Americans and the "immigration debate"

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I think this article is mostly bullshit.

I love the idiots who are now saying "immigrants of the past left the old country behind and became Americans". That's absolutely fucking laughable.

Also, some of the criteria he sets for being "American"-- getting a drivers license, starting at a horrible job, getting their kids into school to learn english, etc.....the Hispanic community is DOING this, and if I hear one more conservative twit whine about them waving Mexican flags at the rallies I'm gonna go nuts. go take down the Irish flag at your bar, dipshit. They're 1-3 generations removed, you're like 10-12.

Ugh.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/04/why_americans_hate_this_immigr.html

April 04, 2006
Why Americans Hate This 'Immigration' Debate
By Herbert Meyer

One of the most striking features of the immigration debate now raging in Washington is that none of the Democratic or Republican proposals seem to hold any appeal for ordinary Americans--which is why this debate is generating so much frustration among voters that no matter which proposal Congress adopts, the issue itself threatens to shatter both parties' bases and dominate the November elections.

Simply put, the debate in Washington isn't about "immigration" at all - and that's the problem.

To ordinary Americans, the definition of "immigration" is very specific: You come here with absolutely nothing except a burning desire to be an American. You start off at some miserable, low-paying job that at least puts a roof over your family's head and food on the table. You put your kids in school, tell them how lucky they are to be here - and make darn sure they do well even if that means hiring a tutor and taking a second, or third, job to pay for it. You learn English, even if you've got to take classes at night when you're dead tired. You play by the rules--which means you pay your taxes, get a driver's license and insure your car so that if yours hits mine, I can recover the cost of the damages. And you file for citizenship the first day you're eligible.

Do all this and you become an American like all the rest of us. Your kids will lose their accents, move into the mainstream, and retain little of their heritage except a few words of your language and - if you're lucky--an irresistible urge to visit you now and then for some of mom's old-country cooking.

This is how the Italians made it, the Germans made it, the Dutch made it, the Poles made it, the Jews made it, and more recently how the Cubans and the Vietnamese made it. The process isn't easy - but it works and that's the way ordinary Americans want to keep it.

The Two Hispanic Groups

But the millions of Hispanics who have come to our country in the last several decades - and it's the Hispanics we're talking about in this debate, not those from other cultures--are, in fact, two distinct groups. The first group is comprised of "immigrants" just like all the others, who have put the old country behind them and want only to be Americans. They aren't the problem. Indeed, most Americans welcome them among us, as we have welcomed so many other cultures.

The problem is the second group of Hispanics. They aren't immigrants - which is what neither the Democratic or Republican leadership seems to understand, or wants to acknowledge. They have come here solely for jobs, which isn't the same thing at all. (And many of them have come here illegally.) Whether they remain in the U.S. for one year, or ten years - or for the rest of their lives - they don't conduct themselves like immigrants. Yes, they work hard to put roofs above their heads and food on their tables - and for this we respect them. But they have little interest in learning English themselves, and instead demand that we make it possible for them to function here in Spanish. They put their children in our schools, but don't always demand as much from them as previous groups demanded of their kids. They don't always pay their taxes - or insure their cars.

In short, they aren't playing by the rules that our families played by when they immigrated to this country. And to ordinary Americans this behavior is deeply - very deeply - offensive. We see it unfolding every day in our communities, and we don't like it. This is what none of our politicians either understands, or dares to say aloud. Instead, they blather on - and on - about "amnesty" and "border security" without ever coming to grips with what is so visible, and so offensive, to so many of us - namely, all these foreigners among us who aren't behaving like immigrants.

The phrase we use to describe foreigners who come here not as "immigrants" but merely for jobs is "guest workers." And we are told - incessantly - that we need these "guest workers" because they take jobs that Americans don't want and won't take themselves. This is true, but it's also disingenuous. Throughout our country's history, immigrants have always taken jobs that Americans don't want and won't take themselves. For crying out loud, no foreigner has ever come to our country out of a blazing ambition to dig ditches, mow lawns, bag groceries, sew clothing or clean other people's houses. If we hadn't always had a huge number of these miserable jobs available that none of "us" would do - there wouldn't have been a way for immigrants throughout the nineteenth and twentieth centuries to step off the boat and find work.

A willingness by "immigrants" to start at the bottom - so they can move up the economic ladder or at least give their kids a shot at the higher rungs - is precisely how the system is supposed to work. And it always has. (My own family is one of the tens of millions that did precisely this. My grandfather came from Poland and found work as a pocket-maker in New York's garment district. The pay was low, the hours were long, and when the old man finally retired he could hardly move his fingers or see without thick glasses. Yet one of his sons, my uncle, became a lawyer with a fancy practice on Manhattan's Upper East Side. His kids did even better; his son wound up chairman of Stanford University's history department, and his daughter became a famous art critic, moved to London, and married an Englishman who became a member of the House of Lords. What is astonishing about this story is that - it isn't astonishing. It's the sort of thing that happens all the time, and it's why ordinary Americans don't want to change the system that made it possible.)

Blame the Birth Rate

One fact that hasn't been part of the immigration debate is this: During the past two decades our national birth rate has dropped to just below the 2.1 births-per-woman replacement rate. So we really do need to "import" people because - to put it bluntly - we haven't bred enough of them ourselves to do all the work that needs to be done in an affluent, ageing society like ours. But then, we've always needed "more" people to do the work we want done. And we've always brought them in from elsewhere - as immigrants.

Yet today we have millions of foreigners among us who have come here to work, but not to immigrate. Our politicians tell us that we must accept this because - for the first time in our history--we've reached that point when we need "guest workers" who aren't immigrants to keep our economy growing. If this is true--and isn't it odd that no one has troubled to explain why it's true - then we must find some way to distinguish between "immigrants" and "guest workers" so that they aren't treated the same just because they both are here. And if it isn't true that our continued economic growth requires "guest workers" who aren't immigrants--then the entire concept of "guest workers" that lies at the core of virtually every proposal now before Congress, including amnesty for those who are here illegally, must be abandoned in favor of something that makes sense.

Until our elected officials come to grips with the real issue that's troubling ordinary Americans - not a growing population of foreigners among us, but rather a growing population of foreigners among us who aren't behaving like immigrants - public frustration will grow no matter what bill Congress passes in the coming weeks. It could lead to the kind of political explosion that none of us really wants.

Herbert E. Meyer served during the Reagan Administration as Special Assistant to the Director of Central Intelligence and Vice Chairman of the CIA’s National Intelligence Council. His DVD on The Siege of Western Civilization has become an international best-seller.

[mburbank]

You don't get very far into this article before you trip over it's central flaw.

"One of the most striking features of the immigration debate now raging in Washington is that none of the Democratic or Republican proposals seem to hold any appeal for ordinary Americans"


'ordinary americans'. What does the author mean by this? Simple. Ordinary Americans are people who think what he's about to tell you he thinks. That's what makes them ordinary. People who don't think what he thinks are extraordinary, down right wierd, freaks.

There's no point in even reading something thats starts out with the assumption that the author is on the side of what's ordinary, normal, right, and anything else is.... something else.

[kahljorn]

The only thing i don't get about this is how stupid the people really are when it comes to the issue of immigration, and to a lesser extent, citizenship. Like I mentioned in the other thread, these people are/were right outside my house protesting.
Are there any countries that you can legally illegally immigrate to? Is there any country where you don't have to gain citizenship to live and be considered a citizen there? If we moved to Mexico, wouldn't we have to gain citizenship? When criminals are trying to flee america, don't they usually get caught by the federalis? What's so wrong about wanting them to go through the legal immigration policy? These are the kinds of things these people don't seem to understand. EVERY COUNTRY HAS AN IMMIGRATION POLICY, AND EVERY COUNTRY HAS SOME KIND OF CITIZENSHIP POLICY(i could be wrong, but I'm assuming I'm right on this).
The only reason these people don't want this bill passed is because alot of them have family members or friends who are here illegally. Why can't these people become legal citizens? There is a process to go through. Why can't they do it? Do they have a criminal background? Are they lazy?
Another of their complaints seems to be that if they were legal citizens then employers would supposedly take money out of their paychecks. This is seriously a complaint I've heard. Yea, well no shit, they are called taxes you jackasses. Everybody but your illegal family members pay them to support the government.

There's a good reason for immigration policies, and it's mostly because we don't want useless people living here. Is that so wrong? There's also legal issues as well, like when they commit certain crimes in the states we really can't do much to them(depending on the crime).

This issue really makes me angry, not because of the issue itself(I don't think it should be a felony, depending o the seriousness of the felony, to cross the border), but because of the fact that the people who associate themselves with it are selfish cunts. Also because the opinions they have formed around it are stupid, ill-formed and really pretty much dwell within the realms of double-standards. They want everything for themselves, there's no leeway or anything. What they really want is a completely open border where anybody can come and go as they please, and this is what they are "Protesting" for.
Also, if you don't support their side of the matter they call you a racist, which I find ridiculous. They act like this bill is focused explicitley on them.

[mburbank]

I don't really know where I stand yet in this debate. I do know that a lot of the speciffic provisions of versions of the bills are draconian and completely unworkable.

Rightly or wrongly, a LOT of low cost labor in this country is done by illegals, and it's not the sort of work people are clamoring for. If we roundup the illegals, someone is going to need to do that work, and mostly citizens won't do it for the wage illegals will. I'd like to see that ystem reformed, personally, since I thnk paying people who are scared of being thrown in jail substandard wages is pretty harsh, but if you're only going to pay legals (and all the other fees you have to pay if you're obeying the law) that's going to have some far reaching effects we ought to think about and plan for.

In addition, if we make illegal immigration a felony, where the hell are we going to put all these criminals? Who's going to round them up? Who's going to pay for their incarceration, their housing, their processing, etc. etc. etc. I don't see the current bills making many spending provisions.

AND criminalizing aiding illegal aliens is beyond bizarre. Most religous oragizations and human rights groups don't have a citizenship requirement, and it's unthinkable that they should.

So the water remains muddy and the status quo (uninforced, uninforceable laws) rolls on. And it probably will continue to after alll the sound and fury of this current round of shouting is over.

I think a lot of people protest because they or their loved ones are threatened. They are trying to escape poverty and when you desperately want a better life and a better world in which to raise a family you do what you think you have to do. Sure they are breaking the law. But they also do back breaking work for the nation for very little money and we as a country rely on them.

It's a complicated symbiosis we are part of. It's a difficult, thorny debate. Good luck getting us to try to realiztically come up with a solution.

[Geggy]

I welcome illegal immigrants with open arms so taco bell's chalupa can be kept at low price.

Oh boy...I'm gonna hear from kevin on this...

[ziggytrix]

AND criminalizing aiding illegal aliens is beyond bizarre. Most religous oragizations and human rights groups don't have a citizenship requirement, and it's unthinkable that they should.


In the somewhat overhyped "bleeding to death" scenario, I find the criminalization of giving aid heinously immoral.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

kahl, a lot of these people are undocumented immigrants who had temporary VISAS that expired. A lot of them are young men and women who may have been born in Mexico, but who have essentially lived in America all of their lives. They might go to school, college, and even have their own business.

And the fact that you think the walkouts had no effect and were stupid shows that you're a bit uninformed on the matter. Half a million people marching on LA sends a message. Walkouts and protests all across the country, those like we haven't seen since the 60's, send a message. If you want to know why at least three different pieces of immigration reform legislation are now moving through Congress, look to the statement that hasbeen made by these people.

Americans and Canadians cross over the border all of the time in places like Wisconsin and Michigan. Where's the "terrorism" concern there?

We need to control our borders, and we need to fix our laws. But t blame the people who have come here and been supported here would be hypocritical, imo.

[kahljorn]

"And the fact that you think the walkouts had no effect and were stupid shows that you're a bit uninformed on the matter."

Where did I say that? Sure, I said they were stupid shows and they were. What else are highschool students interested in? However, you're saying that to a person who constantly says everything every person does effects everything. I say that all the damn time.

I don't really even know if your post was directed at me, because like I said, I don't agree with making it a felony. I just think their approach was ridiculous, especially the ideas they hold in their minds about it.

THIS IS MY INITIAL STATEMENT ON THE MATTER:
"The only thing i don't get about this is how stupid the people really are when it comes to the issue of immigration"
Okay?

"a lot of these people are undocumented immigrants who had temporary VISAS that expired. "

Can't they reapply?

"A lot of them are young men and women who may have been born in Mexico, but who have essentially lived in America all of their lives. They might go to school, college, and even have their own business. "

Can't they apply? I'm pretty sure the fact that they work and live here successfully and contribute to america would probably show that they would make good citizens.

Did you even read my post?

"Where's the "terrorism" concern there?"

Well, hypothetically I think canada might have better controlled borders, customs and other laws that would make it safer and less likely that a terrorist would cross there. Really the terrorist concern was more of a, "What if" type thing, and i think making illegal immigracy a felony might give them a bit more leeway into finding information on suspected terrorists who come here illegally. Again, all that is hypothetical, all I really care about is the fact that the people protesting are protesting for stupid reasons. I don't really care if you're right about something if your approach and reasons for doing so are ridiculously stupid and ill-informed.
Does this bill deal only with illegal immigracy from mexico? That's what I want to know. Doesn't it deal with ALL illegal immigration?

I'm going to start italicizing things i think are important because people seem to have problems understanding me.

P.S. Can you at least answer some of the questions I posed, because some of them I'm not sure of the validity. Also, do you mind telling me what you think of the points? Thanks.

[ziggytrix]

Staying on an expired Visa is grounds from deportation. If you are late in reapply, you are an illegal alien.

http://uscis.gov/graphics/howdoi/extendstay.htm

If I'm not mistaken, under the proposed law, failing to turn in this paperwork on time would be a felony if you hadn't already left the country.

I got really sidetracked looking for details on the exact legislation that was proposed. I'm wagering most folks can't tell you exactly what it was apart from "making illegal immigrants and anyone who helped them felons" which I doubt is the exact wording of the bill... So anyway, I just read that today Sen. McCain told some AFL-CIO members that Americans won't pick lettuce in Arizona for $50 an hour... I think he meant $15 or is being misquoted though. Mostly cuz I don't think people would buy lettuce at the price it would cost to be able to pay the workers $50/hour.

[kahljorn]

"Staying on an expired Visa is grounds from deportation"

That site says it's possible to renew your visa. I don't get why they couldn't do that. Are they too busy or too important to worry about their immigracy status? Oh wait, apparantly not, because they have the time to cooperate in protests.
I like how the website says that working with/around the immigration rules is an important thing if you plan on attaining citizenship at a later time. Imagine that concept. I can't think of anything in my life-time where following the rules and guidelines showed that I was responsible and should be accepted.
I can understand if they tried and were denied, but for some reason I doubt they even bothered trying. I just think they should at least try the system before abandoning and complaining, especially at this scale.

Anyway; again, it's pretty fucked up to charge people with a felony for wanting to have a good life and provide for their families. Personally, I think the immigration policy should be reworked to make it easier for people who deserve to be here to be here.

here's some information I've found, since you had some problems ziggy:

Arizona Legislation (http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/47leg/2r/bills/sb1157s.htm)
Some interesting points of it, since i know how lazy you people are about clicking links:

B. The arresting authority shall fingerprint a person who is arrested for a violation of this section. At the discretion of the arresting authority on the first offense, the person may be transferred to the federal agency with jurisdiction or referred for prosecution.
From some interpretations I saw this means that first offenders can be deported without being charged. However, multiple offenses will be charged more severly.

That law references this, which provides punishments for avoiding immigration:
Section 1325 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001325----000-.html)

It's considered a class six felony under arizona law, which carries these penalties:
For Class 6 felonies, the jury or court may choose imprisonment for one to five years or jail for up to 12 months and a fine of up to $2,500, either or both.
It is considered the lowest form of a felony.
Multiple offenders get class four, which carries the penalty of:
"imprisonment for two to 10 years and a fine of up to $100,000"

[Marc Summers]

I took a Latino Studies class (which of course makes me an authority :rolleyes) but here's my opinion:

Most Mexicans crossing the border leave a lot of their family behind, especially if they're illegal. If you want to communicate, you need to retain the language, and language is also a part of cultural identity. There is no "expected immigrant behavior". Part of what America prides itself on is the freedom it gives to its citizens on how they can act, worship, or pretty much how they live their lives (within reason). If all immigrants in the past have acted "as expected", why do we have cultural enclaves like Little Italy and Chinatown and whatnot? I'm not blind, I do see Spanish becoming more prevalent here in SoCal, but so what? I don't see why anyone should be upset if Latinos suddenly become the majority. Telling immigrant groups to act like a true American is beyond rude in my opinion; it tells me that person has no respect for that person's heritage or for the melting pot (oh, I went there) of culture that is the U.S.

However, I think everyone is missing the bigger picture here, which is why we have such an influx of Latino immigrants. My theory on this is two causes: NAFTA (with CAFTA signed recently) and corruption south of the border. Government corruption always has people fleeing a country, which is understandable. NAFTA, however, is a little trickier. When people think about NAFTA, they think "Oh yay! Free trade!" but don't consider the consequences. With NAFTA, Mexico is able to buy beans and rice at a lower cost than producing those themselves. This creates a major problem for Mexican farmers, who no longer can make money growing food for their own country. Millions have already been forced to seek work elsewhere, and Mexico isn't really known for being urbanized or industrialized.

Most illegal immigrants are illegal because there is an INTENSE bureaucratic process in becoming a citizen here. Both governments intentionally make it difficult to become a citizen by setting up a horrific bureaucratic maze. It also takes a few years to just get a visa. On another point, there is a surprising number of illegals who pay taxes. The IRS probably has the best idea of how many illegals are in this country, because if you don't have a SSN (which would signify that you're a citizen), they can assign you a random number to use in that field.

Illegals also contribute greatly to the economy. Yes, they do take up jobs, but they're usually jobs that other people really don't want to do. California probably has the highest number of illegals out of all the states, yet still remains as one of the largest economies in the world.

[kahljorn]

"If you want to communicate, you need to retain the language, and language is also a part of cultural identity"

When the hell did any law tell them to completely forget their language and heritage? Will learning english or american history force them to forget their language and cultural identity?
Other than that I enjoyed your post.

"This creates a major problem for Mexican farmers, who no longer can make money growing food for their own country."

This is a very interesting point. A similar point i heard good ol' Ahnold bring up is that alot of farmers have alot of difficulties in attaining citizenship because of the fact that in order to gain citizenship(or visas) you have to have some sort of skill, and picking grapes(his words) isn't a skill.

I've heard there was actually some discussion of more thoroughly integrating North America. I love this idea, but can't really see it happening in light of our extremely differing economies and culture(mostly between canada/us and mexico).

lol a funny idea shouldn't they be protesting in mexico instead of here if the conditions there are so bad?

"It also takes a few years to just get a visa."

I didn't know it was that difficult nor that it took nearly that long(assuming this isn't exagerrated), I withdraw my comments on, "why can't they renew their visas". Actually, wait, no i don't because renewing is easier(it says to file for renewance 45 days before it's up, so I'm assuming they could have it done by then). More like, "Why can't they apply for visas", however;
Wait:
(who knows if the following information is true)
http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/faq.htm#q13
it says it takes 6-9 months on average, depending on the office, to process citizenship applications.

[ziggytrix]

That site says it's possible to renew your visa. I don't get why they couldn't do that.

You asked a question, I answered it. I don't know why someone lets their Visa expire, but I don't think it should be a felony to forget about your paperwork.

Have you ever paid a bill late? Why couldn't you just pay it on time? What if the company said, "Sorry, no late payments. We aren't going to do business with you for 5 years."?

Also, are you sure that link you gave me is to the legislation that everyone was getting so upset over? It said nothing about criminalizing giving aid to an illegal alien...

At any rate, by some accounts if tomorrow every single illegal immigrant just vanished into thin air, we'd have an economic recession by Monday.

[kahljorn]

"Have you ever paid a bill late? Why couldn't you just pay it on time? What if the company said, "Sorry, no late payments. We aren't going to do business with you for 5 years."? "

The website also said that if you're late and there's a good reason for it(it listed some good reasons, perhaps one of them was family emergency or something, but I doubt being lazy was on the list) they would still consider renewing your visa. Kind of like when you pay a bill late eh?

"You asked a question, I answered it."

And i expanded on it ;/ it's not like i insulted you or anything, quit bitching because we're having a discussion.

"are you sure that link you gave me is to the legislation that everyone was getting so upset over?"

Probably not, that's why I took care to note that it was the arizona legislation. I really only looked at it because I wanted to see the punishment. I'll try to find the one about aiding illegal immigrants.

"by some accounts if tomorrow every single illegal immigrant just vanished into thin air, we'd have an economic recession by Monday."

By some accounts tomorrow if it rained in brazil somewhere in china a man could find gold and spend it all on hookers by next tuesday.

[ziggytrix]

So you do not believe our current economy relies on the availability of undocumented immigrant labor? Any politician who is talking about "Guest Worker" programs right now clearly does. That's a big part of this controversy.

BTW, I totally agree with you that plenty of the protesters are ignorant, juvenile, or just hangers-on - but that is true of almost ANY protest.

[kahljorn]

"So you do not believe our current economy relies on the availability of undocumented immigrant labor?"

I'm sure it's a big part of it(especially in the border states) but for some strange reason I doubt we'd have an economic recession if there weren't illegal immigrants anymore. Did you know in places that aren't along the mexican border(I believe this even includes northern california) there's almost no mexicans? True story, people there put ketchup on their tacos. KETCHUP. They don't even know what enchiladas are, they probably think that it's some kind of musical instrument.

I also agree that protests are generally full of ignorant people who don't understand what they are talking about. I really probably shouldn't have even mentioned their behavior, I was just pissy about them protesting outside of my house and blocking traffic and all of that shit for their stupid opinions. Plus they scream at anybody who doesn't agree with them and call them a racist(not that that happened to me, I just ignore them). They also compare us(america) to hitler because we don't let people immigrate in freely, I guess that's what we get for letting them bake in mexico apparantly.

[kahljorn]

Story on the new immigration law (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IMMIGRATION?SITE=CAVAN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

This is exactly what I was hoping would come out of this. People who have lived here successfully for many years and can show it will, more than likely, now be able to obtain citizenship quite easily. Although, what's with this temporary worker thing they were talking about? I knew there was such a program(though not the specifics), but then why is there such a fucking issue with being here illegally if they could've just become temporary workers in the past?

According to this, workers who have lived here 2-5 years will have to "Go home' and return shortly afterwards as a temporary worker. People who have been here more than five years can stay, and people who have been here less than two years are fucked. Sounds great.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

There's various classes of HB-whatever visas.

I want to read through this, I'll respond later.....

[cba1067950]

Another of their complaints seems to be that if they were legal citizens then employers would supposedly take money out of their paychecks. This is seriously a complaint I've heard. Yea, well no shit, they are called taxes you jackasses. Everybody but your illegal family members pay them to support the government.


well yes and no. being that we assume that most of them are working jobs off the books... they probably wouldnt be getting taxed either way. so illegal or legal it doesnt matter. unless theyre working at taco bell or some job where theyd be paying income tax already it really wouldnt make much of a difference.

Rightly or wrongly, a LOT of low cost labor in this country is done by illegals, and it's not the sort of work people are clamoring for. If we roundup the illegals, someone is going to need to do that work, and mostly citizens won't do it for the wage illegals will. I'd like to see that ystem reformed, personally, since I thnk paying people who are scared of being thrown in jail substandard wages is pretty harsh, but if you're only going to pay legals (and all the other fees you have to pay if you're obeying the law) that's going to have some far reaching effects we ought to think about and plan for.

i would take their fucking job in a second. i have people hire mexicans who work on my house all the time and they get paid better than i do. granted they work a lot harder than i do but still its not like its not competitive. the only reason i dont stand on the street corner trying to get picked up by guys is because i dont fit in with a bunch of spanish speaking older men. plus i never could pick up guys. teenage and college kids would do the same work though. i cant see how that arguement makes sense economically. kids get paid like $6.00 an hour to work shitty jobs as is. white kids might possibly get some sort of insurance if they got hurt and ma/pa probably wouldnt let them get their legs chopped off but i dont know... off the books jobs are pretty shady.

[Dr. V]

Teddy said it best:
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language.. And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907
I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Preechr]

I think I'll just be happier when the conservative angle obtusifies itself into something other than the "It's an invasion!" thing-a-ma-jigger. That, and if I hear the argument that all illegals are inherently criminals because they broke the ridiculous and labyrinthine immigration tangle of laws to begin their lives here I'll throw up. As if no "real" American ever broke a law they felt, at the time, was both stupid and against their interests, only to move on and remain a decent person.

When any sort of official or pundit of note takes the tack toward revamping the immigration process into something this side of an at least ten-year (if not interminable) process, somebody please wake me up. People cannot be expected to devote such a large portion of their lifespan to just becoming an American citizen on paper. On one hand, that's simply an outrageous presumption, but on the other, it's a cause and effect issue that is responsible for the closed communities of immigrants alluded to in the above Roosevelt quote.

Our current immigration process is economic slavery.

[Chojin]

That, and if I hear the argument that all illegals are inherently criminals because they broke the ridiculous and labyrinthine immigration tangle of laws to begin their lives here I'll throw up.
There's a reason they're called 'illegals', you know; It isn't just a fancy gang name.

It definitely feels like an invasion, and I live on the east coast, pretty far from the border. Everything I buy these days has instructions in spanish and english. I work on a construction site as part of the only non-illegal labor force there. Whatever the reason, it is still trespassing. Many Americans have a "come on my property and you's gon' get shot" attitude, and these people are basically coming into your neighborhood and throwing a block party. In spanish. With festive outfits. And we can all pretty much agree that hispanic music is terrible.

In my opinion they should be deported. There are PLENTY of Americans who WOULD 'deign' to do manual labor, and it is neither this country's fault nor duty to enrich these peoples' otherwise harder lives.

But then, no-one would have an opinion if they had all the facts.

[cba1067950]

It definitely feels like an invasion, and I live on the east coast, pretty far from the border. Everything I buy these days has instructions in spanish and english.

fuck... another language? i can barely speak english. damnit i dont want to be cultured.

I work on a construction site as part of the only non-illegal labor force there. Whatever the reason, it is still trespassing. Many Americans have a "come on my property and you's gon' get shot" attitude, and these people are basically coming into your neighborhood and throwing a block party. In spanish. With festive outfits. And we can all pretty much agree that hispanic music is terrible.

yea americans are quite hospitable. we dont live up to the stereotype of gun tootin rednecks at all.

[ziggytrix]

I've decided this whole thing is just further evidence that our current culture loves to push blame off on the most convenient person.

The problem is not illegal immigration. The problem is American citizens who willingly break the law by hiring illegal immigrants as a source of cheap labor.

They aren't coming here for an invasion. They aren't coming here to steal healthcare and public education. They're coming here for American dollars. Solve the problem of why employers are willing to break the law to hire illegals, and the immigration issue would follow.

[kahljorn]

Yea, ziggy, it's basically the same as relocating a factory because you can pay less. Oh wait, that's not what they are doing, they are just helping the disadvantaged. :rolleyes

I like your approach.

[Preechr]

That, and if I hear the argument that all illegals are inherently criminals because they broke the ridiculous and labyrinthine immigration tangle of laws to begin their lives here I'll throw up.
There's a reason they're called 'illegals', you know; It isn't just a fancy gang name.

It definitely feels like an invasion, and I live on the east coast, pretty far from the border. Everything I buy these days has instructions in spanish and english. I work on a construction site as part of the only non-illegal labor force there. Whatever the reason, it is still trespassing. Many Americans have a "come on my property and you's gon' get shot" attitude, and these people are basically coming into your neighborhood and throwing a block party. In spanish. With festive outfits. And we can all pretty much agree that hispanic music is terrible.

In my opinion they should be deported. There are PLENTY of Americans who WOULD 'deign' to do manual labor, and it is neither this country's fault nor duty to enrich these peoples' otherwise harder lives.

But then, no-one would have an opinion if they had all the facts.

I feel your pain. I used to work in construction as well, but the thing that always got me was that the ratio of American (black or white) work crews to Latin ones was always so dramatically skewed. I remember that the Anglos and the Negros sure worked as if they didn't want to be there, and I remember that the labor crews I did hire that originated south of the border tended to be pretty reliable in contrast.

That was several years ago, though... before they learned skilled trades like HVAC and Electrical. I can only imagine that by now the ratio in a lot of regions has become so skewed as to have rendered American labor crews nearly non-existant. If you are on one of the ones that are left, it's gotta be a lonely job site for a non-Latino.

That being said, the cultural differences between them and us I'd write off to normal human reaction to the situation in which our laws have left them. Ten years? Isn't that a bit excessive for a probationary period?

I'm a libertarian capitalist. I see no reason whatsoever to deny whomever wants it the American Economy as long as they are willing to participate in some sort of positive regard. I am part immigrants from many places and part Native. I can look back in American history and see that every wave of immigrants from every part of the world was in their turn discriminated against and oppressed for profit in much the same way our latest batch is.

We've even gone so far as to find our latest whipping boys within just a couple of years ago, with our wonderful little election referendum on gay marriage. It seems that whenever we find any opportunity to do so We The People, those that are born in the land that first implemented the concept that all our rights are born within us regardless of any other circumstances, just can't resist the temptation to deny the natural born rights of anyone we can.

EVERY single batch of immigrants that's ever washed up on our shores faced the same two-faces of America, from the Chinese to the Irish to the Thai. We despised them and then forced them into labor, and they eventually applied themselves to some ignored section of our American lifestyles, taking it over.

Just as gas prices go up EVERY summer and there's always a new reason why, Meso and South American immigrants are just the latest invasion of "other." It's just a bunch of political bullshit between now and once everybody's accepted it and moved on the the next group of victims.

[Johnny Couth]

One of my music teachers was canadian, and he worked illegally in the music department of my school for two months, until he finally got his work visa. They would never charge him, or the school for providing him with a job, as felons because he is a) canadian, b) white, c) middle class.

[kahljorn]

How long does it take to get a work visa or some other right to live in the USA?

Seems most people are misunderstanding it, or maybe I'm misunderstanding them, but I don't think it takes any longer than 2-3 years. I think there's also different programs that work faster.

[Carnivore]

I'll never disparage anyone who comes here to earn an honest living, pay taxes, and respect the law. I confess that I do become a little... irked when someone residing in this country does not speak English (I have to deal with this at work almost daily), but usually the second generation, educated in American schools, is bilingual, so it tends to correct itself over time. These people we want. We need to make it easier for these people to get the documentation they need to stay and eventually become citizens. If they let their visas expire by accident, let it slide. I got caught driving with an expired license once. I just hadn't got around to renewing it. The magistrate told me to fix it and let me off. Same deal.

I can't truly hate the ones that come here illegally because we don't (from what I understand) make it easy for them to be here legally. They also irk me, however, because they do not pay taxes and are given free healthcare and other services. We need to take away their excuse that it's too hard to do things the right way. Once that's done, the ones who still come here illegally should be loaded onto a giant trebuchet and launched back over the border.

It's all well and good to have your little flag from the old country (in which your great grandparents actually lived) so long as it's in its proper place, below the flag of the USA.

[Preechr]

There is no reason we couldn't set up a system where immigrants could be thoroughly vetted within about 60 days upon entry into this country. If we want to get all uptight about it, put one of those tracking anklets on em, like they use for people under house arest, or maybe even stick em in one of our closed down military bases so we can run them through a citizenship boot camp.

Concerned about overloading our social welfare systems? Put their citizenship on a provisional basis for five years or so where nothing is free. Worst case scenario, they can always run north to Canada's open arms for a free lunch. Worried that they won't learn the language? Require it as a condition of full citizenship. You can do the same thing with healthcare by requiring them to purchase and retain health insurance. If we can submit them to the red-tape they currently are subjected to, I think it's pretty safe to say we could do whatever we want and get away with it.

Any legitimate concerns anyone has about immigration can be addressed rationally. That is not what this little crapfest is about. Our legislators are not working on fixing any problems right now. They are creating a boogey man to be burned in effigy for the elections. Those that cannot govern with leadership based in reason manipulate with fear and prejudice.

As I said before, we have a bad tendancy toward persecuting anyone we can whenever we can gin up an appropriate seeming excuse to do so. OUR rights are God-given, but everybody else has to get them from us.

[kahljorn]

"There is no reason we couldn't set up a system where immigrants could be thoroughly vetted within about 60 days upon entry into this country."

What does vetted mean? Also, I think the reason it takes so long is because, first off, there's probably tons of people trying to immigrate and there's a line(there actually is a line, and a list that shows where you are in the line to gain a visa). Also, they are doing criminal/background checks and those sometimes take a while, especially, I'm assuming, if it's from another country and there's a huge line of people. The wait is a bit ridiculous, though.

"If we want to get all uptight about it, put one of those tracking anklets on em, like they use for people under house arest, or maybe even stick em in one of our closed down military bases so we can run them through a citizenship boot camp. "

I like both of those ideas, and with your suggestion of "Vetting" them maybe we could put one of those animal tracking devices on them when we get their immunizations done.

"we have a bad tendancy toward persecuting anyone we can whenever we can gin up an appropriate seeming excuse to do so. OUR rights are God-given,"

Persecuting and trying to protect our "god-given rights" while maintaining our current life-style are two completely different things. However, I do agree that many people are probably harboring irrational feelings on this subject.

Simply changing the immigration policy isn't so simple. There's many factors to consider, including the ramifications a few million new people will add to the stress of the country, economically and culturally. I'd be interested in hearing what types of effects propsed solutions would have, if people even think like that.

[cba1067950]

There is no reason we couldn't set up a system where immigrants could be thoroughly vetted within about 60 days upon entry into this country. If we want to get all uptight about it, put one of those tracking anklets on em, like they use for people under house arest, or maybe even stick em in one of our closed down military bases so we can run them through a citizenship boot camp.

Concerned about overloading our social welfare systems? Put their citizenship on a provisional basis for five years or so where nothing is free. Worst case scenario, they can always run north to Canada's open arms for a free lunch. Worried that they won't learn the language? Require it as a condition of full citizenship. You can do the same thing with healthcare by requiring them to purchase and retain health insurance. If we can submit them to the red-tape they currently are subjected to, I think it's pretty safe to say we could do whatever we want and get away with it.

Any legitimate concerns anyone has about immigration can be addressed rationally. That is not what this little crapfest is about. Our legislators are not working on fixing any problems right now. They are creating a boogey man to be burned in effigy for the elections. Those that cannot govern with leadership based in reason manipulate with fear and prejudice.

As I said before, we have a bad tendancy toward persecuting anyone we can whenever we can gin up an appropriate seeming excuse to do so. OUR rights are God-given, but everybody else has to get them from us.

its funny because ethically letting them into the country so we can treat them like criminals isnt really much better than deporting them as criminals. im sure no one would care either way. i guess its better to be an american criminal than a mexican citizen.