Israel enters Lebanon

[KevinTheOmnivore]

NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/12/world/middleeast/12cnd-mideast.html?ex=1310356800&en=edb3d5b4d4e9f84d&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)

July 12, 2006

Israeli Forces Enter Lebanon After 2 Soldiers Are Seized
By GREG MYRE and STEVEN ERLANGER

JERUSALEM, July 12 — The Lebanese militant group Hezbollah seized two Israeli soldiers and killed three more in a brazen raid this morning along Israel’s border with Lebanon. Israel immediately responded by sending an armored force into southern Lebanon for the first time since withdrawing six years ago.

The clashes dramatically escalated tensions at a time when Israel already is waging a military offensive in the Gaza Strip to seek the return of another soldier held by Palestinian militants for more than two weeks.

Israel’s Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said he held the Lebanese government responsible for the assault by Hezbollah, the Shiite Muslim group that participates in Lebanese politics but also continues to battle Israel.

“I want to make clear that the event this morning is not a terror act, but an act of a sovereign state that attacked Israel without reason,” Mr. Olmert said. “The government of Lebanon, of which Hezbollah is a part, is trying to shake the stability of the region.”

The United Nations representative to southern Lebanon, Gier Pedersen, condemned Hezbollah’s capture of the Israeli soldiers and said it “escalates the already tense situation.”

The Lebanese government did not comment in the hours after the clashes began. Hezbollah effectively controls Lebanon’s southern border despite international pressure and a United Nations resolution calling on the Lebanese government to take control of its borders and disarm militia groups.

While Israel has overwhelming military might in both southern Lebanon and Gaza, Hezbollah and the militant Palestinian faction Hamas both have leverage in the form of the captured Israeli soldiers, raising the possibility of duel confrontations that could carry on indefinitely.

Israel says it will not negotiate, and is demanding the unconditional release of its soldiers and an end to the rocket fire coming out of Gaza and southern Lebanon.

Hamas and Hezbollah, meanwhile, are seeking the release of large numbers of Arab prisoners held by Israel.

Just two years ago, Hezbollah managed to win the freedom of more than 400 Palestinian and Lebanese prisoners in exchange for an Israeli businessman who was being held in Lebanon and the corpses of three Israeli soldiers killed in a Hezbollah attack along the border in 2000.

Today’s fighting erupted when Hezbollah attacked northern Israel with rocket fire in the morning, injuring several Israeli civilians in the northwestern town of Shlomi, the Israeli military said. Israel responded with artillery fire and air strikes that targeted roads, bridges and Hezbollah strongholds in southern Lebanon. Later, Israeli troops moved into southern Lebanon in the first such incursion since Israel pulled its troops back into Israel in 2000.

The Israeli strikes were part of an apparent attempt to keep Hezbollah from moving the captured Israeli soldiers further to the north. Also, at least two Lebanese civilians were killed, according to Reuters.

The Israeli military did not immediately provide details on the border clashes.

While cross-border shooting exchanges break out with some frequency, it has been exceedingly rare for Hezbollah and the Israeli military to come face-to-face on the ground over the past six years.

But Hezbollah said its fighters seized two soldiers along the volatile and heavily guarded frontier. “The two captives were transferred to a safe place,” the group said in a statement.

It said the kidnappings had been planned for months and were intended to help free Arabs held in Israeli jails in a prisoner exchange.

Residents in Lebanon’s Shiite-dominated southern suburbs handed out sweets and set off firecrackers in celebration.

In the past, Hezbollah has launched attacks against Israel when there is heavy fighting between the Israelis and the Palestinians. The latest assault comes at a moment when the region is already roiling with the Israeli-Palestinian crisis in Gaza.

Early today, Israeli troops moved in force into central Gaza, expanding the two-week-old Israeli offensive intended to secure the release of the captured soldier and stop rocket fire into Israel.

The Israeli air force also dropped a powerful bomb on a home in Gaza City at around 3 a.m., saying it targeted senior Hamas leaders. But the blast killed nine members of the Abu Selmiya family, according to Dr. Juma Saqqa, the spokesman for Shifa Hospital, where the bodies were taken.

There were visiting Hamas leaders in the house at the time of the bombing, but they escaped with only minor injuries, Palestinians said.

Nabil Abu Selmiya, a Hamas leader, was killed along with his wife, Salwa, and seven of their children, ages 7 to 18, Dr. Saqqa said. The couple also had two sons who survived the attack, and a married daughter who lives elsewhere.

The Israeli military said the main target was Muhammad Deif, the top figure in Hamas’s armed wing and a man who has been sought by Israel for more than a decade. The Israeli military said Mr. Deif, who has been blamed for the deaths of dozens of Israelis, was injured.

Hamas officials refused to say whether Mr. Deif was at the house at the time of the bombing, but insisted that he was safe.

Just after midnight, scores of Israeli tanks, armored personnel carriers and armored bulldozers, covered by Apache attack helicopters and armed drones, crossed into central Gaza near Kissufim.

Clearing roads and firing tank shells, the troops moved southeast of the town of Deir al Balah, into the neighborhood of Abu Alajeen, residents there said. At least one Palestinian, a member of the official security forces, died in an exchange of fire with Israeli troops, and another was wounded, according to a Palestinian journalist living in Abu Alajeen, as the sound of tank shell explosions made him difficult to hear over the phone.

Israelis are also interrupting local radio stations to broadcast a warning in Arabic that “the Israeli Army is going to continue its operation in the Gaza Strip until the captive soldier is released.” The broadcast says:

“Israel is interested in your well-being. Is this the welfare that Hamas promised you?”

The message warns Palestinians not to allow militants to fire rockets into Israel.

Militants tried to fire makeshift rockets toward the Kissufim border crossing as a column of dozens of armored vehicles and hundreds of soldiers pushed into central Gaza, but the rockets appeared to fall short, Reuters reported.

“Our main target is the terrorist infrastructure: the rocket crews, the gunmen, the arms caches,” said an Israeli commander who was not allowed to give his full name, according to a pool report.

“But of course we are here to show that if, God forbid, any of us is captured by the enemy, the army will do everything to secure his return,” he said.

The army confirmed only that its troops had entered central Gaza. The Israelis want to ensure that the captured soldier, Cpl. Gilad Shalit, is not moved out of Gaza. He was captured on June 25 during a raid into Israel.

Greg Myre reported from Jerusalem for this articleand Steven Erlangerfrom Gaza City. Hassan Fattah contributed reporting from Dubai.

[Abcdxxxx]

I'm still not so sure Israel realizes they're at war, yet.
Olmert's started saying he'd indirectly return prisoners and negotiate with Hamas this week.
The article doesn't mention Syria even once, which is curious.
Some reports are saying the two soldiers captured were from one of the IDF's unit of Druze.

[mburbank]

So is this the one where we're all doomed, or is that the next one?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Alright, I am sympathetic towards israel and their need to defend themselves. And I agree that what Hezbollah did was outrageous and deserving of action.

But was absolutely no diplomatic option available aside from this? Would it be impossible to ask other parties to pressure Lebanon to reign in on Hezbollah, and assist in finding the two IDF soldiers?

Is the Lebanese government SUCH a Syrian puppet that this wouldn't be an option?

What is President Bush, Tony Blair, and co. doing? This whole thing seems to be unraveling really, really fast, and it doesn't seem to have provoked the appropriate response from the West.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5175160.stm

Israel attacks Beirut's airport

Israeli aircraft have fired rockets at the runways of Beirut's international airport in Lebanon, forcing its closure and the diversion of flights.
It follows the capture of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah militants.

Meanwhile, 10 civilians were killed in fresh Israeli air raids in southern Lebanon, security sources said.

Israeli jets have pounded targets in southern Lebanon in retaliation for the soldiers' capture. Israel has said it holds Lebanon responsible.

The Beirut airport is Lebanon's only international airport.

It is located in the Lebanese capital's Hezbollah-controlled southern suburbs.

Shortly after Israeli shells began falling on the runways, a senior airport official announced the facility was closed and asked scheduled flights to divert to Cyprus.

Israeli PM Ehud Olmert said the soldiers' capture was an "act of war", but Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah insisted the two would only be returned via talks.

Mr Olmert said he held Beirut responsible, but Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Siniora denied any knowledge of the Hezbollah operation and refused to take responsibility for the soldiers' capture.
----

In a related story.....

This story just amazes me. To have the head of "political" Hamas, housed in SYRIA, present himself as the chief negotiating power in Palestine boggles my mind.

" Whether you want it or not, I am the only partner you can speak to about the release of prisoners and suspending the Qassam rocket attacks. "

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/736816.html

'I'm the man,' Meshal says in first comments since crisis broke

By Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff

The first speech yesterday by Khaled Meshal, the Damascus-based head of Hamas' political bureau, since the abduction of Corporal Gilad Shalit was intended mainly to reinforce his leadership position vis-a-vis both Palestinians and Israel. His statements contained little real news. He reiterated the Hamas promise not to hurt Shalit and the position that he would be released only in exchange for the release of Palestinian prisoners held in Israel.

What Meshal did do was to declare that he and not the chairman of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, in Ramallah, or Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh in Gaza, is the sole spokesman for the Palestinian people in the territories and beyond.

[Jeanette X]

:chatter

[Abcdxxxx]

But was absolutely no diplomatic option available aside from this? Would it be impossible to ask other parties to pressure Lebanon to reign in on Hezbollah, and assist in finding the two IDF soldiers?

Is the Lebanese government SUCH a Syrian puppet that this wouldn't be an option?

To answer your question...YES! So much so, that attacking Lebanon and holding their government responsible doesn't make any obviouse sense. The only explanation is that Syria just signed a mutual defense pact with Iran, so if Israel attacks Syria, it will be seen as an attack on Iran too. I don't know what diplomatic option there is - Syria supports terror, occupies Lebanon, and has timed these kidnappings AND rocket attacks into central Israel, kibbutzes and the like, all as a strong provocation.

Diplomacy failed back in October, 2000 when Israeli soldiers, and some civilians were kidnapped by Hizzbalah, while UN peace keepers video taped portions of the incident. The UN wouldn't even release the tapes which Israel hoped would identify the kidnappers, and offer clues....I'm simplifying the whole ordeal, but long story short, Israel only just recently got the remains of the Israeli hostages.

[mburbank]

I do not understand any of this shit. I don't understnd any strategic gain from what Hezbollah is doing, and I don't understand what Israel could possibly hope to gain from collective punishment in gaza and attacking the aiprort in Lebanon. It's like some sort of hideous rush to death.

Has anyone ever checked what's in middle eastern water? Everyone over there is nuts.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Although I think the actions in Gaza have been a bit excessive, I feel the "government" in Gaza (and Hamas) has left Israel with little choice. If they find that kidnapping soldiers is effective, they will keep doing it over and over again.

I don't like the idea of power being cut off for entire sections of Gaza, but when you have outside entities (see Hamas article above) using Gaza as a launching point for attacks, something has to be done.

The government there needs to control their borders and eliminate their criminal, terrorist elements. They have failed to do either.

[mburbank]

The reason I haven't posted about this is a have no ideas at all about solutions. It is just open season for crazies over there. And yeah, you can't allow people to think kidnapping works, but you can't allow people to think creating a humanitarian crisis works either. There's nothing going on but can't allow stuff and it looks like it's spiralling very quickly. I can't imagine anyone in any faction wants to see everybody die and surely they aren't all 100 percent insane.

It makes me think of WWI where all parties thought all other parties had left them no choice.

[AChimp]

The Middle East needs a good solid war, IMO. One where you have trenches and tanks and soldiers kneedeep in the shit, not this fire a missile from 1000 miles away stuff. The West needs to sit back and let it happen, and it has to be so utterly devastating to everyone involved that when it's over, everyone looks around and goes, "holy fuck, what just happened?"

They need to get it out of their system once and for all. Peaceful solutions won't work as long as both sides still think they are more clever and/or superior than the other side. The Israelis sit there all smug with their high-tech military, while the Muslims never drop the retarded "you stole the land we stole from the people who stole it from you thousands of years ago while we were mucking around in shitholes" attitude.

:(

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Problem solved.

Next!

[Abcdxxxx]

I'm not sure I understand the power plant thing either, but there have been a steady stream of trucks with humanitarian aid ever since, and I believe there are generators or backups so that the grid they hit can function on a partial basis. In other words, it's not exactly the crisis they will play it out to be (unless being cut off from the World Cup is a crisis, and since Hamas h

The plant was built by a UAE commpany to replace a grid originally provided to them by Israel. Prior to that, there was no running water or electricity in Gaza, at all. I believe the statement is "if you attack the people who provide you with your resources, then it hurts you too". The kicker is the power plant was insured by the USA, for 50 mil., even aganst acts of terrorism.

They really are all nuts out there, but I think you're confusing the hip terminology like "collective punishment" with outright war tactics. When you go to war, you do hit your enemies bridges, and power, and airports, and air strips. [/i]

[AChimp]

I'll share the money with all of you when I win the Nobel Peace Prize.

[ziggytrix]

how very noble of you!

[Abcdxxxx]

Rockets just hit an Israeli Arab village in Haifa - others hit and damaged a a Kibbutz. They're not even being subtle in trying to provoke a war at this point.

Edit: attacks from border to border - over 70 rockets with heavy targeting of Arab Israeli citizens.

[ItalianStereotype]

looks like another wave of airstrikes targeted Hezbollah's headquarters.

I like the idea of Israel projecting a little power.

[Geggy]

Easy...

Who benefits from the kidnappings?

"by way of deception thou shalt do war..."

[Geggy]

US is the only one defending Israel's actions...obviously :rolleyes

[Geggy]

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_662.shtml

:)

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Hezbollah needs you, Geggy! Don't let the Zionist Imperialists do this! GO FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT, GEGSTER!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

US is the only one defending Israel's actions...obviously :rolleyes

Yeah, I mean, it makes good sense for the U.S. to support a UN resolution that was sponsored by Qatar and probably drafted by Iran. Idiot.

NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/14/world/middleeast/14cnd-mideast.html?ex=1310529600&en=e919252e8ebee9cb&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)

Israel Extends Strikes Deeper Into Lebanon
By HASSAN M. FATTAH and STEVEN ERLANGER

Published: July 14, 2006
BEIRUT, Lebanon, Friday, July 14 — Israel extended punishing airstrikes deeper inside Lebanon today, hitting areas in Beirut’s suburbs linked to the militant group Hezbollah and cutting the main highway between the capital and Damascus in Syria.
--

Yikes.

[ziggytrix]

The big argument is not whether Israel has the right to react. That's a moot point. The argument seems to be whether or not they're overreacting.

I'm curious what will be said at G8 of all this, and if anything remotely useful will come of it.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I wouldn't count on a damn thing coming out of the G8, or the UN for that matter, God bless their hearts.

I think there is an argument to be had over the measures Israel is taking, however a lot of the people I hear raising that issue are the same knee-jerk, ignorant idiots who wait in the high grass for the right moment to attack Israel. Like last night, a talk radio host was talking about how Israel creates this kind of Arab reaction, and of course, they've been doing it "since a bunch of European Jews decided they were entitled to Arab land."

I think we need to try to get France involved in this, and some kind of diplomatic emergency envoy needs to take place. Israel needs to be in the room, Lebanon needs to be in the room, and perhaps even Syria.

Lebanon MUST disarm Hezbollah, and control their soutrhern borders. If they can't do this b/c of Syria, or iran, then Israel has every right to secure the Lebanese border and cut off transfer to Syria/Iran.

I would like to see Israel stand down a bit, but I don't think that can happen unless these other things can be guaranteed.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/14/D8IRSFG0A.html

Palestinians Stream Into Gaza From Egypt
Jul 14 12:34 PM US/Eastern

By DIAA HADID
Associated Press Writer


RAFAH, Gaza Strip

Militants forced open a border gate between Egypt and Gaza on Friday, wounding an Egyptian officer and letting hundreds of Palestinians who had been trapped on the Egyptian side of the border to get into Gaza.

Armed militants stood by as people carrying suitcases crossed into Gaza. Some walked through on crutches while others walked or ran through the gate.

Egyptian police Capt. Mohammed Abdel Hadi said masked Palestinian militants firing guns broke into the Egyptian side of the Rafah border crossing, clearing the way for the trapped Gazans.

One Egyptian border policeman was wounded when the militants stormed the frontier, said Abdel Hadi, who heads police on the Egyptian side of Rafah.

The crossing, Gaza's main gateway to the outside world, has largely been closed since June 25, when Palestinian militants carried out a raid on a military outpost, killing two Israeli soldiers and capturing one.

Hundreds of people have been stranded on the Egyptian side, unable to get to their homes in Gaza.

Rafah's closure left hundreds of Palestinians who work and study in Egypt stranded, while preventing hundreds of others from leaving the coastal area to receive medical treatment abroad.

Last week, a 26-year-old Palestinian woman suffering from cancer died at the border while waiting to be allowed into Gaza.

[Abcdxxxx]

Geggy- Canada has publicly supported Israel, and initial statements have Saudi Arabia placing full blame on Hezballah.

Ziggy - half the country is living in bomb shelters, and Iran's President has announced this will be the demise of Israel. There was an Arab League style meeting only a week ago where it was voted to take action against Israel, and here we see the results. This isn't about a few kidnapped soldiers. Unilateral gestures for peace are what got Israel in this predicament. They need to hit harder, because if they stumble, Iran will cut Israel's pipelines...and if Israel falls, you can expect a third front on this war with Iran heading into Iraq. They have their eyes on a map with a map where the Mid-East is Islamic from Iran all the way to Egypt. Maybe you're not aware what kind of attacks ISrael withstood in the past 24 hours?

Kevin - that's Egypt's version of an "Apparthaid wall", only nobody mentions it. Palestinians have to go through checkpoints to work in Egypt, so whenever things get tense, Egypt cuts them off, and inevitably, the Palestinians blow a hole through the wall and start running backand forth like loons. It's easier then tunnels. So when Israel went into Gaza, Egypt just cut off the Palestinians, which meant the day laborers were sleeping in the streets waiting for them to reopen.

About Lebanon - you've probably read, theres a strange amoung of support within Lebanon for Israel to finally take care of their Hizzbalah problem. I think most ideals would be to see Lebanon fight back against Syria and join up with Israel, rather then take the brunt of these attacks.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

About Lebanon - you've probably read, theres a strange amoung of support within Lebanon for Israel to finally take care of their Hizzbalah problem. I think most ideals would be to see Lebanon fight back against Syria and join up with Israel, rather then take the brunt of these attacks.

I have not read of this, would you happen to have any links or sources on that?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

As a follow up to that, I found this: http://lebanesebloggers.blogspot.com/

It's funny, b/c some Left-wing radio hater last night said "don't trust the media on this! Go to this website!"

Well here's a good posting:

I don't know what to say anymore. Sayyid Nasrallah is still alive and declaring an open war. Where is our President? Where are our Ministers? Prime Minister? Members of Parliament?

All these institutions and the guardians of these institutions are obsolete at this point. Nasrallah is leading the show. He's defying everything and everyone. He is assuming the position of the guardian of the Prophet's Family, against all odds. This is not about Lebanon anymore; this is about Nasrallah's pride.

The Iran-Syria Axis has just fully materialized!

An Israeli warship was hit on the coast off of Beirut, the same warship that hit Hizbullah's headquarters which housed Nasrallah.

Lebanon is a hostage and all the Lebanese people are a pawn in the hands of the few.

and.....

Today I heard one of the most historical addresses by the Israeli UN ambassador on Lebanon.

Just quickly: he quoted Marwan Hamadeh, Elias Atallah and another unnamed Minister saying yesterday that Lebanon has been taken hostage by regional forces (Iran and Syria) and by terror (form Hizbullah).

He looked the Lebanese UN representative in the eye and said: I would like to make an appeal to Lebanon's representative. You know deep down that if you could, you would add your brave voice to the voices of your brave compatriots in Lebanon. You could be sitting next to me now to negotiate a solution. If we succeed, it will be beneficial for all of us. Lebanon has an opportunity to be a free, prosperous democratic Lebanon.

[Abcdxxxx]

Mind you, I'm not saying any Lebanese are overjoyed to have a crater size hole in the runway of their brand new airport, but....


Dear Mr. Prime Minister,

It was about time,

We Lebanese congratulate you on your recent actions against the Hezbollah terrorist infrastructure in Lebanon. We urge you to hit them hard and destroy their terror infrastructure. It is not Israel who is fed up with this situation, but the majority of the silent Lebanese in Lebanon who are fed up with Hezbollah and are powerless to do anything out of fear of terror retaliation.

Since Israel’s forced withdrawal in 2000, pulling out due to pressure from the Clinton Administration, Hezbollah has not for one day ceased its terror incentives, acts of war and provocations at the border. Hezbollah, with the help of Syria and Iran, turned Southern Lebanon into a terror base supported by 12,000 Iranian missiles threatening every initiative for Peace in general and the security of Israel in particular.

Unfortunately, the West should have understood from the beginning that diplomacy does not work with terrorism, neither the Saudi backed initiatives in Lebanon, it enforces terrorism and acts like a booster for Hezbollah justifications on the ground.

The Lebanese are trapped within their own nation.

We urge you not to hit Lebanese infrastructure, Lebanon is a friendly country, rather hit and destroy Hezbollah’s infrastructure in the country.

The IAF raids on suspected Hezbollah strongholds will have a limited effect on this terror organization; an infantry offensive is needed to clean up Southern Lebanon from the threatening missiles and launching bases , destroy Hezbollah infrastructure and consolidate security.

On behalf of thousands of Lebanese, we ask you to open the doors of Tel Aviv Ben Gurion airport to thousands of volunteers in the Diaspora willing to bear arms and liberate their homeland from fundamentalism. We ask you for support, facilitations and logistics in order to win this struggle and achieve together the same objectives: Peace and Security for Lebanon and Israel and our future generations to come.

As of the fighting continue in the north of Israel in order to create security, at the Lebanon Israel border, we ask the world’s nations to endorse your political action and wish you full success in your deterrence against terrorism’s autonomy in Southern Lebanon and Gaza.

Mr. Prime Minister,

Help Lebanon in order to help yourself.
http://www.free-lebanon.com/



24. A message to the IDF
Please free our beloved tortured country from these crazed mullah-followers. Free our land from these bloody syrian and iranian agents. we want to live in peace.
Please take caution to focus your attack where they are and not attack christian areas. we support you and bear you no ill will.
May god bless you.
Lebanese christian, Damour area (07.14.06)
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3275366,00.html


22. Please no more empty words
I beg of Israel not to back off!!!!!!
Please ignore the world and really go after hizbalah.
hizbalah is a foreign iranian/syrian implant in our beloved lebanon.
wipe them out , kill their leaders one by one. we want to live in peace with civilized nations.
Thank you
farid of lebanon (07.14.06)
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3275338,00.html

7. Israel go ahead
I’m lebanese Christian from beirut, i hope Israel can reach hezbolla in their bed and kills them, and also let Israel strike the syrian president,, I wish this strike will finish soon,, with less civilian,, we are in the Christian area of beirut feeling happy about the strike, but psychologically we are affected,,everybody hates hezbolla here,,
I hope this will finish

nadim, lebanon (07.14.06)
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3275319,00.html


13. lebanese

to the person who said that palestinian and lebanese are one people well ur so damn wrong we are not like the palestinien and we do not want to fight their war, we only want out country we want peace and we want to get over with hizbulla, hopefully soon, so don’t link the lebanese to any of the arab world peope caus they are a bunch of f-cked up people

elie, lebanon (07.13.06)
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3274939,00.html


That's pretty much the standard coming from Lebanese blogs and posts on Pro-Israel message boards. On one hand, there is anger for a misdirected response, while on the other, they are supprotive that Israel is doing something and dropping the leaflets to avoid civilians casualties.

[Geggy]

BEIRUT (Reuters) - Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora called on Saturday for an immediate ceasefire, saying Israeli attacks had turned Lebanon into a disaster area in need of international aid.

http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=12852592&src=ActiveBuddy

Go israel! Go, go, go! Israel! Israel! Israel!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

If the Lebanese PM actually had any power that would mean something.

Maybe he should check with Syria and Iran before he says anything else.

Geggy, if I could get the cash together, would you go fight the good fight with Hezbollah???

[Abcdxxxx]

Geggy? Do you fully grasp the ramifications if

a) Israel falls.
b) Iran and Korea join forces, and jump in.


Do you? This goes beyond any romanticism towards oppressed Arabs, or your hatred for Jews. Think.

[Abcdxxxx]

Geggy, are you around, or are you busy playing anarchist role playing games again?

Add France, and the G-8 summit nations backing Israels right to self defense.

Add Egypt, Jordan, and even the Palestinian Authority to Saudi Arabia's condemnation of Hizzbalahs provocations.

I know you'll be sad when your Kaffiyeh goes out of style, but aren't you going to be happy if we get a liberated Lebanon out of all this?

[Miss Modular]

I do not understand any of this shit.

As naive and uninformed as this is going to sound, I really don't know very much about the whole Israel/Palestine thing, PERIOD, which is why I've never come in any Israel/Palestine thread and stated my belief on it.

I guess to say I'm uninformed is a little more honest than screaming "Free Palestine!" or "Go Israel!" or something like that.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Add France, and the G-8 summit nations backing Israels right to self defense.

Add Egypt, Jordan, and even the Palestinian Authority to Saudi Arabia's condemnation of Hizzbalahs provocations.

Right, but Ahmadinejad says Israel is acting like Hitler here. Who are you going to believe in all this, huh???

[ScruU2wice]

So Korea's flaunting long range weapons, Israel is invading lebanon, and India is outright pinning the mumbia train blast on the Pakistani government.

Why does it feel like the world is going to hell in a hand basket this week?

[Abcdxxxx]

It's outright freakish how Israel and India got attacked, and yet Scru, you phrase it to sound like they're the aggressors causing trouble in line with korea flaunting long range missiles.

[ziggytrix]

It's outright freakish to think anyone would say Isreal isn't exacerbating the situation.

Not that they have any other choice but to bomb the fuck outta Lebanon for what Syria is doing to them... :/

[Preechr]

GO JEWS!

I can't help but smirk with childish glee at the fact that Isreal's entirely proportionate response to the larger global WOT is only making Bush's fighting of Kerry's War in Iraq look good. Even with our Abu Ghraibs, Gitmos and Haddithas US troops are decidedly fighting the kindler, gentler form of war on a tactic here.

I think it's good for the world to see that so graphically displayed. The 99% of the population of the planet that wouldn't pick up a book on the subject might even notice. More informed observers might even take note of Isreal's political unification on the subject, maybe might even compare that to the political wars going on in the homelands of Europe and America.

Organizations exist that were chartered in order to expedite the extermination of most of us here for some reason, right there with the Zionist state. All of us are gonna wind up swept into some ocean if we don't start taking this tactic, possibly the last as yet undefeated hope in a long list of tactics designed to maintain slavery among men, somewhat more seriously.

I repeat:

GO JEWS!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

It's outright freakish to think anyone would say Isreal isn't exacerbating the situation.

They're certainly causing a lot of damage, but "exacerbating"? Lebanon can't control their own borders, and their government is too weak to even do anything about it. They allow entities in Damascus and Tehran to dictate their policy. What about Security Council Resolution 1559?

What, will Hezbollah kidnap more people because of israel? maybe Syria or Iran will be forced to finance more terrorist organizations because of what Israel's doing. :rolleyes

[ziggytrix]

I believe every death exacerbates the situation. Regardless of whose hands are getting stained. :(

[Preechr]

Well, y'know what? I'm not sure many of us will die for something as important as plugging the MidEast into the modern world and ending terrorism as a method of influencing world events.

If you are not comfortable discussing the deaths of people, then you might not want to be speaking up about war, because that's pretty much all there is to see here, Betty.

[Abcdxxxx]

It's outright freakish to think anyone would say Isreal isn't exacerbating the situation.

Not that they have any other choice but to bomb the fuck outta Lebanon for what Syria is doing to them... :/

Lemme guess. You think Israel's responding to some kidnappings? Yeah I guess self defense can be considered "exacerbating" .... if you're rooting for Hezzballah.

[ziggytrix]

"What they need to do is get Syria to get Hizbollah to stop doing this shit, and it's over." - George W. Bush

[KevinTheOmnivore]

So Ziggy, if Israel completely overlooked Lebanon (which is where the soldiers were transported to, which is why Israel targeted infrastructure), and just started bombing Damascus, you'd be in favor of it.....?

[ziggytrix]

Why would I be OK with that?

Those were Bush's words, not mine. And he also said, "I felt like telling Kofi to call, to get on the phone to Assad and make something happen." "We're not blaming Israel. We're not blaming the Lebanese Government."

You talk about targetting infrastructure, yet death tolls are already up to around 230. I'm having trouble finding numbers for deaths caused by the Rockets fired into Israel, but those numbers should be included as well.

It is an escalation of violence from both sides. You're a god-damned idiot if you deny that simple point.

Meanwhile, the string pullers sit pretty in their mansions and palaces.

Just another day on planet Earth.


edit: Israeli death toll was up to 24 (of which half were civilian) as of Monday night (source (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/world/stories/071806dnintisrael_.1ef7fbae.html) -- the picture of those little girls writing messages on those rockets is sad).

[kahljorn]

Not to seem crude or or anything but 230 deaths, considering the strategical damage to the infrastructure they keep talking about, really isn't that big of a deal.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

If the Republican Party had an armed wing, let's call it the NRA, and they crossed the Canadian border and kidnapped two mounties, what would a justified response be from the Canadaians?

What if Canada had evidence that the NRA was not only being supported in their efforts by Mexico, but they also intended to smuggle those poor mounties into Mexico or Guatemala?

What if Canada learned that the whole thing was orcehstrated by Guatemala and Mexico, and instead of cooperating, the NRA continued to attack Canada?

What if the U.S. government claimed to have no control over the NRA, despite UN pressure to disram them?

Would Canada be justified in trying to prevent the NRA from getting those mounties into Mexico, or would Canada simply ignore the role the U.S. played in the whole mess?

What should Israel do, Ziggy?

[AChimp]

Canada would send a strike team of commando beavers across the border to de-forest the entire U.S. overnight.

[ziggytrix]

I don't know, Kevin. But that doesn't mean I have to like what's going on.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Canada would send a strike team of commando beavers across the border to de-forest the entire U.S. overnight.

The mounties could totally take the Upper peninsula.

Ziggy, nobody has to like what's going on, but it is going on.

And it isn't going to stop if Israel simply stops fighting. It'll only stop when groups like Hezbollah no longer exist, and countries like Syria and Iran stop waging proxy wars against Israel.

[Abcdxxxx]

Of course you hate what's going on you moron. Go check out the blogs "in support of the Zionist entity". You think Israel and her supporters are happy? You think Israel likes getting hit with 1000 rockets in a week? You think Israel likes fighting a war against two terrorist groups that bae themselves inside civilian populations specifically to maximize the death tolls. You thin Israel likes that it's hands are tied from retaliating against the two States sponsoring these biproxy attacks? You think that Israelis like that no nothings like you put the blame squarely on Israel? Or that the daily attacks on Israeli civilians are so sordid and numerous, they're rarely reported. did you hear about the fire bombings yesterday? Knife attacks? The Rafah border opening up for arms smuggling again? Who can keep track? Israel is being attacked at two borders, and it is no coincidence, even if the media keeps treating these are seperate instances, and seperate organizations.

The escalation was the assasination of a Lebanese head of state. The escalation was putting Hizzballah and Hamas in government.

If Miami or San Antonio wer getting hit with rockets on a daily basis, what would we do?

Finally, what exactly do you expect Israel to do?! They don't have the luxury of being a pacifist nation. If you don't like the death toll, then why would 1 million Israeli Arabs, and 5 million Jews "pushed into the sea" sound like a better option?

[mburbank]

"If the Republican Party had an armed wing, let's call it the NRA, and they crossed the Canadian border and kidnapped two mounties, what would a justified response be from the Canadaians? "

The destruction of the infrastructurue of the entire United States.

"What if Canada had evidence that the NRA was not only being supported in their efforts by Mexico, but they also intended to smuggle those poor mounties into Mexico or Guatemala?"

Follow the destruction of US infrastructure with bombing campiagns in Mexico ANF gautemala, to be on the safe side.

"What if Canada learned that the whole thing was orcehstrated by Guatemala and Mexico, and instead of cooperating, the NRA continued to attack Canada?"

Intensify bombimng of Mexico and Guatemala

"What if the U.S. government claimed to have no control over the NRA, despite UN pressure to disram them?"

Bomb DC directly

"Would Canada be justified in trying to prevent the NRA from getting those mounties into Mexico, or would Canada simply ignore the role the U.S. played in the whole mess?"

Not only justified, you could hope that the situation would result in a much wider war that might finally wipe out te NRA. Secretly, the US government is hoping for just such a thing and welcomes the destruction of their infrastructure. If Canada plays its cards right, The soviet Union will come in on their side and instutue regume change in Mexico and Guatemala, which will go off without a hitch, as their recent sovietization of Brazil did. Sure, tons and tons and tons of people will die, but in the long run we know for certain that a sovietized Central and South America will usher in a golden age that will make all the slaughter worth it. And even if it doesn't, do the Canadians really have any choice?

"What should Israel do, Ziggy?"

Israel?! I thought we were talking about Canada! Oh, wait, my name isn't Ziggy.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

My "Free Lebanon!" T-shirt is on back order....

[ziggytrix]

Of course you hate what's going on you moron. Go check out the blogs "in support of the Zionist entity". You think Israel and her supporters are happy? You think Israel likes getting hit with 1000 rockets in a week? You think Israel likes fighting a war against two terrorist groups that bae themselves inside civilian populations specifically to maximize the death tolls. You thin Israel likes that it's hands are tied from retaliating against the two States sponsoring these biproxy attacks? You think that Israelis like that no nothings like you put the blame squarely on Israel?

So very sorry. I'll order my Israel cheerleading outfit today, and later on you can show me some of the routines!

[ziggytrix]

well, since you're being a nancy no-show, let me try one-

Go Jews, defeat Lebanon!
Zionist can do no wrong!


ugh, the meter on that just sucks! help please!

[Preechr]

Hence: "The War on Terror."

[Abcdxxxx]

I had the chance to visit with an old friend of my grandparents, today. She's Morrocan, and grew up in France, before moving to Israel in the 40's to voulenteer with the creation of the Israeli State - as in, there was nothing there previously in the way of a fully functioning country. She didn't go to immigrate, she went to work the land, and build communities. She described a fair they had to invite the Arabs, and nobody showed up. The news reports she watches make absolutely no sense to here, because she remembers the war of Independence was fought against Britian, and Trans-Jordan - she had never heard of Palestinians. Neither had my mother, who went to Israel in 1967 with the Israel peace corp. to help work with the refugees near Gaza. Both of them talk about the bedouins, who were nice and friendly with Jews, and the Arabs who stayed, all of which were happy to see their quality of life improve with Israel's creation.


Look, I appreciate that Miss Modular could admit that she doesn't understand exactly what's going on. It is confusing....
I mean, it's hard not to root for State sponsored Islamic seperatists that use children as human shields. Those human rights groups, peaceniks, moderate Muslims, and mainstream Islamic groups can't all be wrong. Their nationalism, occupations, and settlements are excempt! All that Holocaust turnspeak/revitionism, and 58 years of talking about pushing Jews into the ocean are just the natural result of being life long refugees with mortgages, dual citizenship, and humanitarian aid.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I mean, it's hard not to root for State sponsored Islamic seperatists that use children as human shields.

:lol

[mburbank]

You're right, Abcgdgxfdc. It IS confusing. I'm confused by why, when the situation is so obviously black and white, so clearly a case of Angels Vs. Monsters in the middle east and so obviously a case of good simple moral forthright Americans vs. self hating, cretinous peacenik zombies here in the USA this problem wasn't solved long ago by simple, cleansing violence.

Haven't we bent over backwards long enough? I think it's clear that if we just kill enough arabs all the other arabs will, if not love us, at least accept us.

I mean, those guys are stupid enough to believe tat if they kill enough of us, we'll be cowed by terror and give up? How stupid is that? Like bombing us and threatening us would ever make us change our minds! What, do they think we're weak?

All we need to do is destroy their infrastrcuture. A little shock and awe will turn them right around.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Max, they're destroying the infrastructure (at least initially) in order to prevent the transfer of the IDF soldiers.

The Lebanese government can't prevent this, and elements from outside of their country are encouraging it.

WHAT should Israel do? Prisoner swap? i know that'll ultimately be the deal, which I find unfortunate. If you're going to go in a do so much damage in Lebanon, shouldn't you help the Lebanese uphold their obligation to disarm ONE of their political parties?

Hezbollah has jeopardized Lebanese security, and they don't give a shit about the people in that country.

[Abcdxxxx]

Max, Ziggy ... do you guys think your responses are based in some reality that applies to the mid-east conflict?

There's only one side saying they want to destroy a country and cleanse an ethnicity, and it's not Israel saying it. So wake up.

Nobody is thrilled with the Lebanon incursion. There's no cheerleading. If Israel does this right, we'll have one less terrrorist organization, one less occupation, Syria will be taken down a notch, Israeli's won't have missiles going through their bedroom windows...and ultimately a Free Lebanon.

Got a problem with that?

[ziggytrix]

If Israel does this right, we'll have one less terrrorist organization, one less occupation, Syria will be taken down a notch, Israeli's won't have missiles going through their bedroom windows...and ultimately a Free Lebanon.

Got a problem with that?

Explain how bombing the whole of Lebanon back to the Stone Age destroys Hezbollah and frees Lebanon. Explain how their actions even remotely discourage rampant anti-Semitism in the region. Explain how that is based in any reality that applies to any modern conflict.

I've got a problem with blood for blood, because it never ends.

"There's only one side saying they want to destroy a country and cleanse an ethnicity, and it's not Israel saying it. So wake up. "

Actions speak MUCH louder than words. Israel may not be saying "we want to destroy Lebanon," but they are actively decimating them right now. Is it possible for Israel to destroy Hezbollah? Is it possible to do it without destroying Lebanon? Will these events advance or impede the causes of other antisemetic groups in the region?

I think those are all valid concerns.

[El Blanco]

Not to be an anal retentive nit-picker, but Arabs are semetic.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Explain how their actions even remotely discourage rampant anti-Semitism in the region. Explain how that is based in any reality that applies to any modern conflict.

I know these questions were directed at abc, but I would like to address this one.

I think your logic here seems to give very little credit to moderate Arabs and/or muslims.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be implying here that Israel responding to a nation that has openly been attacking them will only spread anti-semitism. How does that make sense? Is it because a Jew is dropping the bomb? Maybe a Jew made the decision to bomb?

This line of thought really bugs me. Israel does things that may offend people, so hey, no wonder they want to wipe out every Jew in the Middle East. I don't see the connection, and since Jordan, Egypt, and even Saudi Arabia have all defended Israel's right to take out Hezbollah, I struggle to see how this is a Jewish thing.

Let's not make excuses for ignorance.

[ziggytrix]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be implying here that Israel responding to a nation that has openly been attacking them will only spread anti-semitism.

It's not the response, but the degree of response. If you have a doctor who cures patients, he's a good doctor. If he kills the patient and then declares the disease eliminated, he's a quack.

I'm not saying Israel has gone too far - it's really too soon for that sort of statement to be made objectively. But I am concerned there is a fine line to tread between self-defense and a full-out offensive.

since Jordan, Egypt, and even Saudi Arabia have all defended Israel's right to take out Hezbollah

If it stops there, at taking out Hezbollah with minimal losses to the whole of Lebanon, then great!

[Preechr]

Hence: "The War on Terror."

This was misplaced. Had I timed it better, it might have made more sense. It applies again here, though, so let me try again...

Israel is not bombing all of Lebanon "into the stone age." Israel is targeting terrorist resources and structures, sometimes even regardless of whether they are located in, among or around civilians. The location of these targets was selected by the terrorists, not Israel. The location of the civilians are selected by the civilians, not Israel. You can bet your sweet ass if Hezbollah sets up shop next door to me and starts shooting shoulder fired rockets into Atlanta, I'm moving.

The War on Terror, despite the cynical argument that we cannot wage war on a tactic, is actually all about eliminating the last available tactic of international ne'er-do-wells and miscreants. Israel is helping such misguided folk to understand this tactic no longer serves their goals. Israel is making them look dead and silly. Dead and/or silly looking people cannot oppress the people of globalization's gap as easily as those that are alive and powerful looking. It's hard to lie your way out of getting turned into glass impurities by a multi-million-dollar smart bomb dropped from a billion-dollar jet while you were trying to get your two-dollar Chinese/Iranian rocket to work.

We and the Israelis, along with seven Brits and a couple of Aussies, are winning hearts and minds here. Iran and Syria are looking pretty darn impotent at the moment, and their wacked out little arms dealer, Kim Jong Il, isn't turning out to be as helpful as he promised.

This is the War on Terror. Ain't it great?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

This is a photo from a "pro-Lebanon" rally today in NYC. Check out what the sign all the way to the right says:

EDIT:

Nevermind, it won't show. :(

You can view it here (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060718/ids_photos_ts/r2054771025.jpg).

[Preechr]

Following the link, however, lets you see the rest of the pictures in that series, which then gives you a headache.

[Abcdxxxx]

That's nothing, check out San Francisco...

http://zombietime.com/israeli_consulate_protest_july_13_2006/IMG_7483.JPG

http://zombietime.com/israeli_consulate_protest_july_13_2006/time_for_the-ak.jpg

Oh, and somebody wanted some cheers?

Pro-Palestinian protesters:
"Black, red, brown, white!
Black, red, brown, white!
We support Hezbollah's fight!
We support Hezbollah's fight!
We support Hezbollah's fight!
We support Hezbollah's fight!
Black, red, green, blue!
Black, red, green, blue!
Black, red, green, blue!
Black, red, green, blue!
We support Hamas too!
We support Hamas too!
We support Hamas too!
We support Hamas too!
Viva viva Palestina!
Viva viva Palestina!
Viva viva Palestina!
Viva viva Palestina!
Viva viva Palestina!
Viva viva Palestina!
Viva viva Palestina!
Viva viva Palestina!
Black, red, green, white!
Black, red, brown, white!
Black, red, green, white!
Black, red, brown, white!
We support Hezbollah's fight!
We support Hezbollah's fight!
We support Hezbollah's fight!
We support Hezbollah's fight!
Black, red, green, blue!
Black, red, green, blue!
Black, red, green, blue!
Black, red, green, blue!
We support Hamas too!
We support Hamas too!
We support Hamas too!
We support Hamas too!"

Pro-Palestinian protesters:
"Long live the intifada!
Long live the intifada!
Long live the intifada!
Long live the intifada!
Intifada intifada!
Intifada intifada!
Intifada intifada!"

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Do you know what organization made those shirts?

They make me angry.

[Abcdxxxx]

ANSWER, with some local Islamic Supremacist group.

http://zombietime.com/israeli_consulate_protest_july_13_2006/

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I like the guy rubbing his fingers together doing the "money grubbing" thing towards the pro-Israeli crowd. Classy.

[Abcdxxxx]

Ziggy, I think it's your response which is disproportionate. Where's the worry and care about the Hizzbalah provocations? Syria's occupation? How about the Lebanese prisoners in Syria? If Syria wants to take support from Iran to fight a proxy war in Lebanon against Israel using a foreign army of occupation then that's the deal the Lebanese get dealt. If any of the arab states thought this was a BAD idea then they would have moved against it. Don't try to soft sell me the consequences of harboring murderous maniacs with the blood of thousands of civilians IN ANOTHER COUNTRY, to me. The truth is they don't care about Lebanon, nearly as much as they care about killing all Jews. Hell, all these groups and nations HATE EACH OTHER, but Pan-Arabism, and Pan-Islamism found that war against Jews can unite them all. Yeah, it's fucked that their human shields are paying the price, but it's even more fucked that nobody makes half as much of a fuss over the fact that Hamas and Hezzballah purposely use human shields to begin with. Less then 400 deaths in a week for a military strike of this size shows unprecedented accuracy. Israel has phoned ahead or sent warnings prior bomb airports and other populated zones. Maybe you need to look into what Lebanon really looked like in the Stone Ages, or even 1984 if you think that's where this is headed. Maybe the Lebanese should revisit that decision tree to ignore Hezbollah, now. Like I've said before, No one seemed to notice or care when Hezbollah was openly a foreign army of occupation in Lebanon engineering a billion dollar financial theft to transfer assets back to Syria. If that's something you enjoy, well, enjoy it then.

Explain how their actions even remotely discourage rampant anti-Semitism in the region.

Israel's actions do not promote anti-semitism. It's not their job to discourage anti-semitism. Jewish self determination is not a counter response to antisemitism either. I mean sure, the best way to fight anti-semitism is to just stop being Jewish, but Jews aren't going to lay down or take that self defeating advice. Again, are you suggesting that Arabs hate Jews and spread institutionalized antisemitism asa justified response to Jewish provocations. These rogue military strikes against Israel are fueld by hatred against Jews...and while you might be uncomfortable with that truth, it's not something Hezzballah or the Palestinian leadership have been ambigious about. Now think about what you're asking me....because it's about as absurd as asking a Black American what they did to discourage the KKK.


Will these events advance or impede the causes of other antisemetic groups in the region?

Learn your history. When Israel left their buffer zone occupation of Southern Lebanon it strengthened Hizzaballah, and the other antisemitic groups in the region. Check the timing of the second Intifadah too. Some even say that 9/11 happened in part due to the momentum these organizations felt once Israel left. What we know for certain is what hasn't worked...unilateral consentions, don't work. Negotiations with these groups, don't work. Prisoners trades, do not work. That stuff only reads as a victory to these people, and they will just keep on doing it, because well - it worked the first time. Any other suggestions? What has worked? Flexing their muscle. I'm sorry, it may not appeal to you, but it's a historical truth.

[Abcdxxxx]

I like the guy rubbing his fingers together doing the "money grubbing" thing towards the pro-Israeli crowd. Classy.

That would be my favorite too!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I know I know, this story is a little bit too cute for its own good, but I think it's worth noting. I think the girl in the story is right about the significance of two "high tech" nations going to war.


Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291962290&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

Israelis and Lebanese are still talking - on the Net


Sheera Claire Frenkel, THE JERUSALEM POST Jul. 21, 2006

As soon as the first rockets began hitting the North, Shira, a 17-year-old from Haifa, went straight to the message boards of www.beirut.com where she asked a question no politician has yet breached: After all this, would you date a Jew?

"I asked a lot of questions, and that was one of them," she said, adding that she felt the question gave her a broader sense of how Lebanese teens were feeling about Israelis as a whole. The responses she received were mixed, but the teen said that in all fairness, it was unlikely that she herself would date a Lebanese man.

Diplomatic talks between Israel and Lebanon may appear distant, but virtual talks between Lebanese and Israeli nationals are gathering steam daily on the Internet. Hundreds are signing on daily to blog, chat and post about the ongoing violence, with many finding new ways to relate to one another.

"It's important to note that this community existed for some time before the war broke out," said Lisa Goldman, who has used her blog, ontheface.blogware.com, to publicize Israeli-Lebanese blogging since the current crisis broke out. "We have tons of things in common. We come from two of the most liberal, educated countries in the Middle East. Many of us received a western education. We have talked, wrote, and dreamed about open borders between our countries."

Goldman described one experience in which she was sitting at her Tel Aviv home sending Instant Messages to a Beirut blogger as he described the sounds of rockets falling outside. "I think it is really important to point out that it is a history-making event - it is revolutionary," said Goldman. "The fact that the citizens of two warring countries are maintaining a dialogue while a war is going on cannot be ignored... [I] think it will be the most blogged war in history."

For many, the attraction of going on-line has to do with connecting with one another without the third party filter that a media outlet generally provides. "I wanted to know what they were thinking, especially people my age," Shira. "I don't know any politicians or important military guys. The only people for me to appeal to are my peers."

Shira said she had found interesting and informative arguments about the violence on the message boards. Many of the posts were "hateful," she said, comparing the IDF to Nazi forces and calling for a global Arab attack on Israel. "I ignored the hateful posts, and focused on the ones that seemed to go past the ignorance," said Shira. "I found people I could relate to... I wanted them to understand me so that I wouldn't be 'the enemy.'"

Middle Eastern bloggers sprang into action within hours of the initial violence, exchanging photos via Web sites such as www.flickr.com, and long message strings on sites such as lebanesebloggers.blogspot.com. There have also been chat rooms set up by Jewish and Lebanese bloggers to allow for real-time communication between the two communities.

Take for instance, some of the posts on the www.beirut.com message board under the Politics subtopic.

"The politicians today (as they always did in Lebanon!) are playing on people's fear. Fear of the people from another religion, from another community," wrote a poster named Nouce.

In response to a post from "DJ Glutton" saying, "Israel is our enemy, and never forget it," a poster calling himself "Bloody Roses" wrote: "Thirty years of Syrian occupation had damaging results. There are many problems between Lebanese that need to be solved once we are free...

Unfortunately, there are still many [in] Lebanon who are not working for Lebanese interests, but for Iranian and Syrians ones... Hizbullah is a real threat for Lebanon, they are a group of fanatics who are heavily armed."

One of the most popular posts was from a young man nicknamed "A.D.I.D.A.S" (All day I dream of sex). "We are all Lebanese. I suggest that, if the US and the other forces leave Leb[anon] alone politically, economically and whatever alone, we can live peacefully without any troubles."

"I like reading the posts because they sounded like the way people here talked about things," said Shira. She said that although she had spent the most time on the Politics message board, she had also found that she had a lot in common with Lebanese teens when she started reading the Arts, Culture and Entertainment boards. Like her own friends, most Lebanese teens did not appear willing to let their social lives come to a halt just because a war happened to be going on.

Although the Politics board of Beirut.com appears to have gathered steam in the wake of recent violence, by far the most popular boards remain the Dating and Jokes sections.

While several dozen jokes about Haifa and other northern Israeli communities have already been posted, it was a different Haifa - pop singer and model Hayfa Wehbeh - who stole the show with 1,403 jokes in her (or about her) honor.

[ziggytrix]

Don't try to soft sell me the consequences of harboring murderous maniacs with the blood of thousands of civilians IN ANOTHER COUNTRY, to me. The truth is they don't care about Lebanon, nearly as much as they care about killing all Jews. Hell, all these groups and nations HATE EACH OTHER, but Pan-Arabism, and Pan-Islamism found that war against Jews can unite them all. Yeah, it's fucked that their human shields are paying the price, but it's even more fucked that nobody makes half as much of a fuss over the fact that Hamas and Hezzballah purposely use human shields to begin with. Less then 400 deaths in a week for a military strike of this size shows unprecedented accuracy. Israel has phoned ahead or sent warnings prior bomb airports and other populated zones.


But that's not the way the Lebanese populace tells it. They say that Hezbollah gets to keep their arms because Israel could wipe out the Lebanese army very quickly, but they cannot wipe out guerilla fighters. I guess we're going to see rather shortly if that is true or not. Current reports are conflicting as to how much damage has actually been done to Hezbollah, and Israel certainly isn't done attacking.

This thing about the warnings though... I only heard about that yesterday. To me, that is very heartening, except for the chronology of it is a little unclear. They gave civillians warnings to get out of town BEFORE they blew up all the bridges and gas stations?

I don't really think that's the case, else why did we have to send the marines in to get our citizens out? But maybe it is... the mainstream news media is not the most reliable way to find out exactly what happened and exactly when. By the time the facts get straight, the story is "old news". :(


Again, are you suggesting that Arabs hate Jews and spread institutionalized antisemitism asa justified response to Jewish provocations.

I'm only suggesting that if somebody blew up my parents' house, while they were in it, I'd want revenge and/or justice, and so would any normal human being.


What we know for certain is what hasn't worked...unilateral consentions, don't work. Negotiations with these groups, don't work. Prisoners trades, do not work. That stuff only reads as a victory to these people, and they will just keep on doing it, because well - it worked the first time. Any other suggestions? What has worked? Flexing their muscle. I'm sorry, it may not appeal to you, but it's a historical truth.

That's an opinion, and you calling it a fact does not make it so. If "flexing their muscle" as you put it is what works, then why is Israel still the focus of so much violence? Israel has been "flexing it's muscle" almost non-stop since the days where it referred to it's muscle as the Haganah. Sure it solves problems in the short-term, but in the long term does it not add more fuel to the fire? What can put out this fire? Precision military strikes and walls with machine guns? You seem to be saying the only thing that can do this is for Jews to stop being Jewish. The idea that negotiations and peace agreements cannot work is a ridiculously self-defeating attitude that just happens to be shared by enough people (Jewish and Arab, alike) to make it a self-fulfilling statement.

It is my opinion that violence is inherently self-perpetuating. Again, I'll state as clearly as I can, it's still years too soon to know the full ramifications of these events, but even if a cease-fire is negotiated, it is a legitimate concern that Israeli attack on Lebanon will generate more anti-Israeli sentiment in the region than it will serve to defeat. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why you think that is no big deal.


Anyway, have a nice weekend! I'm going camping and won't be able to argue with ya for a few days. :)

[mburbank]

You aren't arguing with him. You are denying the truth. Plain and simple. It is beyond my understanding that he responds to you. You'd almost think there was a micron of doubt in him somehwere.

[Preechr]

He's "camping." He can't "hear" you.

[Abcdxxxx]

But that's not the way the Lebanese populace tells it.

You're going to hear varied opinions with the Lebanese, as there's no united populace. Check any Lebanese blogs, and it's skitzo city.

They say that Hezbollah gets to keep their arms because Israel could wipe out the Lebanese army very quickly, but they cannot wipe out guerilla fighters.

Eh? Israel is not at war with the Lebanese army. Now should that Army, which is half Shia, decide to fight alongside Hezzballah as they've threatened, then that's their choice. Israel is a temporary problem, so if their desire is really to fight for soveriegnty, then they picked the wrong side. If Lebanon can stand up against Israel, which they are threatening to do, then they sure as hell Hezzbalah.



This thing about the warnings though... I only heard about that yesterday. To me, that is very heartening, except for the chronology of it is a little unclear. They gave civillians warnings to get out of town BEFORE they blew up all the bridges and gas stations?

That's right. Israel's been doing that since the Irgun days bombing the King David Hotel. They dropped leaflets the first two days which said something like, if you're near Hezballah...run. Israel hit the airport several times, and the strikes on the first day were merely to the runway, not the terminals.

I don't really think that's the case, else why did we have to send the marines in to get our citizens out? But maybe it is...

It's easy to verify. Look into if you doubt it.
The US was the last to evacuate it's citizens. I'll also mention that the majority of those citizens were actually dual citizens, rather then Americans trapped abroad.





I'm only suggesting that if somebody blew up my parents' house, while they were in it, I'd want revenge and/or justice, and so would any normal human being.

Okay then use that reasoning to come to terms with why Israel is responding the way they are. Hizballah was not created as a reaction to any Israeli actions.



That's an opinion, and you calling it a fact does not make it so. If "flexing their muscle" as you put it is what works, then why is Israel still the focus of so much violence?

Then tell me when these "peace measures" have worked. If you look at the timeline the violence against Israel has always increased AFTER something like pulling out of Southern Lebanon, or Gaza. That is a fact, not an opinion. Israel has had it's hands tied for decades, ever since their last incursion into Lebanon, which was a mess for all involved.

Israel has been "flexing it's muscle" almost non-stop since the days where it referred to it's muscle as the Haganah.

That type of rhetoric is best saved for the ANSWER rallies. It's not accurate. If you really believe Israel intetions are devious or at least questionable, and you really believe they haven't stopped flexing their muscle since the 30's....then well.... why has the Arab population increased? Why have the Palestinians obtained land for the first time in history? Why are there more terror groups, and more attacks on Israelis then EVER before? What's stopping Israel from that genocide and apparthaid they keep getting accused of?



Sure it solves problems in the short-term, but in the long term does it not add more fuel to the fire? What can put out this fire? Precision military strikes and walls with machine guns?


Ask Egypt and Jordan.

You seem to be saying the only thing that can do this is for Jews to stop being Jewish. The idea that negotiations and peace agreements cannot work is a ridiculously self-defeating attitude that just happens to be shared by enough people (Jewish and Arab, alike) to make it a self-fulfilling statement.

Again, you're responding to me as if the issue is about land, or borders. It's not. It's about Jewish existance in the area. You can not negotiate with these fuckwads in hoods hanging from wires. A peace agreement with the Muslim Brotherhood and PLO spawned groups has NEVER meant anything. Ever. That's a sad truth...and if you're not aware of what Israel has done in the way of peace negotiations, then again, look into it.

People who hate Jews, or Christians or Sunni or Shia do so for irrational reasons. You're wondering why there isn't a rational solution? Well, that's why. If they wipe out the Jews, next it's going to be the Christians....who are dwindling int he region as it is...and once that's done, the big Sunni - Shia war would be next. It's easier for them to focus on the Jews though. The Holy War talk has been going on since before Israel's creation.

[ScruU2wice]

It's outright freakish how Israel and India got attacked, and yet Scru, you phrase it to sound like they're the aggressors causing trouble in line with korea flaunting long range missiles.

If you think I'm supporting either lebannon or israel your kidding yourself. there both on the same level in my book of I don't care. Israel has the right to defend its borders, but bombing and 1/8th of the population out of their homes, doesn't seem to be helping any in my short sighted logic. Niether are the rocket attacks by hezbollah that kill 2 arab kids, or the ambush of an Israeli armored unit, and the concurent rescue unit. or the bombing of an airport and/or anything that is moving. Pretty much the point I'm making is that I'm with Achimp on this one.

The reason I said India is pinning everything on pakistan, is because it haulted the uneasy peace talks that were going on, which is pretty much either one of those shitty governments had going for them.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

It's outright freakish how Israel and India got attacked, and yet Scru, you phrase it to sound like they're the aggressors causing trouble in line with korea flaunting long range missiles.

If you think I'm supporting either lebannon or israel your kidding yourself. there both on the same level in my book of I don't care. Israel has the right to defend its borders, but bombing and 1/8th of the population out of their homes, doesn't seem to be helping any in my short sighted logic. Niether are the rocket attacks by hezbollah that kill 2 arab kids, or the ambush of an Israeli armored unit, and the concurent rescue unit. or the bombing of an airport and/or anything that is moving. Pretty much the point I'm making is that I'm with Achimp on this one.

The reason I said India is pinning everything on pakistan, is because it haulted the uneasy peace talks that were going on, which is pretty much either one of those shitty governments had going for them.

India ought to be another thread alltogether. Everytime the disputed Cashmere region talks start coming somewhere some retard woman douses a train in gas and murders 200 people.

I think these terrorist actions make moderate islam look like inbred violent morons, which they are not. All they do is hurt their cause and further an untrue stereotype. Of course I could say the same about some Pentacostals and traditional christianity.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

India ought to be another thread alltogether. Everytime the disputed Cashmere region talks start coming somewhere some retard woman douses a train in gas and murders 200 people.

http://i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=22834

>:

[Abcdxxxx]

there both on the same level in my book of I don't care. .

You'd never know it from your comments. I hate that an Israeli bomb kills children, but I hate it even more that the international community (with an emphasis on the Muslim community) turns the other cheek to these terrorists using Hospitals and their Nurseries as their comand centers. They want you to be outraged when a child dies, and you should be - but the blame goes on the people who didn't follow the rules of war (they want a war right?) and avoid putting military outlets within civilian populations. I know, you said you don't care to make these distinctions, but your post didn't reflect your free to be you and me feelings towards the whole conflict.

[Abcdxxxx]

You aren't arguing with him. You are denying the truth.

Israel proper is under attack. Central Israel have been living in bomb shelters for a week. It's not ambigious as to why.

This article is from 1999...


In a scathing speech to a rally of more than 1,000 supporters, Hizbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said peace deals between Arabs and Israel would not bring stability to the Middle East or legitimacy to the Jewish state.

"There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel," he told the crowd. "Peace settlements will not change reality, which is that Israel is the enemy and that it will never be a neighbor or a nation.

"Peace will not wipe out the memory of the massacres it has committed ... And on this last day of the century, I promise Israel that it will see more suicide attacks, for we will write our history with blood," Nasrallah declared.
http://www.unb.ca/web/bruns/9900/issue14/intnews/israel.html

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I'm watching the Syrian ambassador to the U.S. on the Mclaughlin Hour right now.

Apparently all violence in the Middle East would stop if Israel left all "occupied lands".

Syria. Occupied land.

Huh. Who knew? So simple.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

I'm watching the Syrian ambassador to the U.S. on the Mclaughlin Hour right now.

Apparently all violence in the Middle East would stop if Israel left all "occupied lands".

Syria. Occupied land.

Huh. Who knew? So simple.

Well When they first started saying this Israel thought they were reffering to the land from the 6 day war, Israel has since gave up all that and then some. Now it's clear they want ALL the land and all jews to leave the area.

Yep that would end the war, terrorism, and suicide bombings all right. Of course you could say the same thing about america warring with the indians and telling them to go back across the alaskan landbridge cause that's basicly what they are saying.

[Abcdxxxx]

The issue with 1967 borders was a smoke screen. There was never any peace between 1949-1967. Arafat created his PLF (PLO) prior to 1967. PA websites, and Palestinian textbooks have included all of Israel proper in their maps of Palestine for a reason. There are lots of quotes from Arafat admitting that the green line was a tactical stepping stone to their real goals which were obscured from the PLO's original charter in time for Oslo. The insistance on the Right of Return also makes their goals pretty obvious. When Israel celebrates Independence Day, Palestinians take a moment of silence for what they call Al Nakba, "The Catastrophe" in what has been compared to open mocking of the Holocaust. The day commemorates the creation of Israel in 1948. Only peacenikes look past all these facts. It's harder to keep that charade going noow that Israel has made an effort to return to it's 1967 borders, and the attacks are centered on within Israel's original 1948 soveriegn borders which were never under dispute. They want the destruction of Israel, and while it was always implied, now they're fully admitting it.

[Geggy]

Page 51-52, written in 2000

http://newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

:rolleyes

And you wonder how us 9/11 "conspiracy kooks" predicted this would happen.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.character-costumes.com/c%20tiger%20thumbs%20up%20cut%20out.jpg

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

I wouldn't count on a damn thing coming out of the G8, or the UN for that matter, God bless their hearts.

I think there is an argument to be had over the measures Israel is taking, however a lot of the people I hear raising that issue are the same knee-jerk, ignorant idiots who wait in the high grass for the right moment to attack Israel. Like last night, a talk radio host was talking about how Israel creates this kind of Arab reaction, and of course, they've been doing it "since a bunch of European Jews decided they were entitled to Arab land."

I think we need to try to get France involved in this, and some kind of diplomatic emergency envoy needs to take place. Israel needs to be in the room, Lebanon needs to be in the room, and perhaps even Syria.

Lebanon MUST disarm Hezbollah, and control their soutrhern borders. If they can't do this b/c of Syria, or iran, then Israel has every right to secure the Lebanese border and cut off transfer to Syria/Iran.

I would like to see Israel stand down a bit, but I don't think that can happen unless these other things can be guaranteed.

Lebanon's army, being cripplied by years of civil war with extremists doesn't have the muscle to fight back. Isn't obvious they aren't retaliating against Israel for a reason? they want Hezballah out too.

As for France they've never been much help. Hell I've seen pics of Jaque Chirac showing Saddam around a nuclear facility. France has to much to gain from a hezballah style government. That type of goup is their biggest trade partners.

Iran is a huge problem too. It's kinda funny that the missiles Israel blew up en route to Lebanon were manufactured in china, and after the US halted the sale of missiles from china to iran in the 90s, iran was gonna give them to hezballah :P Iran is all "kill them all" after all hezballah is a party in Iran too in fact syria and iran are it's main centers politicly.

We need another Jimmy Carter to convince these people Israel has a right to live.

[Geggy]

(07-21) 04:00 PDT Jerusalem -- Israel's military response by air, land and sea to what it considered a provocation last week by Hezbollah militants is unfolding according to a plan finalized more than a year ago.

In the six years since Israel ended its military occupation of southern Lebanon, it watched warily as Hezbollah built up its military presence in the region. When Hezbollah militants kidnapped two Israeli soldiers last week, the Israeli military was ready to react almost instantly.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21/MNG2QK396D1.DTL

The Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah movement announced on Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. "Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon," a statement by Hezbollah said. "The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe place," it added. The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they "infiltrated" into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1742306,00050004.htm

The Lebanese Hezbollah movement announced Wednesday the arrest of two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were arrested as they entered the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border. Israeli aircraft were active in the air over southern Lebanon, police said, with jets bombing roads leading to the market town of Nabatiyeh, 60 kilometers south of Beirut.
http://english.bna.bh/?ID=47348

In the afternoon, the scene changed in the streets of southern Lebanon, which was the target of 32 Israeli raids that mainly targeted areas near the area where the two soldiers were captured in Aita al Chaab, close to the border with Israel.
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/article_1180404.php/Hezbollah_back_in_the_spotlight_after_capturing_so ldiers

It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html

In a deliberated way, Tsahal sent a commando in the Lebanese back-country to Aïta Al Chaab. It was attacked by Hezbollah, making two prisoners.
http://www.voltairenet.org/article142056.html

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.virtualservices.com.au/images/thumbs%20up.jpg

[Abcdxxxx]

unfolding according to a plan finalized more than a year ago.....When Hezbollah militants kidnapped two Israeli soldiers last week, the Israeli military was ready to react almost instantly.

OMG! You mean one of the largest militaries in the world had a contingency plan if attacked!? What happened prior to a year ago to make them come up with this plan? Oh right, 3 soldiers were kidnapped.

The Lebanese Hezbollah movement announced Wednesday the arrest of two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were arrested as they entered the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border. Israeli aircraft were active in the air over southern Lebanon, police said, with jets bombing roads leading to the market town of Nabatiyeh, 60 kilometers south of Beirut.
http://english.bna.bh/?ID=47348

Weird how a Bahraini paper can't distinguish between Hezaballah and Lebanese police. There's a difference, Geggy. They're not prisoners, either, they're hostages. Has the Red Cross been allowed to visit them? Is Hezzballah a recognized army? Do they follow the rules of war?

Anyway the provocation was the constant missile fire into Israel. The kidnappings are huge because they occured right after the Hamas abductions. You won't respond though. Retard.

[Abcdxxxx]

Lebanon's army, being cripplied by years of civil war with extremists doesn't have the muscle to fight back. Isn't obvious they aren't retaliating against Israel for a reason? they want Hezballah out too.

That was the common thinking before Lebanon threatened to defend their soveriegnty against an Israeli ground incursion. If they really wanted Hezaballah out they would be partnering with Israel. I believe most Lebanese want a free country though. Meaning free of Syria too.

We need another Jimmy Carter to convince these people Israel has a right to live.

Yikes maybe that was a joke? Although...Israel and Iran had all sorts of secret ties during the Carter years. What's really interesting is nobody has cut Israel's tap line yet. So whatever diplomacy is involved to get Israel their oil is still intact.

[derrida]

I wouldn't have a problem with this if Israel would just send in commandos (backed up by air support, obviously) rather that the current ineffective and needlessly deadly bombing campaign.

Either Isreali public opinion opposes risking military casualties, or, more likely, the Israeli military has fallen victim to the same "shock-and-awe" academic Air Force careerism that has plagued the US campaign in Iraq...

[Preechr]

What's really interesting is nobody has cut Israel's tap line yet. So whatever diplomacy is involved to get Israel their oil is still intact.

I heard a rumor a few years ago that Israel was working with the Kurds, who I guess don't share the rest of the region's animosity toward Jews, to run a pipeline from there. I have no idea whether there's been enough time to finish such a project, but I've never seen anything about it in the media version of the war.

[Geggy]

Wasn't Hariri assassinated one year ago which led to syria military being pressured into withdrawing from lebanon? If so, good war tactics by the israelis, me thinks. Showed that Israel was thinking ahead of time. By the way I'm not too sure if hezbollah is what the west paint them to be. How do you know they were created in order to protect their homeland from the israeli soldiers? Why do you think it's wrong of them to capture the israeli soldiers who happened to be inside the border of lebanon at the time? They turned the captured soldiers into the lebanon police and demand the lebanon civilians, men, women, children, alike whom are being held on as hostages by israel to be released in exchanged for the soldiers, how is that a justification for israel dropping U$ manfactured bombs onto beirut? It seems clear to me that they're not just interested in rescuing their own men, but have something bigger planned. Oh right, I just remembered now that it's a waste of time arguing with someone who think it's antisemetic to speak out israel's foriegn policy, duh.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I wouldn't have a problem with this if Israel would just send in commandos (backed up by air support, obviously) rather that the current ineffective and needlessly deadly bombing campaign.

You really have no clue as to how well armed and trained Hezbollah is, do you?

I love this argument, btw. It's the classic "let's not flat out say they shouldn't do anything, but throw them a bone" argument like calling the war on terror a "police matter."

Sending in commandos won't stop Hezbollah from transporting the soldiers into Syria and/or Iran.

And gee, what history lesson might teach us that simply sending "commandos" into Lebanon to rescue prisoners doesn't necessarily work?

[El Blanco]

What's really interesting is nobody has cut Israel's tap line yet. So whatever diplomacy is involved to get Israel their oil is still intact.

I heard a rumor a few years ago that Israel was working with the Kurds, who I guess don't share the rest of the region's animosity toward Jews, to run a pipeline from there. I have no idea whether there's been enough time to finish such a project, but I've never seen anything about it in the media version of the war.

I've heard that the US brokered a deal between the House of Saud and Israel. We figured that our two biggest allies in the region shouldn't be ready to annihilate each other with the billions of dollars in gear we sent them.

The SA government publicly condemns the terrorist attacks and doesn't fund them (officially anyway) and the IDF doesn't turn Riyad into a smoking crater. And all the commerce that goes along with allied nations.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Wasn't Hariri assassinated one year ago which led to syria military being pressured into withdrawing from lebanon? If so, good war tactics by the israelis, me thinks. Showed that Israel was thinking ahead of time. By the way I'm not too sure if hezbollah is what the west paint them to be. How do you know they were created in order to protect their homeland from the israeli soldiers? Why do you think it's wrong of them to capture the israeli soldiers who happened to be inside the border of lebanon at the time? They turned the captured soldiers into the lebanon police and demand the lebanon civilians, men, women, children, alike whom are being held on as hostages by israel to be released in exchanged for the soldiers, how is that a justification for israel dropping U$ manfactured bombs onto beirut? It seems clear to me that they're not just interested in rescuing their own men, but have something bigger planned. Oh right, I just remembered now that it's a waste of time arguing with someone who think it's antisemetic to speak out israel's foriegn policy, duh.

Seriously, you don't even deserve a fucking response here, so my suggestion is going to be that you do some research into the origin (start with the translation of their name), and stop being stupid.

Once you get those things down, get back to us.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

ugh, shame on me........


By the way I'm not too sure if hezbollah is what the west paint them to be.

maybe you missed it when abc posted it:

In a scathing speech to a rally of more than 1,000 supporters, Hizbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said peace deals between Arabs and Israel would not bring stability to the Middle East or legitimacy to the Jewish state.

"There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel," he told the crowd. "Peace settlements will not change reality, which is that Israel is the enemy and that it will never be a neighbor or a nation.

"Peace will not wipe out the memory of the massacres it has committed ... And on this last day of the century, I promise Israel that it will see more suicide attacks, for we will write our history with blood," Nasrallah declared.
http://www.unb.ca/web/bruns/9900/issue14/intnews/israel.html

[derrida]

I wouldn't have a problem with this if Israel would just send in commandos (backed up by air support, obviously) rather that the current ineffective and needlessly deadly bombing campaign.

You really have no clue as to how well armed and trained Hezbollah is, do you?

I love this argument, btw. It's the classic "let's not flat out say they shouldn't do anything, but throw them a bone" argument like calling the war on terror a "police matter."

Sending in commandos won't stop Hezbollah from transporting the soldiers into Syria and/or Iran.

And gee, what history lesson might teach us that simply sending "commandos" into Lebanon to rescue prisoners doesn't necessarily work?

Uh, the bombings have nothing to do with rescuing prisoners, right? It's incontestable that hezzbollah needs to have cataclysmic damage inflicted upon it, and the Israeli air force doesn't have the capacity to destroy iranian-built bunkers. Obviously the attacks on the logistical infrastructure should continue, just stop the bombing of civilian neighborhoods when the sole objective is to kill a terrorist leader whose precise location is not only unknown but for who it is impossible to confirm the kill due to insufficient ground intel.

The idea is to bust down doors or enter bunkers and kill hezzbollah members. And there would be enough of them to fend off attack until the airforce can make strafing runs on enemy positions.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Obviously the attacks on the logistical infrastructure should continue, just stop the bombing of civilian neighborhoods when the sole objective is to kill a terrorist leader whose precise location is not only unknown but for who it is impossible to confirm the kill due to insufficient ground intel.

The Israeli airforce has called off bombings where there were too many civilians to take the risk. Otherwise, they have dropped leaflets, and made phone calls in advance giving fair warning to get the hell out.

The problem is that Hezbollah has intentionally chosen these locations so that they could use civilian locations in order to protect themselves. You can't get hezbollah without damaging those locations and unfortunately harming civilians who option to stay despite warnings to leave.

The idea is to bust down doors or enter bunkers and kill hezzbollah members. And there would be enough of them to fend off attack until the airforce can make strafing runs on enemy positions.

This is precisely what the IDF is preparing to do, but you can't dismiss the significance of what Israel has already done to Hezbollah. The fact that everyone is surprised that Israel couldn't wipe out Hezbollah in a week is a testament to the Israeli military, but certainly not realistic.

Do you think going village to village, door to door won't cost innocent lives? Allow me to introduce you to my friend Iraq. Hezbollah will be wearing 8 year olds like an 80's sweater. The bombings have been very precise, and targeted.

The bottom line is Lebanon has no control over the southern portion of their country. They've allowed a political party to build a state within a state. If Hezbollah wants to make their own Islamo-fascist separatist version of Lebanon, well more power to them. But it's in the interest of LEBANON to root these elements out, and thus far they haven't done a damn thing. Cab drivers are charging 100% times more than normal to relocate people, and what does the Lebanese government do? Why aren't they assisting with evacuations, or defending their own nation, doing something?

If they could control their own elements, and would stop a militia from using their land to declare war on Israel, the bombings wouldn't have happened.

[Abcdxxxx]

derrida said:

I wouldn't have a problem with this if Israel would just send in commandos (backed up by air support, obviously) rather that the current ineffective and needlessly deadly bombing campaign.

To bad you already blew it by previously questionings israel's right to existance. Stop bullshitting. We don't know how effective the campaign has been. In 13 days or whatever it's been, we have less then 400 casualties total. The BBC has admitted that figure includes some combatants too. By all military accounts, the precision has been unprecedented. Effective? Too early to tell.

BUT... the majority of Lebanon is untouched. The majority of Beirut is untouched.

What I think you're asking for is a replay of the Lt. Colonol Ron Arad incident - the pilot has been missing since 1986, when his plane went down, and he was kidnapped by the Amal Milita. Nobody knows his whereabouts even today, though Israel tried diplomacy to negotiate for imformation. DIPLOMACY FAILED.

Maybe what you want to replay is the 1994 incident when Israel sent a spot team into the West Bank to retrieve a kidnapped soldier, Nachson Wachsman, who held up in a Bir Naballah house by the same terrorists that Rabin had allowed to return to the region as part of his peace offerings. The villagers surrounded the house, and attacked Israel's "commandos", and the soldier was executed before they made it inside. GROUND RESCUES FAILED.

See, the terrorists have long memories, and it's no accident they picked the 30th anniversary of Entebbe. They know that Israel has attempted every strategy possible to respond to kidnappings...and if that didn't work, they figured launching hundreds of bombs in a 48 hour period would do the trick. This isn't all about a few kidnappings, you do realize ?

Derrida also said: Obviously the attacks on the logistical infrastructure should continue, just stop the bombing of civilian neighborhoods

Again, because you don't get it. The kidnapping was one part of a larger planned provocation by Syria and Iranian backed Hezballah. You can not bomb Haifa repeatedly without expecting Israel to hit back. End of story.

I'll take you seriously when you start calling for Hezballah and Hamas to stop storing and shooting their rockets from civilian neighborhoods. Don't be a pawn. The use of Human Shields is the root of civilian casualties.

Preechr said : I heard a rumor a few years ago that Israel was working with the Kurds, who I guess don't share the rest of the region's animosity toward Jews, to run a pipeline from there.

Israel has for sure worked with Kurds in many capacities (there are even Israeli Kurds in the Mossad) but do the Kurds even have control of oil they could send Israel? I don't know. A pipeline would still have to go through either Syria, or Jordan, the same way Iran's does. The Iranian line is pretty safe, and anyway, they're not hitting military targets yet. Technion Institute is right below their target range, and they're aiming away from it (probably because they want to move right into it once they wipe the Jews out, just the same way Israel moved into Syria's officer club after 1967, and used it as a food court). It's clear they want to hit civilians (and they're loading up the rockets with poisoned bb's and scrap metal to wound as many people as possible) rather then military targets.

Geggy said: Wasn't Hariri assassinated one year ago

Yes, he was assassinated by Syria.
Your criticism of Israel's foriegn policy is probably last on the list of why you're an antisemite. Hunting down the one article that might say "Entebbe: an act of Israeli aggression" and deciding that's the truthfull one sure does make you suspect though.
Hizballah were not created to protect their homeland, no. They've set up a State within a State, and been ordered by the UN to leave. They have no legit right to kidnap anyone, or to launch over a thousand missiles into civilian parts of Israel.
Israel is not just rescuing their man. Not even Israel claims that. Yes they have something bigger planned. Again, Israel has made that clear. Want to know what that something bigger is? Living in peace.

[derrida]

Hold the phone, abc man. Did you miss the part where I said that hezzbollah needs to be wiped out of Lebanon? When were we talking about the actions Israel is taking to secure the prisoners? -because that sure as hell isn't what the bombing campaign is for.

Hezzbollah is a bunch of fucking assholes for operating in close proximity to civilians, hey! Dude my only dog in this fight lies in the fact that it's my own country that's supplying Israel with the armaments they're using. I think that gives me a right to be critical of their methods. Otherwise I probably would be just as silent about this as I am about say, the Congolese civil war.

To bad you already blew it by previously questionings israel's right to existance.

wait- didn't you recently try to tell me that if isreal ceased to exist palestinians would still be subject to checkpoints, curfews, etc?

Just like you can't say that life without an Israel, or IDF presence would change anything for Palestinian Arabs, or anyone in the Middle East for that matter.

[Abcdxxxx]

Erm. You seem to think I've said something contradictory. The typical pro-Palestine rally, and websites like Daily Kos call for Israel's destruction. There is a Left agenda which claims Israel is the root of the problems, and dismantling it will bring peace and justice to Palestinians. You've made comments which follow along with that thinking. They're wrong. You're wrong. Israel is the victim.

As for your sense of entitlement due to US sale of arms.... you might want to rethink how disproportionately silent you are about the Congolenese civil war according to your criteria, after all. Any-way we can talk about soveriegn nations, and their right to self defense, because that's always fun, or we can ponder who else is out there to disarm Hezballah (Israel would be my last choice, honestly) but until you realize this is the situation being dealt to Israel, and that they're not happy about it either - then you need to play catchup on your mid-east education and come back to the conversation later.

Here's an uncharacteristacally honest admission from the editor of the Arab Times - no friend of Israel.


http://www.arabtimesonline.com/arabtimes/opinion/view.asp?msgID=1242
No to Syria, Iran agents.
By Ahmed Al-Jarallah
Editor-in-Chief, the Arab Times


PEOPLE of Arab countries, especially the Lebanese and Palestinians, have been held hostage for a long time in the name of “resisting Israel.” Arab governments have been caught between political obligations and public opinion leading to more corruption in politics and economics. Forgetting the interests of their own countries the Hamas Movement and Hezbollah have gone to the extent of representing the interests of Iran and Syrian in their countries. These organizations have become the representatives of Syria and Iran without worrying about the consequences of their action.

Recently Hamas kidnapped an Israeli soldier and bombed Israeli settlements with locally manufactured missiles. Soon Hezbollah followed suit, kidnapping two Israeli soldiers. Both these organizations claimed they had kidnapped Israeli soldiers to exchange them for Arab prisoners who are being held in Israeli jails. The fact that Hamas and Hezbollah gave the same reason for kidnapping Israeli soldiers gives us a glimpse their agenda, which is similar to the one followed by Syria and Iran in their conflict with the United States.

While the people of Palestine and Lebanon are paying the price of this bloody conflict, the main players, who caused this conflict, are living in peace and asking for more oil from Arab countries to support the facade of resisting Israel. With the Palestinian Authority close to collapse and the Lebanese government beginning to give up responsibility for what is happening in its territory, Saudi Arabia has been forced to come out of its diplomatic routine and indirectly hold Hezbollah responsible for what is happening Lebanon.

Without mentioning Hezbollah by name Saudi Arabia blamed certain “elements” inside Lebanon for the violence with Israel and said “it is necessary to make a distinction between legitimate resistance and uncalculated adventures adopted by certain elements within Lebanon without the knowledge of legal Lebanese authorities.” While reiterating its support for Palestinian and Lebanese resistance against Israeli occupation, Saudi Arabia has clearly said it is against irresponsible adventures undertaken by certain elements in the region without consulting the legal authorities putting all Arab nations at risk. The Kingdom has also said “these elements must take responsibility for their irresponsible actions and they alone should end the crisis created by them.”
This angry response from Saudi Arabia has politically isolated Hezbollah and Hamas besides holding them responsible for their actions.

This attitude of Saudi Arabia, which has been doing all it can to protect the Arab world from Israeli aggression, is enough to unmask the adventurers, who have violated the rights of their own countries and tried put their people under the guardianship of foreign countries like Iran and Syria. A battle between supporters and opponents of these adventurers has begun, starting from Palestine to Tehran passing through Syria and Lebanon. This war was inevitable as the Lebanese government couldn’t bring Hezbollah within its authority and make it work for the interests of Lebanon. Similarly leader of the Palestinian Authority Mahmoud Abbas has been unable to rein in the Hamas Movement.

Unfortunately we must admit that in such a war the only way to get rid of “these irregular phenomena” is what Israel is doing. The operations of Israel in Gaza and Lebanon are in the interest of people of Arab countries and the international community.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

"Many times in the past, the Israeli peace movement has criticized Israeli military operations. Not this time. . . . This time, Israel is not invading Lebanon. It is defending itself from daily harassment and bombardment of dozens of our towns and villages. . . . There can be no moral equation between Hezbollah and Israel. Hezbollah is targeting Israeli civilians wherever they are, while Israel is targeting mostly Hezbollah."

"As one who rejects war, I regret Israel's heavy bombing of Lebanon last week, as I deplored Israeli attacks in population centers and on infrastructure in Gaza. . . . Yet, given the rejectionism of both Hamas and Hezbollah . . . is the path of negotiations actually open to Israel? . . . There is no moral equivalence between enemies here. . . . It seems urgent [to] reaffirm foundational support for Israel. . . . The fury of anti-Israel rage among Arabs and Muslims is accounted for only partially by the present conflict. It resuscitates . . . the long European habit of scapegoating Jews. . . . No one should think that embedded contempt for Jews -- anti-Semitism -- is not part of the current crisis."

[Abcdxxxx]

No idea about the authors background, but this editorial brings up many things I've been screaming about here for years...

Mark Steyn: If only they had refused to indulge Arafat
The myth that the Muslim world's problems are directly linked to the Palestinian question has gone up in flames, argues Mark Steyn
July 26, 2006
A FEW years back, when folks talked airily about "the Middle East peace process" and "a two-state solution", I used to say that the trouble was the Palestinians saw a two-state solution as an interim stage en route to a one-state solution. I underestimated Islamist depravity. As we now see in Gaza and southern Lebanon, any two-state solution would be an interim stage en route to a no-state solution.
In one of the most admirably straightforward of Islamist declarations, Hussein Massawi, the Hezbollah leader behind the slaughter of US and French forces 20 years ago, put it this way: "We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you."

Swell. But suppose he got his way, what then? Suppose every last Jew in Israel were dead or fled, what would rise in place of the Zionist entity? It would be something like the Hamas-Hezbollah terror squats in Gaza and Lebanon writ large. Hamas won a landslide in the Palestinian elections, and Hezbollah similarly won formal control of key Lebanese cabinet ministries. But they're not Mussolini: they have no interest in making the trains run on time. And, to be honest, who can blame them?

If you're a big-time terrorist mastermind, it's frankly a bit of a bore to find yourself deputy under-secretary at the ministry of pensions, particularly when you're no good at it, and no matter how lavishly the European Union throws money at you, there never seems to be any in the kitty when it comes to making the payroll. So, like a business that has over-diversified, Hamas and Hezbollah retreated to their core activity: Jew-killing.

In Causeries du Lundi, Charles-Augustin Sainte-Beuve recalls a Parisian dramatist watching the revolutionary mob rampaging through the street below and beaming: "See my pageant passing!" That's how opportunist Arabs and indulgent Europeans looked on the intifada and the terrorists and the schoolgirl suicide bombers: as a kind of uber-authentic piece of performance art with which to torment the Jews and the Americans. They never paused to ask themselves: Hey, what if it doesn't stop there?

Well, about 30 years too late, they're asking it now. For the first quarter-century of Israel's existence, the Arab states fought more or less conventional wars against the Zionists and kept losing. So then they figured it was easier to anoint a terrorist movement and in 1974 declared Yasser Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organisation to be the "sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people", which is quite a claim for an organisation then barely a decade old. Amazingly, the Arab League persuaded the UN, the EU, Bill Clinton and everyone else to go along with it and to treat the old monster as a head of state who lacked only a state to head.

It's true that many nationalist movements have found it convenient to adopt the guise of terrorists.

But, as the Palestinian movement descended from airline hijackings to the intifada to self-detonating in pizza parlours, it never occurred to its glamorous patrons to wonder if maybe this was, in fact, a terrorist movement conveniently adopting the guise of nationalism.

In 1971, in the lobby of the Cairo Sheraton, Palestinian terrorists shot Wasfi al-Tal, the prime minister of Jordan, at point-blank range. As he fell to the floor dying, one of his killers began drinking the blood gushing from his wounds. Doesn't that strike you as a little, um, overwrought? Three decades later, when bombs went off in Bali, killing hundreds of tourists plus local waiters and barmen, Bruce Haigh, a former Aussie diplomat in Indonesia, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, had no doubt where to put the blame. As he told Australia's Nine Network: "The root cause of this issue has been America's backing of Israel on Palestine."

Suppose this were true: that terrorists blew up Australian honeymooners and Scandinavian stoners in Balinese nightclubs because of "the Palestinian question". Doesn't this suggest that these people are, at a certain level, nuts? After all, there are plenty of Irish Republican Army sympathisers across the world (try making the Ulster Unionist case in a Boston bar), yet they never thought to protest against British rule in Northern Ireland by blowing up, say, German tourists in Thailand.

Yet the more the thin skein of Palestinian grievance was stretched to justify atrocities halfway around the world, the more the Arab League big-shot emirs and EU foreign ministers looked down from their windows and cooed, "See my parade passing!"

They've now belatedly realised they're at that stage in the creature feature where the monster has mutated into something bigger and crazier. Until the remarkably kinda-robust statement by the Group of Eight and the unprecedented denunciation of Hezbollah by the Arab League, the rule in any conflict in which Israel is involved - Israel v PLO, Israel v Lebanon, Israel v (Your Team Here) - is that the Jews are to blame. But Saudi-Egyptian-Jordanian opportunism on Palestine has caught up with them: it has finally dawned on them that a strategy of consciously avoiding resolution of the Palestinian question has helped deliver Gaza and Lebanon and Syria into the hands of a regime that's a far bigger threat to the Arab world than the Zionist entity.

Cairo and co grew so accustomed to whining about the Palestinian pseudo-crisis decade in, decade out, that it never occurred to them that they might face a real crisis one day: a Middle East dominated by an apocalyptic Iran and its local enforcers, in which Arab self-rule turns out to have been a mere interlude between the Ottoman sultans and the eternal eclipse of a Persian nuclear umbrella.

The Zionists got out of Gaza and it's now Talibanistan redux. The Zionists got out of Lebanon and the most powerful force in the country (with an ever-growing demographic advantage) are Iran's Shia enforcers. There haven't been any Zionists anywhere near Damascus in 60 years and Syria is in effect Iran's first Sunni Arab prison bitch. For the other regimes in the region, Gaza, Lebanon and Syria are dead states that have risen as vampires.

Meanwhile, Kofi Annan in a remarkable display of urgency (at least when compared with Sudan, Rwanda, Congo and others) is proposing apropos Israel and Hezbollah that UN peacekeepers go in to keep the peace not between two sovereign states but between a sovereign state and a usurper terrorist gang. Contemptible as he is, the secretary-general shows a shrewd understanding of the way the world is heading: already, non-state actors have more sophisticated rocketry than many EU nations; and if Iran has its way, its proxies will be implied nuclear powers. Maybe we should put them on the UN Security Council.

So, what is in reality Israel's first non-Arab war is a glimpse of the world the day after tomorrow: the EU and the Arab League won't quite spell it out but, to modify that Le Monde headline, they are all Jews now.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19910623-7583,00.html

[KevinTheOmnivore]

So, I'm not so sure about israel's strategy here. They seem to be feeling pressure internationally to ease up on what they're doing, which is understandable, but is the end desire now merely a "buffer" from Hezbollah? Now that it appears israel won't be expanding their offensive (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060727/D8J4B0BO0.html), I wonder if what they've accomplished is worth the damage that has been inflicted.

If the end goals were to get back their soldiers, disarm Hezbollah in compliance with the UN, and assist the Lebanese government in protecting their own borders, than I feel like they have failed at all three thus far. That's a lot of bombs, and a number of innocent lives lost, all for a "buffer".

The only thing these thugs respect is strength, and anything short of fully disarming Hezbollah will be viewed as a victory for Hezbollah and Ayatollah Geggy against the Zionist imperialists. The attacks will persist, if not in the form of rockets, but in other forms.

I'm guessing a lot of backroom dealings are going on, and some have argued that Syria needs to be a part of the discussion (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,640197787,00.html), which I suppose is a valid point.

I think Lebanon is a good country, and could be an amazing country without the Syiran/Iranian/armed Hezbollah elements holding such sway there. I don't see any deal coming out of this though that would fix these problems.

[Abcdxxxx]

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that "buffer zones" are a cop out. My guess is that Koffi Annan's stunt worked, and Israel's new government were never 100% resolved to complete the job in the first place.

There's been a fair amount of "what the fuck are they doing?" to the entire operation. "Why are they hitting Lebanon?" became a lot less of a question once Lebanon started to declare a less transparent unity with Hezballah.

Israel secured their main water source today, which might not matter on the World peace meter, but it's huge for the sake of Israel's own security. Other then that, there's too much talk of what Israel hasn't or can't do. Too much talk of Israel's failures in this response. Partly because they're not staging reports for CNN, and they actually release information to the press. There may be something to showing the Israeli army as human, since a huge criticism against Israel has always been that they are the ones who wield power in the region. This is the first time since 1973 that people are connecting the dots between small proxy armies and their huge State sponsors to show that it's Israel not versus a small downtrodden people but Israel vs. the rest of them. Note the Holy War talk is also back in fashion, so I think this war has helped to clarify the situation for the World. I doubt that's all by Israeli design though... so I haven't really answered your question...because we really don't know yet, and unfortunately, you make some good points.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

300+ kilos of explosives from Hezballah to Israel transported via the new long distance rockets hit Israel today. The aim? Not military strongholds or weapons depots, but the hospital and police station. What strange way for a non terrorist political party to attack eh?

In other news nearly 300 hezballah flag waving volunteers from Iran are gathering at the Turkey border to join the war effort. In order to get through Turkey they arent carrying weapons it remains to be seen whether or not Turkey will allow them to pass. They range in age from young teenagers to grandparents.

Also a great quote from an Iranian Cleric.

"humanity should think about a new united nations organization. Abody in which big powers veto smaller ones is defending criminals rather then human rights."

"You cannot deprive iran of it's rights to have non military nuclear power through resolutions passed by a broken inefficent security council"

I don't agree with allowing iran nukes, or defending hamas and hezballah, let alone china and korea's debaucles. But you gotta admit his statemnts about the UN and security council is 100% right.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

300+ kilos of explosives from Hezballah to Israel transported via the new long distance rockets hit Israel today. The aim? Not military strongholds or weapons depots, but the hospital and police station. What strange way for a non terrorist political party to attack eh?

Courage, I don't know where you read this, but it must be a mistake.

Only Israel and America target civilians. i mean, sure they drop leaflets, make phone calls, broadcast over TV and radio, and circulate news on the internet of bombings. They do that though only to appear to be concerned about human life.

As for Hezbollah-- I'm sure they just misfired every time. They are the party of Allah after all (not to be confused with God, which makes one think of Pat Robertson and pro-lifers, who are clearly a greater threat), so they would never do what you've proposed.

[Abcdxxxx]

Hospitals and police stations, huh? At least they're getting closer to something which could be vaguely construed as a military target. Maybe that's what Nasrallah meant by "beyond, beyond" Haifa.

At least Kofi finally removed the UN human shields from the battle field.

http://www.cjnews.com/photos/aug15/flags.jpg

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/487/re10.jpg

[El Blanco]

And only two weeks after they requested to leave and a few days after they were killed.

[ScruU2wice]

http://yad-vashem.org.il/about_yad/magazine/magazine_37/images_37/d-mus-kantor.jpg

http://www.un.org/av/photo/unhq/images/une102.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1390000/images/_1393870_annan300.jpg

http://www.shunpiking.com/dop/images/annanarafat483_001.jpg

Kofi annan is total peace brokering slut :X

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Yeah, because treating terrorists like Arafat and Nasrallah as heads of state has brought about a whole lot of peace.

[ScruU2wice]

and ignoring them and refusing to acknowledge them as leaders of anything has done much of the same...

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Tell me when Arafat was ignored, or insufficiently heard, in your opinion. I'm curious, because I was under the impression that he was the primary representative in discussions with Israel and/or America.

hezbollah should be ignored. The U.S. has said it, and the UN has also said it (remember 1559?). maybe in your mind it makes sense to negotiate with terrorists, but perhaps you lack the moral clarity to see the difference between them and Israel in the first place.

[ScruU2wice]

before ABC calls me a pro-palestinian anti-semite, I'd like to say that knowing both pro-israeli and pro-palestinian people, I don't doubt that there will ever be peace in the middle east, because of the very fact that people on both sides label everyone else a terrorist.

There will always be people who will refuse to acknowledge Israel as a soveirgn state. There is no possible way any amount of bombs any combination of words and any mixture of naurcotics will sway them to accept and trust Jewish people. I know someone who fucking boycotted any movie made by a Jew, and is constantly ranting on and on about Jewish conspiracies. This is just the way the way they were raised and the thinking that has been engrained into there narrow perspectives.

The jewish friends I know will never ever, trust palestinian for this reason. They will never ever consider them as anything but terrorist trying to abolish israel. and probably rightfully so. Again there is no amount of evidence that will get these people to trust palestinians or see them as anything but terrorists.

So I always find it the slightest bit refereshing to see someone trying to get a cease fire, and why I'm a little angsty about a picture of Kofi Annan shaking hands with a leader of group at war as sign that their bedfellows. Since it is his job to meet people and shake hands and try to talk them out of blowing shit up, especially if it's 4 of his UN observers.

But you know endless bloodshed of innocent civilians both israeli and lebanese under the pretense of collateral damage is cool too.

[ScruU2wice]

hezbollah should be ignored.

I'm not trying to cure the patient I'm trying to cure the symptom. You can bomb the "infastructure" of hezbollah which probably will be good thing minus the casualties. But you'll get a new group or 2 new groups with the same ideaology, since it was democratically elected.

But if you get hezbollah to stop firing rockets and return the two israeli soldiers they are probably regretting having kidnapped, then maybe you can maybe stop the immediate violence.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

innocent people die in war. Many of them died during World War II, which I suppose you also would've opposed, Mr. Chamberlain. Hezbollah started a war with Israel, claiming to speak on the behalf of Lebanon. Lebanon has failed to deal with Hezbollah, and has instead opted to blame Israel. That's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that Israel is perfectly entitled to at the very least protect their borders, protect their citizens, and respond to aggression. Rather than appeasing these thugs, giving them a cookie so that they can do it again in 5-10 years, they have decided to do away with them entirely. The UN told the Lebanese government to do this two years ago, and they either couldn't or refused to. Israel will do it for them.

Peace agreements are great, when you have two partners who actually desire peace. Hezbollah, Hamas, and every other militant, radical muslim doesn't want peace. They want Israel gone. Why should Israel negotiate with them any longer (since they have in fact negotiated in the past with these monsters, to no avail)?

People can think whateve they like. Anti-semitism, much like racism, sexism, and every other "ism", exist all around the world. Extremist Arabs and/or muslims can hate whoever they like, but if they choose to target civilians in their attempt to do rid the Middle East of the Jews, then they need to be stopped. No discussion, just stopped. When they can put down their weapons, acknowledge Israel, and stop reverting to terrorism, then there can be discussion (again, ask Jordan and Egypt).

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

I hear the UN wants to send 200 lightly armed peace keeping troops at the border, as if they can slow the rockets, planes and artillery. IMO these trops would do more good gaurding the wall in Gaza and patrolling helping make sure check points are enforced and suicide bombers stay on their side of the fence.

As for the suggested buffer zone on the border i think that's nearly worthless with these long rage rockets, but a big tall border fence with posted gaurds or even snipers i they wanna take out a rocketeer(thats what you call the rocket guys right?) after he fires that sounds like a great idea.

When Egypt sets up a wall between them and Gaza it's just border security, when israel does it they call it aparthied. I think Nelson Mandella would spit in the face of any idiot who called the wall aparthied, the US mexican border is closer to that. it's just a secure border, good fences make good neighbours (or at least it makes their terrorism a little more difficult)

[ScruU2wice]

innocent people die in war. Many of them died during World War II, which I suppose you also would've opposed, Mr. Chamberlain.

I'm not wholely passionate about this topic so you can question my morality all you want. Innocent people dying in war is only the visible consequence of war, I'm saying that the surviving families and friends will become card carrying muslim radicalists. Just look at the Israeli arabs who lost their two boys. They blame it all on israel, when it was hezbollah rockets that killed their kids. The 1/8th of the population that's been been left homeless won't blame hezbollah.

I'm saying that more civilians that die the worse it looks on israel. Which is really sad because Israel maybe bombing accidentally and they get blasted, when Hezbollah aims them at hospitals and civilians, and doesn't loose the hearts of any. Israel might win one battle but hezbollah will win more elections, which of course is the overall big problem.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Hizbollah can win elections, and Lebanon can hate Israel. Super.

If you attack a nation, or if you attack their populous, then you need to be stopped. I certainly think there is a systemic problem in the Arab world when they flock to radical Islam and anti-semitism to solve their problems. When the Lebanese people elect a party that wants to destroy another nation b/c they are Jewish, well yeah, that's a problem.

But there's not so much that Israel or America can do about that right now. Rolling over and waiting for the next pogrom won't fix it, either.

You stop them. You make them understand that violent actions, especially against civilians, carry violent consequences. You teach them a lesson, and maybe they'll learn not to elect radicals and homicidal maniacs into power (if the vote is even something they have extended to them). Hizbollah holds what, 30% of the seats in Lebanon? They don't even hold a majority in the government, and they took it upon themselves to declare war on another country.

That's not just Hizbollah's problem, it's also Lebanon's, and they need to deal with it.

[Abcdxxxx]

What do Democratic countries do when hit with 1500 rockets?

When has anyone said "oh they shouldn't bomb that Kibbutz, it's only going to further militarize those farmers" or "if they keep shooting rockets into Jewish nursery schools, it's going to fuel a new generation of extremists". An Israeli doctor was kidnapped in the WB yesterday, and found burned alive in the trunk of his car simply because he was a Jew. He was a father of four children. What are the chances they're going to grow up to be suicide bombers?

There is only so much you can bend over backwards to avoid (or ratioanlize) admitting the enemy has an Islamist agenda of fascism and genocide. When has that ever improved life for the Palestinians? I keep asking the same questions hoping it might inspire some logic here. Arafat was actually irrelevant for years, banished to Tunisia...what did bringing him back to treat him like an ambassador do but flame the fire? Hezbollah don't have a mission to the UN. Annan has no business treating an army who wear hoods in public with diplomatic relations. It's a farce! You know what does juice them up? Saying they're undefeatable. Saying they're no worse then a Democratic country that has made unilateral gestures towards peace. Pretending Hizbollah have moderate goals which are rational, and diplomatic... THAT'S the problem.

P.S there are plenty of Jews and Arabs who trust each other.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

thsi sin't so much about jews and arabs (well it is in THIS area in question) it's about Jews and Wahabi Islam. This particular denomination includes racism against jews in it's main doctrine.

Not all Arabs hate jews, but any TRUE follower of Wahabi islaam is in their doctrine anti-semitic, just like any fundamentalist christian believes in the virgin birth, it's a fundament of the faith. I would like to point out there is a HUGe difference between Wahabi and traditional islaam. I'm also not quite sure why that mouthpiece for the alabama based Nation of islam is so racist but i doubt its a fundament of nation of islam, just that that guy is an asshole.

[Abcdxxxx]

Before it was Islamic supremacism it was Marxist Pan-Arabism - the constant theme is a form of antisemitic Nazism, and it's no secret where it's coming from or who promotes it. Silence equals guilt, and there are few people willing to defend the rights of Jews to simply EXIST.

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stor...EL.3d89c1.html
BREAKING NEWS:
One dead, at least five injured in shooting at Jewish Federation in Seattle

06:26 PM PDT on Friday, July 28, 2006
KING5.com and Wire Reports
Video
Raw video shows chaotic scene
Victims flee building
More ... Custom Video ...
SEATTLE – One person has been killed and at least five others have been injured in a shooting at the Jewish Federation at 2031 Third Ave. in downtown Seattle. One suspect has been taken into custody.

Police took one person into custody and said he surrendered peacefully. Seattle police spokesman Rich Pruitt said police are confident that only one shooter was involved.

Sources told KING 5 the suspect is a 31-year-old Pakistani man with a criminal background. He is from the Pasco but his citizenship is unknown. Officials are on the way to the Pasco to interview his family.

According to the Seattle Times, a man got through security at the Jewish Federation and told staff members, "I'm a Muslim American; I'm angry at Israel," then began shooting, according to Amy Wasser-Simpson, the vice president for planning and community services for the Jewish Federation.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

i never really understood anti-semitism. redneck christians who know nothing of theology say "duh they killed Jesus" Muslims say " that's OUR land, stop fighting back" Why do people hate jews anyway?

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

aside from believing fosters means beer, Australians also believe peace means rock throwing, and Crocodile hunter means good watching.

SYDNEY - Prime Minister John Howard was mobbed and police clashed with Hezbollah supporters and other anti-Israel protesters in the west coast Australian city of Perth on Saturday.


Howard’s car was damaged by demonstrators as he left a meeting. Around 200 protesters waving Lebanese and Palestinian flags and shouting “we want peace” punched, kicked and threw projectiles at the vehicle as police struggled to keep order.

Police wrestled protesters to the ground and there was at least one arrest.

Protest organizer Muhammad el-Khatib said that he had family in Lebanon and that the Australian government should try and broker a ceasefire.

“There are mothers watching their children die,” el-Khatib told Australia’s AAP news agency. “Hezbollah is protecting Lebanon, they are freedom fighters not terrorists.” (my note: freedom from what? Israelis got sick of watching their children die at the hands of terrorsits. Hezballah is a disease thatis RUINING lebanon and may cost the state it's sovereignity.)

The military wing of Hezbollah is banned in Australia but the political organization is not.

The current crisis was sparked when Hezbollah launched a cross- border raid July 12 in which eight Israeli soldiers were killed and two abducted.

Australia, a close ally of the United States, has been supportive of Israel’s right to defend itself.

Defence Minister Brendan Nelson said last week that Israel faced a threat to its existence from Hezbollah and Hamas, the militant Palestinian movement, which both receive support from Iran and Syria.

“It’s very important that Australians appreciate, no matter how affronted we are by what Israel is doing, that they are dealing with Hezbollah and Hamas, who are committed to the abolition of Israel as a state,” the defence minister said.

Along with the US, Australia has urged that long-term problems be addressed and has not called for a ceasefire.

“We should feel enormous sympathy for the everyday Lebanese person,” Nelson said. “We should also feel some sympathy for the Lebanese government. But at the moment let us hope an appropriate longstanding resolution comes to this conflict. We can’t afford to have a situation where band-aids are being applied to it again.”

[Abcdxxxx]

They're supporting a fascist fundamentalist organization that proudly waves AK-47's on their flag. If that's what their "peace movement" stands behind, then we shouldn't be shocked when they resort to violent means.

Do they realize that by default this makes them Pro- ethnic cleansing of Jews, Druze, and Kurds, Pro-religious oppression, Pro- child abuse, Pro-totalitarianism, Pro-gender, and sexuality oppression, Pro-hate indoctrinization, Pro-Imperialism, Pro-Holy War, pro-World War, Pro-idiot !??!

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

They're supporting a fascist fundamentalist organization that proudly waves AK-47's on their flag. If that's what their "peace movement" stands behind, then we shouldn't be shocked when they resort to violent means.

Do they realize that by default this makes them Pro- ethnic cleansing of Jews, Druze, and Kurds, Pro-religious oppression, Pro- child abuse, Pro-totalitarianism, Pro-gender, and sexuality oppression, Pro-hate indoctrinization, Pro-Imperialism, Pro-Holy War, pro-World War, Pro-idiot !??!

they are australian.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Howard’s car was damaged by demonstrators as he left a meeting. Around 200 protesters waving Lebanese and Palestinian flags and shouting “we want peace” punched, kicked and threw projectiles at the vehicle as police struggled to keep order.

:lol

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Now here's an interesting thing on the bombing in Canaa of Galillee. Reports indicate the building collapsed at 8:00 AM. The bombs hit it at 1:00 AM. after drones spotted Hezballah troops going in.

Was there a battle afterwards that i don't know about? Cause 7 hours afterwards is a little odd. I'm guessing most of the people died in the collapse not the bombing. Isn't it odd? Might a fire battle have done the final structural damage like a stray grenade? Or did everyone assume it was safe to go back in for the night and stay in the basement for safety and it collapsed in the morning?

Well it is being investigated.

[El Blanco]

Don't be stupid. This just proves that Dick Cheney planted explosives in the building. Then, the head of Pakistan's intelligence went to Lebanon so he could personally hit the detonator. You can see the proof in a picture of a shirtless dude with a gimp mask standing in the building before it collapsed. Israel shelling the ever loving fuck out of the area was just a cover.

Be careful of what you hear and read.

[Abcdxxxx]

At least those Hezzballah folks aren't resorting to exploiting civilians in death or anything.....

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html

(warning, graphic photos)

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I think there is something suspicious about the time of the strike and the time of the building collapse, but to speculate on what may have been in the building at this point would be just that....speculation. Rest assured that Hezbollah will probably make it as difficult as possible to actually conduct a serious investigation. They have their new pic for their T-Shirts, and they won't jeopardize that.

Also on Qana-- Ralph Peters of the NY Post has a good piece today (http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/the_road_to_qana_opedcolumnists_ralph_peters.htm) on the failure of air war. It really is a crap shoot though, b/c if they use precision bombs sold to them by the U.$., well then they are trying to blow up children (gimme the logic in that sort of reasoning). If they send a massive ground offensive, go door to door, innocent people will die. The civilian casualties will go up b/c Hezbollah is hiding amongst them. More troops will also die.

No matter what the circumstances in Qana, it's horrible and tragic. But this doesn't change the fact that what at the very worst is a horrible, horrible mistake on the part of the IAF is not the norm in the way they have conducted this war. They have used targeted bombings that have now, according to reports, disabled 2/3 of Hezbollah's rocket launching capability (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744719.html). Folks might want to keep in mind (b/c the media seems to be having a hard time with it) that this was started by hezbollah, and if all that comes of this is a prisoner swap with a terrorist politcal party, than the tragedy in Qana will really have been a tragedy.

The "question about terrorism," really being wouldn't you hurt innocent people if you felt cornered, is a moot one. Even though Hezbollah has limited capabilities (although not nearly to the degree often portrayed), they are trying their hardest to take out as many innocents as possible. They fill their rockets with ball bearings and shrapnel (http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0801tue1-01.html), all with the intention of specifically TARGETING innocent lives in northern Israel. Israel has dropped fliers, alerted the press, made phone calls, and given warnings days in advance (http://www.localnewswatch.com/benton/stories/index.php?action=fullnews&id=206798).

Despite the way the enemy and our own shameful Left will paint this, this was not an invasion on Israel's part. Israel will push back Hezbollah, and hopefully destroy them. As crass as it may sound, it isn't Israel's responsibility to care about what people in Lebanon, Syria, Iran, or even in the UN think of them. If they cared about those things, they would still find themselves engaged in perpetual war (since no condemnation of Israel ever seems to follow with a plan to deal with terrorism and acts of war against Israel).

one side gives warnings days in advance, and uses targeted bombings. The other loads sharp oblects and strip metal into their rockets in order to maximize suffering. That is your choice.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I also think it's important to touch upon my old favorite in these matters, and that's perspective.

Take for example what two pundits are saying about Israel's war with Hezbollah. For starters, you have Richard Cohen, a liberal, a critic of war, and yes, a Jew:

LINK (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/08/the_worlds_mel_gibson_moment.html)

A constant state of war makes a country mad. It unnerves it, unhinges it --which is what happened here after 9/11. You only have to read the Israeli press to get a sense of the fury, the anger, the hurt of a people who see their enemy lurking among civilians, their weapons placed in and among children -- and feel the wrath of the world for hitting back. The strike into Lebanon has almost universal support in Israel, the most contentious of all societies, because of a deep and justifiable sense of grievance. What more can it do? What else will be asked of it? Who picked this fight, anyway?

The world has a responsibility here. If it can no longer put up with Israeli excess, with its (understandable) policy to strike back disproportionately, then it has to put an end to the slow bleeding of that country. The world -- the U.N. -- created Israel. It ought to safeguard it. It is the only way.

Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000. It pulled out of Gaza last year. It was making plans to pull out of most of the West Bank. Still, the suicide bombings continue, the rockets keep coming down and soldiers get kidnapped, maybe never to be returned. Yet the world, appalled at what it can see on television and untroubled by what it cannot, has had it with Israel. Mel Gibson would understand.

Contrast that with the opinion of Pat Buchanan, a conservative, an America 1ster, and frankly an anti-semite:

LINK (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/08/the_moral_culpability_for_qana.html)

Within 48 hours, it was apparent Israel was exploiting Hezbollah's attack to execute a preconceived military plan to destroy Lebanon -- i.e, the collective punishment of a people and nation for the crimes of a renegade militia they could not control. It was the moral equivalent of a municipal police going berserk, shooting, killing and ravaging an African-American community, because Black Panthers had ambushed and killed cops.

If Israel is not in violation of the principle of proportionality, by which Christians are to judge the conduct of a just war, what can that term mean? There are 600 civilian dead in Lebanon, 19 in Israel, a ratio of 30-1, though Hezbollah is firing unguided rockets, while Israel is using precision-guided munitions.

(NOTE: The black panther comment is humorous, if not striking, because urban police departments indeed DID do precisely what he said. But since Buchanan's take on the current conflict involving Jews is so off, I can hardly hold his history accountable when it comes to a bunch of blacks he could probably give two shits about)

The United States has the option here to stand with Israel not merely for the preservation of a Jewish state, but for a liberal democracy (primarily secular), surrounded by totalitarianism.

Who's right, those who fight on, and grieve when they error as in Qana, or those who celebrate the massacres in Qana? Just b/c hezbollah is too inept to actually hit the children of Haifa doesn't mean they wouldn't like to, and if they could, they'd do it again and again and again....

[Dole]

grieve when they error

what a comfort that must be to the lebanese.


Have you noticed its almost entirely you and abcd posting on this board these days? Ever consider why?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Well, that frankly isn't true, but even if it were I'd say it's because people like you don't actually put together a solid argument. So you're instead relegated to making snide, cut-n-run sort of remarks.

Sound about right?

[Abcdxxxx]

Dole, you just make some random post every couple weeks and run for cover. If there's anything you disagree with, then say it. Your inability to respond with a counterpoint just tells me it's becoming harder for you to disagree with us.

[Preechr]

You stop them. You make them understand that violent actions, especially against civilians, carry violent consequences. You teach them a lesson, and maybe they'll learn not to elect radicals and homicidal maniacs into power (if the vote is even something they have extended to them).

THAT's the War on Terror. Any talk of "proportionate response" is just ridiculous in a discussion of Israel's reaction to terrorism. At this point, Israelis have shown a tremendous amount of patience for the bleeding hearts of the world, like ziggy, that for some reason keep insisting that a "cease fire" means peace. At this point, Israel has, despite the enormous Israeli body count required to do so, proven land for peace doesn't work because their opponents prefer death and slavery to land OR peace or anything else.

I'll be among the last to approve of any innocent person's death for any reason. Anyone dying in service as a human shield right now is not an innocent, in my opinion. I'm sorry, but includes the folks that died in the Qana incident. Those that are dying while waiting in line to apply for a police job in Iraq or Afghanistan I consider to be inocent, and the Jews aren't the ones killing them.

Eventually, those that would use terror to influence politics will be made to realize that tactic just doesn't work anymore. God forbid they adopt Democracy as their next tactic. Isn't it noce for the innocents of the world that after Fascism, Nazism, Marxism, Terrorism and all those other "-isms" Kevin was talking about Democracy and all it's inherent freedoms are about the only viable option left?

[Ant10708]

Dole, you just make some random post every couple weeks and run for cover. If there's anything you disagree with, then say it. Your inability to respond with a counterpoint just tells me it's becoming harder for you to disagree with us.Zing

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Well, that frankly isn't true, but even if it were I'd say it's because people like you don't actually put together a solid argument. So you're instead relegated to making snide, cut-n-run sort of remarks.

Sound about right?

I dunno from tiem to time i post stories and get my neck sore nodding in agreement with those two. I was amazed to learn i was wrong about the minimum wage thing when we saw the studies.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

if only the hezballah war machine was as good as their popaganda machine.

If you believe their reports they've taken down an israeli helicopter, collapsed a building with IDF troops hiding in it, killed 35 isaelis in one battle and just last week sunk a battleship with 350 people on it that doesn't even exist.

Do these guys work for Geraldo or what? That and reports of "dude we are like totally winning this war"

The ad thing is how many news sites have had to retrat those stories after they realized that they were bogus. Or as it's called now pulling a new york times.

[Preechr]

Did you get that book yet?

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

You stop them. You make them understand that violent actions, especially against civilians, carry violent consequences. You teach them a lesson, and maybe they'll learn not to elect radicals and homicidal maniacs into power (if the vote is even something they have extended to them).

THAT's the War on Terror. Any talk of "proportionate response" is just ridiculous in a discussion of Israel's reaction to terrorism. At this point, Israelis have shown a tremendous amount of patience for the bleeding hearts of the world, like ziggy, that for some reason keep insisting that a "cease fire" means peace. At this point, Israel has, despite the enormous Israeli body count required to do so, proven land for peace doesn't work because their opponents prefer death and slavery to land OR peace or anything else.

I'll be among the last to approve of any innocent person's death for any reason. Anyone dying in service as a human shield right now is not an innocent, in my opinion. I'm sorry, but includes the folks that died in the Qana incident. Those that are dying while waiting in line to apply for a police job in Iraq or Afghanistan I consider to be inocent, and the Jews aren't the ones killing them.

Eventually, those that would use terror to influence politics will be made to realize that tactic just doesn't work anymore. God forbid they adopt Democracy as their next tactic. Isn't it noce for the innocents of the world that after Fascism, Nazism, Marxism, Terrorism and all those other "-isms" Kevin was talking about Democracy and all it's inherent freedoms are about the only viable option left?

Tell that to the marxist and islamist rebels in the philipines. Sometimes democracy doesn't work as it should and they erroneously believe communism or an islamic republic is the answer. Of course i think the current financial situation there is not due to democracy but really bad business and not enough free enterprise. the fast food workers have to sign a 6 month contract and the unemployment rate is 50%. If you want more jobs make it easier to run a business and hire people. They aren't lazy over there they just have a lack of oppertunity and to much government red tape.

Communism is only gonna make it worse and an islamic republic is just completely unrelated to the subject at hand.

No matter what you belief, terrorism is not going to achieve your goals (unless your the PLO, they seem to get all they want that way)

[Preechr]

Did you check the library?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Zombie Time has become my new favorite website....

http://www.zombietime.com/solidarity_with_israel/P1010394.JPG

All class.

The chant they had going on was cool, too:

(Man repeatedly giving Nazi salute.)
"We don't care what you say,
intifada all the way
We don't care what you say,
Hezbollah all the way
We don't care what you say,
Hezbollah all the way
Palestine will be free
Palestine will be free
From the river to the sea
From the river to the sea
Palestine will be free
Palestine will be free..."

[KevinTheOmnivore]

And this is encouraging, from a LIBERAL DEMOCRAT.....

Dianne Feinstein: "I am very proud to be here today to join with you as we stand in support and solidarity with the state of Israel. The United States and Israel have been staunch allies now for over 50 years. We share common values: freedom, democracy, the rule of law. And time after time we have rallied to each other's side in defense of our values.
...
Let there be no doubt: Israel was subjected to unprovoked, unjustified attacks from terrorists on both the north and southern borders. Remember, it was Israel that pulled out of Lebanon. Remember, it was Israel that pulled out of Gaza, that brought her people out, that dismantled the synagogues, that moved out thousands of people from Gaza. And the result on both the north and the south have been rocket attacks. Rocket attacks from Lebanon, and rocket attacks from Gaza. Members of Hamas, that we, our country, designated a terrorist organization, penetrated a sovereign Israeli border, killed two Israeli soldiers, kidnapped another. Hezbollah, another designated terrorist organization, crossed Israel's border with Lebanon, killed eight Israeli soldiers, and took two others hostage. Both of these actions are clear acts of war.

[ziggytrix]

Were you discouraged?

I never really saw a whole heck of a lot of people saying Israel did not have the right to retaliate against Hezbollah or Hamas.

The problem Israel has is that a lot of their actions were being percieved as going further than targettign Hezbollah.

And the you've got the complaints of nobodies like me who worry that when the dust settles, the attitudes of both sides won't have changed one bit, and really nothing will have been done to fix the problem, beyond a temporary fix to the symptoms, which if taken too far will just worsen the underlying problem. :(

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Were you discouraged?

I never really saw a whole heck of a lot of people saying Israel did not have the right to retaliate against Hezbollah or Hamas.

Right, people give the token gesture to Israel, but when Israel responds it's "disproportionate force."

If they use targeted bombings against hezbollah (with bombs bought from the U.$.), they're killing children. it doesn't matter that Israel has gone to great lengths to keep civilian casualties low. Israel drops leaflets, makes phone calls, and places warnings with local media. Hezbollah loads shrapnel and ball bearings into their rockets in order to maximize innocent casualties. Where do hezbollah rockets get fired? I wish the Left could try to be a little consistent here. These diatribes against Israel will often have the token sentence about Hezbollah, "oh yeah, they're really bad and need to stop." Israel on the other hand has commiteed massacres, and are "invading" Lebanon.

Go read http://www.commondreams.org/, check out some of the articles there:

"Silvia Tennenbaum:
Why Doesn't Israel Work For Peace?"

"Peter Bouckaert:
For Israel, Innocent Civilians Are Fair Game"

"Robert Scheer:
Israel’s Dependency on the Drug of Militarism"

Good reading, although I think you make a valid point. Lucklily, those who would sooner ask Israel to lay over and die, or deal with terrorists, happen to find themselves on the fringes of the Left Wing (and some on the fringee of the other end). Those who happen to see this is just a really, really, really confusing mess with no clear bad guys and good guys are surely on the fringes, right?


The problem Israel has is that a lot of their actions were being percieved as going further than targettign Hezbollah.

Yeah, I wonder where this perception comes from. Could it be that people on the far Left jump at the opportunity to call this an "invasion", even though it was Israel that was attacked? Maybe because "rescue workers" at Qana took the opportunity to parade the corpses of children around, cursing israel's name, without even asking themselves why Hezbollah guerillas may have been in the area to begin with? Maybe because Human Rights Watch decided to condemn Israel for human rights violations in Qana, long before any serious investigation could possibly be conducted? i mean, it's not like HRW is quick to always blame Israel, even though they've had to recant what they had initially said (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150355536302&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) regarding the Gaza beach bombings in early June.


And the you've got the complaints of nobodies like me who worry that when the dust settles, the attitudes of both sides won't have changed one bit, and really nothing will have been done to fix the problem, beyond a temporary fix to the symptoms, which if taken too far will just worsen the underlying problem. :(

The problem is that people like you take the attitude that there are two attitudes in need for adjustment. There aren't.

And I agree about not accepting temporary solutions. Israel accepted a temporary solution with Hezbollah before, and it has resulted in more attacks, more death, and more war.

A good solution would be the destruction of an armed hezbollah. When Lebanon can negotiate peace for their own country, rather than having an armed party that represents less than 20% of their population, then you'll see a change. Otherwise, Israel needs to clear out southern Lebanon for their own security. The UN won't do it, nor will the Lebanese government (needless to say Syria and Iran won't do it).

[kahljorn]

I just talked to a person from lebanon who has very negative feelings about what Israel is doing to lebanon ;O Not that it's a surprise or anything that there's more than one opinion.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Zombie Time has become my new favorite website....

All class.

The chant they had going on was cool, too:

(Man repeatedly giving Nazi salute.)
"We don't care what you say,
intifada all the way
We don't care what you say,
Hezbollah all the way
We don't care what you say,
Hezbollah all the way
Palestine will be free
Palestine will be free
From the river to the sea
From the river to the sea
Palestine will be free
Palestine will be free..."

are the reffering to the river Jordan? Someone has ambitions.

[ziggytrix]

Those who happen to see this is just a really, really, really confusing mess with no clear bad guys and good guys are surely on the fringes, right?

I'd say the people who see it as a simple situation with clear good guys and clear bad guys are the guys who are doing the fighting, or cheerleading one side or the other.

Personally, I see it as a mess with no clear good guys. There's a lot of blood on a lot of hands, and for now, I don't see a way out without even more bloodshed, and I really wish I did, and moreso I wish more people were wanted a way out without more bloodshed. It's great that Israel took so many measures to reduce innocent casualties, and I'm really glad they did that, because the saner refugees that come out of this will see that and understand that their enemy is not completely inhuman.


The problem is that people like you take the attitude that there are two attitudes in need for adjustment. There aren't.

The problem with people like you is that you think you know what everyone thinks. >:

Fuck this, I don't have the time to waste talking about this with people who already know everything about everything.

[Abcdxxxx]

I just talked to a person from lebanon who has very negative feelings about what Israel is doing to lebanon ;O Not that it's a surprise or anything that there's more than one opinion.

Well sure. Israel is bombing their country. On the other hand, what's his affiliation that he doesn't put the majority of the blame on Hezbollah? Are they happy that an Islamic fundamentalist group have armed themselves on their borders and tried to pick a Holy War with their neighbors? You could wipe out all of Israel tommorow, and Lebanon will still be on the brink of a civil war. What's going on that he doesn't blame his government for not just taking a passive stance, but alliging themselves with a genocidal army financed through the collusion of outside countries? Lebanon actualized 500,000 Palestinian and Syrian aliens in 1994, to manipulate the vote. 11 of Lebanons newspapers were shut down in 1977, and even when they had a free press, the word Jew and Israel were blacked out of articles. Sure they're angry at Israel. It's easier then confronting the real symptom of the problem.

[Abcdxxxx]

Are you in that much denial that you can't acknowledge that one side are blood thirsty genocidal maniacs with an fundamentalist religious doctrine to kill all Jews? Do explain why it's so hard to pick out the bad guy from that, please, and spare me the "even Hitler had a heart" diatribes.


Fuck this, I don't have the time to waste talking about this with people who already know everything about everything.

Yeah it must make you like, feel stupid or something. Better stick to talking about nothing with people who know nothing.

[kahljorn]

The only thing I can think of that they said that may apply to this is, "Who cares why don't they go after hezbollah then he has nothing to do with us why do they destroy our town and kill people who have nothing to do with it."

To answer your question her affiliation is nothing as far as I know, she's seems to be a very common person.

[Preechr]

Ziggy, I understand your frustration with having this discussion in this format. If you truly want to feel better about what's happening, since you are resigned to it being while hoping for the best, I can help you with that. Abcxxx and Kevin could probably help as well in that regard if they chose to.

I feel that sort of willingness to compromise on personal if not political lines is tragically missing in American discussion these days, at least or maybe especially on message boards. I'm not sure it ever existed on message boards, actually...

In our personal lives, we can peacefully co-exist among those we might entirely disagree with, never crossing polite borders. Maybe the basic nature of the internet, or at least our slow progress in instilling normal society's polite borders on it, precludes that civility among those that disagree which leads to peace.

I'd love to try to help you feel better about the war on all it's fronts. First, I'd like to establish where you are in that process already. You mentioned feeling that those that were in favor of the war were either fighting it personally or cheering for those that are. You also seem to believe the warrior spirit driving the soldiers of the more developed nations in the conflict roots from some sort of primitive bloodlust and unwillingness to seek means that don't involve carpet-bombing.

I'm a fan of the War on Terror itself. I am neither a soldier nor a military fanboy. I respect the military for it's proven integrity and I love our soldiers for the risks they take knowingly in honor of that integrity. I almost signed up twice, but I'm not a person that will kill someone, so I'm not good soldier material. The author of that book I suggested to Geggy and Courage believes our military force will soon split into two distinct forces with very different missions: one to kill things and break stuff and one to do what UN troops and NATO troops have so unfailingly always failed at: restore, build and keep peace.

I might be the type of guy to join up for that second force, but I'm a thirty-something now...

Either way, you want to feel better about the war? Start with trying to understand it on the largest level and abandon your studies of who the people are that are for it. Think of the war as a machine, with input and a product. Where do you hope this is going? To what end is all this mess? Try to imagine that you and everyone else in the modern world has desires for one of two possible products from this machine's work, yet among the individual's comprising either faction there is merely some disagreement on the layout of the various gears and levers and whatnot.

You exist among we of the modern world, and we all comprise about 2/3's of the population of the Earth. The other third of the population that is not counted among us in 2006 lives in a version of our 1806, or so. There are two similar factions among those people, just as in our group, that desire one or the other of the same two possible products of our machine for different reasons than our own, and the individuals comprising those factions also disagree among themselves on methodology and strategy.

One of the possible products of this war machine is a world united in the modern world's notion of freedom to live one's life however one chooses. In our modern world, we have established a society that universally condemns violence as a means to an end. Our common goal is to reach that golden plateau where peaceful means are all anyone ever uses to achieve her goals, whatever they may be. Right?

The only other possible product of this war machine is the world we have now or one where peaceful means are on the decline.

In both the modern world and the smaller, disconnected one there are those that want one or the other. "Terrorists" are included among the latter, where we all exist among the former. None of us here wish for a more violent world or a world where violent means are acceptable. All of us live in that violent world, however. Some of us are trying to change that. Some don't understand what's going on. Some are trying to do the right things for the wrong reasons. Some are actively resisting that change for whatever reason... some good and some bad.

Think of the War on Terror as a War on Violent Means. It is a "kinder, gentler war." I believe we stand a fantastic chance of winning it. Whose side do you believe the American government is on? How about the French? Tony Blair? Kevin? You? I know I am all for a war that promises an end to war, and I believe this is it.

I believe the enemy in this war is comprised of those that wish to keep one-third of our world's population in the dark for their own selfish benefit. These are the dictators. The Slave Lords. That they have co-opted Theocracy as their means to their end is just a tactic. That they have seated Muhammed at their throne just a matter of convenience, for their motivations are, by my moral standards, the furthest thing from holy.

I have no problem with Islam, nor any other religion. I personally do not subscribe to any faith, but I support the practice as a generally healthy excercise for people who wish to partake. I am spiritual myself, and I find it valuable. I think it's a good thing for me and anybody else to believe as they see fit, as long as it's a positive thing.

I just don't believe that violence is acceptable, even for religious reasons. As long as it is useful, however, it must always be met with at least the credible threat of a greater violence, if not it's force, as a deterrent or a means of punishment. As long as there are humans, I believe, sadly, there will be violent tendancies. If the threat of a greater violence can be made to overwhelm those tendancies, I suppose I would be happy to live under that threat as long as everyone else does and violence ceases to exist as a functional reality brought to bear intentionally by one human being upon another for whatever reason.

They say good fences make good neighbors, and the entire world is currently involved in a dispute over the global property line. This dispute will not be settled in a good way by pretending there is anything less at stake than World Peace and Global Freedom. We were born free, and we have always lived free. We have no idea of what it is like to live in any other state of being. To be un-free is to be subject to violence at the whim of another with no remedy.

No human being, in my mind, deserves to live like that unless as part of an appropriate punishment for violating the moral precepts that support our modern, free society. There are many that, whether they frame the war in this context or not, will agree with me on this. There are a number of people on this planet, at this time, that disagree with me in this regard. They are seeking to rope off the portion of the world not currently connected to our modern, free civilization, hoping to keep their third of the world enslaved by whatever means necessary. We call those people terrorists, dictators, despots and most commonly: enemies.

I'll ask you to consider again: Which side of this war is Israel on? How about America? Iran? Saddam Hussein? George Bush? Rummy? How about Michael Moore? Ben Afleck?

Ok... maybe that's taking this a bit too far for now...

Hope I've a helped at least a little...

[Abcdxxxx]

"Who cares why don't they go after hezbollah then he has nothing to do with us why do they destroy our town and kill people who have nothing to do with it."

As empathetic as I am for the good Lebanese caught in the middle, it's not Israel's responsibility to worry about their interpolitics. There was an attack coming from Lebanese territory, and rather then try and stop it, her government has aligned themselves with the culprits instead. Legally, I'm not sure Israel could hit Syria for an attack coming out of Lebanon. If she's angry that Lebanon is being held accountable, it's because her own country didn't take acountability in the first place. I guess apathy is a new one for the Lebanese though.

[kahljorn]

You say all that like a common person has any choice or influence in the matter. HER GOVERNMENT? She's not the president!

[El Blanco]

Lebanon is supposed to be a democracy. She is supposed to have a say in it. How many mass protests go on at any time over any topic in this country?

A terrorist group is attacking a neighboring nation and using her country as cover. Her democratically elected government is complicent at best and compliant at worst.

What exactly does she want Israel to do? And doesn't she feel a little responsibility to fixing the problem?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You're so feel good, Preechr. You're the I-Mockery version of a James Taylor song.

I mean, yeah man, it's so complicated and complex. The armed guerilla wing of a minority political party declared war on a sovereign nation, and shucks, that nation is responding!

I'm not sure where the confusion is. Sure, there's a lot of history, a lot of religion, and a lot of other sociological issues involved in the mess.

However, if you take just a cursory glance at history you'll learn a couple of things. 1. Israel makes peace, and conceds land, to those who truly want to make peace with her. 2. She will continue to fight those who wish her destruction.

I overheard one idiot in a coffee shop yesterday say "ya know, Hezbollah said that if Israel stopped attacking and 'left', they (Hezbollah) would stop firing rockets." Since Israel left Lebanon years ago, that made her point rather moot. Anyone who thinks this issue is about 1967 borders, or two-state solutions, or the right of return, is misguided and should brush up. I'm not going to sugarcoat it, and I'm not going to water down a discussion that I feel is too important and demanding of moral clarity. I say this not as a "cheerleader," but as someone who counted himself amongst the misguided.

Peace and a ceasefire are two different things. Just because bombs aren't dropping doesn't mean there is peace. Organizations like Hezbollah LOVE to stop fighting, b/c it allows them to recharge, re-stock, and regroup. A peace is a conscious activity, it takes work, and as you saw today in light of the announcement of some of the resolution conditions, it's something Hezbollah DOES NOT WANT.

[Preechr]

You're so feel good, Preechr. You're the I-Mockery version of a James Taylor song.

The only singer I hate more than James Taylor is Lee Greenwood.

You really know how to hurt a guy.

I understand the rest of your post, and I'm pretty sure that's not stuff you think I don't already know...

What, then, is your general objection to my post?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

The bulk of my post was directed at Ziggy, sorry.

I like James Taylor. :(

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Does anyone bitch about the US/Mexican wall and call it Aparthied that we check IDs and only allow legal workers, tourists, and students across?

Every country, no matte rhow poor it's neigbour, has the right to wall off it's border.

[kahljorn]

Democracies don't necessarily represent what every person in the nation want. Look how many people on this message board complain about President Bush. The only reason I added her opinion was because I thought it was relevant and was completely different than the "Supportive" views I've been hearing about that were represented as the "Real truth".

Next time I talk to her I'll ask her if she supports hezbollah or not, I thought it might've been a bit touchy of a subject.

[Abcdxxxx]

Oh that's right, you don't watch the news. The Lebanese love Hezbollah now. They even refer to those Hezbollah prisoners as "Lebanese prisoners". Don't blink though, because the tide is shifting. They'll be turning on Hezbollah next week.

The "real truth" refers to the onset of civil war which has nothing to do with Israel.

[kahljorn]

The news doesn't necessarily represent everybody's opinion simultaneously.

So what's the real truth?

[Abcdxxxx]

If only there was a way to offset the difference between varied opinions, and what really just amounts to promotion for Islamic-Fascism.

The real truth is this Nasrallah quote:
"If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)

Last weeks photo of a Christian mob in Lebanon smashing a car that had a Hezbollah sicker is the real truth:
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/images/Beirut%20Mob.jpg

Lebanon will be temporarily united under war but the tensions which pre-existed will only become just that much more relevant in the aftermath of Israel's defensive incursion. Maybe sooner.

[kahljorn]

Sounds like a regular everyday war to me, albeit with a little extra racism. Lebanon has always held a history of vastly different 'Opinions', I'm not really surprised that it's still the same today.

[Abcdxxxx]

If by everyday war you mean like the one around 1938, then sure.

About that racism you mentioned? Let's look at last weeks tally, minus a few incidents....

The Shooting in Seattle.
Jewish shops in Rome were desecrated with Swastikas.

An Israeli man was murdered from knife wounds bya carload of men.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20035903-2,00.html

A Synagogue in Brazil was damaged by molotov cocktails.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525812149&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Hizballah supporters in Montreal violently attacking pro-Israel demonstrators.
http://www.judeoscope.ca/article.php3?id_article=0434

Two South Florida synagogues and a kosher restaurant have cleaned up messages of hate left behind by vandals over the weekend.
The vandals struck the Young Israel of Greater Miami and Shaaray Tefilah synagogues in North Miami Beach.

They spray painted in red, swastikas, the letters “KKK”, for the hate group, The Ku Klux Klan, and the message “you are next” on both synagogues
http://cbs4.com/local/local_story_211232748.html

A Jewish community center was attacked in Australia.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3285504,00.html

The Holocaust memorial in Brussels was vandalized, and ashes from a concentration camp were stolen.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1672346/posts


New York Magazine describes Israel as a mistake, using the historical fallacy that it sits on "Arab land".
http://newyorkmetro.com/news/imperialcity/18467/index.html

Israel supporters were spit on at a "Support Lebanon" rally. An Israeli was physically attacked trying to video tape a "cease fire" rally turned Hizballah rally.
http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archives/008897.shtml
http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archives/008799.shtml

There was Mel Gibson's drunken anti-semitic rant followed by the publicity machine to clear his name.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060802/ts_nm/crime_gibson_dc_5

[kahljorn]

That's what I was talking about.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Syria buys Russian anti tank stuff to give to lebanon
The Hezbollah anti-tank teams use a new and particularly potent version of the Russian-made RPG, the RPG-29 that was sold by Moscow to the Syrians and then transferred to the Shi’ite organization.

In "it's about damn time" news
Lebanese Information Minister Ghazi Aridi told reporters after a Cabinet meeting that ''the government expresses its readiness to send a 15,000-member Lebanese army force after occupation forces withdraw.''

this is my fave, fresh from the lebanon media the article is called
"the cost of Lebanon's victory" It's just about war debt but the title was hilarious. Lebanon isn't even participating in the war they are sitting back and watching hezballah get raped by Israel. (God knows they don't wanna help the terrorist/opposing party group)

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=5&article_id=74560

Oh and while i'm here i wanna say "rofl" @ the pic, and i'd like to make an off color Mel Gibson Joke about the Nasrallah genocide quote.

Seriously I don't understand what outside of superstition is why People hate Jews?

On a slightly related note the Israeli military recieved intelligence saying a house was used to store weapons for terrorists in Gaza. They called the family TWICE on the phone to tell them to leave and that the house would be bombed.

This was bad military tactic since they got all the weapons out but they saved the lives of the family supporting the terrorists. What pic do they show after this selfless act?

http://www.informationliberation.com/files/2006_08_06t175305_450x275_us_mideast_palestinians. jpg
the kid walking in the remains of his old house/terrorist stronghold.

Candians believe Israel is using FRICKEN LASER BEAMS! The shark division was unavailable for comment at the time.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=MAN20060807&articleId=2918

[Abcdxxxx]

"Bodies with dead tissues and no apparent wounds; 'shrunken' corpses; civilians with heavy damage to lower limbs that require amputation, which is nevertheless followed by unstoppable necrosis and death; descriptions of extensive internal wounds with no trace of shrapnel, corpses blackened but not burnt, and others heavily wounded that did not bleed."

This is actually hilarious....could it be these casualties were maybe, oh i don't know....ALREADY DEAD!? The poor babies corpse being paraded around like a trophy at Qana sure sounds like it could fit the above description. Are they digging up gravesites, and raiding morgues, then rushing the corpses to an emergency room? It sounds like they're amputating innocent people for imaginary limb damage. War by proxy...Munchausen by proxy...same thing. Meanwhile, Hezbollah have threatened to use chemicals, which means they're probably mixing the stuff in daycares.

Seriously, I only wish Israel was half that ruthless with their high tech toys, being that is it a war...but instead we get the only military in existance that sings peace songs, and begs their targets to evacuate.... and they're still compared to the worst of the worst.

Here's more from last week I missed:

The Edinburgh Film Festival told an Israeli filmmaker "it might be in your best interest if you don't attend" the screening, and rejected sponsorship from Israel's film fund. The film is actually anti-Israel, made by a leftist.
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746155.html

Grafiti attack a NZ synagogue. "6 million Jews. 7 million Russians. 40 million people in total. What makes you so special," + swastikas.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=119114

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Suicide Bombers The other war.

The Israeli Air Force struck an Islamic Jihad arms depot in Beit Hanoun in northern Gaza.
Beit Hanoun residents reported that the structure attacked is a house and that the IDF has called the residents and asked them to evacuate prior to the strike. You'll remember Islamic Jihad has taken responsibility for a LOT of suicide bombings. One baby was injured in the attack but he's gonna be alright. (bring your cild to infitadah day?)

Crazy religous guy ways in on war, no wait this one is FOR Israel.

The Rev. Pat Robertson once suggested that Ariel Sharon's massive stroke was divine punishment for withdrawing from the Gaza Strip.
That led Israel to suspend contact with the televangelist. But he was back today -- praying with Sharon's successor.
Robertson said he and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert joined hands during a 15-minute meeting and prayed for victory in Lebanon.

Spielberg wants to Help Israel (No At-Ats in the background over haifa)

A foundation created by filmmaker Steven Spielberg will donate $1 million to relief efforts in Israel as it battles with Hezbollah.
The Righteous Persons Foundation will make an initial contribution of $250,000 to the Jewish Federation of Los Angeles Israel Crisis Fund. The foundation will then follow up with gifts to the New Israel Fund and other organizations that are providing relief to those evacuated from northern Israel, said Marvin Levy, foundation spokesman.
The Jewish Foundation will use its donation to support emergency efforts for evacuated children, install shatterproof glass in Haifa's three hospitals and provide emergency assistance at the Naharia hospital, he said.
The New Israel Fund will use its donation to set up crisis hot lines and provide food and other emergency supplies to families in northern Israel, Levy said.

Thousands of New Yorkers protest Israel and support Hamas and Hezballah

http://nyc.indymedia.org/or/2006/08/74334.html

Reutergate

Aside from the smoke pic, reuters is pulling several more pics. One is the same woman crying in front of several different houses of rubble implying she was different women at different houses.

Also the famous aid worker holding up the dead baby corpse while smiling like it's a trophy was removed cause the guy wearing the aid unifrom was NOT an aid worker but a local posing with the corpse.

Here's my fave note this plane firing missiles at civilians. Wait, it's not firing missiles, it's releasing flares, These are for screwing with heat seeking anti aircraft fire. They don't blow up.

http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/20122005/857867/1l_wa.jpg

[El Blanco]

Wouldn't be a proper "Peace in the Middle East" rally without a cop killer giving a speach and some anti-semetic ramblings, would it?

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

New black panther leader shouts racial slurs against Jews like Mel Gibson during happy hour.

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/08/cynthia-mckinney-goes-out-in-black.html

Iranian Revolutionary gaurd among the dead Hezballah combatents

http://reuters.myway.com/article/20060809/2006-08-09T214818Z_01_L09100220_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-MIDEAST-LEBANON-IRANIANS-DC.html

Ambulences are the new Hummers. Hezballah and palestineuses them for troop transport. (vids)
http://ussneverdock.blogspot.com/2006/08/israel-ambulance-caught-with-suicide.html

Photo Op - Medics take injured backa out and pause for good photos. What kind of doctor?
http://ussneverdock.blogspot.com/2006/08/lebanon-qana-hizbollah-video.html

BBC says Lebanese PM retracts his statement that 40 died saying that onlt one died.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5252842.stm
Rueters still wont change their old article
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-08-07T130719Z_01_L05688729_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST.xml&pageNumber=0&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage3

British muslims 25% say the 7/7 bombings were justified and 9/11 was a jewish conspiracey.
http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1145782006

A Saudi charity funded the Bali bombings that killed 92 aussies
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20054517-2702,00.html

Palestinians kill snitches
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3286331,00.html

[Abcdxxxx]

Olmert is a schizophrenic. That is all.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Olmert is a schizophrenic. That is all.
Is this about yhe ceasefire?

http://newsnow.co.uk/cgi/NGoto/155527408?-16529

[Abcdxxxx]

The ceasefire is just the most glaring example of his inability to make a decision. The guy is all talk no action, and even his own party, and leftist Haaretz crowd are even in agreement on that one. People are not happy about how this war is being faught.

Who switches generals and readies ground troops for a premature ceasefire? Who asks an army to fight their asses off with a huge push, then 2 and a half hours later agrees to sign a ceasefire? THEN he tells them to keep fighting anyway till he signs the thing with some dopey plan to get a buncha troops to the Litani Riverin time for Israel to claim some symbolic victory. Meanwhile nobody in their right mind thinks any of this will stick. We know there will be fighting Monday.

Who takes massive military retaliation because 1,000,000 people are under rocket attack, and then suspends military action while the rockets are still coming down? Who announces their strategy on an hourly basis, complete with cabinet votes, troop deployments, and hourly goals with the route they're taking? All the military analysis keep wondering what the fuck Israel is doing, thinking there's some clever manuvering here, but nope, just a schizo PM who can sound like a Hawk at breakfast, and turn into a whimpering leftist by dinnertime. Israel keeps taking responsibility for events like Qana they don't even believe they're responsible for - not to mention bending over backwards to world opinion which is largely shaped by propaganda, and the UN's obsession with Israel. But the WORST is he want's to start more WB evictions in the middle of this.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

good points. He is trying so hard to get international approval he is ignoring the main goals. But i do agree the "keep fighting till i sign it" thing. he needs to do all he can until he shoots himself in the leg.

But on the plus side if he changes his mind (lol, i said "if" as if it was in question), it's just the UN it's not like they have real power or authority.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

WHY, WHY, WHY!?

Why does every story I read on this UN resolution have a title like "Hezbollah chief backs U.N. peace deal, with conditions"!!?

Does Lebanon even have an elected government, or do radical thugs normally broker treaties and cease fires for them....? Why is ANYONE other than the Lebanese government even TALKING to Hezbollah!!? The only necessary communication should be "when are you disarming?"

More blue hats with no authority at all on the border. I'll give this cease fire maybe a year before Hezbollah can reload and route through the peace keepers. This will start all over again, and I'm guessing those abducted prisoners are as good as dead.

[Ant10708]

The whole anti-Israel bunch shut the fuck up it seems in this debate. ha

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Here's the full text of the resolution.....

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/11/un.draft/index.html

The draft resolution presented at the U.N.

The Security Council;

PP1. Recalling all its previous resolutions on Lebanon, in particular resolutions 425 (1978), 426 (1978), 520 (1982), 1559 (2004), 1655 (2006) 1680 (2006) and 1697 (2006), as well as the statements of its President on the situation in Lebanon, in particular the statements of 18 June 2000 (S/PRST/2000/21), of 19 October 2004 (S/PRST/2004/36), of 4 May 2005 (S/PRST/2005/17) of 23 January 2006 (S/PRST/2006/3) and of 30 July 2006 (S/PRST/2006/35),

PP2. Expressing its utmost concern at the continuing escalation of hostilities in Lebanon and in Israel since Hizbollah's attack on Israel on 12 July 2006, which has already caused hundreds of deaths and injuries on both sides, extensive damage to civilian infrastructure and hundreds of thousands of internally displaced persons,

PP3. Emphasizing the need for an end of violence, but at the same time emphasizing the need to address urgently the causes that have given rise to the current crisis, including by the unconditional release of the abducted Israeli soldiers,

PP4: Mindful of the sensitivity of the issue of prisoners and encouraging the efforts aimed at urgently settling the issue of the Lebanese prisoners detained in Israel,

PP5. Welcoming the efforts of the Lebanese Prime Minister and the commitment of the government of Lebanon, in its seven-point plan, to extend its authority over its territory, through its own legitimate armed forces, such that there will be no weapons without the consent of the government of Lebanon and no authority other than that of the government of Lebanon, welcoming also its commitment to a UN force that is supplemented and enhanced in numbers, equipment, mandate and scope of operation, and bearing in mind its request in this plan for an immediate withdrawal of the Israeli forces from Southern Lebanon,

PP6. Determined to act for this withdrawal to happen at the earliest,

PP7. Taking due note of the proposals made in the seven-point plan regarding the Shebaa farms area,

PP8. Welcoming the unanimous decision by the government of Lebanon on 7 August 2006 to deploy a Lebanese armed force of 15,000 troops in South Lebanon as the Israeli army withdraws behind the Blue Line and to request the assistance of additional forces from UNIFIL as needed, to facilitate the entry of the Lebanese armed forces into the region and to restate its intention to strengthen the Lebanese armed forces with material as needed to enable it to perform its duties,

PP9. Aware of its responsibilities to help secure a permanent ceasefire and a long-term solution to the conflict,

PP10. Determining that the situation in Lebanon constitutes a threat to international peace and security,

OP1. Calls for a full cessation of hostilities based upon, in particular, the immediate cessation by Hizbollah of all attacks and the immediate cessation by Israel of all offensive military operations;

OP2. Upon full cessation of hostilities, calls upon the government of Lebanon and UNIFIL as authorized by paragraph 11 to deploy their forces together throughout the South and calls upon the government of Israel, as that deployment begins, to withdraw all of its forces from Southern Lebanon in parallel;

OP3. Emphasizes the importance of the extension of the control of the government of Lebanon over all Lebanese territory in accordance with the provisions of resolution 1559 (2004) and resolution 1680 (2006), and of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, for it to exercise its full sovereignty, so that there will be no weapons without the consent of the government of Lebanon and no authority other than that of the government of Lebanon;

OP4. Reiterates its strong support for full respect for the Blue Line;

OP5. Also reiterates its strong support, as recalled in all its previous relevant resolutions, for the territorial integrity, sovereignty and political independence of Lebanon within its internationally recognized borders, as contemplated by the Israeli-Lebanese General Armistice Agreement of 23 March 1949;

OP6. Calls on the international community to take immediate steps to extend its financial and humanitarian assistance to the Lebanese people, including through facilitating the safe return of displaced persons and, under the authority of the Government of Lebanon, reopening airports and harbours, consistent with paragraphs 14 and 15, and calls on it also to consider further assistance in the future to contribute to the reconstruction and development of Lebanon;

OP7. Affirms that all parties are responsible for ensuring that no action is taken contrary to paragraph 1 that might adversely affect the search for a long-term solution, humanitarian access to civilian populations, including safe passage for humanitarian convoys, or the voluntary and safe return of displaced persons, and calls on all parties to comply with this responsibility and to cooperate with the Security Council;

OP8. Calls for Israel and Lebanon to support a permanent ceasefire and a long-term solution based on the following principles and elements:

- full respect for the Blue Line by both parties,

- security arrangements to prevent the resumption of hostilities, including the establishment between the Blue Line and the Litani river of an area free of any armed personnel, assets and weapons other than those of the government of Lebanon and of UNIFIL as authorized in paragraph 11, deployed in this area,

- full implementation of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, and of resolutions 1559 (2004) and 1680 (2006), that require the disarmament of all armed groups in Lebanon, so that, pursuant to the Lebanese cabinet decision of July 27, 2006, there will be no weapons or authority in Lebanon other than that of the Lebanese state,

- no foreign forces in Lebanon without the consent of its government,

- no sales or supply of arms and related materiel to Lebanon except as authorized by its government,

- provision to the United Nations of all remaining maps of land mines in Lebanon in Israel's possession;

OP9. Invites the Secretary-General to support efforts to secure as soon as possible agreements in principle from the Government of Lebanon and the Government of Israel to the principles and elements for a long-term solution as set forth in paragraph 8, and expresses its intention to be actively involved;

OP10. Requests the Secretary-General to develop, in liaison with relevant international actors and the concerned parties, proposals to implement the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, and resolutions 1559 (2004) and 1680 (2006), including disarmament, and for delineation of the international borders of Lebanon, especially in those areas where the border is disputed or uncertain, including by dealing with the Shebaa farms area, and to present to the Security Council those proposals within thirty days;

OP11. Decides, in order to supplement and enhance the force in numbers, equipment, mandate and scope of operations, to authorize an increase in the force strength of UNIFIL to a maximum of 15,000 troops, and that the force shall, in addition to carrying out its mandate under resolutions 425 and 426 (1978):

a. Monitor the cessation of hostilities;

b. Accompany and support the Lebanese armed forces as they deploy throughout the South, including along the Blue Line, as Israel withdraws its armed forces from Lebanon as provided in paragraph 2;

c. Coordinate its activities related to paragraph 11 (b) with the Government of Lebanon and the Government of Israel;

d. Extend its assistance to help ensure humanitarian access to civilian populations and the voluntary and safe return of displaced persons;

e. Assist the Lebanese armed forces in taking steps towards the establishment of the area as referred to in paragraph 8;

f. Assist the government of Lebanon, at its request, to implement paragraph 14;

OP12. Acting in support of a request from the government of Lebanon to deploy an international force to assist it to exercise its authority throughout the territory, authorizes UNIFIL to take all necessary action in areas of deployment of its forces and as it deems within its capabilities, to ensure that its area of operations is not utilized for hostile activities of any kind, to resist attempts by forceful means to prevent it from discharging its duties under the mandate of the Security Council, and to protect United Nations personnel, facilities, installations and equipment, ensure the security and freedom of movement of United Nations personnel, humanitarian workers, and, without prejudice to the responsibility of the government of Lebanon, to protect civilians under imminent threat of physical violence;

OP13. Requests the Secretary-General urgently to put in place measures to ensure UNIFIL is able to carry out the functions envisaged in this resolution, urges Member States to consider making appropriate contributions to UNIFIL and to respond positively to requests for assistance from the Force, and expresses its strong appreciation to those who have contributed to UNIFIL in the past;

OP14. Calls upon the Government of Lebanon to secure its borders and other entry points to prevent the entry in Lebanon without its consent of arms or related materiel and requests UNIFIL as authorized in paragraph 11 to assist the Government of Lebanon at its request;

OP15. Decides further that all states shall take the necessary measures to prevent, by their nationals or from their territories or using their flag vessels or aircraft,

(a) the sale or supply to any entity or individual in Lebanon of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare parts for the aforementioned, whether or not originating in their territories, and

(b) the provision to any entity or individual in Lebanon of any technical training or assistance related to the provision, manufacture, maintenance or use of the items listed in subparagraph (a) above, except that these prohibitions shall not apply to arms, related material, training or assistance authorized by the Government of Lebanon or by UNIFIL as authorized in paragraph 11;

OP16. Decides to extend the mandate of UNIFIL until 31 August 2007, and expresses its intention to consider in a later resolution further enhancements to the mandate and other steps to contribute to the implementation of a permanent ceasefire and a long-term solution;

OP17. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Council within one week on the implementation of this resolution and subsequently on a regular basis;

OP18. Stresses the importance of, and the need to achieve, a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East, based on all its relevant resolutions including its resolutions 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 and 338 (1973) of 22 October 1973;

OP19. Decides to remain actively seized of the matter.

[ziggytrix]

The whole anti-Israel bunch shut the fuck up it seems in this debate. ha

who's that?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You and Geggy?

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

not bad, free the kidnapped soldiers unconditionally, hezballah must immediatly and permanently stop attacks, lebanon must put 15,000 troops in the south to keep hezballah down. I'm not sure where the blue line is as borders go is it the curent border or a new one?

Now if only Hezballah ever kept their word or the UN ever had any real power at all this could work.

they're screwed.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

http://ussneverdock.blogspot.com/2006/08/lebanon-hezbollah-fabricating-civilian.html

CNN has proof of hezballah faking photos, BBC however seems content to air video that has already been debunked as staged on their evening news.

I'm seriously considering boycotting BBC on news in the muslim world. They are even wrose about tell half truths in pakistan. If you ask me a half truth is worse then a whole lie.

[Abcdxxxx]

So um yeah, um...

http://www.zombietime.com/stop_the_us_israeli_war_8_12_2006/

kevin, does freedom of speech extend to groups on our terror list, we're at war with? you're a by the books kind of guy. i mean - seeing a hamas flag hanging across from city hall , with those security guys in bullet proof vests seems like it's got to be a breach of something. what's your take?

there's nothing gratifying to see the crazy shit i always warned could happen, actually happening.

coward - i'm guessing you've seen there's video of the qana incident as well?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

That's a tough call for me. I feel like if people wish to be ignorant and hateful in a free society, well than good for them. It just places the onus on folks like the woman who runs zombie time to expose these clowns, make them look like the asses they are, and hope you can winth public debate. It's what separates us from them, imo.

Edit:

"Gandhi and Nasrallah, together at last."

dude, San Fran is messed up.

[Abcdxxxx]

I think my discomfort from this is the feeling that it's not an isolated example of nutty protest. I'm great at making crazed predictions, but it's not gratifying to see them come true. Where three years ago, If I said I had a fear of a USA Intifada, I would know how batshit crazy it sounded, now we see the imagery evoked symbolically. There's a scary climate developing, and it appears our country has lost the power to fight subversion. If we look at the situation in Israel, and the whole sham of a peace process, there have been no surprises. Yet Israel plays along despite knowing how things will end up, poorly. These acts of faith are supposed to prove a point, but the end means never outweight the consequences. If there's no fear of the long arm of Israel - then what?

The ISM and PLO have already joined forces in Gaza twisting the concept of fighting for peace, and here in the US we now see mainstream "peace organizations" alligned with hate speech, turning a blind eye to it. Someone I wish I could write off, like Debbie Schlussel with her conspiracy theories starts to sound like they might be right. http://www.debbieschlussel.com/ We know Bin Laden is very open with his intentions on what he plans to do - and he made it clear that he would set off a civil war in the USA. Dearborn, Michigan isn't a random spot on the map in that case. Does this mean Jews will need to radicalize too? Rabbi Meyer Kahane's seperatist and extremist views never took off with the JDL, aside from the clever "every Jew a .22" tshirts.... but it's getting harder to write him off now. Al Qaeda's first attack in the US is said to have been his assassination.

Now we go back to an act of civil disobediance, in loony SanFrancisco, hanging the flag of a terrorist group across from a City Hall. Arab supremacists doing Arab pride chants covering their faces makes me very uncomfortable, but factor in the amount of Holocaust turnspeak, conspiracies, replacement history, and now media manipulation and it's seriously concerning. Much of it seems coordinated. The dates of events are not random - the Israeli soldiers were kidnapped on the anniversary of Entebbe, just before the Jewish period of Tish B'av which also marks a year after the Gaza pullout - the UN deadline for Iran is the day Muslims mark Muhammeds flight to the cosmos from the Al-Aqsa Mosque.

So I have to wonder, at what point does hanging the flag of an illegal terror organization that bombed our Embassy and targeted our citizens cross the line?

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Iran says disarming the genocidal, war inciting, iranian backed Hezballah organization is illogical and the UN should punish Israel.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3290540,00.html

there's a big surprise, next thing you'll see is a "boris yeltsin likeed booze" article

[ziggytrix]

You and Geggy?

you seriously think i'm anti-Isreal just cuz I balk at the thought of giving them carte blanche in the name of defense?

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

well not nessacarily carte blanche but considering hezballah is an iranian founded political organization that is banned in sexeral countries due to it's terrorist acts and that they attack EXCLUSIVELY civilian targets it's almost like the the US vs. aliban war in afgahnistan. It's hard to think of any measure to strong to take them out.

We are worried for true civilian casualties but this is overshadowed by the faked ones and the awful reprecussions for people of all countires if hezballah is allowed to continue to exist.

If this truce holds up, considering all the interesting conversation this is bringing up would anyone else be interested in a palestine/israel thread?

[Abcdxxxx]

I believe it's all the same conflict, there's no real reason to seperate them.

[ziggytrix]

It's hard to think of any measure to strong to take them out.

I can think of several. Pretty much any action that fits the bill of "cures the disease and kills the patient".

Please note that I have not stated any belief that I've seen evidence of any of our guys taking this route, though I think we are (perhaps quite necessarily) very close to that line in this conflict.

Any action that results in a net increase in the number of people who believe "asymmetric warfare" is a viable or necessary course of action is, quite simply, a failure.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

It's funny how people being used as human shields seem to blame the people shooting their attackers. Asymetric warfare is, like it or not, very effective. It's kept the Sri Lankan rebels at it for 20 years. Sadly this method is almost certainly worse then the disease itself.

If they don't fight terrorists, even with their human shields, they will continue to kill civilians. Besides I'd like to see a real number put on the civilian casualties in lebanon, cause seriously most of these people are supporting, harboring, and helping the terrorists. Most of these terrorists operate out of their homes with their wives and kids lending a hand.

[Preechr]

http://www.aish.com/movies/PhotoFraud.asp

[ziggytrix]

I bet you won't read this.

August 15, 2006
Digitally Erasing a Massacre
Why Hezbollywood Was Born

By ANDREW FORD LYONS

If a regular old picture is worth a thousand words, how much does a digitally altered image fetch on the international market today? I ask because a lot of words have been spilled over one digitally altered photograph in particular.

I've spent a great deal of time as of late poring over a pair of images, both allegedly derived from a single click of the shutter by Reuters photographer Adnan Hajj on August 5. Both depict a Beirut skyline filled with black smoke after an Israeli bombardment. The one cited as the original unedited version shows a jet blue sky over white, sun-soaked buildings from which inky smoke plumes rise. In the obviously altered second photo, the sky is washed out and pale, the skyline is noticeable higher in the frame, the buildings are darker and have strangely sharpened edges, and the cloud plumes have been digitally cloned with no dramatic or even realistic effect. Smoke just doesn't look like that.

Because of this and one other photo attributed to Hajj - one containing a suspected alteration to the weapons being fired by an Israeli jet - he no longer works for Reuters, and the news agency has pulled from circulation 920 other photos he has taken for for the agency, though it said there is no indication those were tampered with.

Of course, altering the content of an image meant to depict actual events is unethical. And until people hear from this particular photographer himself, we won't know the full story. My own attempts to gain further information for the Reuters news agency were met without response. In the meantime, the rampant speculation about staged and altered photographs in Lebanon has its poster child. Bloggers on conservative, pro-war websites like Little Green Footballs, IsraPundit, The Jawa Report and others had already been floating test conspiracies about the aftermath of a July 30 Israeli air raid on a Qana apartment building being staged. Hajj had taken photos there as well. When Reuters issued a "Photo Kill" announcement for that one Beirut skyline shot, these and other pajama pundits seized on it. Not only did they suggest that Hajj's Qana photos might also be false, but that other photographers' work also was suspect, and well, maybe there was no massacre of civilians at all.


PIXEL BY PIXEL

As someone who has worked as a photojournalist and editor, and who once outed another photographer for altering a photo (though not one of nearly such a dramatic subject as a Beirut missile attack), I wondered why Hajj would ruin an entirely useable, clean image in such a crude and obvious fashion. This faked image just didn't jive with those of his earlier work, which is replete with crisp, clean photos, their details sharp, darks and lights in high contrast and colors brilliant. Of the two Beirut photos in question, the first more closely matches his resumé. The edited one is muddy in places and washed out as well as blatantly faked. Some speculate that the extra smoke was added for dramatic effect. It didn't add any. Aside from the artificiality, it also lacked the more marketable composition of the so-called original. Not only was it a forgery, it was just a bad photo.

According to a published statement by Reuters public relations person Moira Whittle, Hajj denied he attempted to manipulate his images. He did say he had used software to remove dust marks from the lens, a standard practice among photographers that still would not produce the image Reuters had initially released, then retracted. Interestingly, according to the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, photographers for Reuters are seldom the last to have control over their images. The article says "all photographs taken for Reuters around the world are sent to Singapore, where they undergo certain editorial processes before being distributed to the agency's many clients."

If true, one wonders if the "dust marks" comment had been made by a photographer who had even seen the heavily altered image in question.

The Beirut photo fiasco opened the floodgates for all coverage to be lambasted by those who believe one side, the Israeli one in this instance, is more justified in it's bloodletting than the other. But if it's unethical to add puffs of black smoke to a Beirut scene, for whatever reason, what are the ethics of using said puffs as an equally artificial smokescreen to justify the attempted whitewashing of an entire war zone, denying that innocent civilians are suffering, and holding up their killers as blameless victims?

There are things we don't know and things we do. What is not known is how the digitally falsified image of Beirut came about. We do know that on June 30, 2006, an Israeli airstrike on the nearby southern Lebanese town of Qana destroyed an apartment building and killed many of those inside. The photos from that single attack gushed like blood from a shrapnel wound, and that seems to be what's really bothering the folks who spend their hours studying every photo out of Lebanon pixel by pixel.

Qana was too real, too immediate. It's difficult to position an argument on the need for wholesale carnage when it could be printed in text wrapped around images of young corpses in the next day's morning edition. Much better to simply attack the images themselves. Out of the thousands of pictures that have come out of Lebanon, these people found one to hang their helmets on. Conservative bloggers began to analyze photo time stamps from the Qana coverage, suggesting without proof or merit that they indicated a lapse between the incident and the coverage for a set to be designed and used for a fake news story. They suggested it proved that missile attack hadn't destroyed the building, that it somehow proved that aid workers brought in already dead bodies to parade in front of cameras. Everything was game.

The Lebanese Red Cross uncovered 27 bodies amid the rubble of the Qana building. About 17 of them were children. Area residents and some local officials initially said that about 60 people were unaccounted for. Some days later, the organization Human Rights Watch was able to estimate the civilian deaths from the missile attack on that particular building to be what the Red Cross had reported.

But as the New York Times article that appeared later that day said, "Whatever the actual toll, the deaths in Qana set off a chain reaction." The story goes on to cite protests in Beirut against the U.S., Israel and the United Nations, as well as the litany of predictable statements to from Hamas and Hezbollah, which was still allegedly holding two Israeli soldiers hostage.

Those reactions weren't particularly interesting or unpredictable. I was far more intrigued by the response here in the United States, especially among the media, pundits, lobbyists and various wonks employed by some Christian, conservative and pro-Israeli special interest groups. Ostensibly, Israeli forces were blowing the hell out of southern Lebanon in order to free those two Israeli soldiers who were seized by Hezbollah fighters on July 12. Israel was also pounding the Gaza Strip, supposedly over the abduction of a soldier there as well. On June 25, the day after the army entered Gaza in an operation that included the seizing of a pair of alleged Palestinian fighters, a group of actual confirmed fighters used a secret tunnel to take an Israeli soldier to barter for the release of those two and other political prisoners held in Israel.

As the civilian death toll in Gaza topped 100, the relentless pounding in Lebanon had killed between 600 and 900 people. Either end of that estimation should provide for more than enough outrage, but Qana got the attention, perhaps because Qana is special: On April 18, 1996, Israeli howitzers fired on the United Nation's Fijian battalion headquarters where nearly 800 Lebanese civilians had taken refuge from "Operation Grapes of Wrath." More than 100 of civilians in that compound were killed. Outcry was international, and suddenly there were witnesses, mediators and media involved. It changed the course of the rest of the operation there.

But while that decade-old massacre remains an open, raw wound for the people of Lebanon, here in what Noam Chomsky refers to as "The United States of Amnesia," there is no recollection of it having taken place. No one recalls what happened in Qana in 1996. Most people in the U.S. likely didn't know what was going on in Qana in 1996 while it was going on. Most people in this country don't know Qana exists. A lot of them might know the story about Jesus turning water into wine, but they don't know he supposedly pulled off that stunt in Qana. It's just another khaki place on the TV screen that bombs run into.

This time around, with the downpour of news detailing the carnage in Lebanon, I wondered why so many talking heads and bloggers were taking so much time to argue the Israeli case for blowing up this one apartment building and challenging the death toll of doing so. As horrible as the killing of those 27 civilians was, why did that need so much more slick PR than the rest of the bloodshed?

Why, for example, was Paula Zahn using unsubstantiated, grainy black-and-white arial photos on CNN that were provided by the Israeli military itself as proof positive that the building had to be attacked? From the looks of them, those could have been just as fake as the Beirut skyline photo. On the July 31 performance of the show Paula Zahn Now, she used the photos to castigate Mohammed El-Harake, the consul general of Lebanon. Here's a snippet:

EL-HARAKE: I have witnessed 600 civilians killed, my city completely destroyed, wounded by thousands. And now you're asking me if these people who killed all these people are capable of killing civilians? Yes, they are capable of killing civilians.

ZAHN: Are you defending Hezbollah and their tactics, their tactics of moving freely among the civilian population your people? Do you defend what they're doing?


HEZBOLLYWOOD

Much of the spin was hitting the internet, radio and TV on August 4. While perusing the various articles and back-and-forth reader commentary on websites and blogs, I came across something new: "Hezbollywood." The mutt offspring of Hezbollah and Bollywood threw me a bit. Who came up with it? A Google search produced more than 120,000 hits. That's a lot, most of them in near-identical posts in comment areas on various websites. None of them seemed much older than late July.

To the best of my searching, it appears as though the right-wing website Israel Insider coined the word. It's snappy, though, and essentially punctuates any argument that claims the Israel military is not killing civilians in Lebanon, at least to the extent being reported. Rather, the Hezbollywood thesis rests on the notion that Hezbollah itself is employing tactics reminiscent from the 1997 Dustin Hoffman film Wag the Dog, in which Hollywood types team up with shady U.S. government officials to manufacture a fake TV war to distract the voting public from a White House scandal with pedophiliac overtones. The movie's premise was fairly ridiculous. As anyone who lived through the Clinton administration knows, people are far more willing to follow the delicious details of of an Oval Office sex scandal than spend time thinking about how many bombs the U.S. is dropping on foreigners or selling to foreigners to drop on other foreigners.

But Hezbollywood was something new. The war was real enough. The attempt now was to come up with a fake story about the real story - the massacre at Qana- being faked. While someone at Israel Insider may be clamoring for a bonus for thinking up "Hezbollywood," the idea that all these civilian casualties were somehow forged was making the rounds elsewhere as well. It seemed as though neo-con bloggers and right-wing pundits had all received their talking points and were on message.

Conservative British blogger Richard North, who runs a blogspot site called "EU Referendum" - popular amongst the armchair general set - spared no bandwidth to critique nearly every photo resulting from the Qana bombing. In one of his longer posts, North concludes all the photos taken in Qana were "staged for effect, exploiting the victims in an unwholesome manner. In so doing, they are no longer news photographs - they are propaganda."

It was an interesting screed, especially the part about "exploiting the victims." In other posts, North denies the existence of civilian victims, claiming that the events were staged. Not long after North's posting, and similar ones aping it elsewhere on the internet, disgraced right-wing pundit Rush Limbaugh became one more talking head in a growing cacophony: "These photographers are obviously willing to participate in propaganda. They know exactly what's being done, all these photos, bringing the bodies out of the rubble, posing them for the cameras, it's all staged. Every bit of it is staged and the still photographers know it."

Other conspiracy theorists took things further, doubting that the apartment building in Qana was targeted by Israeli air raids (in spite of Israeli statements saying it had been and providing their own photos as proof), and alleging that the bodies were brought in from nearby morgues, or were the remains of people forced to stay in the building by Hezbollah.

All of a sudden, every right-wing blogger and broadcaster was a character in the television show CSI. They all analyzed photos and footage, offering commentary on structural integrity, wounds on bodies, the amount of time it reportedly took for emergency workers and the press to arrive and so forth.

My favorite theories incorporated elements, sometimes contradictory, from other theories. The website PipeLineNews.org, for example, says that the "The Israeli Air Force was not responsible for the collapse of the building in question" and that Hezbollah was using it to fire rockets from "at the time of the IDF air strike." The same article alleges that those civilians in the building "were not permitted to leave" by Hezbollah, and thus were killed as "human shields" in the attack, but that the corpses brought out of the wreckage looked as though "they died much earlier and under different circumstances."

No one who actually witnessed the attack was saying these things. The accusations come from those pecking at computer keyboards or speaking from radio studios far from the scene. So it was weird that the conspiracy theorists gained enough traction to spur the Associated Press, Reuters and Agence France-Presse to make public statements on August 1 in defense of their work.

"Do you really think these people would risk their lives under Israeli shelling to set up a digging ceremony for dead Lebanese kids?" Patrick Baz, Mideast photo director for AFP, was quoted as saying in a story about the controversy. "I'm totally stunned by first the question, and I can't imagine that somebody would think something like that would have happened."

Immediately after the news agencies' statements, North and others declared their victory in spite of the fact that the photojournalists stood by their work. By making the actual news folks pay attention to them, North and company decided they had won. "The news agencies that stitched up the photos at the Qana site have all huddled together" gushed North in one particularly self-congratulatory posting, "and got AP staff writer David Bauder to issue a story rebutting lil ol' EU Referendum. And the imaginative title? 'News agencies stand by Lebanon photos'." Elsewhere on his site, North enthuses: "We have helped to plant seeds of doubt in some and strengthened doubts in others about the MSM (mainstream media) reporting of the Middle Eastern conflict, in particular of the war in the Lebanon."

Maybe they did win. While the bombardment of Lebanon has claimed hundreds of lives, the controversy over a single demolished apartment building kept the media spotlight on Qana. The argument here in the United States shifted away from the brutality of Israel's actions and U.S. culpability for it, and became entrenched in whether casualties on the ground took place at all. Debate about the morality or reasons behind the death, destruction went up in a cloud of digitally manufactured smoke.

There's a fair chance it won't return. Like the Qana attack in 1996, like the rape and murders carried out by U.S. soldiers in Haditha, the Qana attack of July '06 will vanish from American memory before long. The game plan is simple: Question it for a week or two and people will get bored and want to talk about Mel Gibson. While Hezbollywood may be interesting for a week, Hollywood will always come up with something better.

Andrew Ford Lyons is an English teacher,writer and activist with the International Solidarity Movement from Olympia, WA. He can be reached at drew@riseup.net

skip this too:

Reuters' Altered Photos: Overhyped? Dangerous? Both
Every time a straight-news journalist alters a fact — even something as picayune as the color of a bomb blast — it convinces people that the media must lie about big things as well
By JAMES PONIEWOZIK
TIME

Posted Wednesday, Aug. 09, 2006
When I saw the doctored Reuters photograph of smoke rising over Beirut, side by side with the unaltered version of the same scene, the first thing I thought was: which is supposed to be the scary one? If I saw either cloud of smoke rising from a bomb blast in my own city, I wouldn't be worried much about where it fell on the Pantone color wheel. (More-elaborate comparisons of the two altered photos, which led Reuters to pull over 900 pictures by photographer Adnan Hajj, have been springing up on YouTube; best to search on "Reuters," perhaps because the video makers have had a hard time spelling "Adnan Hajj.")

The story of the photos was first broken on the blog Little Green Footballs and has become a cause celebre, especially among conservative and pro-Israel bloggers, who see evidence of anti-Israel bias in the media. They have a point — well, half a point, anyway. The principle of not faking anything in the news is absolute. But the effects of particular fakeries are relative. It was much more pernicious — if we're to be totally honest here — when a TIME cover of O.J. Simpson after his arrest was doctored to make his skin look darker. The manipulation made an accused man seem more sinister before he had gone to trial, and it did so by playing off the language of racial stereotype. Hajj's manipulations are gratuitous and almost pointless: whichever side you take in the war, the devastation in Lebanon and Israel is real and well-documented, faked photos or not. A bomb leaves you just as dead, however dark a cloud it kicks up over your remains.

That said, the gratuitousness of the altered Reuters photos just makes them that much worse. Mainstream media will do itself no favors by downplaying this as a controversy hyped up by opinionated bloggers. It is a controversy hyped up by opinionated bloggers, of course, but so what? That's the world we live in, and in many ways it's a good thing: whatever their motives, partisan bloggers have kept the media honest, even if after the fact.

And every time a straight-news journalist alters a fact — even something as picayune as the color of a bomb blast or the number of flares fired from a plane — it convinces people that the media must lie about big things as well. All facts become suspect, all information becomes relative, and you might as well believe whatever your gut tells you, because the news is invariably driven by its own bias, which is, invariably, against you. We become a nation of Stephen Colberts, believing that facts are sketchy and overrated and should never be allowed to get in the way of what we want to believe.

We can argue till we pass out over Adnan Hajj's motives — politics? drama? careerism? — and those of the bloggers who pounced on the photos. In the end, they don't matter. What does matter is that every time something like this happens, the winners are the people of every political stripe who believe it's their calling to, to paraphrase another war, destroy the truth in order to save it.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

First of all, it isn't just two pics in question. The website that first caught the Reuters scam (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/) Has exposed a few, and not just from Reuters but the AP as well.

Zombie Time (http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/) put together a good little piece on it. For example, you have frantic and distraught Lebanese woman here, after having her house destroyed on 7/22:

http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/beirutwoman1.jpg

But odly enough, in a sick tiwist of fate, her house was destroyed again TWO WEEKS LATER!:

http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/beirutwoman2.jpg

Omg! Those fucking Zionists are after her!

Also, at one point in the article, the guy asks why we should believe Israeli pics over those presented from Hezbollah, or Lebanese sources. Good question. Maybe th answer has something to do with one side's tendency to avoid civilian loss of life through precision bombs, phone calls prior to bombing (!), as well as leaflet drops and news reports...?

How does the other side perceive life, Ziggy? Why don't we ask green helmet guy, who admitted to parading a child's corpse around (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060815/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_green_helmet) in order to make a point. And hey, who would assume that Hezbollah and radical muslims would hold such a low regard for life in the first place? Check out what happened to a villager who supposedly snitched info to the Zionists. My favorite part is the cell phones:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060814GazaCollaborator03.jpg

Those are an awful lot of *muslims, Ziggy! After they shot him, they decided to kick his dead body around for fun. Even mom got in on the action! (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060814GazaCollaborator04.jpg)

Is it sooo unthinkable that the same type of people who could do the above might also falsify a bombed location, or doctor a photo...?

[ziggytrix]

Also, at one point in the article, the guy asks why we should believe Israeli pics over those presented from Hezbollah, or Lebanese sources. Good question.

It's a rhetorical question. Why should we believe any picture provided by any side in a conflict has any purpose other than as propaganda for their side? Manipulated, staged, or just pointing the camera a few degrees to the right, and you can present the situation with your own bias.


Is it sooo unthinkable that the same type of people who could do the above might also falsify a bombed location, or doctor a photo...?

I can't help but get the feeling you are just repeating some argument you had with someone else, because I never implied anything of the sort.

The things that are too hard to believe are that this particular photographer doctored the photo so poorly, that whoever did it thought it wouldn't be noticed, or that everyone with internet access and their fucking dog thinks they know EXACTLY what happened 6000 miles across the surface of the planet, when they don't know shit beyond the spin of their favorite news PRODUCT.

[Preechr]

What we DO know, and this is what you seem to want to avoid addressing, is that Hezbollah fighters are using civilian casualties to their advantage. Is it that great of a logical leap to wonder if they might also be actively causing civilian casualties? You seem to want to wrap this all up in "It's all just propaganda," yet your objection to the war stems from the fact that innocent people are dying.

If the only reason that innocent people are dying is that Israel is dropping bombs and shooting their guns, then of course Israel should stop doing that! Is that the only reason, though? I seem to remember that the root cause of the entire conflict is the very existence of Israel, itself... and I'm pretty sure that Israel isn't the one against that.

The other, more important, reason that people are dying is that certain non-Israeli people with crappier military means are willing to do whatever it takes to KILL Israel. Push them and their country into the sea. Wipe it off the map. Exterminate them. Rid us of them. These words sound familiar to you?

I don't particularly like Alabama. I don't have a problem with Alabama having a state of it's own, but I'm kinda tired of it being located right next door to my state. I'm pretty sure Florida, Tennesse and Mississippi feel the same way, too. If we took a vote here in the South, I believe the majority of people would agree that Alabama, the Trailer Park State, should probably be moved somewhere else in hopes that Yankees will have about 18 million less reasons to think everyone south of the Mason-Dixon is basically just another Alabaman.

Do my feelings on that issue give me the right to join a militia founded upon the express goal of blowing shit up until that happens? I understand that this is a poor analogy in that Alabama is the crappiest state in the South, where Israel is the opposite in it's region, but the question is whether or not people have the right to exterminate one another for ANY reason.

Israel agreed to the cease-fire because Israel has a problem with the loss of innocent life for any reason, even it's fight for it's own existence... even when that loss of innocent life could very well be engineered by it's enemies. Don't forget that Hezbollah kills those Lebanese that oppose it's imposition upon Lebanon. Please keep in mind that there is UNDOUBTEDLY score settling involved when some of these intentional collateral casualties are selected for martyrdom for propaganda's sake.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Ziggy, you continue to be a puzzlement.

I was responding directly to the two articles that you quoted! You say you never implied anything, yet you post two articles that make that point, and essentially challenge everyone to read it. But you're not claiming anything?


It's a rhetorical question. Why should we believe any picture provided by any side in a conflict has any purpose other than as propaganda for their side? Manipulated, staged, or just pointing the camera a few degrees to the right, and you can present the situation with your own bias.

Think about that one, Ziggy. I'll address how ironic this reutergate thing is in a sec, but think about Israel's position. They have air drones that monitor all of their bombings, the take numerous precautions prior to bombings, and even ask people to pretty please leave the place they intend to bomb. Israel exists under a microscope, so how much propaganda do you think they could really get away with?



everyone with internet access and their fucking dog thinks they know EXACTLY what happened 6000 miles across the surface of the planet, when they don't know shit beyond the spin of their favorite news PRODUCT.

Do I need to be in Qana to detect a photoshopped picture? Should average citizens sit back and just digest everything the mainstream media feeds them? I mean it's "sensational, not liberal, media" right?

Isn't it "about getting viewers, period. viewers = advertizing dollars. sensation sells"?

I mean it's like you "don't understand the most basic concepts of capitalism."

[Abcdxxxx]

It's a rhetorical question. Why should we believe any picture provided by any side in a conflict has any purpose other than as propaganda for their side? Manipulated, staged, or just pointing the camera a few degrees to the right, and you can present the situation with your own bias.

Was that a slip?

They're not supposed to represent any sides of a conflict.
These photos were issued by a worldwide news agency. Reuters is supposed to be impartial, not a counter response to show a varied viewpoint. It's not excusable as counter propaganda.

You found two editorials that told you what you wanted to hear - but the photographer, and the faux rescue worker have both admitted to purposely exploiting the corpses. There is video which proves it conclusively. There is also video of the rescue worker interviewed at his own home promtly after the Qana incident, and there are Nasrallah photos on his shelves. Finally, the photographer in question admits to using photoshop to edit the image. How can you even defend that? Why aren't you angry that you're being manipulated by poor ethics? If you're saying Israel does this too, then get a fucking blog, do your own investigation, and prove it - because that's just what people had to do to prove that Reuters, and the AP are carelessly releasing propaganda to libel Israel with. Yet Ziggy's not impressed. He thinks your typical Israeli and your typical Hezbollah supporter are on an equal level. Facism and ethics mean nothing in his world. I'll tell you one thing - you will NEVER see the body of a young Jewish girl paraded by Magen David or Zakka rescue workers - EVER.

What may be lost on you is if they're manipulating photos, think what they might be doing to the news reports themselves? So yes, there is a huge amount of scrutiny being paid towards various "expert sources" and the body of work by certain photographers - and what people are finding is pretty damning.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/car_w_out_verses.jpg

Oh look, the holy Koran just appeared dangling from the wreckage...damn Zionists! ULULULULULULUH!!!

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/car_w_verses_1.jpg

Credit these photos to one of the Qana stylists working right alongside Hajj. I've said it again and again - when you're really oppressed, and really suffering you don't have to make shit up. You don't have to play it up. When reporters talk about entire cities reduced to rubble, they're not standing in front of a vibrant bustling magic kingdom.

When are you going to run out of rationalizations?

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Hey here's a slightly on yopic story

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4795709.stm

Iran is having a special museum dedicated to cartoons making fun of Jews and the Holocaust.

Jews ought send armed gunmen to kidnap people and riot and rise for terror against the west, oh wait that's palestinians and mohammed. Double standards are fun.

This goes on my list of reason's the Iranian president is an A-hole. it's a long list.

[ziggytrix]

You seem to want to wrap this all up in "It's all just propaganda," yet your objection to the war stems from the fact that innocent people are dying.

Incorrect. Innocent people die every day. They die when terrorist organizations are allowed to fester and grow in their ideal environments.

My objection stems not from this temporary acceleration of innocent casualties, but rather from a strong concern that this death and destruction alone will not solve the problem. There are underlying problems here that if ignored will simply result in reentrenchment of Hezbollah or a similar organization when southern Lebanon is rebuilt.


You say you never implied anything, yet you post two articles that make that point

the point being:


Also, at one point in the article, the guy asks why we should believe Israeli pics over those presented from Hezbollah, or Lebanese sources.

Now I've reread those articles I posted twice, and I don't see where Kevin's getting this "point" from, so I probably should have just ignored it.


Was that a slip?

They're not supposed to represent any sides of a conflict.

No it was a response to a rhetorical question Kevin fabricated out of his bizzare interpretation of the articles I posted, which I assumed was actually a question from some article to which he posted a link.

Reuters is supposed to be impartial, but a freelance photographer can can be Lebanese, Israeli, private citizen, or government worker, and the viewer will not be presented with this information, even though it might be very relevant.


Finally, the photographer in question admits to using photoshop to edit the image. How can you even defend that?

The photographer only admitted, as far as I know, to retouching dust and scratched out of the image. If you knew anything about the industry, you would know that artifacts are introduced to an image from dust on the lenses, on the film, or on the scanner, and there is NOTHING unethical about cleaning this up in post-production. The difference between what we call "dustbusting" and "retouching" is very significant.


Yet Ziggy's not impressed. He thinks your typical Israeli and your typical Hezbollah supporter are on an equal level.

back that assertion up with some quotes or shut the fuck up. i'm getting a little sick of you fucks redefining my arguments every time i post here.

i'm NOT anti-israel. i'm NOT pro-terrorist. i'm NOT pro-reuters.

you fucks can't get it through your thick heads that I have complaints against all the players in this bullshit. but my biggest complaint lies with the stupid shits on the internet who think they know the truth as though God Himself handed it to them on stone tablets.

get a fucking blog, do your own investigation, and prove it

lol

surely the combined wisdom of the blogosphere has discerned the full truth, if only i had time to read it all, i could be as smart as kevin and abc. :(

but enough of this. you are the good guys here, and good guys are immune to criticism. even when they're wrong, they're still not as wrong as the bad guys. it's about PERSPECTIVE. :rolleyes

so fuck it. i've already wasted way too much time attempting (and clearly failing) to communicate with you.

so you win. i'm done. peace.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Boohoo. Get yourself a tissue.

[Dole]

i'm NOT anti-israel. i'm NOT pro-terrorist. i'm NOT pro-reuters.

you fucks can't get it through your thick heads that I have complaints against all the players in this bullshit. but my biggest complaint lies with the stupid shits on the internet who think they know the truth as though God Himself handed it to them on stone tablets.

AMEN

[Abcdxxxx]

Right, it's the big bad internet bullies who stop you from voicing certain forms of empathy, or rational arguments because god forbid you might be construed as Pro-Israel, Anti-terrorist, Anti-Reuters. You aren't really voicing some middle of the road argument when you're bragging about your own expertise to explain why unethical journalism can be excused, you realize that right?

You don't have the ability to prove a single counter argument, but you're dying to disagree anyway. Spare us. While you think we're twisting your words, what is actually happening is, you're talking out of your ass and then acting all miffed when we respond to your college quad sloganeering the only way someone educated on the issues can possibly respond to a propaganda parrot like you. Of course you think we're drawing conclusions. How could the dots possibly connect for you?

[Abcdxxxx]

AMEN

Dole wants to go to church?

Pick one single strand of this conflict you disagree with me on and we'll debate it. We'll source our arguments, and provide factual substantative rebutals. No non-sequitors, no cutting and pasting from internet hate sites, no conspiracy theories, and no references to secret cabals.

Can you handle handle that?

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

So, does anyone know when the prisoners will be released? With the war over Israel can release plenty of non terrorist combatents and Hezballah can FINALLY give back the kidnapped soldiers.

Oh and I want to say how thankful I am that Turkey is working with Israel to embargo shipments of weapons to Hezballah from Syria. Hezballah/syria tries to break the resolution and Turkey steps up and helps keep it complied, after israel asked yesterday, they grounded and searched Syrian planes for weapons shipments.

Thank God someone is trying to keep the resolution working.

Is anyone else thinking the fact that all the iranians, syrians. and hezballans claiming full victory in this could only encourage more shit down the road? Syria has said today that they would fight a hezballah style war with Israel over the Golan heights which has been Israeli property since the Yom Kippur war when the Syrians tried to wipe Israel off the face of the earth and failed miserably.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/08/18/as_army_deploys_hezbollah_remains/

As army deploys, Hezbollah remains
Lebanon tacitly accepts militia's presence in south
---

So, Lebanon has already disregarded the UN resolution. Apparently Israel is the only country who should get scrutiny for that.

[kahljorn]

I seriously don't understand how people can look at israel with scrutiny after this war, unless it's by some die-hard republican type who thinks they were too wishy-washy and nice ;/

They should've just killed those jerks! Ending wars like this is pointless, it makes all the people who died and all the infrastructure destroyed worthless. All we can really hope is that the UN will actually do something with the resolution. :lol :(


Is israel helping rebuild lebanon's infrastucture? I was hoping that Iraq would become a trend. Occupation, even for things like "Rebuilding"(especially for things like that) is very useful for curbing resentment and resistance, all while presenting themselves as Diplomaticniceguys.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I was wondering the same thing. I know there was a meeting of nations to put money in, and Israel wasn't invited.

[Abcdxxxx]

Is israel helping rebuild lebanon's infrastucture? I was hoping that Iraq would become a trend. Occupation, even for things like "Rebuilding"(especially for things like that) is very useful for curbing resentment and resistance, all while presenting themselves as Diplomaticniceguys.

That's what I kept thinking when people were screaming about the airport taking a hit. Israel practically invented the "Diplomaticniceguys" routine. Lebanon will end up in better financial shape then ever by the time all the aid packages and rebuilding efforts get finished. Israel will probably even assist the Lebanese government in beefing up their military capablities so they're not so defenseless in the future. Plus new offices for Nasrallah's hoodlums.

[Abcdxxxx]

I guess human shields don't work cheap these days.

Hizbullah Pays Lebanese Families $150 Million

Hizbullah Pays Lebanese Families $150 Million 15:23 Aug 18, '06 / 24 Av 5766
(IsraelNN.com) The Hizbullah terrorist organization has further entrenched itself in Lebanon by paying several thousand families $12,000 each. Israel bombed several banks where Hizbullah keeps funds, and Hizbullah has not revealed the source of the money for the aid.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=110343

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Israel's numbers arent the same as the BBCs
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,20119107-5005961,00.html
They say they have positivily identified 130 wanted terrorists kille din lebanon and 530 of the casualties were militant, which means about half of the casualties where human shields.


Israel is pissed at the UN. They have made the demand that of the peacekeeping troops being sent NONE of them should be allowed to come from countries who do not recognize Israel's right to exist and wish them destroyed. TAKE THAT MALAYSIA!

Lebanese President Emile Lahoud said that "Lebanon has not only defeated Israel, but also the plans for the state's partition."
Lahoud made the statement during a speech to the nation that was broadcast on Lebanese media channels.
Big words considering Lebanon NEVER FOUGHT THIS WAR! In comparison this is like Poland saying "we singlehandedly beat the allies, and stpped plans for a nazi third reich"

Prez Bush in one of his moves I approve of (it's been a while) says the violence is Hezballahs fault.

Hollywood stars come out in force to support Israel. If Sylvester Stalone thinks it's obvious it's gotta be pretty obvious.
http://story.irishsun.com/p.x/ct/9/id/cc790ce583cca54a/cid/2411cd3571b4f088/


And on the other border the wife of the kidnapped fox news journalist in gaza is pleading for his release.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Good stuff, do you have a link for that EU info?

[Abcdxxxx]

The peacekeepers were set to arrive Sunday - There are already reports of missile deliveries getting bombed by the IAF while crossing the Lebanese - Syrian border, tonight. What a sham.



Israel is pissed at the UN. They have made the demand that of the peacekeeping troops being sent NONE of them should be allowed to come from countries who do not recognize Israel's right to exist and wish them destroyed. TAKE THAT MALAYSIA!

2/3's of the UN's entire activety since it's formation has been regarding Israel. I don't know what else they expected.

Maylasia was the location the Iranian president made his declaration that "The world would be in the hands of Islam over the next few years", and Malaysia is also the nation with a former PM who declared Jews control the world. You have to be a Muslim to become a Malaysian national, disqualifying the Kafirs, Seihks, and Hindu's. They sound like the PERFECT choice to keep peace against the Zioist entity.

Thank heavens we have the UN to advance this regional conflict into a World , and thank goodness the resolution to send 17,000 peacekeepers to Darfur is expected to be rejected. We wouldn't want to distract the world from the reals problem of our time: Zionist!

[kahljorn]

I think someone asked this earlier but:

WHY DO PEOpLE HATE JEWS?

Is it that time old fear of them moving to our country stealing all of our jobs and taking over our country or something stemming from that? Is it just because they killed Jesus?

PS how did this whole ISRAEL IS THE BAD GUY IN THE LEBANON WAR deal come about? Was that a media pathology?

[Abcdxxxx]

Historically, I think it stems from those who were threatened by dual nationalism, and an adherance to a code of law beyond whatever the ruling powers dictated. Being the oldest, or first brings the type of animosity you don't hear much of from say, the Kurds, or Druze. Christian and Islamic scriptures have some issues built into their text by nature of adopting the Torah attempting to be a continuation.

The rest comes from inferiority complexes and a jealousy for what Jews have accomplished. I lot of people don't like to hear that a minority group which makes up 0.25% of the world population, or less then 2.0% of the US population has been so accomplished and influential. That pisses people off. I'm sure people reading that right now are irked and want me to shut the fuck up just for mentioning it.

The thing about asking why is, it doesn't really matter why. Asking why makes it sound like there's a reason. Really irrational bigotry doesn't have any reasoning.

[Preechr]

Nono... you explained it pretty well. I'm sure a lot of people better understand why they should hate you now.

...and knowledge is power!

[Preechr]

I had a guy try to explain it to me once by pulling a bunch of cans and bottles out my cabinets and fridge, showing me all the "secret" symbols on most of them that prove Jews run the world.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Good stuff, do you have a link for that EU info?
curses, i misrepresented. I was reading an article about the EU investigation and this article and got them mixed up.

http://ussneverdock.blogspot.com/2006/08/lebanon-530-hezbollah-terrorists.html

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,20119107-5005961,00.html

I withdraw my statement, I'm not Reuters. This number came from Israel so it is be biased.

I am very embarrassed about this, i haven't posted at news websites in years and i forgot to always post a link and double check all sources. I read this at work int he morning and posted later at home and got mixed up.

I'm very sorry, it won't happen again.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

uh, that's ok.

This is swell:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/08/20/MNGK9KLVH41.DTL

Hezbollah night-vision gear was from Britain, Israel says
It's believed to be an export to Iran in drug-fighting effort

- Matthew Kalman, Chronicle Foreign Service
Sunday, August 20, 2006

(08-20) 04:00 PDT Kiryat Shemona, Israel -- Israeli intelligence officials have complained to Britain and the United States that sensitive night-vision equipment recovered from Hezbollah fighters during the war in Lebanon had been exported by Britain to Iran. British officials said the equipment had been intended for use in a U.N. anti-narcotics campaign.

Israeli officials say they believe the state-of-the-art equipment, found in Hezbollah command-and-control headquarters in southern Lebanon during the just-concluded war, was part of a British government-approved shipment of 250 pieces of night-vision equipment sent to Iran in 2003.

Israeli military intelligence confirmed that one of the pieces of equipment is a Thermo-vision 1000 LR tactical night-vision system, serial No. 155010, part No. 193960, manufactured by Agema, a high-tech equipment company with branches in Bedfordshire, England, and San Diego. A spokesman for Agema in San Diego denied all knowledge of the system.

The equipment, which needed special export-license approval from the British government, was passed to the Iranians through a program run and administered by the U.N. Drug Control Program. The equipment uses infrared imaging to provide nighttime surveillance that allows the user to detect people and vehicles moving in the dark at a range of several miles.

I just don't understand why the UN insists on being a rubber stamp for terrorists. Certainly the British and italians are at fault here as well, but how does the UN "sponsor" this program? Is there any monitoring, or inventory done on equipment shipped to friggin Iran?

[kahljorn]

I read that Hezbollah was helping to rebuild Lebanon by giving money to people who's homes had been destroyed. 12,000 US dollars worth.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Yeah, they must've gotten all that cash from all those Hezbollah bake sales and car wash fundraisers.

This is the same argument that comes up with Hamas-- Sure they're terrorists and anti-semites, but they do so much in the community! Hell, Even Iran's president ran on a populist platform to improve the struggling Iranian economy. How's that working out? He spends most days blaming all of the Middle East's problems on Israel.

[kahljorn]

Yea it's just like gang members.

Anyway, terrible horrible dictatorish non-providing rulers are pretty rare these days. in any political institution you have to "Give to the people" or do other things to make the people like you or at least keep them from revolting. Naturally there's a diplomatic foothold in helping people around you, it's almost as good as bribing someone This idea has been understood for a long time by rulers and pretty much anyone with a brain who realizes that there's breaking points. Not that I'm saying they necessarily don't love their community or people, but thinking politicians are selfless when they give is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Regardless of if you're providing for your people or not, though, that doesn't mean how you treat other people is nice or correct, or that you should be allowed ot commit evil because you do one or two nice things. HEY YOU BRUTALLY KILLED THIS GUY BUT I SAW YOU HELP THAT OLD LADY CROSS THE STREET SO YOURE FREE TO GO.

[Abcdxxxx]

They studied how social programs were used in Germany, that's all. it should be pretty transparent by now. It's supposed to shame the international community who will no doubt still be sending aid without even a trace of accountability for the funds. This isn't meant to be aid so much as a reward for sustaining a loss. They're on salary, just another element of the propaganda machine. Like a bonus for storming the UN offices, and creating the illusion of an impromptu Nasrallah rally in the middle an Israeli bombing campaign that's supposed to be so devastating they can't evacuating to safety isn't an option.

Not to mention the US dollars are probably counterfit. Can you buy a Coke-a-cola with Dhimmi dollars in Hezbollistan?

[kahljorn]

It's funny because I was actually thinking of the german social programs when I made that post. :O

[derrida]

So, can we tally up the score now?

Does it bother everyone who was basically in favor of this that the bombing really didn't do much of anything? All the hand-wringing and all we get is an international peacekeeping force comprised of arab muslims whose home nations probably don't recognize the state of Israel.

The IDF is saying they only killed about 500 Hezzbollah fighters in addition to however many civilian sympathizers/human shields/total dumbasses. (which are possibly going to cost Dan Halutz his job) The IDF is also reporting 118 casualties. Five to one isn't great for counter-insurgency warfare. We're at ten to one in Iraq and we all see how well that's going. Furthermore, Mossad and Shin Bet weren't even able to penetrate the lower levels of a nationwde popular organization, let alone get an idea of what they were gonna be up against when they came over the border. (hint: tunnels and RPG 29s)

[kahljorn]

Well.. ok.. counter-insurgency warfare? That seems the wrong term for a war that was fought over a border with missile strikes etc. I didn't think there was much actual fighting. I don't see how doing five to one is bad at all :( Please explain.

If hezbollah was fighting with soldiers, would they use guerilla tactics(it seems like they used some guerilla tactics even with their missile strikes)? Just curious because doing five to one against gurillas is pretty good. Considering guerillas are typically small units designed to fight against larger units based on the premise that they should kill more bad guys than take casualties. In that line of thought their forces failed.

Outside of that this war was ghey. More lives lost for no good reason.

how is the war in iraq going bad? In the past occupations of cities would often be contested for years, and the "insurgency" may go on for years as well. Do you think that 3,000 years ago when an army would occupy a territory everybody who was living/fighting there would just shrug their shoulders and walk away?
I've always been interested in why people think the war in iraq is going bad.

[Preechr]

That's what happens when any possible rational perspective is obscured by naive notions of civilian casualties, torture and other non-issues. We are drunk on our own free lifestyle, blind to realities in other civilizations. Everything is a human interest story these days, and no one is to be blamed for anything that happens to them. The bigger guy is always guilty in any confrontation, be it Wal-mart or Israel, Exxon or the US. No one asks the Katrina victims or the Lebanon evacuees why the fuck they stuck around until far too late with no back up plan... We all just want to know about the hardships they endured at the hands of the bigger guy.

Iraqi citizens are, just like everyone else in the news, victims. Whenever you see a victim, you look for their victimizer. That person or entity is, by default, the bigger guy. There is no opportunity for everyday Iraqis to be seen in a hopeful light, because they are in the news, and thus victims. The only bigger guy in this equation is us.

[Abcdxxxx]

It's way too early to "tally the scores".

I wouldn't cry for Halutz of Olmert or any of them. If the IDF took a defeat, it was really at the hands of it's own administration.

I would agree, there really was no reason for them to underestimated how intertwined Iran would be in a offensive attack by Hezbollah. Iran's capabilities should be considered Hezbollah's capabilities. Many Israelis are naive, and do not realize that while they've spent 15 years learning peace songs, the Arabs have been breeding animals for the sole purpose of wiping Israel off the map. To that end, neither side achieved their goals - it was a squirmish. The benefit to Israel is knowing who they're fighting against, and weakening Iran's second line in any possible attack on Israel. If we play the numbers game (not the best way to judge these battles though) 500 Hezbollah casualties is a huge hit considering estimates of an army of 1000, and possibly 10,000 reservists. Israel's 150 casualties, out of a force between 10,000-30,000 were largely due to their own self defeating strategy, putting their lives in danger to avoid casualties - or just outright idiotic positioning. Israel's initial reserve numbers in the 300,000 range but if shit hits the fan, you'll see more then half the country suit up, and every veteran from Dr. Ruth on down, hopping on a plane, and grabbing their walkers and their uzis. Anyway, in that regard, Israel did okay. In reality, I don't think anyone feels they lost 150 men in exchange for accomplishing anything aside from maybe Lebanon putting it's army in the South again.

Of course, if a small percentage of the entire Arab world just up and decides to rush the borders, Israel is dog meat. Like I've been saying, this has always been Israel vs. the Arab/Islamic world.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Does it bother everyone who was basically in favor of this that the bombing really didn't do much of anything? All the hand-wringing and all we get is an international peacekeeping force comprised of arab muslims whose home nations probably don't recognize the state of Israel.

1. Israel is objecting to the latter problem.

2. What exactly do you think was Israel's goal? To be attacked? To have two of their soldiers kidnapped?

From the very beginning, Israel asked that Lebanon control their own borders, and disarm Hezbollah. It won't happen, but it's what the UN asked Lebanon to do two years ago, and they're asking them again. Maybe they could, I dunno, do it? It would've spared over 1,000 lives.

Israel's goal is to be secure. If this resolution fails, as it undoubtedly will once Hezbollah rests up and rearms, Israel will continue to defende herself.

Your tone gives the implication that Israel had bigger plans. Would they feel more secure with a more democratic, Hezbollah free Lebanon? Sure, but they were attacked and they defended their country.

"Mossad and Shin Bet weren't even able to penetrate the lower levels of a nationwde popular organization, let alone get an idea of what they were gonna be up against when they came over the border. (hint: tunnels and RPG 29s)"

Um, and? Israel has never argued that Hezbollah is some underdog insurgency. That's a myth promoted by the Arab world, but the Israelis have always known better.

Is it a surprise that a well funded, well trained, and well armed paramilitary unit managed to stay alive and put up a fight?

I'm not exactly sure what your point is with your score card. Israel could've carpet bombed all of Lebanon, rather than using targeted bombings and infrastructure targets. That probably would've done away with Hezbollah, but it also would've killed a lot more people. Maybe Israel didn't "score" so high in your book, but that's what happens when one side plays by the rules and the other does not.

[Preechr]

Off point: The state of humbleness (not humility) is heroism.

[Abcdxxxx]

Pure comedy, and an admission of guilt!


Hezbollah head didn't foresee such a war
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060827/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_nasrallah;_ylt=Asa3_GY4kresisD37QwbzRpvaA8 F;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--
By ZEINA KARAM, Associated Press Writer Sun Aug 27, 7:18 PM ET
BEIRUT, Lebanon - Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah said in a TV interview aired Sunday that he would not have ordered the capture of two Israeli soldiers if he had known it would lead to such a war.

ADVERTISEMENT

Guerrillas from the Islamic militant group killed three Israeli soldiers and seized two more in a cross-border raid July 12, which sparked 34 days of fighting that ended with a cease-fire on Aug. 14.

"We did not think, even 1 percent, that the capture would lead to a war at this time and of this magnitude. You ask me, if I had known on July 11 ... that the operation would lead to such a war, would I do it? I say no, absolutely not," he said in an interview with Lebanon's New TV station.

He also said Italy and the United Nations had made contacts to help mediate a prisoner swap with Israel, but did not specify whether they had contacted Hezbollah directly. He did not say in what capacity Italy had expressed interest — on its own or on Israel's behalf.

Nasrallah said Lebanese Parliament Speaker Nabih Berri was in charge of the negotiations and the subject would be discussed during U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan's visit to Beirut on Monday.

There had been "some contacts" to arrange a meeting between him and Annan, he said, but that was unlikely for security reasons.

"The Italians seem to be getting close and are trying to get into the subject. The United Nations is interested," Nasrallah said. "The Israelis have acknowledged that this (issue) is headed for negotiations and a (prisoners) exchange."

A senior Israeli government official declined to comment on such contacts, saying only that Israel "does not negotiate with terrorists" and continues to demand the unconditional release of the two soldiers. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to discuss the matter with the media.

Earlier Sunday, Israeli Vice Premier Shimon Peres said no negotiations were being held on a prisoner release.

"Right now no, but I expect that concerning the prisoners in the north, we shall have to wait until the Lebanese government will take charge completely over its land in accordance with the U.N. resolution," he said.

Israeli military officials said earlier this month that Israel is holding 13 Hezbollah prisoners and the bodies of dozens of guerrillas that it could swap for the two captive soldiers, but would not include any Palestinian prisoners in such a deal.

Also Sunday, 245 French soldiers arrived at Beirut's airport to help the Lebanese army rebuild bridges destroyed or damaged by Israeli air strikes.

The troops were separate from a French contribution of 2,000 soldiers to the U.N. Interim Force in Lebanon, known as UNIFIL, which was being expanded to 15,000 members under the U.N. Security Council resolution that ended the Israel-Hezbollah war.

"Our job is to work jointly with the Lebanese army in rebuilding bridges. The French troops will be here for about one and a half months at least," said Lt. Philip Toroller, an officer of the French military mission based at the French Embassy in Beirut. He said the troops would go first to Damour, a coastal town south of Beirut, where they would begin work before moving to other areas in south Lebanon.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert had received assurances from Annan that new peacekeepers would be on the ground in Lebanon within a week, the prime minister's office said in a statement.

The UNIFIL force is paid for out of the budget of the United Nations, which is made up of member states' annual contributions, and the new expansion of the force will come out of the same budget, said Timur Goksel, a former head of UNIFIL.

American civil rights leader the Rev. Jesse Jackson said he raised the issue of a prisoner swap in talks with President Bashar Assad during a visit, but he did not elaborate on the Syrian leader's response.

Jackson was in Damascus on the first leg of a tour that also included stops in Lebanon and Israel. He said he was there to gauge the "views" of Syrian, Lebanese and Israeli officials, and to appeal to them to stick to the U.N.-brokered cease-fire.

Nasrallah, whose whereabouts are unknown as he went into hiding on the first day of the war, also said he did not believe a second bout of fighting would break out with Israel, even though he said more than half his group's rocket arsenal was still left.

"The current Israeli situation, and the available information tells us that we are not heading to another round," he said.

However, he called any possible attacks on Israeli troops "legitimate" as long as even one Israeli soldier remained in Lebanon.

Lebanese officials have said continuing Israeli overflights violate the 2-week-old cease-fire, and Annan proclaimed an Israeli commando raid one week into the truce a violation. Hezbollah has not retaliated, but Nasrallah said the group would "choose the time and place" to strike back.

"If we have been patient until now, it does not mean we will be patient forever, but we are not obliged to reveal the limits of our patience," he said.

Meanwhile, Malaysia urged the United Nations to let its soldiers join the peacekeeping force despite Israel's opposition to troops from predominantly Muslim nations without diplomatic ties to the Jewish state.

Malaysian troops "will not take sides and will do the job according to the U.N. mandate," Foreign Minister Syed Hamid Albar said, according to the state Bernama news agency.

"Our record (in peacekeeping missions) is good," he said. "But, if the U.N. wants to heed to the wishes of Israel, what can we do?"

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Kofi Annan in typical two faced fashion is calling for the release of the soldiers kidnapped and DEMANDING Israel stop the blockade that prevents weapons from getting to the Hezballan troops and breaking the treaty.

I wonder what religion Annan belongs to and what country is he from? This might explain his leanings a bit.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Yeah, they must've gotten all that cash from all those Hezbollah bake sales and car wash fundraisers.

This is the same argument that comes up with Hamas-- Sure they're terrorists and anti-semites, but they do so much in the community! Hell, Even Iran's president ran on a populist platform to improve the struggling Iranian economy. How's that working out? He spends most days blaming all of the Middle East's problems on Israel.

Hitler got the streets paved and reduced crime too. The Nazi party was prior to the war known for social programs. Nazi is after all short for the National Socialist party.

Of course killing all the prisoners and people in asylums or with any health problem sure freed up the money for the other social programs.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

abc, what do you think is behind this Nasrallah mea cullpa? Is this just another attempt to promote their underdog, victim image, or is Nasrallah perhaps bowing to pressures from Iran and/or Syria???

"This is what terrorist democracy looks like?"

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Remember when during week one of the war they uncovered the American $100 conterfeiting in Hezballah controlled financial district the FBI has been looking for since 2002? Anyone else think, and this may be me being paranoid but, does anyone else think the money Iran is giving Hezballh may be the same money Hezballah was counterfieting, being returned and laundered through Iran? Hezballah was founded by Iranian gaurds in othr countries.

We wonder where they get the money since their banks where blown up in the war but we forget they were caught counterfieting, and where you counterfeit you need to launder as far away as possible.

[Abcdxxxx]

Anyone else think, and this may be me being paranoid but, does anyone else think the money Iran is giving Hezballh may be the same money Hezballah was counterfieting, being returned and laundered through Iran?

There's all sorts of blog world speculation as to the origins and usage of $100 American bills in Lebanon. I don't think anyone has found the conclusive proof like with the Reuturs stuff, but we can all put two and two together.

[Abcdxxxx]

abc, what do you think is behind this Nasrallah mea cullpa? Is this just another attempt to promote their underdog, victim image, or is Nasrallah perhaps bowing to pressures from Iran and/or Syria???

"This is what terrorist democracy looks like?"

Misquote maybe? Nasrallah is dealing from pressures from all sides this week in particular. Kofi did't last more then 10 minutes in Hezbollah land, Iran is sending 500 million in aid to Shia villages, Syria are being pressured to negotiate with Israel and they've been cutting power in Southern Lebanon, all the while Lebanon's government can't figure out which way is ass up but they are talking about a treaty with Israel for the first time since 1948 (they too hold an Israeli soldier captive for 20 years and are about to release new video of him), and even some of Nassrallah's own Shia population are speaking out against Hezbollah ....and then his number two guy lost his son on the battlefield.

in either case, there was some interesting speculation at debka:
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1201

This editoria challenges the idea that Hezbollah have done what no other Arab army have pulled off against the IDF:
http://www.reason.com/links/links082406.shtml

All that said, Arutz7 (IsraelNN) reported that the IDF wants out of Lebanon quick because Hezbollah have re-armed and they're sitting ducks. In the old days that would have been the reason they would have wanted to stay in there and fight.