Comedy ethics

[mburbank]

Is there any topic it's not okay to make jokes about?

[El Blanco]

Hmmmm. Are all topics in good taste? No. But, personally, I never take anything said in humor seriously. As long as its in good fun, just make sure its funny. If you waste my time with a shitty joke, its your ass.

[ItalianStereotype]

silly max, you make anything funny. :)

except that whole thing with you, my mother, and the sweaty irishman. that was a bit much sodomy for my comedic taste. :/

[mburbank]

That was no joke, that was love.

[The_Rorschach]

Whats the secret to comedy?

[The_Rorschach]

TIMING!

[Protoclown]

Definitely don't make any jokes about religion. That kind o' shit makes motherfuckers fly motherfuckin' planes into motherfuckin' buildings 'n shit.

And don't you make no jokes about my momma.

And don't you make no jokes about any shit I don't find funny. >:

THIS IS SERIOUS :(

[sadie]

i already answered this question in another thread quite some time ago.

[El Blanco]

Definitely don't make any jokes about religion. That kind o' shit makes motherfuckers fly motherfuckin' planes into motherfuckin' buildings 'n shit.

And don't you make no jokes about my momma.

And don't you make no jokes about any shit I don't find funny. >:

THIS IS SERIOUS :(

Yo momma is so fat, she's fatter than that statue of the fat ass fuck Budha she worships. And then you told a really bad joke.

[sspadowsky]

I say anything is fair game, as long as you can be creative about it. I honestly think, if you approach it correctly, you can make just about anything funny. George Carlin had a very funny bit about rape several years back. Bill Hicks did a bit that started with, "Doesn't Rush Limbaugh strike you as one of those gay guys that likes to lay in a tub while other men pee on him?" that was hilarious. Stomach-turning, but unique and very funny.

As Lenny Bruce once said, "You don't need a government to tell you when you've gone too far. There's no greater deterrent for a comedian than stone silence."

I find it interesting that a guy who wrote a skit about a kid's show host who goes nuts and kills people would ask such a question.
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[El Blanco]

I shudder to think what he writing now if he has to pause and ask what is going to far.

[VinceZeb]

You can pretty much joke about anything; it just depends on how you do it. That’s why I loathe Bill Hicks but love Carlin. Carlin had something to say and was genuinely humorous while all Hicks could do is bitch and be extremely vulgar. And there is nothing wrong with being vulgar, but when that is all you can do, then you get tiresome.

Hicks relied on hating what "average" people liked, and that all the guy did! What's the easiest thing to attack? Conservative values. And that’s what he did. All the time. Carlin does it to but he doesn't base his existence around it. And carlin could say things that were great, but Hicks just bitched constantly.

Hicks reminded me of the stupid kid that had to cuss and whine to get attention from his peers. He lived bitter and died bitter. He is only remembered because he died young. Carlin is loved because he knows how to be funny and has substance.

What I am trying to say is that anything is up for grabs, but say something funny. Don’t just be vile and scream about it. You will get more respect from friends and foes that way.

[Protoclown]

Actually, Bill Hicks is one of my favorite comedians and I probably never would have discovered him if not for other I-Mockers telling me about him. He's vulgar, sure, but he was a lot more than that. I really enjoyed his scathing social criticism and felt that he made a lot of good points in his bits, vulgar or not. He may have been bitter and angry, but he had a lot of good ideas. He could see through a lot of the bullshit prevalent in society and he wasn't afraid to attack it for what it was, no matter how sacred.

Same with Carlin. He's probably my favorite comedian. I am also quite fond of Lewis Black.

I don't think there is any topic that should be taboo. People take things too seriously all the time already. I admire those comedians who go out of their way to tackle "unsafe" topics and batter the hell out of them, offending and pissing off anyone and everyone they can along the way. If it just makes one person stop and look at their life and realize that maybe they take things a little too seriously then it's worth every single other person getting offended over.

[VinceZeb]

Lewis Black is my favorite comedian. Especially when he went off about the Starbucks that were across the street from each other.

[Protoclown]

He's great. I keep meaning to pick up his comedy albums. He has two if I'm not mistaken, right?

And I just thought I would point out about Bill Hicks...I think he had a lot of great ideas, but I also think he had a lot of really insane ideas. I don't agree with him on everything he said by any stretch (particularly his thoughts on drugs), but even when I find myself in disagreement with what he said, I still find myself laughing about it. And to me, that is the mark of a good comedian.

[kellychaos]

I can't think of Lewis Black without thinking of that quote:

If it wasn't for my horse I wouldn't have spent that year in college... if you think about that for more than 3 minutes blood will squirt out your nose!"
- Lewis Black

That was one of the funniest bits EVER! :lol

[mburbank]

I personally see no limmit at all. It's all in your angle of attack, your delivery, what your inent is and how skillfully you communicate it.

Meanwhile, I'm fascinated this topic has almost inmduced English in Vince.

[sadie]

i'm not sure what being inmduced entails, but i hope it's painful.

and wtf is wrong with bitching constantly?

[The_Rorschach]

On the topic of Bill Hicks, I need only one word. . .FREEEBIRD!

Truth be told, I think he had his moment, but I would favour Dennis Leary and Sam Kinnison (sp?) above him.

[sspadowsky]

Denis Leary was never 10% as funny on his best fuckin' day as Bill was on his worst. Denis completely stole from Hicks, in terms of appearance, jokes, and onstage demeanor. I remember someone asking Hicks about that once. He said something like, "Actually, it's all his material. I just fooled everyone by doing it first."

I like Leary as an actor, but as a comedian, he doesn't compare to Hicks at all.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, so I apologize for souding like a dick. I just have a great deal of respect for Hicks's work, and find it a travesty that so few people knew of him before he died.
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[FartinMowler]

personal tragedy or self loathing

[The_Rorschach]

The first time I saw Hicks was on letterman, and I grooved on him for awhile, he had some funny shit. I loved the JFK thing. But his material had a tendancy to sound preachy. Its more than just derisive commentary, its almost as though he was trying to inspire some sort of reform. Maybe I just read too much into his act, but if he honestly gave a shit, he chose the wrong fucking medium to exact social change.

As for Denis. . .No Cure For Cancer is golden. The Irish Drinking song won me over, more than anything else, but as a smoker I enjoyed the rant about cigarettes because hey, I would smoke something like Tumors. Fuck, not liking Denis because he was inspired by Hicks is like disliking Fugazi because of Minor Threat.

[mburbank]

I don't like stand up anywhere near as much as I like sketch, despite the fact that most sketch is pretty bad.

For myself, I like to write fearful meanspirited hateful characters as a means of examining all that's meanspirited hateful and fearful in life.

I'm also a fan of full commitment to character.

Prior to the invention of the term absurdism, the term of choice was Comedy of Menace. I like that way better.

[El Blanco]

A) Hicks had no right to rag on anyone for ripping him off. All his material came from Carlin

B) the only thing similar between him and Leary was demeanor. Different approaches to different material. Leary actually got the audience to identify with him. Hicks jumped up and bitched.

The best thing Hicks did for his career was get cancer.

[sspadowsky]

A) I defy you, right now, to tell me exactly how Hicks stole from Carlin. I am a huge fan of both, and I'd be very interested to see how you prove this one. Their approaches were entirely different. You may as well say that Carrot Top got his material from Lenny Bruce.

B) Hicks had a much more confrontational approach and was trying to get people to laugh while taking a good look at themselves. It's easy to get the crowd to identify with you when you can just get them to sing along with the "Asshole" song.
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[The_Rorschach]

"I'm also a fan of full commitment to character."

You know, I loved Bernie Mac in The Kings of Comedy, but I never found his show all that funny. If thats what you meant by character comedy, I agree. If you're refering more to like Fire Marshal Bill, all I can say is >:


And Sspad, damnit, the Asshole song has nothing on the Irish Drinking Song! It was the last track, with the chorus "We drink and we sing and we drink and we die and we drink some more"

[El Blanco]

How did Hicks steal from Carlin? "Government bad, religion bad" and add a bunch of cursing. Of course, Carlin had a lot more depth than Hicks.

I'm not saying that Carlin was the first to do it, but who is Hicks to accuse Leary of ripping him off?

It's easy to get the crowd to identify with you when you can just get them to sing along with the "Asshole" song.

Ya, and? He is an entertainer. He wrote a good song that gets shows jumping. He also gets people to identify with him through his stories of his upbringing. That makes him good at his job.

[sspadowsky]

Limp Bizkit gets people jumping, too. Doesn't mean they're good.

Hicks did have a "government bad, religion bad" kind of thing going on, but he did it in a very creative and original way. Which is what a good comedian does.

Oh, and Hicks isn't originally the one who accused Leary of ripping him off. I'd have to look that one up.
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UHWH (http://uhwh.com/)

[Protoclown]

Listen to Bill Hicks and Dennis Leary talking about cigarettes. Their bits sound VERY similar in some places. I'm not saying that Leary ripped Hicks off, as they were talking about the same topic (the Jim Fix part is VERY similar), but plenty of other people see it that way.

I like them both, Leary has proven to be talented and have plenty of original material even if he DID "steal" certain portions of his bits from Bill Hicks.

[El Blanco]

How many other comedians joke about smokes and drugs?

Limp Bizkit gets people jumping, too. Doesn't mean they're good.

Not all their songs do. I'll admit they suck, but if they put on good concerts that stir up the crowd, isn't that what they are supposed to do?

Hicks did have a "government bad, religion bad" kind of thing going on, but he did it in a very creative and original way.

If the George Carlin way is your idea of original, sure.

but he did it in a very creative and original way. Which is what a good comedian does.


No, a comedian makes the audience laugh. I have seen guys try "creative and original" material and suck badly. Originality does help, but it still has to be funny.

[mburbank]

I'm pretty sure comedy is subjective.

I mean, unless you're talking about Galagher outside of the context of killing him and defiling the corpse.

[AChimp]

I like Leary as an actor, but as a comedian, he doesn't compare to Hicks at all.
You have to admit that the Asshole Song is damn hilarious. At least, it is the first time you hear it. :)

[Protoclown]

When I was a kid I used to like Gallagher :(








i'm sorry :(

[Skulhedface]

I still like Gallagher >:

as far as prop comics go, he's everything Carrot Top wishes he could be :/

besides, Gallagher did have more than props...watch it again sometime :(

But Carlin is still my all time favorite comic.

[kellychaos]

What about those comedians out there that seem to have a following but whom you find unfunny. To me, Robin Williams is in that category. He's manic and he makes me nervous. No matter what accent he's attempting, it comes off Indian. His references are, at best, dated. He always forces his latest schtick on whatever talk show he happens to be on. I remember watching Leno, Conan, and some other show in one week. Williams must have had something going at the time but, my point is, he forced the same lame ass bit, word for word, into each show. It wasn't even funny the first time. The only time the spastic act kind of worked for me was when he was the voice of the "Genie" in "Aladdin" >:


P.S. Yet, at the same time, some of his performances in dramatic roles such as "the Dead Poet's Society" and "Good Will Hunting" were actually pretty good. Hmmm ... go figure. :/

[sspadowsky]

El Blanco, we'll just agree to disagree about how wrong you are. ;)

Max, I've read enough of your stuff to know that you hate Gallagher with a white-hot passion, but I'm curious to hear your reasoning. I, like Protoclown, used to like him. I have since seen the error of my ways. But I think you do a good job of explaining comedy, so that's why I ask why you hate the guy.
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[Protoclown]

I'LL BET IT'S BECAUSE HE'S A FAGET :(

[Miss Modular]

I can't speak for Max, but since when was the continuous smashing of Watermelons funny?

[El Blanco]

I think we can all agree on the greatest comic of all time:


Ellen















psych, its Pryor

[Miss Modular]

Ellen can be funny. Granted, she's no George Carlin, but she can still crack a joke or two, especially now since she's split with "Celestia".

[mburbank]

I'd have to actually go back and watch any of his non prop stuff to recall it enough to comment on it, but here's what I hate about his prop stuff.

No damn joke.

I saw him do a thing with a giant couch, and all the jokes boiled down to:
"LOOK AT THAT COUCH! IT'S BIG! IT'S BIGGER THAN IT OUT TO BE! IF I FIND STUFF BETWEEN THE CUSHIONS OR UNDER THAT YOU MIGHT FINDIN OR UNDER A COUCH, THEY'LL BIG BIG TO! WOAH! LOOK AT THIS QUARTER! IT'S BIGGER THAN A REGULAR QUARTER WOULD BE IN DIRECT PROPORTION TO THE COUCH!"

The peak of this 'look at this thing' schtick? He had a doll of a fat woman on a long pole hat he waved over the audience. It was rigged to drop little doll poops out it's ass, while Gallagher yelled

"LOOK OUT! I'VE GOT A FAT BITCH ON A STICK! SHE'LL POOP ON YOU! SHE'LL POOP ON YOU!"

Now admiytedly, that sounds funny. And it could have been done by a comedian who was either committed to the insanity of the moment (say Andy Kaufman) or invested in what was going on with audience expectations at that moment (like David Cross) but I honestly felt nothing happening beyond.

"I'VE GOT A FAT BITCH ON A STICK! SHE'LL POOP ON YOU! SHE'LL POOP ON YOU!"

He thought the prop was funny. He has always thought getting stuff on his audience is funny. He used the prop. I find him to be canned outrageousness, all surface, no content.

'LOOK, I'M OUTRAGEOUS! YOU CAN TELL BECUASE OF THE OUTRAGEOUS THING I'M DOING RIGHT NOW!'

[Anonymous]

I think the show Strangers With Candy is a perfect example of how you can make funny jokes about anything

[mburbank]

"Retardation: a Celebration. Narrated by Wilford Brimley"

[VinceZeb]

Strangers With Candy was great.

The Upright Citizens Brigade was pefect. Especially the virtual reality Matrix episode and THUNDERBALL.

Mother fucking Thunderball ruled. I wuld have to spend years typing about how much it ruled.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Mother fucking Thunderball ruled. I wuld have to spend years typing about how much it ruled.

Please do......

[kellychaos]

As far as sketch comedy goes: "Kids In The Hall" anyone? :)

[The_Rorschach]

>:

[mburbank]

Kids in the hall was great. And Vince. How does a total tool like you even begin to appreciatte strangers with Candy. You're practically a friggin character on the show you're so two dimensional.

[Anonymous]

my thoughts exactly max

[VinceZeb]

I'm suprised you could appreciate any of those shows. Especially since SWC didn't have a good market share since it was pared against the late 90's wrestling boom. I mean, for a covetous Jew such as yourself, the poor ad revenue must have made you want to buy some comfort food bagels!


Sorry, but Vince isn't a tool. Maybe if you would stop trying to swindle the IRS out of it's deserved tax dollars maybe you would see that I am not just a right-wing zealot. But I guess the only people that can truly "understand" humor are netgeeks and museum workers, huh Max?

[sspadowsky]

I noticed he's busting out the "Jew" thing pretty consistently now. Repetition. Not only that, he's referring to himself in the third person. Sure signs of dementia. I'd lay off him, now, Max. The guy obviously needs some professional help, and is beginning to crack.
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CHILDREN WELLBUTRIN (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/wellbutrin/)

[VinceZeb]

He wants to make generalizations; I'll make them as well. Very simple; simple enough for even you to understand.

[sspadowsky]

No, I'd say there's a big difference between picking on someone because they're a moron (your case), and picking on someone because of their heritage. One way is funny, and the other way is not. I'll give you a hint: It's the "Jew" thing that isn't funny. At least, not the way you're doing it.
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[VinceZeb]

Keep on saying I am a moron. It must be a nice big security blanket for you, to project yourself onto others who are obviously your superior.

[sspadowsky]

Well, not everyone can be a 500-lb would-be submarine commander, but I do what I can.
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[VinceZeb]

I don't weigh 500lbs and it wasn't to command a sub. So when you can think of something a bit more funny, give it another try.

[glowbelly]

well, not everyone can be a middle-sized, once overweight, right wing white man with a horrible grasp of the english language and a knack for turning the simplest sentences into utter muckity muck.

[VinceZeb]

Isn't there a house you should be cleaning or a meal you should be cooking, glow?

[kellychaos]

No, I'd say there's a big difference between picking on someone because they're a moron (your case), and picking on someone because of their heritage. One way is funny, and the other way is not. I'll give you a hint: It's the "Jew" thing that isn't funny. At least, not the way you're doing it.

Hey now! Wait just a cotton-picking minute ... somebody's got to step in to defend against moron descrimination here ... Oh crap, even I can't even keep a straight face defending Vinnie ... and I had something really funny to say too ... really ... I'll be back. :)

[Protoclown]

GLOWBELLY MADE ME LOL :lol

[mburbank]

I think the Jew thing is Hillarious, because
A.) I'm a jew. So it's funny right away, becuase he's saying something that is true and he isn't wrong, two things that always make something funny

B.) He's running out a series of tired stereotypes to which he adds nothing. Why are they tired? Because they've been around a long time so they must be pretty funny otherwise they'd have gone away. And if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

C.) It's IRONIC! Because as Vince has told us many times, he's very tolerant person who shows it by calling anything he doesn't like 'pussy', always mentioning the ethnicity of his 'girlfriends', bragging about touching breasts, constantly questioning other peoples manliness and making pretty much the same Jew joke over and over and over. If that's not IRONIC, it could only be a SHAMEFUL LACK OF SELF AWARENESS, and that would hardly be funny at all, except in a 'pay a quarter, see the freak' kind of way.


I mean, when you think about it, it's kind of weak the way I make fun of things speciffic to Vince himself and things he's actually said. It's just a cover for not having some sort of blanket sweeping generalization I could mock with pre chewed japes. If only Vince were black or homosexual! There are so many great things to say about blacks and homosexuals. Sigh. I should probably spend more time focusing on his communication disorders and learning disabilities.

[Miss Modular]

You know, Max, maybe it's time for you to adopt a pet name for Vince the way you've adopted "Naldo" for Raygun. Show 'em who's boss.

[VinceZeb]

Blah blah blah, Max. I go with the Jew angle because I don't really respect or care about your existance. Your not worth enough to think out a good insult. But I would not have insulted you if you wouldn't have tried to be cute with me first. And I like being an asshole on this tired little board. It's fun. Sorry if I make someone feel bad or think of me in a negative light. I care about as much as the length of Max's hooded dick. So about 2 inches.

[mburbank]

That's a swell angle, Vince, but unconvincing.

See, unless I'm mistaken, there's isn't anyone here "worth enough to think out a good insult." (GOD, I love the way you write! 'Think out'! You're priceless!)

So you won't ever write anything funny here, or a good insult , or more than a few complete sentences.

Since the only way we 'experience' you is through your posts, that means that despite your schoolboy boasting, you won't even back up anything you've said about yourself. You'll continue, supposedly due to our lack of worth, to continue to post like an unfunny, English as a Second Language Student.

Come one, Vince. I challenge you. This won't be anywhere near as hard as your imaginary submarine letter. Write something funny in English. It doesn't have to be about me, it could be about anything!
Unless of course your roomate through away your brain the lat tim he was cleaning.

[kellychaos]

You know, Max, maybe it's time for you to adopt a pet name for Vince the way you've adopted "Naldo" for Raygun. Show 'em who's boss.

Max already OWNS Vince ... Max knows it ... You Know it ... I know it. In fact, the only one that doesn't know it is Vince. That's the funny part, really. Consequently, a pet name would just be superfluous ... and possibly in violation of a few ACLU regulations. Even the Vinces of the world deserve protection ... from themselves if nothing else. :)

[mburbank]

Laws, Kelly, I work for a non profit, I hardly own anything, certainly not Vince. If I did own him I'd lay him on an old, stained beach blanket on my lawn the first nice Saturday that came along with an old Snackmaster, some cast off McDonalds toys, a broken lamp, a half finished sad clown paint by numbers kit and little handwritten "Anything here for a quarter" sign.

If by sundown he was still there, I'd roll up the blanket and shove it in the grabage.

[VinceZeb]

Max, I'm not trying to impress you. So frankly, your opinions mean shit to me. You are nothing more than entertainment for the periods of time I need filled. If you really tout the fact that you "own" me, you are petty fucking pathetic and it just proves once again that you live in a la-la liberal land.

I mean, come on Max, do you actually know people in the real world. You work in a non-profit (i.e. Cant make money) museum! And you try to come off as better than me? Wow. You must have big brass balls to go along with your 2 inch dick. There is no angle, Max, and you just can't accept that. This world goes bye-bye if I don't log in or don't turn on my computer. We all CHOOSE to be here. I choose to provoke idiots and laugh at them at a second-rate humor site. Wow, I don't care enough about typing nice long eloquent sentences on a message board! Man, I must be a dork. I like some of the shows you do, so how can a "tool" like me appreciate them!

Max, you are a fucking elitist prick who deserves to have the teeth in your mouth knocked into your stomach. To me who are nothing but a humor piece and you just prove why people like you would die in the real world. Want to talk shit about me, Max? Go work for a real business and have to perform a real job. Function with the average people of society. See, I do those things. And I know how people think and react. Get a nice big dose of reality. That is why I say I pitty your family, because if you are like this off this board, then you are going to raise another dumbass child who dosen't deserve to have an opinon let alone vote in elections.

And kelly, if I wanted your opinon, Id take my dick out of your mouth.

[kellychaos]

If you love a Vince ... set him free ... if he returns spewing viscous bile, he is YOURS ... if not, he never was. :)

[mburbank]

Vince, you can read, can't you? I said, in English, I DON'T own you.

Now, my saying I DON'T could be missunderstood as:

"If you really tout the fact that you "own" me, you are petty fucking pathetic and it just proves once again that you live in a la-la liberal land. "

but only if you are a very dumb guy.

"Want to talk shit about me, Max? Go work for a real business and have to perform a real job."

I'm sorry, honey, didn't you say you worked for a college?

Are you trying to get me all hot and bothered with your talk of 'functioning' in the 'real world'? The guy who doesn't own a house, isn't married, doesn't have and support children? I'm sorry, Vince, but going to strip shows isn't a HUGE marker of your coping skills. Come on, now, put up or shut up. Tell me all about the massive responsabilities you carry out each and every day that makes you such an authority of the 'real world'. Tell me things you 'know', tell me about this 'real world' you inhabit that I don't, because I'm getting the vibe tht you have some pretty impressive stories to tell. Come on, THRILL ME!

I mean, you know, unless your all busy daydreaming about Kelly blowing you. I wouldn't want to distract you before the big moment.

[VinceZeb]

I work in a PRIVATE school, Max. This means that if we don’t make money, we die off. Unlike the govt schools you were educated in. If I don't do a good job, my ass is canned. Simple as that.

I don't want to own a house, I'm only 22 so Id rather not get married, and it would be very stupid of me right now to have a child. That is called having responsibility, stupid. I choose not to have unprotected sex that would produce a child I could not take care of. I choose not to buy a house know I could not afford it.

I don't have impressive stories to tell, Max. I just have been around people enough to know what the average American feels and knows. It's called having a brain, Max.

Like the quote says "If you are under 30 and a conservative you have no heart. If you are over 30 and a liberal you have no brain."

Guess I'm heartless and you, Max, are close to or are already brainless.

[kellychaos]

Vince, you can read, can't you? I said, in English, I DON'T own you.

Nope ... I said THAT. < Kellychaos pats his own back >



"If you really tout the fact that you "own" me, you are petty fucking pathetic and it just proves once again that you live in a la-la liberal land. "

but only if you are a very dumb guy.


There's the clincher! :)


I mean, you know, unless your all busy daydreaming about Kelly blowing you. I wouldn't want to distract you before the big moment.

One can only see it as projection ... we all KNOW who the real target of his affections are Max. :love

[mburbank]

Aren't private schools for elitist pricks? See, I know, because I went to one. That's how I got my elitist prick credentials. Then I went to a private college where I got my degree. Do you have one a them there things or is that too elitist for you? Private school, or state shool? Who paid?

"I don't want to own a house, I'm only 22 so Id rather not get married, and it would be very stupid of me right now to have a child. That is called having responsibility, stupid. I choose not to have unprotected sex that would produce a child I could not take care of. I choose not to buy a house know I could not afford it."

Lovely. So. Compared to me, who does all those things, what exactly are the massive responsabilities you adress in the real world. Cable, phone and rent?

"I just have been around people enough to know what the average American feels and knows. It's called having a brain, Max. "

Well, golly. I've been around a lot of folks. I'm not sure exactly what the average American is, people having such widely varied personalities. More than half the people who voted didn't vote for Bush. Does that mean the average American wanted Gore. I think being able to write sentgences is more indicative of having a barin than feeling some connection to 'average' Americans.

Oh, I forgot something. The non profit I work for? Boston's second largest tourist attraction. Only Fanueil Hall beats us for traffic. Tough economic times, but we do okay. We might even be more financially succsesful than a private school. Not that financial success measures worth. I'm just saying, tough guy. Simple as that.