POLICE FIRE RUBBER BULLETS AT PROTESTERS

[mburbank]

I post this with a caution, this story is less than an hour old and while domestic stories can be verified more quickly than foreign, I still thought this was worth posting.

Rubber Bullets Used Against Oakland War Protesters
57 minutes ago


OAKLAND, Calif. (Reuters) - Police fired rubber bullets on Monday against hundreds of anti-war protesters blocking a road near Oakland's port, witnesses and officials said.

Local media reported several longshoremen were injured in what is believed to be the first police use of rubber bullets against demonstrators since President Bush launched a war aimed at toppling Iraqi President Saddam Hussein on March 19.

Demonstrators were seeking to block access to American President Lines, a shipping company they claimed was profiting from the war in Iraq . Police at the scene said they used two types of rubber bullets to disperse about 750 protesters and that some arrests were made.




Certainly one expects the Police to arrest people who engage in civil dissobedience, but to fire on them? Rubber bullets have been found to be potentially lethal. I think this is an appauling disturbing overreaction. I await stories detailing what motivated the shooting (crowd dispersal after three warnings is the only reason given to date, the were blocking access to a shipping business), what the extent of the injuries were and who authorized the use of Rubber Bullets and projectile "bean Bags" as acceptable crowd control.

If there are any interested amateur researchers out there with more time than I, I'd also be interested to know when the last time US police used rubber bullets to disperse a crowd. My guess is this is the first time since kent state a crowd was fired upon to prevent a riot which had yet to take place. Pre-emption comes home.

[Abcdxxxx]

I heard there were only 300 protestors, and the police were breaking up altercations between the long shore men and the protestors. I guess that means they were shooting at them to protect them from the long shore men? It sounds odd to me for an action to target the day to day business of a company that just MIGHT bennefit from the war. These people must really trust whatever news source they're getting their info from. Jeez. Oakland police are nuts anyway, and they have a long history of being off their rocker that goes waaaaaaay back.

LAPD use rubber bullets all the time. Portland police just used them recently to stop people from spray painting anti-Bush grafiti.

[FS]

Well jeeez. It's not like they were lead. Those damn treehuggers just bruise easily. :rolleyes

[Abcdxxxx]

Yup, let's go to the docks during a high alert and attack union workers. IN OAKLAND. Sounds brrrrrrrrrilliant. If you wanna get your head cracked and end up on cable news maybe.

Anyone know their "peoples resistance history"? This is a very weighted move, either made out of ignorance or disrespect....and neither of those options have anything to do with treehugging.

[James]

Fucking sissies got what they deserved. Keep the wussy protesting in your living room where it belongs, you little girls.

[mburbank]

The article I read was completely unclear as to who's side the longshoremen were on, and it's a more difficult call than it at first appears. Organized labor has officially come out against the war, though I'm sure lots of individaul longshoremen are for it, especially if you try to close their worksite. On the other other hand, I douybt strongly they have had their union gauranteed pay docked if they were delayed due to a protest.

These are all questions any good article would address, which speaks to what passes for journalism these days.

Abcdzxx; are you from Portland, Or. I lived there about 20 years ago during a banner period of police brutality. There was also a scandal involving the police making a habbit of leaving dead possums on the back steps of Soul Food Restaurants.

[Abcdxxxx]

Okay rather then by cryptic I'll elaborate on what I'm talking about...
Oakland obviously used to be primarly a poor inner city working class population.... so taking activism back to these shipyards recalls the creation of the Black Panthers, a hundred years of labor riots, and a whole mess of other issues. The Navy used to dominate these shipyards, which was another reason why it was such a target for attention during Vietnam, etc. but it still remains one of our 29 major Pacific ports.

So also consider this...who are they hurting by this action? The working class longshoremen embroiled in bitter contract disputes with the Pacific Maritime Association, that's who. The International Longshore and Wharehouse Union port workers have been trying to save their jobs from Bush's INS reforms becuase of post 9/11 security risks. Bush even invoked the Taft Hartley act to prevent them from striking. Any problems down there and it's likely they'll lose certain jobs to the National Gaurd. Today the men had to walk off the job... they don't like being shot at either.

[Abcdxxxx]

burbank - not from portland but i like soul food and opposums.


Police Open Fire At Oakland Anti-War Protest
Longshoremen Injured
(ABC7)Apr. 7 (AP) — Police opened fire Monday morning with wooden dowels, "sting balls" and other non-lethal weapons at anti-war protesters outside the Port of Oakland, injuring at least a dozen demonstrators and six longshoremen standing nearby.

Most of the 500 demonstrators at the port were dispersed peacefully, but police opened fire at two gates when protesters refused to move. The longshoremen, pinned against a fence, were caught in the crossfire.

The port protest was one of several anti-war demonstrations Monday in the San Francisco Bay area. Twelve people were arrested at the Concord Naval Weapons Station, and seven were arrested after temporarily blocking an off-ramp from Interstate 280 in San Francisco.
The Rev. Lee Williamson of Hayward knelt quietly in prayer at the foot of one officer at the naval weapons station.
"I think it's necessary to come to places that continue to fuel death and destruction," Williamson said. "I think the whole thing is immoral from the get-go."
About 50 medical students, doctors and teachers demonstrated for two hours in front of Sen. Dianne Feinstein's office in San Francisco. In Sunnyvale, demonstrators planned to present a letter to Lockheed Martin opposing the use of that company's products in the war.
And in Sacramento, nine anti-war protesters were arrested when they blocked the entrance to the federal building.
About 200 of the port demonstrators later marched to the federal building in Oakland, blocking a street and chanting: "Out of the office and into the streets! U.S. out of the Middle East!" They were joined by Oakland City Council members Jane Bruner and Jean Quan.
"They should not have been using the wooden bullets," Bruner said. "Given what's happening in the world today, we're going to be seeing more of this. And we should be prepared to handle it."
Demonstrators said it was the first time they had been fired upon since anti-war protests started in the San Francisco Bay area more than two weeks ago.
Liz Highleyman, a San Francisco writer who has been at many of the major protests across the country in recent years, said the police response reminded her of the World Trade Organization riots in Seattle four years ago.
"This is a level of injury as high as I've seen anywhere since Seattle in 1999," she said.
Protesters said they targeted the Port of Oakland because at least one of the companies there, APL, is handling war supplies.
APL spokesman Jerry Drelling declined to discuss the shipping company's military contracts. But he confirmed that APL participates in the U.S Department of Transportation's Maritime Security Program that pays commercial shipping lines for the right to take over their vessels during war.
Oakland police said at least 24 people were arrested at the port.
"Some people were blocking port property and the port authorities asked us to move them off," said Deputy Police Chief Patrick Haw. "Police moved aggressively against crowds because some people threw rocks and big iron bolts at officers."
Police spokeswoman Danielle Ashford said officers fired bean-bag rounds and wooden dowels. They also used sting balls, which send out a spray of BB-sized rubber pellets and a cloud of tear gas.
"When they hit you, it feels like a bee sting," Haw said.
Six longshoremen were treated by paramedics, as were at least a dozen protesters — some of whom had bloody welts the size of a silver dollar.
"I was standing as far back as I could," said longshoremen Kevin Wilson. "It was very scary. All of that force wasn't necessary."
Steve Stallone, spokesman for the International Longshore and Warehouse Union, said most of the dockworkers went back to work after the protesters left. A few were too shaken up to return.
He said a union arbitrator was evaluating the situation, trying to determine whether the longshoremen should cross the protesters' picket line and go to work, when police started firing.
"They didn't care," he said. "They just attacked the picket line. They declared it an illegal assembly and gave people two minutes to disperse. The police did not move to arrest anyone, they just started shooting."
The San Francisco Bay area has been the site of some of the biggest and most boisterous anti-war protests in the country. In the first few days after the war began, there were more than 2,000 arrests when demonstrators blocked downtown streets and tried to seize control of the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge.

[mburbank]

I think I'm inclined to agree with you that the choice of the protest location was very poor and am more curious than ever what factions (both pro and con) played what role in the decision. If it was chosen solely for it's historical resonance, that's stupid and counter productive. Perhaps tomorrows paper will shed more light about what actually took place.

As far as the use of rubber bullets goes, and the use of them by police:

I'm in favor of them when the alternative is live ammo.

Using them to disperse crowds and break up fights strikes me as... well, stupid, counterproductive and down right dangerous.

[Cap'n Crunch]

I think the rubber pellets was a good idea at that moment. They were protesting in the wrong spot, and the police told them to move. I think that got what they deserved. They did have another alternative, BEANBAGS!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I think maybe I missed it in ABC's article, but I'm still confused by the situation. Were there confrontations between the dock workers and the protestors, or was it a case of wrong place, wrong time for the longshore men...?

[Ninjavenom]

A friend of mine was shot in the arm with one when he stepped onto (or was it off? :confused) the curb when protesting in DC. :/

[Abcdxxxx]

My understanding of it was that the protestors were trying to shut down business (much the same way they tried to do with Bechtel... a much better target if you ask me*) and there were altercations with the longshoremen as they prevented them from going to work. These are old retired Navy docks, so when companys sign on to use them they agree that they'll assist the government in times of war. As far as I know, this wasn't a Haliburton type company they targetted. When cops came to break it up the dock workers got caught in the middle and pinned. The article I posted, and a few others describe wood bullets (???). I've seen pictures posted around the web of injuries from these shots and they look fucking BAD. Fox News had footage of police aiming rifles RIGHT AT the crowd and just shooting people point blank in their backs. They must have been bad shots though because nobody seemed to be dropping from a hit.

What disturbs me about this most is knowing that the police get overtime for this kind of shit, and they're on tax payers salary...but a lot of these anarchists are professionals too, and they're earning a salary for these type of actions...so it's like paid thugs battling in the name of "peace". What the fuck?

(*Bechtel build nuclear reactors around the world, and mainly staffs foriegn nationals, predominantly from Middle Eastern countries. They're also closely tied to the Reagan and Bush presidencys. Oh and they're currently ruining Boston)

[KevinTheOmnivore]

but a lot of these anarchists are professionals too, and they're earning a salary for these type of actions...so it's like paid thugs battling in the name of "peace". What the fuck?

Such as who? Not to say you're wrong, I'djust be interested to know.....

The articles I have read on this don't seem to imply confrontation, but regardless, I certainly don't think the protestors went there to target the longshore men (that would be asinine).

[theapportioner]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030407/capt.1049738719.war_iraq_us_protests_caps105.jpg

Ouch.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

WOW.

[theapportioner]

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030407/i/1049743752.2550276186.jpg

Just or unjust their fight, this is excessive by any standard.

[theapportioner]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20030407/mdf251648.jpg

Aren't they supposed to be aiming at the ground?

[GAsux]

The protestors probably could have choosen a better way/place to voice their opinions. Agreed.

The use of rubber and wooden bullets was way too much. Agreed.

Having spent a few years in a law enforcement type environment, mind you a military one, the guiding principle is typically using a force ladder so to speak. That is, you meet the threat with the next level of higher force to resolve the situation. Seems to me like they skipped a few rungs.

[Jeanette X]

Criminy! Rubber bullets are nasty!

Did the protestors actually commit any violent acts to warrant use of force?

[Abcdxxxx]

OAKTOWN KNOWS HOW TO PARTAY!!!

I don't have a specific contact I can recommend to you for anarchist employment. I grew up in San Francisco, where it's common knowledge that there are professional anarchists living off various grants, and non-profit covers or scamming landlords through rent control laws to stickit to the maaaan. You'd go over to their homes and the backyards would be filled with various signs for various causes. You'd hear stories about kids with year round jobs organizing the major actions against the WTO etc. or taking part in some form of grassroot political action for a living. If you're ever in SF and have a chance to watch the city supervisors open sessions on live TV you would see what I meant.... lines and lines of "activists" and "concerned citizens" introducing themselves and the makeshift organizations they represented... most of which you get the feeling they are the sole members of....this is their declared occupation. You meet people at parties and they introduce themselves as "political activists". You'd go to teacher parent night at school and find out your friends dad was running some freaky socialist newspaper out of his basement for a living. They had to rip up the panhandle in Golden Gate park because it was becoming over populated with people sleeping there, and living off the soup at Food Not Bombs. The civic center outside of City Hall was a tent city of politicaly active homeless people that refused to move. I'm talking high end camping gear tents. So yeah, there are pro-anarchists.

[Ronnie Raygun]

I guess those people just had to learn the hard way not to attack police and break the law.

Did you know that they were also trying to stop shipments that were going to our troops over seas?


That got just what they deserved.....and I hope we see more of it.

[mburbank]

The degree to which you are a callous son of a bitch never ceases to amaze me. Post any reporting which describes the portesters as "Attacking" police. Look at the photo of the arms the police had at their disposal and the picture of that girls face and tell me her attack was credible enough to warrant that reponse.

I have no idea wether that port was sending supplies to our forces or not, but post your evidence.

When Jesus said "Turn the other cheek" do you supose he only said that because the rubber bullet had not yet been invented? Do you favor a police state where disobeying direct order from an officer results in that kind of injury?

Can you not imagine any circumstance happening in America where YOU might not find civil disobedience warranted? How would you feel about those wounds on your face?

Here are the only two questions I'm posing I really want you to answer. On several occasions, anti abortion protesters have been arrested for trespassing because they would not disperse when the polcie ordered them to. If the police fired rubber bullets and wounded a young woman the way the one on the picture was, would you respond

"I guess those people just had to learn the hard way not to attack police and break the law. "

And if that girl had gotten up and still refused to move, would it have been alright to kill her so that "Those people" ie. American citiizens

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I guess those people just had to learn the hard way not to attack police and break the law.

Did you know that they were also trying to stop shipments that were going to our troops over seas?


That got just what they deserved.....and I hope we see more of it.

YOU'RE RIGHT, THOSE LONGSHOREMEN SOB's GOT WHAT THEY DESERVE, THAT'LL TEACH THEM FOR BEING IN THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME! >:

Max is right. You really are an empty individual.

[mburbank]

Congratulations, Naldo. this is really a new low for you. I once more think less of you than Vince.

YOU HEAR THAT, VINCE? YOU NEED TO SUCK MORE TO IMPRESS ME NOW!

[Cap'n Crunch]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030407/capt.1049738719.war_iraq_us_protests_caps105.jpg

That thing on her nose is sickening.

[FS]

I for one would also like to see this happen more often. Preferably when Ronnie is around and gets mistaken for a particularly militant war protestor.

[Jeanette X]

I guess those people just had to learn the hard way not to attack police and break the law.

Did you know that they were also trying to stop shipments that were going to our troops over seas?


That got just what they deserved.....and I hope we see more of it.

Ronnie, you make me fucking sick. Did it say ANYWHERE that those protesters attacked police? You dumb fuck.
Even if the protestors had attacked, the use of rubber bullets isn't supposed to occur unless it the situation really gets bad.
You are a fucking idiot Ronnie.

[Protoclown]

I guess that's the kind of attitude a "good Christian" would have.

[mburbank]

"I hope to see more of it"

That's the part that really gets me, Nalds, the active desire on your part to see authority physically punish the people who disagree with them. Do you enjoy looking at those pictures? Do you "Hope" to see more of them? And you dare think I want American soldiers to die.

Find me anything in the teachings of Jesus (I hear he's a really great ploitical philosipher) that suports your desire to see more.

Jesus, a man who willingly allowed himself to be crucified for his opposition to authority and who's civil disobedience often crossed lthe legal boundaries of his time, would be ashamed of you.

[Ronnie Raygun]

HAHAHA!

You people are falling apart because it's so evident that you were wrong about the war and that things are going well for the administration and even better...the country.

http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82~1865~1310008,00.html

This article states that rocks were being thrown at the officers and foxnews reported that "chunks of concrete" were being thrown at the police.

What do you expect when you attack police officers?

[Protoclown]

Did you jerk off when you looked at those pictures, Ronnie?

[Ronnie Raygun]

wOw! Great response.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

How manythrew rocks, Ronnie?? 1? 5? 10??? Isanybody other than the police verifying this?? Anybody other than garbage Fox News???

What the article however DOES clearly show is that the police had political motives to use such force. That's great.

You are inhuman.

[Ronnie Raygun]

I give our good women and men in unifrom who are out their every day enforcing the law and cleaning up the streets the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise........not vice versa.

[sspadowsky]

Oh, so you believe that the cops are always right, and their suspects are guilty until proven innocent, hmmm? I believe the 8th and 14th amendments provide for Due Process and Equal Protection Under the Law, respectively.

So obviously you hate those, and therefore you hate what Amercia stands for.
________
MEXICO CITY HOTEL (http://mexicocityhotel.info)

[Ronnie Raygun]

I've never seen anyone try so hard and yet fail to connect the dots.

It's pretty obvious that they were breaking the law. Are you saying that they were not?

If so, then you will be disagreeing with the protesters themselves.

I agree that they should have their day in court. I'd hate for them not to be prosecuted for breaking the law. I hope the judge throws the book at them.

[sspadowsky]

I'd hate for them not to be prosecuted for breaking the law. I hope the judge throws the book at them.

Why, that sounds an awful lot like judging someone before they are given the fair and speedy trial to which they are entitled. Which shows your hatred of two Constitutional Amendments, and therefore America itself.

How do you sleep at night, being so un-American?
________
LovelyWendie99 (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[ranxer]

many protests are easily wrecked by a few people against the protesers getting into the group and throwing things.. even the police have been known to have officers dressed to look like protestors and starting a riot.

its pretty scary that the patriot act and homeland security have put aside due process by declaring anyone gathering to oppose profit as economic terrorists, thereby giving up thier rights.
all it takes is one rock thrown for the police to start firing into the the crowd and causing mayhem for anyone present.

as far as paid protesters goes, ive read that the clear channel group is the largest funder of pro-war rallies, the anti-war rallies are grassroots groups with virtually no money.. they organize a rally and try to get the word out with almost no money and the clearchannel groups organize an opposing rally then blitz the papers and tv with paid advertising to make it look like the anti-war folks are just gathering in response to pro-war/pro-troops folks. big money wins the media battle too often :(

[Jeanette X]

It's pretty obvious that they were breaking the law. Are you saying that they were not?

Of course they were. But it doesn't justify excessive use of force.
Do you know what excessive use of force is? Its quiz time Ronnie.

[Ronnie Raygun]

Uhhh. I think you have me confused with someone else. I'm not a judge.

I do have a right however to voice my opinion.

[Protoclown]

Why, that sounds an awful lot like judging someone before they are given the fair and speedy trial to which they are entitled. Which shows your hatred of two Constitutional Amendments, and therefore America itself.

Not only that, Spad, but judging people like that sounds awfully un-Christian to me as well. Hrmm....

And Ronnie, you keep saying that "we" were "wrong about the war". In what way were we wrong about the war?

I am against the war. I don't care if Saddam is sitting on the biggest nuke ever made, I think the situation could have been handled differently. So I am personally against it. I support our troops, but not the government that put them there. I'm not saying that there won't be any good to come from the resolution, it's certainly possible. I'd just prefer we handled ourselves a little better in the diplomatic arena before any of this stuff got out of hand.

So in what way am I "wrong" about the war? I am certain you won't answer me, but I'll ask anyway.

[Ronnie Raygun]

Well, that's easy.

You people were saying that it was going to be like another Vietman. Vietnam lasted 10 years. .... .this war lasted 20 days....

You people said terrorist attackes were going to happen after we went into Iraq....they didn't.

You said there would be thousands upon thousands of Americans casualties.....you were way off.

You people said that there would be 10's of thousands of Iraqi civilians dead........again, way off.

You said we were only in it for the oil........this is proven to be a lazy and a bit off target.

You people said that the Turks were going to invade from the North.......they didn't.

....and there is more to come.

[mburbank]

"I hope to see more of this"
-Naldo.

I find that a repulsive response to seeing that picture, devoid of the most basic human compassion. Whatever took place, viewing those wounds and responding that you 'hope to see more' refelcts fairly poorly on you as a human being, especially one who claims a relationship with Jesus. You're response?


"HAHAHA!

You people are falling apart because it's so evident that you were wrong about the war and that things are going well for the administration and even better...the country. "
-Naldo

I promise you my current reaction has nothing whatever to do with this war or any. It is a deep seated revulsion at your reaction to those wounds. I assume when you look at the corpses of Iraqi Soldiers you are unmoved, you hope to see more of that as well. The fact they had parents, children, the hopes and dreams one assumes even you have is utterly irelivant. You hope to see more. If they'd killed the girl in the photo, and rubber bullets can and do kill, would you hope to see more, or do those welts slake your thirst?

Here's where we differ. I am capable of looking at those wounds and thinking of how painful they must be. All you see in her and in me is the War. IF she threw rocks at the police, if anyone did, that's very, very bad. But it changes nothing about the quality her pain. Jesus gave every indication the suffering of the guilty mattered to him. Did he say of the woman taken in adultery, "Hey, no stoning, she didn't do it!" ? You give every indication the suffering of the guilty is pleasurable to you. You hope to see more.

And Sspad is right. Your asumption of guilt instead of an embrace of our judicial system which assumes innocence until guilt is proven in a court of law, is a crystal clear indication that you hate at least one thing America Stands for.

[kellychaos]

"I hope to see more of it"

Jesus, a man who willingly allowed himself to be crucified for his opposition to authority and who's civil disobedience often crossed lthe legal boundaries of his time, would be ashamed of you.

If Jesus never lived and Socrates was the new martyr for those principles, would there be a new religion with the morter and pestel as it's symbol ... hmmm ... Just thinking out loud ... Carry on. :)

[Jeanette X]

Uhhh. I think you have me confused with someone else. I'm not a judge.

I do have a right however to voice my opinion.

So I take it you don't know? I'm not suprised. Well Ronnie, "excessive use of force" is when police officers use much more force than is actually neccessary to do the job.

And yes, you do have the right to voice your opinion, regardless of how ignorant it is. I am not trying to deny you that.

You people were saying that it was going to be like another Vietman. Vietnam lasted 10 years. .... .this war lasted 20 days....

The war isn't over yet. What about Tikrit?
You know Ronnie, as much as I disagree with you, I really hope that you are right about how this war will turn out. I really hope that my fears turn out to have been totally groundless. But I doubt that they will be.

[Protoclown]

Well, that's easy.
You people were saying that it was going to be like another Vietman. Vietnam lasted 10 years. .... .this war lasted 20 days....

I never said that. And this war is not over yet. Mostly over, I'll grant you that, but as long as there are still casualties mounting on both sides it matters a great deal to me.

You people said terrorist attackes were going to happen after we went into Iraq....they didn't.

Once again I see you are looking in your crystal ball and divining the future. If I'm not mistaken, tomorrow and all days beyond it take place AFTER WE WENT INTO IRAQ. I still fear that there will be terror attacks that result from this. It took nearly a DECADE for September 11th to happen and you're saying that because it's been two weeks we're in the clear?? Are you that fucking naive?

You said there would be thousands upon thousands of Americans casualties.....you were way off.

Nope, never said that. Liar. This one you attributed to me, not just "you people". I'll grant that you probably left off the "people" accidentally, but I don't belong to some group where I simply parrot everything they want me to. That would be what you're doing. I lament the fact that there were ANY American casualties, but before you get all upset, it's not a reaction born of shock and surprise. Yes, I do realize that people die in wars. That doesn't make it suck any less however.

You people said that there would be 10's of thousands of Iraqi civilians dead........again, way off.

Once again, I never said that. Here's a question though. How many thousands have to die before you give a crap about them?

You said we were only in it for the oil........this is proven to be a lazy and a bit off target.

I'll grant you that this is the closest one to being true. I never said we were ONLY in it for the oil, but I came damn close to saying it. I don't think the reasoning behind our going in there was so simple, there were a lot of factors playing into the decision. But if you don't think the oil had a LOT to do with it, I would question your intelligence.

You people said that the Turks were going to invade from the North.......they didn't.
....and there is more to come.

I never said that one either. But it could still happen.

So we're back to square one again. I want to hear about how I, PROTOCLOWN, AM PERSONALLY WRONG about this war. Don't tell me about how the Democrats are wrong (I'm not one), don't tell me about how the liberals are wrong, don't tell me about how "you people" are wrong. My views cannot be so easily categorized.

I want to know how I am wrong about the war. Which you have yet to tell me.

[mburbank]

Let's hope he does a better job than demonstrating I hate what America Stands For.

Or deciding wether he or W are wrong about Jesus being a Political Philosipher.

Or admitting it was stupid to post that "Smoking WMD" article so fast and that he was wrong to emotionally invest in it or that he posted the article for a reason.

Or facing the fact that his "I hope to see more of this" moment was shaefully ugly, base and SO far from any Christian morality he might as well call himslef a Friggin' Zoroastrian for all the sense it would make.

Or admitting that I have lots of reason to dislike him that are way ahead of some sort of "My Team Lost" sour grapes inanity he thinks I think about the War (Which is the only way he's able to think of it)

Or posting that stupid ass nonexistant submarine letter.

Oh, wait, that's the other objectionable sub human.

Get it? 'Sub' human?

[Protoclown]

It made me laugh when you called him Namor :(

[Ronnie Raygun]

"Let's hope he does a better job than demonstrating I hate what America Stands For."

Free speech.

"Or deciding wether he or W are wrong about Jesus being a Political Philosipher."

Where is the transcript where Bush said that. The sources you gave contradicted each other.

"Or admitting it was stupid to post that "Smoking WMD" article so fast and that he was wrong to emotionally invest in it or that he posted the article for a reason."

I didn't write the article. Not my words.




"Or facing the fact that his "I hope to see more of this" moment was shaefully ugly, base and SO far from any Christian morality he might as well call himslef a Friggin' Zoroastrian for all the sense it would make."

Sorry Max, Justice is a good thing and I hope to see more. I'm sorry you disagree but I'm not surprised.

"Or admitting that I have lots of reason to dislike him that are way ahead of some sort of "My Team Lost" sour grapes inanity he thinks I think about the War (Which is the only way he's able to think of it)"

I'm only going by your own words.

"Or posting that stupid ass nonexistant submarine letter."\

I don't know what you're talking about.

[The_Rorschach]

Ronnie, you're such a fucking weasel sometimes. Is it so hard to admit you might have erred? Being a Christian doesn't make you as omnipotent as God himself, or any who oppose your views heretical heathens.

Burbank: "Or deciding wether he or W are wrong about Jesus being a Political Philosipher."
Ronnie: "Where is the transcript where Bush said that. The sources you gave contradicted each other."

IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. Before even reading the transcipts you started defending Bush's supposed statement, and, furthermore, asserted you agreed with it personally. WHO CARES IF HE SAID IT. YOU AGREED TO IT ANYWAY. Does it somehow make your agreement with the thought that Jesus was a political philospher invalid if Bush didn't say it first? Is there a hand up your ass making you talk?

I, personally, believe Christ's teachings can have political implications if you wish to view them in that light. To wit:

Jesus counseled nonviolence and resisted violent reciprocity even when undertaking the sufferage of crufication. Can this not be seen as national neutrality, as Norway and Sweden maintained during World War 2?

Jesus said "Give all that you own to the poor" (Mark 14:3-7 if memory serves) Can this possibly have anything to do with taxation policies and the redistribution of wealth?

Jesus included foreigners, strangers, outcasts and the unclean in his compassion. Can this by chance carry any meaning for America's immigration policy and its responsibilities to people in other nations?

Thats just off the top of my head Ronnie. I swear, sometimes I can't help but think you're a character designed to make conservatives look two dimensional and fanatics for ignorance.

[Jeanette X]

"Let's hope he does a better job than demonstrating I hate what America Stands For."

Free speech.
Free speech? No shit Sherlock. You keep saying that whenever someone criticizes you. Idiot, do you think free speech means you can't be criticized?

Sorry Max, Justice is a good thing and I hope to see more. I'm sorry you disagree but I'm not surprised.

You ass. Excessive use of force is not justice. Justice is not to be decided by police, it is to be decided by courts. The police do not decide who is innocent and who is guilty.

[Vibecrewangel]

"Let's hope he does a better job than demonstrating I hate what America Stands For."

Free speech.


Now, EXPLAIN IT.

How is Max against free speech?

[VinceZeb]

Nice to see that the hebe took some time off reading the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and sucking the bone marrow out of little Arab and Christian children's bones to insult me.

[mburbank]

Hebe should be capitalized. And you're right. It was nice. The rest of your comment just seemed forced. Sorry, Ronnie is still more repulsive than you right now.

Jeanette. He'll never do more than Post 'free speech' because he is constitutionally unable to admit he's wrong. I responded to his witless charge more than once, even demonstrating that I personally view free speech to be more important than the seperation of church and state and that while personally I think it would be a poor idea, I would support the legal right to prayer in school as long as all and any prayer were allowed. Naldo got all confused and asked us to believe he would support Satanist prayer in school if there were Satanist students.

Ronnies take on Jesus was that "He was not into Politics". I said this put him at Odds with W, and posted multiple sources, which did indeed view the (and report) the quote differently, but all agreed that Bush had meant he saw Jesus as his favorite Political philosipher. PEGGY NOONAN, a complete W psycophant, is on public record as thinking that's what he meant and chalking it up to poor debating skills. As if I hadn't done enough work for Ronnie, I then finally found and posted an article with actual verbatim text and the order of who said what. I offered him multiple interpretations, I even went so far as to include one that would allow Ronnie to save face with Bush taking the question as being about thought in general as opposed to political thought. Not only did I not get a thank you for doing his research for him, I didn't even get a response. He'd already decided his answer to the question was that I hadn't given him anything to answer. He hasn't even weighed in on what he thinks W thinks, or what he himself thinks, let alone if there's a disagreement there. Pretty stubborn coming from a man who claims to be open to questions.

"I didn't write the article. Not my words"
I think we all agree there. The question is, why did you post it? Your current answer "Just bringing the news to I-mockery" is ridiculous. You chose to post it, this choice surely shows something as it was not a random selection, and you don't have the strength of character to comment because it might reveal something about you as a person. But you'll just say "I didn't write the article. Not my words" and pretend you think it's a response.

"Sorry Max, Justice is a good thing and I hope to see more. "
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realized you just meant generic Justice as opposed to the welts shown in those photos. And you were just sort of randomly commenting out of context on your love of justice and not supporting the execution of justice by an armed police force as opposed to the judiciary. 'Cause that would be, you know, hating something America stands for. I apologize for misunderstanding you. I'm sure it has nothing to do with you either horrendously mistating your case, backpeddling or just being a very heartless, uncaring person.

"I'm only going by your own words. "

I'm sorry, Nalds, which word would those be speciffically? I mean, I hate to ask you to do some work, but in context, IE me disliking you for who you are as opposed to some poor sportsmanship regarding war, what words are you thinking of here? Espcially since my dislike of you predates the war. Come up with an example. Unless you're lying.

"Or posting that stupid ass nonexistant submarine letter."
-Me

"I don't know what you're talking about."
-Naldo

Big shock. Of course, you would if you
A.) Read this message board instead of just posting on it.
or
B.) Read the paragraph you took that quote from and parsed the meaning from it by using the verbs and subjects.
or
C.) Had a sense of humor more developed than a Marine Gelly.


And Proto. I knew you'd get my joke. It was for you. Heart eyes pulsing emoticon.

[GothNAPrepsBody]

I feel that they should have been broken up and that they knew that that was comming but i wonder was it realy necessary

Lets take a moment of silence for them.... :(




Okay time to get high. :)

[Protoclown]

I would shoot you with a rubber bullet.