Rep. Murtha says Marines killed civilians in cold blood

[mburbank]

This is proof positive that war makes you fucking nuts. Revenge killing of whole families, children included, toddlers included. I am NOT making a blanket statement that these guys are representative of US soldiers, but is it coincidence tat this whole unit was comprised of people who could do something like this, or had enough people in it to do this and try to cover it up? I'm guessing you have no way of knowing who or how many or which soldiers will be driven totally mad by the shit we're putting them through. Keep this up lomg enough and they'll be no line between 'us' and 'them' at all, just crazy ass rats in a cage trying to rip each other apart.







Lawmaker: Marines Killed Iraqis "In Cold Blood"
By Jim Miklaszewski and Mike Viqueira
NBC News

Wednesday 17 May 2006

Navy conducting war crimes probe into November violence in Haditha.

Washington - A Pentagon probe into the death of Iraqi civilians last November in the Iraqi city of Haditha will show that U.S. Marines "killed innocent civilians in cold blood," a U.S. lawmaker said Wednesday.

From the beginning, Iraqis in the town of Haditha said U.S. Marines deliberately killed 15 unarmed Iraqi civilians, including seven women and three children.

One young Iraqi girl said the Marines killed six members of her family, including her parents. "The Americans came into the room where my father was praying," she said, "and shot him."

On Wednesday, Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., said the accounts are true.

Military officials told NBC News that the Marine Corps' own evidence appears to show Murtha is right.

A videotape taken by an Iraqi showed the aftermath of the alleged attack: a blood-smeared bedroom floor and bits of what appear to be human flesh and bullet holes on the walls.

The video, obtained by Time magazine, was broadcast a day after town residents told The Associated Press that American troops entered homes on Nov. 19 and shot dead 15 members of two families, including a 3-year-old girl, after a roadside bomb killed a U.S. Marine.

On Nov. 20, U.S. Marines spokesman Capt. Jeffrey Pool issued a statement saying that on the previous day a roadside bomb had killed 15 civilians and a Marine. In a later gunbattle, U.S. and Iraqi troops killed eight insurgents, he said.

U.S. military officials later confirmed that the version of events was wrong.

Murtha, a vocal opponent of the war in Iraq, said at a news conference Wednesday that sources within the military have told him that an internal investigation will show that "there was no firefight, there was no IED (improvised explosive device) that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood."

Military officials say Marine Corp photos taken immediately after the incident show many of the victims were shot at close range, in the head and chest, execution-style. One photo shows a mother and young child bent over on the floor as if in prayer, shot dead, said the officials, who spoke to NBC News on condition of anonymity because the investigation hasn't been completed.

One military official says it appears the civilians were deliberately killed by the Marines, who were outraged at the death of their fellow Marine.

"This one is ugly," one official told NBC News.

Three Marine officers - commanders in Haditha - have been relieved of duty, and at least 12 Marines in all are under investigation for what would be the worst single incident involving the deliberate killing of civilians by U.S. military in Iraq.

The Marine Corps issued a statement in response to Murtha's remarks:

"There is an ongoing investigation; therefore, any comment at this time would be inappropriate and could undermine the investigatory and possible legal process. As soon as the facts are known and decisions on future actions are made, we will make that information available to the public to the fullest extent allowable."

Murtha held the news conference to mark six months since his initial call for "redeployment" of U.S. forces from Iraq.

He said U.S. forces were under undue pressure in Iraq because of poor planning and allocation of resources by the Bush administration.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

And these crimes have been targeted, investigated, publicised, and these men have apparently been relieved of duty. If convicted of these crimes, they may do time.

God bless America.

[Preechr]

Thank God for Representative Murtha. I would just hate to live in a world where investigations of things could be completed before we all had a chance to learn life lessons from them. What the fuck good are facts? That's what I always say...

I prefer to be spoonfed, like Max, whatever people like Murtha feel I should feel about things at intervals designed to make sure we don't all forget about his exceedingly important self. I mean, you know, he's a military guy and he, like Max, just so happens to be willing to say or do (or believe) anything that works toward even a slight margin of victory for the Democrat campaign machine. Just like a real war, we should be prepared to do anything, and I mean anything, to win.

In Murtha's world, this is the kind of thing you or me or anybody would do in desparate times. A photo of a dead child that was obviously praying for peace? If I'm desparate enough, I'd sneak up and shoot that little kid in the back too. Hell, I might even vote for a Democrat like Murtha. What else could we possibly infer from a picture of a dead child? Why do they even need to investigate something like that? NBC News says he was praying, right?

I'm with Max on this one. I say cut and run and when I say that, I'm pointing a finger at George Bush and Dick Cheney and all those other guys that symbolize Republican power over guys like Murtha and Max. Desparate times call for desparate measures.

[Chojin]

preechr this is quite a change of heart for you i never knew you were capable of such understanding let me know next time you're in town i'll buy you a pint welcome to the fold brother

[mburbank]

So you think without the constaant threat (and reality) of Murtha exposing the invesgation, it would just follow a normal, legal course, and the public would get to know the truth and the guilty parti4es would be effectively reasonably punished? After all, that's how the investigation at Ahbu Garib has reacxhed so far up the chain of command and major chages have resulted. The sYSTEM WORKS!

[Preechr]

Oh, I forgot Murtha was in charge of the investigation into Abu Ghraib.

Y'know, I'd LOVE to believe that "the system" required political grandstanding at anyone's and eventually everyone's expense. That would make me much happier with the world, and I'd like that. Unfortunately, I live in the real world where Murtha is just trying to stay in the news, which for him obviously requires this sort of unseemly horseshit.

I am not offering any sort of verdict on the charges, as the investigation is ongoing. Even with Abu Ghraib, where we committed crimes, the media showed restraint in releasing the pictures that clearly depicted the crimes. Murtha is showing no restraint whatsoever, and his motivation is pure self-aggrandizement, which is disgusting.

The system does generally work. I'm not a big fan of police state supervision, but we're talking about a military operation here, not my own personal life. Soldiers report on everything they do, and improprieties are investigated. Crimes are uncovered. The purpose of these military investigations is to uncover crimes. The purpose of uncovering military crimes is to punish the guilty, bring justice to victims and correct the military policies and practices that allowed them to happen.

Murtha is attempting to use a military investigation for personal gain, regardless of the damage he might do to anyone, and I'm not only talking about a potentially innocent soldier wrongly accused. He has pronounced anyone involved (all the way up to the top!) guilty. That costs lives, both Iraqi and American... well, possibly also the lives of one of the seven or eight other coalition troops.

His comments are irresponsible and reprehensible. He should be drafted.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Sorry, but I have to agree with Preechr on this one. i dig Murtha's macho act just as much as the next guy, but going VERY public with all of this before the investigation can be concluded is irresponsible, and could cost more lives.

The Pentagon appears to be playing this one by the book, and several members have been briefed regularly on what's going on. Murtha should've waited.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Waiting makes it too late. I don't know how anyone could deny that these things are happening. I mean, we know the existene of 'bad cops.' This is more or less the same thing. Out of ALL the marines that were sent, how can anyone say that none of them are corrupt or taking advantage of their positions? Certainly it's not most of the soliders that are guilty of such things, but they definitely happen. Just like violence caused by Iraqi terrorists happen.

There are videos being launched of the violence taking place in Iraq, and believe it or not a lot of it is caused by Americans. One video (which was shot with a journalist's phone) showed an American humiliating a child and then beating the shit out of him.

I support Murtha's decision for doing this as soon as he had the chance to. These things really need to be exposed.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Waiting makes it too late. I don't know how anyone could deny that these things are happening. I mean, we know the existene of 'bad cops.' This is more or less the same thing. Out of ALL the marines that were sent, how can anyone say that none of them are corrupt or taking advantage of their positions? Certainly it's not most of the soliders that are guilty of such things, but they definitely happen. Just like violence caused by Iraqi terrorists happen.

Well shit, why the heck haven't you spoken up sooner, fuzzbot!!? Here we are going through all of this "red tape" stuff with these marines, while you knew what happened all along.

You're absolutely right. I mean, we give petty thieves and murderers their fair day in court, but show me (SHOW ME!) where it says our marines and soldiers are entitled to the same thing. It's like I always say, if you know someone's guilty, why bother with the pomp??? Throw the book at them.

There are videos being launched of the violence taking place in Iraq, and believe it or not a lot of it is caused by Americans. One video (which was shot with a journalist's phone) showed an American humiliating a child and then beating the shit out of him.

Linky? What reputable media outlet is releasing this video?

I support Murtha's decision for doing this as soon as he had the chance to. These things really need to be exposed.

Please explain how it would've hurt to wait until the investigation was over, I'm failing to see how one could argue that....

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Well shit, why the heck haven't you spoken up sooner, fuzzbot!!? Here we are going through all of this "red tape" stuff with these marines, while you knew what happened all along.
Why, I have no idea, Sir! I know that denying this shit is more fun, especially for the Americans who worry about their worldwide reputation! Maybe I could try it! And assume that Americans are doing their best not to torture the fuck out of those useless goons? Jee! Sounds like a plan! Never happened, then! Bite down on dick, Murtha!
You're absolutely right.
No way I understand where you're coming from, it's perfectly logical to WAIT until more hideous crimes against humanity are taking place! It's more dangerous for America's reputation and really, it can cost lives! Of Iraqis, though! So it doesn't matter! Wow if only I knew! IF ONLY I KNEW!

Seriously though, if names were showing up, and more evidence was appearing, do you think these people are going to face proper charges? I mean, Burbank already posted a link many months ago about the soldiers at Abu Ghraib receiving no more than 2 months in prison. Because these people are "marines" serving their countries, I don't see them facing charges for murder. I really think it'll be easy for them to get away with this. So, if the investigation is completely over and Murtha's statements turn out to be completely true, what do you think should happen to these people, and what do you think should happen when it comes to America's involvement in Iraq?
Linky? What reputable media outlet is releasing this video?
I saw it on Al-Arabiya, a popular news network run by the same people who run MBC, which to you may be biased or 'made up,' it's kind of like America's CNN except slightly more open-minded. I looked on their website and only found an article on it (in Arabic), so I'm just going to say that it might have happened. I don't know for sure, the video itself was very convincing but maybe you'd think otherwise. Hell, I have seen marines in Bahrain turn a few citizens here into the laughing stock of their little 'gangs,' which is why I tend to believe a lot of the things said against their services worldwide. So I have my biasis too. What I've seen of them here is why I tend to believe these charges without documented proof, and I know that's dangerous, but it's a lot like whether or not you'd believe Al Qaida had anything to do with, say, a bomb in East Timor. You wouldn't doubt it and look for proper proof when you know that's their style, and when someone asks you to prove it, you'd say "come on, it's Al Qaida we're talking about here!" I know it's not the same, making fun of people and actually killing them, but it shows the utter lack of respect they have. 'They' certainly doesn't mean 'most,' I can't speak for all marines, but definitely a large number. At least here, the home of the 5th U.S base in the Persian Gulf.

That's how a lot of people in the Arab world are going to respond to the article Burbank posted above.
Please explain how it would've hurt to wait until the investigation was over, I'm failing to see how one could argue that....
My theory is this: If I put myself in the shoes of any of these marines, knowing fully well that the investigations so far are being leaked into the media, I wouldn't cause more shit, if I was one of the ones being accused of killing innocent people for no apparent reason. Meaning, if this had waited, it gives the marines in charge more time to kill even more innocent people, thinking they can get away with it (which, like I said, I think they can.) Then again, I think it would've helped if all the marines and intelligence officers in charge in Iraq knew about this before it went completely public. They'd have the right to know what's being said about them, in case they're victims of exaggerated reporting. But Americans need to know what's going on as soon as possible, too. The pictures of what was going on in Abu Ghraib took a really long time for them to be released, and you have no idea how many opinions it changed on whether or not America's doing what Bush and Rumsfeld keep saying they're doing.

I think the fact that the American media is covering this helps America's case a lot. Abu Ghraib's case was reported in one of the newspapers in Egypt days before the Americans made it completely public, and it was completely ugly. The anger it stirred from Arabs was frightening. I think, for the sake of Americans themselves as well as for the Iraqis whose lives may still be danger in the hands of these marines, it's best to come clean as fast as possible. It won't be that bad if you remind the public that "investigations are still not over and this may be proven wrong."

I know it causes embarrassment to the families whose sons or fathers serve as marines in Iraq, and it also causes a lot of worry, but the later people like Murtha wait, the more lives it could cost, and the more time it gives for some people to hide any evidence. Which I know sounds bizarre, but the possibilities are still in the air, and it's these things that I think Murtha was thinking about before he decided to say this knowing that the investigations weren't completely over. He seems to know that the facts are going to show up whether people like it or not, and if they aren't, he's going to work harder until he finds the evidence, otherwise imagine his position if all of this is proven to be wrong. He knew the harm it would cause, that's why I think he knows the results already. It's like a prediction or hypothesis you know you're right about, but you're just waiting for the results in the lab to prove your case in order to rule out any doubts.

If you release it in one go, complete with evidence, it'll be more shocking and hard to accept, but if you heard about it even through 'rumours' you would have had a long time to give it thought and attention.

Like I said, I have my biasis because of where I am, I could be completely wrong. I know certain marines here who are ashamed to be marines because of what a huge number of their "team" does, but it takes courage to be where they are and do what they do everyday and the few marines who do their work properly never get the appreciation or thanks for it because of the ones that ruin their reputation within the country and beyond. The same will happen to the ones in Iraq. They'll be attacked instead of rewarded. And while that may be sad and unfair, it will be even more sad if they tried to deny anything that happened for their own sake. It's inhumane. But to them that may not be wrong, seeing as desensitizing humans and lessening their importance is part of their training (not just theirs, but any country's military.)

If anything Murtha has said is true, I just hope withdrawl will be an option. Because this is a new occupation that Iraq is under, not 'the road to democracy.'

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I know that denying this shit is more fun, especially for the Americans who worry about their worldwide reputation! Maybe I could try it! And assume that Americans are doing their best not to torture the fuck out of those useless goons? Jee! Sounds like a plan! Never happened, then! Bite down on dick, Murtha!

Murtha's bedrom behavior aside, please tell me, who's pretending this isn't happening? Murtha himself wouldn't know what he knows about it were it not for the investigation that's still going on.


No way I understand where you're coming from, it's perfectly logical to WAIT until more hideous crimes against humanity are taking place! It's more dangerous for America's reputation and really, it can cost lives! Of Iraqis, though! So it doesn't matter! Wow if only I knew! IF ONLY I KNEW!

You keep talking about America's "reputation" around the world. This could cost American, AND Iraqi lives. Do you think the shitbag insurgents won't use this as an excuse to blow up some cars, or maybe a mosque??? It's irresponsible on Murtha's part, while American men and women are still under fire, for him to create inflated tension over an issue that hasn't even been resolved yet. I'm sure though that if any young men and/or women get injured, he'll go visit them at Walter Reed (which he reminded everyone of several times this morning on "This Week").


Seriously though, if names were showing up, and more evidence was appearing, do you think these people are going to face proper charges? I mean, Burbank already posted a link many months ago about the soldiers at Abu Ghraib receiving no more than 2 months in prison. Because these people are "marines" serving their countries, I don't see them facing charges for murder. I really think it'll be easy for them to get away with this.

Well hold on now, what's your concern here? I thought we wanted to stop all of this supposed genocide and human rights violations that are going on? Do you want these marines caught and exposed, or do you want them publicly executed (all before they've been charged btw)???

What about Ilario Pantano??? There was a witness there too, and he supposedly murdered two captives. Of course, it then turns out that the forensic evidence supported Pantano's (http://washingtontimes.com/national/20050527-121257-4988r.htm) version of the story, and he was exonerated.

That however hasn't stopped the European and Arabic media, as well as the Lefty blogosphere, from invoking his and other names in order to smear the U.$.

So go ahead, let's release every accusation levied against our soldiers. I mean, why check the veracity of a story? Let's just release these stories, and if it riles up more Iraqis and radical muslims, awesome. That's totally responsible on Murtha's part.

So, if the investigation is completely over and Murtha's statements turn out to be completely true, what do you think should happen to these people, and what do you think should happen when it comes to America's involvement in Iraq?

I think if these men are actually indicted and convicted, they will be punished in accordance with the law.

As for our presence in Iraq, I don't necessarily see the connection. These men, IF guilty, violated the code of conduct for being in the U.S. military, and they also disgraced the Constitution they swore to defend. They are a tiny %, not the norm, and don't reflect any of the work we are doing in Iraq.


Linky? What reputable media outlet is releasing this video?
I saw it on Al-Arabiya, a popular news network run by the same people who run MBC, which to you may be biased or 'made up,' it's kind of like America's CNN except slightly more open-minded. I looked on their website and only found an article on it (in Arabic), so I'm just going to say that it might have happened. I don't know for sure, the video itself was very convincing but maybe you'd think otherwise.

Well, when they maybe might decide to back up such serious accusations with some proof, let me know.


What I've seen of them here is why I tend to believe these charges without documented proof, and I know that's dangerous, but it's a lot like whether or not you'd believe Al Qaida had anything to do with, say, a bomb in East Timor. You wouldn't doubt it and look for proper proof when you know that's their style, and when someone asks you to prove it, you'd say "come on, it's Al Qaida we're talking about here!"

I don't think the two have anything in common. First of all, you're looking at the poor behavior that grabs your attention, and assuming that that's the norm. It isn't. Kulturkamf pukes all over himself in public in Seoul and has sex with dogs, does that mean all soldiers stationed in South Korea behave this way? Of course not.

Al Qaeda targets civilians. They reward suicide and murder. End of comparison.


That's how a lot of people in the Arab world are going to respond to the article Burbank posted above.

Uh, yeah, and I'm guessing radical muslims love the fact that this story will draw a crazy reaction. It won't matter if these guys are found innocent, the story will already have been placed in the Arab world.

Which is again why I find Murtha's actions irresponsible.


My theory is this: If I put myself in the shoes of any of these marines, knowing fully well that the investigations so far are being leaked into the media, I wouldn't cause more shit, if I was one of the ones being accused of killing innocent people for no apparent reason. Meaning, if this had waited, it gives the marines in charge more time to kill even more innocent people, thinking they can get away with it (which, like I said, I think they can.)

And maybe this theory would make sense, if only there were a shred of proof that all of these mass atrocities were going on there. However, the case being what it is, these have proven to be exceptions to the norm.

Do soldiers and marines do bad things? Of course they do. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. But the bottom line is that these actions, as despicable as they are, are the actions of a small minority of our troops. The Arab (and European) media would love to turn this the way you did above-- oh, well, if these three guys did this, then they all do this, and well they should withdraw immediately.

I think this exposes a politica agenda, one that actually devalues the lives of the innocent lost. Tell me this, how many innocent Iraqis may die in a car bombing or a suicide bombing in a crowded public place due to this unconfirmed story??? The so-called insurgents will certainly use this, no???


I think, for the sake of Americans themselves as well as for the Iraqis whose lives may still be danger in the hands of these marines, it's best to come clean as fast as possible.

Uh, ok, except that nothing has actually been proven yet. It's funny that you're so concerned that marines are digging mass graves as we speak, but what about the innocent lives that may be lost in retaliation to this story...?

If specific marines are under investigation, chances are they ar not out inth field right now.....pending, ya know, an investigation! Shit, don't you guys watch law & order????

I know it causes embarrassment to the families whose sons or fathers serve as marines in Iraq, and it also causes a lot of worry, but the later people like Murtha wait, the more lives it could cost, and the more time it gives for some people to hide any evidence. Which I know sounds bizarre, but the possibilities are still in the air, and it's these things that I think Murtha was thinking about before he decided to say this knowing that the investigations weren't completely over.

THE MARINES CRAVE BLOOD, SOMEONE STOP THEM!!!

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that we had sent the Khmer Rouge over to Iraq to fight for us.

Let me repeat this-- I don't care much about national reputation, or the personal reputations at stake fo these marines and their families. If they're guilty, fuck 'em.

But I firmly believe that this story could COST INNOCENT LIVES. Any concerns over image, beyond what reaction said image might draw from the "Arab Street", is pretty irrelevant to me. I do however think lives are at stake, and it's wrong to crawl on to the House floor and start persecuting our marines, while many others are still taking fie in Iraq and Afghanistan as we speak. We wouldn't dothat to the lowliest of our criminals, why would we do that to them???


I know certain marines here who are ashamed to be marines because of what a huge number of their "team" does, but it takes courage to be where they are and do what they do everyday and the few marines who do their work properly never get the appreciation or thanks for it because of the ones that ruin their reputation within the country and beyond.

Which I think was precisely my point above. But when do we reach a point where we stop allowing these small incidents to define us? Or better yet, why do we let murderers and radicals, those who would behead reporters and blow up mosques, define OUR supposed barbarism??? Double standard anyone???


If anything Murtha has said is true, I just hope withdrawl will be an option. Because this is a new occupation that Iraq is under, not 'the road to democracy.'

Uh, why? What the hell do the actions of a handful of marines have to do with the overall mission? Again, if these men are guilty, they WILL be punished. Justice served, yay yay Semper Fi. If anything, it should serve as a model for how to do things (as opposed to the leftover Baahists who seem to have their own version of justice).

If you've convinced yourself that the geatest threat to Iraqis is the U.S. military, than I must question your sincerity regarding this case. I personally think what makes it so horrible is its exceptional nature. The overwhelming majority of marines and soldiers do not behave this way. They ARE a disgrace, and they do tarnish our reputation. But the only reason their actions achieve that is because we have the reputation to disgrace and tarnish. The same can't really be said of our enemies....

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

As for our presence in Iraq, I don't necessarily see the connection.
Oh come ON now, you think this wouldn't happen again? This will continue for as long as America is present, whether you can accept that or not.
Murtha's bedrom behavior aside, please tell me, who's pretending this isn't happening?
Well jee I dunno, how about anyone who blindly supports America's invasion and over-stay at Iraq? What are they trying to enforce now, stability or democracy? I forgot. I thought they were just there to drastically increase the death tolls on both sides. BUT MERCILESS ANGEL OF TEARS, MAYBE I'M WRONG!
You keep talking about America's "reputation" around the world. This could cost American, AND Iraqi lives.
Uh, duh. It's costing American and Iraqi lives whether this story goes public or not. America's reputation has everything to do with this, it's the first thing the administration is going to think about when the stories and pictures fully equipped with evidence get released. After Abu Ghraib, America's reputation went down hill, and it kept going downhill after pictures of the hideous crimes caused in Guantanemo Bay were being released too, and when this happens, you lose public support, which is exactly what you need.

Do you think the shitbag insurgents won't use this as an excuse to blow up some cars
Wait, you actually think these insurgents needed an excuse to begin with? They just fucking do it.

over an issue that hasn't even been resolved yet
Isn't this what he's trying to do, though? Help resolve the issue at hand? How do you expect this to be resolved if no one knows about it yet, even without the 'proof'? It's an eye-opener to what's going on.

Do you want these marines caught and exposed, or do you want them publicly executed (all before they've been charged btw)???

Those public executions are disgusting, Iraq is no longer under Saddam's rule and its few radical citizens should act like that. I want them caught, exposed, and fairly charged.

That however hasn't stopped the European and Arabic media, as well as the Lefty blogosphere, from invoking his and other names in order to smear the U.$.

So go ahead, let's release every accusation levied against our soldiers
Is this seriously all that you're worried about? Smearing the U.S? People are dying here. Innocent people. From both sides. FOR NO REASON. And you're worried that the U.S will be "smeared." Oh poor soldiers, they're witnessing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people for no cause at all! Not even democracy is worth that many lives. Not Iraqi lives, not American lives.

I mean, why check the veracity of a story? Let's just release these stories, and if it riles up more Iraqis and radical muslims, awesome.
So you don't want this story to go public because you worry about the reactions it may get, understandable. I never like any of the reactions caused by Muslim extremists, but America has the technology to take these people out. Radical Muslims is why they're still there, right? You know, those few sourly bitter men who execute both American AND Arab-Muslim journalists on public TV. Notice: Not just Americans are the ones dying in the hands of these radicals. More foreigners are being taken hostage than Americans. So you shouldn't be the only ones worrying. The whole world has the right to worry. Doesn't change the fact that true victims here are the Iraqis, and this should be proven to the world. If people think the Iraqis are so insane, maybe after these stories are released, they'll understand what made the insanity in them burst.

I think if these men are actually indicted and convicted, they will be punished in accordance with the law.
I think otherwise, but we'll see.

They are a tiny %, not the norm, and don't reflect any of the work we are doing in Iraq.

Then what are you doing in Iraq, walking around with guns smiling at kids and passing out lollypops? Yeah, it's Christmas for the Iraqis every fucking day, huh? That's what all the complaints are about. That's why soldiers are being traumatized for the shit they did. That's why the citizens are complaining that there isn't enough seats for women and children at Iraqi hospitals. Yeah, they sure as hell are doing a decent job in Iraq, I just don't have any idea why they keep giving them more and more ammunition if they don't use it at all! No idea why! Maybe it's for the fire works! Yeah, that'd make the kids reallllly happy! 'Cause that's what America's there for! TO KEEP US HAPPY. PRAISE THE LORD. CONDI RICE MAKES CHILDREN SMILE. WRITE THAT DOWN.

Well, when they maybe might decide to back up such serious accusations with some proof, let me know.
There was no proof made for whoever "took" responsibility of the 9/11 attacks. That was a serious accusation. And half of the people didn't ask for the proof because you know what? They didn't wanna believe it. Go go Fox News!

Al Qaeda targets civilians.
And who the flying fuck does American soldiers target? 'SUSPECTS?' Does over 200,000 dead fucking ring a bell? Over 200,000 in TWO YEARS, that many suspects? Obviously the death toll is much higher now. But innocent people are dying in the hands of American soldiers everywhere, including Afghanistan. Soldiers went there by choice. Citizens are there in their own countries being taken out, one by one.

of all, you're looking at the poor behavior that grabs your attention, and assuming that that's the norm.
I never said it's the norm, in fact I made it perfectly clear that it wasn't the norm, but I said IT MATTERS. Because the few people who are killing others are doing it hideously and with no fucking limits, and with over 50 Iraqis dying per day, I REALLY DON'T THINK THEY ARE BEING KILLED BECAUSE THEY ARE SUSPECTS OR VICTIMS OF THEIR OWN CRIMES. In other words, I don't think the civil war killed that many people. Yes, the Shiite leader declared a genocide against the Sunnis, but he doesn't have the weapons required to do that, or enough support for that matter. A lot of Sunnis and Shiites have nothing against each other and think this is no time for a civil war, that was an exaggerated report which only included hundreds from both sides, out of the huge population, which is drastically decreasing, thanks to who, the civil war which was caused recently by the way? No. It's because of the advanced American air strikes and missiles that are inevitably attacking innocent people EVEN if they weren't the specific targets. War is not about love and forgiveness or "hey careful with that rocket, you may kill a child!"

To join the army you have one aim: To kill, destroy. Nothing else. Decentisizations plays a huge factor in the military. So how many soldiers are gonna go there with a big and fluffy heart?

radical muslims
Just like American "bad apples" exist, Arab or Muslim "bad apples" exist too, but at least they're not state-appointed and more advantaged when it comes to getting away with it.

Like I said, stop worrying about how the Arabs will react and start worrying about what your kids are doing in Iraq.

I'm not going to sugarcoat it. But the bottom line is that these actions, as despicable as they are, are the actions of a small minority of our troops.
Oh and so what? Does it matter that all Muslims were being blamed when a bunch of nutters went insane over a bunch of cartoons? Does it matter that all Muslims were being framed as the enemy when a bunch of planes crashed into the twin towers and pentagon?

We KNOW it's the actions of the few in Murtha's story, if you give us the number of people involved that would be further proof of it. Other than that, it's fucking common sense, that still doesn't mean that what the rest are doing is just passing out flowers. The situation in Iraq is fucking chaos. Like Burbank said, people are killing people. Not Americans killing Iraqis, not vice versa, it's a jungle. And by the time America leaves, it will be a hole full of blood, with dead bodies floating around like they didn't matter.

It's funny that you're so concerned that marines are digging mass graves as we speak, but what about the innocent lives that may be lost in retaliation to this story...?
Like I said, do you think this story shouldn't go public at ALL? BECAUSE, GOD FORBID, MORE PEOPLE WILL DIE! Would you rather they die in secret? Will that put a smile across your face? Will it make you so fucking happy that it'll make you wanna tap-dance your way to the nearest McDonald's and get yourself a happy meal becase a HAPPY man deserves a HAPPY meal because HEY, no more lives are being taken! Well, they are! But in secret! Like ya-ya sistahood where the girl is like "hey wtf is going on" and the other girl is like "shut your mouth it has nothing to do with you and plus it may cause more lives" and the other girl thinks the 2nd girl is weird and retarded so she ignores it and what happens when she ignores it? More people die. If Murtha ignores it, more people can die. If Murtha didn't talk at all, more people will die. It's how it is because that's what happens when your country's at war. People die.

Lives were being lost when Muslims were being blamed for the 9/11 attacks. My friend was beaten in London to the point where she had one arm severely disclocated for over 5 months, because of the accusasions made against Muslims. Why shouldn't facts be released if you worry about what it may cause? The story, whether released now with the 'evidence' being Murtha's remarks, or in 3 years or whenever the invesitagations are over, it's for the good of MOST people, and unfortunate for the few who may suffer because of it. Because most people deserve to know what these few 'bad apples' did just like everyone always knows what the few 'bad apple' Muslims do worldwide.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that we had sent the Khmer Rouge over to Iraq to fight for us.
Oh that's what they are? We didn't notice cause the Iraqi rats damaged their uniforms. God I gotta teach those Arabs some table manners.

But I firmly believe that this story could COST INNOCENT LIVES.
Just like I firmly believe that the war in Iraq is costing INNOCENT LIVES because of America's extensive involvement!

Uh, why? What the hell do the actions of a handful of marines have to do with the overall mission?
Do you honestly think they give a shit about democracy here? Nothing is worth that many lives. No political ideology. No government. No religion. NOTHING.

And I'll also put this in caps for the effect:

DEMOCRACY DOESN'T WORK PROPERLY IN THE MIDDLE EAST. BECAUSE UNEMPLOYMENT AND UNEDUCATION RATES ARE HUGE. BECAUSE TRIBALISM EXISTS. BECAUSE RELIGIOUS CONFLICTS EXIST. BECAUSE DEMOCRACY WOULD MEAN CIVIL WAR.

If you know anything about Arab history you should understand this very well. Take Palestine as an example. Their democracy made them self-destructive.

If you've convinced yourself that the geatest threat to Iraqis is the U.S.
No, right now, the biggest threat to the Iraqis is the Iraqis themselves, and THEIR reactions to one another. I mean, come on, their self-declared "leaders" are practically talking about performing a genocide on each other (I wish that read oral sex which would solve the whole problem. On 2nd thought no, I forgot how the Arab world may react to homosexual leaders.) But America is playing a role, a huge one, I don't see how you want to deny that. Like I said, the death toll is because of American ammunition, Iraqis don't have the tools for it. When America first invaded Iraqis were completely defenseless, but they were dying in large numbers, as much as hundreds per week. And that was before they had time for 'civil war,' they were still dealing with the shock.

The overwhelming majority of marines and soldiers do not behave this way. They ARE a disgrace, and they do tarnish our reputation.
I made this clear in my previous post that I know this, because I know marines who serve in Bahrain personally and if I was so anti-marines in general, I wouldn't befriend them.

But the only reason their actions achieve that is because we have the reputation to disgrace and tarnish. The same can't really be said of our enemies....
Enemies? Who, the Iraqis? Arab-Muslims have the worst reputations in the world and we mostly have the American media to thank for that. When I was in Boston, I heard nothing but "Muslims that, Arabs this" on TV and when I met people, and I DO NOT THINK THAT MOST AMERICANS THINK THIS WAY, because the media hardly represents public opinion, nor do I think that a majority of Arabs and Muslims are going to react the way you think they will. If you replaced 'marines' with 'Muslim extremists' in your last post, you'd be spot on, too, except I don't see anyone as our true "enemy." Terrorists are everybody's enemies, that's it, no one single "nation." That, to me, is racism or unnecessary hatred that promotes nationalism (the worst kind, in my case that would be the pan-Arabism.)

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Murtha's bedrom behavior aside, please tell me, who's pretending this isn't happening?
Well jee I dunno, how about anyone who blindly supports America's invasion and over-stay at Iraq? What are they trying to enforce now, stability or democracy? I forgot. I thought they were just there to drastically increase the death tolls on both sides. BUT MERCILESS ANGEL OF TEARS, MAYBE I'M WRONG!


Remember that political agenda I was referencing? Yeah, well you're it. You were right to admit your biases, but that doesn't necessarily make you right. I thought we were talking about the current investigation, but you seem to be talking about the evil American imperialist empire. I'd prefer to sit at the grownups table, thanks.

Murtha only knows what he knows because he is privy to information that is the product of this investigation. He might talk a good game, but right now, he doesn't know any more than that. I'm not sure how things work where you're from, but here we generally give people the benefit of the doubt, and you're generally innocent until proven guilty. We extend this right to thieves, pedophiles, and murderers. Why do our troops not deserve that same extension of rights?

Murtha is screaming "guilty, guilty!" before these men even have their day in court, hell, before they're even formally charged!!! That's ridiculous on his part, and irresponsible.


over an issue that hasn't even been resolved yet

Isn't this what he's trying to do, though? Help resolve the issue at hand? How do you expect this to be resolved if no one knows about it yet, even without the 'proof'? It's an eye-opener to what's going on.

And what exactly is going on, fuzzbot? Right, right.....American genocide in Iraq. You of course negleted to comment on Lt. Ilario Pantano. would it be ok with you if men and women were wrongfully accused of something....on the fucking House floor no less?

Murtha isn't "resolving" a damn thing, because he doesn't really know the entirety of what happened. What he did was a political gesture, and it may cost American and Iraqi lives.


Is this seriously all that you're worried about? Smearing the U.S? People are dying here. Innocent people. From both sides. FOR NO REASON. And you're worried that the U.S will be "smeared." Oh poor soldiers, they're witnessing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people for no cause at all! Not even democracy is worth that many lives. Not Iraqi lives, not American lives.

Smearing people for something they didn't do is wrong, right fuzzbot? What if these men didn't do what they've been accused of? oh, but they must've, right? I mean, look at what's going on, Americans are raping and killing every day, drinking the blood of small children and such.

Still waiting on that video link, btw.



I think if these men are actually indicted and convicted, they will be punished in accordance with the law.

I think otherwise, but we'll see.

Of course you don't think so, because you hate the Bush administration, and think the U.$.A. wants to take over the world. Apparently, in your world, the only way to truly achieve justice is to quickly condemn someone for something, and to hell with the law and due process.


Then what are you doing in Iraq, walking around with guns smiling at kids and passing out lollypops? Yeah, it's Christmas for the Iraqis every fucking day, huh? That's what all the complaints are about. That's why soldiers are being traumatized for the shit they did. That's why the citizens are complaining that there isn't enough seats for women and children at Iraqi hospitals. Yeah, they sure as hell are doing a decent job in Iraq, I just don't have any idea why they keep giving them more and more ammunition if they don't use it at all! No idea why! Maybe it's for the fire works! Yeah, that'd make the kids reallllly happy! 'Cause that's what America's there for! TO KEEP US HAPPY. PRAISE THE LORD. CONDI RICE MAKES CHILDREN SMILE. WRITE THAT DOWN.

Well, for starters, please take your meds next time befoe you respond, ok? Thanks.

I really hoped this wouldn't become a "well shit, this is why America should leave" thread, but since that's your real angle anyway, we might as well go there.

There are some big picture things that are certainly better in Iraq. Some obvious ones, a brutal dictator has been removed from power. The Iraqi people, for the first time ever, are taking part in the deliberative and democratic process in their country. Bitter rivals, namely Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis, are actually negotiating in the same room with each other, attempting to build something that's virtually unheard of in the middle east. Leaders of these various factions, with some notable bumps in the road, have taken measures to condemn the behavior of their own tribes and sects. The news of the pending civil war in Iraq has been greatly exaggerated.

There are also some more specific, bread & butter type things I could mention. Luckily, the Brookings Institute recently compiled an index on the status of occupied Iraq. They are a well respected, non-partisan think-tank based in Washington (if anything, they lean on the liberal side). I'd recommend reading the entire study. You can do that here (http://www.brook.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index.pdf). I won't list everything, and it certainly isn't all sunny, but here's a few things:

* Per Capita GDP (USD) for 2005 is forecast to increase from the previous year to $1,051. In 2002 it was $802.

* Increases in GDP for the next five years: 16.8, 13.6, 12.5, 7.8, and 7.2.

* On an index of political freedom for countries in the Middle East, Iraq now ranks fourth, just below Israel, Lebanon, and Morocco.

* Electrical output is almost at the pre-war level of 3,958 megawatts. April's production was 3,600 megawatts. In May of 2003, production was only 500 megawatts. The goal is to reach 6,000 megawatts, and was originally expected to be met in 2004.

* The unemployment rate in June of 2003 was 50-60%, and in April of this year it had dropped to 25-40%.

* The number of U.S. military wounded has declined significantly from a high of 1,397 in November 2004 to 430 in April of this year.

* As of December 2005, countries other than the U.S., plus the World Bank and IMF, have pledged almost $14 billion in reconstruction aid to Iraq.

* Significant progress has also been made towards the rule of law. In May 2003 there were no trained judges, but as of October 2005 there were 351.

* In May of 2003, Iraqi Security Forces were estimated at between 7,000-9,000. They numbered 250,500 in March of this year.

* As of January 2006, 64% of Iraqis polled said that the country was headed in the right direction.

* Also as of January 2006, 77% said that removing Saddam Hussein was the right thing to do.

If the question is was the U.S. invasion an overall positive or negative for the future of Iraq, than the answer must be yes, it is positive, and can only get better.


Al Qaeda targets civilians.

And who the flying fuck does American soldiers target? 'SUSPECTS?' Does over 200,000 dead fucking ring a bell? Over 200,000 in TWO YEARS, that many suspects? Obviously the death toll is much higher now. But innocent people are dying in the hands of American soldiers everywhere, including Afghanistan. Soldiers went there by choice. Citizens are there in their own countries being taken out, one by one.

Just curious, but where are you getting your numbers from?

Yes, yes, Americans are targeting citizens "one by one" there. :rolleyes We're just like Al Qaeda, you're absolutely right.



Like I said, stop worrying about how the Arabs will react and start worrying about what your kids are doing in Iraq.

What we're doing is rebuilding a country that has known nothing but totalitarianism, while at the same time fighting people who preach hate, anti-semitism, and murder. We do this, with little support from the other Arab regimes, who either encourage it in their classrooms, or who are too fucking cowardly to do a thing about it.


Like Burbank said, people are killing people. Not Americans killing Iraqis, not vice versa, it's a jungle. And by the time America leaves, it will be a hole full of blood, with dead bodies floating around like they didn't matter.

I think you're absolutely wrong, and the proof doesn't support your argument.


Do you honestly think they give a shit about democracy here? Nothing is worth that many lives. No political ideology. No government. No religion. NOTHING.

Every subsequent election in Iraq has proven you wrong. I know you'd like to see nothing but absolute failure n Iraq, but I think the people of Iraq will prove you wrong.


DEMOCRACY DOESN'T WORK PROPERLY IN THE MIDDLE EAST. BECAUSE UNEMPLOYMENT AND UNEDUCATION RATES ARE HUGE. BECAUSE TRIBALISM EXISTS. BECAUSE RELIGIOUS CONFLICTS EXIST. BECAUSE DEMOCRACY WOULD MEAN CIVIL WAR.

I'M SORRY, I WASN'T AWARE WE WERE TALKING ABOUT A BUNCH OF PRIMATES, THANKS FOR THE CLARIFICATION THOUGH.

You know how you improve education? You educate women, and while you're at it, you stop feeding them anti-semetic, anti-American, revisionist bullshit printed up by some Wahabist in Saudi Arabia.

Other modern democracies, including ours, had regional tensions, religious conflict, and "tribal" loyalties. We luckily had men like James Madison and John Locke to help us through that, but this again would require that the REST of the Arab world stopped raising their people to be ignorant and hateful. This plays a specific role of importance regarding Iraq, since these terrorists and murderers are crossing the border to come aid the so-called insurgecy (according to that same Brookings study, the breakdown on foreign fighters caught in Iraq looks something like Algeria at 20%, with Syria and Yemen, at 18% and 17%, respectively).

If you know anything about Arab history you should understand this very well. Take Palestine as an example. Their democracy made them self-destructive.

Their democracy can still work. It's up to Hamas to make that decision now, whether they wish to prosper and build a state, or perish.


Terrorists are everybody's enemies, that's it, no one single "nation." That, to me, is racism or unnecessary hatred that promotes nationalism (the worst kind, in my case that would be the pan-Arabism.)

I'd love to agree with you here, but unfortunately there are far too many endemic problems throughout the middle east that not only seem to tolerate terrorism, but to encourage it as well.

[Kulturkampf]

It is criminal. It is not political. These people need to be prosecuted and put into jail.

'Nuff said.

[Abcdxxxx]

Like Kevin, I too believe in due process, and hold faith that America's old fuddy duddy concept of "innocent before proven guilty" is a lot more democratic then any assumed guilt being assigned out of bias, or worse, a partisan outrage. In hindsight we've learned it's premature to call a pres conference and make accusations. The damage is done, because either way, this is one more story to toss into the ludicrous rumors and conspiracy pile that feeds the flames, and indoctrinates Arab culture with hate. You know, that kind of hate that can't differentiate between Al Qaeda, and the US Marines, let alone cartoons and blasphemy. Logically, it would suit all parties involved to investigate and reach fact filled conclusions rather then use deductive reasoning to form a judgement....I guess that idea sounds kooky in a land of dictatorships, petty riots, and faux-Democracis.

Take Palestine as an example. Their democracy made them self-destructive.

If you mean the current Palestinian territories, they were self destructive long before Democratic elections. Maybe you're right though, maybe all the Arabs living under democracies through out the world go to sleep at nght wrestling with self-destructive urges. You're worse then Fox News. Israel on the other hand has become done pretty okay, with cities like Yaffa exercising their Democratic rights with exceptional growth.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Remember that political agenda I was referencing? Yeah, well you're it. You were right to admit your biases, but that doesn't necessarily make you right. I thought we were talking about the current investigation, but you seem to be talking about the evil American imperialist empire. I'd prefer to sit at the grownups table, thanks.

How predictable. Maybe if I was a woman you'd send me to the kitchen because right now it's the MEN TALKING. "You're right and I'm wrong and to top it all off you're being childish!"

What is the matter with you that you can't read that post any other way than "it's the evil Americans!" I mean how many times do I have to stress the fact that this is what I believe and it may have to do with where I am, it doesn't mean I THINK like everybody else here. It doesn't mean I'm blaming all our ills on the evil American empire. If you want anybody to grow up may I suggest you as the first candidate? MAY I? HELLO? ARE YOU THERE?

What I said, specifically and many times is this:

Murtha is right to go on with this because I think he knows something none of us know (OOPS EXCEPT FOR YOU, YOU KNOW EVERYTHING.) I never said this is a great opportunity to oust Americans and their evilness (there's evil everywhere, but it's never wrong to hide it or take baby steps to reveal things when they need to be revealed.) I don't think he's going to make these serious accusations if he didn't have the right amount of evidence. If it was just a citizen that was claiming these things, I wouldn't believe it right away, but Murtha's position gives me reason to. I don't trust everything the guy says but I know that this is a serious step he's taking, and I don't think he'd take it if he didn't know what he was doing at all.

He might talk a good game, but right now, he doesn't know any more than that. I'm not sure how things work where you're from, but here we generally give people the benefit of the doubt, and you're generally innocent until proven guilty.
Yeah you're innocent until proven guilty, and these people weren't proven guilty yet, so what the heck are you all worried about? People aren't going to believe it until the proof is on the table, Murtah's just working up towards that. He's not saying 'A=B', he's saying 'A=B if I was right about C, and we'll find out soon but I have a lot of reasons to not believe otherwise. That's why I'm doing this.'

And what exactly is going on, fuzzbot? Right, right.....American genocide in Iraq.
Is the rolleye smilie still here?

I never said it was as bad as genocide. I said a lot of people are dying in the hands of Americans just like a lot of Americans are dying in the hands of these "evil insurgents" who make you shit your pants, because it's fucking war. And Americans aren't going to be tapdancing to entertain Iraqis during war. They are going to be killing them, and innocent people are dying because of it. Okay? Quit it with the 'Americans are evil!' assumptions that you keep making about my views regarding this matter.

Still waiting on that video link, btw.
Wow thanks for not reading anything I said before. I told you I only found the article in Arabic and not the video itself that's why we can rule this out from the discussion. Is that okay with you, Sir? Is it? HELLO? ARE YOU THERE?

I mean, look at what's going on, Americans are raping and killing every day, drinking the blood of small children and such.

No, no, Americans are there to serve cookies and ice cream for anyone caught in this war without a choice.

Of course you don't think so, because you hate the Bush administration, and think the U.$.A. wants to take over the world.
No. I don't think the U.S is trying to take over the world. I never implied that. I don't trust the Bush administration, I don't disagree with everything it does just because I "hate it." You misunderstood everything I was trying to say. If I thought the U.S was taking over the world I wouldn't be attending an American college, and I wouldn't befriend Americans because they're part of the 'evil process.' Okay? This has nothing to do with anything about that. I said that not because of what you claim I believe in (you couldn't be further from the truth, by the way) but because of the 2-month charges given to those torturing and humiliating people at Abu Ghraib.

Well, for starters, please take your meds next time befoe you respond, ok? Thanks.
Oh no, Kevin seems to think I'm insane! After claiming that I hate America! Poor Kevin! Someone have the decency to hug and comfort the fuck out of him! Say supporting, loving words to him!

* Also as of January 2006, 77% said that removing Saddam Hussein was the right thing to do.
Yes, REMOVING SADDAM WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Barging in there and killing people for no apparent reason isn't the right thing to do, however. 80% or so of Fallujans were happy that the U.S was there, and that is BEFORE they fucking wiped out the village, where a good 35% of these people were announced dead and the others seriously injured.... note: this was after Saddam's rule. So Saddam wasn't the one who killed them. It was your boys and girls who did.

Haven't you read any of the articles about why most women think they are no better off now than during Saddam's rule? (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0222-08.htm)

Here's another one of many examples:
'I was working up until four days before the Americans came into Baghdad,' she tells me. 'Then I stayed in my house until the Americans came. When I saw them I cried, because I had conflicting emotions exploding inside me. We were under a kind of occupation by Saddam. I felt we were under a different kind of occupation now.
- Amal al-Mudarris, who works for the radio in Baghdad.

Most of the people who "voted" or were included in your statistics are now included here:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/press/pr13.php

Bitter rivals, namely Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis, are actually negotiating in the same room with each other, attempting to build something that's virtually unheard of in the middle east.
Oh yeah, and who's to thank for that, the Americans? If anything, these people are plotting against the Americans for what they did (and I don't approve of that, but this is always what it comes down to.) There are many Sunni and Shiite leaders who want their little "revenge," and I think it doesn't have much to do with 'Americans are evil' which you seem to blame everything on but the 'I've seen enough damage done here.'

Yes, yes, Americans are targeting citizens "one by one" there.
Oh so you're killing them by the masses? Yeah that sure sounds better!

What we're doing is rebuilding a country that has known nothing but totalitarianism, while at the same time fighting people who preach hate, anti-semitism, and murder.
LOL.

I think you're absolutely wrong, and the proof doesn't support your argument.
Yeah the innocent civilians dying are dying for a worthy cause right? YAY DEMOCRACY YAYA YAY YAY AYYA YOU ARE SO WORTH IT! Maybe by the end of the war the 4 people left can vote on who has the best hairdo and then discuss the reasons for their decisions.

Every subsequent election in Iraq has proven you wrong. I know you'd like to see nothing but absolute failure n Iraq, but I think the people of Iraq will prove you wrong.
That is total fucking bullshit. Many Iraqis believed that the votes were being played with. Votings and being invovled in fucking "polls" isn't even true democracy. Why do you think the civil war took place, because their "democratic" strategies were working? I told you. Democracy means civil war. There's a civil war in Palestine and a civil war in Iraq, both took place AFTER THEY DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED THEIR LEADERS.

You know how you improve education? You educate women, and while you're at it, you stop feeding them anti-semetic, anti-American, revisionist bullshit printed up by some Wahabist in Saudi Arabia.

Women are being educated where it's accepted to. We have female Ministers in Bahrain which has never happened before in the Middle East, and guess what? We didn't even have to go to war with America for it! But if you want to take the credit, GO AHEAD! Many women from many different parts of the Arab world (with the exception of retarded Saudi) are being educated abroad in prestigious schools, which is paid for by the governments. I'm not saying the governments are making an amazing job at education because I know they're not, but the people are definitely seeing the long-term benefits of education and that's why a lot of people (especially women) are excelling academically.

Other modern democracies, including ours, had regional tensions, religious conflict, and "tribal" loyalties. We luckily had men like James Madison and John Locke to help us through that
We have men just as strong, but unfortunately instead of their suggested ideas being welcomed it caused their death. If you express your conterversial political ideas here, you get detained for an unspecified amount of time until the government decides what to do with you, usually it's "exile."

America and the whole 'West' is a bystander to everything going on in the Middle East. You know what raped the Iraqi culture? Saddam. You know what's raping the status of women in the Middle East? Things like Iran's Islamic parties and Saudi's King (who recently banned images of women in the press.) I don't blame all our ills on America because I know it all traces itself back to bad leadership and censorship within the sphere of the media. We were falling as a civilization before America could even hope to play the role of a global administrator, so much to your dismay I don't think America is evil or is trying to spread itself. I welcome their help with opened arms but not when it's by military intervention.

Their democracy can still work. It's up to Hamas to make that decision now,
Palestinians aren't educated.

Palestinians there would want war because they can't sit on their asses after watching the bloodshed that went on for half a century. You're crazy if you think people are going to remain sane, accepting, and unbiased after that.

Why do you think Hamas was chosen? It can't work right now because Hamas is suffering from a war within their own little administration. Some people want to fight through bombs and suicide attacks while others feel that there might be a chance for negotiations. So you can't say 'Hamas can make that decision,' Hamas is an illigitimate and terrorist-supporting government that isn't willing to move forward. They're just as bad as the evil insurgents you kept bringing up.

there are far too many endemic problems throughout the middle east that not only seem to tolerate terrorism, but to encourage it as well.
Oh yeah? List them.

I have lived in the Middle East all of my life, not just Bahrain. Never have I encountered anyone who supports terrorism. Never. I've been schooled here, and never have I been taught that terrorism is right, it was always the other way around.

A lot of newspapers that originate here call terrrorists "kafirs," meaning people who are damned to hell, so you can stop making assumptions.

I love how you say that few bad marines make up a small % and don't represent America's COURAGEOUS AND KIND-HEARTED fight for democracy, yet can't seem to apply the same theory to terrorists.

They don't represent popular Middle Eastern belief.

They don't represent Islam.

It's a well accepted fact here that they are disgusting mingers who are only doing this because they're mentally impaired and misled by the very few factors that promote or encourage terrorist beliefs. Like I said, I've even been to Saudi many times and while I expected otherwise, almost everyone I met was anti-terrorism. SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

If you mean the current Palestinian territories, they were self destructive long before Democratic elections. Maybe you're right though, maybe all the Arabs living under democracies through out the world go to sleep at nght wrestling with self-destructive urges. You're worse then Fox News. Israel on the other hand has become done pretty okay, with cities like Yaffa exercising their Democratic rights with exceptional growth.
Hi my name is ABC and I'm a Jew and Israel rules your ass no question about it!

WHAT Arabs living under democracies? Fucking name ONE country that is being lead by COMPLETE democracy and is actually functioning without a problem. Just one. If you can't, this conversation is over.

Israelis aren't Arabs, genius, they are and have always been excluding from being Middle Eastern because of their official statement against that in 1948. When I talk about the Middle East, I don't include them, because their government is way different than ours. Furthermore, compare the education of fucking Israelis to the education of Arabs here. HUGE. DIFFERENCE.

So why does their democracy work? Because education plays a huge role, and without education here, you can fucking wave to the idea of democracy elsewhere in the Middle East.

When we turned into a 'semi-democratic' state, the first thing that happened in Bahrain was that we entered a series of civil wars. Because this is what happens when you leave the choice to those who don't have the education to act responsibly.

It's not fucking rocket science. The world is not all about the rainbows and candies where 'democracy' just solves everything. Freedom of CHOICE does NOT mean freedom of responsibility, and if you give most people here enough responsibility they refuse to take it. They can't think for what's best for them if they have been used to totalitarian rule all their lives. But the government here are loosening up day by day, political reforms were taking place in Kuwait during negotiations, and you know what happened when they tried to do it through democracy?

They went into fucking chaos.

And then they eliminated their parliament.

Yeah, so much for democracy, right?

So spare me your 'fox news!!1' idiocy. You have absolutely no idea about what democracy does to the Middle East.

[Abcdxxxx]

Thanks for reminding me. I'm a Jew. I'm sure that was important for you to note.

You realize how psychotic you're coming off, right? I guess we should expect that from an Arab trying to exist in a Democractic atmosphere while obtaining his American education. Are you fighting back the shakes right now? Any urge to break into civil war?


Israelis aren't Arabs, genius, they are and have always been excluding from being Middle Eastern because of their official statement against that in 1948.

Yes they're Arabs. They're Israeli Arabs, and they number in the millions. Nothing changes that accept maybe your own bias. Did Abdel Rahman Zuabi give up his right to be viewed as an Arab when he accepted a position in the Israeli Supreme Court? It's your issue if you think his citizenship status prohibits Arab-ness. He is an Israeli Arab.


When I talk about the Middle East, I don't include them, because their government is way different than ours. Furthermore, compare the education of fucking Israelis to the education of Arabs here. HUGE. DIFFERENCE.

Yeah, it's a Socialist Democracy, why bother including a case study about the closest, most relevant country in the region...after all ...they're Israelis, boooo hiiiiiissss. Why compare when you can pretend the Arabs of Nazareth, and Yaffa who enjoy many of the Democratic rights afforded them aren't Arabs at all. Certainly not Middle Eastern!

Palestinian have one of the highest rates of higher education per capita, in part due to the fallout of who they're located near, and supported by.

They can attend: An-Najah National University, Arab-American University in Jenin and earn a B.A. http://www.aauj.edu/, Birzeit University which was the first one, Al-Quds University, Al-Azhar University in Gaza, Palestine Polytechnic University, Hebron University or do what you did, and travel abroad for their education. Many do.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Okay, fuzzbot. Let's calm down. Less caps lock. I don't want to insult you, or get you all excited and screaming about McDonalds and stuff.

So let's cool down. Before I address some of your points, let me preface it all by saying that I in no way think all Arabs, and/or all muslims, are overwhelmingly anything. I generally believe that people are people, and most people just want to live their lives, feed their families, and have a roof over their heads. I also think that if offered, people would choose freedom of choice, freedom of religion, freedom of education, speech, and markets over the less attractive alternatives.

This is why I disagree with your assertion that Arabs simply can't "do" democracy. I think you're absolutely correct that invading a country and pointing a gun and yelling "democratize!" won't necessarily make immediate and effective change. However, I think the series of elections in Iraq have proven that an Arab country, one that has suffered for decades, has helped prove that Arabs indeed can do this. Now, you'll say the votes were tampered, it was corrupt, etc. etc. I think that isn't supported by much proof beyond hearsay, and even so, misses the big point. The U.S. once only allowed white, educated, property owning males to vote. The level of participation women and minorites already possess in this young Iraqi government is practically unheard of in the history of democracies. In approximately three years, Iraq has gone from a brutal dictatorship, to a young deomocracy struggling to deal with tribal, religious, and cultural differences.

Some critics of the process in iraq would like to believe that THIS is not how democracy is "done". It took the United States three versions of government (two tries at the Articles, then the standing constitution), and several years just to get the damn thing ratified. Delegates in Pennsylvania, in order to reach a quorum in their Philadelphia state house, literally kidnapped anti-federalists in order to ratify the U.S. constitution. Democracy isn't just hard, but it tends to be the only way.

Furthermore, the Bush doctrine (which is rather laughable in practice, but worth merit in theory) states that the best way to have a secure U.S. is to promote and encourage freedom around the globe. You made the McD's comment, but it's like Thomas Friedman says with his golden arches rule-- countries with a combination of free speech, free governments, and free markets don't go to war with each other. Administration after administration, Democrats and Republicans, supported tyrants, monarchies, and dictators throughout the middle east, all for the sake of stability and oil. We embraced the Sa'ud family, and coddled men like Saddam Hussein and the shaw of Iran.

Not only did freedom seem unlikely in the middle east, but it seemed more convenient if it were lacking in it. That however proved to be dangerous for us, and while we turned a blind eye and pretended that terrorism and extremism was only something Israel worried about, we ultimately paid for it on 9/11. So, while I opposed the invasion of Iraq, I supportour efforts there, and I believe we would be no more secure, nor would the majority of Iraqis be any better off, were we to withdraw now.


Murtha is right to go on with this because I think he knows something none of us know (OOPS EXCEPT FOR YOU, YOU KNOW EVERYTHING.) I never said this is a great opportunity to oust Americans and their evilness (there's evil everywhere, but it's never wrong to hide it or take baby steps to reveal things when they need to be revealed.) I don't think he's going to make these serious accusations if he didn't have the right amount of evidence. If it was just a citizen that was claiming these things, I wouldn't believe it right away, but Murtha's position gives me reason to.

Even if Murtha had some piece of information that nobody else had, which he doesn't, what would make it any more responsible to come out now, before these troops are even formally charged with anything? Like you said, men and women are going to die no matter what. So why the urgency to call out these presumed innocent people, at least until they're charged???

It's pretty simple. American politicians, ALL OF THEM, do things with political considerations in mind. Almost always. There's a reason Murtha is the guy that was sent onto the floor, and not Dennis Kucinich. This is how campaigns are crafted. You pick the right message, and then you pick the right messenger. Murtha, as he'll constantly remind everyone, has done a LOT for returning war vets. he has always been viewed as friend to the military. He's practically untouchable, and he scares the crap outof guys like Bush, Rumsfeld, and Cheney.

You're right, Murtha knows exactly what he's doing. He knows that the Democrats want to take back the House in a few months. Keep you're eye on it, b/c I guarantee you that Jack Murtha will be stumping for Democratsin toughdistricts this fall, reminding everyone that these horrible actions in iraq come "all the way from the top!"


Most of the people who "voted" or were included in your statistics are now included here:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/press/pr13.php

I can't account for the truthiness of "The Iraq Body Count project", but I think you're not looking at the big picture of the numbers.

The Brookings research I cited states that American casualties are at a low. However, the number of Iraqi casualties has in fact increased. Why? One reason is that Iraqis are actuallytaking a more active role in security, and are thus being targeted by insurgents (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2006-03-19-deaths-shift_x.htm).

This is of course horrible, butone clear reason for it is that Iraqis are showingmore investment in their own national security and stability.


That is total fucking bullshit. Many Iraqis believed that the votes were being played with. Votings and being invovled in fucking "polls" isn't even true democracy.

Ya know what's funny about this statement? Someone is actually asking average Iraqis what they thinkabout elections, and they are freely complaining about it. You think that would've happened three years ago? Not likely.

People complain about the vote here too, ya know. A lot of peopleare still convinced Bush somehow stole votes in Ohio. People complain about elections, particularly when they don't go there way.

there are far too many endemic problems throughout the middle east that not only seem to tolerate terrorism, but to encourage it as well.

Oh yeah? List them.

Better yet, I'll let you list them:

"We have men just as strong, but unfortunately instead of their suggested ideas being welcomed it caused their death. If you express your conterversial political ideas here, you get detained for an unspecified amount of time until the government decides what to do with you, usually it's "exile.""

"You know what's raping the status of women in the Middle East? Things like Iran's Islamic parties and Saudi's King (who recently banned images of women in the press.) I don't blame all our ills on America because I know it all traces itself back to bad leadership and censorship within the sphere of the media. We were falling as a civilization before America could even hope to play the role of a global administrator"

"Palestinians aren't educated."

"So you can't say 'Hamas can make that decision,' Hamas is an illigitimate and terrorist-supporting government that isn't willing to move forward. They're just as bad as the evil insurgents you kept bringing up."

On that last part, and the education point in general, where do you think these ignorant masses get their ideas? Who makes their textbooks (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901769.html). Who teaches them that "The apes are Jews, the people of the Sabbath; while the swine are the Christians"???

You said it yourself, some women are getting educated. You also pointed out that people in the middle east are generally kept ignorant.

I believe,as do others, that ignorance breeds intolerance. In the absence of real public schools, shitty schools using texts like those above, as well as madrassas, will take its place.

The regimes in the middle east create the conditions for terrorism, and the U.S. can no longer remain secure under those conditions.

I would love to hold hands with Arabs and persians and trade stuff, and hang out and shit. But they're not there yet. Perhaps middle eastern democracy looks less like something in the U.S., and more like something in Morocco or even Iran. I think even the latterhas internal pressures that will ultimately bust open the problems in their regime.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I guess we should expect that from an Arab trying to exist in a Democractic atmosphere while obtaining his American education.
By far the most retarded thing I've ever heard. What does an American education have anything to do with this?
You realize how psychotic you're coming off, right?
No more psychotic than your "Israel rocks, everything else doesn't, deal."
Any urge to break into civil war?

The civil wars here are between minorities, but judging from your opinions regarding the Middle East you wouldn't know that. Bahrain is part of Iran, by the way. Remember to mock me using Tehran's laws.

Israelis in general are NOT ARABS. That is why Israel is not part of the Arab League. That is why all Arab states at some point opposed the country's existence. But then again, you're that same guy who said Iran was part of the Arab League, and assumed that it, too, was an Arab country running by our same laws because you thought any country in the Persian Gulf belonged to Iran, which means you're mentally impaired. Everyone seems to be an Arab to you. You even tried to be one. What's the matter, jealous? :rolleyes

Consider this:

"Israeli Arabs comprise around 15% of the country's [Israelis] total number of citizens "

A huge percentage of the Palestinian population are currently living in extreme poverty. How do you expect them to gain this 'higher education' that you're speaking of?

"More than 60 percent of Palestinians are under 18, and 35 percent of the population, about 1 million people, are students."

Wow! Less than 50% of Palestinians are getting their education (half of which are small children) and that's supposed to be good or impressive?

and travel abroad for their education. Many do.
Most don't. Most can't afford to. Do you have any idea what POVERTY fucking means?

You think these people living on the streets, homeless or pisspoor in broken homes, can just walk into any University and say "I want to receive an education?" Do you think the lack of education has anything to do with lack of education facilities? No. The number of people attending universities and schools are low for reasons that are obvious.

By the way, it would help if you at least knew anything about the Universities you listed.

"Nablus' Al-Najah Universit's unique tone is determined by the students themselves, the vast majority of the whom support Palestinian terrorist organizations. Unlike universities elsewhere in the world, where peace marches are common, Al-Najah's students see the future in uncompromising armed struggle against Israel, including suicide attacks. "

It's also financially supported by several terrorist organizations, iincluding Hamas.

So you want these kids to enroll in this 'higher education' so they can kill themselves.

Brilliant.

Why didn't you suggest this earlier?

This is from The Guardian: (http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/worldwide/story/0,,754365,00.html)

"Israeli forces closed an administration building of a Palestinian university in Jerusalem this week, confiscating files, academic documents and computers. The order to close the building at Al-Quds University came from the minister of the interior security, Uzi Landou."

It was re-opened for several months, and then closed, and then re-opened, and then the students had a nasty fight and people were killed. What a great academic atmosphere.

More violence in Palestinian universities. (http://www.dailylobo.com/media/storage/paper344/news/2001/10/09/News/Violence.Erupts.At.Palestinian.University-114029.shtml?norewrite200605291831&sourcedomain=www.dailylobo.com)

Here's more:

For example, it was Al-Kutlah Al-Islamiyyah (Hamas) at the Al-Najah University that created the horrific celebration of the 2001 Sbarro Pizza bombing by building a mock pizza parlor and decorating the walls and tables with images of pizza and body parts.

Terrorists who have come directly from PA university activity include:

Mahmud Shuraytakh: Chairman of Al-Kutlah Al-Islamiyyah (Hamas) and of the Student Council at Bir Zeit University. Planned a suicide attack on a bus in Tel Aviv Sept. 19, 2002, in which six Israelis were murdered and 71 injured.

....building of a school in Jenin named after the terrorist head of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), Abu Ali Mustafa, who was responsible for planning and executing numerous terror bombings in Israel.

"In 2003, USAID funded projects in Palestinian universities, including the Arab American University in Jenin, which sponsored numerous anti-American and terrorist-supporting rallies last year. One event included “blessings” to those fighting American soldiers in Iraq."

Is THIS your idea of education? It's fucking disgusting. It's terrorism. These people are receiving NO formal education, whatsoever.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Okay, fuzzbot. Let's calm down. Less caps lock. I don't want to insult you, or get you all excited and screaming about McDonalds and stuff.

Wow, out of everything I said he remembers the one comment I made about McDonald's! This guy's a pro!
So let's cool down.
I can cool down if you stop making boring assumptions about my opinions even though I expressed the complete opposite. I don't like it when people dismiss my opinions as "you just think we're stupid fat and evil yadayday" merely because of my location or what have you. I didn't even imply the above. I've heard many Americans here make that same argument, and you never attacked them with these weird generalizations, which I found particularly offensive.

This is why I disagree with your assertion that Arabs simply can't "do" democracy.
That's not what I was trying to say.

We can do democracy. Democracy has a chance of working very well, but we can't do this:

Totalitarianism - Democracy.

Imagine going from oppression, to not having the freedom to voice your opinion, to being detained for being politically active in any way, to being discriminated against for having different religious beliefs, etc, to full democracy. It simply doesn't work, people aren't used to it. Believe it or not, there are some people here who actually support the monarchies and the way they oppress the citizens. It's retarded, but it happens a lot. Not everyone is going to be a reasonable thinker.

Now, you'll say the votes were tampered, it was corrupt, etc. etc.
This happens in every other country ruled by democratic values. America is also one example - remember what happened when Bush was re-elected?

The level of participation women and minorites already possess in this young Iraqi government is practically unheard of in the history of democracies
The right to vote for women existed during Saddam's rule too. We went from being a monarchy to giving the vote to women, minorities, and foreign 'citizens' of Bahrain (meaning those who are Bahraini by marriage, or those who immigrated and then got their citizenship for living here for a certain number of years and knowing the language.) I never heard this be 'praised' by anyone who seems to be dumbfounded by democracy in the Middle East.

Iraq has gone from a brutal dictatorship, to a young deomocracy struggling to deal with tribal, religious, and cultural differences.

Happened in Bahrain too, without the help of America, so I hope Americans aren't going to take full credit for this. It's the Iraqis working together, not the Americans walking around with poll sheets begging people to get involved.

You made the McD's comment
It was meant to be sarcastic. It has nothing to do with America trying to take over the world through it. I mentioned it for the 'happy' meal, not anything else. I have nothing against McDonald's multiplying itself like insects - it's a business. Nothing much more than that.

supported tyrants, monarchies, and dictators throughout the middle east, all for the sake of stability
Whose stabilities? America never did anything about the hidden wars of the Middle East. Yemen went to war with Saudi Arabia a couple of times. Domestic terrorism is a huge problem in Saudi Arabia. When Iran went to war with Iraq, the U.S gave them both arms, what is that about? Stability? You give people weapons to ensure stability?

We embraced the Sa'ud family
Nothing to be proud about - the Saudi family is responsible for crimes that are as bad as Saddam. They brutally tortured and publicly executed many people merely for questioning the Muslim faith, and killed any woman before she could have the chance to defend herself against cases such as rape. They forbid women from doing the simplest tasks - from driving to being political activists. They harrass all politicians and silence them, mostly through death. And the U.S's government embraces them? What for? Their oil?

Not only did freedom seem unlikely in the middle east
It is still unlikely. Iraq is FAR from being free, so is any other country in the Middle East with the exception of ABC's favourite country on Earth - Israel.

but it seemed more convenient if it were lacking in it.
Government don't want freedom. Freedom makes it harder for them to socially control us, which is what they are currently doing.

pretended that terrorism and extremism was only something Israel worried about
There are Israeli terrorists too, you know, and they've done hideous things in Palestine, just like terrorists from Palestine did hideous things in Israel. The point is this: We are the ones suffering from the most terrorist and extremist attacks. Terrorists take away our lives, extremists take away our rights. Believe me, when I say "I worry about terrorism" I worry because I have a 35% chance of being a victim of violence whenever I leave the house, when you probably have less than 1%. So who are the REAL victims of terrorists here? We, the ones without any of the media coverage, the ones who went through things that cost more lives than the American lives lost in 9/11, or you, the ones who lost several thousand due to terrorist attacks?

Terrorism is a problem within Islam, not CAUSED by Islam, but amongst Muslims who misinterpret the religion and use it as an excuse. It's the best justification they can find. So here, again, I'm not blaming the West for anything. I don't deny that Islam has its problems.

So why the urgency to call out these presumed innocent people, at least until they're charged???

In order to stop them from doing this now instead of waiting another 6 months, where the investigations are going to take place. 6 months can do a lot of damage if these people are still roaming around freely.

People complain about the vote here too, ya know. A lot of peopleare still convinced Bush somehow stole votes in Ohio. People complain about elections, particularly when they don't go there way.
Yeah, but are people in Ohio Iraqis? Are they going to react like people from Ohio who lived in a democracy all their lives, free of Saddam and free of this new occupation? Are they going to react like they had an education? What do you think education meant under Saddam? Most people had no fucking clue about anything. They lacked general knowledge. With the violence and bloodshed they see everyday, don't expect anyone to act civilly. Don't expect anyone to go to a paper and write something instead of asking one of the insurgents for a bomb so they can blow themselves up in the nearest jeep they can find. This is what they've been taught to believe.

"We have men just as strong, but unfortunately instead of their suggested ideas being welcomed it caused their death. If you express your conterversial political ideas here, you get detained for an unspecified amount of time until the government decides what to do with you, usually it's "exile.""
That, in no way, supports or encourages terrorism. In no way. It is people being silenced. That isn't terrorism. That is oppression.

"You know what's raping the status of women in the Middle East? Things like Iran's Islamic parties and Saudi's King (who recently banned images of women in the press.)
How does banning women from doing anything supporting terrorism? Again, this is oppression. You seem to be utterly confused.

"Palestinians aren't educated."
That is why they elected Hamas, a terrorist organization. A lot of people from America are not properly educated. Does that make them terrorists?

Are you saying that uneducation in general, then, breeds terrorism? Wrong.

We have a fair amount of povery and uneducated people here. None of them are terrorists.

"So you can't say 'Hamas can make that decision,' Hamas is an illigitimate and terrorist-supporting government that isn't willing to move forward. They're just as bad as the evil insurgents you kept bringing up."
Is Palestine all you think of when you think about the Middle East? That's pretty sad. There are many other countries like Qatar, the UAE, Kuwait to a large extent, that have HUGE supporting centers against terrorism. Yemen, ironically, has joined the war against terror and its fighting its own terrorists in the country. A lot of countries in the Middle East teach its own citizens that terrorism is wrong, but rebelling against the government is also wrong (the 2nd one I don't agree with, unless it's by violent means.)

Therefore, you again assumed things I didn't even IMPLY in any of the things I said. Terrorism is linked to MIS-education, not NO education. The NO education is a reason why you shouldn't give the uneducated people the vote when they have no idea what the predictments may be. That's why the democratic elections were failures.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

We can do democracy. Democracy has a chance of working very well, but we can't do this:

Totalitarianism - Democracy.

Imagine going from oppression, to not having the freedom to voice your opinion, to being detained for being politically active in any way, to being discriminated against for having different religious beliefs, etc, to full democracy. It simply doesn't work, people aren't used to it.

Israelis did an alright job of it.

I'm not trying to imply that any of this will be easy, nor do I want the U.S. to invade every country in the middle east. I think there are other ways to liberlize countries, many of them far, far away from dropping bombs.

But we are in Iraq now, and to abandon them now would be irresponsible on our part.

Believe it or not, there are some people here who actually support the monarchies and the way they oppress the citizens. It's retarded, but it happens a lot. Not everyone is going to be a reasonable thinker.

I don't doubt it, and those voices need to be heard and respected in a deliberative process.

I hate to beat a dead horse here, butI dunno, what if Palestinians stopped reading Mein kampf (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2002%2F03%2F19%2Fnmein19. xml), and started reading some Mill and Locke? I'm sure there's a ton of more modern Arab scholars who espouse the same things. Maybe if the regimes stopped throwing them in jail...? I dunno.

Now, you'll say the votes were tampered, it was corrupt, etc. etc.

This happens in every other country ruled by democratic values. America is also one example - remember what happened when Bush was re-elected?

Precisely, which is why it's perfectly normal in Iraq, and should notbeused as a knock against their young democracy.

The right to vote for women existed during Saddam's rule too. We went from being a monarchy to giving the vote to women, minorities, and foreign 'citizens' of Bahrain (meaning those who are Bahraini by marriage, or those who immigrated and then got their citizenship for living here for a certain number of years and knowing the language.) I never heard this be 'praised' by anyone who seems to be dumbfounded by democracy in the Middle East.

Do you honestly think that Saddam's faux-democracy deserved praise? Can you honestly not see the difference in parading people out for a fake vote, and the genuinely participatory elections that have gone on since his ouster?


Iraq has gone from a brutal dictatorship, to a young deomocracy struggling to deal with tribal, religious, and cultural differences.

Happened in Bahrain too, without the help of America, so I hope Americans aren't going to take full credit for this. It's the Iraqis working together, not the Americans walking around with poll sheets begging people to get involved.

I agree with you that we should all be inspired by what the Iraqis have managed to do. However, the U.S. played no small part in that, and was the catalyst behind it all. That should go without saying, but apparently not in your case....

Whose stabilities? America never did anything about the hidden wars of the Middle East. Yemen went to war with Saudi Arabia a couple of times. Domestic terrorism is a huge problem in Saudi Arabia. When Iran went to war with Iraq, the U.S gave them both arms, what is that about? Stability? You give people weapons to ensure stability?

No, we were playing sides. We saw the Islamic regime, and the seemingly secular dictatorship, and chose the latter.

It was wrong, which is why we need to strive for consistency, rely less on the realist school of thought, and aid liberalism in the middle east.

We embraced the Sa'ud family

Nothing to be proud about - the Saudi family is responsible for crimes that are as bad as Saddam. They brutally tortured and publicly executed many people merely for questioning the Muslim faith, and killed any woman before she could have the chance to defend herself against cases such as rape. They forbid women from doing the simplest tasks - from driving to being political activists. They harrass all politicians and silence them, mostly through death. And the U.S's government embraces them? What for? Their oil?

I wasn't bragging, I was pointing out the error in our ways. Slow it down, slugger.


In order to stop them from doing this now instead of waiting another 6 months, where the investigations are going to take place. 6 months can do a lot of damage if these people are still roaming around freely.

okay, let's go around and around. This is pointless.

NOBODY HAS EVEN BEEN CHARGED WITH ANYTHING YET. TO ASSUMe THAT AMERICANS HAVE DONE SOMETHING WRONG IS NOT YET SUPPORTED BY ANY CONCLUSIVE FACTS, AND IS REALLY JUST BEING DRIVEN BY YOUR OWN BIASES.

Let's talk when real people are actually charged with some real crimes, k?


"Palestinians aren't educated."

That is why they elected Hamas, a terrorist organization. A lot of people from America are not properly educated. Does that make them terrorists?

Are you saying that uneducation in general, then, breeds terrorism? Wrong.

I'm not saying a lack of education causes terrorism, but it's a big part of it. Osama is quiteintelligent, but you don't see him strapping a bomb to his ass, do you?

Oppression plays a big part in breeding terrorism. Hamas, which you acknowledge is a terrorist organization, is SUPPORTED by Iran! Hezbollah, another terrorist group, is supported by these same oppressie regimes.

I think this is pointless. I mean, if we can't agree that radical Islam is a product of rotten middle eastern regimes, than there is no point to continue in my mind. We're clearly just too far away from each other on this, so there's no point.

Let me know if you'd like to talk about Jack Murtha.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I hate to beat a dead horse here, butI dunno, what if Palestinians stopped reading Mein kampf, and started reading some Mill and Locke? I'm sure there's a ton of more modern Arab scholars who espouse the same things. Maybe if the regimes stopped throwing them in jail...?

Yes, that is what I was getting at.
Do you honestly think that Saddam's faux-democracy deserved praise? Can you honestly not see the difference in parading people out for a fake vote, and the genuinely participatory elections that have gone on since his ouster?
Not at all, he received 99% of the votes because he killed the 1% who didn't vote for him. BUT - When Iran was celebrating 'democracy' Rumsfeld was somewhere complaining that the votes were a joke, and he cheated his way into victory. People CAN elect the wrong administration. And if another 'democracy' doesn't like it, it WILL accuse them of being faux-democracy too, and it may cause war.
However, the U.S. played no small part in that, and was the catalyst behind it all. That should go without saying, but apparently not in your case....

No, I agree that this wouldn't be possible without America, I'm saying, though, that what's happening CURRENTLY is not America's effort, it's the effort of the Iraqi people and their willingness to listen to each other, for once in forever.
No, we were playing sides.
Playing sides here cost over 1 million lives.
okay, let's go around and around. This is pointless.

Yeah because we apparently don't agree. And you seem to be insisting on trying to change that.

You made your point, k?

I don't buy it, k?

I like Murtha, you think he's irresponsible and it MAY COST LIVES, k?

This won't change no matter how long this thread goes. So I suggest we may as well end it here.
TO ASSUMe THAT AMERICANS HAVE DONE SOMETHING WRONG IS NOT YET SUPPORTED BY ANY CONCLUSIVE FACTS, AND IS REALLY JUST BEING DRIVEN BY YOUR OWN BIASES.
Which I, unlike any of you, have admitted to having.
I'm not saying a lack of education causes terrorism, but it's a big part of it. Osama is quiteintelligent, but you don't see him strapping a bomb to his ass, do you?

No, he just makes videos from his cave telling others to do it.
Oppression plays a big part in breeding terrorism. Hamas, which you acknowledge is a terrorist organization, is SUPPORTED by Iran! Hezbollah, another terrorist group, is supported by these same oppressie regimes.

Terrorist groups in Bahrain are financially supported directly from Iran too. Though if I learned anything from the Shiite school I attended for a year, is that terrorism is wrong. Find the population of the entire Middle East and then calculate the number of terrorists thriving within it.

It's less than 10%, which speaks volumes.

I mean, if we can't agree that radical Islam is a product of rotten middle eastern regimes
How many rotten regimes are you talking about and in what ways are they rotten?

Because you seem to be talking about Palestine and Iran alone, which are only 2 countries of the many that are in the Middle East. Meaning: Most Middle Easterners are profoundly against terrorism. Take it from someone who actually lives there.

By the way, with over 20 churches in the Persian Gulf alone, that means radical Islam doesn't exist within the governments here. Terrorism is a problem caused by the few, and they make HUGE problems, but the organizations involve a small % of people. Seriously, just apply the same theory you use for the 'bad apple' marines here. It's the same thing.
Let me know if you'd like to talk about Jack Murtha.
You think he's irresponsible and silly for doing this, I think otherwise, I don't see either of us changing our opinions. So for the sake of both of our times, I suggest our discussion is over, unless you're ABC and enjoy repeating yourself throughout many pages.

[Abcdxxxx]

No bitch, I just enjoy trailing your leaky ass and pointing out the stains, because you have shit for brains.

The Central Bureau of Statistics did a study in November 2002 that put Israel's Arab population at 19%, and 82% of them are Muslims. The literacy rate among Arab females in Israel is 88%, where comparitively it's only 43% in Egypt. The UN released a Human Development report placing Palestinians 102nd out of 177 countries, ranking them a "medium human development" in educational attainment, life expectancy, and adjusted income, just 12 places below Jordan, and 1 behind Iran. It rated ahead of Syria, Morroco, Algeria, and Egypt.

So basically you're just another Arab pushing the stereotype that Palestinians are uneducated filthy hicks. Go figure, you can be aritculate, and educated while promoting a heavy dose of bigotry.... you're proof of it! Palestinians aren't uneducated, they're brainwashed with biased learning that teaches them to hate. There is a difference.

Al-Quds was shut down because Sari Nusseibeh was using his office as a Jerusalem sattelite for PLO/PA operations. There are an endless number of Professors running around Universities through out the world with ties to terror organizations. They are the most dominant voice in Middle Eastern studies on American college campuses. But are they unedcuated?

There are Israeli terrorists too, you know, and they've done hideous things in Palestine, just like terrorists from Palestine did hideous things in Israel.

That's baseless sensationalist bullshit. There are no Israelis that have acted "just like terrrorists from Palestine". We've had a few criminal lunatics, and the difference is they're put in jail, they see a trial for their crimes, and the groups deemed to be terrorists are illegal. In that last regard, Israel's been less then democracticby prohibiting their free speech, but your equivalism is bullshit. Even groups like Koch who simply made a platform about two state seperatism were outlawed, even though Arabs in the Knesset enjoy their right to call openly call for the destruction of Israel while sitting on it's government.

Anyway, the point is - you don't want a Democracy imposed on you any more then we want you to impose your standards for totalitarian bliss on American soldiers. They're innocent till proven guilty even on your soil.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

No bitch, I just enjoy trailing your leaky ass and pointing out the stains, because you have shit for brains.

That's wonderful coming from somebody who thinks Iranians are Arabs when they've been at war for centuries. Go back to grade school and teach yourself the basics, freak.
The Central Bureau of Statistics did a study in November 2002 that put Israel's Arab population at 19%,
WOW! I was 4% off! That still doesn't make Israelis Arabs, in fact you just refuted your own dumb argument. You said Israelis are Arabs, and then you said, "I meant, there are Israeli Arabs!" Not realizing that Israelis and Israeli Arabs are completely different things. It's like if I had been born in the States, I'd say, "I'm American," and then a dumbass like you would pop up and say "Yeah Americans are Arabs because you prove to be one and something like 15% of Americans are Arabs maybe that's 'cause we're all one in the same!"

Yeah, totally makes sense.

So basically you're just another Arab pushing the stereotype that Palestinians are uneducated filthy hicks.
I never said that, I said they are uneducated for reasons that were OBVIOUS, they are lead by a fucking terrorist group which they democratically chose. If they are educated, tell me, where are they getting that education if all of the schools you listed were reported for being corrupt?

Palestinians aren't uneducated, they're brainwashed with biased learning that teaches them to hate. There is a difference.

Terrorism is not education. If a school brainwashes people and teaches them to be ignorant, if anything, that is not receiving any education. They are better off living in the streets. If you're an idiot who supports terrorism, that's your own problem.

Plus, I said "formal" education, which also makes a difference.

Al-Quds was shut down
This is fucking hilarious.

First you'te telling me "they can learn at Al-Quds," then you're telling me (after a quick google search on your part) why it was shut down. Not from memory at all, but after poor research. If you knew about this you wouldn't have listed it under the places Palestinians can get their so-called education from.

Tell me, where you're from, is it normal for universities to shut down, re-open, shut down, re-open, and go through violent demonstrations every other week where people are being killed? Is that "education" for you? Would you even pay any attention to your studies in that kind of environment?

Besides, I never called Palestinians stupid. I never called them filthy. Most are decent people who are unfortunate enough to live under the extreme poverty I was talking about. That has nothing to do with how Palestinians are being portrayed in the media and everything to do with the true state of Palestine's population from stats to the comparison of living conditions alone.

There are an endless number of Professors running around Universities through out the world with ties to terror organizations
What's your point here? I never said Palestine's the only one with the issue.
That's baseless sensationalist bullshit. There are no Israelis that have acted "just like terrrorists from Palestine".
Really, then what the fuck do you call this?

IDF troops kill Palestinian woman in West Bank operation

By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent and News Agencies

Israel Defense Forces troops Monday morning killed a Palestinian woman during a raid on a suspected militant hideout in the West Bank city of Tul Karm, witnesses and medical sources said.

Soldiers from the Duvdevan elite unit surrounded a house where Iyad Abdullah, a senior Islamic Jihad militant, was hiding in and called on its occupants to come out. The troops spotted a figure moving inside the house and opened fire.

Some of the bullets penetrated the house, fatally wounding Eitef Zalat, in hear early fourties.

Abdullah was initially reported by Palestinian Police to be Zalat's son-in-law. Manal Ghanem, 22, Zalat's daughter later said that he was renting a flat from her family and was not a family relative.

Palestinian sources said Abdullah was arrested along with five other militants from the West Bank city of Hebron and from the Gaza Strip.

The IDF only confirmed Abdullah's arrest, adding it had launched an investigation into the incident. The IDF also expressed regret over any injury caused to innocent civilians.

Zalat's daughter, Ansam, told Reuters her mother was "hit in the head and taken to hospital." Doctors declared her dead. Ansam and one of her sisters also suffered wounds to the lower body.

The IDF arrested twenty wanted Palestinians in raids across the West Bank early Monday. An IDF force operating in the West Bank city of Nablus encountered two explosive devices, but no one was hurt in the incident.

IDF heavy artillery shelled Monday the northern Gaza Strip in response to a Qassam that landed south of Ashkelon on Sunday night.

What is this, then? Are you saying that Israelis don't act as bad as Palestinians at all? So now you're the one saying Palestinians are the 'filthy' ones in this conflict? There's terrorism coming from both sides. This isn't just murder.

Here's more from the Daily Times:
Israeli troops shot dead a Palestinian youth during a raid in the West Bank, according to Palestinian witnesses and hospital sources. They said that Mohammed al-Khutoub, 19, had been among a group of people throwing stones to protest a raid by Israeli forces in the West Bank city of Nablus. agencies


We've had a few criminal lunatics, and the difference is they're put in jail, they see a trial for their crimes, and the groups deemed to be terrorists are illegal
That is utter bullshit. So here's more:

Israeli Terrorist Kills 3 In Bus Shooting (http://www.atsnn.com/story/160244.html)

Israel Honors Jewish Terrorists Who Attacked America (http://www.davidduke.com/?p=272)

Israeli Terrorism doesn't make News (http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq22.html)

The Israeli Terrorist State and its Mossad Assassins (http://www.revisionisthistory.org/essay8.html)

Brutal Israeli Terrorism Subsidized by US (http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0815-02.htm)

Israeli terrorism, with resources and examples. (http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node.php?id=23)
the point is - you don't want a Democracy imposed on you
No.

Like I said, I'm not against democrcy, just as long as that democracy comes when we're ready. Right now, we're far from being so. And just as long as that democracy isn't forcebly enforced through weapons and mass murders.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

That is utter bullshit. So here's more:

Israeli Terrorist Kills 3 In Bus Shooting (http://www.atsnn.com/story/160244.html)

Israel Honors Jewish Terrorists Who Attacked America (http://www.davidduke.com/?p=272)

Israeli Terrorism doesn't make News (http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq22.html)

The Israeli Terrorist State and its Mossad Assassins (http://www.revisionisthistory.org/essay8.html)

Brutal Israeli Terrorism Subsidized by US (http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0815-02.htm)

Israeli terrorism, with resources and examples. (http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node.php?id=23)

I am done with this conversation, and I'm not interested in getting in the way of the pending lovefest, but I have to call into question the sources you've thrown out in order to prove that there's rampant Israeli terrorism.

A blatantly pro-palestinian website, with the "resources" you mentioned being a blog. Common Dreams, no fan of Israel, linking a story from the Madison Capital Times. Now maybe you're not familiar, but having briefly lived there, I know that the MCT is a left-wing rag that gets given out for free in Madison. Everything they tend to lean on the anti-american, anti-Israeli side. And last but not least......David Duke's website. That about says it all.

[Abcdxxxx]

It's no wonder David Duke was such a hit on the Bahrain lecture circuit. If Fuzzbot wants to post a flood of anti-semitic links, and one story about the arrest of a Sr. Islamic Jihad member that resulted in one civilian casualty as the best examples of "jewish terrorism" ...well...he might be a little too stereotypical for your own good. Nice job drowning out the one relatively legit example, condemned by the Israeli PM who called it "a reprehensible act of a bloodthirsty Jewish terrorist who sought to attack innocent Israeli citizens." http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/08/04/bus.shooting/ Notice the victims were regarded as Israelis regardless of their religion. I know that confuses you since you were raised in virtual segragation, but we'll get to that in a moment.

But okay, since you swear Israelis commit acts of terrorism, the "same as the Palestinians" ....where are the Jewish martyr trading cards, posters & videos, how much did the families get paid as a reward, where are the parades and dancing on rooftops, where is the pressure on the media to call them freedom fighters, where are the Jewish children sucide bomber camps, where are the Jews assembling a 6 man team, stealing a car, acquiring the explosives and detonator, scoping out a civlian target, finding a safe house, recruiting a bomber, disguising themselves as religious men, setting it off, making a video, claiming responsibility and threatening to do it again?


Not realizing that Israelis and Israeli Arabs are completely different things.

There's no difference. Israeli Arabs are every bit as Israeli as any other citizen. I have israeli citizenship. So does Rana Raslan, a former Miss Israel who said "I am totally Israeli, and I do not think about whether I am an Arab or a Jew. They wanted a beauty queen, not a political queen." http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1:23666652/For+first+time,+Israeli+Arab+is+given+Miss+Israel+ crown.html?refid=SEO

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

There's no difference. Israeli Arabs are every bit as Israeli as any other citizen. I have israeli citizenship. So does Rana Raslan, a former Miss Israel who said "I am totally Israeli, and I do not think about whether I am an Arab or a Jew. They wanted a beauty queen, not a political queen."
That was NOT what you said.

You said Israelis in general were Arab, idiot.

You didn't say Israeli Arabs (which make up the 'minority') existed. I know they're Israeli, but that was not the topic of discussion. Anyone who calls Israelis Arabs in general (precisely what you did) is an idiot.

Let me just remind you of this, in case you try to crawl out of it like a snake:

I said: "Israelis aren't Arabs, genius."
You said: "Yes they are."

They = Israelis. All of them. To you, they were ALL Israeli Arabs. After that, you felt a bit guilty for being stupid, so you did more "research" and said "oh wait, only a minority of the overall population conists of Israeli Arabs."

After I had said that to you in caps. Meaning, they're not Arabs. People do not view them as Arabs. They have a different language, a different culture, a different geography, a different history just like Iran (which you thought was also Arab.)

I mean, ABC, I really don't know what else to say to you. You have the knowledge of a kitten when it comes to the Middle East and its basics, and that's probably giving you too much credit.

anti-semitic links
Reuters is anti-semitic now? Wow. I love it when you ask me to give you proof, and I do, you just call them anti-semitic. Typical idiocy. And you're the same guy who tried to say that a Koran, a version translated by a Jew, was not biased at all.

Notice the victims were regarded as Israelis regardless of their religion
And the victims of Islamic terrorism are mostly Arabs, regardless of their religion. What is your point?

But okay, since you swear Israelis commit acts of terrorism, the "same as the Palestinians" ....
Does the IDF ring a bell to you?

Palestine has no legit army. Their army consists of terrorists. Many Israeli extremists merged into the IDF (I'll show you more of this later.)

A blatantly pro-palestinian website, with the "resources" you mentioned being a blog.
What? That isn't a blog. A blog is where it was featured in. The original article (if you bothered clicking on it and its citations) was written for a magazine based in Canada.

The article appeared in numerous magazines. When ABC and I had this same exact argument before, he posted all of his links from JihadWatch, which, to him, is reliable and not biased at all.

Let's take a closer look at the article you don't seem to 'believe,' and let's take ABC's lead by doing a quick google search:

Irgun Zwei Leumi = Zionist terrorist organization, one example of the many listed.

What they did:

Prime target: In 1946, Irgun Zwei Leumi bombed the British army headquarters at the King David Hotel

From the BBC, are you gonna question that source as well?

Terrorists are wanted everywhere in the Middle East too. We don't have the technology to find and charge them. Israel does. That doesn't make Israel any more 'civil' than the rest of the Middle East. That doesn't mean terrorism doesn't exist by numbers, they commit hideous crimes (like in the article I posted from Reuters) in Palestine. You can't deny that.

Israel's own PRIME MINISTER according to BBC was ALSO INVOLVED with this terrorist organization. Let's see you try to get out of that one.

Oddly, it was the right-wing Likud government which entertained President Sadat on his surprise visit in 1977 and negotiated and signed the Camp David peace agreement. Its prime minister, Menachem Begin, had been a leader of the extremist underground group Irgun Zwei Leumi during the 1940s.

Here's The Lehi, another terrorist group, fighting for "the freedom of Israel." (Translation of their actual name: Lohamei Herut Israel), freedom fighters... sound familar, ABC?

The conflict between Lehi and mainstream Jewish and subsequently Israeli organizations came to an end when Lehi was formally dissolved and integrated into the Israeli Defense Forces on May 31, 1948
Do you realize what this means?

There are terrosts in the IDF. People who have served for the Lehi, meaning terrorism still existed throughout many years in Palestine from Israel. And vice versa (which I'm not denying, but you seem to think that Israel is the land of honey and milk, when it's the furthest thing from it.) Those "few lunatic criminals" come in large numbers just like the case is with Palestine.

More from the BBC:
"Palestinian media outlets were badly damaged by Israeli military operations in the wake of the second intifada. Radio and TV stations were destroyed"

Do you have any idea what this does to 'the truth'? For reporting, we now heavily rely on Israel's media, and there's no bias there at all, right? No bias whatsoever.

3,895 Palestinians and 1,084 Israelis have been killed since September 29, 2000. We are currently in the process of revising the number of Israelis killed, because we recently discovered that the IDF has slightly inflated numbers.

Children killed:
Palestine: 722
Israel: 121

This source is also part of 'Remember These Children' - remembering both Israeli and Palestine children coldly killed.

Civilians killed
Palestine: Numbers go up to 2,898
Israel: 761

Targeted people killed in associations:
Palestine: 248
Israel: 1

Bystanders killed:
Palestine: 198
Israel: 0

Causes of Deaths of Israeli Soldiers
2005*

30 - Committed Suicide.

* Source: Israeli newspaper Ma’ariv, Oct. 10, 2005, p. 6.
** The paper also reported that since 1992, 459 Israeli soldiers have committed suicide.

Jee, why would they commit suicide, ABC? Have they done things they aren't particularly proud of?

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

this is awful. I hope the soldiers responsible get life/death in front of a war crimes tribunal.

This is a turning point for me. I think it's time to give up and withdraw. I've held out for years but I don't think we can do anymore good.

It's time to start replacing soldiers with iraqi police/soldiers and for every one we replace we send one home.

I resent the comparisons to Israel. Israel has terrorists and war criminals killed. They only kill bystanders and children by accident. This American killing of Iraqi citizens was in COLD BLOOD! Of course palestine has a history of sending suicide bombers on crowded Israeli school busses full of kids on their way to school. there is no other explanation for that then genocide.

[Abcdxxxx]

Looks like somebody handed you a brochure at your liberal American college and taught you misleading half truths, along with the typical non-sequitor accusations that are easy to debunk...(the King David was a military target, Ramallah hosts major independent news bureaus which employ Palestinians, etc. etc.) but there's no point once you've crossed over into the realm of using David Duke as a resource of ANY sort.

Do you know who David Duke even is?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Yeah, but I believe this thread is about Murtha, not you and your little game of "I said this but what I meant to say was I MEAN well I mean come on I meant... well, I got confused!" or my version of that game for that matter, I just wanted to see you stumble across the facts and deny them so openly.

I'm very impressed that you didn't try to justify your mistakes, though. See you in the next 'Israel rules!' thread.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Can we at least get back on subject?
What should we do to these murderers? War crimes tribunal? Iraqi court? American?

What is the proper punishment?

Jews control the media/weather/banks, and faked the holocost in order to steal land from innocent palestinians in a bid to pin 9/11 on muslims and THE REVERSE VAMPIRES KNEW IT WAS GONNA HAPPEN!

Sorry I was holding that back. So, about these american war crimes.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Excuse me, ABC is my husband and we post against each other as foreplay for the angry sex.

What should we do to these murderers? War crimes tribunal? Iraqi court? American?

What is the proper punishment?

They weren't proven guilty yet, so think about that when they are. Right now it's just been put on the table. Investigations may take up to 6 months last time I checked.
Jews control the media/weather/banks, and faked the holocost in order to steal land from innocent palestinians in a bid to pin 9/11 on muslims and THE REVERSE VAMPIRES KNEW IT WAS GONNA HAPPEN!

Guys, Ahmedinijad of Iran posts on I-mockery.

Seriously though, if anything is convincing about Murtha is how angry he was during the interview. I thought he was going to slit his thumb off at some point. He made it clear how 'ashamed' he was, I can only imagine how ashamed he'll be if these marines were proven "not guilty."

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

lol @ Iran refrence

That guy is a laugh riot. Funniest foriegn president since Hugo Chavez

[Abcdxxxx]

I just wanted to see you stumble across the facts and deny them so openly.

yeah you and david duke are full of "facts".

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

I once recieved a pamphlet from someone like david duke saying Jews Drank blood of babies.

I've been googling everything trying to find it but nothing yet, but i did find this funny catoon.

http://www.kackley.net/blog/images/ComradesInHate-X.gif

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I just wanted to see you stumble across the facts and deny them so openly.

yeah you and david duke are full of "facts".
Honey don't get mad that you made claims that were nowhere near being the truth. Iranians, Arabs, and Israelis aren't the same but one day they will be!

Waiting for you, come to bed. It's getting cold!

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Iranians, Arabs, and Israelis aren't the same but one day they will be!!
huh? I don't get it.

[Abcdxxxx]

what's really ludicrous is you think is a continuation of a conversation from months ago. i know, i know, you're just trying to make up for all that fun you're missing out on, like that 2 day cartoon jihad convention. i was just responding to your current bit of idiocy. okay let's rehash so you can get it out of your system and go back into your hole before you fully turn into geggy/ranxer - you said Israelis aren't arabs. i said sure they are, as in, can be, as in, can be anything as long as they're citizens. then you decided terrorism and homicidal hate crimes are the same thing. then you started humping your computer screen with semantic glee and got so caught up high fiving yourself in the head you linked to a fucking david duke article. you're right, you can't handle democracy yet. a macrobiotic kid could handle his first coke and a packet of poprocks with more grace.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

I'm not quite sure what's going on here.

I think if a homocidal hate crime is committed with political ends in mind it does count as terrorism. But what does it matter? BOTH are wrong. The holocaust not only served to fulfill racist hatred, but also unified the people with a common goal and showed the power of the nazi state. It can certainly be both. i think Palestinian suicide bombings can count as both. Although opn a case by case basis I'm sure some do it for purely political or purely racial reasons, but they can do both.

As for the race thing. Who cares? If the primary practicers of Judaism were black wouldn't David Duke still hate them? Be they white, arab, or asian. they still are a race. But are we talking about the race of jews or the religion of Judaism? I have no idea why theirdna lineage matters here.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

what's really ludicrous is you think is a continuation of a conversation from months ago. i know, i know, you're just trying to make up for all that fun you're missing out on, like that 2 day cartoon jihad convention. i was just responding to your current bit of idiocy. okay let's rehash so you can get it out of your system and go back into your hole before you fully turn into geggy/ranxer - you said Israelis aren't arabs. i said sure they are, as in, can be, as in, can be anything as long as they're citizens.
Stupidity is never forgotten, dearest. You have been the laughing stock of this forum for a while now.
you said Israelis aren't arabs. i said sure they are,
Am I American? Sure I am! As in, I can be! As in, I'm anything as long as I'm a citizen! Of which country though? Not the States! Are those Israelis citizens of any other Arab country? No! So, sure, they're not Arabs! They can't be! As in, they're not!
a macrobiotic kid could handle his first coke and a packet of poprocks with more grace.
I've seen VinceZeb make better attempts at 'funny' than this sorry excuse for a sentence.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

This was on BBC'S front page:

"But reports from Iraqi witnesses and in the US media allege that marines went on a rampage.

According to the Wall St Journal, there is evidence that marines killed civilians, including women and children, without provocation.

Several marines are likely to be charged with murder and others with attempting to cover up the incident, the newspaper said, quoting civilian and military officials close to the investigations.

One of the marines in Haditha that day, Lance Cpl Roel Ryan Briones of Hanford, California, told the Los Angeles Times he had taken photos and carried bodies out of homes as part of a clean-up crew:

"They ranged from little babies to adult males and females. I'll never be able to get that out of my head. I can still smell the blood."

.....

"Jim Murtha, a Democratic Congressman and former marine, has said he believes civilians in Haditha were murdered and the incident was covered up.

"They killed innocent civilians in cold blood and that's what the report is going to tell," he said."

Which is why I think the guy is onto something.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Who's Jim Murtha?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

The report here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5030960.stm) called him Jim, oh merciless angel of tears how insulting.

Here's another report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5032018.stm) that uses his correct name.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Could you say "this guy's on to something!" one more time? Pretty please?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I'll say it again once these men are proven guilty, just for the kicks.

This guy's onto something.

One more time?

This guy's onto something.

Pretty please?

Jim/John/James/Jimmy Murtha are all onto something, especially if they have actual witnesses involved in this.

Now, you see, there's two things against marines (hold your breath.)

Either this marine is wrong:

One of the marines in Haditha that day, Lance Cpl Roel Ryan Briones of Hanford, California, told the Los Angeles Times he had taken photos and carried bodies out of homes as part of a clean-up crew:

Meaning, this marine is lying to frame other marines, which is also bad, OR, he's telling the truth, which is even worse.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I already provided you ONE example where a marine was accused of shooting two captives in the back....by another marine. That story proved to be bogus.

I know you're getting excited. Calm down and let the facts and the case play out.

You seem to think many marines are capable of murdering children, yet one couldn't POSSIBLY exaggerate a story.....! Very consistent of you! This fuzzbot is on to something!

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Jesus Christ, the only one being excited here is you.

"This guy is onto something?! How dare you! Say it again! How DARE you!"

I don't know about you, but this doesn't even begin to compare to killing two captives. These are completely innocent families being wiped out, including children. This case is severe.

I gave one REASON where I told you why I think he's on to something. This is a perfectly fine and fair reason, too. Marines on the scene are actually talking, is that so hard for you to understand? Let me re-phrase it: Marines are talking from personal experiences. They were there. Not in front of a computer like you, not in a cafe, not at the movies, but on the SCENES this was taking place. I highly doubt any marine would lie about something like this.

The 'facts' are above. Names were provided. I don't know what else would be called a fact for you. You seem to be easily convinced when things are going your way, but when marines do mistakes? A SMALL percentage of them, too? Nooooo! Kevin's angry! Kevin's mad! Kevin doesn't want you to say that Murtha is onto something! NO! Marines are there to bake cakes!

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

You seem to think many marines are capable of murdering children, yet one couldn't POSSIBLY exaggerate a story.....! Very consistent of you!
Where did I say that he wasn't exaggerating anything at all?! Every politician exaggerates, but that doesn't stop this from being any less real. It could be blown out of proportion, but not to the extent of making it a complete "lie."

Furthermore, I made it perfectly clear that I do NOT think most marines are capable of this. I said this many times, and not only in one post. I also said that I have marine friends here, whom I know wouldn't do such a thing, and had I been so anti-marines or anti-American as you like to claim I am (to dismiss my opinions easily), I wouldn't befriend such people. What I am saying is that this sort of thing is always possible, and shouldn't come as a "shock" to anyone. And it's nothing to be all "eh, it happens" about. That is a disgusting reaction to this.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

It looks like the predicted Geggy/ranxer plunge has taken full effect.


Has anyone been charged yet? Names being mentioned are "facts"?

Shit, how is this stuff handled in Bahrain again? I guess things just work differently there, like the case of Ghada Jamsheer (http://www.time.com/time/europe/html/060522/jamsheer.html), who apparently almost faced jail time for lashing out at the family courts....?

Maybe you're right after all about democracy and the middle east not working out.....

[Preechr]

Ramallah.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Has anyone been charged yet? Names being mentioned are "facts"?

Names being mentioned are proof. No one has been charged - because the full documented proof isn't fully reported yet. And I don't have anything against that.

As for the other crap you've spewed, is this about Bahrain? No. But so much for falling for the world's most boring stereotype. You're actually willing to change the course of this thread, once again, when we finally got back on it.

What does my government, something I repeatedy critisized on this forum, have anything to do with THIS particular issue? Did I say these people should face the charges yet, without the full facts being laid out on the table? No. I said this deserves to go public, and it did, and then I posted an article about why I think it went public (marines and officers involved are talking, that is something to take seriously. This is almost just as reliable as documented proof, because I doubt any marine, soldier, or officer would lie about this to frame others.)

I already said the above in my other post, but you wanted to make this more about my government.

FOCUS.

Address the real issue:

There's either lying marines, or marines killing innocent people.

This much, we know. You seem to not want to accept that the article I posted, which was very recent, changed the entire course of this thread. When this thread was first written, there weren't other people involved, and now people who were there are actually moving forward. How do you feel abot that, Kevin? (Remember, FOCUS, this isn't about democracy in the Middle East, or Bahrain, or your mother, this is about why Murtha is right in moving forward - people from the scenes are feeding him the information required to believe that the report will have only one conclusion: marines are guilty, and they won't be charged until PROVEN guilty - he never said anything against that, no one wants these people charged without documented proof, but he seems to have no reason whatsoever to stay waiting.)

But, golly gosh! Maybe you're right! Maybe the BBC is just trying to accuse American marines of something they didn't and wouldn't dare to do! Maybe the guy coming clean is MADE UP! Yeah! It makes sense to me!

PS: Ghada Jamsheer's case is about 2312 more different than this. It has nothing to do with proof or being charged with something without any proof. It's speaking against the royal family publicly. The fact that you're even trying to compare just proved to me that you know absolutely nothing about her case, or what she did to get on trial, and how she got out of it - because I just don't see the comparison at ALL. So if you debate this with someone from China, North Korea, or Nepal, you won't talk about this - you'll be like "hey shut up you're from China your government doesn't know how to react properly to things like this!"

If you wanna talk about something that DOES compare (but still has fuck-all to do with this), let's talk about the brutal torturers who got away with all of their crimes even with the documented proof and all the evidence that you could find. They were never charged - in fact, they're living abroad as millionaires, and then the King pardoned all of them, officially. This caused chaos here. Would you like the same to happen in America? Because this IS about America, right? Unless I'm mistaken! Right? You love making this about Bahrain!

If you want to know more about how I feel towards any of the steps taken against Jamsheer you can dig up the posts yourself - I'm not going to repeat it to you. I'm not going to discuss my government and country at all in this thread unless it's to correct your claims.

Now you seem to put "facts" as quotatitons.

Names being mentioned aren't "facts," no. But people revealing what happened is just as important as facts, in this case. Furthermore, a news agency here showed footage of Iraqis complaining that this is constantly taking place. I'm assuming people banging their heads on the walls and floors and weeping uncontrollably for not knowing how else to deal with a loved one's death is just staged, because God forbid something goes wrong in Iraq and Americans are being blamed for it. :rolleyes

[KevinTheOmnivore]

No, see, I think your national background might play a significant role in understanding why you'd like to assume guilt prior to there even being charges, much less a trial. Maybe we could drag their burning bodies through the street once they're convicted, eh?

I think this is a break through. We're LEARNING.

"You're actually willing to change the course of this thread, once again, when we finally got back on it."

You yourself said we were never going to agree on it. You haven't posted anything new here, all you've done is posted the same speculative crap that had already been out there.

And regarding your use of sources, uh, hello ,David Duke? I don't think you're in any position to be arguing for the veracity of anything.

"There's either lying marines, or marines killing innocent people."

A marine reported the carnage that he saw, post operation. I don't know WHAT happened, let alone if a marine is lying (which certainly could be the case). I'll leave the wild speculation to you, Jim Murtha, and David Duke.

I'll reiterate my position on this-- I want this investigation to play out, and if there is a collection of marines who are guilty of these crimes, I want them punished to the full extent of the law (sorry, no genital mutilations). If, like Jim Murtha has speculated, there proves to be a clear indication that there was a cover up here, than I want those guilty to be exposed and prosecuted (minus the public beheadings).

Now I know you're friends with marines, and that Jim Murtha is on to something, and that David Duke hates Jews. These things I know.

I don't know what happened yet in Iraq, and I intend to let the prosecution and the courts figure that out. Welcome to America.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

No, see, I think your national background might play a significant role in understanding why you'd like to assume guilt prior to there even being charges, much less a trial.
You are obviously wrong, once again.

Many Americans are going to say this too, especially since other marines are now involved. Their national background doesn't play a role in this at all. Already, there are tons of American bloggers supporting Murtha. What are you going to do, insist they're not Americans? They must be traitors. Iraq is about winning, not turning your back against your own country, right? Fuck Murtha. JIM Murtha, too!

Maybe we could drag their burning bodies through the street once they're convicted, eh?
Who does this? This has never happened in Bahrain, so if you wanna blame my national background, educate yourself about the country first.

I think this is a break through. We're LEARNING.
If anyone's learning here, I sure hope it's you, mr. excuses.

You yourself said we were never going to agree on it. You haven't posted anything new here
Yes I did.

I didn't know this many people are going to come forward with the same statements Murtha is making. The article I posted from last night was recent and had new things in it (more importantly quotations by another marine who is very passionate about this) which backs Murtha up, and backs up my support of Murtha too.

all you've done is posted the same speculative crap that had already been out there.

Avoiding the issue again, huh? Please answer this, for once and for all:

Marines are either lying.
OR
Marines are killing innocent people.

Right now, it's either one or the other, meaning marines are in trouble either way.

And regarding your use of sources, uh, hello ,David Duke? I don't think you're in any position to be arguing for the veracity of anything.
Since when is the BBC and Reuters similar in any way to Duke?

You're making yourself seem more rediculous by questioning anything that isn't in USA Today. Uh, hello, you have your biases too?

The sources you're talking about were about another argument, and a completely different issue. Completely. Similarily, the sources I'm using for this are just as different, and in fact way more reliable.

Shit, Kevin, are you implying that the BBC staged all of this, and misquoted another marine? No, better yet, MADE HIM UP?!
I don't know WHAT happened,

Finally, something we can both agree on.

Welcome to America.
Flag totin' a little too much are we?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Marines are either lying.
OR
Marines are killing innocent people.

Right now, it's either one or the other, meaning marines are in trouble either way.

Try not to gush at the thought of gettin' them marines.....wait, wait, I know you're friends with marines, and they're lovely people, blah blah.

I already answered this in my previous post. Yes, a marine might be lying. yes, a few marines may have done some horrible shit. But you're getting the "facts" wrong, slugger:

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=local&id=4221312

"Haditha is the town in Western Iraq where a U.S. Marine unit is suspected of killing 23 unarmed Iraqi civilians in a bloody rampage. The two California marines are not accused of any wrongdoing, but of capturing the evidence afterward."

So, as I already stated in my previous post, they saw the aftermath. And as I've already mentioned a page or two ago (one of your selective neglections), a marine accused of shooting two people right in the back was exonerated, even though there was another marine who claimed to see the whole thing. It turned out that the witness saw what he wanted to see, and let his political agenda determine the facts before anything had really been concluded. Sound familiar?

Here's another interesting aspect to this story that will go right over your head:

http://cbs5.com/topstories/local_story_150184350.html

" Lance Corporal Andrew Wright was ordered to photograph corpses of Iraqi civilians killed in an incident that has sparked military investigations and growing political scrutiny.

The North Bay marine has handed over evidence to military officials and been interviewed about the Haditha incident; a deadly encounter between a group of Marines, mainly from Camp Pendleton in Southern California, with a group of unarmed Iraq civilians last November.

Wright and another Marine from California were ordered to use their personal cameras to document the aftermath of incident, where some two dozen unarmed Iraqi civilians were killed. The confrontation prompted an investigation into whether the Marines massacred the Iraqis and another into whether there was a cover-up.[/quote]

Those rotten U.S. Marines, encouraging transparency, photographing the aftermath of what had happened....MAKING REPORTS!

Either marines take pictures or they kill babies. This much we know.


And regarding your use of sources, uh, hello ,David Duke? I don't think you're in any position to be arguing for the veracity of anything.
Since when is the BBC and Reuters similar in any way to Duke?

:lol

Wish it away, wish it away!

Quit making excuses for yourself, you're making yourself seem more rediculous by questioning anything that isn't in USA Today. Uh, hello, you have your biases too?

:lol

You referenced David Duke in an argument, and I'M the one who should be concerned about biases!!? You're hysterical, Geggy/ranxer.

Of course I have my biases, but let's be reasonable here. You're clearly out for marine blood, and you'll post whatever crap necessary in order to support that agenda. Period.


Welcome to America.
Flag totin' a little too much are we?

Not at all, I just want to make sure you become familiar with our system of justice-- I know this must all be strange and new for you.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Kevin, please write to the author of this entry and tell him that he's a disgrace to America. Like Murtha, he shamed the flag.

I'm changing my opinion about this. I am now in total support of America and believe that its mass media is the only reliable source on Earth. BBC and Reuters are both British, who are trying to portray America in the worst light possible.

God bless America, indeed. The greatest nation this world has ever seen, indeed it is.

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/11/john-kerry-undercuts-murtha.html

John in DC is openly supporting Murtha. Not only that, Kevin, but here is John in DC saying that the Iraqi leadership wants you out and you're not listening.

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/11/iraqi-leaders-adopt-murtha-proposal.html

No man this time I'm totally with you, I wish I took your route this entire time. Anything you say from now on, I will agree on, even if you accuse my country of barbarism (yes it's a reason for me not to have a proper opinion about this. Had I been American, the truth would blind me.)

Because you were able to change my opinion about this so quickly and without insulting where I'm from at all I hereby invite you to next week's:

http://www.goldenelite.net/heroes/images/title.jpg

You deserve it. No, you earned it. No, you fought for it.

Thank you. Thank you so much for being an example of the greatest mentality of all time, Americanhood. I'm applying for a green card as we speak, converting to a religion more accepted by America and its great nation, and hope to serve the American economy by joining the workforce. The I-mockery philosophy forums have changed my life, not just my opinions, I have you to thank for that.

Proud to be going to America.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

You're clearly out for marine blood, and you'll post whatever crap necessary in order to support that agenda. Period.

You're clearly waving your flag around, after making the 'God Bless AMERICA!' remarks, don't you think you're trying a LITTLE TOO HARD trying to show that American forces are there to entertain and not fight a war which inevitably included kiling innocent people?

But what do I know? I'm just an alias of Geggy/whoever else isn't an ideal American in your ever so blided eyes. :lol

Awww. exposed! :lol

Kevin's having so much fun! :) :lol :lol

Either marines take pictures or they kill babies. This much we know.

Uh, thanks for re-phrasing exactly what I said before, and then adding exactly what was included in the BBC from another source, a one "less biased" for you.

I think the Cali boys have the right to a more informed opinion than you do, Mr. "I don't know what happened!"

But when the reports come up, I'd love to see your reaction. :(

Will you slit your wrist and come back as BoyinAGothsBody?

Edit: Sorry everyone! I did this as a piece of satire, mocking Geggy and whoever else hates America and conspires against its own great nation! Kevin is right, everyone else can kiss his ass and gnaw on it for all he cares! Marines are there to bake cake, I insist!

GO GO USA!!!!!!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I am having a good time. You bring sunshine to my day.

"I think the Cali boys have the right to a more informed opinion than you do, Mr. "I don't know what happened!""

I believe that what they saw and had to clean up after was horrible. But nobody has said anything conclusive yet, not even David Duke. When he weighs in, let me know.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I believe that what they saw and had to clean up after was horrible. But nobody has said anything conclusive yet, not even David Duke. When he weighs in, let me know.
:lol Kevin you're a laugh a minute! Your David Duke comments need to be quoted and plastered on your mirror so that you can laugh everytime you stare at your reflection.

David Duke
:lol ladies and gents, we have a comedian on board!

In other less biased and more American centralized news, did you know that Americans are in charge of this stupid campaign?

https://www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/buyflowersformurtha.jpg

What should we do about this, Kevin? I believe we should be working towards change, but the good kind, the kind only Americans benefit from. Will you write a recommendation for my green card application? No one's as much of a true American as you are. This way, I won't be rejected! I hope not! God bless America!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

David Duke.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

David Duke.
:lol

You're hilarious in all seasons and in every direction.

USA 4EVA!

God bless America!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

But when the reports come up, I'd love to see your reaction. :(

I've already stated my opinion on this, Geggy/ranxer. My reaction will be determined by the truthiness of the story. For example:

Marines butchered innocent people= outrage.
Marines didn't butcher innocent people= not so outraged.

let me do a comparison you might understand, for clarity....

David Duke= excellent news resource
Jim Murtha= "on to something!"


whoever else hates America and conspires against its own great nation! Kevin is right, everyone else can kiss his ass and gnaw on it for all he cares!

Damn straight.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

David Duke = Not the source used for this topic of discussion.
Jim Murtha = Jim/John are both common names. If I said Kevin is an American, and then typed Pevin is an American, it doesn't make you any less American (if anything made you less American, you'll kill yourself. Because you aren't a person. Not a human being. You are an American, a completely different species. Better than EVERYONE else. God bless America!)
Geggy/ranxer.
Kevin = Funny. This = not a fact.
Kevin = A nobody without his identity as an American with enough pride to kill innocent people.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

An avatar, too!?

"Kevin = A nobody without his identity as an American with enough pride to kill innocent people."

ooh, keep it up. But what will abc say?

I'm glad to have played a small part in your untimely meltdown, fuzzbot.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

ooh, keep it up. But what will abc say?
He'll slit your face for saying 'God bless America' and not Israel.

http://www.xofacto.com/justin025/asskick.jpg

[Abcdxxxx]

I'd say...... THIS IS WHAT DEMOCRACY LOOKS LIKE, THIS IS WHAT DEMOCRACY SOUNDS LIKE!

now show us some REAL LIVE BAHRAINI LEVEES and let's get this show on the road!!!!!!!

Oh by the way, read slowly Fuzzy , this will get complex for you.

1) I'm an American. I wouldn't live in Israel if you paid me. I actually don't like Israelis all that much, but I don't let it cloud my political opinions. I have dual citizenship, but I'm not a fifth columnist.

2)You said "names are proof". That's incorrect. Evidence is proof, a name is just the detail of the accusation. Witnesses aid in this burden of proof. So much as we'd all like to take our bias towards a situation, point a finger, and assign guilt based on assumptions - let's leave that behavior to the reallyt shitty governments we'd like to change, shall we?

Now, don't get me wrong, sometimes assumptions can be pretty accurate....so what can we deduce from a Muslim raised in the Middle East who proudly cites David Duke as a resource ?

[Dr. Boogie]

I still can't believe you cited David Duke as a reliable source, fuzz. I mean, you know he's a white supremacist, right? You know that he hates guys like you, even when you consider his work to be accurate and reliable, right?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

STOP BRINGING THAT UP, BOOGIE!

it was related to a TOTALLY different subject! Like if I said "fags will burn in hell", and cited Pat Robertson, WHY would it have any bearing on my overall credibility!!?

ANSWER ME!

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Don't get me wrong Boogie and Kevin, remember, the civilians who died were WORTH it. Democracy is worth it. Kevin will show you.

http://www.aviewoncities.com/img/zzflags/us_dc-l.gif

KEVIN IS NOT BIASED AT ALL!

As for ABC, I REALLY don't think that someone who says ALL Israelis are Arabs and Iran is part of the Arab world is worthy of anybody's time.

GO GO USA!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Where did abc say all Israelis were Arabs???

It must've been in another thread.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Where did abc say all Israelis were Arabs???

It must've been in another thread.

God you must be blind.

Me: "Israelis aren't Arabs."
ABC: "Yes they're Arabs."

So what do you say about that, little Kevin?

[Emu]

I nominate this to be the first thread from the Poli forum to enter the Thread Backups.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.blackstrikes.com/resources/artwork/david_duke.jpg

+

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/9-11/arabs-911-party-01.jpg

+

http://www.nrk.no/img/506134.jpeg

=

http://www.paulnoll.com/Locations/visiting-Bahrain-flag.gif

[KevinTheOmnivore]

God you must be blind.

Me: "Israelis aren't Arabs."
ABC: "Yes they're Arabs."

So what do you say about that, little Kevin?

"As for ABC, I REALLY don't think that someone who says ALL Israelis are Arabs"-- fuzzy

You said "all". He merely said that there are Israeli Arabs. That is true, right? So where did he imply that all of Israel is Arab...? I must've missed it.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

No, I asked him to list an ARAB state, he listed Israel as an ARAB state. Just like he listed Iran as an Arab state. There are many Arabs in America. Arab-Americans. That doesn't make America an Arab state, does it? Maybe, if you're stupid like ABC.

http://www.gsuadpi.com/famous_adpis/danica_mckellar.jpg

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Is that Winnie Cooper?

Slow it down, and read above. I answered the abc question.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

And I edited the post to answer your question.

Also, I don't know about ABC's English, I mean I know English is his first and only language (and boy does it suck) but also, when I said "Israelis aren't Arabs," I didn't say there weren't Arabs in Israel. I said Israel is not an Arab state, and Israelis aren't Arabs.

FUN FACT:

IMing was invented by the Jews in Israel!
http://bubbasikes.com/graphics/BuckteethBubba.gifhttp://www.aviewoncities.com/img/zzflags/us_dc-l.gifhttp://bubbasikes.com/graphics/BuckteethBubba.gif

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Ok.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

No, I asked him to list an ARAB state, he listed Israel as an ARAB state. Just like he listed Iran as an Arab state. There are many Arabs in America. Arab-Americans. That doesn't make America an Arab state, does it? Maybe, if you're stupid like ABC.

Well, as far as I can tell, what he said was: "Maybe you're right though, maybe all the Arabs living under democracies through out the world go to sleep at nght wrestling with self-destructive urges. You're worse then Fox News. Israel on the other hand has become done pretty okay, with cities like Yaffa exercising their Democratic rights with exceptional growth."

I don't think he ever implied that Israel was Arab as a whole, but once again, maybe I missed it.

You on the other hand most certainly said ""As for ABC, I REALLY don't think that someone who says ALL Israelis are Arabs", which of course he never actually said.

David Duke.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

dear diary,

it's ABC here.

fuck jesus, i'm a jew. and i will no doubt be representing israel in next year's eurovision. man, olympic times.

last time we won the european fucks did it only to humiliate us. those yemenites aint real jews you know. ofra haza may be an exception, but didn't that slut die of aids? and she was beaten into second place by fucking luxemburg.

dreadlocks were originally jewish. the ethiopian jews passed them on through haile salase to the rastafarians.

let me close with some shakespeare

i am a Jew. hath not a Jew eyes? hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?

pretty good for a goy

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I don't think he ever implied that Israel was Arab as a whole, but once again, maybe I missed it.

Again: ISRAEL is not an Arab state. When I asked him to give me an example of a democracy functioning properly in the Arab world, he told me Israel. Implying it's part of the ARAB world. Now, if you're part of the Arab world (and not just situated within it), that makes you an Arab. An Arab world, everywhere, even in newspapers, is a term that means members of the Arab league. If you are not an Arabic country, you are simply not ARABS. Therefore, Israelis aren't Arabs. He tried to justify that example by saying that 19% of Israel are Arabs.

Bzzt. Try again. A large percentage of Bahrain is Indian - but that doesn't make us Indian. Well, for him, yeah it does.

He also said Bahrain was part of Iran. I mean, seriously. That is just beyond excusable. He told me, in words, and I can find it if you want, that Bahrain was under Tehran's laws. He wasn't merely confused - I precisely told him the differences between Iran and Bahrain, and the whole time, he was mentioning the Shah and Imams and I was like, "what?" until he said, "Under your Tehran law in Bahrain."

If you knew anything about the Middle East you'd know that Bahrain isn't and never was part of Iran, and then you attempt to argue with someone from there by insisting that it is? That is just absurd.

And then he says this:

"Iran is the strongest country in the Arab League." Iran is NOT a member of the Arab League.

Bravo, ABC. From now on, I'll call you 'le prof,' because golly gosh jeebus you know everything!

51st State!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I wouldn't pass you off as sane, so don't worry about it.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I wouldn't pass you off as sane, so don't worry about it.
Believe me, the last thing I'd worry about is someone who doesn't give a rat's ass about a bunch of dead people just because they don't happen to be part of his own "great nation."

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Were you referring to me, or David Duke?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Were you referring to me, or David Duke?
David Duke. Just because I was staring at your sour face doesn't mean I'm actually talking to you.

Fondly,
51st State!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Do abc and I need a restraining order?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Try aversion and shock therapy instead.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I prefer the other avatar.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I'll be gone for a few days darling, I hope you can manage!

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Urgh, I'll be stuck with ABC.

Turn on the gas.

[Ant10708]

Wow this is just sad to bear witness too.

[Dr. Boogie]

This thread is spiraling out of control, and I like it!

[Abcdxxxx]

Weird.

Y'know, it kind of puts a new context on your mock the Jew posts once you've used David Duke, author of "Jewish Supremacist" as a resource.

Yemenite Jews are tops in my book, btw.

The threads still active. Re-read it if you're dying to go in circles.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I am not mocking Jews. I am mocking your obsession with being Jewish, and your constant bragging about Israel's "achievements" (did you know that they're the ones who came up with IMs?)

FUN FACT:

The idea of having 'shampoo' started with the Jews. The first man to ever use shampoo was an Israeli guy (not to be confused with an Arab) who thought that his hair resembled his own feces. "I am sick and tired of being called filthy by outsiders who don't realize how hard it is living in this scorching weather. Last night, I saw a Canadian who called me a rag-head. Can't have that, because contrary to popular belief, I am no Arab. No goddamned Arab. Anything but that. So I put together a formula and applied it to my hair. It's part of our tradition to maintain cleanness. I figured, if I'm gonna steal people's ideas and pass them off as mine, I may as well do it clean."

In celebration of Sharon's common sense and brilliance, 'Ariel' was established, with its reputation quickly spreading throughout the world, making it gain the recognition it deserves. For those of you who don't know, Ariel is a shampoo brand by Jewish girls, for Jewish girls. A picture of ABC's face is included directly after the 1-800 number in the bottom, to ensure everyone that the product is in fact Jewish. "Not Jewish," corrected ABC, "Israeli-Jewish, the only right kind of Jewish."

The above is why Israel is succeeding. The above is why Israel deserves not only the lands of Palestine, but the lands of all Middle Eastern countries. The above is why all members of the Jewish belief system are Israelis. "Fuck Jesus," said ABC, in a final comment towards Middle Eastern leaders, "I'm Jewish."

[Ant10708]

FUN FACT:

I, fuzzbot has alot of free time.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Ant, once again, tries to fit in.

Ant, once again, fails.

Nobody paid attention to Ant.

[El Blanco]

Its not so much we weren't paying attention. It is more like he stated something painfully obvious.

[Dr. Boogie]

Israel? More like Jewsrael!:lol

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Its not so much we weren't paying attention. It is more like he stated something painfully obvious.
And all he needed was a team of all-star losers to back it up.

[El Blanco]

que?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

kudos and hey check this out i am on the internet

out of respect for kevin's departure i will no longer post in this thread even though i know that abc bookmarked it

if he posts here again i will rate his performance and then take a long walk off a short pier. still on the internet btw.

[El Blanco]

ok

[Abcdxxxx]

I am mocking your obsession with being Jewish

Hmm, yeah then how do you explain YOUR obsession with my being Jewish. ... or the David Duke thing?

[Dr. Boogie]

Wait, who all is Jewish in this thread?

[Emu]

I think my grandma's Jewish, that makes me Jewish too right?

[Dr. Boogie]

It does, but not enough for you to be involved in worldwide Jew conspiracy.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Back on topic
BBC has released some investigation footage showing the US report differs from the iraqi police one. That the US soldiers buster in killing everyone from the elderly granny to the 3 month old baby with bullets and only AFTERWARDS did the house collapse as part of the coverup.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/3681938.stm

I for one am appaulled and hoe the soldiers face a war crimes tribunal.

oh and I'm 1/32 Jewish, but I know a little hebrew and I'm cicumcised.

[Abcdxxxx]

Ohoh, so here's a news story about one of the orignal reuters reporters for the Haditha story.....

Reuters journalist freed in Iraq
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/MAC161574.htm
By Alastair Macdonald

June 1, 2006

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - An Iraqi journalist working for Reuters was released from U.S. military custody at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad on Thursday after 12 days in detention.

Ali al-Mashhadani, 37, was arrested by U.S. Marines in his home town of Ramadi on May 20 when he went to a U.S. base to retrieve Reuters telephones taken from him earlier that week.

He spent five months in U.S. custody last year before being released without charge in January.

Then skip to:
Among Mashhadani’s recent stories was reporting from the town of Haditha in March. Following Time magazine’s revelation of accusations that U.S. Marines shot dead 24 civilians there in November, he filmed fresh interviews with local officials and residents that were widely used by international media.

A U.S. military investigation is nearing a conclusion and U.S. officials say charges, including murder, may result.

Then this story about the Doctor who issued the cause of death report:


Haditha: River Gate… to Hell
http://www.brusselstribunal.org/ArticlesIraq2.htm#haditha

Sabah Ali (06/11/2005)

Dr. Walid Al-Obeidi, the director of Haditha General Hospital and Dr. Jamil Abdul Jabbar, the only surgeon in the Haditha area, were arrested for a week, very badly beaten and threatened to face the same treatment in the future by the American troops.

Dr.Walid said “they arrested me in my house in front of my family, covered my eyes, and tied my hands to the back on Oct 5 2005 morning, during the last attack on Haditha (360 kilometers west of Baghdad). They occupied the hospital for 8 days and made it their office. The first day they beat me on my eyes, nose, back, hands, legs… My face was covered with blood. I could not wash my face because bleeding would start again. When they removed the tie I could not see. They investigated me until the afternoon. I realized later that I was arrested in the hospital store. Then they tied my hands to the front, and left me for two days. I was moved then to the pharmacy department. They accused me of treating terrorists, and asked for their names.


So these guys weren't exactly huge fans of the US army. I have a feeling this story is just gonna get nuttier from here on out.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I'm waiting on David Duke's opinion.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/06/the_haditha_stratagem.html

June 07, 2006

The Haditha Strategem
By J. R. Dunn

We face an Islamist enemy for which no deception, no cruelty, no inhumanity is too low in battling the infidel. I have previously argued that the Jihadis (among others) were fabricating incidents pointing to American involvement in massacres of Iraqi civilians. With the Haditha story, the subject has exploded across the media in a far more disturbing fashion than anyone could have wished. But there is one element that has been all but ignored: clear evidence that the insurgency has gone one step further, to actually contriving massacres involving U.S. troops.

Haditha is one of a flurry of mass-murder accusations leveled against American forces in recent months. Another serious instance occurred in Ishaqi, sixty miles north of Baghdad. On March 16, U.S. troops allegedly attacked the home of a local schoolteacher, killing eleven people, including women and children, before blowing up the house to conceal the crime. A video was released showing the victims being dug out, and the story was verified by local police.

The soldier's version was more prosaic: coming under fire from the house in question, they called in an AC-130 gunship to level the place. While plucking an injured Al-Qaeda gunman from the wreckage, the troops found four other bodies, including two women and a child. (A similar case in which U.S. soldiers were accused of murdering a family of three in Duluiya, a nearby village, had scarcely begun circulating before it was proven to have actually involved seven grenade-wielding terrorists.)

Ten days later, yet another such "massacre" was revealed in Baghdad itself. Iraqi and U.S. troops raided an office complex held by militiamen, killing sixteen, capturing another eighteen, and rescuing a kidnapping victim. But by the next morning, the offices had been transformed into a mosque, the number of dead had multiplied, and the operation had become an all-American effort.

Initial media interest faded after the kidnap victim denied the mosque claim and revealed the torture scars he'd suffered at the militia's hands (he refused, probably wisely, to identify which militia it was). By this time, the Ishaqi story had also fallen apart, over conflicting accounts of the incident and the victim's identities, ages, and relationships to each other--which didn't prevent a new video from popping up in the wake of the Haditha revelations. (Even as the video made the rounds, the Pentagon announced that the Marines involved had been cleared of all charges.)

What's striking about the Ishaqi report is its surface similarity to the Haditha incident. Both feature ambushes of U.S. troops, carried out from occupied homes, by a single gunman acting alone.

It's that last element that raises questions. A single shooter amid a group of unarmed civilians - that's a strange setup for an ambush. A one-man ambush is a contradiction in terms. A guerilla unit conducting such an operation would use all the men available, to concentrate fire and cause as much damage as possible. A single man may take a pot-shot or two and then break contact. But from a houseful of people, who will inevitably come under fire in return? There's no reason for that. Not unless it wasn't an ambush at all. Not unless a completely different effect was intended.

The war in Iraq is a low-level insurrection slowly - all too slowly - grinding to a halt. The insurgents have attempted to take and hold ground in cities like Tal Afar and Fallujah, and have failed. They have attempted to stop the electoral process through intimidation, and have failed. They have attempted to split the country through civil war, and have failed. Few tactics remain to them, one of which is to take a page from the Vietnam playbook and work the media, hoping that upheaval in the U.S. itself will win their war for them. And that requires a My Lai.

So they've been trying to arrange one. To create the conditions for a massacre. Ambushing Coalition troops from houses full of helpless, unarmed civilians, hoping that the soldiers would respond with all the firepower at their command, and exposing the resulting carnage to the full glare of the international media. That was the plan at Ishaqi, and it might have worked if the shooter hadn't survived. That was also the plan at Haditha--and somebody walked right into it. Some young men angered beyond rationality at seeing a friend blown in half by an IED, driven by impulses we will never know, stormed the nearest homes to kill not only the lone terrorist (according to the account in Time, there were two AK-47s but only one gunman), but everyone else as well--man, woman, and child.

If more proof is needed, consider the May 30 USA Today story in which Marine Captain Andrew Del Gaudio described coming under machine-gun fire this past April after an IED killed four of his men. As he was about to engage, he saw that the enemy had placed a line of children in front of the gun, with two video cameras ready to film them as they were shot down. Del Gaudio held his fire, and was injured by the next rounds. His troops flanked the machine-gun nest before attacking, and the children survived. (Further testimony along the same lines is offered in the Wall Street Journal's June 6 "Best of the Web Today" by a unnamed officer under the heading "Letter from Iraq".)

Clearly, there is no conceivable way to exaggerate the sheer viciousness of the fanatic Islamist.

None of this excuses the alleged actions of the troops at Haditha. Nothing could excuse that. If guilty, they will be tried and punished as they deserve. But if they were goaded into attacking, if it was a setup, if the terrorists are deliberately working to create such atrocities, then it's a development we ignore at our peril. The My Lai paradigm must not be allowed to blind us to the possibility. This tactic (if that's the term I'm groping for) must be investigated, verified, and exposed. Otherwise Haditha, and the media firestorm surrounding it, will simply open the door to a never-ending series of such tragedies. To more lines of children, and more houses full of innocents.

J.R. Dunn is a frequent contributor to The American Thinker.

[mburbank]

I'm not real familliar with "The American Thinker".

Kev, you post that without comment. What do you think about the idea possited in the artcile, not in general, but speciffically as it relates to Haditha?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Funny, I didn't see any objections to the Common Dreams or David Duke links posted by fuzzbot earlier in the thread. Just pretend it was an article from "The Observer".

As for his argument-- I think it's a fair one. As he mentions, there have been cases where investigations found that charges had been at the very least exaggerated, with some cases leading to exoneration.

I think the willingness of the so-called insurgents to take cover in houses and mosques in order to draw fire is telling, and also supported by fact. I mean, do you need to watch videos of beheadings to figure out that these guys don't give a shit about human life, much less those innocent lives lost in Iraq???

I think it's good for some perspective. We here should be held to higher standards, and while pointing fingers and saying "well they do THIS!" certainly shouldn't be the common practice, it might be helpful to those who are so eager to blame our troops (and in reality, use our troops in order to bash the Pentagon) for all of the wrongs in the world.

I believe our soldiers go through great pains in order to spare innocent lives. I think we have the kind of society and media that encourages that sort of transparency. I think we should have a few more things to say about the insurgents who hide behind children and in homes.

Do I think ,much like the author, that American troops who watch their friends die left and right can lose it in a fit of rage and moment of insanity? Do I think war makes people nuts? Absolutely. Not everybody, but many. The rough conditions, the terrible desert heat, the loss of life all around, etc., none of this however excuses what has been alleged in Haditha. But as abc pointed out, those allegations may be in question (much like other charges that never proved to be true).

[mburbank]

Kev;

Okay, I went out and looked up JR Dunn, and...

This was just a random post you made, right? Tell me you are not on the wavelength of a guy who wrote:

"In one of his speeches, President Bush said: “Every country must now make a choice. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.” The same thing could be said for those people who take sides against their country while it’s fighting for its life. One wonders how many attacks on American soil it would take before these hand-wringing cretins would accept the reality of the threat we’re facing. Suppose a few elementary schools around the nation were bombed tomorrow, causing the deaths of hundreds of children? What if a couple of football stadiums were destroyed on a Sunday afternoon, leaving a thousand bodies burning in their seats? How about an anthrax epidemic that killed millions? Just what would it take to make these traitors decide to fight back?"

This saber rattling fear monger? In the same article he talks about War protesters "Straining his faith in the constitution". Yep. Those traitors get a little bit louder and I say we throw freedom of speech out with the bathwater. Your with us or against us, and by us I mean anyone with a different viewpoint. Different viewpoints is for peactime.

You mock Fuzz for quoting David Duke, but Fuzz wasn't born into our culture and isn't in a position to know the players or read the conext clues. Mock all you like (This is I-mockery) but lets see how well you fair
sorting through Arabian pundits in their native language. You, however, are an American. It took me five minutes on google to see this guys fothing at the mouth. That kind of writting strecthes my faith in the constitution. I mean, sure, it's his right to write that kind of thing, but just barely, and maybe it shouldn't be.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

It's an absolute fact that protests in this country have been financed by and coordinated by organizations that want to see the destruction of the United States.

"Mock all you like (This is I-mockery) but lets see how well you fair
sorting through Arabian pundits in their native language. You, however, are an American. It took me five minutes on google to see this guys fothing at the mouth."

Fuzzbot comes from the advanced nation of bahrain, please don't make excuses for him.

As for what you read into, he did what Ann Coulter does every week.

Ann Coulter= crazy, stupid, and entertaining
David Duke= racist

This guy is an angry conservative. Duke is a racist.

Even though I love my darling Ann, I would hesitate to compare her with David Duke. Maybe you see them as one in the same, but I think there's a difference.

The bottom line is that he makes a good argument, and he has his facts straight in the article I posted.

[mburbank]

You come from the advanced nation of the USA. Do you speak, write and read any Arabic languages? Can you make distinctions between various Arab pundits? Don't make excuses for yourself.

While it saddens me that certain organizations finance protests, that invalidates the protest and protestors, especially the vast majority who don't know who financed them, don't depend on that financing in any way and who's views are not influenced by the financers. I attended a massive anti war rally in San Francisco two years ago. Do you mean to tell me I am in some way in favor of the destruction of the United States by association, or that my personal viewpoint is compromised? How would you suggest people express their anti war sentiment? Prior to any demonstration you have ever attended, did you research who paid for the parade permit?

"The bottom line is that he makes a good argument, "

How come that doesn't work for anti war protesters. I'll assume you don't hold truck with a lot of Mr. Dunn's jingoistic bullshit. By posting his work, did you intend to sign on to his entire beief system? And you sir, were entirely aware of the kind of man who's work you posted.

You'll be relieved to know that I am not even tempted to call for the removal of your constitutional rights, but then I'm soft on pedantry.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

There's a relevance threshold which seems to be lost on you here. This guy is no better than Ann Coulter, no worse than Michael Savage. While both of the latter are on the fringes of their party, they aren't even close to David Duke, who is a rabid racist and anti-semite.

If the ability to see the vast distinctions between these two makes me pedantic, than by all means, call me pedantic.

The author is a right-wing conservative. I didn't post the article as a citation of proof, I posted his position on the issue. Fuzzy on the other hand provided a link directly to David Duke's website in order to support one of his anti-semetic, anti-Israel rants. And maybe you haven't gotten through all of the pages, but since the Duke link Fuzzy has gone completely off the reservation with his Jewish fun facts.

This has nothing to do with cultural gaps and poor judgement. Fuzzy was in a rush to prove he was right, and grabbed the first links he could find in order to bash Israel (David Duke provides an abundance of material for that).

Dunn is a right-wing pundit. He's a minute man, close the borders, wave the flag kind of guy. I probably wouldn't agree with him on a lot, but on Haditha, he raised some good points.

And yes, his credibility is VASTLY to superior to that of David Duke's.

[Abcdxxxx]

I'm not ready to make a judgement on the accuracy of events in Haditha just yet, but I'm sure if this particular case is a sham, there have been others that never saw the light of day which were just as bad. it's horrible that this scenario is even plausible at all, but the problem I see is that this equation seems to be enough for many to make their judgement call - and that's wrong. Assumptions are not enough to go on. These Marines should be judged for their own actions, because we know many predetermined assumptions made about Marine conduct in the region has been fabricated, and exploited. We're extra fucked if our own officials start applying a bias and using these stories for purposes of exploitation too.

There are numerous stories of insurgents, militants, terrorists, underground resistance armies (whatever you want to call them) getting caught strategically staging and manipulating news reports.


As for David Duke - American politicians can make a healthy living from the lecture circuit in UAE alone.

David Duke Online Radio Report 11-29-2002

The Iraqi War:
It’s not about the oil, stupid!
by David Duke
Broadcast Date 11-29-2002
http://www.davidduke.com/radio

Representative David Duke at Al-Jazeera Satellite Network in Qatar

I just returned from Bahrain and Qatar. In Qatar I appeared on one of the most-watched television satellite channels in the world, Al-Jazeera. An audience of 70 million saw and listened to me expose the Jewish supremacist traitors in the U.S. Government who have sold out America to Israel. In violation of the United States Constitution, the Jewish-dominated U.S. State Department actually protested my appearance and tried to suppress my freedom of speech as an American citizen. More on that a little later, but first, I want to turn to one of the big lies about the coming war on Iraq, that lie is that Big Oil interests, rather than the Zionists, are behind the planned war.

The Zionists are masters at deception. Like the bait-and-switch sales tactics of American retail giants, some elements of the Jewish-dominated media in America have floated the idea that the coming war in Iraq is about oil.

http://www.davidduke.com/index.php?p=7

(I JUST LINKED TO A GRANDWIZARD TOO!! Let the moral equivalency roll!!)

So where's the explanation or apology from Bahrain Boy himself? There's no admission of a goof when I asked him if he even knew who David Duke is. I assume he was just trying to be a provocative asshole... but it's not like he was embaressed enough to restrain himself from mocking my Jewish pride several posts after he was called on it.

[mburbank]

Did I say he was David Duke?

I said, "Kev, you post that without comment. What do you think about the idea possited in the artcile, not in general, but speciffically as it relates to Haditha?". Then I went out and looked the guy up, and I don't see evidence he's a racist, but I see plenty of evidence he's a fuck. My personal opinion is if you can't find the same argument made by someone who isn't a fuck, it's possible the idea has some problems. The David Duke quote was an error. It's pretty clear Fuzz didn't know who he was.

Dunn may not be Duke, but you yourself compare him to Coulter. You can't find someone who isn't a fuck who agrees with you on this? Were I in those shoes, they would trouble me.

"If the ability to see the vast distinctions between these two makes me pedantic, than by all means, call me pedantic. "

Relax, Kevin. I called Dunn a pedant. He's the one who felt taxed allowing the constitution to provide rights to people he disagrees with. I, however, feel no tempation to loose faith in the costitution simply because you (or anyone) disagrees with me. I'm relatively sure you feel the same way. That's why I'm suprirsed you'd quote such a fuck, but maybe you weren't aware of the degree of his non-racist fuckery.

"Fuzzy was in a rush to prove he was right, and grabbed the first links he could find ."

Agreed. Degree of difference aside, what were you rushing to prove? To paraphrase a favorite philosipher of mine, remove the beam from your own eye. If you'd only been able to find Coulter agreeing with you, would you have posted her?

Without any further research I willingly cede you that Duke is far worse and less credible than Dunn. Congratulations. You've managed to find a pig to represent your argument instead of a monster. Kudos, sir.


"And yes, his credibility is VASTLY to superior to that of David Duke's."

Who's isn't? That's where your setting the bar? Pat Buchanan is far more credible, and he sometimes says things I agree with, but I'm always suspicious because he's PAT BUCHANAN!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

max, you're the one who drew the comparison in the first place.


but I see plenty of evidence he's a fuck. My personal opinion is if you can't find the same argument made by someone who isn't a fuck, it's possible the idea has some problems.

Tony Blankley for one. You could check out his most recent column. But be careful, he's rather conservative. I mean, I wouldn't say he's exactly like David Duke, I certainly wouldn't make that comparison, but ya know David Duke is a racist. Tony Blankley.

If you're asking me are there a lot of people out there who think we should investigate a crime before we slander and convict, well ya, they're out there I think. I didn't post this guy's column because he's the ONLY guy making the argument. I posted it because he made the point well, and if you can't dispute what he said, than maybe you should stop harping on what a fuck he is (if you'd like me to dispute the arguments of David Duke, I'd be glad to, since we're playing the moral equivalence game).


Dunn may not be Duke, but you yourself compare him to Coulter. You can't find someone who isn't a fuck who agrees with you on this? Were I in those shoes, they would trouble me.

It's not a question of agreement. He made the point, a point you've yet to dispute.

"If the ability to see the vast distinctions between these two makes me pedantic, than by all means, call me pedantic. "

Degree of difference aside, what were you rushing to prove? To paraphrase a favorite philosipher of mine, remove the beam from your own eye. If you'd only been able to find Coulter agreeing with you, would you have posted her?

Yeah, that slight degree is hardly worth mentioning.

Be him a fuck or not, he makes an argument you've yet to dispute. I think he makes a valid point about the behaviour of our troops, the tendency of the Left to attack our troops, and previous accounts of supposed atrocities that turned out to be bogus. I know some are in a rush to crucify these marines and yell on about Bush, but Dunn accurately points out the problem in doing that, and how it may be precisely what the so-called insurgents want.


Who's isn't? That's where your setting the bar? Pat Buchanan is far more credible, and he sometimes says things I agree with, but I'm always suspicious because he's PAT BUCHANAN!

Ok, then be suspicious, and dispute this particular argument (and the Duke offer is still on the table if ya need it).

[El Blanco]

Mom! Dad! STOP FIGHTING!

Max, isn't it possible to seperate the point from the mouth piece? I honestly can't think of any pundits that haven't said something inflamatory or douchebaggish to get attention. that is their job.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Oh yeah, well then why can't David Duke make a good point from time to time!!??

HE'S ENTITLED!!

[mburbank]

It's all about where you draw the line, Kev. After you posted, I went and read several columns by this guy, and like Coulter, I think he's enough of a fuck that he's crossed my line. David Duke CAN make a valid point, so can Hitler, so can Satan. Anyone can make a valid point. Michael Moore maes valid points all the time, but even on this somewhat left of center board he's widely discounted as a source on anything.

If you want to draw your personal line after Duke, but before Dunn, that's your perogative. I personally think you degrade yourself by doing that. What side of the line do you put Coulter on? (Who I just think has become an innefectual clown, but no matter how good an idea she might espouse I doubt I'd site any argument she made.)

Everyone draws their lines. I'll look up Blankley, (who I'd call gross as opposed to a fuck or a monster) and maybe argue his merits, but I won't argue Dunns, because my line finds him morally reprehensible. Not anywhere near as bad as a Duke or Dracula or Magneto, but bad enough for me.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You have funny lines, Max.

If you don't want to argue the points because a guy you didn't even know of until yesterday is "morally reprehensible", than ok. But i think you degrade yourself by avoiding the discussion and instead playing the moral equivalence game with a righ-wing pundit and a white supremacist.

Big difference, but I'll respect your inability to see the glaring differences between the two.

[mburbank]

You say 'Moral relativism', I say 'drawing a personal line'.

If david Duke makes a single Valid point, is it worth discussing? You and I would both say no.

If Dunn makes a valid point I would say it isn't worth discussing because he says people protesting the war make it hard for him to believe in the constitution, among other things. For me, that's a line. I think a statement like that, and others I read, mean this dudes a bozo who doesn't understand what makes America great. I wouldn't argue with Anne Coulter and I won't argue with this guy. It honestly doesn't have a lot to do with David Duke. Sure, he's less bald than Coulter and he couches his mean spiritedness with more grace, but while you can put it prom dress on a turd, it still won't dance.

[Abcdxxxx]

I swear Max has posted Coulter articles for discussion, or bashing purposes, in the past. Duke isn't even in the same stratosphere (teehee!).q

[mburbank]

Kev compared Dunn to Coulter , not I. I put her a pundit or two behind Dunn, but both behind the line. And I'd post anyone to make fun of them. The line is about who I'm willing to take seriously.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Max, it's funny that you pick one right-wingers extreme comments, and twist them a tad, and then compare it with David friggin Duke.

Aren't you the one who has posted folks like Dahlia Lithwick on here b/f? She has her own loosey, goosy interpretations of the Constitution, too.

That doesn't make her a rotten human being, nor does it necessarily make her wrong. It certainly doesn't make her David Duke.

[Ant10708]

David Duke sounds like the name of a fictional character.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

"Americans have a special obligation to know about and condemn the moral failures of their countrymen -- we are our own moral arbiters first. The practice of self-criticism above self-interest, the search for truth over fanaticism and the pursuit of justice over partiality distinguish a tolerant, democratic society.

But surely there is also an obligation to put that self criticism in context, to grant members of the American military the same presumption of innocence afforded petty thieves, to recognize the complexities of a conflict with a relentless and remorseless enemy, and to provide some perspective to the very broad scale of human savagery in Iraq and around the globe."

Jonathan Gurwitz (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/06/darfur_and_haditha.html)
San Antonio Express-News

[mburbank]

Kevin, rinse. You'll be shot as a mad dog with all that foam coming out of your mouth. Here's is the extent of my Duke/Dunn comparison. I believe that Fuzz quote Duke and you quoted Dunn because you were in a rush to post something supporting a viewpoint. Could I be wrong? Of course I could. But that's the comparison I'm making.


And you comapring Lithwick to Dunn? Okay, I did say we all draw our lines where we want, but find me something even remotely as extreme as Dunn that Lithwick has ever said.

You are having logic problems.

A.) I dislike Duke.
B.) I dislike Dunn.

Does NOT equal Duke=Dunn.

Even

A.) I think Duke is objectionable enough that I would never source him, even if he made a single statement I agreed with
and
B.) I think Duke is objectionable enough that I would never source him, even if he made a single statement I agreed with

Does NOT equal Duke=Dunn.

I don't think you are saying Lithwick=Dunn. BUT... I think you are rushing again to use her as an example.

Dunn is a provacateur. Quite true, I was totally unaware of him, but for goodness sake Kevin, I CAN read, and I do have an internet connection. I read several, randomly selected columns before posting. I'm not Evelyn Wood, but I can read quickly. He is deliberately inflamatory, and perhaps you can chalk up his most extreme stuff to stylistics and hyperbole. I think that's fine if your primary purpose is to entertain. (or, say, secondary after propoganda.) Al Franken, Michael Moore, and while I find him personally unfunny, the known oxycontin addict Rush Limbaugh.


If I wrote poorly enough that you thought I felt Mr. Dunn and Mr. Duke were similar beyond the way they were used in this thread (my opinion) and beyond the fact that they both fall behind my personal credability line, I apologize.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I believe that Fuzz quote Duke and you quoted Dunn because you were in a rush to post something supporting a viewpoint. Could I be wrong? Of course I could. But that's the comparison I'm making.

Yeah, well you're wrong. i'm sorry that you can't see the mack truck of distinctions coming down the highway, but I won't beleauger the point any more. I'll simply do as you asked, and post comments from others who also support this crazy notion of innocence prior to guilt (see above).


And you comapring Lithwick to Dunn? Okay, I did say we all draw our lines where we want, but find me something even remotely as extreme as Dunn that Lithwick has ever said.

"Look, gun freaks that lurk in my 'Fray' and rant maniacally when I say there's no personal Second Amendment right to bear arms, I have no expectation of changing your minds here, so why don't you skip the whole column and tune into next week's? I'll even provide you with a handy target to take along to your gun club for practice instead."
-- Lithwick, 2002

So, one shows contempt for the FIRST amendment over how some choose to express and exercise it. Another shows contempt for a popular interpretation of the SECOND amendment.

Big difference? Is one a bit more reactionary and vitriolic? Sure. The point is I don't really care about either of them all that much, and I only find myself in the position of "defending" Dunn because you'd rather create a straw man argument over it instead of what he's actually saying.

[mburbank]

I am encouraging you to look for your arguments among men with less straw in their stuffing.

It's good discipline.

Touche on the Lithwick quote. Is that from an artcile or a fray response. I would say, however, that Lithwicks attack on 'gun nuts' is... well... a mack truch away from Dunna commenst on 'War protesters'. You'd do far better accusing me of posting Molly Ivins.

As far as innocence prior to guilt, I'm a fan. I just wonder about what classes of people it's extended to. When you hear a report from the Pentagon that a 'safe house' with a few dozen 'insurgents' was destroyed, and everyone inside killed, do you extend an assumption of innocence to the people inside? Or is it, in almost all cases, irrelevant because we are at war, and because the bad guys are worse than we are?

I have not come to a conclusion on this, but I would say that war, if not perhaps entirely about blanket assumptions of guilt, (and any time small children and old women are fund dead, I would say a blanket decision has been made by someone that if not guilty, they are at very least not worth much) is certainly about setting aside the presumption of innocence, or the entitlement of the innocent to stay alive if they have the poor fortune to be within cluster bomb reach of the potentially guilty.

You are correct that the Marines in question should be ceded the assumption of innocence. They will be investigated several times by their own chain of command, but might not evcer have been had not Time magazine broken the story. Does the assumption of innocence go so far that we must believe it is still possible that the Itaqis were killed by a roadside bomb as was the original, official claim?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

As far as innocence prior to guilt, I'm a fan. I just wonder about what classes of people it's extended to. When you hear a report from the Pentagon that a 'safe house' with a few dozen 'insurgents' was destroyed, and everyone inside killed, do you extend an assumption of innocence to the people inside? Or is it, in almost all cases, irrelevant because we are at war, and because the bad guys are worse than we are?

When it is being alleged that a small group of marines butchered those people, than the right to a fair investigation and trial is what extends to them. They are still American citizens, American citizens under tremendous pressure, stress, and danger, fighting for a corny and quirky notion that they might be defending your and my freedom. Cynics such as us might scoff at that idea, but I've found that these men buy into it.


You are correct that the Marines in question should be ceded the assumption of innocence. They will be investigated several times by their own chain of command, but might not evcer have been had not Time magazine broken the story.

This is one point we agree on, and although Time's sources are now coming into question, I'm glad we have a free, open, and transparent press that is willing to turn its guns on itself and be introspective and critical. Al Jazeera could learn a thing or two, IMO.

Does the assumption of innocence go so far that we must believe it is still possible that the Itaqis were killed by a roadside bomb as was the original, official claim?

is that what the original report claimed? To my understanding, the marines claimed that the roadside bomb was the provocation to go into the town. This (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/07/marine.investigation.ap/) CNN article supports that, do you have something else?

[mburbank]

"Cynics such as us might scoff at that idea, but I've found that these men buy into it. "

Cyncial or not, I don't scoff at the idea in the least. That belief is what makes this tragedy instead of violent farce. And I agree they deserve the assumption of innocence. The Military however, needs it's collective feet held to the fire or it historically speaking tends to shy away from this sort of bad pubicity. Do we know what happened to Pat Tillman yet? How many investigations are we up to now? The wheels of military justice can grind excessively slow and without attention have been known to stop altogether.

I'll see what I can come up with for source material. My understanding is that too date there have been three offcial statements. The first, all the dead were killed by a roadside bomb. Second, a roadside bomb was the provocation and the building collpased due to the amount of fire returned. Third, and current, there was no roadside bomb. The Marines were fired upon and returned fire.

I think it's probably really, really hard to solve a war crime. How to you sort out what sorts of awful, pointless slaughter by humans of humans is a crime and which are accidental and which are exactly the point?

I think you may misunderstand where I'm coming from on all of this. I think when terrorists flew an airplane into the world trade center that was horrible beyond imagining. I think when we drop a bomb on a building from the air because we are targetting someone inside, while knowing full well that many other people will die in almost exactly the same way the people in the trade center died, it is horrible beyond imagining. I think the violent repression and genocide Sadaam Hussein commited is horrible beyond imagining. I think the massive collateral damage and uncounted civillian dead when we wage air war (and I think the surgical strike is a myth. Sure, we're way better at hitting what we want compared to the spray and pray of a few decades ago, but you drop bombs on neighborhoods and lots and lots of noncombatants die.) is horrible beyond imagining.

If I tend to focus on the horrible beyond imagining things my country does, as opposed to someone elses, it is because I am an American and my country is not a football team. My taxes are not paid to Al Quaeda, and not often to Sadaam, although rest assured, back when we liked who he killed he got some. I believe we can be far, far better than we are, and though small, my voice and my vote have something to do with what happens. It kils me to think of young American men and women going to their graves or being maimed in what I believe is the mistaken belief that they are protecting my freedom, while the President who sends them their is busy, busy, busy undermining American freedom.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Hmmm.....


Iraq war foe Murtha eyes Democratic leadership

By Susan Cornwell

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Rep. John Murtha, an outspoken opponent of the war in Iraq, unexpectedly announced on Friday he will run for the No. 2 leadership post in the U.S. House of Representatives if Democrats regain control of that chamber in elections this fall.

"If we prevail as I hope and know we will and return to the majority this next Congress, I have decided to run for the open seat of the majority leader," Murtha, a Pennsylvanian, said in a letter sent to House Democrats.

"I would appreciate your consideration and vote and look forward to speaking to you personally about my decision," Murtha said in the letter.

LINK (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=politicsNews&storyid=2006-06-09T222226Z_01_N09219978_RTRUKOC_0_US-CONGRESS-DEMOCRATS.xml&src=rss&rpc=22)

[Abcdxxxx]

Time has issues some retractions to their story.


In the original version of this story, TIME reported that "one of the most damning pieces of evidence investigators have in their possession, John Sifton of Human Rights Watch told Time's Tim McGirk, is a photo, taken by a Marine with his cell phone that shows Iraqis kneeling — and thus posing no threat — before they were shot." While Sifton did tell TIME that there was photographic evidence, taken by Marines, he had only heard about the specific content of the photos from reports done by NBC, and had no firsthand knowledge. TIME regrets the error.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1198843,00.html


NOTE: In the original version of this story, TIME reported that "a day after the incident, a Haditha journalism student videotaped the scene at the local morgue and at the homes where the killings had occurred. The video was obtained by the Hammurabi Human Rights Group, which cooperates with the internationally respected Human Rights Watch, and has been shared with TIME." In fact, Human Rights Watch has no ties or association with the Hammurabi Human Rights Group. TIME regrets the error.
http://time-proxy.yaga.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1174682,%2000.html