claims that the civil war in Lebanon didn't have a religious component should be pulling cards. You also claimed there is no anti-semitism in the Arab media. It goes on and on....so frankly, I don't think you're well informed or educated on the topic at all.... but I attempt to break it down for you beyond just saying "fuck you" or "you're stupid".

So feel free to respond to what I'm saying, point-counterpoint.

Everyone, including Muslims, are critisizing Hamas for encouraging this.

Yet Hamas got elected. A mother who raised her children to be suicide bombers is a hero, and got elected. There are University classes in the US on "the poetry of suicide bombing". CAIR, the largest American organization for Muslims supports the methods of Islamic militants. Even you argue for sympathy towards the suicide bombers. So I think your claim is dubious at best. Western news outlets stopped even reffering to these people as terrorists for a period of time.

Target of genocide. HAH. The most rediculous thing I've heard all fucking year.

Of course you think it's funny. Where I know Scru is an honest to goodness moderate, I think you're just a contradictory fraud. Of course you think it's pouting. Do you even realize that you are your own satire of yourself?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Dear Diary,

How's it going? It's me. What? You've forgotten me? Let me remind you: I'm the one who thinks that anyone who doesn't agree with me is a pointless brat who is a victim of propoganda and the one who hates it when people call me stupid because they can't handle how clueless I am about a topic I so love to talk about without researching it further. I hate people like that. I mean it's okay if I call them stupid, but they better back off because I know too much (mom said so!). He is a fraud, I think! Or, I know! I know he is! 'Cuz he called me out for being what I am!

I just LOATHE people pointing out the fact that I'm stupid, I really do. I mean, why do they stab me with this frequently and painfully? My guess is that Islam is spread through the sword. Yup. That means Muslims like to walk around stabbing people multiple times.

I believe I was the first one to not dismantle his points constructively but rather just quote it all and say, "hey, you know what? I think you're wrong and stupid," and the worst part is that I didn't even tell him why. I just told him that he knows nothing. And then when he does it to me, I don't know, I guess I felt how bad it feels for people to just call you stupid. Wow, I mean.

I hide under my bed sheets everyday knowing that the Muslims are just out to get me, you know? Everyday it's the same damned thing. I'm the target of genocide, diary. I'm the target of horror and terror, and I don't know what to do. I cry myself to sleep, hold on to my opinions because I know they'll get me places, and I guess if I lie to people saying I know absolutely everything about the Middle East they might take me seriously. But I better not talk! Because as soon as I talk any Middle Easterner would be able to see right through me, and I can look at him and say "you're biased!" to make myself look good in front of others, but seriously, I'd just be looking bad in front of my own self because I know I'm wrong. But I'll fuck myself multiple times with a tweezer before ever admitting it.

Well, I better go be all depressed and shit now, and talk to people about me feeling really passionate about this because I'm the victim of war here, a mass genocide, it's really sad. I hate myself. Hell can't possibly be any harder than this so I wish God would just kill me and send me to hell. It can't possibly be worse. This place is horrific, thanks to Muslims. HORRIFIC. Hideous. I can't take this shit anymore.

Yours,
ABC
Target of Genocide, Division A

[Abcdxxxx]

Can I at least blame your lame ass jokes on Islam? How else is it you share the same sense of humor as those Danish Imams?

Rather then repeat myself, I'll just quote myself. Ask someone for help if you're confused.


Good, then the majority of the Middle Eastern Muslim world are living in sin, free of Jews or Christians amongst their communities. Like I said, not even moderate Muslims evoke those verses when dealing with the topic of Israel, or Bethlehem, which is now a Muslim city, or hell.....anywhere in the region.

Al Qaeda put an article on their website saying "yeah okay, so the Koran says Israel should belong to the Jews, but they don't deserve it, so there". Why should outsiders care more for what the Koran says then how the Koran is being practiced? I mean, it's your problem if the Koran is being defaced, it's only my problem if I'm the target of genocide, because of it.

Fuzzbot, you are a fundamentalist with some progressive views. Why should I dissassociate the clerics, Muslim outreach organizations, and religious scholars from their religion ? They would tell me you're the one practicing it wrong. Hell, I agree with you, simply because I like your interpretation better, but why should I dissassociate Muslim terrorism from the religion when they are the ones who make up the majority of Islamic leadership itself?

And yes, I would say Christian, and Jewish terrorism is just as bad... If it even existed on the level of Islamicist terror. I'm not defending Kahanist or Hilltop Youth, am I? They're both religious groups, just as Hamas is a religious group, once led by an Islamic cleric.

So again, when a Islamic suicide bomber reads from the Koran, and says all the reasons he feels justified in killing Jews, you're asking me to pretend he's not a Muslim ? Is there a special name I should be calling him? Because I'm sorry, he's not just a terrorist on par with the Weather Underground. Your argument is about as idiotic as asking us to seperate the White Militia aspect from Timothy Mcveighs case, or say, talk about the IRA and pretend there wasn't a religious component. Dream on.

They break too many rules that they may as well just consider themselves 'kafirs.'

They would say you're playing pocket Muhadith, and unfortunately, you have made your own interpretation politically irrelevant, due in part because you wish to distance yourself from the mess, which is a form of denial, not a solution.

What your thesis comes down to is a desperate desire for you to believe that there are no Muslim criminals, and this whole thing exists in the sensationalized head of bigots. You apparently don't even believe in the concept of an "Islamic Terorist". You're so out of touch it's hardly relevant what you think. You refuse to clean up the problem, or take responsibility, let alone even admit that there is an association between Islamic supremacists and ISLAM. The dominant religion in the Middle East IS Islam, so it's logical that the attrocious human rights conditions tolerated in the region are automatically associated with the Muslim religion. I know you'd like to believe these crimes aren't religiously motivated, but the unfortunate truth is they are, in large part, and the stories they use for inspiration are often about Mohammed himself. A great deal of people believe Religions are to blame for most of the wars and violence in the world, and there's a reason why, you dolt.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Dear Diary,

Same ol, same ol! I like to quote myself a lot because I love having exactly the same discussion with someone I've just had about a week ago. I don't know, maybe it's because I'm bored, perhaps I should find a new hobby? Oh, diary, I just do not know! I'd say a joke but I have a lame sense of humour, even worse than those of the Danes! Or the Dutch? No, I think the Dutch could be quite funny. I just hope they don't joke a lot about the Jews because, seeing as we're pretty much targets of genocide, that would not be very tasteful.

I like blaming religion but when it comes to my own there's absolutely no reason why I should do it I mean, Islam is one thing, Judaism is another, they are not related no matter what that "dolt" says about the origins of Islam and what Allah has to say about Judaism as a practiced religion, but that's just me! And I'm just stupid! But shhhh, don't tell anybody this! I'm trying to convince them of something else (that I'm smart, which I am, according to mom!)

Yours, quite possibly forever,
ABC
Target of Genocide, Division A

[Abcdxxxx]

See, even your jokes bomb. Comedic jihad?
Get some new material.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Dear Diary,

Today I made a hilarious reference on I-Mockery.com I mean .net. It was pretty funny, this Muslim dude was trying to be obnoxious by posting my diary entries, pasting them from my actual web journal (I've yet to figure out who he got the link from >: ! I will kick their fucking ass as if I'm Israel because they rule) and I said, "hey dude, what's wrong with you, is this a comedic jihad?" and I must've busted both of my nuts just laughing at that shit. It's hysterical comedy gold, I can't believe how funny I am sometimes. My aunt Trudy said that if I wasn't so damned smart I'd make a really good stand-up comedian, but then I decided to discuss the politics of a region I know nada about. Slightly different. I'm unintentionally funny most of the time. I think it's because I depend on Wikipedia too much. Either that, or I'm just fucking funny, hence the "comedic jihad" line (copyright!)

Today I was informed that at least 10 Danes converted to Islam since this incident. I don't know what to think! They're probably doing it because they're scared! That's more Muslims for me to critisize! But, at least I get to slap them all under the same catagory, the more Muslims, the less I think! Because the more I blame the world's problems on Islam. Easy as.

Yours,
ABC
Target of war and genocide (stop chuckling, I'm serious!), Divison A

[Ant10708]

yawn

[Dole]

The majority of US Christians voted Bush. Does that mean that Christianity is inherently stupid?

Incidental, but yes.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

yawn
Hey look, it's Vinth's back-up opinion that no one values!

[davinxtk]

Actually fuzzbot I pretty much second Ant's assessment of the situation.
Personally I think Abcdxxxx has revealed himself of late as a crazy jew and for the most part I agree with you, but neither of you seems apt to shut up anytime soon and someone had to say it.

[Abcdxxxx]

Well that's pretty affirming that I can be a "crazy Jew". I guess Davin agrees with me that we can attribute insane behavior to Religion....even the Muslim one. Thanks Davin!

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Actually fuzzbot I pretty much second Ant's assessment of the situation.
Personally I think Abcdxxxx has revealed himself of late as a crazy jew and for the most part I agree with you, but neither of you seems apt to shut up anytime soon and someone had to say it.
Um, if I was trying to portray ABC as actually being 'funny' or mildly interesting and creative then that would be missing the whole point. He's boring, and so are his diary entries, you yawning should pretty much sum up how you feel about him so I guess I did a good job representing him.

[Abcdxxxx]

Thousands flock to see 'divine' calf
From correspondents in Cairo
February 14, 2006
THOUSANDS of people flocked to southern Egypt today to seek blessing from a calf they believe was born as God's reply to the publication in Europe of cartoons depicting the prophet, police said.

Some 20,000 thousand people had gathered in front of Mohammed Abu Dif's house in the village of Tunis to see the holy mammal, whose skin folds when he was born reportedly formed the words "There is no God but Allah", a police official said on condition of anonymity.http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18142356%5E1702,00.html

[davinxtk]

Well that's pretty affirming that I can be a "crazy Jew". I guess Davin agrees with me that we can attribute insane behavior to Religion....even the Muslim one. Thanks Davin!

No, you can attribute insane behavior to insane people. Jews on the whole aren't crazy. There are many different sects of Jewish culture, as well. There are hasidic jews, orthodox jews, reform jews, jews for jesus, etc. Spread out among these many sects are crazy jews. Now, when I say crazy jews, I don't mean a jew who happens to be crazy. I refer specifically to a certain type of person. This type of person believes that every attack against every member of their race/religion/creed/whateverhaveyou may as well be an attack against them personally. This goes for crazy jews, crazy ******s, crazy indians (who most probably would prefer the term crazy native americans) or whatever crazy culture you belong to. No personal offense intended, Abcdxxxx, but the beliefs you've expressed regarding jews, their treatment, your opinions on this, and reactions to it have proven to me that you are a crazy jew.

I'm sure you don't really give a shit, but I felt compelled to explain myself.

[Abcdxxxx]

You might think you're above persecution because you seperate yourself from "those Jews", but history has taught us differently. Perhaps genocide talk is something you read in text books, but a lot of us have experienced it first hand, or heard first hand accounts from our parents. Why shouldn't I take my families experiences personally? There's a reason why Jewish phillanthropy leads the way in all areas of human rights causes. I don't consider those Jews to be the Crazy Jews. What do you say to Scru, and Fuzzbot , who do the exact same thing, because they feel as though I'm personally attacking them, and every Muslim when I say critical things meant to be directed at "crazies" and criminals?

And now, for extra credit, can you tell me which exact Islamic sects we can pinpoint as crazy ?

[davinxtk]

I don't think I've ever met someone who uses the word genocide as often as you do, sir, but when I do I'll be sure to call them crazy too.
I also don't really regard myself as being above persecution, I simply don't find persecution to be an apt basis for any type of action, except of course immediate self-preservation.
This goes way deeper than your family members' experiences, though. I don't hold it against you that you argue on behalf of jews when comments are made about them, just like I don't hold like actions against Scu and Fuzzbot regarding muslims. What I do feel is unnecessary is your incessant need to draw on hundreds of years of history to make your point.
Yes, jews have been discriminated against in the past.
Should that be a basis for or influence on any type of action? No. Humans should be treated as humans. Many jews were put through the wringer, and many more died. Does that make the future generations any more special? Only to those who survived the moment. Asking anyone else to level with this mentally or emotionally is patently absurd. Empathy is overrated as a means.

To bring up an old topic (which I made an incredibly long post in and then lost it immediately before submitting), the carving of Israel should have had no basis in who was there HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO. Mandate Palestine should have been left just the way it was, in once piece, and everyone there should have been told to put up or shut up. Instead of Israel uprooting native Palestinians and shipping them westward (or wherever the fuck they shipped them) the country should have remained ONCE PIECE. You seem to think that just because at one point things were owned by jews, they should ever be that way. That's like if a Native American group were to demand the legal rights to all of Cape Cod because their ancestors were the first to groom this land. You and I would scoff at them, call them crazy fucking indians, and tell them to go screw. If, however, they were jews trying to claim ancestral land, I'd see you supporting them fully.

There's a sense of unity among jews that is largely their undoing in the public eye. It's even part of your religious texts to treat jews in more trustworthy and honest manners than gentiles. This isn't to say that the Torah advocates the wholesale raping and pillaging of non-Israelite peoples and property, but then again who was the one who said that Geggy's anti-zionism was akin to blood libels? It's comments like that that make you a crazy jew.

Now, on to the extra credit. This is the easy part.

You want crazy Islamic sects? I've got a sweet list for you:

Aden-Abyan Islamic Army
Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya
Hamas
Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade
Ansar al-Islam
Al-Qaeda
Asbat Al-Ansar
Jama'at al-Tawhid wa'al-Jihad
Egyptian Islamic Jihad
Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM)
Islamic Front for the Liberation of Bahrain
Jaish-e-Mohammed
Jaish Ansar al-Sunna
Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF)
Lashkar-e-Jhangvi
Lashkar-e-Toiba
Maktab al-Khadamat
Muslim Brotherhood
Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan
Takfir wal-Hijra
Kurdish-Hizbullah
Hofstad Network

Robbed in part from Wikipedia, this is a list of the ones you've likely heard of before. You want some great public agencies to attack as being the most towel-laiden of the towelheads?

Al-Barakaat (Al-Qaida front)
Al-Wafa Humanitarian Organization (Al-Qaida front)
Benevolence International Foundation (Al-Qaida front)
Global Relief Foundation (Al-Qaida front)
Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development (Hamas)
Konsojaya Trading Company (Jemaah Islamiyah front)


Boom.


This is the internet, buddy, do a little research and you can unearth the craziest of the crazies in no time. :dunce :moon :pirate :shocked :goth :rave :worship :explode :chatter

[Abcdxxxx]

Holy shit, Davin. Great with the non-sequitors. You're all over the place, sounding like a lunatic in your own right.

1) You listed Islamic Terror organizations, not SECTS.

2) Your "put up or shut" up concept was basically what happened. Nobody was uprooted. They just "put up". Many Arabs did return. Mandate Palestine, as you refer to it, was never a country. It was an occupied territory. One in which both Jews and Arabs resided. Is this where I have to ask if you believe in the right to self determination?

3) When I speak of genocide, I'm not talking about hundreds of years ago, I'm talking post-Holocaust pogroms. I realize you think I'm talking like Reparations talk, but these are recent events, and THIS generation. Israel is full of refuseniks, and exiles who are still being targeted for their Jewishness. Ever heard of those Hamas guys?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Washington post: (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/17/AR2006021702499_pf.html)

Why I Published Those Cartoons

By Flemming Rose
Sunday, February 19, 2006; B01


Childish. Irresponsible. Hate speech. A provocation just for the sake of provocation. A PR stunt. Critics of 12 cartoons of the prophet Muhammad I decided to publish in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten have not minced their words. They say that freedom of expression does not imply an endorsement of insulting people's religious feelings, and besides, they add, the media censor themselves every day. So, please do not teach us a lesson about limitless freedom of speech.

I agree that the freedom to publish things doesn't mean you publish everything. Jyllands-Posten would not publish pornographic images or graphic details of dead bodies; swear words rarely make it into our pages. So we are not fundamentalists in our support for freedom of expression.

But the cartoon story is different.

Those examples have to do with exercising restraint because of ethical standards and taste; call it editing. By contrast, I commissioned the cartoons in response to several incidents of self-censorship in Europe caused by widening fears and feelings of intimidation in dealing with issues related to Islam. And I still believe that this is a topic that we Europeans must confront, challenging moderate Muslims to speak out. The idea wasn't to provoke gratuitously -- and we certainly didn't intend to trigger violent demonstrations throughout the Muslim world. Our goal was simply to push back self-imposed limits on expression that seemed to be closing in tighter.

At the end of September, a Danish standup comedian said in an interview with Jyllands-Posten that he had no problem urinating on the Bible in front of a camera, but he dared not do the same thing with the Koran.

This was the culmination of a series of disturbing instances of self-censorship. Last September, a Danish children's writer had trouble finding an illustrator for a book about the life of Muhammad. Three people turned down the job for fear of consequences. The person who finally accepted insisted on anonymity, which in my book is a form of self-censorship. European translators of a critical book about Islam also did not want their names to appear on the book cover beside the name of the author, a Somalia-born Dutch politician who has herself been in hiding.

Around the same time, the Tate gallery in London withdrew an installation by the avant-garde artist John Latham depicting the Koran, Bible and Talmud torn to pieces. The museum explained that it did not want to stir things up after the London bombings. (A few months earlier, to avoid offending Muslims, a museum in Goteborg, Sweden, had removed a painting with a sexual motif and a quotation from the Koran.)

Finally, at the end of September, Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen met with a group of imams, one of whom called on the prime minister to interfere with the press in order to get more positive coverage of Islam.

So, over two weeks we witnessed a half-dozen cases of self-censorship, pitting freedom of speech against the fear of confronting issues about Islam. This was a legitimate news story to cover, and Jyllands-Posten decided to do it by adopting the well-known journalistic principle: Show, don't tell. I wrote to members of the association of Danish cartoonists asking them "to draw Muhammad as you see him." We certainly did not ask them to make fun of the prophet. Twelve out of 25 active members responded.

We have a tradition of satire when dealing with the royal family and other public figures, and that was reflected in the cartoons. The cartoonists treated Islam the same way they treat Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism and other religions. And by treating Muslims in Denmark as equals they made a point: We are integrating you into the Danish tradition of satire because you are part of our society, not strangers. The cartoons are including, rather than excluding, Muslims.

The cartoons do not in any way demonize or stereotype Muslims. In fact, they differ from one another both in the way they depict the prophet and in whom they target. One cartoon makes fun of Jyllands-Posten, portraying its cultural editors as a bunch of reactionary provocateurs. Another suggests that the children's writer who could not find an illustrator for his book went public just to get cheap publicity. A third puts the head of the anti-immigration Danish People's Party in a lineup, as if she is a suspected criminal.

One cartoon -- depicting the prophet with a bomb in his turban -- has drawn the harshest criticism. Angry voices claim the cartoon is saying that the prophet is a terrorist or that every Muslim is a terrorist. I read it differently: Some individuals have taken the religion of Islam hostage by committing terrorist acts in the name of the prophet. They are the ones who have given the religion a bad name. The cartoon also plays into the fairy tale about Aladdin and the orange that fell into his turban and made his fortune. This suggests that the bomb comes from the outside world and is not an inherent characteristic of the prophet.

On occasion, Jyllands-Posten has refused to print satirical cartoons of Jesus, but not because it applies a double standard. In fact, the same cartoonist who drew the image of Muhammed with a bomb in his turban drew a cartoon with Jesus on the cross having dollar notes in his eyes and another with the star of David attached to a bomb fuse. There were, however, no embassy burnings or death threats when we published those.

Has Jyllands-Posten insulted and disrespected Islam? It certainly didn't intend to. But what does respect mean? When I visit a mosque, I show my respect by taking off my shoes. I follow the customs, just as I do in a church, synagogue or other holy place. But if a believer demands that I, as a nonbeliever, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect, but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy.

This is exactly why Karl Popper, in his seminal work "The Open Society and Its Enemies," insisted that one should not be tolerant with the intolerant. Nowhere do so many religions coexist peacefully as in a democracy where freedom of expression is a fundamental right. In Saudi Arabia, you can get arrested for wearing a cross or having a Bible in your suitcase, while Muslims in secular Denmark can have their own mosques, cemeteries, schools, TV and radio stations.

I acknowledge that some people have been offended by the publication of the cartoons, and Jyllands-Posten has apologized for that. But we cannot apologize for our right to publish material, even offensive material. You cannot edit a newspaper if you are paralyzed by worries about every possible insult.

I am offended by things in the paper every day: transcripts of speeches by Osama bin Laden, photos from Abu Ghraib, people insisting that Israel should be erased from the face of the Earth, people saying the Holocaust never happened. But that does not mean that I would refrain from printing them as long as they fell within the limits of the law and of the newspaper's ethical code. That other editors would make different choices is the essence of pluralism.

As a former correspondent in the Soviet Union, I am sensitive about calls for censorship on the grounds of insult. This is a popular trick of totalitarian movements: Label any critique or call for debate as an insult and punish the offenders. That is what happened to human rights activists and writers such as Andrei Sakharov, Vladimir Bukovsky, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Natan Sharansky, Boris Pasternak. The regime accused them of anti-Soviet propaganda, just as some Muslims are labeling 12 cartoons in a Danish newspaper anti-Islamic.

The lesson from the Cold War is: If you give in to totalitarian impulses once, new demands follow. The West prevailed in the Cold War because we stood by our fundamental values and did not appease totalitarian tyrants.

Since the Sept. 30 publication of the cartoons, we have had a constructive debate in Denmark and Europe about freedom of expression, freedom of religion and respect for immigrants and people's beliefs. Never before have so many Danish Muslims participated in a public dialogue -- in town hall meetings, letters to editors, opinion columns and debates on radio and TV. We have had no anti-Muslim riots, no Muslims fleeing the country and no Muslims committing violence. The radical imams who misinformed their counterparts in the Middle East about the situation for Muslims in Denmark have been marginalized. They no longer speak for the Muslim community in Denmark because moderate Muslims have had the courage to speak out against them.

In January, Jyllands-Posten ran three full pages of interviews and photos of moderate Muslims saying no to being represented by the imams. They insist that their faith is compatible with a modern secular democracy. A network of moderate Muslims committed to the constitution has been established, and the anti-immigration People's Party called on its members to differentiate between radical and moderate Muslims, i.e. between Muslims propagating sharia law and Muslims accepting the rule of secular law. The Muslim face of Denmark has changed, and it is becoming clear that this is not a debate between "them" and "us," but between those committed to democracy in Denmark and those who are not.

This is the sort of debate that Jyllands-Posten had hoped to generate when it chose to test the limits of self-censorship by calling on cartoonists to challenge a Muslim taboo. Did we achieve our purpose? Yes and no. Some of the spirited defenses of our freedom of expression have been inspiring. But tragic demonstrations throughout the Middle East and Asia were not what we anticipated, much less desired. Moreover, the newspaper has received 104 registered threats, 10 people have been arrested, cartoonists have been forced into hiding because of threats against their lives and Jyllands-Posten's headquarters have been evacuated several times due to bomb threats. This is hardly a climate for easing self-censorship.

Still, I think the cartoons now have a place in two separate narratives, one in Europe and one in the Middle East. In the words of the Somali-born Dutch politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the integration of Muslims into European societies has been sped up by 300 years due to the cartoons; perhaps we do not need to fight the battle for the Enlightenment all over again in Europe. The narrative in the Middle East is more complex, but that has very little to do with the cartoons.

flemming.rose@jp.dk

Flemming Rose is the culture editor of the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten.

[Pharaoh]

I don't really see how the integration of Muslims into European societies has been sped up by 300 years due to the cartoons. I'd say it's shown that they'll never integrate, and that it's going to have to be us infidels doing the integrating by submitting to Islam.

[ScruU2wice]

I think the litmus test of that article's validity would be finding a Danish Standup comedian..

[ScruU2wice]

Those examples have to do with exercising restraint because of ethical standards and taste; call it editing. By contrast, I commissioned the cartoons in response to several incidents of self-censorship in Europe caused by widening fears and feelings of intimidation in dealing with issues related to Islam. And I still believe that this is a topic that we Europeans must confront, challenging moderate Muslims to speak out. The idea wasn't to provoke gratuitously -- and we certainly didn't intend to trigger violent demonstrations throughout the Muslim world. Our goal was simply to push back self-imposed limits on expression that seemed to be closing in tighter.

You know what would really comment on self imposed censorship and intimidation by radical musilms? actually commenting on self imposed censorship and intimidation by radical musilms. But instead the newspaper chooses to be disrespectful and directly insult the religion of islam instead of muslims. i think it's bullshit that they insult Islam and then say "hey guys seriously it was symbolism. We were trying to show how people shouldn't be intimdated by disrespecting islam, not that we wanted to disrespect islam, we just wanted to make a point, but we didn't want to be obvious so we didn't actually make the point, but we didn't mean to disrepect anyone"

[Abcdxxxx]

See, one would think killing 40 people in the name of the supposed "desecration of Muhhamed's image" would be far more insulting to Islam then any cartoons.

[ScruU2wice]

We've gone over how it is very insulting to Islam, and if you post an article saying that it isn't I'll quote it and type up a schpeel about it too. As I have been over and over and over and over again..

Seeing as how the article was justifying the cartoons publishing in the first place I don't think I deviated too far from the point.

[ScruU2wice]

double post

[sadie]

i don't see why it would matter if this newspaper insulted the religion or some of the people who follow the religion. why does it bother you? do you feel all insults of your religion should be suppressed? or just within the confines of a newspaper?

[ScruU2wice]

Because I think that the stuff in the article is BS.

I don't see how the picture of the prophet mohammad with shady eyes and bomb wrapped in his turbin can be seen as anything but making the prophet look like a terrorist. and If not that one then how's about the one with the black bar over his eyes and holding a saber.

I think there are better ways to criticise self censorship then printing those comics. ie making comics about how people are being scared by muslims, instead of picture directly portraying the prophet mohammad

and the only part that does bother me is that it insults religion. I don't know if its unreasonable to be a little bit offended by some one depicting my religion as inherently evil. but if it is I'm sorry.

but most of all I don't think this should have even been this big of a deal. I think there shoulda been like 20 angry letters to the newspaper which they would use them as toilet paper and everyone would call it a day. But muslim people in the middle east are being stupid and for some reason there's a 10 page thread about this on I-mock

[MLE]

I just had to explain to Chojin that I was laughing at this because Scru is being the only level headed person in this thread.

I think that's pretty funny and all. Y'know, cause he's muslim, and shouldn't he be the one reacting and all? Cause he's not.

[Abcdxxxx]

This particular religious taboo seems incredibly inconsequential in relation to everything else going on in the world.

When did screaming about religious blasphemy start being mistaken for "level headed", and why is a religious prophet above political satire anyway?

More importantly...can someone PLEASE tell me why signs like this one, in Palkistan, are in English ?
http://www.n-tv.de/img/634520_src_path.jpg

[Dole]

presumably because its far more likely to be covered by western TV and give them lots more publicity.

[Pharaoh]

I suppose they're trying to offend us back, in the the hope that we'll riot and shoot our children and burn down buildings.

[davinxtk]

I think there are better ways to criticise self censorship then printing those comics. ie making comics about how people are being scared by muslims, instead of picture directly portraying the prophet mohammad

It's a power play, Scru. It gets the attention of every muslim, not just activist muslims and not just radical muslims. The point was to engage specifically more moderate muslims (the ones who, as it's been said in this thread, don't seem to speak out enough). It effectively gave sane and reasonable muslims something to use to seperate themselves from their foaming-at-the-mouth reactionary counterparts in the eyes of the public. It just went too far.



And...But if a believer demands that I, as a nonbeliever, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect, but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. I think this quote weighs heavily on every political activist from every religion.

[ScruU2wice]

This particular religious taboo seems incredibly inconsequential in relation to everything else going on in the world.

When did screaming about religious blasphemy start being mistaken for "level headed", and why is a religious prophet above political satire anyway?

I'm sorry if my loud internet yelling bothered you. I can't really seem to remember what gives you the authority to tell me what aspects of my religion I find consequential and what I don't.

Again, there is no real winning with you. There is nothing that in your eyes, any muslim can ever do to make you feel that Islam and Muslims aren't pur evil.

[Abcdxxxx]

It has nothing to do with me. I'm not the reason why you think a cartoon of your prophet, exalted by your god, can tarnish his image.

I read a blog where a young Muslim went to his Imam and asked him to speak out against these idiots. Maybe if moderate Muslims became as outspoken as the non-Muslims, and stopped taking this as intolerance for your people, things would change. The problem I see, is even Moderates are against the religious reforms that every other major religion has gone through.

[Preechr]

http://i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=21017

I said I believe the cartoons to be effective statements, and I think they are, though scary, awesome... for the same reason Abcdxxxx just said. Maybe he's a racist or whatever, but I agree with his take on the meaning of this art.

That being said, there's no way I've read through this incredibly long thread completely, so I'm saying this based only on the last few posts.

[ScruU2wice]

It has nothing to do with me. I'm not the reason why you think a cartoon of your prophet, exalted by your god, can tarnish his image.

I read a blog where a young Muslim went to his Imam and asked him to speak out against these idiots. Maybe if moderate Muslims became as outspoken as the non-Muslims, and stopped taking this as intolerance for your people, things would change. The problem I see, is even Moderates are against the religious reforms that every other major religion has gone through.

Yeah ok so any criticism of Islam should go by uncommented on..

"Yeah guys the prophet mohammad was a terrorist"

"That's pretty unfounded and I'll go one step further and call you stupid"

"Hey asshole, if you were really secure in your beliefs you wouldn't care what I say, and if you were a truly progressive muslim you wouldn't criticize me, you would go pull on a cape and fly across the world to fix all of the middle east."

"tousche"

See the thing is that I am more offended by the Muslim response to the situation and I have admitted it time and time again. But I don't support the cartoons which you want me to. When you bring up the topic of the cartoons being offensive. THEY ARE. tell me that I'm wrapping myself up in dogma and inconsequential doctrines of Islam, I don't care. I'm not gonna list the different times I spoke up against how many times I told my friends that the whole situation was a disgrace to Muslims around the world, because I don't need to tell you. You already know how I feel, on the subject..

I also said that the situation at hand is not a problem that I believe can be solved by religious reform seeing as how I have stated that this is a problem with people being hyper-sensitive to religious taboos. What religious reforms can I promote: Should we allow depiction of the Prophet Mohammad and Allah? what religious change other than that would make any difference in what these psychos are doing? Will my speaking out change the minds of middle easterners who probably hate me as much as any other person in the west?

[Pub Lover]

Yeah guys, Saad is as corrupt as we are, give the man a break. Sheesh.