Re: Martin Fowler and the meaning of life

[Sethomas]

I posted a very similar thread to this probably about a year ago when I discovered Camus, but times change and so have I. I want to hear your thoughts.

Fartin made a comment about how futile it is to just think too goddamn much, as I'm wont to do. I've been at every corner of the existential spectrum, from blind acceptance of life's value in se et per se to crumbling in self-loathing for my having yet to end my one of billions of pointless lives in light of the fact that all life is pointless. When I dangle in the middle, I've often talked to perennial residents of each part of that spectrum. I ask the one "why keep going?" and the other "what the fuck is wrong with you?"

I think that the question is only really substantive if one doesn't consider the possibility of an afterlife. Right now I believe in a positive afterlife for those who earn it, although I make no claim to understanding its means. As for hell, I think that oblivion is punishment enough. Augustine defined evil as the privation of good, and I think that it's enough for evil souls enough to exist only long enough to highlight the good of others rather than necessitating an infinite expanse of time in excruciating physical pain.

That was a tangent, but what I was saying is that there's a certain integrity to living life as we do without expect of reward or fear of punishment. Or, alternately, the fear of perdition versus the reward of paradise should cancel each other out to require a fundamental internal reason for continuing in life. In the Book of Psalms heaven was promised as a balance for "this vale of tears"; the back of my book proposes my theory as a justification for "the stochastic fumbling of being and nothingness." But to assume nothing to existence but a lachrymose jumble of space and particles, why bother?

Kurt Vonnegut answered this question by saying that it was curiosity that put him through all these years. Despite Emerson's warning that imitation is suicide, I tend to fall in this line. If life is all we have, I may as well see what all I can get from it. I loathe philosophically-grounded egoism, but that is in fact the logical extension of nihilism. I would love to live for others, but I realize the irrationality of that. It's of little point to avoid hurting others with your departure if their equally pointless lives will end in a geological microsecond, isn't it?

So, I write this in a good time in my life when I have a wonderful significant other, a functional mental chemistry, and what's probably an irrational optimism for my own future. So, I figure, why not see what's next?

In that thread, what works for you guys?

[FartinMowler]

It's almost as though you think I know what the meaning of life is :/

In the movie Judge Dredd (1995):

* Warden Miller: So tell me, Rico, what is the meaning of life?
* Rico: It ends.


wouldn't it be ironic if I'm the one that someday explains all the answers to you :)

[DehydratedPorkMan]

Watch the movie Pi.

Loosely translated because my DVD player is broken:
"I named him Icarus, after you. You fly too high. If you keep thinking too hard you'll get burned."

It's something like that.

Going off on a tangent, too, but you mentioned it as well. I have a pessimistic view on heaven and hell and it's pretty basic. Because I'm bi-polar, I believe that your struggle through life is hell and when you die, your eternal peace is your heaven. Nobody I told that to has ever been happy about the view.

[kahljorn]

I'm going to not respond to seth cause he kind of said everything I would've already said :(
I think it's gay when people associate the meaning of life as, "GOING OUT TO PARTIES AND DRINKING WITH FRIEESESDNS LIVING LIFE THE WAY ITS MEANT TO BE LIVED IN SOCIAL CIRCLES BECOMING THE TOP OF THE SOCIAL HIERARCHY YAYAYAYA"
I mean what do you do Fartin Mowler that involves living life so much?

Don't many authors and poets end up KILLING THEMSELVES? There's plenty of poets and authors who have shitty lives and they end up being so shitty because they "Live life too much". Look at Bukowski. Any author or poet who acts like they enjoy being miserable is a liar. That's partly how you can tell a GOOD writer from a BAD writer when the characters feelings are actually appropriate to a situation.
I mean seriously it's not like EVERY poet and author has THE MOST INTERESTING LIVES EVER or something ;/

I think that regardless of if you are having intellectual studies or going out drinking with friends and making funy jokes that everyone laughs at you're still "Alive" and "Living life". I would say that INTELLECTUALISM created your ability to drink and make funny jokes with friends (language right) and everything you know and love and feel comfortable about in life was created by intellectualism. It's kind of dumb to insult people who read books when it's usually them who end up improving life.

[FartinMowler]

I mean what do you do Fartin Mowler that involves living life so much?

still havn't a sense of humour even though you know the world around you is somewhat doomed :) Men like Oppenheimer thought to much :/

[kahljorn]

You didn't answer my question.

"created your ability to drink and make funny jokes with friends" I also said that. I guess you think making funny jokes and laughing is what living life is all about.

Also I do have a sense of humor sorry if my "Sense of humor" doesn't mean that I make everything in life a joke even the things that dont have to be, but then I don't really understand what you're saying. I guess that's not GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOUR HIGHFLYING FREELIFELIVING experiences.

Plus don't act like it's all a joke then afterwards follow it up by saying, "PEOPLE LIKE OPENHOUSEHEIMER THOUGHT TOO MUCH SERIOUSLY".

I think it's funny that whenever people talk about the meaning of life or "LIving life" they always do it by talking about what they think they're good at.

I think "Living life" might mean a bit more than being able to laugh when things go wrong. I mean, that's nice and all, but there's alot more. Like, for example, if you want to um i dont know live life and you were a caveman or a villager you'd have to go out and kill pigs or pick berries that's not a joke i don't think they were laughing about it, maybe afterwards but still that was laughter in the expediecy of the moment because the actions required to remain alive had already taken place and they could relax and laugh.

[FartinMowler]

"created your ability to drink and make funny jokes with friends" I also said that. I guess you think making funny jokes and laughing is what living life is all about.

How did you get that from I don't respect people that don't take the time to understand that the true poets and authors lived life to explain life not bitch and moan.

I think it's funny that whenever people talk about the meaning of life or "LIving life" they always do it by talking about what they think they're good at

:rolleyes

this is a fun read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life

[ArrowX]

How bout don't think about it, it wont matter to you because your DEAD. Its like Going to sleep except like a billion times more nonexistent.

[kahljorn]

"I mean what do you do Fartin Mowler that involves living life so much?"

"still havn't a sense of humour even though you know the world around you is somewhat doomed"

I don't see what seth "Bitching and moaning" has to do with cosmological arguments intended to explain the universe ;/
I guess I should be saying:
"How did you get that from that?"

[kahljorn]

the reason I assumed you were talking about funny jokes is because you've done this "YOURE OVERTHINKING" thing too much allong side the, "YOU'RE A STUFFY INTELLECTUAL GET OUT AND LIVE LIFE" thing as well and it always ends up in you making a bunch of jokes and showing how "Carefree" you are.

[FartinMowler]

why do you use caps?

I'm not carefree, of course I get stressed about the simplest things in life that matter, not things I can't have any possible control over.

[kahljorn]

I almost always use caps when I'm trying to overexagerate.

[FartinMowler]

CHICAGO (AFP) - The world is inching closer to nuclear Armageddon, a group of prominent scientists and security experts said.
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It currently stands once again at seven minutes to midnight, the closest to danger since the end of the Cold War.

Founded in 1945 by scientists who had helped develop the atomic bomb and were deeply concerned about the use of nuclear weapons, the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists counts 17 Nobel laureates among its boards of directors and sponsors.

Here are the dates and reasons for previous changes:

- 2002: Seven minutes to midnight

The United States rejects a series of arms control treaties and announces it will withdraw from the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty. Terrorists seek to acquire and use nuclear and biological weapons.

- 1998: Nine minutes to midnight

India and Pakistan "go public" with nuclear tests. The United States and Russia cannot agree on further deep reductions in their nuclear stockpiles.

- 1995: Fourteen minutes to midnight

Further arms reductions stall while global military spending continues at Cold War levels. Risks of nuclear "leakage" from poorly guarded former Soviet facilities increase.

- 1991: Seventeen minutes to midnight

The United States and the Soviet Union sign the long-stalled Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty (START) and announce further unilateral cuts in tactical and strategic nuclear weapons.

- 1990: Ten minutes to midnight

The Cold War ends as the Iron Curtain falls.

- 1988: Six minutes to midnight

The United States and the Soviet Union sign a treaty to eliminate intermediate-range nuclear forces; superpower relations improve; more nations actively oppose nuclear weapons.

- 1984: Three minutes to midnight

The arms race accelerates.

- 1981: Four minutes to midnight

Both superpowers develop more weapons for fighting a nuclear war. Terrorist actions, repression of human rights, and conflicts in
Afghanistan, Poland and South Africa add to world tension.

- 1980: Seven minutes to midnight

The deadlock in US-Soviet arms talks continues; nationalistic wars and terrorist actions increase; the gulf between rich and poor nations grows wider.

- 1974: Nine minutes to midnight

SALT talks reach an impasse; India develops a nuclear weapon.

- 1972: Twelve minutes to midnight

The United States and the Soviet Union sign the first Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty and the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty.

- 1969: Ten minutes to midnight

The US Senate ratifies the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

- 1968: Seven minutes to midnight

France and China acquire nuclear weapons; wars rage in the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent, and Vietnam; world military spending increases while development funds shrink.

- 1963: Twelve minutes to midnight

:( I'm going to a band practice today and hope I do well :)

[kahljorn]

Don't overthink it ;) ;) :0 :)

[Grislygus]

Personally, I think that we're just going into another terrifying Cold War. (Call me an optimist.)

[FartinMowler]

I remember when the band Rush came out with there album Grace under pressure and it really had me freaked out. I used to have nightmares about shit like that back in the early eighties and look what happened to him.



Distant Early Warning
------- ----- -------
An ill wind comes arising
Across the cities of the plain
There's no swimming in the heavy water --
No singing in the acid rain
Red alert
Red alert

It's so hard to stay together
Passing through revolving doors
We need someone to talk to
And someone to sweep the floors --
Incomplete
Incomplete

The world weighs on my shoulders
But what am I to do?
you sometimes drive me crazy --
But I worry about you

I know it makes on difference
To what you're going through
But I see the tip of the iceberg --
And I worry about you...

Cruising under your radar
Watching from satellites
Take a page from the red book --
Keep them in your sights
Red alert
Red alert

Left and rights of passage
Black and whites of youth
Who can face the knowledge
That the truth is not the truth?
Obsolete
Absolute

On August 10, 1997, Peart's daughter and only child, 19-year-old Selena Taylor, was killed in a single-car accident somewhere between Ottawa and Toronto. His common-law wife of 22 years, Jaqueline Taylor, succumbed to cancer only 10 months later on June 20, 1998. Peart, however, maintains that her death was the result of a "broken heart" and called it "a slow suicide by apathy. She just didn't care." [1]

[kahljorn]

FARTIN MOWLER AND THE MEANING OF LIFE:
Fartin Mowler and his partner Mr. Will Graham are heading to what might be the most difficult case in their lives.

Mr. Will Graham (sitting in the passenger seat)

I had a dream last night that I’m walking past a huge group of people protesting global warming, and as I walk by I let out a fart

Fartin Mowler

And good a morning to you, what kind of fart?

Mr. Will Graham

Not a wet fart (pauses and clenches his ass) it was a really perfect sounding fart, like a French horn

Fartin Mowler (does a funky black guy voice)

I like the French horn, if I was going to mix a cool song I would have French horn and some hot black chicks dancing in my video

Mr.Will Graham

Then…(rolls his eyes) less than a few feet away there sits a sweet old lady in a bright yellow rain coat giggling and she looks like she’s trying to clench her ass and does the spontaneous combustion thing.

Fartin Mowler (unclenches his ass)

People don’t just combust

Mr. Will Graham (raises his voice really loud starts using his hands wildy to explain how scary his dream was)

Protesters then start running over and beating the old lady trying to put her out but it’s no good, she explodes with a rain of plastic rain coat and body pieces landing everywhere lighting the protesters on fire

Fartin Mowler (hearing the call on the radio Fartin drives even faster)

So it’s an Irony thing?

Mr. Wil Graham (hands are still up in the air from his wild out burst of emotion)

(To be continued)

http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=24782

[Sethomas]

Sorry for the bump, but I decided to make this a YouTube challenge because I want to be online popular and shit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saFMfd10tNg

[FartinMowler]

Thank goodness for your tangents and irrational optimism.

[theapportioner]

I think the question is so hopelessly confused it's meaningless.

[Sethomas]

Then why not admit defeat and kill oneself? That's what it's all about, isn't it? Or are you saying there's a better question to be asked?

[FartinMowler]

It's not a question...the meaning of life is finding meaning to your life :rolleyes

[Sethomas]

Or, as Sartre said, "existence precedes essence". That's the crux of Existentialism. But does that mean that if we find no essence/meaning, we should feel liberated to call it quits?

[FartinMowler]

Do your farts smell better than mine?

[Cosmo Electrolux]

:lol This is the best thread ever....EVER!

[kahljorn]

I was just talking about this recently because it seems that regardless of what the universe is, the "Ultimate End" we can reach is either non-existent or meaningless.

[FartinMowler]

Why would you talk about it if it were meaningless? Maybe you guys should study social ineptness.

[kahljorn]

uhh, because the point is in finding out if it IS meaningless. Also, if it is meaningless it dispels like 95% of everybody's personal belief system.

fartin, saying things like that is really stupid ;(

Am I the only one who thinks it's strange when people rag on philosophy? Especially in this modern age which is largely the summation of philosophy.

ps 3) Don't be an anti-topic poster. I know we all do it, but let's try to stop it. For example, if there's a thread on gay rights, feel free to post in support or opposition to the issue. However, if you make a post that says something like "omg, guys, why are we talking about this, it sucks, lol," I'll delete it. An abundance of stupid posts will drown out the quality posts, which we don't want happening. that's you fartin
Although I thought your question was a good question, I can just feel your anti-topic pretention through the computer.

[FartinMowler]

I can just feel your anti-topic pretention through the computer.

:lol

I'm watching A&E Biography of Courntey Love :meltand I'm making an Egg sandwich :\

[kahljorn]

how fitting that you'd be learning about courtney love with a mouth full of eggs. Now THATS a complete educational experience.

[FartinMowler]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v68/fartinmowler/heroAd.jpg
one of these people knows the meaning of life.

[SKATERMONKEY]

So does this guy. I mean.. look at him!

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q6/skatermonkey_photos/JAY012.jpg

[Grislygus]

ps 3) Don't be an anti-topic poster. I know we all do it, but let's try to stop it. For example, if there's a thread on gay rights, feel free to post in support or opposition to the issue. However, if you make a post that says something like "omg, guys, why are we talking about this, it sucks, lol," I'll delete it.

Kahljorn can delete other people's posts?!

[kahljorn]

yea dude look out

if i wasn't such a nice guy and understood that fartin is already suppressed oppressed and censored this thread wouldn't even exist. Put that in your existentialist pipe and smoke it.

[FartinMowler]

The meaning of Life by Fartin Mowler

Egg heads (someone that thinks they are smart) piss me off. An Egghead is in the same family as a Helmet Heat (someone with low mental capacity) that thinks that if they read a bunch of shit by people that someone said is smart they join a club of elite social outcasts. You know what? you don't and I'm smart because I've lived my life knowing that in any situation I might die and It wouldn't matter if I was smart when I did it.

[kahljorn]

Yea man fartinmowler knows what's up he lives his life on a message board on the internet typing away never using his brain that's the way to live man don't use your brain the internet can exist without it and so can message boards and languages and authors and all this other crap that you fill your life with.

go live in a forest you jackass and quit trying to act like you're some zen master or some shit because you don't read books. MY LIFE IS SO COOL AND MEANINGFUL BECAUSE I NEVER READ A BOOK AND I PLAYED MUSIC GUITAR AND HAD "FUN" WEEE. I DONT HAVE TO BE SMART TO DIE HAR HAR.
None of this meaning you ascribe your life is going to matter after you die, either. All this, "I did it" crap isn't going to mean a damn thing, and you're not going to sit around after you're dead going, "I DID IT MYSELF" bragging to people because you'll be dead. So don't try to act like what you do has more meaning than anything else because you did it without books.

And again uh you're stupid. The life you live now is attributable entirely to "dumb brainy smarties." People who had ideas like industry and freedom and shit like that. You can live your life like an empty douchebag because of them, but don't try to act like your life is more meaningful than theirs at the same time -- because the "Meaningful life" you have only has meaning because of them. Probably everything in your life you would call "Meaningful" (like your freedom) comes from some egg-heads ideas. Chances are, those egg heads read other eggheads.
Conclusion: Shut the fuck up.

the end. dumb head.

[kahljorn]

"These tasks, and therefore the meaning of life, differ from man to man, and from moment to moment. Thus it is impossible to define the meaning of life in a general way. Questions about the meaning of life can never be answered by sweeping statements. "Life" does not mean something vague, but something very real and concrete, just as life's tasks are also very real and conrete. They form man's destiny, which is different and unique for each individual. No man and no destiny can be compared with any other man or any other destiny. No situation repeats itself, and each situations calls for a different response. Sometimes the situation in which a man finds himself may require him to shape his own fate by action. At other times it is more advatageous for him to make use of an opportunity for contemplation and to realize assets in this way. Sometimes man may be required simply to accept fate, to bear his cross. Every situation is distinguished by its uniqueness, and there is always only one right answer to the problem posed by the situation at hand."

that's from a BOOK i was READIng last night.

ps I might disagree with that last statement a bit, for there's certainly ambigous answers to some problems, or even just problems that can have more than one solution. Some answers might be better than other answers, though, so there could be a degree of rightness ;o

[FartinMowler]

kahljorn "These tasks, and therefore the meaning of life, differ from man to man, and from moment to moment. Thus it is impossible to define the meaning of life in a general way. Questions about the meaning of life can never be answered by sweeping statements. "Life" does not mean something vague, but something very real and concrete, just as life's tasks are also very real and conrete. They form man's destiny, which is different and unique for each individual. No man and no destiny can be compared with any other man or any other destiny. No situation repeats itself, and each situations calls for a different response. Sometimes the situation in which a man finds himself may require him to shape his own fate by action. At other times it is more advatageous for him to make use of an opportunity for contemplation and to realize assets in this way. Sometimes man may be required simply to accept fate, to bear his cross. Every situation is distinguished by its uniqueness, and there is always only one right answer to the problem posed by the situation at hand."

Yesterday I walked and thought and then it came to me that if I go back to the place that I walked before I might find what I was looking for. I went back and looked and there on the ground lay a little bird wounded. I knelt down and said to the little bird "Little bird what is the meaning of life?" and the little bird looked up at me with his little eyes and said "Don't fly into fucking windows" :\

[kahljorn]

I hope that's a joke mister.:|

[theapportioner]

Then why not admit defeat and kill oneself? That's what it's all about, isn't it? Or are you saying there's a better question to be asked?

More the latter. I think the question "what is the meaning of life?" is ill-posed and too ambiguous to be meaningful, heh. Meaning for whom? Life in general? Human life? An individual's life? Your life?

And what do you mean by meaning? Teleology? An end, or purpose to life? The value of life? The function of life? I think if you mean to say "purpose of life" that's one thing, maybe more explicable, but the concept "meaning of life" is strange to me. "Meaning of your life", or mine, that may be easier to understand.

[theapportioner]

As for me, I have varying ideas, but to respond to Fartin's remark as paraphrased by Seth, I am of the opinion that our subjective experience imbues a sense of value and purpose to OUR lives. OUR lives have meaning, if you will, because of our memories, our narrative stories, our histories and future aspirations, values, dreams, and goals. I don't see what more meaning you could really want.

[theapportioner]

Or, as Sartre said, "existence precedes essence". That's the crux of Existentialism. But does that mean that if we find no essence/meaning, we should feel liberated to call it quits?

Well, for Sartre essence or facticity is basically everything that doesn't include consciousness. So, we all necessarily have "essence", and our past counts as part of that essence, or being-in-itself. I'm not sure I understand.

[kahljorn]

How are memories, narrative stories, histories and future aspirations meaningful? Objectively and truthfully, they are meaningless. Telelogically they are meaningless. In what ultimate end, in what ideal of man, will you find his memories, narrative accounts and histories? Maybe you can find an ultimate end in the future, but it's not very close and you have no idea when it will come or what it will be.

the question what is the meaning of life is ambiguous. That's what sethomas was talking about when he said existence proceeds essence. Existence proceeds meaning is pretty similar. In order for anything to have meaning, existence must exist. So does that mean things are intrinisically meaningless? It's also a statement that meaning only exists subjectively. "LIFE MEANS DIFFERENT THINGS TO DIFFERENT THINGS".
the meaning of life is to live lol

[theapportioner]

How are memories, narrative stories, histories and future aspirations meaningful? Objectively and truthfully, they are meaningless.

And how are they objective? My entire point (and yours) is that meaning is necessarily subjective, and what we do over the course of our lives creates that meaning.

That's what sethomas was talking about when he said existence proceeds essence. Existence proceeds meaning is pretty similar ... It's also a statement that meaning only exists subjectively.Well, exactly.

[theapportioner]

"LIFE MEANS DIFFERENT THINGS TO DIFFERENT THINGS".

The content of that meaning will differ, but I'm arguing that the structure of the meaning (histories, narrative stories, futures etc.) is basically the same for all people.

[kahljorn]

Subjective meaning doesn't really have any real meaning. it's subjective and based on the individual. sometimes it might not even be meaningful. creating meaning basically means filling things with empty meaning to make yourself feel like you mean something. Nothing means anything, stranger face.
Like I said, if meaning is subjective doesn't that mean meaning is inherently meaningless, especially insofar as ultimate ends and having a point to existence?
and what do we value, really? don't we usually value most the surreal and objective forces? don't we value ultimate ends and meaningful lives insofar as achieving that ultimate end.