Who here is Jewish?

[Archduke Tips]

I'm not, but I have people ask me about two or three times a month if I am Jewish. Sometimes I sing hava-nagila (sp?) when they ask.

JEW POWERS UNITE!

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

I'm part jewish and love the culture. I don't have enough in me to be considered a jew or be offended by Kyle jokes on South Park, but i tend to side with Israel and know my way around aincent Hebrew.

[Archduke Tips]

I think if I learned Hebrew I could probably pass myself off as an Israeli.

I think if I went to Lebanon I would be dead in about 2 hours or less.

But I was raised Roman Catholic, and all I believe right now is that I should always keep myself on the path that God presents for me. That's what I've done so far and it has been pretty good.

[Abcdxxxx]

Pretty much everyone here accept for Geggy and Ziggy. Burbank's a convert, no matter he says. It's gonna be really hard to round us all up.

[Marc Summers]

Partly jewish, from the maternal side

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Pretty much everyone here accept for Geggy and Ziggy. Burbank's a convert, no matter he says. It's gonna be really hard to round us all up.

Cool this forum controls hollywood and the media, TAKE THAT MEL GIBSON!

[DuFresne]

I'm a Roman Catholic Jewish Agnostic. Go figure.

[Miss Modular]

I'm not, but I have people ask me about two or three times a month if I am Jewish. Sometimes I sing hava-nagila (sp?) when they ask.

I got a lot of this when I was in college. If anything, It got me very interested in exploring my Catholic background a LOT more.

I find Judaism very fascinating.

[DuFresne]

I-mockery does'nt seem to attract many protestants, does it?

[ArrowX]

I'm a scientologist, now gimme all yer moneys!

Actually I dont' consider myself anything. I find most religions really fascinating because they all go to war and fight and murder and die for in esscence the same ideas and morals, escept for the Crazy Muslims I stay away from that stuff.

[Archduke Tips]

I got a lot of this when I was in college. If anything, It got me very interested in exploring my Catholic background a LOT more.

I find Judaism very fascinating.

Do your ancestors come from Italy?

[Grislygus]

Strange. People seem to think that I'm Jewish, too. I've even discovered recently that two close friends thought I was Jewish.

[Miss Modular]

Do your ancestors come from Italy?

No. Ireland, Austria, and Germany, actually.

But I do wish I was Italian. :(

[conus]

I'm a former Protestant, an atheist with strong Israeli sympathies, probably because I'm old enough to have grown up under the shadow of the holocaust. As kids we played army, a theme we saw again and again on television shows. We had heard stories of lampshades and soap and would talk about it. Israel's actions sometimes disgust me, but I can't bring myself to side against them.

[DuFresne]

whoa... how old are you? :eek If you're not lying, you've gotta be the oldest one here!

[Archduke Tips]

So the obvious thing to do here is to start a "People Who Look Jewish" club.

[conus]

52

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

if you saw my nose you'd think i'm jewish

[mburbank]

OMG, CONUS!! You have taken my oldest living Mocker Crown!!

I'm 44, and you are now the foocial old guy.

As for Jewsihness, haven't we done this before?

Convert, schmonvert. Abcderfefs refers to the fact that I am a member of a Unitarian church. Unitrianism is creddless, an I have yet to see any Jewishj doctrine that says you loose your Jewishness by being a Unitarian any more than by being a Rotarian. I'm all Jew all the way back to the Russian conversion.

I'm not proud of it, because I don't believe in pride over something you are born. I'm not proud of my black hair either. But I'm certainly not ashamed of my Jewishocity. Or my hair.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

52

Are you serious?

Here I was assuming you were like a college freshman or something, good grief....

[conus]

Here I was assuming you were like a college freshman or something, good grief....


Well, at one point I was a college freshman. At that time Gerald Ford was getting all excited over what might happen next.

Speaking of which, you are still in high school aren't you? Truthfully, the only reason I'm here is that they kicked me out of My Space. I read one of your posts and naturally assumed...


__________________________________________________ __

[mburbank]

Whip Inflation Now, Baby! Doesn't it make you all nostalgic having so many members of Ford's administration back in the White House? Is Kevin a punk whipper snapper or what?

[conus]

Yeah, there's a whole slew of them.

Here are a couple of White House Chiefs of Staff. Note the little evil one on the left when he had hair, and, presumably, before he'd shot anyone.
http://www.backyardvoyager.com/rumschen.jpg

Here's another of Rummy
http://www.backyardvoyager.com/Ford-rumsfeld.jpg


__________________________________________________

[J. Tithonus Pednaud]

My understainding is that f your mother was Jewish then you are Jewish, in terms of faith and not just race, regardless of religious beliefs. You could convert to Christianity, become Buddhist or even become anit-semite - you will be Jewish and counted amoung them by the religious leaders.

[Archduke Tips]

Or you could look like a Jew and get into countless barmitzavahaaslkjs and not even know how to spell anything remotely Jewish.

[Abcdxxxx]

The Torah states that it is not a matter of choice; rather it is God’s command. You could convert to Christianity, become Buddhist or even become anit-semite - you will be Jewish and counted amoung them by the religious leaders.

unless you worship a golden calf or something.

read the torah before you tell us what it says.

[ziggytrix]

Pretty much everyone here accept for Geggy and Ziggy. Burbank's a convert, no matter he says. It's gonna be really hard to round us all up.

actually, i'm like 1/32 jewish on my dad's side if that means anything. which it doesn't. so never mind.

[Abcdxxxx]

Nope, neither did this apparently....

From: ziggytrix
To: Abcdxxxx
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:37 pm
Subject: Fuck you and good day ;)
Quote:
"You don't have the ability to prove a single counter argument, but you're dying to disagree anyway. Spare us."

You don't have the ability to comprehend a counter argument that doesn't jive with your viewpoint, so I will spare you further "debate" in the Politics forum.

Have a nice fucking life.

[ziggytrix]

i didn't come here for an argument :P

[Jeanette X]

Judaism is strange in that it is based primarily on blood and not belief.

Judaism is open to any sincere convert, you utter fucking moron.

And yes, I'm a Jew and this had better not turn into another Israel debate thread.

[Abcdxxxx]

'tis true. some of our greatest sages happened to also have been converts. It's not the Orthodoxy sponsoring the studies in genetics. It's not like they test you when you walk into a Synagogue, or hand out membership cards demanding proof of a certain percentage bloodline.

[J. Tithonus Pednaud]

Judaism is strange in that it is based primarily on blood and not belief.

Judaism is open to any sincere convert, you utter fucking moron.

And yes, I'm a Jew and this had better not turn into another Israel debate thread.

I didn't say it wasn't, you fucking douche.

What I said - if your read the rest of the post - was according to the Torah, basically 'once a Jew always a Jew' according to bloodline. Any Rabbi will tell you the same thing. Though variables between the faiths (Orthodox, Conservative, etc) vary in requirments - usually if your mother is Jewish (Judaism's law of matrilineal descent) then you are automatically too, though a Reconstructionist rabbi would say either parent. This is all in The Talmud as well as the Torah.

Of course it's open to any convert, it is a religion - and one of the better ones for that matter.

And I have read the Torah, as well as Book of Haftaroth.

I didn't say once during my post that you had to be of Jewish blood to practice Judaism.

READ, you moron, before jumping on someone.

[FartinMowler]

if you throw in some wit you will be a winner :)

[Jeanette X]

Judaism is strange in that it is based primarily on blood and not belief.

Judaism is open to any sincere convert, you utter fucking moron.

And yes, I'm a Jew and this had better not turn into another Israel debate thread.

Of course it's open to any convert, it is a religion - and one of the better ones for that matter.

And I have read the Torah, as well as Book of Haftaroth.

I didn't say once during my post that you had to be of Jewish blood to practice Judaism.

READ, you moron, before jumping on someone.

You said that it was based PRIMARILY on blood and NOT belief, douchie mcfucktard.

[FartinMowler]

I think I feel a conflict coming on :(

[Abcdxxxx]

What I said - if your read the rest of the post - was according to the Torah, basically 'once a Jew always a Jew' according to bloodline......

And I have read the Torah, as well as Book of Haftaroth.



Yeah but the picture version translated for some Later Day Saints probably isn't the most accurate edition.

[FartinMowler]

Do Jewish people get angry? I know they get verklempt :/

[J. Tithonus Pednaud]

I didn't say once during my post that you had to be of Jewish blood to practice Judaism.

READ, you moron, before jumping on someone.

You said that it was based PRIMARILY on blood and NOT belief, douchie mcfucktard.

And?

Last I checked, PRIMARILY does't mean ONLY. It in no way excludes the idea of converts.

But fine I will conceed, because 'douchie mcfucktard' made me laugh out loud. Perhaps it wasn't the best word to use. But what would you suggest I use, ummm, Twaty MacDouchenfuck?

I thought primary fit. It is a big part of the religion and, if you view the Jewish just as a race ( I was referring to both in my original text), I would say bloodline IS primary.

Know of any asians who converted to caucasian?

But hey, if that is the only bone choking you 'll, take that out. You agree with the rest then?

What was your point again?

EDIT

Whoa, you know, in re-reading that first line I can see how things could be missunderstood. I should not have started with the word 'Judaism' as I was actually intending to refer to both the religion and the race. Judaism is, of course, the religion...and no, that is not based primarily on blood though it does sometimes have a role.

My bad, and a well deserved burn.

[J. Tithonus Pednaud]

What I said - if your read the rest of the post - was according to the Torah, basically 'once a Jew always a Jew' according to bloodline......

And I have read the Torah, as well as Book of Haftaroth.



Yeah but the picture version translated for some Later Day Saints probably isn't the most accurate edition.

True, but I did color within the lines, so that should count for something. And the pop-up sections were enlightening.

I have no fixed religion, though I do have a degree in Theology. Which is why I own a couple of Torahs - one a horrible Greek translation.

[Abcdxxxx]

Such qualifications. You should teach Sunday school. The Jews could use more goyim like you telling us what the Torah says.

p.s. I doubt you own a Torah - you own some translations.

[Jeanette X]

I didn't say once during my post that you had to be of Jewish blood to practice Judaism.

READ, you moron, before jumping on someone.

You said that it was based PRIMARILY on blood and NOT belief, douchie mcfucktard.

And?

Last I checked, PRIMARILY does't mean ONLY. It in no way excludes the idea of converts.

I thought primary fit. It is a big part of the religion and, if you view the Jewish just as a race ( I was referring to both in my original text), I would say bloodline IS primary.



Bloodline isn't anywhere near as important as you think it is. It matters to some of the more orthodox, but to most mainstream Jews, it doesn't really matter for shit, unless its for something like Israeli citizenship. It certainly is not the "primary" qualification to be a member of the Jewish religion.

Know of any asians who converted to caucasian?

What's that supposed to mean? That converting to Judaism is as impossible as an Asian converting to Caucasian? What kind of analogy are you trying to draw here?

You can be ethnically Jewish without being religiously Jewish, and vice-versa. The two are often intertwined, but you don't have to be one to be the other.

[J. Tithonus Pednaud]

Such qualifications. You should teach Sunday school. The Jews could use more goyim like you telling us what the Torah says.

p.s. I doubt you own a Torah - you own some translations.

Yes, I do own a Hebrew Torah, inherited from a Jewish uncle, and a Greek translated version. But no, I have never read the entire Torah in the original Hebrew and as I conceeded the Greek version is considered a very bad traslation done for Ptolemy. Though, that is besides the point. I am not breaking any ground here nor do I claim to be an expert. What I have stated about the bloodline concepts of being Jewish is common stuff.

I am not trying to tell you what the Torah says, which is why I have not quoted from it. I am sure you know what is says.

But I believe what I have stated is pretty well common knowledge. None of it revolutionary. Bloodlines, the Torah and concept of divine imperative covers all that was said here. Is there something in particular rubbing you the wrong way, or is it just the idea of a goyim on your turf enough?

[Abcdxxxx]

You can be an Asian Jew - by bloodline or by conversion.

So Jews are more of an ethnicity then a race, and again, it's not the Rebbenute doing the genetic studies to prove that one way or another. The Lubavitchers never turn anyone away, Jewish or otherwise, and they're the largest movement of Hadisim in the world right now.

It's the Ultra-Orthodox who have a monopoly on conversions recognized for Israeli citizenship, but the restrictions are not that different from other nations like Jordan. The acceptance of conversions is a denominational thing, and depends on region, sect, etc. without consistancy over history. The only time it becomes an issue for some Rabbis is when you want to get married, have a bris, get a divorce, make up a minyon at a synagogue.

[J. Tithonus Pednaud]

I didn't say once during my post that you had to be of Jewish blood to practice Judaism.

READ, you moron, before jumping on someone.

You said that it was based PRIMARILY on blood and NOT belief, douchie mcfucktard.

And?

Last I checked, PRIMARILY does't mean ONLY. It in no way excludes the idea of converts.

I thought primary fit. It is a big part of the religion and, if you view the Jewish just as a race ( I was referring to both in my original text), I would say bloodline IS primary.



Bloodline isn't anywhere near as important as you think it is. It matters to some of the more orthodox, but to most mainstream Jews, it doesn't really matter for shit, unless its for something like Israeli citizenship. It certainly is not the "primary" qualification to be a member of the Jewish religion.

Know of any asians who converted to caucasian?

What's that supposed to mean? That converting to Judaism is as impossible as an Asian converting to Caucasian? What kind of analogy are you trying to draw here?

You can be ethnically Jewish without being religiously Jewish, and vice-versa. The two are often intertwined, but you don't have to be one to be the other.

Okay, again and the last time simply because I know we are on the same page here but things are being lost in the translation. We are so close to an understanding.

One, I agree bloodline is not important to being Jewish (faith). Not a bit. What I was saying is it is possible to be born Jewish in both race and faith (Here is a letter from someone asking if they need to convert).

http://www.schechter.edu/askrabbi/conversion_mother_adopted.htm

Two, the point about asian and caucasian was more of a joke. I was refering to Jewish as a race and not a religion. In which case blood would definetly be a primary requirment. I am caucasian because my father and mother are, for example.

And I agree 100% with your final statement as well. In Orthodox Judiasm, the two are indeed very much intertwined.

[J. Tithonus Pednaud]

You can be an Asian Jew - by bloodline or by conversion.

So Jews are more of an ethnicity then a race, and again, it's not the Rebbenute doing the genetic studies to prove that one way or another. The Lubavitchers never turn anyone away, Jewish or otherwise, and they're the largest movement of Hadisim in the world right now.

It's the Ultra-Orthodox who have a monopoly on conversions recognized for Israeli citizenship, but the restrictions are not that different from other nations like Jordan. The acceptance of conversions is a denominational thing, and depends on region, sect, etc. without consistancy over history. The only time it becomes an issue for some Rabbis is when you want to get married, have a bris, get a divorce, make up a minyon at a synagogue.

Anyone can be Jewish.

I agree with all of that 100% as well.

As with any religion. The old ways die hard only only come up sporatically - but still come up.

[Chojin]

Titus, you don't have to apologize to anyone here. They're just looking to yell at something and you happen to be in the way.

[Chojin]

Know of any asians who converted to caucasian?
There's that kid from Super Troopers...

[J. Tithonus Pednaud]

Titus, you don't have to apologize to anyone here. They're just looking to yell at something and you happen to be in the way.

Hey, I apologize when I am in the wrong and my intial post on this subject was a poorly worded throw away. While basically a correct observation - that according to Orthodox rules one can be born Jewish in both race and religion - had I chosen my words carefully it would not have been an issue.

I got burned for good reason and I'll bend over and take it like a man.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

There is adifference between hebrew, and jew.

Hebrews can be buddhist christian or whatever although they are predominantly jew or atheist.

Asians/ blacks/ whites CAN convert to judaism and be a full memember of that religion, even Moses's father in law converted to judiasm, and Rahab the Harlot was a Canaanite who converted and was in the lineage of king David.

An asian can't become hebrew, but he CAN become a practicer and mmeber of the judiasm.

also i love the term douchie mcfuctard and request permission to use it on another verklemfpt forum.

[J. Tithonus Pednaud]

I don't know, I wanted to get some douchie mcfuctard t-shirts or something. Maybe 'I'm with douchie mcfuctard' ones as well.

It appears comedian David Cross made the following observation:

I'm an atheist, I don't believe in God, so therefore I would think that I can't be Jewish, basically because ... Judaism is predicated on a belief in God. So if I don't believe in God I can't be Jewish right? But... no... you can't. Judaism is the only religion that does this, it came up with this bullshit, arbitrary rule, that if your mother's Jewish, then you're Jewish. So it doesn't matter what I believe in, just Jew for life.

[Abcdxxxx]

It doesn't make you a Jew, it makes you a descendent of Jews and with that comes both the biblical burden/priviledge (that you're welcome to ignore like, most modern Jews do). Judaic lineage is based on spiritual souls and not bloodlines. Look into how Jews percieve death.

Judaism is not the only religion that does this, by the way.

Courage - I'm not sure I'm following you with the difference between a Hebrew and a Jew. There are Chinese Jews who are every bit as Jewish as the Mesopotamian Hebrews. Their tribes trace all the way back without any conversions needed. Same with the Jews of India.

[Miss Modular]

Judaism is open to any sincere convert, you utter fucking moron.


Marilyn Monroe and Elizabeth Taylor were/are Jewish converts.

[mburbank]

Thi argument is totally Jewish.

My Dad always said if you saw two Jewish boys waiting for the subway and they were arguing, the argument was about which of them was a better Jew. If they weren't arguing, they were agreeing that they were both better Jews than some third, currently not present Jew they knew.


Of course, that was back when Brooklyn was the Old World.

PS: Know who else is Jewish? Jewbacca.

[Archduke Tips]

The singer of Disturbed is Jewish.

The singer of System of a Down is from Israel.

[Abcdxxxx]

My Dad always said if you saw two Jewish boys waiting for the subway and they were arguing, the argument was about which of them was a better Jew. If they weren't arguing, they were agreeing that they were both better Jews than some third, currently not present Jew they knew.

No wonder.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Judaism is strange in that it is based primarily on blood and not belief.

Judaism is open to any sincere convert, you utter fucking moron.

And yes, I'm a Jew and this had better not turn into another Israel debate thread.

Of course it's open to any convert, it is a religion - and one of the better ones for that matter.

And I have read the Torah, as well as Book of Haftaroth.

I didn't say once during my post that you had to be of Jewish blood to practice Judaism.

READ, you moron, before jumping on someone.

You said that it was based PRIMARILY on blood and NOT belief, douchie mcfucktard.

Does anyone have any stats on the number of converts to Judaism vs the average birth rate of Jews worldwide?

That would settle the argument, I think.

[mburbank]

No wonder what, Abcdxzdchzdfkjd? That I don't support the policies of Israel or that I'm a self hating Jew? Or some other 'no wonder' that I can't even begin to guess at because your intrapersonal development stopped at age three and you think everyone has access to your thoughts?

[Abcdxxxx]

No wonder. It speaks for itself.

We can deduct the message of your dad's joke and wonder how you ended up as warped as you did.

[Jeanette X]

The singer of System of a Down is from Israel.

No, he's from Armenia.

[Archduke Tips]

Oh okay that place is cool.

So how can I "pimp my jew" and make people think I am even more jew and a pimp.

Maybe a large gold star of david hanging round my neck. Jewel encrusted hannukah. And of course when I say hannukah I mean whatever that head deal is. fuck yeah that thing yeah.

The root word of "Jewel" is "Jew."

[The Good Reverend Roger]

So how can I "pimp my jew" and make people think I am even more jew and a pimp.



You'll need a couple of Hasidic thugs rolling with you.

[mburbank]

"No wonder. It speaks for itself.

We can deduct the message of your dad's joke and wonder how you ended up as warped as you did."
-Abcdefgh

Wait, is it 'no wonder' or does it 'make you wonder'? You need to express yourself more clearly.

What would you say is the message of the joke?

I'd say it is a sweeping generalization stating that Jews are argumentative and overly concerned with religous status as oppposed to piety. It's also a commentary on how Brooklyn Jews of my fathers class felt a need to own more truth than their peers, always be right. I've always find Jews write the best Jew jokes, but then you have a jones against Mel Brooks, for the love of Christ. I bet you don't like Philip Roth or Bernard Malamud either.

[Abcdxxxx]

Hey if being Jewish is all about Phillip Roth, and Mel Brooks to you who am I to burst that bubble. I don't know what sort of response, or interaction you're reaching for here.... but then again, that lovely joke sure did offer some insight as to how you were raised to percieve Jews.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Meh. Jews = just another group, IMO. I care about the ones in America, and I am disinterested in the ones that are not in the USA.

Just like I view every other ethnic group, including my own.

[Abcdxxxx]

I don't know, my empathy for mankind tends to extend beyond our comfortable borders....and when Jews are persecuted in far off places like Argentina or Cuba, where nobody even knows they exist, I take it personally.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I don't know, my empathy for mankind tends to extend beyond our comfortable borders....and when Jews are persecuted in far off places like Argentina or Cuba, where nobody even knows they exist, I take it personally.

Well, I can understand that.

I just don't think that way myself.

[Abcdxxxx]

I wouldn't expect you to...it's a dual nationalism thing...but most everyone has their own version of that I find. There must be some tribal bond you feel with someone in that same way. We all belong to little communities usually without knowing it.

[mburbank]

WHAT insights, Abgdzsmzdc? THAT's the question I'm asking you.
I think it would be... enlightening to hear what you insights are.

I think having to put it into actual words instead of just snide flippancy would be very revealing. What does that joke say about you to me.

But you'll probably just blow off a response, smart guy. Actually saying what you mean might be putting your neck out to far. Until you do it boils down to "I know you are but what am I?", a level of discourse right up your alley.

[Abcdxxxx]

Grow up.

[mburbank]

"But you'll pronbably just blow off a response."
-Me

"Grow up."
-Abchdhshs

[Abcdxxxx]

what would i be responding to?
work those issues out on your own.
or hell, just pass them down to your kids.

[mburbank]

Translation:

I'm not clear enough on what I think to even put it into a sentence, and I have a sneaking suspicion if I tried it would reveal I'm a complete prick.

[Abcdxxxx]

translation: you're the real punchline to the joke.... and nobody cares, really.

[mburbank]

But you can't describe the punchline, or you would have. And I care enough o pose the question, and you care enough to dodge it with dedication, because you don't want to give away anything about yourelf not directly connected with an area of xpertise where you believe you can lord it over everyone.

So that's two people who care, right there.

It's why you are a dick. Life becomes more pleaant when you're less of a dick. Tell you what, maybe if you try it, I'll try reading some of the stuff you insist everybody has to wade through before their worthy to question you about anything.

[Abcdxxxx]

Hey man, stay as ignorant as you want, but blaming an asshole on the internet for why you're too lazy to do some research makes you pathetic.

[mburbank]

So you're aware you're an asshole. It's not a cure, but it's a start.

[The One and Only...]

I'm a Qabalist.

[mburbank]

No, you're an idiot in an intellectual costume. Go away.

[Jeanette X]

I'm a Qabalist.

The Hell you are. I suppose that you bought one of those red string bracelets and now you think that you're some deep mystic. Stop co-opting our traditions.

[mburbank]

OMG, Kevin Locked My Thread!!!

And on the overly nasty rule too! If that rule was enforced, we'd never have had Vinth! THINK ABOUT THAT KEVIN!!

Okay, I'm officially moving my discussion of what a HUGE dick Abcdxxxx is to this thread, because it's somehwta on topic in that Abcdgdsfjsdf overlooks the central role of humor in Judaism, AND he thinks he's more sympatico with Jewocity than I am AND it's completely out of keeping with circumscision that he is such a HUGE dick.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

If you guys really want to attack each other on a personal/religious level, I'd prefer you take it to Mock Wars or General Blabber.

Vince was funny. This isn't funny. But if you must, and you can keep it to this thread, than ok. I don't care.

[Abcdxxxx]

No interest here. Burbank's pretty desperate to act out his father's joke in real life though. i-s-s-u-e-s.

[kahljorn]

"You have taken my oldest living Mocker Crown!!"

Not to bring this back to the first page but who's the oldest dead mocker?

[mburbank]

I don't know of any dead Mockers. You'll have to ask RoG.

Kevin, you are officially a poopyhead. Infinite power may corrupt infinitely, but teensy weensy bits of power corrupt surprsingly well. I find Abcddxxx pokeable. I must, as ever, follow my muse.

Abcddxxx, I got your issues right here. I think you are an arrogant, self important, egotistical prick. That, sir, is my i-s-s-u-e.

I assign you "Portnoy's Complaint". If you're read it within the last decade, I'll allow any opinion you may have, although if it disagrees with mine, it almost certainly means you missunderstood the book. If you have not read it, I am De Facto correct that you are a Dick, and "Bad For The Jews".

[The One and Only...]

What's wrong with me being a qabalist? It's the hermetic variety anyway, not the judaic.

[mburbank]

Oh, Oh, Oh, the HERMETIC version, Oh, see, now, I thought you were just dropping in to once more be a self involved bag of shit.

My mistake.

[kahljorn]

I've studied hermetics andqabalah, but didn't know there was a hermetic school of qabalism. You're probably talking about the hermetic orderof the golden dawn or some other occultist organization which incorporates it among other things. Have you read 777? What do you know about the QBL?

[mburbank]

OH GOOD LORD, DO YOU REALIZE WHAT YOU'VE DONE!? QUICK, TAKE A DEEP BREATH, HERE COMES A TIDAL WAVE OF CRAP!

[kahljorn]

lol :(

I regret nothing?

[Archduke Tips]

Oh, Oh, Oh, the HERMETIC version, Oh, see, now, I thought you were just dropping in to once more be a self involved bag of shit.

My mistake.

lol this thread is awesome now

[The One and Only...]

It's not really a hermetic "school" of qabalism, it's just that hermeticists adapted it to their purposes. There's also a Christian qaballah.

I haven't read Crowley - he's not really my type of ceremonialist. I work on a modified GD system.

[Archduke Tips]

Wow. You need to get out more.

[kahljorn]

What kind of modified GD?
do you read Austin Osman Spare?

You should read 777, it's just a table of correspondences comparing various religions/sciences with eachother, over the sephera. SO krshna or buddha or christ would all be the BEAUTIFUL sephera. It does the same for the pathways etc.
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/liber777.pdf

His books on yoga were also pretty good.

Well if you're a hermetic have you studied Hermes trismigestus? I think i remember sharing alink with you on the subject, the corpus hermeticum? what did you think?

[mburbank]

I don't generally like emoticons, but do we have one for despair?

[DuFresne]

Yes
:wah

[Sethomas]

Against what that guy with the theology degree said or whatever, The Septuagint was regarded as the truest representation of the Torah back in the day because the Jerusalem Hebrew Torah wasn't standardized until about 300 years after the Septuagint. Augustine commented that there was a certain idealogical appeal to reading the Torah in Hebrew, but he was an even bigger supporter of the Septuagint because of the amazing level of confluence among its eponymous 70 translators (Septuagint means "of the seventy", hence it being abbreviated LXX often). Plus, the removal of the deuterocanon in the Hebrew Scriptures was seen as a dick political move made in the late First Century to advocate the idea that nothing divine can come from outside of Israel.

[The One and Only...]

What kind of modified GD?

I can't undergo lodge ceremonies, so I work off of a system that replaces them with the gradual building of the Sephiroth in the aura. Basically, it's just using the Middle Pillar throughout the grades but changing the correspondences as appropriate.

do you read Austin Osman Spare?

No, though I'm familiar with chaos magic.

You should read 777, it's just a table of correspondences comparing various religions/sciences with eachother, over the sephera. SO krshna or buddha or christ would all be the BEAUTIFUL sephera. It does the same for the pathways etc.
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/liber777.pdf

Dion Fortune had some quibbles over the correspondences, and I tend to favor her more. The Mystical Qabalah was an excellent read, clarified quite a bit.

Well if you're a hermetic have you studied Hermes trismigestus? I think i remember sharing alink with you on the subject, the corpus hermeticum? what did you think?

I don't know if I'd call myself a hermeticist, but the rites I perform are of a hermetic origin. Eventually I'd like to read the Corpus Hermeticum, but I have too little time right now.

I have, however, read the Kybalion.

Actually, I'm considering opting out of the GD system for a time to pathwork the Tree of Life. It's just a more accessible approach at this point in my life, though I think I can manage either way I decide.

[kahljorn]

What's the differences between the Septuagint and modern translations, Sethomas? Besides the obvious, of course ;(

also another thread reminded me OAO aren't you an alchemist as well? What do you think of Theophrastus Philippus Aureolus Bombastus von Hohenheim? It seems like he'd be right up your alley with being a hermetic alchemist and all...

[The One and Only...]

I'm not a grand occultist who has studied in incredible depth. I'm only an alchemist in the sense that I seek to transmute myself from lead to gold, the essential goal of the outer order of GD.

Also note my edit.

[kahljorn]

I've read most of Dion Fortune i like her books. I don't see how you can avoid crowley though. At the very least make it your best to read the following two things. In this order:

http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib3.html
Read part one out of lib4
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/aba/aba1.html

Book Four

by Frater Perdurabo and Soror Virakam

PART I

MEDITATION
THE WAY OF ATTAINMENT OF GENIUS OR GODHEAD CONSIDERED AS A DEVELOPMENT OF THE HUMAN BRAIN Issued by order of
the GREAT WHITE
BROTHERHOOD
known as the A.'.A.'.

Witness our Seal,
N.'.'
Praemonstrator-General

They are pretty much about the same thingbut they are considered fundemental aspects of mysticism. Only the first one is in typical crowleyian language, but it should be easy to decipher. The second one is more of a scholarly account of mysticism. If you read that you will probably know more about mysticism and yoga than most people who do yoga the exercise. You'll find out in the second read when it talks about asana which is only step 4 out of 8 to become a yogi.

I don't know I feel like we should have an entirely seperate thread I didn't really mean to shit on max's parade or anything i like parades.

[Preechr]

It's funny because you're shitting on a parade with a parade of shit.

[kahljorn]

You're just figuring out my pattern of shitting on shit parades with parades of shit?
I thought it was obvious.

[Sethomas]

Actually, Kahl, I said recently in another thread that the LXX is the edition used for OT citations in the New Testament. The New Testament was written in various qualities of Koine Greek, but they always cited the Hellenistic Greek of the LXX. This is significant because it's the crux of the argument over whether or not Christians should regard the deuterocanonical books (also derisively called The Apocrypha, which can refer to a larger corpus of works as well) as part of the Bible, put them in a separate place in the Bible for "historical reference", or omit them entirely.

At the Council of Jerusalem, as I think it was called, in like the AD 90s or so the Israeli Jews decided that those books whose authorship was in Greek rather than Hebrew should be excluded from their canon. As I said, this was mostly for poltical and social reasons--they wanted to denegrate the Jews living in Alexandria as being inferior to those in Palestine. The odd thing is, though, that most of the books in question do have contemporaneous Hebrew translations and especially Maccabees I & II speak intimately of Jewish history within the Holy Land.

At any rate, Martin Luther didn't hesitate to throw them out because of their interference with his views, and virtually all Protestants followed suit.

[Abcdxxxx]

Seth, I'm not entirely sure what you're referencing, as my knowledge of the Torah is pretty much limited to it's history from Judaic perspective. I can tell you that the Torah was handed down and copied by hand, and once it became standardized there was no deviation allowed. It's still copied with brush and ink to this day. That tradition continued even once Jews became a Diaspora - so it wasn't a case of Nationalism so much as a belief . No more books could be added. While some sects had adopted various addendums of varied authenticity, they were denominational/regional. The Jews of Yemen are a good example, with some unique beliefs, and unique texts, but they're a rare case of a segregated tribe who have continued their own traditions by again, copying them to the letter. There are many instances of Jews living under certain rulership where they adopted some variations in the Torah, but that's not the same as a group like the Yemenite Jews that were true to themselves. Plus Aramaic/Hebrew to Greek is a sloppy process from what I understand.

[Sethomas]

How many Hebrew speakers were literate before Ptolemy, though?

[Abcdxxxx]

No idea what Jewish literacy was like at the time, but I do know that there's a difference between the Oral traditions of the Talmud/Midrash, and the Torah itself, which was read to congregants by the Kohen Gadol. So even if literacy was a Rabbinical priviledge, the Torah was still kept through a literary tradition. By the time the Torah was translated to Greek it was seen as an offense akin to the Golden Calf, because it was believed a translation was impossible. I believe the Torah as one compiled book is credited to Ezra the Scribe around 400 BCE -348 BCE.

[Sethomas]

Dude, as far as I know there are no surviving texts of any part of the Hebrew Scriptures dating earlier than around 1000 AD. Obviously they did exist, but it does stick out that the Dead Sea Scrolls tend to agree more with the verbiage of the LXX than of the later accepted Hebrew texts. Regardless of what was believed at the time of its authorship, even Josephus exhalted the LXX as being divinely inspired in its own right. There's no way you can compare the validity between the oral tradition and the LXX because although we have Greek fragments dating to the Persian Empire, I think the oldest Hebrew representations are medieval. So, the idea that the current accepted texts in Hebrew are any more similar to what the Jews studied orally than a translation into Greek is pretty worthless from a historical criticism POV.

I did mean Tanakh or whatever it's called, and not Torah. Rip me a new one for that.

[Abcdxxxx]

Eh, I think ultimately it comes down to a difference in beliefs. There are Jews like the Karanites, who are growing in numbers, that reject the oral tradition entirely...then at the same time you have sects such as the Lubavitchers who are far more fluid in their defintion of these scriptures. The oral tradition is a constant source of debate, even conflict amongst Jews ,so these particular beliefs don't just vary from temple to temple, but from household to household. Nothing you can turn up through an archealogical dig will persuade them otherwise - it's a matter of tradition. Hebrew (especially ancient hebrew) just doesn't translate so well. So to Jews there is nothing purer then a Torah copied from one to another and passed on over Centuries. You're not just talking about a translation, but a translation that deviates from that which mainstream Jews believe...so of course we dispute that. The Talmud is a lot more muddy in that it accepts counterviews, the wisdom of converts, moralist fables, and laws which may or may not have been accepted over time. Anyway, long story short, if you've ever read an English translation of any of this stuff it's pretty obviouse how drastically different it is from the Christian versions... so again, it just comes down to belief. I can't point to specific examples, because of my own linguistic limitations - but if portions of that early Greek translation have no basis in historical Judaism, and these earliest examples weren't recognized by Jews - then there's little else to say. The Greek examples probably originated from the Babylonian text - but rather then take this translation, Jews believed, and still believe they're working off the original lineage of the Ezra scribed works.

[Sethomas]

The LXX was initiated in Alexandria around 250 BC. I don't know where you got the whole Babylonian Greek thing, but whatever. Enlighten me. I mentioned the Dead Sea Scrolls because they're pre-Christian Hebrew that represent the oral tradition. I've heard-tell that they were slanted by some Jewish sect's motives (the Ascenes maybe?), but the fact that they do align very well with the LXX of some 200 or so years earlier does make it an apples-to-apples comparison.

[Abcdxxxx]

Simply put, Jews reject the Septuagint, rarely consider the Apocrypha. Obviously, you would have to apply the Christian notion of religion and religious text to Judaism for it to be relevant. Hellenistic Jews translated the works from the Babylonians, so that Jews could still worship even after losing their Hebraic tradition at the hands of persecution. Jews started to rethink the usage of translated works once Christians started to use them as primary versions, above what was believed to be the more pure Hebrew sources. The "Passover scroll" of the Elephantine papyri, which contains detailed instructions on how to celebrate the Pesakh holiday in accordance with the Torah, is dated around 400 BCE, and it is by no means the earliest such source. The oldest Sh'ma prayer exists on copper plates from the 9th Century BCE. The oldest physical Torah fragments are from around the 3rd or 4th Century BCE. They were transcribed from Hebrew to Aramaic since the goal was to be understood.

[Archduke Tips]

No, though I'm familiar with chaos magic.


Haha what the fuck, is this a big joke?

Level 7 dark wizard chaos magic will rule us all.

[The One and Only...]

Chaos magic is just paradigm shifting. Spare talked on it.

[kahljorn]

chaos magic could probably be described as Jungian magic.

[mburbank]

Q: "How many Hebrew speakers were literate before Ptolemy, though?"

A: "6"


And One and Only, you are such an idiot it beggars the immagination. Mister Philosiphy professor is now into "Magik"! Let me guess, you got yourself a copy of "promethea", acquired a woody over it and being the IMMENSE DORKOGANZA you are, you HAD to go all apeshit over it becaue obviosuly anything you liked MUST be all serious and TRUTHY so now you're pouring through the occult shelf at your local used book store and thinking you're a MAGUS instead of a big thighed weiner. Can't all your posts be confined to a single thread, or maybe even a forum all your own titled "Where the One and Only Masturbates While Gazing in a Mirror"?

[The One and Only...]

I don't make a big deal out of it. Usually, the people who do are half-deluded anyway.

I don't think of myself as a "MAGUS." In fact, I kind of hate the term magic - especially magick. If anything, I think of myself as a mystic or alchemist.

Been considering joining the masons one day though.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Been considering joining the masons one day though.

A close friend of mine was the national president of what is essentially their college republicans. I'll put in a good word, daffy!

[mburbank]

Oh, and Alchemist. Good, good, I was all worried you might be something absurd and humiliating, like a seeker or a doofus, or maybe a tool with chunky thighs.

Is this what you concider yourself this week, Johnny Change-o-matic, a Mystik? Come on, it was too much Alan Moore and Niquil, wasn't it? You can tell us.

[Archduke Tips]

I like this thread because there are multiple conversations going on, and I am like the chorus that chimes in occasionally to comment on the action.

[kahljorn]

there's a masonic lodge right down the street from here but I really don't see why you'd want to be a mason it's just a social club.

"The primitive intellect reasoned very close to probability when it equated the fertility of the earth with the fertility of the female body, or when it regarded the rain-bearing cloud as a being capable of perception. Primitive man animated nature according to his own sensations and functions; he animated them, but he did not mysticize them, as did his successor several hundred years later. "Mysticism" here means, in the literal sense, a change of sensory impressions and organ sensations into something unreal and beyond this world. Anthropology teaches us that the devil with tail and pitchfork, or the angel with wings, is a late product of human imagination, not patterned on reality but originating from a distorted concept of reality. Both "devil" and "angel" correspond to human structural sensations that deviate basically from those of animals or primitive men."

[DuFresne]

I've got a friend whose dad is a Mason, and my friend will be one too as soon as he turns 18. I read the philosophy of the Masons at their website, and it's pretty attractive to me to be honest. I'd have to think hard before I do it, but I might ask my friend to helo me get in.

[kahljorn]

you can just go to any masonic lodge and ask for an application, maybe ask them for a tour because you're interested in them. The secret is to be confident but not full of yourself, they like that kind of stuff. You have to be a "Man". Sociable and honest.
the application has a picture of our past masonic presidents. Are you ready to join them?

[Archduke Tips]

Just another way to pay dues so you can have "friends."

[mburbank]

Can I be the first one to mention the Bavarian Illuminati? What do you think of the Bavarian Illuminati, OAO? Is that what you really secretly are, a Bavarian Illuminati? That would be SO AWESOME! Like you're all "Oh, I'm a big philosipher about terms I bet you never evebn heard of! No wait, now I'm a tenth level Mystic Hermetic Quablaistic Alchemist!" and like, while we're all thrown off guard and going "WOAH! OAO! I did NOT see THAT coming!" actually, secretly, the whoe time? You're like this big Bavarian Illuminati! OH! WAIT! Not a Bavarian Illuminati, what's that other thing?

A douchebag. Yeah, that's it.

A douchebag.

[kahljorn]

and yes russo's right you do have to pay dues. Mine was a 175 dollar annual fee if iremember right and you have to pay more whenever you change grades.
That's really not that much money, though.

[The One and Only...]

You were a mason?

From what I've gathered, the purpose of the masons is to increase communion with the divine using the symbols of the craftsman. Perhaps I am mistaken, gathering from your experience?

[kahljorn]

Masonry is a social club designed to instill good character.

or they are people who build buildings ;(

have you guys read any masonic literature?

[Abcdxxxx]

I have. it's very captain crunch kinda stuff. (I'm talking a lot about breakfast cerials today for some reason)

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

oi vei, my mother lays such guilt trips I SWEAR she is secretly Jewish. She tears through self esteem like a wolf through a passover dinner.

[kahljorn]

Which masonic literature have you guys read? There's alot of different types of literature(since masons are involved in many fields) most people think about their mythology/mysticism the most. Really though their mythology and mysticism is nothing but repitition of old mythology and mysticism, but I suppose that's good for people who don't know anything about old mysticism...

what do you guys think of Pythagoras?

[Abcdxxxx]

I read a Mason's handbook of some sort. Small, old and leathern bound. It was goofy. Should have came with a 8 sided dice. (I also got to fondle a Mason's sword). It seemed like pretty harmless stuff. I just glanced though. Can't exactly discuss it beyond these surface impressions.

[kahljorn]

ritual is goofy and ridiculous but some of the approaches to the psychology of it make it seem like it could have an actual effect. personally i don't do it or pray but i do prana/breathing exercises which is basically meditation and sometimes do yoga but there's plausible physiological reasons for doing those.

anyway pretty much all the works ive discussed in this thread touch on masonic topics and masonic symbolism so I would reccomend reading it if you're interested in that type of stuff.

[Sethomas]

I think that he had nothing to do with Masonry, which was produced virtually ex nihilo in the 18th Century. I thought it was delightful when The History Channel didn't even entertain the thought of any ancient lineage for them in one of their many, many Da Vinci Code specials. Not that they hold a monopoly on historical truth, but given their tendency to play with any alternative theories it was refreshing.

If people want to pay for friends, sure, go for it. No different than college fraternities, I guess. I just think it's distressing to see grown men banter about Solomon's Temple and the Knights Templar in a context that can draw absolutely nothing from the two with any verisimilitude. One thing that does strike me as ironic, though, is that the Masons were founded to fill the void of hocus-pocus mysticism left by their Protestant rejection of Catholic sacraments. Ah well.

[kahljorn]

you think that who had nothing to do with masonry?? 18th century? Davinci code? I wasn't talking about the da vinci code, i was talking about real masons and the topics they base their writings on. I've never even read the da vinci code to be honest, nor his other stupid ass book.
were you talking about paracelsus? I don't know if he was a mason, but i know alot of the masonic books I've read talk about him in fair detail as they do most alchemical topics. Same with pythagoras if you meant him...

[Abcdxxxx]

OMG they're talking about Masons in a thread about Jews....Geggy just wet himself!

[DuFresne]

:lol

[kahljorn]

:lol yes i laughed at that too :(

[kahljorn]

I guess you guys didn't know freemasons existed outside of the Davinci code?

[Archduke Tips]

All I know is that the freemasons and the illuminati are secretly creating the davinca code.

[Sethomas]

I was saying that Pythagoras wasn't a Mason because he was born about 2500 years too soon.

[kahljorn]

OH OKAY THEN. I never did say he was a mason. It's cute when you jump on historical inaccuracies.

Secondly the grand lodge of england was founded at the begining of the 18th century which means they probably existed before that but that's just common sense not really "history".. Most Freemasons might tell you that freemasonry evolved out of old mason guilds and stuff lke that and there's probably plenty of evidence supportng that. Before the 18th century I'm pretty sure the scottish masonry guilds were already founded. Also there's been plenty of other masony guilds throughout time.
I was just bringing him up because they base alot of their mysticism and philosophy on him. I'm pretty sure pythagoras was one who said that man harmonizes with his surroundings, so if there's ugly things around man will be ugly and disharmonius. I could be wrong though, but imagine that in implications of "Masonry" and you could see some relative importance they might place on his philosophies.
There's also more crucial symbolism like his usage of a numbers which corresponds with most other number symbols, and alot of other things.

[mburbank]

Illuminati bastards.

[kahljorn]

the only book I've ever read about the illuminati was the illuminatus trilogy by robert anton wilson, and as max knows, that book is fucking awesome :( The only thing that makes me mad about it is I can't read it without being stoned because every other second in that book they are getting stoned and going on some adventure.
I've never read any other books about the illuminati but the illuminatus trilogy is the best. He writes sort of like kurt vonneguht, but better really. I reccomend everybody read it if possible.