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ziggytrix
Mar 14th, 2006, 04:05 PM
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0315/p06s02-wome.html

World > Middle East
from the March 15, 2006 edition

Prison raid fallout spreads

An Israeli siege of a Palestinian jail Tuesday could undermine Abbas.

By Ilene R. Prusher | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

JERICHO, WEST BANK – The Israeli army laid siege to a Palestinian Authority prison here Tuesday, demanding custody of the man Israel holds responsible for the 2001 assassination of its tourism minister. The raid led to a day-long standoff before he and other holdouts surrendered rather than be killed.

The army drove bulldozers in and lobbed tank shells in an attempt to force him and others to turn themselves in, after international observers at the prisons left, citing deteriorating security conditions.

The fallout of the siege spread by the hour, as the diplomatic, military, and political implications of the breakdown in international cooperation became more apparent, raising concerns of further violence in what is already a tinderbox atmosphere.

Making a full-blown incursion into what is supposed to be autonomous Palestinian territory, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) surrounded the prison here just 20 minutes after the 9 a.m. departure of three observers from Britain, which along with the US, had agreed to keep watch over the high- profile prisoners.

They were there to assure Israel that the Palestinian militants responsible for killing Israeli cabinet minister Rehavam Zeevi would not walk free. One prisoner and one guard were killed and several others were wounded in what became a violent standoff between the army and Palestinian guards.

"If they don't get out, we'll take them out," Col. Roni Belkin, second in command of the IDF armored division in charge of the raid, told reporters gathering on a stony hillside in view of the prison, watching smoke from tank fire rise over the normally placid city.

Violence spread

Enraged over the raid, Palestinians in several West Bank cities marched and fired guns into the air, promising to take revenge on British and US nationals. Hamas called on its activists to join in a massive march in Gaza planned for Wednesday.

In the Gaza Strip, militants believed to be connected to the Popular Front for the Liberation for Palestine (PFLP) - the group that took responsibility for Mr. Zeevi's murder - stormed the European Union's compound. They shot into the building and then set fire to the offices of the British Council, which housed a library and educational facilities.

At least seven foreign nationals were kidnapped Tuesday. In Gaza, a Swiss aid worker in the offices of the International Committee of the Red Cross, two French citizens, and a South Korean journalist were all abducted. News wires reported that two Australians seized by gunmen were also let go.

An American schoolteacher was kidnapped around Jenin, in the West Bank, and later released. And gunmen fired on a convoy of foreigners being evacuated from Gaza, but there were no casualties, according to media reports.

The fact that the British guards would be walking off the job soon had been apparent since March 8, when British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw sent a letter to the PA warning of the impending withdrawal. In the letter, Mr. Straw complained that his concerns for the monitors' safety had not been met, and warned that they would leave if their situation didn't change immediately.

Observers say the situation for the Britons had deteriorated since the January election victory of Hamas, the Islamic Resistance Group. Both Britain and the US have said that they will not maintain relations with the PA if it is run by Hamas, which they view as a terrorist group.

But the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas was angry over the withdrawal of the observers and portrayed it as a surprise for which he had had no warning.

"The Authority denounces this aggression and calls on the Israeli government to withdraw immediately from Jericho and to stop all the military acts, and it calls on the American and British observers to return immediately," Mr. Abbas, also known as Abu Mazen, said in a statement.

Most wanted list

Around 9 a.m., Col. Belkin watched the British observers' cars, ones he knows well, leave town. Twenty minutes later, his men - about 100 of them - were inside Jericho, bombarding the outer walls with bulldozers and using megaphones to call on the prisoners inside to come out. They also used tank shells, according to wire reports.

Of approximately 200 inside, some 170 of them came out voluntarily - many of them dressed in their undergarments - in an apparent move to show they were unarmed.

About 30 Palestinians remained inside, including what is believed to be some prison guards. The men inside had firearms, which were permitted under previous Palestinian-Israeli peace accords, but it was unclear whether the Palestinians had fired on the Israeli army waiting outside.

At the end of the day, after a nearly 10-hour-long siege, the man the Israelis wanted most decided to surrender: Ahmed Saadat, the head of the PFLP and a winner, as of January, of a seat on the Palestinian legislative council. He and five other senior militants with high-profile cases have been held in the prison here since 2002.

Mr. Saadat had told Al Jazeera in an interview from his cellphone inside the prison that he would never turn himself in to the Israelis. A reporter who reached one the prisoners said that five men inside were wounded and unable to be evacuated.

Belkin says his soldiers have orders to bring out Sadaat "alive," but added, "If he will continue this way, he will be taken - not alive."

Palestinians consider Israeli incursions, though usually on a much-smaller scale, to be paramount proof of Israel's disregard of the peace agreements between the two peoples. But Israelis have condemned what they say is a "revolving door" prison system in which Palestinian convicted of killings and other serious crimes are allowed to come and go.

Israeli officials defended the move by saying that they were concerned that the government minister's assassins would be set free. "In the last four weeks there were several occasion in which we saw Palestinian prisoners being let go from the prison with the PA's acknowledgement, and we know in the end ... they will do it for these six [wanted men]."

So rather than wait for Palestine to do something blatantly wrong, Israel does something blatanly wrong as a means of prevention.

Seems really stupid to me.

Pharaoh
Mar 14th, 2006, 04:39 PM
I suppose they just couldn't stand the thought of Saadat being released by Hamas. They don't trust Hamas and I don't blame them, but I agree that maybe they should have waited, and then they'd get other countries on their side. The Israelis don't seem to care much about their PR, and I think that's admirable in a way, but it doesn't help their case.

Abcdxxxx
Mar 14th, 2006, 06:01 PM
"An Israeli siege of a Palestinian jail Tuesday could undermine Abbas. "

Talk about a biased headline...and as if Abbas' power hasn't already been undermined by Hamas, who announced they were going to free the a jail full of convicted criminals in the Fatah stronghold of Jericho? Or as if the BRITISH PEACE OBSERVORS WHO RAN FOR THE HILLS aren't to blame !!??!?

The crimes (which include major arms smuggling, and the assasination of a Knesset member) were commited in Israel's soveriegn territory. The convicted criinals belong in jail, in Israel.

Does Sirhan Sirhan have the right to be expedited to a Palestinian jail where Hamas can set him free?

ziggytrix
Mar 14th, 2006, 06:06 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition

you tell me.

Abcdxxxx
Mar 14th, 2006, 06:43 PM
So now, consider the STANDARD, and then consider that Arafat negotiated the right to keep these guys in a Palestinian jail with international observers. The second they left, Israel transfered the term of their sentence.

Ant10708
Mar 15th, 2006, 06:53 PM
With extreme force

Abcdxxxx
Mar 15th, 2006, 07:07 PM
Yeah, Israelis are extreme. They drink energy drinks, and watch Extreme Championship Wrestling DvD's to get hyped up before negotiating the surrender of a most wanted criminal. More people get killed in the Middle East during a typical days protest over cartoons. It's not extreme when Arabs kill Arabs though is it?

ziggytrix
Mar 15th, 2006, 07:37 PM
Are you morally equivocating again ABC? tst, tsk!

Abcdxxxx
Mar 15th, 2006, 08:04 PM
No, I'm calling people out on their double standards. Tsk, tsk?

ziggytrix
Mar 15th, 2006, 10:47 PM
Double standards... you mean like always exusing one group's violence as a necessary act of self defense, and always calling another's violence cruel and barbaric?

Man, I hate people who do that!

Abcdxxxx
Mar 16th, 2006, 01:04 AM
Oh look, Geggy Sr. is back.

No you're defining moral equivalency, and confused about the difference. It has nothing to do with equivalency when I ask you to show some interest in the Arab on Arab violence insead of focusing on Israeli on Arab violence, and it has everything to do with the fact that the greatest violence (or even injustice) against Arabs, and Palestinians is not at the hands of Israel. Hamas have stated that Israel's right to self defense is in and of itself an act of aggression. Is that what you're trying to say here? Are you really going to put in the effort to form some argument that Israel was being cruel and barbaric in taking custody of these prisoners? The multiple kidnappings, and other destruction as a response mean nothing to you? Talk about something you understand.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3228193,00.html

Fatah to Abbas: Dismantle PA
Organization activists say in letter to PA chairman that ‘unprecedented humiliation’ in Jericho shows PA has hit dead end; ‘You must demand international community take over responsibility for Palestinian people,’ they add

Is the PA crumbling? Dozens of Fatah activists throughout the West Bank demanded Wednesday that Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas announce the dismantlement of the PA following Israel’s operation in the Jericho prison Tuesday.

Senior Fatah members - including top lawmakers, district mayors, and members of the Palestinian National Council - signed a letter to Abbas Wednesday, saying: “You must demand of the international community to take responsibility for Israel’s conduct and for the rights of the Palestinian people.”

In the letter, the Fatah activists say that after the humiliation of the Palestinian security forces Tuesday witnessed by the whole world, and their inability to fulfill their jobs or keep the prisoners in the prisons, and considering Israel’s cooperation with the United Stated, the diplomatic process has hit a dead end.

“Therefore, we demand the PA announce its dismantlement as quickly as possible, owing to the absence of any hope of dealing with the occupation, and considering the American and British stances, and the complete hopelessness of attaining (Popular Front head captured by Israel Tuesday) Ahmad Saadat’s release, we see the dismantlement of the PA as the only solution,” the Fatah activists wrote.

‘Abbas has no option’

Speaking to Ynet, Taysir Nasrallah, a member of the Palestinian National Council and Fatah leader in Nablus, said: “We figure that if Israel does not announce the return of Saadat and his colleagues, and if Israel does not announce that it will stop building the security fence which is destroying the West Bank, and if the United States and Britain don’t apologize for cooperating in yesterday’s events, then Abbas has no option but to announce the dismantlement of the Palestinian Authority. And the world can carry the responsibility towards the Palestinians, and Israel can return to managing our lives here in all societal and infrastructural aspects.”

Nasrallah said that the Palestinian Authority experienced unprecedented humiliation on Tuesday.

“The Israeli army not only disarmed the Palestinian policemen and security officials in the Jericho prison, but disarmed the Palestinian Authority of its last shred of honor. And therefore if there is no change with relation to repatriating Saadat or the separation barrier, then Abbas has no choice left to him,” he added.

davinxtk
Mar 16th, 2006, 03:06 AM
ziggy, may i direct you to my crazy jew lecture?

KevinTheOmnivore
Mar 16th, 2006, 10:08 AM
This "escalation" came off of weeks of the U.S. and British negotiating to secure the prison. Both nations made it very clear that they'd leave if the prison wasn't made more secure, and they kept good on the promise.

I'm not sure how I feel about Israel's actions here, because I think it may have been precisely what Hamas wanted. Say you'll let the criminals go, goad Israel, and bam!.....top story on the BBC. I know it put Israel in a tough position, and it's unacceptable for Hamas to just let terrorists walk free.

And if I see one more story lead with "thus further undermining Abbas" I'm gonna go nuts. Abbas became irrelevant the moment Hamas took power. He has no power over them, and they will sink with that ship.

Abcdxxxx
Mar 16th, 2006, 10:57 AM
See, backup. When Israel gave back Gaza, it was under the pretense of a no tolerance policy. This week, they took these prisoners, they shut down an Islamic Jihad office in Bethlehem, and they've arrested a couple dozen wanted terrorists. These are counter-terrorism operations, in response to months of daily rocket attacks into the center of Israel, and fire bombings. The PLFP are openly threatening to assasinate another Cabinet Minister, and bragging that they have the ability to do so.

The job of the monitors was to make sure those guys stayed in jail. The commitment was to Israel, with the expectation they would give a 2 week notice if they were going to leave. Israel went right in, so there must have been some advance tip off, though probably less then promised.

These were the terms agreed to when Arafat demanded jurisdiction over these criminals, in Palestinian jails.
The monitors left because they felt threatened.

ziggytrix
Mar 16th, 2006, 11:04 AM
No you're defining moral equivalency, and confused about the difference. It has nothing to do with equivalency when I ask you to show some interest in the Arab on Arab violence insead of focusing on Israeli on Arab violence, and it has everything to do with the fact that the greatest violence (or even injustice) against Arabs, and Palestinians is not at the hands of Israel. Hamas have stated that Israel's right to self defense is in and of itself an act of aggression.


Tell ya what - quit thinking you can read my mind, cuz i'm quite aware I can't read yours, cuz all I'm getting from your post is that you seem to think I don't care when someone blows someone else up unless the exploder is of a certain ethnicity and the explodee is of a certain other ethnicity. But I really don't give a fuck what color someone is when the shit goes down.

Israel drove tanks into Palestinian territory and assaulted a Palestinian prison. Maybe their reason was fucking awesome. I didn't say one fuckin word about that. I'm just pointing and saying "hey, this situation is getting worse, not better".

You tell me how Israel is safer because of this prison raid, and I'll apologize for posting this story. I'm of the opinion they just poked a hornet's nest.

Geggy
Mar 16th, 2006, 11:10 AM
Sort of off topic, but can anyone tell me what is wrong with this picture...

http://www.yirmeyahureview.com/images/israel/hamas_starofdavid.JPG

KevinTheOmnivore
Mar 16th, 2006, 11:17 AM
Were you cut out of the photo?

Geggy
Mar 16th, 2006, 11:21 AM
You're a fool, kevin, i feel sorry for you

KevinTheOmnivore
Mar 16th, 2006, 11:25 AM
:)

Geggy
Mar 16th, 2006, 12:00 PM
Hey look you're quoting me in your sig! =)

Anyway why would a palestine wearing his true color have a tattoo of a star of David on his chest? Is it possible that he's wearing sunglasses to hide his blue eyes? And I thought all palestines' skin color are brown, so why is his hand so white-ish? Is it a mossad agent disguised as a palestine?

Or maybe the picture could be photoshopped by a jew-hating white supremacist for all I know. My point is if it is indeedy a mossad disguised as a palestine "terrorist" then who are the real assholes here?

KevinTheOmnivore
Mar 16th, 2006, 12:11 PM
I see chest hair.

Abcdxxxx
Mar 16th, 2006, 12:27 PM
You tell me how Israel is safer because of this prison raid, and I'll apologize for posting this story.


The story isn't the problem. It's your perception of it that worries me.

They took custody of a guy who organized the assasination of a cabinet member: Palestinian day workers, working at the King David Hotel shot the tourism minister in the head, and got out of Israel safely. It was an inside job, and holding the organizers accountable is a better option then cutting off Palestinians day labor entirely, no?

They took custody of people who organized an arms deal: The large boat they captured contained a high level weapons, including long range missiles meant to hit Tel Aviv, and other locations within Israel's green line. Palestinian towns are stocked with high grade weaponry stashed in hospitals and schools. That's considered a war crime.

The release of weapons smugglers, and assasins to Hamas would been an endangerment to all parties involved.


Geggy - For the last fucking time, Palestinians come in various shades, including WHITE. Stop being such an ethnocentric white militia bigot. You see a Jewish star, I see a blurry medialion, probably a bullet. You got them with the sunglasses though. Who needs sunglasses in the desert?

Abcdxxxx
Mar 16th, 2006, 12:47 PM
Check out the Mossad agents posing as Hamas. Everybody knows Palestinians have DARK SKIN (and really great social programs for the kids!)


http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/PalestinianChildAbuse/pal-child-abuse-15.jpg

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/PalestinianChildAbuse/pal-child-abuse-36.jpg

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/PalestinianChildAbuse/pal-child-abuse-43.jpg

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/PalestinianChildAbuse/pal-child-abuse-47.jpg

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/PalestinianChildAbuse/pal-child-abuse-54.jpg

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/PalestinianChildAbuse/pal-child-abuse-58.jpg

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/PalestinianChildAbuse/pal-child-abuse-73.jpg

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/PalestinianChildAbuse/pal-child-abuse-74.jpg

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/PalestinianChildAbuse/pal-kids-4-saddam-01.jpg

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/PalestinianChildAbuse/pal-kids-and-gunman.jpg

ItalianStereotype
Mar 16th, 2006, 02:35 PM
jesus christ geggy, fucking jesus christ.

ziggytrix
Mar 16th, 2006, 03:27 PM
The story isn't the problem. It's your perception of it that worries me.

They took custody of a guy who organized the assasination of a cabinet member


My perception worries you? Oh gosh!

I have no problem with Israel taking custody of this asshole. I just wish it hadn't been in the form of a tank assault just a few minutes after the observers left.

Right or wrong, resorting first to a military incursion and abduction - without even pretending to first go thru a halfway legitimate channel (or did they?) - is escalation, is it not? Do you not think some Palestinian asshole is gonna want to retaliate for this, and then the IDF will have to retaliate for that action, etc, etc, etc, until one of you xenophobic bastards does something that will get us all killed?



And on Geggy's tangent, dude, why do you think you see a tattoo of a Star of David in that incredibly low resolution and very pixelated image? Do you think it might be the same reason Catholics see the Virgin Mary in various stains, bread molds, and assorted flora?

Geggy
Mar 16th, 2006, 04:02 PM
you're kidding me, right?

Abcdxxxx
Mar 16th, 2006, 04:19 PM
Geggy - Do you still think Palestinian are identifiable by a Brown skin tone?! Yes, or no ?


Ziggy - Yes, Israel acted in accordance to an agreement brokered with Arafat, 4 years ago.

How is it an abduction? They surrendered.

You never have been able to grasp this past some lame cycle of violence analogy. When Israel usues targeted killings, you complain. When Israel uses military power to take criminals into custody, you complain. Do you have a better suggestion aside from releasing these people back into Palestinian society?

ziggytrix
Mar 16th, 2006, 07:33 PM
The Arafat agreement said "you guys can come in with tanks and extract this guy if the neutral observers leave"?! WOW! I did not know that.

If I broke into your house, heavily armed, shot a guy who looked like he might be reaching for a weapon, then asked one of your house guests to come with me, and they said "ok, ok, just don't shoot me" would you say it wasn't an abduction?

They couldn't make a request of the Palestinian government, since they "won't deal with Hammas" but they could have gone before the UN, and at least pretended that the IDF doesn't have a divine right to drive their tanks wherever they like, whenever they like (and shoot or roll over anyone who gets in the way).

So-called "targeted" killings kill innocents. I will complain when innocents are killed. Does my bleeding heart affect you one damn bit? Why do you care? You do realize, I'm not suggesting the proper response is violence against Israel, don't you? Maybe you don't. Maybe you think I think the terrorists are right to do what they do? I don't.

My better suggestion? Just declare war and get it over with. Have fun killing each other, and may God have mercy on you all.

Abcdxxxx
Mar 16th, 2006, 07:52 PM
Maybe you think I'm living in San Quentin... because you can't be serious with that analogy. "Just declare war" sounds like you really care about innocents.

SEE GEGGY!? When you grow up, you'll still be able to talk out of your ass just like Pappa.

ziggytrix
Mar 16th, 2006, 10:11 PM
OK, let's say it isn't you, but some kid living in Chicago or Dallas or New York City or any fucking urban area where crazier shit than that happens every week. Now can you take the analogy seriously?

5 guys mob up with guns, start shooting, tell someone to come with them or die, and it isn't an abduction?

Maybe the guy's a crack dealer and one of these five guys just lost a little sister to this guy's product? Who knows, who cares. We're talking about the definition of the fucking word "abduct" not guilt or innocence. Jesus Christ, you say I'm talking out of my ass just cuz you don't like what I'm saying.


I can't believe you took that bit about declaring war seriously. Fucking hell.

Abcdxxxx
Mar 16th, 2006, 11:48 PM
Don't worry, despite all appearances, I don't take anything you say seriously.

Jericho is on the Israeli map.
The IDF is an army from a soveriegn nation.
They transfered prisoners out of a Palestinian facility to an Israeli one.
These prisoners were convicted, and jailed under international monitor.
The PA refused to comply with their own agreement.
Israel followed a multi-nation agreement signed by the PA.

"5 guys mob up with guns, start shooting, tell someone to come with them or die, and it isn't an abduction?"


Yeah, sounds identical.