My atheist friend

[Goat Cheese]

How do I answer this question posed by my atheist friend.

what proof is there to justify belief in God?

I tell you the truth he's got me stumped there.

[Esuohlim]

Yeah but what proof is there to justify disbelief in God? :o

There's a very long and interesting thread about this somewhere in the Philosophy forum I believe

[kahljorn]

probably.

proof for God: Summa Theologica by St. Thomas Aquinas :O
i think the five ways is in the summa theologica thing

[Yggdrasill]

Wow your friend is smart why can't he answer his own damn question.

[Goat Cheese]

atheism only gives people the illusion of intelligence.

[CaptainBubba]

Guys it is time to finally solve this.

We're going to save the world.

[Sethomas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klOQwSMdI70

That's my thought on the matter.

[Emu]

I AM AN ATHEIST AND I AM OFFENDED BY YOUR SLURS I WILL SUE.

[Emu]

Yeah but what proof is there to justify disbelief in God? :o

There's a very long and interesting thread about this somewhere in the Philosophy forum I believe

there's these two

http://www.i-mockery.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19562&highlight=the+new+atheism

http://www.i-mockery.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23045&highlight=the+new+atheism

DON'T YOU LOVE IT WHEN I DO THE SEARCHING FOR YOU THAT PROVES THAT ATHEISTS AREN'T BAD GUYS HAHA LET'S HAVE LUNCH OKAY.

[El Blanco]

It is a belief. Proof is kind of sketchy when we come to beliefs.

Summa Theologica and City of God are both good works from a philosophy standpoint.

However, when most people say "proof". they mean something they can measure.

[DuFresne]

Thanks for making that video, Seth! It was nice to finally know what you sound like. I was kinda disappointed in the lack of a bowtie, though. :(

[Sethomas]

If you look at my other videos, I generally wear them. :picklehat

[Dixie]

I love you Seth! :love

[FartinMowler]

Smash him on the finger with a hammer and when he screams "Oh God that hurt" you smack him upside the head with a Bible.

[theapportioner]

You're all asking the wrong question.

Who cares if god exists or not?? The right question is--is god relevant to us? Is there an afterlife or continued existence? I would contend that it is absolutely ABSURD to believe that an afterlife of sorts exists.

[Sethomas]

I actually agree, thus a few years ago I had this phase where I believed in God but not the soul so I stopped paying any attention to religion and such.

I do agree that most popular notions of the afterlife are pretty absurd, but I think that doesn't preclude the possibility of something that's probably incomprehensible. If there is post-mortem consciousness, I doubt it resembles people dancing in white robes in clouds while others burn in lakes of boiling oil for ever and ever and ever in saeculo saeculorum. I think existence itself is pretty absurd in itself, so what harm is a little faith that maybe some experience of the self pervades after death? Well, it CAN be harmful when you believe in a reward of 72 virgins or whatever, but still.

[Yggdrasill]

I could barely handle the last 3 virgins I uhm, 'dated'. 72 would be hell for me.

[Preechr]

I actually agree, thus a few years ago I had this phase where I believed in God but not the soul so I stopped paying any attention to religion and such.

I do agree that most popular notions of the afterlife are pretty absurd, but I think that doesn't preclude the possibility of something that's probably incomprehensible. If there is post-mortem consciousness, I doubt it resembles people dancing in white robes in clouds while others burn in lakes of boiling oil for ever and ever and ever in saeculo saeculorum. I think existence itself is pretty absurd in itself, so what harm is a little faith that maybe some experience of the self pervades after death? Well, it CAN be harmful when you believe in a reward of 72 virgins or whatever, but still.

I like to think that God exists in the electrical bonds that hold everything together. Physics helps us to understand how everything we can sense takes shape, but God's will, God itself, is why any particular particle bonds with another, and another with another... so on... to form us and all the other crap in the universe. When we die, whatever it is that we call our soul disperses back out into the energy holding everything together.

It's not as complicated as most organized versions of spirituality, but it's simple.

[kahljorn]

I wrote a paper as to how part of the purpose of God is to hold the universe together, and without god the universe woudl disappear. It was loosely based on the five ways and that the universe is actually God or what god has designed. He's a sort of sustainer.

[Sethomas]

Those are both variants of Occasionalistic Pantheism. :ReligiousStudiesMajor

[kahljorn]

I thought that said alcoholic panism and i was like, "man those crazy drunken pan-dionysuses"

so what does that come from? Berkley? Berkley is the one who wrote that God is the "Person who hears trees fall down in forests when nobody is listening." Seems pretty similar, overall.
I'll probably look it up.
I liked my paper better :O

[Sethomas]

Occasionalism is from al-Ghazali and Malebranche, Pantheism is more like Spinoza.

[FartinMowler]

Spinoza supported himself by grinding optical lenses, an occupation that probably contributed to the consumption that killed him

what killed him?

[mozz]

Well theres no 'absolute' proof on scientific theorys eg: The big bang. Although, there is quite alot of evidence going that way. I'm agnostic, covered both ways i guess.

[Sethomas]

If they say that glass-grinding killed him, it was probably from inhaling glass particles and developing lung infections.

[kahljorn]

I'm probably going to get some books by him soon.

[Colewolf]

Personally I think you sould just believe what you want. If you are an aetheist then good for you. If you do partake of some religon, keep it up just do nto try and push your views down everyones throat because you think it is right one. I acctually am a christian but I do not go around saying my god is better than your god/goddess/non existant being. So please do not do it either. All that it does is make people want to slap the shit out of you.

I will end this with a joke. It just seemed to fit the topic, not to mock it.

What is the worst part about sex for an aetheist?

No one to scream to when they have an orgasm.

[kahljorn]

man that was moving

[FartinMowler]

Spinoza held, so genuine freedom (http://www.philosophypages.com/dy/f9.htm#free) comes only with knowledge of what it is that necessitates our actions. Recognizing the invariable influence of desire over our passionate natures, we then strive for the peace of mind that comes through an impartial attachment to reason. Although such an attitude is not easy to maintain, Spinoza concluded that "All noble things are as difficult as they are rare."

:\ I dunno these guy's seem full of shit to me.

[kahljorn]

I want to read spinoza's double-aspect theory.

[Emu]

I decree that everyone who has not attended college must leave this thread

[Colewolf]

No thanks, I will stay and state my opinion.

[kahljorn]

More like you will stay and fart your fat ugly opinion out your retarded large and full of boogery nose and while you fart your opinion out of your nose little boogers will come with it and nobody will care about it.

[Colewolf]

I resent that! My nose is not fat.

[ItalianStereotype]

he didn't say your nose was fat, just that it was large and boogery and prone to farting. if you didn't have such a huge jew honker eating your face, maybe you could've read that.

[adept_ninja]

there is no way one can prove the existance of god but the closest i can give you is in the Koran it has many scientific facts that there was no way Muhammad could have known, the man could barely read. If you care more about it i will post some of these facts.

[DuFresne]

I'm interested. :)

[Grislygus]

I'd like to hear about this, can't say that I've read the thing.

[kahljorn]

There's "Scientific Facts" in all religions.

Spinoza held, so genuine freedom (http://www.philosophypages.com/dy/f9.htm#free) comes only with knowledge of what it is that necessitates our actions. Recognizing the invariable influence of desire over our passionate natures, we then strive for the peace of mind that comes through an impartial attachment to reason.

What is so full of shit about that? Isn't he just saying that there are outside influences over your actions and that by realizing them (the influences of our actions/thoughts) we can propagate a healthier state of mind?

It's like if you were born into an extreme racist family 100 years and you one day found out that racism actually isn't necessary and might even be wrong.

[theapportioner]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPHnXrU5JzU&NR

[DuFresne]

That black woman was my favorite:
"I don't care what you choose to believe or not to believe, but don't take away my constitutional right to combine church and state!"
:lol

[Sethomas]

Seriously, my Atheism video got the #60 most replies today for some reason. Lots of pissed-off atheists acting all ANGRY over what I had to say. They didn't seem to care that I had nothing against atheism. Ah well!

[The One and Only...]

Atheism is only appreciable when taken as an absolute. No god found anywhere - be it in religion, ethics, precepts, or even the human race.

[Emu]

Isn't that kind of the definition of atheism? If you believe in a god "anywhere," you're not an atheist.


BY THE WAY, apparently there was a follow-up to that [/URL][URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPHnXrU5JzU&NR"]Paula Zahn Embarassment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPHnXrU5JzU&NR) where they actually had not one but (gasp) two atheists on the show to talk about atheist issues. Notably, none of the original panel (including Zahn herself) were on the follow-up.

I can't find a video link to it right now tho :(

[liquidstatik]

GOD ISN'T REAL SHUT UP

[DuFresne]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-jjDLKMswM

I doubt this is exactly what you're looking for, Emu, but it is a response to that incident on the Paula Zahn show.

[sloth]

Kahl, you should definitely read Spinoza's 'Ethics'. That and Jung definitely made me think twice about agnosticism.

[kahljorn]

I'm definitley looking to get a copy soon.

what did you read by Jung?

[sloth]

'Archetypes and the Unconscious' and 'Answer to Job' for my dissertation but to be honest the majority of stuff i've read is secondary literature. I have deadlines :( I'd love to work through his collected works, though. He's a bit of a dirty word nowadays but i've always wondered why so many people believe in God and why it's so satisfying when they do, and he's pretty convincing on both counts.

[adept_ninja]

rather then look through all the passages again i found a site that includes some of the facts included in the koran. Some of them are a bit far fetched but others dont really have an explanation.

http://www.islam-guide.com/