They Wonder Why We Support Israel

[Kulturkampf]

Heart-wrenching story:

JERUSALEM - A Florida teen died Sunday of wounds suffered in a suicide bombing last month at a fast food outlet in Tel Aviv.

Daniel Wultz, 16, of Weston, a suburb of Fort Lauderdale, recovered enough to tell his Israeli doctors "I want to live. Please help me," according to Avi Zuri of Davie, Fla., who recently returned home from Wultz's Tel Aviv bedside. The teen was fighting a strong tide, however.

"They (the doctors) thought he had a 5 percent chance of living," said Zuri, an escort for 44 students from the David Posnack Hebrew Day School in Plantation, Fla., who flew to Israel to pray for their 10th grade classmate.

"I'm in total shock, said Rachel Keller, director of Judaic Studies at Posnack. "We were sure that all our prayers were going to help."

Wultz, who was the 11th fatality in the April 17 attack, was in Tel Aviv with his parents, Tuly and Sheryl Wultz, visiting his grandparents and celebrating Passover. He and his father had stepped out for a snack at The Mayor's Falafel when a 21-year-old suicide bomber named Samir Hammad detonated 30 pounds of explosives at the entrance to the popular eatery.

"Daniel was thrown into my hands, and asked me to pick him up," Tuly Wultz, who suffered a leg injury, told the Jerusalem Post shortly afterward. "But when I saw the extent of his injuries, I laid him down to wait for an ambulance. I held his hand and told him I loved him, and he told me he loved me." (Knight Ridder (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/14579526.htm)).

It is hard to understand anyone's opinions if they feel the need to detonate bombs in civilian areas, aimed at inflicting mass casualties. A more shocking pat:

Suicide bomber Hammad, from the remote West Bank village of Arka, left behind a videotape of himself wearing the black-and-gold headband of the militant group Islamic Jihad, which claimed responsibility for the attack.

In his videotape, Hammad said: "We say to the enemy that our operations will continue and the martyrs are coming, and they love death and martyrdom as much as you love life."

Hammad's mother, Samia, praised her son in an interview with a Knight Ridder reporter shortly after the attack. "I am proud of what he did," she said. "If my other sons follow in the footsteps of their brother, I would be proud."

A lot of people wonder why the US is so slow to throw any support behind the Palestinian cause, but I think in incidences like this the answer is quite clear: the Palestinians promote terrorist activites doctrinally, and culturally have proven to be more than lacking to live up to the term 'civilized.'

We are not asking for Palestinians to give up their religion, but rather, we are asking them why they think they are responsible enough to have their own state if the only precedent we have seen from them is one of inflicting terror on civilian targets.

Any society with a collective glorification of terrorism, where children are often dressed in imitation of them at rallies of the elected, ruling political party Hamas, will never have my moral backing.

There seems to be little choice other than support for Israel, being that there is no other alternative that makes sense.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

thanks.

[mburbank]

Well. I'm pretty bowled over by your heroic and unique view that terrorism is bad. I'll have to give that some thought, as really, it never crossed my mind.

"we are asking them why they think they are responsible enough to have their own state if the only precedent we have seen from them is one of inflicting terror on civilian targets. "

Hah! I WISH statehood came with a responsability requirement. It doesn't, it never has, and how unexpected you obviously see yourself as part of a 'responsability' Kulture that would be in a good position to decide who gets a state and who doesn't.

"There seems to be little choice other than support for Israel, being that there is no other alternative that makes sense."

Have you ever thought of being Secretary of Sate? What are you, Binary? There are about a bajillion alternatives, which you tacitally acknowledge by not giving us any hint of what 'support' might mean.
'Support' could cover everything from saying 'You go, girl' to Nuking every one of their enemies.

And heartfelt support from someone who calls himself 'KulturKampf'? NOT what Jews generally find reasuring.

[The One and Only...]

KK and I are destined to engage in fatal combat. There can only be one.

[Spectre X]

Mortal combat over what? The title of the supreme big cheese douche turd of the internet?

[Miss Modular]

We when again, fucker.

[Kulturkampf]

We do when again...

But seriously...

What do you think we could do? Help prop up a Palestinian state that refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to existence? The last thing we need is another Arab state that thinks the world owes them something.

[mburbank]

You're rigt. Propping them up and doggedly supporting all of Israels actions ARE the only two choices on the table.

[Dole]

Palestinian state that refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to existence

Erm...irony?

[Preechr]

rofl

[Kulturkampf]

I do not think i ti sthat ironic --- the Israelis are willing to make deals with the Palestinians and the overwhelming majority have no interest in permanently holding the Gaza Strip or the West Bank, whereas for Palestinians it is generally "all or nothing."

Furthermore, if we do not help support the Israeli state we will have 1967 all over again - they need our help.

[hamster of smite]

You are so right K we DO need to support Israel. How else is Israel going to eradicate refugee camps, like Sabra and Chatila, without US military equipment.

[Kulturkampf]

You are so right K we DO need to support Israel. How else is Israel going to eradicate refugee camps, like Sabra and Chatila, without US military equipment.

They could eradicate them with machine guns carried at the hip to make sure they get the kids, too.

[hamster of smite]

I knew I could count on you to find the bright side of any situation.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You are so right K we DO need to support Israel. How else is Israel going to eradicate refugee camps, like Sabra and Chatila, without US military equipment.

Yeah, except if you're really keeping an Arab death toll, Arab regimes (including the PA) are way ahead on that list.....

[Abcdxxxx]

You are so right K we DO need to support Israel. How else is Israel going to eradicate refugee camps, like Sabra and Chatila, without US military equipment.

The Christian Phallanges committed those murders. Not Israel. At best, Israel can only be held "indirectly" responsible.

Israel has not eradicated a single "refugee camp", all of which were established under Arab rule to begin with.

Israel's largest wars were fought using Czech, and French arms, not US military equipment.

[Kulturkampf]

Wow...

Kev and ABCD and I vaguely, and I mean vaguely, appear to be in some sort of loose consensus on a solitary point that Palestinian Authority has not done a good job and the Israelis are not the devil.

That is incredible. I almost want to halt all discussion before we drift drastically apart gain, and savor the moment.

This could be the first time ever where KK got along with smeone other than Pharaoah or the guy who I am the stand-in replacement for.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

ABC defends Israel!!?? :eek

[hamster of smite]

While I will admit that wasn't the best example, I feel Israel was more then "indirectly" responsible for the masacres.

The Phallanges militias (among others groups) at the time were being supplied and trained by Israel to combat the PLO during the civil war in Lebanon.

The militias who did the dirty work had been invited to enter the camps to clear out PLO fighters by Israeli commanders, it should be pretty easy to guess who one of the commanders was.

During the 3 days that the massacres were taking place Israel army units surronded the camps and turned back civilians who were trying to escape. As well as resupplying the militias through the course of the whole affair. I believe they even lent a bulldozer to destroy buildings in the camps.

In a very real sense Israeli military units had been providing support to the Phallanges militiamen.

In response to your last point Israel has probably killed a hell of a lot more people in between the "official" wars then during them, and the US has been providing huge ammounts of aid for Israel for over 30 years. In the last decade or so half of the aid Israel recieves is "Forgein Military Financing" which is where we help Israel buy weapons from us, that is when we aren't givin' em away, hot off the press! as we say.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

So, no mention of Iran and Hezbollah? You should probably read this (http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=22337).


"In response to your last point Israel has probably killed a hell of a lot more people in between the "official" wars then during them, and the US has been providing huge ammounts of aid for Israel for over 30 years. In the last decade or so half of the aid Israel recieves is "Forgein Military Financing" which is where we help Israel buy weapons from us, that is when we aren't givin' em away, hot off the press! as we say."

Wow, you really hit upon all of the campus brochure talking points there. What if I told you Israel was open to the idea of reducing the amount of aid they get from us?

They'll get those weapons and resources from somebody, believe that much. So the choice that Americans have is do they want to continue supporting the only true democracy in the Middle East, or do they want to abandon that and let countries like India and/or China step in???

[ziggytrix]

"If we don't make the weapons someone else will," has been a winning argument since some troglodyte realized he had a knack for making killing implements.

It's probably something akin to instinct at this point. :(

[KevinTheOmnivore]

It's not about who simply makes the weapons. The point is that there will be a weaponized Israel doing what they do regardless. So, would you rather WE have influence and sway over their actions, or would you rather China have it?

[Abcdxxxx]

The Sabra Shatilla massacre was the outcome of a 25+ year civil war, but it was not a 3 day event.

The PLO had just failed coup attempts in every neighboring country, and moved on to their next target, Lebanon. Israel's only interest was securring Southern Lebanon, not kill Palestinians. The PLO had been entering into Israel's border, taking hostages, and killing American tourists. Are you suggesting it was Israel's responsibility to occupy Lebanon and keep these fueding factions apart? Israel was ordered to leave. The Phallanges were in power, and the massacre was avenging the assasination of he Lebanese president.


Israel has probably killed a hell of a lot more people in between the "official" wars then during them

No the point beng made was that Arab nations have killed more people then Israel ever has. Jordan alone killed 20,000 Palestinians during a failed coup attempt.

[hamster of smite]

What if I told you Israel was open to the idea of reducing the amount of aid they get from us?
If you are refering to the 1996 plan under Netanyahu, I thought that Israel would be reducing it's economic aid but increase it's military aid, but I could be wrong. Even so I find a bit odd considering that as far as I can tell Israel is not very economically self suficient and leans heavily on US economic/military aid.

[hamster of smite]

No the point beng made was that Arab nations have killed more people then Israel ever has. Jordan alone killed 20,000 Palestinians during a failed coup attempt.
And I don't disagree with you there, a lot of the Arab states have done what they have done more out of attempts to shift the balance of power between Israel and themselves, then actaully trying to achieve any kind of self determination for Palestinians. But that doesn't change the fact that Israel has done it's fair share of repression against Palestinians, and I feel that while Sabra and Chatila was not actually directly carried out by Israeli forces the whole situation was indicative of Israel's treatment of Palestinians; I merely use it becuase it is the most well known event regarding such things, I suppose the way i used it could be likened to campus pamphlets (that one was to Kevin).

I guess one of the points of contention here is what was the real nature of Israel's involvement in the civil war that led to the massacres. First of all my own feelings on it, was that Israel's ivasions had a couple of reasons behind it, one was it's attempts to destroy the PLO and create a buffer zone in the north against terrorist organizations and the northern Arab states like Syria. And it was also a response to Syria's invasion to make sure they didn't get a foot hold in lebanon which would complicate Israel's attempts to solidify it's power in the region. The aim of the whole thing was to take Southern Lebanon (for above reasons) and support a Maronite, pro-Israel or at the very least a we-won't-try-and-drive-you-into-the-sea government. My own opinion is that Israel's attempt to consolidate it's power in the region was more the driving force then rooting out the PLO, although the two aren't seperate.

Back to specifics, again I reiterate, Israel had been supplying the Maronite militias for 6 years prior to the massacres and in the course of 2 invasions had been directly supporting them for 4 years. And it was essentially under Israeli military control that Gemayel was elected into the presidency. It wasn't just Gemayel's assassination that resulated in the massacres, Israel had already broken the withdrawl agreements, and had pushed up all the way to Beirut in response to the assassination of an Israeli diplomat for the express purpose of rooting out PLO fighters that it claimed were hiding in refugee camps around the area, Israel was already planning on going into those camps they just used Phallanges militas to do it.

I'm not trying to defend the Arab countries governments, you'd have to be pretty ballsey to do that. But to say that Israel's actions are merely out of self defense is bullshit, in the civil war or otherwise; it's this idea that Israel's "retaliations" are justified that I'm arguing against.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Even so I find a bit odd considering that as far as I can tell Israel is not very economically self suficient and leans heavily on US economic/military aid.

Israel has increased ties with other growing powers for years now (I believe they had been the #2 arms seller to China throughout the 90's). Their relationship with China could serve them in the future.

Israel just recently made a potentially huge trade agreement with India. They are building solid relationships with two of the fastest growing powers in the world.

So, Israel will get the aid. They'll get weapons. Palestinians will still suffer at the hands of the Israeli government (which I think isn't entirely the case, but anyway). So once again, do you want us to have some say (as well as a strategic friend) there, or would you rather India and/or China take our place?

[hamster of smite]

If making sure US interests in the region were insured was a matter of importance to me I would agree with you Kevin, but in my humble opinion it's been US forgein policy that has made a bigger mess of the region then the mess it was already left in by British, French and other colonial powers, and whether the controlling interest in the region is US or Chinese/Indian I doubt very much that it's going to change things for the Palestinians or any of the other Arab peoples.

Call me an idealist, I probably am, but I feel that better things are possible in the Middle East but not if we keep going the way we have been going.

Making sure the only "Democracy" in the middle east is free to defend democracy and freedom, even if it means dispensing some good old fashioned hard knuckle justice and cracking a couple heads, isn't going to make people in the US any safer, if anything it's going to be the reverse, and our lifes aren't going to be improved by propagating US economic interests in the region either.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

If making sure US interests in the region were insured was a matter of importance to me I would agree with you Kevin,

It's not simply about our own national interests. Certainly, it's better for the U.S. to deal with a democratic Middle East rather than a tyrannical and theological one. I think we've learned that lesson through years of dealing with lesser evils in that region, all for the sake of stability and business.

Beyond our own interests, preserving the last bastion of Jewish sovereignty and survival is also important. I also think Israel can serve as a model for other Middle Eastern nations on how to establish free markets (certainly more statist than our own, but still capitalism) that depends upon the skills and knowledge of her people, rather than the oil burried beneath you. Oil plays a big part in why Saudi Arabia is the way it is, and Israel is the way it is.

Of course Israel has received global support from other nations, and when it wasn't us it was Europe and by de facto the Soviet Union (some believe). And why the hell not? This is a nation comprised of people who have never truly been wanted anywhere else. I'm certain generation after generation of Europeans probably scoffed at the notion of anti-semitism being strong and prevalent. The pogroms were always in the past, and anti-semitism is never really what it once was. I think the Iranian prez has helped us realize that that's not the case, but we still must remain mindful of the position Israel is in.


but in my humble opinion it's been US forgein policy that has made a bigger mess of the region then the mess it was already left in by British, French and other colonial powers, and whether the controlling interest in the region is US or Chinese/Indian I doubt very much that it's going to change things for the Palestinians or any of the other Arab peoples.

You know what could change things for the Palestinians? If the Arab nations that speak so much of their plight actually did more about it, rather than funding Hamas and providing compensation to the families of suicide bombers.

Speaking of suicide bombers, it would help if the Palestinians stopped doing that. It would help if they would look to peaceful, non-violenr protest, rather than turning to radical Islam for their solutions. It would also help if their text books acknowledged Israel, and if they stoppd indoctrinating their children with violencand hatred towards Jews.

It would also, in my humble opinion, help if Arabs stopped blaming America for all of their problems, and started blaming the monarchies and dictatorships that think nothing of them. However that may be an unrealistic expectation, since we have so many apologists here in America who say the same crap.


Call me an idealist, I probably am, but I feel that better things are possible in the Middle East but not if we keep going the way we have been going.

Could you elaborate? I think the State department would be interested....

Making sure the only "Democracy" in the middle east is free to defend democracy and freedom, even if it means dispensing some good old fashioned hard knuckle justice and cracking a couple heads, isn't going to make people in the US any safer, if anything it's going to be the reverse, and our lifes aren't going to be improved by propagating US economic interests in the region either.

Ah, right....."democracy". Tell me, what makes Israel unfit in your eyes to be a true democracy? Could it be the fact that they actually have democratic elections decided by the people, rather than a collection of Islamo-fascists, like in Iran? Could it be that under that democracy, Arabs can vote, get elected to Knesset, and enjoy the HIGHEST standard of living out of any other country in the Middle East?? Which is it?

When Palestinians stop teaching their children that martyrdom is ideal, and that militarism and violence towards Israel is appropriate, maybe then violence will subside. I mean, seriously, what do you expect Israel to do? I thnk they often do things in an excessive fashion, and paranoia and fear can lead anybody to be rash. The desire to survive can bring that out of anybody. But if Israelis can't walk around without fearing that their bus might be blown up, or that they might get ripped apart by shrapnel while sitting in a cafe, than they must do what they can to protect themselves. It's the only way to counter a culture of death and suicide.

[Abcdxxxx]

About Israel's aid:


Israel agreed to phase out a large portion of it's aid. A great deal of it is styled like debt relief, and in a lot of ways, it is, since it goes to support and protect millions of exiles, as well as provide socialist programs to bedouins, and refugees of all stripe.

Another thing - 74% of the funds for military have to be spent within the United States. Israel's survival has always been very much intertwined with underground arms deals in exchange for oil, etc. and Israel continues to sell innovative war technology (including sci-fi sounding toys like heat seeking bullets that can round corners, band-aids which can act as temporary sutures, and tanks with anti-missile forcefields, all of which exist and are ready to use in battle right now). The way it is right now, when Israel sells their top of the line tank, the US State Dept. gets a say. Buffet just bought 80% of the shares in an Israeli company that provides steel work for the majority of the aviation industry, and most foriegn militaries. This site documents some other strategic benefits the US gets for it's money: http://www.geocities.com/d_elazar/USA/IsraelAidUSA.htm

Now say the US cuts out Israel's funding. In addition to the contingency plan involving China and India, support would come from Australia, several South American countries, Turkey, and on the downlow Pakinstan, and Iran. That leaves the US picking for scraps with Russia.

On Sabra & Shatilla:

srael was a third party. If Israel has persecuted anyone, Sabra Shatilla is the worst example.

The crimes were perpetrated by Lebanese Christian militia in retaliation for the massacre of Christians in Beir Mellat in N. Lebanon, Deir Ayach in N. Lebanon, Kab Elias in the Bekka, etc. as well as the assasination of the Lebanese PM. http://www.aceviper.net/members/cobra/intro.html

Lebanon had been cleansed of 1 million Christians. Could it be, that Israel, a country of refuseniks, and refugees sided with the Maronites for humanitarian reasons? Arabs perpretrated these crimes, and Arabs created the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatilla in the first place. Now let me ask you, why is there such a disporportionate mention of the S&S massacre compared to that of another 1982 incident, the massacre of 20,000 by Syrian president Hafez Al-Assad, in Hama? Sabra and Shatilla is the only one you can indirectly blame on a Jew, and that's the only reason you've been exposed to this story, and not stories like the massacre and destruction of the Christian village of Damour on January 9, 1976 at the hands of the Popular Liberation Front for the Liberation of Palestine. This event happened BEFORE Israel's incursion, and before the checkpoints. It's well documented. http://www.cedarland.org/warpixs2_1.html The PLO had 18,000 militia in Lebanon plus another 6,000 mercenaries on loan from Saddam, and Qaddafhi. The accounts of the PLO in Lebanon are so gory, that even the horrors of Sabra Shatilla don't compare. Nobody cares that Muslims attacked Shatila and Burj-El 3 years later. It's just not fun unless you can blame Israel.

In addition to the Embassy murder you mentioned, there were daily shellings down into the Kibbutzes. I was visiting family at the time, and I can tell you the air raid sirens were so frequent we had to sleep inside the bomb shelters. What you're calling "attempts to solidify power" are defense measures. If Israel wanted "power" they would have taken Damascus, and Cairo when they had the chance. They attempted to stabilize Southern Lebanon, not "take it".

Finally, Jews are not collonialists in Israel, they're natives of the land.