Pentagon Releases Video of Plane Hitting Building on 9/11

[ranxer]

bwhaha... this latest will define the media outlets.. even fox (tv) doesn't know how to spin this yet the article(below) talks like it's more conclusive. watch the headlines change as analysis moves forward. strange that i havn't seen this story on any other outlet yet. fox news seems to have gotten the exclusive.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195702,00.html
WASHINGTON — Conspiracy theorists may or may not be disappointed Tuesday when they see footage released from the Pentagon showing two angles of American Flight 77 hitting the western wall of the building on Sept. 11, 2001.

The Department of Justice is releasing the videotape after a Freedom of Information Act request by Judicial Watch, a government watchdog. The request was made to quiet claims by some that pictures from that day never showed an airplane, only the "alleged" impact of the plane. Those claims spawned theories that the U.S. government faked the crash at the Pentagon.

"We fought hard to obtain this video because we felt that it was very important to complete the public record with respect to the terrorist attacks of September 11," said Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton. "Finally, we hope that this video will put to rest the conspiracy theories involving American Airlines Flight 77. As always, our prayers remain with all those who suffered as a result of those murderous attacks."

One of the tapes is from a security camera that was used to produce five still shots on that day. That video, which takes pictures in half-second increments, shows the nose cone of the plane clearly entering the picture, then a blur and then a fireball.

conclusive? not.

[Ant10708]

We all know its just been tampered by the neo cons.

[ranxer]

now why would they do that?
why would they hold the video back if it was freakin inconclusive in the first place?!! damn it all, they said that they were going to release the footage that they abducted from the gas station nearby why didn't they release that too?

i think this stuff helps neither side at this moment. oh well.
course i havn't seen the actual footage yet anyway, just heard some opinions on it.

[El Blanco]

now why would they do that?
why would they hold the video back if it was freakin inconclusive in the first place?!! damn it all, they said that they were going to release the footage that they abducted from the gas station nearby why didn't they release that too?

Its a federal investigation. Its not uncommon for evidence to be held back from the media.

i think this stuff helps neither side at this moment.

Pictures of the plane approaching the Pentagon?

oh well.
course i havn't seen the actual footage yet anyway, just heard some opinions on it.

doesn't stop you from dismissing it.

[ranxer]

well blanco, i put my prejudices and problematic understandings up front.

blanco: Pictures of the plane approaching the Pentagon?

what plane?
what approach?

i don't see anything but a blur then a flash then flames then smoke.
why the hell would they hold that back??!

[El Blanco]

well blanco, i put my prejudices and problematic understandings up front.

Problem is, you make no attempt to work around them.

blanco: Pictures of the plane approaching the Pentagon?

what plane?
what approach?

Yes, it is very blurry, but you see what can be described as the nose of a palne coming into the picture and the next frame has the explosion.

This is less plausable than a shirtless man in a gimp mask peering out a hole in one of the Towers?

i don't see anything but a blur then a flash then flames then smoke.

Because you don't want to.

why the hell would they hold that back??!

Federal investigation.

[Rez]

the one frame that somewhat shows what hit it doesn't look like a goddamn plane at all.

the problem is is that i consider any alternate theories as outlandish as they propose completely preposterous.

[ranxer]

so i've been trying to findthe video released and can't,
anyone got a link? news reported it was off some pentagon site but i can't find it. tv isnt covering it.. dang and i want to give the benefit of the doubt.

[Kulturkampf]

If it takes a single picture every .5 seconds and we are talking about an airplane traeling hundreds of miles per hour... What do you expect?

Honestly, I do not see where you are going with this.

I think if you are implying that the government launched a missile into the Pentagon, I do not even know what to say.

But instead of accepting the fact that you have a burden of proof on your side, you will say blurry photographs and video sequences equal justification.

What? You expect a camera with an extremely slow shutter speed to capture an airplane crashing into the Pentagon with precision?

[Immortal Goat]

Actually, I believe the burden of proof lies with the Government in this instance. We as citizens do not have access to all of the information about what happened that day. As such, we can only speculate, but never prove. It's the government's job to put all speculation to rest, and thus far, they have not released any definitive proof that they aren't lying to us.

The missile idea is just as plausible as the plane idea, simply because there is enough evidence to suggest that it was, in fact, not a plane, but nothing other than a missile could have caused that much damage. It's the government's job to show us something that inarguably shows us that it was a plane, or the conspiricy theories will continue.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

If it wasn't Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon, than where did that plane go? Here (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA77.victims.html) is a list of the crew and passengers who died on that day.

Were they shot down by thie own government? If so, where'd that happen? Why didn't anybody see them go down? I'll bet their families might be interested in hearing this, ranxer and Geggy, you should get on it.

[El Blanco]

The missile idea is just as plausible as the plane idea, simply because there is enough evidence to suggest that it was, in fact, not a plane, but nothing other than a missile could have caused that much damage.

So, you are saying a missile hit the pentagon?

What kind of missile? Where did it come from? What was its payload? How does the missile impact differ from a passanger liner? Where is the shrapnel?

It's the government's job to show us something that inarguably shows us that it was a plane, or the conspiricy theories will continue.

What did they do, ship in the wreckage? Grow it there on the lawn?

[Ant10708]

"The theorists do not believe eyewitnesses, physical evidence, engineering studies or even the claims of Osama Bin Laden, so it is unlikely that they will be convinced by grainy video frames. "

-BBC news

Immortal Goat you are wrong. There is more evidence it was a plane. Including eyewitness accounts and the fact that a plane and an entire list of passengers and crew members are unaccounted for. The only evidence I've ever seen that it was a missle was in a flash video.

[ranxer]

most eyewitnesses claim they saw a plane, some say it was american airlines 737, some say they saw a missle, some report a second plane, some report smelling cordite after the impact. i haven't made any conclusions about what hit the pentagon, i assume it was flight 77 but have read many oddities that make me question the official story.

1. why were the video tapes siezed and not released? what are they hiding? especially if it was poor quality.
2. why was the hole in the pentagon so small and go through so many rings?
3. what was under the blue tarp that was carried off by people at the crash site?
4. how did a plane that size make maneuvering turns and dive(reported by flight controllers) in a way that pilots say only a fighter jet could do?
5. where are the photos of what people say was pieces of the cockpit? why was there a fan jet engine part laying in the wreckage that could not be from a 737 but a much smaller plane?

the governments explanation is not good enough, we have been shown over and over that taking the word of this administration is a mistake, so we are left with questions and more questions.

i usually leave the pentagon strike alone but the release of the video images yesterday brought the subject up, i was hoping that the video would clear up some questions, so i'm really disappointed that they did not. WHY did they not release the footage from the gas station like fox was reporting they would??

and kevin, just because we dont have ironclad evidence of what really happened doesn't mean we can't say what we think didn't happen. showing the governments case is false does not require an alternate theory. um, but, some people reported flight 77 was lost from radar somewhere over cleveland i think, some say it landed and the passengers were taken off but these are hard to verify, i generally avoid these but the statements are out there.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

and kevin, just because we dont have ironclad evidence of what really happened doesn't mean we can't say what we think didn't happen. showing the governments case is false does not require an alternate theory.

Okay, fair enough, but generally when questions like this arise, they then lead you to some logical conclusions, right? Otherwise, you're just a neurotic government hater, no?

If The U.S. government did X, then that could/would lead you to believe that they did it becasue of Y, right? Come on, don't tell me you don't have your own opinions as to why we shot a missile at the Pentagon, as well as shot and maybe killed a flight load of our own citizens.

Thoughts?


um, but, some people reported flight 77 was lost from radar somewhere over cleveland i think, some say it landed and the passengers were taken off but these are hard to verify, i generally avoid these but the statements are out there.

Ok. So what do you think happened to those people?

[ranxer]

i don't know! i'd love to have more proof of one side or the other.

I'd much rather stick with the facts we have or as close to those as possible than to go into alternative theories. i usually stick with the biggest hole in the 9/11 commission report that is the omition and oddity of building seven.

i really don't understand how if people don't have some completly provable explanation other than the bush claims they somehow don't have credible reasons to doubt the bush administration claims. there's got to be a name for that form of discrediting.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You're hysterical. You know damn well that what you're implying is a full-blown, government orchestrated conspiracy, and you just won't admit to it.

You don't have to prove anything to me. I think your evidence of conspiracy is sketchy at best. You must have an opinion, based off of this evidence you see in front of you, no?

[ScruU2wice]

didn't they have this video out before like a month or so after the attacks. Because I'm pretty sure I saw it on the news before...

[ranxer]

there were videos released around the pentagon, but not the ones from the toll booth, the hotel nearby and the gas station across from the pentagon, those were removed within 15 minutes or so of the attack.

the ones released yesterday were from the tollbooth
duh, it took me long enough to find them..
http://www.judicialwatch.org/flight77.shtml

kevin, i think you want me to put up my ideas so you can point out how implausible it might be, but i have none, especially about the pentagon attack. I am simply pointing out the inconsistencies of the bush admins conspiracy theory, have you looked into who they said did the incredible maneuvers with flight 77? hani hanjour was a terrible pilot barely able to fly a cesna and i've heard from many pilots that said an expert would have a lot of trouble flying the course close to flight 77.

[Geggy]

ARGH!

I never really pay attention to what had hit the pentagon because there are too many conflicting reports and witnesses statements, anything I say will be inconclusive because I have nothing backed up to support my questions and hypothesises. I heard the fbi is holding back a total of 86 videos of the pentagon strike and thus far they've only released two grainy, shot by shot videos that doesn't clearly show an AA77 or a missile like most conspiracy theorists had concluded. All videos were held as evidence for trials, so they had rights not to release the videos to the public. Now the moussaoui trial had come to an end, what reasons do they have to hold onto these tapes?

I'm a little annoyed by the media coverage over this matter. They need to focus on other more obvious anomalies that remains unanswered ie. wtc7, the security stand downs, hijackers' prior whereabouts, etc. I think the real question that needs to be asked relating to the pentagon strike is why no fighter jets had been deployed to protect the skies of DC, especially 35 minutes after the second wtc hit in nyc when it was clear to anyone that america was under attack.

[Preechr]

Actually, I believe the burden of proof lies with the Government in this instance. We as citizens do not have access to all of the information about what happened that day. As such, we can only speculate, but never prove. It's the government's job to put all speculation to rest, and thus far, they have not released any definitive proof that they aren't lying to us.

The missile idea is just as plausible as the plane idea, simply because there is enough evidence to suggest that it was, in fact, not a plane, but nothing other than a missile could have caused that much damage. It's the government's job to show us something that inarguably shows us that it was a plane, or the conspiricy theories will continue.

Not to pick on you in particular Goat, but you just happened to synapsize the this only issue here that actually needs to be addressed.

Any time anything happens, the government jumps on it and supresses any information about it as a matter of course. FOIA is a very new thing, and the reason it exists is because governments (not just ours) have always classified whatever they can whenever they could that might cause any sort of unease among the general population. Most people are just plain dumb. That is just a fact. Dumb people are reactive and prone to do dumb things. If shielded from the facts of something bad, they will forget about the bad things and go on with their lives after a short time. Think cattle.

It's not the government's job to tell us everything about whatever happens. It's the government's job to run the government for us. ALL OF US. Remember, most of "us" are fucking retards. Do you go into McDonald's and demand to see their business plan and a prospectus before you order? Do you jump behind the counter at Kinko's and change the toner for them?

What percentage of people do you think have ever been inspired into actual political action upon receiving information that disturbed them? What exactly would you do with "full disclosure" were you to receive it? What do you think most of "us" would do were the government to transfer onto the public your burden of proof? Government plays the odds, and unfortunately, there's more harm than good to come from telling the truth these days.

[mburbank]

Just for the record, I'm not a conspiracist because they require too many competantists.

Preech;

"It's not the government's job to tell us everything about whatever happens. It's the government's job to run the government for us. ALL OF US. "

Okay. I'll buy it's not their job to tell us everything that happens. It's also not their job to keep every detail of every single thing they can bludgeon with a state secrets stamp off the table. They are RECLASIFYING documenst that hve been in the public domain long enough for some of the information to be in text books! They are WAY the fuck over the line into crazy ass territory about keeping screts, a country million miles from the 'It's not our job' excuse. Imagine if they took, say 1/2 half of the work they expend keeping secrets and put it into things involved with, oh, I don't know, running Fema or Homeland security or developing a foreign policy or anythig even remotely resembling runnig govrnment for us.

Wait. Thinking about this bunch of fucks it's just as well they spend all that time keeping secrets,

[Geggy]

Any time anything happens, the government jumps on it and supresses any information about it as a matter of course. FOIA is a very new thing, and the reason it exists is because governments (not just ours) have always classified whatever they can whenever they could that might cause any sort of unease among the general population. Most people are just plain dumb. That is just a fact. Dumb people are reactive and prone to do dumb things. If shielded from the facts of something bad, they will forget about the bad things and go on with their lives after a short time. Think cattle.

Not dumb, it's definitely the amnesia.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

kevin, i think you want me to put up my ideas so you can point out how implausible it might be, but i have none, especially about the pentagon attack.

Sure, and I'm glad you realize that. It tells me that you have enough good sense to not share some of your ideas on this matter.


I am simply pointing out the inconsistencies of the bush admins conspiracy theory, have you looked into who they said did the incredible maneuvers with flight 77? hani hanjour was a terrible pilot barely able to fly a cesna and i've heard from many pilots that said an expert would have a lot of trouble flying the course close to flight 77.

So i'll ask again-- If no plane hit the Pentagon, where's the plane? Flight 77 was very real, so where are the people? Surely you've connected the dots on this, no?

And what "bush admins conspiracy theory" are you referring to? I think it's pretty widely accepted that a plane hit the Pentagon. The conspiracy theorizing is on YOUR end, my friend.

[ranxer]

the conspiracy theory is that hani hanjour, a very poor pilot, flew a 757 on a course that many veteran pilots have said is virtually impossible (for a veteran pilot) into the pentagon leaving a hole that a boeing 757 would not fit into. What did hit the pentagon? I don't freaking know! i don't spend much time on the theories that have been presented by various groups, i spend time trying to figure out how the official version is true or not and i'm not satisfied at all.

again, i don't know what really happened i just havn't seen any proof that what the bush admin and the commission says happened did.

I trust my own research and Michel Chossudovsky, Ellen Mariani, Nick Levis, Thomas Kimmel, John McMurtry, Col. Robert Bowman, John Valleau, Michael Dietrick, Jamie Hecht, Ralph Schoenman, Kyle Hence, Jim Hoffman, Paul Thompson, Barrie Zwicker, Joyce Lynn, Bruce Gagnon, Barrie Zwicker, Jim Marrs and almost all the scholars at www.scholarsfor911truth.org MUCH MORE than the 9-11 commission or the Bush administration.

[Geggy]

i don't spend much time on the theories that have been presented by various groups, i spend time trying to figure out how the official version is true or not and i'm not satisfied at all.

again, i don't know what really happened i just havn't seen any proof that what the bush admin and the commission says happened did.

Yeah here is a quick example (sorry if I'm going off the topic from "what hit the pentagon" issue, which I absolutely loathe):

June 2001 The decade-old procedure for a quick response by the nation's air defense was changed. NORAD's military commanders could no longer issue the command to launch fighter jets because approval had to be sought from the civilian Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing7/for_the_record_ashley.pdf

Numerous reports confirming that the first fighter jet that had scrambled was after the pentagon hit:
The day before this announcement, acting Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Richard Myers in congressional testimony stated that the first fighters got airborne only after the Pentagon was hit at 9:37 a.m. [US Congress, 10/13/2001]

NORAD spokesman Marine Corps Major Mike Snyder also claimed no fighters launched anywhere until after the Pentagon was hit.

New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani later testifies before the 9/11
Commission that he found out from the White House at about 9:58 a.m. that the first fighters were not launched toward New York City until twelve minutes earlier—9:46 a.m. [9/11 Commission, 6/19/2004]

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a091401noradaccount

NORAD's official time sheet for United flight 175 (sept 18, 2001):
DIRECTORATE OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS, NORTH AMERICAN AEROSPACE DEFENSE COMMAND,

250 S Peterson Blvd, Suite 116, PETERSON AFB, CO 80914-3190

(719) 554-6889 Website: http://www.norad.mil/

NORAD’s Response Times

United Airlines Flight 175 – Boston enroute to Los Angeles

[b]FAA Notification to NEADS 0843

Fighter Scramble Order (Otis ANGB, Falmouth, Mass. Same 2 F-15s as Flight 11) 0846

Fighters Airborne 0852

Airline Impact Time (World Trade Center 2) 0902 (estimated)

Fighter Time/Distance from Airline Impact Location approx 8 min****/71
miles

From the 9/11 commission report:
Military Notification and Response. The first indication that the NORAD air defenders had of the second hijacked aircraft, United 175, came in a phone call from New York Center to NEADS at 9:03.The notice came at about the time the plane was hitting the South Tower.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch1.htm

So who's telling the truth, Kevin?

Maybe it's about time you take this issue more seriously, Kevin...

Here's a good place to start, Kevin...

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

[KevinTheOmnivore]

How could I possibly take this any more seriously with you two jokers involved???

I think (much like you two), the "experts" you've cited have an agenda in positing these conspiracy theories. You skirt that agenda by pretending that you're just interested in the truth. But the truth to you is anything that encourages what you already believe. You don't believe the 9/11 commission, yet you'l buy anything said on conspiracy theory websites.

So there's a discrepancy over what times the planes precisely hit the towers and/or the pentagon, or the time that fighter jets took off?

I need help with this, Geggy. All of these times and numbers, can you please translate it all for me? Tell me what this leads you to believe. What really happened on 9/11 you guys, for reals.

[CaptainBubba]

Kevin I know you think you're being clever but calm down. They're just being skeptical and so far havent made any claims beyond their reasonable doubts. What you are doing is basically the same as a fundamentalist christian badgering an evolutionist for THE MISSING LINK WHERE IT IT, HUH FUCKER IF ITS TRUE THEN ITS THERE FIND IT WHERE IS IT?

except in this case evolution is proven whereas what they're suggesting would be the beggining of some theory. You have to start somewhere with everything. If I see a guy holding a gun at someone and hes not wearing a cop uniform I dont look for proof that he is in fact not a cop and check his pockets for ID. People are allowed to have doubts, and make reasonable assumptions without having every possible bit of information available, sicne that is quite impossible.

Stop being mad that they arent presenting an onviously unreasonable suggestion that you actually can shoot down rather than skepticism.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Bubba, we can't continue this way. I love you, too.


Kevin I know you think you're being clever but calm down. They're just being skeptical and so far havent made any claims beyond their reasonable doubts.

Bubba, I know you think you're thinking, but calm down. This thing you're doing is actually fan-boy masturbation all over your keyboard.

It's only recently that Ranxer and Geggy have muted their rhetoric a bit. I wouldn't be pressing them on the matter if I didn't already know some of the batshit crazy stuff they think about 9/11.



What you are doing is basically the same as a fundamentalist christian badgering an evolutionist for THE MISSING LINK WHERE IT IT, HUH FUCKER IF ITS TRUE THEN ITS THERE FIND IT WHERE IS IT?

except in this case evolution is proven whereas what they're suggesting would be the beggining of some theory. You have to start somewhere with everything. If I see a guy holding a gun at someone and hes not wearing a cop uniform I dont look for proof that he is in fact not a cop and check his pockets for ID. People are allowed to have doubts, and make reasonable assumptions without having every possible bit of information available, sicne that is quite impossible.

Uhhhhh......ok. Except that they've dug up a minority of so-called experts to refute a commonly accepted event. Again, they aren't doing it out of a genuine concern for the truth. The truth is a subjective and decided matter for them. The U.S. government lied to the American people, and they're covering it up for some reason.

Stop being mad that they arent presenting an onviously unreasonable suggestion that you actually can shoot down rather than skepticism.

Sure thing, sport. And hey, since we're asking favors, the next time you get a hard on over one of my posts, try contributing something of substance, ok? Thanks slugger.

[CaptainBubba]

Don't fret lover. Soon you will make an honest woman out of me when the manager at Yakadoo's restaraunt and bar gives you the ok to take 2 nights off for our honeymoon.

It really doesnt seem like they have any theories on this, but if they do then by all means badger them. From an objective perpective it just looks like them bein like "Hey, anyone notice the plane that hit the pentagon was shaped like a giant paperclip?" and you going "why? why would it be a paperclip. It may look like one but why? I don't believe you until you say why?". I'd like it better if we didn't believe them because their sources are questionable rather than because they can't explain what they believe they see before them.

I myself beleieve that the government was storing secret files on the creation of the AIDS virus in the WTCs and the Pentagon and was forced to destroy all knowledge of this when the original creators threatened to go public. Also I believe that Dick Cheney is a crab-person. I have at lerast 7 websites with scary flash videos that support my claims, so it must be credible.

[Kulturkampf]

Does anyone have a direct citation from a credible source that people saw a 'missile' strike the Pentagon?

Does anyone have a direct citation from a credible source that the jet engine piece (presumably attachd to the missile, I guess...) was too small to be a 737?

This is all generally absurd, but let's hear more about this.

[Geggy]

How could I possibly take this any more seriously with you two jokers involved???

I think (much like you two), the "experts" you've cited have an agenda in positing these conspiracy theories.

What would you consider conspiracy theories in the previous post I've made? It doesn't take an expert to figure out that there's something wrong with the official version that's put out by the bush administration.

You skirt that agenda by pretending that you're just interested in the truth. But the truth to you is anything that encourages what you already believe. You don't believe the 9/11 commission, yet you'l buy anything said on conspiracy theory websites.

You're wrong. Www.cooperativeresearch.org isn't a conspiracy theory website. It's a website consistent of information from various mainstream sources, including the kean commission, that are put together in order to form a timeline. It's easy for you to avoid to look into it and quickly dismiss it as a conspiracy theory website because you're just too scared and gutless to face the facts.

So there's a discrepancy over what times the planes precisely hit the towers and/or the pentagon, or the time that fighter jets took off?

I need help with this, Geggy. All of these times and numbers, can you please translate it all for me? Tell me what this leads you to believe. What really happened on 9/11 you guys, for reals.

It's basically easy to understand my previous post, again you're just in denial.

Rumsfeld changed the policy that in case there is an emergency in the skies, he would be the only one to contact for approval to order the scrambling of fighter jets. Because there are conflicting reports of rumsfeld's whereabouts during the time of the attacks, he may have deliberately kept himself out of reach during the attacks until it was over. There are mountains of statements and sources showing that fighter jets weren't deployed anywhere in the US until after 9:37 when the pentagon had been hit.

But then few days later, NORAD pulled an official time sheet out of their asses and it confirmed that fighter jets were deployed at 8:46, three minutes after they were informed of the united 175 hijacking. But it wouldn't make sense to scramble fighter jets at the time when American airline 11 struck the first tower and there were two other fighter jets already previously deployed to look after AA11 fifteen minutes beforehand. Clearly those two jets that were airborne halfway to NYC looking after AA11 should have already been aware of the united 175 hijacking before it reached it's destination. F15s are able to reach a maximum speed of somewhere over 1300 mph.

Then, lo and behold, times were manipulated in the kean commission saying that NEADS weren't contacted of the united 175 hijacking until 9:03, at the same time it has hit the second tower and it was too late.

Clearly, this does NOT add up.

[ItalianStereotype]

geggy, hon, it's just kinda hard to take you seriously after some of the posts you've made in the past. banned photos? real levees?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

It's easy for you to avoid to look into it and quickly dismiss it as a conspiracy theory website because you're just too scared and gutless to face the facts.

No Geggy, you silly little goose, it's not the fact that I refuse to read one website that makes me "scared" to face your propaganda. It's like you're asking me to prove that the sky is blue, sure I could do it, but why do I have to?

The fact that the ASCE, as well as I dunno, everyone else in the world with a brain confirmed that a plane hit the Pentagon is enough for me. An article (http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/pentagon.terrorism/) publised the day after the wreckage confirmed that Fairfax County firemen recovered pieces of the fuselage. Discovery of both black boxes (http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/14%5FAPboxes.html) also weights against you. And again, what about the very real people who died there that day? All but one (http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/stripe/6%5F48/national%5Fnews/12279%2D1.html) of the people on that flight were identified by over 50 forensic experts and scientists from Walter Reed. Photos such as this one (http://www.news.navy.mil/view%5Fsingle.asp%3Fid=2445) confirm that there was plane wreckage at the site.

Now, for all of this to be false, it would require that SOMEBODY planted fake debrit, it would've required that not only the government, but almost every major media outlet, was complicit in this cover up.

So, please don't tell me that you and Ranxer don't have any ideas on what happened that day. You're willingness to jump on every bullshit conspiracy exposes you for what you are (along with previous posts about PNAC and other crazy global domination garbage). You're not interested in the truth, you're only interested in trashing the U.$. and more specifically the Bush regime. Give it a fucking rest.

And btw, before you call me "gutless" again, why don't you look up a family member of a passenger on 757, and share your ideas with them. I'm guessing they'd appreciate it.

It really doesnt seem like they have any theories on this, but if they do then by all means badger them.

Look closely at Geggy's avatar.

[Geggy]

I've alway said I believed a plane hit the pentagon. You can clearly see the tail of the plane in the videos. This is why I despise the "what hit the pentagon" argument because it's easier and more covenient to debunk and ridcule the conspiracy theorists who thinks it was something other than a plane that hit the pentagon.

"Hey how do you explain the secuirty stand down on 9/11? Was it a failure or was it deliberate?"

"Huuh uuuh uuuh...a plane hit the pentagon" (walks away)

Just because a plane hit the pentagon, it doesn't mean that crazy jihadists could have done it. In fact...prove it to me that they did.

Sorry italian, you're just too right wing to engage in this type of arguement. Why don't you go and soak yoursef into a pool of bacardi rum like a normal republican would?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Right, he's too "right wing" to engage in a conversation about 9/11 being planned by the U.S. government in order to justify global domination.

:rolleyes

[Geggy]

jeez, I cant believe I have to do your homework for you. but I dont mind it anyway...

Last 58 of the 258 points of the warnings the bush administration had received. You needn't read the entire page but check the behavoir of the bush administration in the aftermath of the attacks...

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=200&before_9/11=warnings

Wargame exercises and emercengy drills to terrorism between 1991 and 2001...

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=militaryExercises

The timeline of lead hijacker, M. Atta's whereabout prior to 9/11. He was implicated in the israel bombing yet he was able to get in and out of US without being touched by the FBI who had warrants to arrest him...

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&the_alleged_9/11_hijackers=mohamedAtta

The obstruction of investigation by the bush administration and the timeline of the 9/11 commission...

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&investigations:_a_detailed_look=911Commission

If you get mad... just take a break, back off and come back to it later. You will go through a period of denial, where you want it all not to be true. That is normal. I can't really get mad at you because I've been there. I've been on both sides of the fence at one point or another. Actually there might be several times you go through denial. Take a break, let it soak in... come back and do some more investigation. Its really a no brainer when it comes to the evidence.

Anyhoo I'm out and done with this. I'm officially retired...

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I'm not mad, i'm laughing.

You bring light to my day. I might give you a sticky.

[Geggy]

wow that was a quick response.

I guess you didn't click on the links unless you took up speed reading courses...

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I guess you didn't click on the links

Bingo.

[Geggy]

I rest my case.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You said that two fits ago.

And how does citing one website over and over and over again prove that there's this over abundance of proof on your side???

I mean, I shouldn't even have to ask that, but I guess I just did.

[Abcdxxxx]

The timeline of lead hijacker, M. Atta's whereabout prior to 9/11. He was implicated in the israel bombing yet he was able to get in and out of US without being touched by the FBI who had warrants to arrest him...

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&the_alleged_9/11_hijackers=mohamedAtta


You're talking about two different people.

Muhammed Atta = 9/11, Egyptian national, age 33
Mahmoud Abed Atta = Bus bombing, Palestinian, age 47.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blatta.htm
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DEEDC103DF930A35751C0A96F9482 60
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=21&x_article=363

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Poor Geggy. :(

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Just because a plane hit the pentagon, it doesn't mean that crazy jihadists could have done it. In fact...prove it to me that they did.

You mean aside from the fact that Khalid al-Mihdhar, Majed Moqed, Nawaf al-Hazmi, and Salem al-Hazmi were all on the plane, all of whom had ties to Al Qaeda?

What about the surveillance video showing four of those five men ging through check points at Dulles?

So were they not really on the plane, or were they secretly agents of the Rummy???

[ranxer]

Does anyone have a direct citation from a credible source that people saw a 'missile' strike the Pentagon?

Does anyone have a direct citation from a credible source that the jet engine piece (presumably attachd to the missile, I guess...) was too small to be a 737?

The only references i have say several witnesses reported.. they have names and dates but what's the point? its someones word and can't be considered too credible by itself, my point in bringing it up sometimes is that witnesses of the pentagon attack don't agree on what they saw. this is not a big deal and not a strong refutation of the government story, so generally i'm ignoring it in the future.

regarding the engine part, i am having difficulty wading through the conflicting information. I've never been convinced that it wasn't an engine part from flight 77 so I will be printing out what i think is the most solid info and questioning some of the 'experts' on the 'conspiracy' theory about it at a conference in Chicago next month.

Kevin keeps repeating that geggy and i believe every crack pot website that submits an alternative theory to the bush admins story, this is not the case. the list of sites i trust is very short, the list of sites i don't trust is actually growing..
i'd venture to guess that some of them will drop out after domains expire but its a big mess, especially if you've only started looking into this stuff recently.

geggy refers to some of the best sites, cooperativeresearch.org is pretty solid from my perspective, not anything close to a crackpot website. another trustable resource is www.globalresearch.ca
I'm not adding websites to my list by searching on google without knowing who exactly is behind the website. Who owns the domain, who is writing the info and who are they is pretty critical.

rather than rehash all this stuff i think i'll just be posting 'new' evidence or a review from the chicago conference.. if yer nearby and want to check it out, surf over to www.revealingthetruth.org i'm honestly going to try to play spot the crackpot while i'm there cause i bet there will be at least one presenter among the credible researchers but i really hope he/she gets pointed out by others before me. there will be more in the attendee category of course.

[Abcdxxxx]

www.globalresearch.ca has posted such gems as:

"The Hilarious Auschwitz Story"
"The HolyCo$t Lie is Finished"
"Jewish lies of omission about the Holocaust"
"Jewish Hate responsible for largest mass killing at Dachau".

Credible?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I'm a fan of "Innocent Texas Citizen Targeted With Deadly Electronic Weapons".

[ranxer]

michel chossudovsky knows what he's talking about and printing on global research.. the haulocaust industry is a tough subject, easily and hugely attacked by the headlines, people generally don't look into the questions or details. Choss is mostly in agreement with others i respect on the subject like Norman Finkelstein author of the Haulocaust Industry.

being on the edge and going against the mainstream means you will make enemies so i'm not surprised by the response here.

regarding electronic weapons, i've personally been subject to a minor em weapon, the research has been shown on major outlets like the history channel, folks this is old stuff, if you doubt it, just wait, cause it will not go away no matter how far you stick your head in the sand.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

being on the edge and going against the mainstream means you will make enemies so i'm not surprised by the response here.

Yeah, your anti-semitism is so retro.

regarding electronic weapons, i've personally been subject to a minor em weapon, the research has been shown on major outlets like the history channel, folks this is old stuff, if you doubt it, just wait, cause it will not go away no matter how far you stick your head in the sand.

all these technical advances taken together have created world in which the average man's fate is no longer in his own hands or in the hands of his neighbors and friends, but in those of politicians, corporation executives and remote, anonymous technicians and bureaucrats whom he as an individual has no power to influence. 21 The same process will continue in the future.

[Ant10708]

global research is 100% credible!!!


Judicial Watch Caught Pulling A 180 On Pentagon Footage

The president of the organization that sued for the video footage, also made an appearance on Fox on the same day of the government-released video clips. He appeared for a few minutes on Mr. O'Reilly's show, on which the new footage was also aired. On that show, the JW president made the absurd statement "this definitely proves a plane was present." Even O'Reilly, well known as a staunch supporter of the administration was forced to state "I can't see a plane there."

Yet the very next day, I heard the same Judicial Watch president live on a radio show sing a completely different tune about what could be seen, and that "more footage is to be released soon." The reason for his flip-flop opinion will probably never be known, unless his bank account (or JW) had a mysterious large deposit of untraceable origin that day. Supposedly more footage is to be released, but has not as of this writing. One can imagine the bickering going on inside the pentagon over this matter. After all, this isn't like doing post-production work on a motion picture that can take months. All an un-named employee must do is to take 5 minutes and make a copy of good RAW video footage and release it. No credits, no music, no editing. Period.

Unfortunately, with professional video editing workstations used in motion pictures today, the next footage that shows a plane will be perfect and undetectable as a fake. And it will appear near election time or about the time Iran is to be invaded, when voters at the polls will remember it and think the "war on terror" is justified. Even though no jumbo-jet was ever there. The biggest problem the government has? There never was a plane.

[Ant10708]

An American counternarcotics official was killed and two other Americans wounded in a suicide bombing in western Afghanistan today, while heavy fighting between Taliban insurgents and Afghan police continued in two southern provinces, officials said," reports the New York Times. "We confirm that a U.S. citizen contractor for the State Department Bureau of International Narcotic and Law Enforcement, working for the police training program in Herat was killed in a vehicle-borne I.E.D. attack," Chris Harris, an American Embassy spokesman, told the newspaper. After this mention, the Times moves on to detail the increasing violence between Afghan puppet police and "militants," that is to say Afghans fighting against the occupation of their country, an entirely natural occurrence.


100 % credible.


the Times moves on to detail the increasing violence between Afghan puppet police and "militants," that is to say Afghans fighting against the occupation of their country, an entirely natural occurrence.
:)

[Geggy]

god dammit if there's one thing I hate, it's the countless number of arabs who share same names. I swear they're doing it on purpose!


You mean aside from the fact that Khalid al-Mihdhar, Majed Moqed, Nawaf al-Hazmi, and Salem al-Hazmi were all on the plane, all of whom had ties to Al Qaeda?

What about the surveillance video showing four of those five men ging through check points at Dulles?

So were they not really on the plane, or were they secretly agents of the Rummy???

Maybe they were really on the plane yet, they were set up as patsies?

How can you prove they were members of Al qaeda? Just because they were islam and have arab sounding names? Or was it because Rummy says so?

How did the fbi/cia ever name these hijackers responsible for crashing a plane into the pentagon in just three days after the attacks when the fbi/cia have claimed they failed to connect the dots with an assload of forewarnings they've received that could've help them prevent 9/11? It can't be simply by looking at arab sounding names on the passenger manifest.

Why did they change one of the hijackers' name from Mosear Caned (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/14/bn.01.html) to Hani Hanjour (http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/14/fbi.document/) in the same day without explaining who Caned was and why he appeared on the original list of hijackers? In fact, why was Hani Hanjour's name not on the AA77 passenger manifest? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/graphics/attack/hijackers.html)

[Abcdxxxx]

michel chossudovsky knows what he's talking about and printing on global research.. the haulocaust industry is a tough subject, easily and hugely attacked by the headlines,

Really? Because even Chossudovsky wouldn't stand behind"The Hilarious Auschwitz story" and pulled it, claiming he had no idea such Holocaust revitionism was appearing on his site.

[Geggy]

I know I said I'm officially retired but I can't help myself. I'm michael jordan of 9/11 heh.

[El Blanco]

No, Jordan's points actually stood.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You mean aside from the fact that Khalid al-Mihdhar, Majed Moqed, Nawaf al-Hazmi, and Salem al-Hazmi were all on the plane, all of whom had ties to Al Qaeda?

What about the surveillance video showing four of those five men ging through check points at Dulles?

So were they not really on the plane, or were they secretly agents of the Rummy???

Maybe they were really on the plane yet, they were set up as patsies?

maybe you can't substantiate that in any way?

How can you prove they were members of Al qaeda? Just because they were islam and have arab sounding names?

Khalid al-Mihdhar: Fought along side Bosnian muslims in 1995, in Afghanistan against the Northern Alliance, and with Chechnyan muslims in 1998. Was randomly selected for extra screening during boarding, records show he stayed at a hotel in Herndon, VA the night before.

Majed Moqed: Also proven to be on the flight, and an picture taken in Green Belt, MD (right near DC) places him there with Hani Hanjour on 9/2/01.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/88/HanjiMajedATM.jpg

Nawaf al-Hazmi: Also fought in Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Chechnya. Malaysian officials who recorded proceedings at the Al Qaeda summit that same year in January reported him talking at length on potential terrorist activities. Below is a picture of him being checked at Dulles on 9/11:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/Nawaf-Dulles-Searched.jpg

Salem al-Hazmi: Brother of nawaf, and btw, Travelocity shows that they both bought tix for Flight 77 in August online.

Hani Hanjour: "Hanjour obtained a commercial pilots license in 1999 and according to the chief instructor, "Despite Hanjour's poor reviews, he did have some ability as a pilot, "There's no doubt in my mind that once that [hijacked jet] got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it," he said."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hani_Hanjour#The_attack


Or was it because Rummy says so?

A five year-old could handle this debate better.

How did the fbi/cia ever name these hijackers responsible for crashing a plane into the pentagon in just three days after the attacks when the fbi/cia have claimed they failed to connect the dots with an assload of forewarnings they've received that could've help them prevent 9/11? It can't be simply by looking at arab sounding names on the passenger manifest.

Because ALL of these men had at least small links to radical islam, and some of them were already on the terrorist watch list!! Others had been implicated in the Cole bombing! PAY ATTENTION!

Why did they change one of the hijackers' name from Mosear Caned (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/14/bn.01.html) to Hani Hanjour (http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/14/fbi.document/) in the same day without explaining who Caned was and why he appeared on the original list of hijackers? In fact, why was Hani Hanjour's name not on the AA77 passenger manifest? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/graphics/attack/hijackers.html)

Because he was probably a walk on. keep in mind, this is all the product of PRE-9/11 airline policy. Things are a lot different now.

Let's say, for the sake of your ridiculous argument, that he WASN'T on the plane, and that someone else of the four in fact crashed the plane. The other four were DEFINITELY on the plane, and the they DEFINITELY had at least loose ties with Al Qaeda and radical Islam. Coincidence? No.

[Dr. Boogie]

No, Jordan's points actually stood.

I think what he meant was that he is to 9/11 what Michael Jordan is to baseball.

[Abcdxxxx]

Even if you're programmed to think all these conspiracy websites succeed at the sick pairing of debunking the "9/11 fable" + revising the facts of the Holocaust....

...they still fail miserably at PROVING the "real terrorists" are the US government + oil barons + exploiters of the Holocaust + Zionists that conspire to take over the world. Whis IS what the one thing they all are suggesting, if not outright claiming right? Doesn't it concern you when these people can't even discern between names, let alone internet rumors? Doesn't that put their credebility along with it's agenda into question regardless of their institutional affiliations?

[Ant10708]

Geggy you just got owned by Kevin.

But seriously Kevin we all know Travelocity is heavily invested in the U.S. government. Can you really expect such truth seekers to believe such biased sources? How does Travelocity know they bought the tickets anyways. Because their records show it? I laugh at records.



http://www.911hoax.com/

:lol

[Geggy]

Khalid al-Mihdhar: Fought along side Bosnian muslims in 1995, in Afghanistan against the Northern Alliance, and with Chechnyan muslims in 1998. Was randomly selected for extra screening during boarding, records show he stayed at a hotel in Herndon, VA the night before.

Majed Moqed: Also proven to be on the flight, and an picture taken in Green Belt, MD (right near DC) places him there with Hani Hanjour on 9/2/01.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/88/HanjiMajedATM.jpg

Nawaf al-Hazmi: Also fought in Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Chechnya.
Malaysian officials who recorded proceedings at the Al Qaeda summit that same year in January reported him talking at length on potential terrorist activities. Below is a picture of him being checked at Dulles on 9/11:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/Nawaf-Dulles-Searched.jpg

Salem al-Hazmi: Brother of nawaf, and btw, Travelocity shows that they both bought tix for Flight 77 in August online.
Because ALL of these men had at least small links to radical
islam, and some of them were already on the terrorist watch list!!
Others had been implicated in the Cole bombing! PAY ATTENTION!

Thanks for proving my point, kevin. You're so predictable heheh. If they were on terrorist watch list and some had been implicated in the cole bombing, how were they able to buy plane tickets online using a credit cards that showed their real names? When they've arrived into the US some of the times before 9/11, how were they able to bypass security with all these type of background info on their record? Usually those who are on terrorist watch list's record on the computer file will signal a red flag indicating that they are on CIA's watch list. Damn, only if the fbi, nsa, dia and the faa were paying attention especially with the forewarnings they've received...sighs...

Also it's a part of airliner's policy that when someone who is not an US citizen and buys a one way ticket, they will require to go through extra screening during boarding, and this was also before 9/11.

Hani Hanjour: "Hanjour obtained a commercial pilots license in 1999 and according to the chief instructor, "Despite Hanjour's poor reviews, he did have some ability as a pilot, "There's no doubt in my mind that once that [hijacked jet] got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it," he said."

You mean he may have illegally obtained a commercial pilots license.

Also, are you sure he was able pull a highly trained type of maneuver while flying a boeing 757 before hitting the pentagon? (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a041599hanjourlicense)

Because he was probably a walk on. keep in mind, this is all the product of PRE-9/11 airline policy. Things are a lot different
now.

Yeah, probably. Thats the key word here, probably

Let's say, for the sake of your ridiculous argument, that he
WASN'T on the plane, and that someone else of the four in fact crashed the plane. The other four were DEFINITELY on the plane, and the they DEFINITELY had at least loose ties with Al Qaeda and radical Islam. Coincidence? No.

They got onto the plane on whose account? The CIA? The conspiracy theorist inside me tells me that since they had little ties to al Qaeda and radical islam, they were perfect candidates as patsies. NSA's job is to spy on terror agents inside the US, so the hijackers were right under NSA's nose when they lived in maryland. (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a0801nsaentrance)

By the way, speaking of patsies, do you still think moussaoui had
anything to do with 9/11? Even "bin Laden" said he had no involvement in the audio tape that was released the other day. What was he doing in the US taking up aviation training? Why did they so desperately want him to be granted a death penalty?

[ranxer]

kevin thanks for pointing out your fascination with the kazinsky and me, yer right, i'm a closet luddite that is really so paranoid i work under psuedo names.. sheesh.

Really? Because even Chossudovsky wouldn't stand behind"The Hilarious Auschwitz story" and pulled it, claiming he had no idea such Holocaust revitionism was appearing on his site.

doesn't that prove my point about the site? a constant review of positions and admittance of falability is expected of honest people, without that i wouldn't trust the site. I jumped a bit on that one, i didn't mean to imply that i know the guy, just that ive heard/read enough of his lectures and books to think he's 99% credible. Don't lose your head over it though, the site does do some 'reporting' or linking of 'reports' that may be posted from a skeptical viewpoint.

[Ant10708]

I don't get you Geggy. You sometimes say bin laden audio tapes are the product of the us government and other times you use them to prove your theories. Also I cannot believe you discredited something because it only "probaly" happened.



"If they were on terrorist watch list and some had been implicated in the cole bombing, how were they able to buy plane tickets online using a credit cards that showed their real names? When they've arrived into the US some of the times before 9/11, how were they able to bypass security with all these type of background info on their record?"



Human error. And like you yourself just said, plenty of Arabs share the same name. People don't do their jobs efficiently all the time and before 9/11 the average American never even thought we'd be hit by a major terrorist attack so I don't see how airport secruity not paying attention to protocols they rarely ever had to use is much proof of anything.

Geggy even if the US was involved. Why is it that hard for you to believe that Islamic extremists hijacked planes and attacked the US?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Thanks for proving my point, kevin. You're so predictable heheh. If they were on terrorist watch list and some had been implicated in the cole bombing, how were they able to buy plane tickets online using a credit cards that showed their real names? When they've arrived into the US some of the times before 9/11, how were they able to bypass security with all these type of background info on their record? Usually those who are on terrorist watch list's record on the computer file will signal a red flag indicating that they are on CIA's watch list. Damn, only if the fbi, nsa, dia and the faa were paying attention especially with the forewarnings they've received...sighs...

But that was NOT your point, you dweeb. You asked me to prove to you that these men were A. on the plane, and B. had terrorist ties. I feel I have done that sufficiently.

You have no point. You're bouncing around from one theory to the next, all the while ignoring every valid point that gets thrown at you. You've been refuted every step of the way in this thread, but you just ignore the point and move along to another "oh yeah!!? well what if they were transported there by a fairy!!??" sort of comment.

Also it's a part of airliner's policy that when someone who is not an US citizen and buys a one way ticket, they will require to go through extra screening during boarding, and this was also before 9/11.

Dumbass, at least four out of the five DID go through extra screening at the checkpoint. See the pictures.

It's not that there wasn't information on these guys already out there. The problem was that agencies were out of the habit of sharing knowledge and communicating. As one of your OWN links told us, the FAA and the Pentagon didn't even have their systems linked in order to streamline the process if a hijacking were to occur.

Like Ant already said, we just weren't prepared for this. We took our security for granted, so the left hand never knew what the right hand was doing. It wasn't that those men were evil geniuses, it's that we were lazy and apathetic, and didn't pay attention to what was going on right under our noses. Various pundits and policy makers will tell you that neither Clinton nor Bush took the threat of terrorism seriously enough.

Also, are you sure he was able pull a highly trained type of maneuver while flying a boeing 757 before hitting the pentagon?[/url]

Yes, and the chief instructor confirmed this for us. He probably knows better than you and cooperativeresearch.org.


They got onto the plane on whose account? The CIA? The conspiracy theorist inside me tells me that since they had little ties to al Qaeda and radical islam, they were perfect candidates as patsies.

The bullshit detector in me tells me that you're an idiot, and that you also can't back up a thing you're claiming (other than with another link to cooperative research).

PROVE THAT THEY HAD "LITTLE" TIES TO AL QAEDA AND RADICAL ISLAM. PROVE IT. I've already proven otherwise, so give it a shot.


NSA's job is to spy on terror agents inside the US, so the hijackers were right under NSA's nose when they lived in maryland. (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a0801nsaentrance)

Look Geggy, I'm going to ask something of you that Max has asked of OAO. Before you click "submit", I'd like for you to print out the things you write, look yourself in a mirror, and read them to yourself before you post them here. I think this could be helpful for you.

Geggy, do fires happen near fire houses? Do crimes occur near police stations? Have you ever SEEN the NSA office building, Geggy? I drive past it quite frequently. Just like any other government agency, it's a big bureacracy with a lot of staff members and departments. It's predominantly run by civilians and bureacrats.

So please, expalin to me what in God's name is the relevance in how close they were to the physical office space? Is it terrible irony? Yes. Is it unfortunate? Of course. Is it an indication of some nefarious government cover up? I shouldn't even have to answer that.

By the way, speaking of patsies, do you still think moussaoui had
anything to do with 9/11? Even "bin Laden" said he had no involvement in the audio tape that was released the other day. What was he doing in the US taking up aviation training? Why did they so desperately want him to be granted a death penalty?

They wanted to kill him becasue he had a role in the mass murder of over 3,000 Americans. I'm glad they spared his rotten life though.

I think Ant already covered your hypocrisy regarding this Bin Laden stuff.

kevin thanks for pointing out your fascination with the kazinsky and me, yer right, i'm a closet luddite that is really so paranoid i work under psuedo names.. sheesh.

I have no interest in what you or Geggy specifically believe. As long as your "movement" remains what it is, a bunch of internet google searchers, ivory tower Leftists, and stupid Europeans, than I have no gripe with it.

My concern however, and my point in wasting time on these threads, is that you and Geggy drag down the entire debate with this nonsense. You certainly don't speak for a significant portion of the population, but that won't stop critics on the Right from allowing you to reflect that (which is why, if you noticed, folks like Blanco joke that you must be working for the RNC).

I not only think it's important that you're conspiracies get refuted, I also think it's important that liberals and so-called progressives dismiss this crap as well. Loudly.

There are problems in this country, and there are specifically gripes to be had with the Bush administration and the GOP. But it's important, IMO, that liberals and other Leftists stop playing into this stupid Bush hating, U.$. hating shit that has been so prevalent since the 1960's. Look back at some of the progressives and populists in our past-- Bob La Follette, Al Smith, and William jennings Bryan. These men were very critical of American imperial ambitions, but were also patriots (and often very Christian). They understood the place and purpose of their criticism, and weren't simply anti-American by default, not if logic, reason, and patriotism were to be exhausted in its place.

I think it's the responsibility of Leftists to dismiss your theories. And it's kind of fun.

[Geggy]

Hey now remember, take a step back and breath. I can understand that its tough for me to convince most of the new yorkers about the 9/11 cover ups. This isnt about left vs right, conversative vs liberal, bush bashing and all that silly bs. I'm starting to notice that even growing numbers of republican conversatives are starting to question the 9/11 cover up. I mean, it's insane not to!!

Look back at some of the progressives and populists in our past-- Bob La Follette, Al Smith, and William jennings Bryan.

I know you have a thing for patriotic progressives, probably even more for the hot, professional-looking female kind, like Sibel Edmonds (http://www.justacitizen.com/), for example. She was a former FBI translator who were told to gag it but refused and got canned. She has larger cojones than Max Cleland and was the person who convinced me by her quote sayin that at least 10 people from inside the us government agencies were involved with the 9/11 planning.

Moussaoui was sentenced with life imprisonment because of his relations with al-Qaeda. Family members of the 9/11 victims believes he was the wrong guy to be on trial and would like to see those with deeper involvement of the 9/11 planning on trial instead, but they didnt say who exactly. Then lo and behold, "bin Laden" releases an audio tape saying moussaoui had no involvement. What convinient time for him to tell us that kind of info.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I can understand that its tough for me to convince most of the new yorkers about the 9/11 cover ups.

Where does this asinine thought process come from? Washington, DC/Virginia was also attacked. A plane full of innocent people went down in Pennsylvania. This effected the entire country, and any unwillingness to listen to your garble has nothing to do with geography. It has to do with common sense, and your lack in having any.


This isnt about left vs right, conversative vs liberal, bush bashing and all that silly bs. I'm starting to notice that even growing numbers of republican conversatives are starting to question the 9/11 cover up. I mean, it's insane not to!!

uh huh.....

You're a Bush basher, Geggy. You border on plain old anti-American. You also flirt with anti-semitism. The noton that you're simply a "truth seeker" is hysterical.

I know you have a thing for patriotic progressives, probably even more for the hot, professional-looking female kind, like Sibel Edmonds (http://www.justacitizen.com/), for example. She was a former FBI translator who were told to gag it but refused and got canned. She has larger cojones than Max Cleland and was the person who convinced me by her quote sayin that at least 10 people from inside the us government agencies were involved with the 9/11 planning.

Super. I think you missed my point. I'm not asking people like you to wear American flag pins and pledge allegiance before you rant about 9/11 conspiracies. What I'm asking is that you stop being retarded, and STOP BEING SO VOCAL ABOUT IT!


Moussaoui was sentenced with life imprisonment because of his relations with al-Qaeda. Family members of the 9/11 victims believes he was the wrong guy to be on trial and would like to see those with deeper involvement of the 9/11 planning on trial instead, but they didnt say who exactly. Then lo and behold, "bin Laden" releases an audio tape saying moussaoui had no involvement. What convinient time for him to tell us that kind of info.

That makes no sense at all. Ant already covered this, so I won't repeat myself.

As for the 9/11 families-- I'm guessing the family members of 9/11 victims think a lot of things. Their loss was terrible, and I feel for them. That doesn't mean that they should be deciding policy, prosecuting terrorists, or be running the war on terrorism.

[Geggy]

First off, the security prior to and on 9/11 is too methodical to be considered a failure. I envy you for thinking that because I want to believe it was a failure but there are overwhelming evidence that contradicts the failure theory. And not a single officials from intelligence agencies has been fired, instead got promotions and awarded with medals, how do you explain that?

You've got every single thing you've said about me totally backwards. You dont think bush deserves a bashing from time to time because of the corruption and incompetence? And I'm anti american because I'm bashing bush for destroying this country? I'm pissed off for to 9/11 victims because not a single suspect has yet been brought to justice.

How is it anti semtic to think that the number of dead in the holocaust was revised to 6 million for political gain? What does holocaust have to do with 9/11?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

First off, the security prior to and on 9/11 is too methodical to be considered a failure. I envy you for thinking that because I want to believe it was a failure but there are overwhelming evidence that contradicts the failure theory.

Where is it? All of the so-called evidence you've presented has been bitch slapped.

Have you ever heard of a monday morning quarterback? It's really easy, after 9/11, to look back and say "OMG, HOW DID WE MISS THAT, CONSPIRACY!@1"

It wasn't that respective agencies weren't doing their jobs. A big problem was that they weren't talking to each other. We hadn't been attacked on the continental U.S. since 1812, Geggy. Pearl Harbor was an attack on a military base, on an island, not a civilian center.

I think you also aren't taking into account the barbarism involved in the attack. Prior to 9/11, who would've imagined such an attack? (and before you start foaming at the mouth about Bin Laden's attack memo, keep in mind that intelligence agencies are hammered every day with those things, all of which have degrees of truthiness and veracity).

btw, what's your opinion on the Patriot Act?


And not a single officials from intelligence agencies has been fired, instead got promotions and awarded with medals, how do you explain that?

Yeah, becasue if you were the masterminds of a conspiracy, the FIRST thing you'd do is publicly reward your co-conspirators. :rolleyes

We completely revamped our security agencies, Geggy. We took Joe Lieberman's advice and created a department of Homeland Security (which I'm sure you oppose 100%, b/c you're a reactionary Bush hater).

The FBI, taking the heat to heart, initiated several changes:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32336.html#_1_7

Organizational Changes

The FBI is restructuring to support an integrated intelligence program. The FBI director has also created new intelligence-related positions and entities at FBI Headquarters and across its 56 field offices to improve its intelligence capacity.

New Position of Executive Assistant Director for Intelligence (EAD-I) and the Office of Intelligence. As part of his effort to centralize control, Director Mueller established a new position -- the EAD-I. (30) The EAD-I manages a single intelligence program across the FBI's four investigative/operational divisions -- counterterrorism, counterintelligence, criminal, and cyber. Previously, each division controlled and managed its own intelligence program. To emphasize its new and enhanced priority, the Director also elevated intelligence from program support to full program status, and established a new Office of Intelligence (OI). The OI is responsible for implementing an integrated FBI-wide intelligence strategy, developing an intelligence analyst career path, and ensuring that intelligence is appropriately shared within the FBI as well as with other federal agencies. (31) The Office also is charged with improving strategic analysis, implementing an intelligence requirements and collection regime, and ensuring that the FBI's intelligence policies are implemented. Finally, the office oversees the FBI's participation in the Terrorist Threat Integration Center (TTIC). (32)

The OI, headed by an Assistant Director who reports to the EAD-I, is comprised of six units: (1) Career Intelligence (works to develop career paths for intelligence analysts), (2) Strategic Analysis (provides strategic analyses to senior level FBI executives), (3) Oversight (oversees field intelligence groups), (4) Intelligence Requirements and Collection Management (establishes and implements procedures to manage the FBI intelligence process), (5) Administrative Support, and (6) Executive Support. (33)

New Field Office Intelligence Groups. The FBI has established field intelligence groups in each of its 56 field offices to raise the priority of intelligence and ultimately to drive collection, analysis and dissemination at the local level. Each field intelligence group is responsible for managing, executing and coordinating their local intelligence resources in a manner which is consistent with national priorities. (34) A field intelligence group is comprised of intelligence analysts, (35) who conduct largely tactical analyses; special agents, who are responsible for intelligence collection; and reports officers, a newly created position. (36) Reports officers are expected to play a key role by sifting raw, unevaluated intelligence and determining to whom it should be disseminated within the FBI and other federal agencies for further processing.

With regard to counterintelligence, which is any intelligence about the capabilities, intent, and operations of foreign intelligence services, or those individuals or organizations operating on behalf of foreign powers, working against the U.S., the FBI has established six field demonstration projects led by experienced FBI retirees. These teams are responsible for assessing intelligence capabilities at six individual field offices and making recommendations to correct deficiencies. (37)

New National (and More Regional) Joint Terrorism Task Force (s). In July 2002, the FBI established a National Joint Terrorism Task Force (NJTTF), which coordinates its nation-wide network of 84 Joint Terrorism Task Forces (JTTFs). (38) The NJTTF also coordinates closely with the FBI's newly established Counterterrorism Watch, a 24-hour operations center, which is responsible for tracking terrorist threats and disseminating information about them to the JTTFs, to the Department of Homeland Security's Homeland Security Operations Center and, indirectly, to state and local law enforcement. CT Watch is located at the FBI's 24-hour Strategic Intelligence Operations Center (SIOC). (39) With respect to regional JTTFs, the Bureau has increased their number from 66 to 84, and the number of state and local participants has more than quadrupled -- from 534 to over 2,300, according to the FBI.

The fact that you think no changes were made, or no accountability was encouraged simply because department heads weren't fired, proves that you're not genuinely interested in these agencies doing things better. You instead have nothing more than a pedantic interest in bashing the Bush administration.

You've got every single thing you've said about me totally backwards. You dont think bush deserves a bashing from time to time because of the corruption and incompetence? And I'm anti american because I'm bashing bush for destroying this country?

How has he destroyed the country, Geggy?

I think Bush deserves a lot of legitimate criticism. Which is why people like you have no place in that debate.


I'm pissed off for to 9/11 victims because not a single suspect has yet been brought to justice.

What the hell are you talking about? The hijackers are dead, btw. Moussaoui was convicted, but he was just set up by the U.S. government and not-Osama Bin Laden, right?

I could cite several links about Al Qaeda arrests and killings made all around the globe since 9/11. We gave them a serious blow to their infrastructure while invading Afghanistan. The recent bombing in Pakistan killed high level Al Qaeda operatives. I'm not going to go to the trouble of citing too much, becasue it's a wasted effort on you. You'll simply bounce around it like Daffey Duck.

How is it anti semtic to think that the number of dead in the holocaust was revised to 6 million for political gain? What does holocaust have to do with 9/11?

You're an anti-semite.

[Geggy]

We hadn't been attacked on the continental U.S. since 1812, Geggy. Pearl Harbor was an attack on a military base, on an island, not a civilian center.

Umm...WTC '93 bombing? Oklahoma city bombing? Were you born yesterday?

I'll answer the rest when I got time.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

WTC '93 didn't have the bearing on the entire country like 9/11, so strike one.

Oklahoma City bombing was an internal terrorist action, and not an attack, so strike two.

Come on, one more time....

[Abcdxxxx]

How is it anti semtic to think that the number of dead in the holocaust was revised to 6 million for political gain?


Uh, because it is anti-semitic to say the victims of the Holocaust, primariy Jews, have distorted facts to manipulate politics. End of story. Nobody fixates on the facts of the Rwanda or Armenian genocides... your issue is with your distrust of Jews and belief in secret cabals.


What does holocaust have to do with 9/11?

GOOD QUESTION! Ask your conspiracists webmasters why they keep making the connection, or why everything you talk about always seems to gravitate towards 9/11, Nazis, and Jewish conspiracies.

[Preechr]

Ask your conspiracists webmasters why they keep making the connection, or why everything you talk about always seems to gravitate towards 9/11, Nazis, and Jewish conspiracies.

Good question.

Hitler has become our most easily grasped embodiment of the concept of Satan. Jews, the chosen of God, have served as representatives of the children of God. 9/11, well... that was just a function of globalization.

[Abcdxxxx]

hahah guess I won't have to tune into the 700 Club this week, thanks.