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KevinTheOmnivore
Sep 19th, 2006, 11:02 PM
http://www.alternet.org/story/41601

Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
By Matthew Rothschild, The Progressive

Posted on September 18, 2006, Printed on September 19, 2006
http://www.alternet.org/story/41601/

At almost every progressive gathering where there's a question and answer session, someone or other vehemently raises 9/11 and espouses a grand conspiracy theory. If you haven't had the pleasure of enduring these rants, please let me share.

Here's what the conspiracists believe:

9/11 was an inside job.
Members of the Bush Administration ordered it, not Osama bin Laden.
Arab hijackers may not have done the deed.
On top of that, the Twin Towers fell not because of the impact of the airplanes and the ensuing fires but because the Bush Administration got agents to plant explosives at the base of those buildings.
Building 7, another high-rise at the World Trade Center that fell on 9/11, also came down by planted explosives.
The Pentagon was not hit by American Airlines Flight 77 but by a smaller plane or a missile.
And the Pennsylvania plane did not crash as a result of the revolt by the passengers but was brought down by the military.

I'm amazed at how many people give credence to these theories. Everyone's an engineer. People who never even took one college science course can now hold forth at great length on how the buildings at the World Trade Center could not possibly have collapsed in the way they did and why the Pentagon could not have been struck by that American Airlines jet.

Problem is, some of the best engineers in the country have studied these questions and come up with perfectly logical, scientific explanations for what happened.

The American Society of Civil Engineers and FEMA conducted an in-depth investigation of the World Trade Center. The team members included the director of the Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers, the senior fire investigator for the National Fire Protection Association, professors of fire safety, and leaders of some of the top building design and engineering firms, including Skidmore Owings & Merrill in Chicago, Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire in Seattle, and Greenhorne & O'Mara in Maryland.

It concluded that massive structural damage caused by the crashing of the aircrafts into the buildings, combined with the subsequent fires, "were sufficient to induce the collapse of both structures."

The National Institute of Standards and Technology did its own forty-three volume study of the Twin Towers. "Some 200 technical experts . . . reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, [and] performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations," the institute says.

It also concluded that a combination of the crash and the subsequent fires brought the towers down: "In each tower, a different combination of impact damage and heat-weakened structural components contributed to the abrupt structural collapse."

Popular Mechanics, first in its March 2005 cover story and now in its expanded book, Debunking 9/11 Myths, after interviewing scores of other experts in the engineering field, takes apart the most popular contentions of the conspiracists. "In every case we examined, the key claims made by conspiracy theorists turned out to be mistaken, misinterpreted, or deliberately falsified," the book says.

I made a few calls myself, including to Gene Corley, who conducted the American Society of Civil Engineers/FEMA study, and to Mete Sozen, structural engineering professor at Purdue, who was one of the principal authors of "The Pentagon Building Performance Report" of January 2003, which was done under the auspices of the American Society of Civil Engineers and the Structural Engineering Institute. I also contacted engineering professors at MIT and other leading universities in the country, and none of them puts any stock in the 9/11 conspiracy theories. In fact, they view them as a huge waste of time. They are busy trying to figure out how to prevent buildings from falling in the future.

Of course, any conspiracy theorist worth his or her salt will claim that all these people are in on the plot. And that I am in on it, too.

Get over it.

The guru of the 9/11 conspiracy movement is David Ray Griffin, an emeritus professor not of engineering but of philosophy and theology at the Claremont School of Theology. First in The New Pearl Harbor and then in The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions and now in Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11, Griffin has peddled his conspiracy theory.

He's not alone, of course. A myriad of websites devote themselves to this subject, and several films are circulating on it, including Loose Change. There's even a group called Scholars for 9/11 Truth, which insists "the World Trade Center was almost certainly brought down by controlled demolitions." Most prominent among these is Steven E. Jones, professor of physics and astronomy at Brigham Young University, whose primary field is not engineering but cold fusion, according to Debunking 9/11 Myths.

The conspiracy theories are particularly popular on the left for a couple of understandable reasons. It's undeniable that Bush has ceaselessly seized on 9/11 to justify his warmaking abroad and his repressive policies at home. And then there's the notorious phrase in a document of the Project for the New American Century, the fount of neoconservativism, whose members included Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, and a host of other hawks who flew into the Bush Administration. That line, from the September 2000 study "Rebuilding America's Defenses," argues for transforming the U.S. military posture into a much more aggressive one, and for expanding the Pentagon's budget to reach $500 billion a year. The authors recognized that this transformation would be difficult to achieve quickly "absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event--like a new Pearl Harbor."

Griffin and other leftwing conspiracy theorists put the two together, and voila. The attacks "were orchestrated in order to pave the way for launching unprovoked wars on two countries that provided no threat, whether imminent or long-term, to the people of the United States," he writes in Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11. "The Administration and its Pentagon even planned to use 9/11 as a pretext . . . to attack still more countries. The U.S. government was planning, therefore, to use the deaths of some 3,000 people (whom itself had killed) to justify wars that would most likely kill and maim many hundreds of thousands of people, perhaps millions."

Before taking some of the major conspiracy claims one by one, let's examine how outlandish the conspiracy theory is on its face.

First, Osama bin Laden has already claimed responsibility for the attack several times and boasted of the prowess of the suicide bombers who hijacked those planes. Why not take him at his word? And if bin Laden were working in cahoots with the Bush Administration, why was the President warned on August 6, 2001, in a Presidential daily briefing that Osama bin Laden was about to attack the United States? Wouldn't that risk exposing the conspiracy?

Second, if the Bush Administration plotters carried out 9/11 to justify attacking Iraq, why didn't they have Iraqi hijackers do the deed? In actuality, there was not a single Iraqi hijacker, and Bush propagandists had to do all sorts of gymnastics to link Iraq to the actual attackers.

Third, for this conspiracy to have succeeded, it would have had to have been amazingly vast: not only the high level members of the Bush Administration (including the head of the Secret Service, Griffin says in Christian Faith) and the explosives teams, but also many others.

Griffin, in Pearl Harbor, for instance, alleges that Mayor Rudolph Giuliani may have been involved. Griffin quotes Giuliani telling ABC News, "We were operating out of there [Building 7] when we were told that the World Trade Center was gonna collapse." Griffin says Giuliani had no obvious way of knowing that, and concludes: "Giuliani's statement provides, therefore, evidence someone, perhaps he himself, knew something that the firemen in the buildings did not know--which was perhaps that explosives had been placed in the buildings and were about to be set off." Is that really evidence? Isn't it much more likely that the firefighters told the mayor to leave because the fire itself was jeopardizing the building?

Griffin also alleges that Larry Silverstein, who leased the World Trade Center complex, was in on the deal so he could collect the insurance. (This claim--which he might as well have called "The Jew Cashed In"--dovetails with the anti-Semitic conspiracy theory popular in the Middle East that the Mossad blew up the towers and warned the thousands of Jews who would have been working there to stay home.)

In Pearl Harbor, Griffin quotes Silverstein in a 2002 PBS documentary recalling a conversation from the fire department commander on September 11 "telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse." Griffin, who writes that Silverstein "made almost $500 million in profit from the collapse of Building 7," says by "pull it" Silverstein was recommending that the building be demolished by explosives. Silverstein has flat-out denied that. By "pulling it," he has said that he meant giving up on the firefighters' efforts to save the building.

Two books later, Griffin removes any ambiguity Silverstein's "assertion that Building 7 was brought down by explosives, whatever the motive behind it, explains why and how it collapsed," Griffin writes in Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11. But Silverstein never made such an assertion, and for Griffin to claim he did is, to say the least, a distortion.

The problems with a vast conspiracy theory are obvious. There's the likelihood that someone along the chain would squeal. Members of the government have been engaged in far less treasonous plots (such as Bush's designs on Iran), and whistleblowers have managed to get the information out to the likes of Seymour Hersh over at The New Yorker. And, on top of that, we're supposed to believe that this incompetent Administration, which brought you Katrina, was somehow able to execute this grand conspiracy?

"The government is not sufficiently competent to pull off such conspiracies and too leaky to keep them secret," said Richard Clarke, the one-time counterterrorism czar for Clinton and Bush, in a blurb for Debunking 9/11 Myths. Clarke has been a harsh critic of Bush, and he was a strong supporter of John Kerry. Don't you think Clarke would have blown the whistle had he known? And who was in a better position than he to know?

Finally, in Pearl Harbor, Griffin acknowledges one enormous, unfillable hole in the conspiracists' theory: If Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon, where did it go? And where did all sixty-four people on board go? Griffin pathetically answers: "One cannot expect that the revisionists, being independent researchers with limited budgets and no power to subpoena testimony, could answer all the questions raised by their alternative scenario." But that doesn't stop him from speculating, in a ghoulish way, about one piece of evidence that contradicts his Flight 77 notion: the phone calls from conservative Barbara Olson, who was on Flight 77, to her husband, Ted Olson, Bush's solicitor general. Griffin casts doubt on whether the phone calls actually happened, noting that Olson "is very close to the Bush Administration." At least in Pearl Harbor, Griffin recognizes the weakness of this argument. The conspiracy theorists "still need to explain, of course, what became of Barbara Olson, and also whether it is plausible that Ted Olson would have participated in a plan with that outcome," he writes. In his latest book, though, Griffin does not appear bothered in the least, as he continues to cast doubt on Ted Olson's account. He has swept Barbara Olson and sixty-three other people under the rug.

On to some of Griffin's most oft-cited questions.

Why did dust clouds shoot out of the Twin Towers as they fell?

Or, as Griffin poses it in Pearl Harbor: "What other than explosives could turn concrete into powder and then eject it horizontally 150 feet or more?"

Corley, who headed up the investigation for the American Society of Civil Engineers and FEMA, gives a quick response to that. "That is simply the air pressure being pushed down," he says. "Once the collapse started, then you had roughly a twenty-story building and roughly a thirty-story building acting as a very large mass to push everything down. The air pressure gets quite something, and the windows on the lower floors break, and you see puffs of smoke coming out of them." Debunking 9/11 Myths offers the same explanation and cites structural engineer Jon Magnusson, who says this expulsion of air and debris is fairly common when buildings collapse.

Why did the tower that was hit second fall first?

"All other things being equal, then, the tower that was struck first should have collapsed first. And yet, although the South Tower was struck seventeen minutes later than the North Tower, it collapsed twenty-nine minutes earlier," writes Griffin in Pearl Harbor. The fact that the South Tower fell first, he concludes, "suggests that the collapse of these buildings was caused by something other than the fires."

But all things weren't equal. "The damage done to the second building was more serious than the damage done to the first," says Corley.

The National Institute of Standards and Technology concurs. Its "Final Report on the Collapse of the World Trade Center Towers" notes that ten core columns were severed in the South Tower, whereas only six were severed in the North. And 20,000 more square feet of insulation was stripped from the trusses in the South Tower than the North. The report "found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to September 11, 2001."

What about Building 7?

This is a favorite of the conspiracy theorists, since the planes did not strike this structure. But the building did sustain damage from the debris of the Twin Towers. "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom--approximately ten stories--about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out," Shyam Sunder, the lead investigator for the National Institute of Standards and Technology, told Popular Mechanics.

What's more, the fire in the building lasted for about eight hours, in part because there were fuel tanks in the basement and on some of the floors. "The building was designed for a fire duration of no more than about three hours," says Corley. "Eight hours was way more than what that building was designed for." (Corley, by the way, also headed up the investigation of the Murrah Building's collapse in Oklahoma City.)

The National Institute of Standards and Technology is still studying the collapse of Building 7, but its initial report says: "NIST has seen no evidence that the collapse of WTC 7 was caused by bombs, missiles, or controlled demolition."

What about the Pentagon?

Conspiracy theorists will bend your ear explaining that the American Airlines Boeing 757 couldn't possibly have made such a small hole in the Pentagon. Griffin in Pearl Harbor: "The orifice created by the impact . . . was at most eighteen feet in diameter. Is it not absurd to suggest that a Boeing 757 created and then disappeared into such a small hole? . . . Can anyone seriously believe that a 125-foot-wide airplane created and then went inside a hole less than twenty-feet wide?"

First of all, the hole was actually ninety feet wide, according to the "Pentagon Building Performance Report" of January 2003, which the American Society of Civil Engineers and the Structural Engineering Institute put out. And Professor Sozen of Purdue, one of the authors of that report, has an explanation.

"The reinforced columns of the Pentagon destroyed the wings," says Sozen. "That's why the hole is smaller. It had to be smaller." Since working on that report, Sozen has designed simulations at Purdue, and his results correspond with what happened to Flight 77, he says. Sozen, who identifies himself as a progressive, says it is "ridiculous to deny" that the American Airlines plane hit the Pentagon. And, he adds, if Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon, where did it go and "what happened to the people in that plane"?

But we know what happened to them. They died at the Pentagon. "All but five of the 189 people who died on the aircraft and in the Pentagon were later identified through DNA testing," according to Debunking 9/11 Myths.

Finally, was Flight 93 shot down?

Griffin and many other conspiracists allege that Flight 93, which crashed in Pennsylvania, was brought down not by the passengers struggling with the hijackers but by a U.S. missile. But we know from cell phone conversations that passengers on board that plane planned on confronting the hijackers. And, as Debunking 9/11 Myths notes, "a Cleveland air traffic controller assigned to Flight 93 heard signs of a struggle in the cockpit, followed shortly by screaming."

Tapes of the conversations at the northeast regional headquarters for the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) confirm this, as Michael Bronner has shown in his August article for Vanity Fair entitled "9/11 Live: The NORAD Tapes." Major Kevin Nasypany was the facility's mission-crew commander that day, and the tapes show him frantically trying to figure what was going on and whether he had orders to shoot Flight 93 down.

"Gimme the call sign," he says at 10:07. "Gimme the whole nine yards. . . . Let's get some info, real quick. They got a bomb?"

But, as Bronner reports, by then "everyone on board is already dead. Following the passengers' counterattack, the plane crashed in a field in Pennsylvania at 10:03 a.m."

The man who headed up the crash site investigation there was Matthew McCormick, a thirty-three-year veteran at the National Transportation Safety Board. "From my investigation there was no pre-impact stress to the airplane," he told the Debunking authors.

To be sure, there are discrepancies and omissions in The 9/11 Commission Report, and the Pentagon and FAA appear to have not been fully truthful and forthcoming about what happened that day. Not every riddle that Griffin and other conspiracists pose has a ready answer. But almost all of their major assertions are baseless. And their own theories have such gigantic holes and require such monumental leaps of logic that they discredit themselves.

At bottom, the 9/11 conspiracy theories are profoundly irrational and unscientific. It is more than passing strange that progressives, who so revere science on such issues as tobacco, stem cells, evolution, and global warming, are so willing to abandon science and give in to fantasy on the subject of 9/11.

The 9/11 conspiracy theories are a cul-de-sac. They lead nowhere. And they aren't necessary to prove the venality of the Bush Administration. There's plenty of that proof lying around. We don't need to make it up.

Matthew Rothschild is the editor of The Progressive.

© 2006 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/41601/

kahljorn
Sep 19th, 2006, 11:22 PM
i had that conversation with geggy the other day. I'm glad my estimations were aproximate.

Geggy
Sep 20th, 2006, 09:23 AM
Nice try, kevin ;) thanks for proving my point that 9/11 is a nonparistan issue.

By the way loose change is for the kids. Have you seen 9/11 Press for Truth? It's not a conspiracy theory documentry. It's something more fitting for your tatse. It's availble to download for free at video.google.

KevinTheOmnivore
Sep 20th, 2006, 09:35 AM
Damn! I can't slip these things by you, Geggy.

;) ;)

WhiteRat
Sep 20th, 2006, 09:49 AM
But you don't understand! Bush is an oil man! An OIL MAN!





oil

El Blanco
Sep 20th, 2006, 10:12 AM
Again, Geggy, you didn't read it. Typical.

You'd do the Denier Movement a greater service by shutting up.

Geggy
Sep 20th, 2006, 10:18 AM
The article pointed out all the issues that was in the loose change documentry. Never never seen anyone in the media ever talk about other apsects of 9/11 beside "controlled demolition", "what hit the pentagon", "flight 93 shotdown". It's alway the same shit.

KevinTheOmnivore
Sep 20th, 2006, 11:03 AM
never seen anyone in the media ever talk about other apsects of 9/11 beside "controlled demolition", "what hit the pentagon", "flight 93 shotdown". It's alway the same shit.

So you must be beyond all of these things, right? You don't support controlled demolition, or hold crazy theories about what hit the Pentagon, right?

You wouldn't, for example, deny that real, innocent people died in that plane, would you?

Geggy
Sep 20th, 2006, 12:29 PM
Wait a minute now. Are you pulling a Spiegel on me now? Of course I'm not denying the death of the innocents. Regardless of whoever did 9/11, it is still a terror attack. Where did you ever come up with the idea that I'm denying the death of the innocents?

The "what the pentagon" hit issue is irrevelant due to lack of any real, solid evidence and only 20 percent of the movement focus on it, whereas 50 percent believe a plane hit the pentagon. The media is only trying to make it seem like it is the movement's central core issue of all. They're baiting the movement by showing the public the 5 frame clip of the pentagon hit that doesn't show anything to make it for us to turn into a larger issue. It only discredits the movement as group of lunacies while they avoid other more damaging issues that shows the us govt was involved.

I find controlled demolition issue very compelling and investigations on that idea should be strongly pursued but I don't think it should be the central core issue that's so often covered by the media. They only focus on the superficial aspect of 9/11.

It was not what went down on 9/11, but the mean, motives, opportunity and the length the bush admin had gone to cover it up that convinced me it was an inside jobby. Who seem to have gain the most from the attacks? The bush administration. If it wasn't for the attacks, where would they be now? What would they have as an invocation to further their agenda?

Why hasn't one single mainstream media outlet give any attention to the high level government insider who have expressed disbelief over the commission report? I mean, why not?

KevinTheOmnivore
Sep 20th, 2006, 12:43 PM
Where did you ever come up with the idea that I'm denying the death of the innocents?

oh, I dunno, because you've actually questioned where the bodies were after the Pentagon attack? Remember when I had to prove to you that a majority of the bodies had been identified (as this article repeats)? That strikes me as a blatant disregardfor the innocent lives lost.....pretending they weren't there.


They're baiting the movement by showing the public the 5 frame clip of the pentagon hit that doesn't show anything to make it for us to turn into a larger issue. It only discredits the movement as group of lunacies while they avoid other more damaging issues that shows the us govt was involved.

Right.


Who seem to have gain the most from the attacks? The bush administration. If it wasn't for the attacks, where would they be now? What would they have as an invocation to further their agenda?

You'll have to explain these achievements to me one more time. I see a president with a tarnished legacy, an unpopular war, and a Congress in jeopardy. What has he gained?

Why hasn't one single mainstream media outlet give any attention to the high level government insider who have expressed disbelief over the commission report? I mean, why not?

Why don't you give me their name, and then I'll answer your question.

Grislygus
Sep 20th, 2006, 04:43 PM
Allright, I picked a fight with kahljorn over the subject and was completely wiped out, so I don't have the credibility to back up objections, but still, this caught my eye.


It was not what went down on 9/11, but the mean, motives, opportunity and the length the bush admin had gone to cover it up that convinced me it was an inside jobby. Who seem to have gain the most from the attacks? The bush administration. If it wasn't for the attacks, where would they be now? What would they have as an invocation to further their agenda?

...if the Bush Administration plotters carried out 9/11 to justify attacking Iraq, why didn't they have Iraqi hijackers do the deed? In actuality, there was not a single Iraqi hijacker, and Bush propagandists had to do all sorts of gymnastics to link Iraq to the actual attackers.

That's a very, very good point.

kahljorn
Sep 20th, 2006, 05:49 PM
One thing I want to know is where's the 911 conspiraicists debunking of that engineer report? That thing seems fairly accurate to me considering it likely has scientific evidence backing it. Usually uncredible science is debunked by credible scientists.

Also the bush administration has already admitted to going to war for the wrong reasons, haven't they? So while there might not necessarily be a conspiracy theory they still started a war for the wrong reasons which were probably lies in the first place which is bad for presidents to do.

Zhukov
Sep 20th, 2006, 10:15 PM
I thought this might have been a debunking of the conspiracy theorists from a left perspective. You know, like, 'stop wasting time on this you are an embarrassment' sort of thing.

KevinTheOmnivore
Sep 20th, 2006, 10:18 PM
And what did you discover the article to really say?

Zhukov
Sep 20th, 2006, 10:21 PM
lots of things. More dirt on the fire.

KevinTheOmnivore
Sep 20th, 2006, 10:37 PM
Ok.

Ant10708
Sep 20th, 2006, 11:23 PM
The article pointed out all the issues that was in the loose change documentry. Never never seen anyone in the media ever talk about other apsects of 9/11 beside "controlled demolition", "what hit the pentagon", "flight 93 shotdown". It's alway the same shit. I remember you complained when they didn't talk about it at all and were happy when they mentioned the above.

kahljorn
Sep 21st, 2006, 12:18 AM
Ant there's something you have to understand people's perceptions change as their culture and society change so what's relevant today might not be relevant tomorrow depending on if that culture has dictated it's important or not. Now if we were to investigate the culture's actual reason for changing well now that might be interesting! (not really though we both already know why)

"Never never seen anyone in the media ever talk about other apsects of 9/11 beside "controlled demolition", "what hit the pentagon", "flight 93 shotdown". It's alway the same shit."

The media never talks about aspects of anything besides what they think people want to hear :( That's why intelligent people rely on other means. Not to say it's not bad entirely but look how much information often slips by without people noticing.

Geggy
Sep 21st, 2006, 06:36 PM
You'll have to explain these achievements to me one more time. I see a president with a tarnished legacy, an unpopular war, and a Congress in jeopardy. What has he gained?

Bush is mere puppet although he did get his wish to invade iraq and help his oil buddies make enormous profit from the war. It gave PNAC an opportunity to implement control of the middle east and build and expand military bases to form an one world government they had been planning at least since 1992 although I'm 100 percent certain they will fail. Military industrial complex such as KBR and it's subsidiary such as halliburton has been make billions off the war. Paul wolfowitz's world banking agenda. Need I go on?

I want to mention that I believe high ranking members of the military industrial complex may have been involved with providing weapons and resources to pull off the attacks.
Why don't you give me their name, and then I'll answer your question.

CIA analyst ray mcgovern and democrat robert bowman who served for president carter

Geggy
Sep 21st, 2006, 06:41 PM
Allright, I picked a fight with kahljorn over the subject and was completely wiped out, so I don't have the credibility to back up objections, but still, this caught my eye.


It was not what went down on 9/11, but the mean, motives, opportunity and the length the bush admin had gone to cover it up that convinced me it was an inside jobby. Who seem to have gain the most from the attacks? The bush administration. If it wasn't for the attacks, where would they be now? What would they have as an invocation to further their agenda?

...if the Bush Administration plotters carried out 9/11 to justify attacking Iraq, why didn't they have Iraqi hijackers do the deed? In actuality, there was not a single Iraqi hijacker, and Bush propagandists had to do all sorts of gymnastics to link Iraq to the actual attackers.

That's a very, very good point.

I think they've already tried linking saddam to al qaeda but they found no evidence for that although cheney and rice are still aggressively asserting that there is connection even after the senate released memo there are simply none. I guess there are no iraqis in the us manufactured al qaeda terrorist network

Geggy
Sep 21st, 2006, 06:44 PM
One thing I want to know is where's the 911 conspiraicists debunking of that engineer report? That thing seems fairly accurate to me considering it likely has scientific evidence backing it. Usually uncredible science is debunked by credible scientists.

People argue that engineers around the world agree how wtc collapsed yet three scientific studies by engineers have come up with three different explanations...

Nist report-truss failure theory
Fema report-pancake collapse theory
Silverstein report-column failure theory

So which one is it?

KevinTheOmnivore
Sep 21st, 2006, 06:50 PM
I feel bad for you, geggy.

Geggy
Sep 21st, 2006, 06:53 PM
Excellent counter argument, kevin

Geggy
Sep 21st, 2006, 07:05 PM
Kevin this is the most recent report


Wednesday September 13, 09:10 PM

S.Korea riot police clear U.S. base protesters

PYONGTAEK, South Korea (Reuters) - More than 10,000 South Korean riot policemen with shields and batons dislodged about 50 residents and activists from homes on Wednesday during a protest over the expansion of a U.S. military base.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/060913/15/10ix9.html

Welcome to reality ;)

Or are you still going to call me a conspiracy theorist, which is code word for whacky? :lol

Grislygus
Sep 21st, 2006, 07:15 PM
I think they've already tried linking saddam to al qaeda but they found no evidence for that although cheney and rice are still aggressively asserting that there is connection even after the senate released memo there are simply none. I guess there are no iraqis in the us manufactured al qaeda terrorist network

...but since the United States created the Al Qaeda terrorist network, has complete control over it and its members, why didn't they hire Iraqi hijackers and actually give themselves the "proof" they need?

KevinTheOmnivore
Sep 21st, 2006, 07:55 PM
PYONGTAEK, South Korea (Reuters) - More than 10,000 South Korean riot policemen with shields and batons dislodged about 50 residents and activists from homes on Wednesday during a protest over the expansion of a U.S. military base.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/060913/15/10ix9.html

Welcome to reality ;)

I promised myself I wouldn't even bother with you anymore, but damn, I can't let this slide. I'm not even sure what your medication deprived brain thinks this means, but whatever it is, you're wrong.

The youth in S. Korea have become increasingly more anti-American, and more Left-wing. If you were to ask an older Korean, maybe someone who can remember the Korean War, you'd probably get a different reaction.

Geggy, what do you thinkwould happen if we pulled off of the DMZ?

Or are you still going to call me a conspiracy theorist, which is code word for whacky? :lol

I think "pathetic" summarizes it better.

Courage the Cowardly Dog
Sep 21st, 2006, 10:04 PM
I wouldn't call it the left so much as the wackos, I know a lot of right wing nut jobs who think it's a conspiracey too. But like I always say Missouri ain't the most intelligent of states (steps over chewing tobacco stain)

I've still yet to see any logic int he arguments. So there are 3 logical theories as to how it collpased (actually the pancake one was throw out I believe the current excepted one is core failure, that's why the trusses still held on and pulled outter supports inward cracking window panes before the collapse began.

May I ask though, If you have any logical eingeneering evidence to suggest a bomb? We have 3 ways it could have collapsed by plane, you have 0 ways it could have fallen by bomb/ voodoo/ gravitational pull of Hillary Clinton's ass.

Your theory is the government is extremely competant, and very evil, My theory is most government employees (outside of politicians and some crazy deep south sherrifs) are well meaning but not very competant. I've had to go through enough government crap to know they mean well, but aren't very good at what they do.

kahljorn
Sep 22nd, 2006, 12:09 AM
"Nist report-truss failure theory
Fema report-pancake collapse theory
Silverstein report-column failure theory "

Instead of answering this directly I would like to first ask you some questions:
If you want to know something about mathematics, do you ask a cowboy?
If you want to know something about cooking delicous mexican food, would you ask a water buffalo?

I'm sure the thousands of EDUCATED engineers who have DEGREES IN THE SUBJECT and an INTEREST IN IMPROVING THEIR BUILDINGS OR PROVING THEIR BUILDINGS ARE BUILT CORRECTLY that compiled this ten thousand page book might know what they are talking about more than FEMA and I don't even know what silverstein is.
I don't know but a report by fema and silverstein sound like, if anything, they wouldn't be "Scientific" and they certainly wouldn't be a final say in the matter. They were probably making a preliminary analysis, I'll have to look into the silverstein thing though.
Sometimes people have differing opinions though geggy especially in scientific fields but the important things is that they didn't f ind evidence of demolitions.

Geggy
Sep 22nd, 2006, 06:13 AM
Before I go on I just want to post this. I was going to start a new thread but since we're on the subject (sort of)...if you can't get a hint there's a cover up going on in this subject in the article, I don't know what will...someone lost his job for speaking out...documents were destroyed....

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Pentagon's inspector general on Thursday dismissed claims that an Army intelligence unit code-named Able Danger uncovered data that could have thwarted the September 11 attacks, saying the allegations could not be substantiated.

http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=13565594&src=ActiveBuddy

Tuesday, December 20, 2005
Nationwide spying could have averted 9/11: Cheney

WASHINGTON: US Vice President Richard Cheney suggested Sunday that the September 11 attacks could have been averted, if the government could have order surveillance of phone calls and emails without warrants.

In his first comment on a new rights controversy that has hit the US administration, Cheney said: "It's the kind of capability if we'd had before 9/11 might have led us to be able to prevent 9/11."

:lol

Courage the Cowardly Dog
Sep 22nd, 2006, 07:05 AM
all we knew ia that somewhere somehow maybe, terrorists wanted to do us harm, and may target planes.

Unless you read Tom Clancey at the time no one would suspect the planes into buildings thing. I seriously doubt letting this slip was anything more then either government incompetance or a lack of info (although i do not approve of new intel gathering methods)

the results are actually more of a timeframe, at first we thought truss failure preliminarily cause thats how buildings usually collapse, but further inspection of the videos revealed the trusses stayed attached and bowed under the fire. Fema says pancake but thats really an excuse, what happened to cause the pancake effect? The silverstiens report cleared it all up once and for all that the bowing trusses caused support failure and then the pancake effect occured.

Geggy
Sep 22nd, 2006, 08:05 AM
NORAD had drills of jets as weapons

By Steven Komarow and Tom Squitieri, USA TODAY

WASHINGTON In the two years before the Sept. 11 attacks, the North American Aerospace Defense Command conducted exercises simulating what the White House says was unimaginable at the time: hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties.

One of the imagined targets was the World Trade Center. In another exercise, jets performed a mock shootdown over the Atlantic Ocean of a jet supposedly laden with chemical poisons headed toward a target in the United States. In a third scenario, the target was the Pentagon but that drill was not run after Defense officials said it was unrealistic, NORAD and Defense officials say.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-04-18-norad_x.htm

KevinTheOmnivore
Sep 22nd, 2006, 08:27 AM
Once again, nothing.

I guess this time it's shame on me.

Geggy
Sep 22nd, 2006, 10:05 AM
...but since the United States created the Al Qaeda terrorist network, has complete control over it and its members, why didn't they hire Iraqi hijackers and actually give themselves the "proof" they need?

Yeah find an iraqi who is willing to learn how to fly planes and sacrifice themselves by crashing it into buildings for the interest of the US.

Rumsfled rushed into the war room literally right after the attack took place and called for immediate military deployment in Iraq. How would he have known right away that Iraq/Saddam was involved? They've been pushing the Saddam and 9/11 connection until it was discovered there was none. Of course they were forced to brew the WMD lies as justification to invade Iraq, and it worked.

Bin laden, white house's number one boogeyman, was named the culprit within 4 hours yet he denied any involvement in the month after 9/11. I've not seen one convincing evidence pointing his guilt. Even if he has called for holy war against the US before 9/11 and he did say he was responsible for the attacks in audio tapes, why doesnt the FBI use it as an evidence to indict osama?

Let me back up to OKC bombing, in the book "culture of fear" by barry glassner, it stated that 70 percent of american initially thought muslims were responsible of the bombing before the real perpetrator was caught.

Like i said in the other thread, when people are frightened, they become more passive and more susceptible to propaganda. They are willing to cling on higher authority to keep them safe and believe in whatever is told. That's why Bush approval rating went up to "record breaking" 90 percent at the time. Repetive images of Osama, planes crashing into the towers and wtc collaspe were shown on TV for months during the aftermath to keep them locked down on fear, resentment toward the "culprit" and emotional distress to make it all a blur for them to see the bigger picture.

KevinTheOmnivore
Sep 22nd, 2006, 11:16 AM
Bin laden, white house's number one boogeyman, was named the culprit within 4 hours yet he denied any involvement in the month after 9/11. I've not seen one convincing evidence pointing his guilt. Even if he has called for holy war against the US before 9/11 and he did say he was responsible for the attacks in audio tapes, why doesnt the FBI use it as an evidence to indict osama?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/09/07/alqaeda.911/index.html?section=cnn_topstories

Grislygus
Sep 22nd, 2006, 11:37 AM
Yeah find an iraqi who is willing to learn how to fly planes and sacrifice themselves by crashing it into buildings for the interest of the US.

Oh, of course. Iraqis would have more sense that that. But those Afghanis, what a bunch of crazy bastards, huh?


One: Why the hell would ANY new terrorists join Al Qaeda if it's obvious that it's "in the interest of the U.S."

Two: If it isn't common knowledge that Al Qaeda is in America's pocket, then why didn't America have Al Qaeda hire Iraqi hijackers?

El Blanco
Sep 22nd, 2006, 12:22 PM
Even if he has called for holy war against the US before 9/11 and he did say he was responsible for the attacks in audio tapes, why doesnt the FBI use it as an evidence to indict osama?


Because technicaly, an audio or video confession isn't enough for a warrant unless someone who was actually there when it was made will verify it under oath or a direct path to the suspect can be established.

Just out of curiosity, do you intend on looking any of this stuff up yourself, or do you expect us to do your work for you?

KevinTheOmnivore
Sep 22nd, 2006, 12:25 PM
It doesn't even matter if you were to do that. All of these things have been pointed out and cited for Geggy before, and he just brushes it off.

kahljorn
Sep 22nd, 2006, 12:57 PM
like i said geggy is a walking discrepancy, and like other discrepancies, he's covered in a thick adhesive glue that allows him to attract and stick to only other discrepancies.

Grislygus
Sep 22nd, 2006, 01:54 PM
But is he the master of discrepancies?

mburbank
Sep 22nd, 2006, 02:34 PM
I think there are only two real wys in which debunking is anything more than an odd sideshow attraction.

1.) As the fact that this article is from the Progressive points out, it's a pain in the ass for more mainstream lefties, and anything that even suggests the possability of tin foil hatism is used to degarde any possible point the mainstream left has. Like anyone listens to us anyway.

2.) Outside America, especially in the Arab world, 9/11 conspiracies are widely belived. But I don't think American debunking, even from the prgressive, adresses this.

I am far more concerned by what I think is a far more agruable and important crime. That before the day was out on 9/11 the Bsh adminsitration was already manipulating this tragedy to solidify their power and to acheive long held goals that had little to do with where the atttack had come from.

Even if a secret cabal of Cuban Homos and the mafia masterminded the attacks, you will never, never, never prove it. Thorough investigative journalism and historical research could easily make the cae that this adminsitration betrayed the country and the world by hijacking 9/11 and using it to consolidate unprecedented executive power and steer America away from constitutional democracy.

That's my Axe. And I bet the Progressive knows how to play it.

kahljorn
Sep 22nd, 2006, 02:47 PM
Seriously he's already admitted to lying about his response to 9/11 that geggy and alot of other people like to focus so much on. Plus come on ATTACK IRAQ CAUSE THEY HAVE NUKES FOR 9/11!!!

Courage the Cowardly Dog
Sep 22nd, 2006, 04:42 PM
...but since the United States created the Al Qaeda terrorist network, has complete control over it and its members, why didn't they hire Iraqi hijackers and actually give themselves the "proof" they need?

Yeah find an iraqi who is willing to learn how to fly planes and sacrifice themselves by crashing it into buildings for the interest of the US.

Rumsfled rushed into the war room literally right after the attack took place and called for immediate military deployment in Iraq. How would he have known right away that Iraq/Saddam was involved? They've been pushing the Saddam and 9/11 connection until it was discovered there was none. Of course they were forced to brew the WMD lies as justification to invade Iraq, and it worked.

Bin laden, white house's number one boogeyman, was named the culprit within 4 hours yet he denied any involvement in the month after 9/11. I've not seen one convincing evidence pointing his guilt. Even if he has called for holy war against the US before 9/11 and he did say he was responsible for the attacks in audio tapes, why doesnt the FBI use it as an evidence to indict osama?

Let me back up to OKC bombing, in the book "culture of fear" by barry glassner, it stated that 70 percent of american initially thought muslims were responsible of the bombing before the real perpetrator was caught.

Like i said in the other thread, when people are frightened, they become more passive and more susceptible to propaganda. They are willing to cling on higher authority to keep them safe and believe in whatever is told. That's why Bush approval rating went up to "record breaking" 90 percent at the time. Repetive images of Osama, planes crashing into the towers and wtc collaspe were shown on TV for months during the aftermath to keep them locked down on fear, resentment toward the "culprit" and emotional distress to make it all a blur for them to see the bigger picture.
This is the most intelligent post you've had in some time cause I agree 100% with ost of it.

The rush to blame saddam and rumours about it were rampant. Saddam being one of ou biggest enemies who had espoused terror it seemed only logical he was espousing THIS terror attack, but of course he was not.

I think the Iraq war whether you supprt it or not, has little to nothing to do with 9/11. I think it's more because of his crimes against humanity and our desire to make the middle east in general more moderate.

9/11 and Al Qaeda has no link with Iraq that's obvious now, which doesn't mean nessacarily that Saddam has nothing to do with other terrorism movements, just that he has nothing to do with ones that have been successfully attcking us, but he did constantly encourage attacks on our interests and calling us the Great Satan, so I do believe he may have been a threat eventually, but in general I think we went in to stop him from his crimes against humanity. I think we can all agree he's guilty of that at least.

However recently I'm wondering if the cost was to high, but now that we have dug in leaving is only gonna cause more trouble and death.

Of course I do unflinchingly support the war in afgahnistan as the taliban was openly supporting al qaeda.

Ant10708
Sep 23rd, 2006, 07:04 AM
Courage, most of the hijackers were Saudis. Which I have no idea why the U.S. would pick Saudi hijackers to fly planes into buildings in order to attack Iraq and afghanstan. I also thought Geggy believed it was crazy to think planes were hijacked at all.

Courage the Cowardly Dog
Sep 23rd, 2006, 10:32 AM
Courage, most of the hijackers were Saudis. Which I have no idea why the U.S. would pick Saudi hijackers to fly planes into buildings in order to attack Iraq and afghanstan. I also thought Geggy believed it was crazy to think planes were hijacked at all.i was reffering to his reffering to the plans to attack iraq and the culture of fear and all that. I still think he's full of shit when it comes to the US faking it all.