The Problem of Evil

[MattJack]

Link (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evil/)

Yea so anyways does anyone know much about this? I mean, obviously the link provides tons of information. I just have a queer essay, and so I'm trying to look for other rebuttals to the original argument that are sound and make sense.

[kahljorn]

Nietzsche talks about the death of god from the problem of goods that can never be achieved.


Aquinas' rebuttle to to the problem of evil is that god is so good that he creates good out of evil or something like that.

i think an interesting approach with nietzsche might be that he doesnt really think there are good and evil, because good and evil is all relative to the person. So maybe gods nature of good is so above us that the presence of evil is somehow a part of it or some crap. Basically, what's good and evil to humans might be completely different than what's good and evil to god. god might not even see good and evil, they could be nonexistant to him. there's a couple of things on that page that look like they are getting at that.
However, i dont even think god has inclinations towards good or evil in the first place, thats kind of silly! If anything, it could be that the problem of evil proves that god doesn't exist as a good god in the way we think he is good.

[MattJack]

Yea I agree with the notion of "what is evil?" Like you said, it is relative to the person, but with that said I think there are some things most everyone would and could consider evil. Such as how did God allow the holocaust to happen, or smallpox, or simply being born into complete poverty where there is no way to escape.

My argument is a simple one that I believe is in that link. I believe that the problem of evil doesn't disprove God's existence and that I think that God has no moral obligation to us as humans. I think that God can still be completely omnipotent, and yet not give a shit about us in the slightest. We simply could be a toy or play thing.

[kahljorn]

beyond good and evil and a geneology of morals are the two books on this subject in case you dont know

[kahljorn]

you could end your paper with, "God doesn't give a damn about me (ho ho ho) and i don't give a hoot about him! as it should be"

[kahljorn]

didn't the nazis think they were doing the RIGHT thing?

i dont know most of the time i wonder what evil even is or if it exists.

in order to say something is evil doesn't it have to be consciously evil?

[MattJack]

lol that'll go over pretty well.
I ended it with basically that there is evil in the world whether God created it or not and he has obviously no moral obligation to fix it. This in turn denies God being a benevolent god, thus refuting how most theologians see God, and that even though he's an uncaring asshole he can still exist. Only I made it sound alot better and put in more sentences.

Basically, God can't be both benevolent and omnipotent. Just can't happen. I just don't want that to seem like a copout. It's perfectly fine for God to be one or the other, right?

[kahljorn]

God can be benevolent and omnipotent if for example the evil was designed to lead us to some good. there was something on that link you posted about that.
and yea i dont see the problem with god being one or the other maybe there's more than one god and ones the omnipotent one and ones the benevolent one.

[kahljorn]

but then if the evil is designed to lead us to good you could say that evil doesn't actually exist because it's purpose is still good..

when you say that it's kind of getting into nietzsche territory that will kill god though. by saying that you are almost indicating that evil acts are fine because they lead to good. lol :(

[MattJack]

No I don't think all Nazis believed they were doing the right thing. A lot of Nazis had serious drug issues and alcohol issues (during the war), and mix that with a good dose of propaganda and economic depression.

I'm not saying every nazi had a meth and heroin problem, but I know that the ones that would shoot you in the back of the head in the woods after you dug a pit with your friends and family did. That is how alot of the genocide stories leaked into Europe in that day.

Imagine being so fucked up mentally and physically from drugs, alcohol, and war trauma that you couldn't execute a man correctly with a rifle from roughly 5-10 yards away. The guy you thought you killed only got an injury and played dead til all your comrades left, and then he ran into the nearest town naked and bloodied screaming genocide on the Germans part.

Point is, SOMEBODY knew some evil shit was going down.

[kahljorn]

that's true. But is it necessarily evil to be swept along with the evil? What if like hitler and all his friends thought they were doing the right thing and that's what caused the movement in the first place. those people under him were just following orders they didn't want to follow and stuff ;o

[MattJack]

God can be benevolent and omnipotent if for example the evil was designed to lead us to some good. there was something on that link you posted about that.
and yea i dont see the problem with god being one or the other maybe there's more than one god and ones the omnipotent one and ones the benevolent one.

Well, why could God just not program it into us the notion of evil, thus we'd know not to do it and instead be good.

Or again, couldn't God do one single huge act of evil to make a point like, "Hey, stop fucking around down there, this is how your suppose to act. " *Boom* Smallpox kills 100 million.

[MattJack]

that's true. But is it necessarily evil to be swept along with the evil? What if like hitler and all his friends thought they were doing the right thing and that's what caused the movement in the first place. those people under him were just following orders they didn't want to follow and stuff ;o

Yes I think good people can def get swept up into by evil. There was a book, shit I forget the name (maybe Ordinary Men?), but it was basically about this normal physician in Germany at the time who simply "got swept up" in all the hysteria and propaganda of the day. He was not evil to begin with, yet he supported evil things and conviently realized later he was the asshole.

I think that eventually, whether it's years later or decades later, one would realize the evil they committed or supported. Obviously not everyone would, as probably a majority die with their beliefs still intact. With all of that said, a vast majority of people know that there is evil. For every Nazi that thought he was doing something good I assure you there was a Jew that knew that he was doing something evil.

Thus how does God come into play into all of this? How would a benevolent and omnipotent God allow such a thing? If it were indeed to lead people or show people a greater good, why all the suffering? Why not just have that programmed in us, for a lack of a better term.

[MattJack]

I think being deceived by evil does not make you evil, but rather after a realization of your actions without any form of drastic change to mend those things does indeed make you evil.

Just following orders is a copout.

[kahljorn]

like the flood :O

the program thing is a good idea i dont know why god's not a little more creative with his power.
maybe evil is necessary. If we couldn't do evil at all, would it be like a magic device in us that holds us back whenever we want to commit a sin? because if we couldn't commit sins, how could we kill to protect ourselves, and how would it be differentiated?
or maybe evil doesn't exist at all and evil is only something we call that demeans our self-interest.

[kahljorn]

so if evil can be unconscious can it be performed by inanimate objects? Like cliffs people fall off of. Are cliffs evil? or what about guns that kill people? are guns evil?
what about the weather and stuff too

there was somewhere i was going with this line of questioning but i forgot because i was studying ;o

[kahljorn]

I'm writing a paper right now about how cultures can sweep people along like that. ;o

anyway im going to bed. good night.

[MattJack]

If evil did not exist, then we simply would not need sins to protect ourselves. We could live in a utopia so to speak. Nobody would try to kill you because that is evil.

I look at it like this: If God elimates all evil, men can't do it.

This is a weak analogy but here goes nothing. You can't fly can you? Like Superman fly, not like on a plane or by some hella bud. You can't fly because you don't have wings or some physical attribute that allows you to do so. Because God created you that way. It is just accepted, you don't go outside everyday and say, "Well I guess I'm gonna go try this flying thing again!" You simply know that it can't happen.

I think the same thing with evil could work only in a much different way. Your mind simply could not compute stealing from or killing another man. It would be absolutely silly or impossible.

[MattJack]

Right, I gotta catch some sleep myself. I'll catch up on this shitbag of a thread tomorrow!

[Gabby GaGa]

Nighty Night! Pleasant dreams.

i have to agree with kahl on this one.

Except,
i dont think evil is comparitive to the person,
but instead the society that creates rules and defines boundries.

For good to exist, there has to be evil, yada yada.
I think some people are designated, or predestined, to commit evil acts.
God's way of creating an equalibrium. So that the existing "good" is dependent on its evil counterpart.

To define one, we always need the other.
Nietzche was interesting because, here again, is a prime example of one who believes himself (and all others) to be their own gods.

This is a strange contradiction,
because on one hand, the individual is supposed to have enough disipline to restrain himself,
while at the same time, he can't be greater then that which came before him.

[kahljorn]

when you're a child you try to fly though, and then you learn you can't. That's not so much a matter of choosing as it is biology, though, but i guess that's your point.

What about animals who attack humans? Of course, it's not considered evil to kill animals because you can eat them. So what's so evil about killing for personal gain, then, since that's what happens in nature? Some animals even kill for fun. So that brings to the table, what's so evil about killing another person for personal gain? Isn't that a part of life, and a part of surviving?

Isn't it only deemed evil out of our own personal interests?

[kahljorn]

if evil did not exist, then we simply would not need sins to protect ourselves. We could live in a utopia so to speak.

yea but a utopia? even in a utopia you're going to have to eat and drink, have rent or whatever a utopia needs to work. You'll be exposed to "suffering", regardless. Is suffering evil? If not, what about the acts that are performed through it's influence?
It almost sounds like a definition of heaven or the paradise in the bible before we "Fell".

[MattJack]

What about animals who attack humans? Of course, it's not considered evil to kill animals because you can eat them. So what's so evil about killing for personal gain, then, since that's what happens in nature? Some animals even kill for fun. So that brings to the table, what's so evil about killing another person for personal gain? Isn't that a part of life, and a part of surviving?

Isn't it only deemed evil out of our own personal interests?

I think the reasons animals attack other creatures are far different than why humans attack other humans. I think most animals kill for survival, not really just to kill time.

What makes it evil to kill for personal gain is that it puts someone else at a rather ultimate loss. I think most of the time when people kill they kill because of some form of basic greed. Motivations vary, but normally when it comes to taking another person's life the motifs are irrational.

I can't really think of too many scenarios where one would have to kill another individual in order to survive.

yea but a utopia? even in a utopia you're going to have to eat and drink, have rent or whatever a utopia needs to work. You'll be exposed to "suffering", regardless. Is suffering evil? If not, what about the acts that are performed through it's influence?
It almost sounds like a definition of heaven or the paradise in the bible before we "Fell".

I would think of it to be like a heaven or paradise how the bible presents it before man fell, yes. It is a perfect world, and suffering is completely gone.

This all brings me back to something rather simple I seem to be investing more into:
God cannot be both benevolent and omnipotent. I don't even want to really refer to him as God, but rather The Creator or something to that tune.



I think some people are designated, or predestined, to commit evil acts.
God's way of creating an equalibrium. So that the existing "good" is dependent on its evil counterpart.

I don't believe anybody is predestined or designated to be or do anything. I believe that one chooses their own path through the decisions they make in life based off their circumstances and morality. If we indeed are predestined to be anything we truly don't have freewill do we? No matter what one would do or say, that individual's outcome is already decided. Therefore, that individual is not responsible for their actions in my eyes.

Why would God need to even create some "equalibrium?" He's God, he doesn't need an excuse to why he has created good. He doesn't have to answer to anyone does he? Why a counterpart? We do not need to have an counterpart of everything to know two sides of something. Further, many things do not have any counterparts. What is the counterpart of chalk? We know perfectly what chalk is without knowing what its counterpart is.

So my rebuttal is a very simple, why did God make it that way? Can God not do everything and anything? If he can't he isn't omnipotent.

If He decided to do it just because, well, He is not benevolent.

[Preechr]

I got an e-mail today that explained all this.

It was a powerpoint slide presentation that had a succession of really dramatic nature pictures, and some with puppies, and the captions explained pretty well that evil is not a thing, just as darkness is not a thing, nor cold. These are just our words to describe the absence of their opposites, which, apparently, are things. It was all very satisfying, and I highly recommend both of you idiots receive similar e-mails. You too, fake-ass moron character.

[kahljorn]

lately ive been picturing preechr as an indignant kid waving his finger at people because his icecream spilled.

"Oh no people are discussing philosophy on a philosophy forum this should be about the middle east or economic problems cause that's all i know about"

[kahljorn]

Animals sometimes play with their food. Cats do. sometimes they play with things that aren't even their food just to play...
Some people kill for survival. Wars, or even if they are poor they might rob a person. everything you do will put someone or something at a loss, it's unavoidable. you can't build a bridge without stones from a quarry am i right?

the reason why some systems have more than one god are for reasons such as this. some people believe the ultimate god may be omnipotent but isn't benevolent. the benevolent god is a lesser god.
Also, like i said, what if gods form of "Good" is something different than just making sure people don't die? What's so evil about that if it's a part of life? The only reason it seems like an important piece of the puzzle is because humans are self-interested and don't want anything bad done to them, thus they think gods interest is the same as theirs. but really why would god care, we're insignificant. but we want to feel significant, aye there's the rub lol
Maybe if evil didn't exist, then life itself couldn't exist. What would we eat? We couldn't eat without making something suffer. have you ever heard the phrase, "God created karma and then he retired," it means god created a world that is self-sustaining, functional and progressive. anyway, i guess all that's besides the point if omnipotents really means he can make anything happen ever.
And if we were nomads or foragers (living freely off the land), we'd think evil is something else like bad rains or tigers or something.

i actually wrote a paper along these lines ;o including a rationalization of how god could be good while avoiding the problem of evil. that last thing was a small Piece of THE SPIE.
my paper focused on what omnipotence means, logically.

but in the end i kind of had the same solution in that i dont think god is benevolent in the way people think. i still had a SORTA SORTA similar tract but it wasn't the same type of benevolence.

[kahljorn]

I mean obviously god isn't benevolent in the way most people think if he's benevolent at all. Just read the old testament. Killing off the entire human race, kicking adam and eve out of paradise. his dicking is endless.

[Preechr]

lately ive been picturing preechr as an indignant kid waving his finger at people because his icecream spilled.

"Oh no people are discussing philosophy on a philosophy forum this should be about the middle east or economic problems cause that's all i know about"

EXCUSE ME FOR TRYING TO PARTICIPATE IN YOUR INFANTILE CONVERSATION

[MattJack]

Oh Preechr you are so hilarious and clever! We really need more libertarians like you. By the way, how is your champion Badnarik doing these days on in the political world? Ron Paul was okay, but he's a Republican isn't he?

I know, I know, it's totally lame to exchange simple to grasp ideas on this forum. I mean, that stuff is so below a guy like you.

That's why we leave all that really cool dead horse stuff, like the middle east conflict, to cool dudes like you and ABCDEFGHIFJXXXX to measure dicks over. I mean, our simple brains can't really compete and put anything valid in, we know. Much less get you to change your allknowing mind.

I also think it's so cute when you act like you are a cool Philo Forum Elite now. After you finally got some acceptance by other elites, you simply took charge! Oh have mercy allknowing one! The condescending tone really does put you in a better position anyway, doesn't it? I'll try it sometime!

I'm going to keep posting in this forum just so a few cool dudes like yourself keep getting butthurt over and over. I know, what was I thinking? I totally forgot how serious and cool this part of the board is!

Wait, I almost forgot! Your comic genius! BEHOLD UNWORTHY ONES!
I got an e-mail today that explained all this.

It was a powerpoint slide presentation that had a succession of really dramatic nature pictures, and some with puppies, and the captions explained pretty well that evil is not a thing, just as darkness is not a thing, nor cold. These are just our words to describe the absence of their opposites, which, apparently, are things. It was all very satisfying, and I highly recommend both of you idiots receive similar e-mails. You too, fake-ass moron character.

LYKE A SPAM E-MAIL?! LYKE AN EMAIL THAT EVERYONE GETZ N STUFF AND IT IS COMPLETELY MINDLESS?! Ho Ho Ho! Quite clever Preechr. Only you and well, every jock I had in my old high school, can show such a sarcasm! Why not just add "nerds" and throw a carton of milk at me too?

Please can I learn from your ways?

[Preechr]

I MEAN YOUR ENTIRE DICSUCSION HERE WAS COMPLETELY COVERED IN AN E-MAIL I RECEIVED FROM MY STEP-MOM JESUS CHRIST

[Preechr]

To be fair, my last post was posted before I read your post, MattJack, so I will respond in a minute... :parlimentarianprocedure

[kahljorn]

that's alright preechr ive read your political idealogy in the works of ann coulter.

[kahljorn]

zing bitch zing

[Preechr]

Nevermind. It's great that you've read something that I've written once, but I really can't respond as Preechr'04 right now. You seem to have skipped a bit ahead here, so I'm not going to try to catch you up.

BUT
Since Kahl, who's been here for a while and is getting to know me a bit, is sort of similarly unfamiliar with where I'm at right now, I'll try my best to post a bit more in here to get you both up to speed for a little while, on a conditional basis. First, stop being so damn retarded, and second, quit throwing your jewelry at the pigs, Ok?

[kahljorn]

whatever ann coulter :rolleyes

[Preechr]

zing bitch zing

FUCKYOUBITCH

Stay tuned.

Fortunately for you I'm old and I need my sleep.

Within the next few days, you might just see something of interest up in here, and a few days after that, you might also see something else, unlike the last several months.

YOU HAVE HAD A FINGER POINTED AT YOU

[Preechr]

whatever ann coulter :rolleyes

Preechr may not reply because his or her status is currently set to Snoring Loudly

[kahljorn]

alright dude.
what are you going to post about?

is it about good and evil?
because ive never heard you talk about anything philosophic before. Only political/economic.

[Preechr]

alright dude.
what are you going to post about?

Preechr may not reply because his or her status is currently set to Snoring in a Drunken Stupor

[Preechr]

...though everything that has ever been subject to philosophical debate has been political and/or economic in nature....

[MattJack]

Animals sometimes play with their food. Cats do. sometimes they play with things that aren't even their food just to play...
Some people kill for survival. Wars, or even if they are poor they might rob a person. everything you do will put someone or something at a loss, it's unavoidable. you can't build a bridge without stones from a quarry am i right?

the reason why some systems have more than one god are for reasons such as this. some people believe the ultimate god may be omnipotent but isn't benevolent. the benevolent god is a lesser god.
Also, like i said, what if gods form of "Good" is something different than just making sure people don't die? What's so evil about that if it's a part of life? The only reason it seems like an important piece of the puzzle is because humans are self-interested and don't want anything bad done to them, thus they think gods interest is the same as theirs. but really why would god care, we're insignificant. but we want to feel significant, aye there's the rub lol
Maybe if evil didn't exist, then life itself couldn't exist. What would we eat? We couldn't eat without making something suffer. have you ever heard the phrase, "God created karma and then he retired," it means god created a world that is self-sustaining, functional and progressive. anyway, i guess all that's besides the point if omnipotents really means he can make anything happen ever.
And if we were nomads or foragers (living freely off the land), we'd think evil is something else like bad rains or tigers or something.

i actually wrote a paper along these lines ;o including a rationalization of how god could be good while avoiding the problem of evil. that last thing was a small Piece of THE SPIE.
my paper focused on what omnipotence means, logically.

but in the end i kind of had the same solution in that i dont think god is benevolent in the way people think. i still had a SORTA SORTA similar tract but it wasn't the same type of benevolence.


Scientists figured out why cats play with their food. They say it's because they are complete badasses.

I think we as humans could most def prevent a lot of wars if we eliminated the human greed factor and adopted in its place a tolerance/understanding factor. Once again, man falls victim to evil through greed and intolerance.

I don't think dying is evil at all, just a piece that completes your life cycle so to speak. I think dying untimely because you got a knife in the back due to some asshole that wanted your land, is evil. Death in itself is not evil, rather just the end of a cycle.

I think it is perfectly fine and a very human quality to fear death. What creature doesn't want to live besides that emo kid in your high school that just broke up with his g/f? Some of it probably does have to do with one's ego though, which I feel is acceptable.

As far as food, God could provide that, no? Well even if he decided not to, men would have a underlying moral code to make sure everyone has enough. It would basically be a Socialist's paradise(which btw that isn't my politics, don't get it twisted) in the fact that everyone would be equal. Man would understand this and adhere to it without a second thought.

[Preechr]

...nevermind... you two fags deserve one another...

[kahljorn]

that's not true.

the only way it could be true you might as well say everything that has ever been subject to philosophical debate has been human nature

[Preechr]

...nevermind... you two fags deserve one another...


...mmm... Yeah....

[kahljorn]

yea maybe but if i say anything else preechr will go I SENT YOU THAT BOOK or something

anyway making an argument that god isnt benevolent is pretty easy. like i said anybody can look in the bible and find god not being benevolent and being uninterested in human life or human perfection.

you should read chapter three of genesis though since it deals with how god feels about man achieving "Perfection".

[kahljorn]

more faggot talk, just like ann coulter :rolleyes

what was that mmm yeah thing preechr you should stop thinking of young men having sex together that's disgusting.

[Preechr]

www.dictionary.com

...look up philosophy, and see if you see anything that might lead you to believe it has anything to do with something other than human nature...


...SNORE...

[Preechr]

...and where have you discussed evil in terms of something other than human nature up in here.... not that I have read it... so I am possibly, though not likely, setting myself up for contradiction here, though I don't think it really matters, since I have set this whole stage for me being asleep right now...


...and I am closing my Firefox window now, so don't expect anymore sunshine on this forum for a bit...

[kahljorn]

you mean metaphysical?
because that's not economic or political in nature.

like i said THE ONLY WAY you could say that is if that so you're only refuting your own argument sassy pants.

[kahljorn]

i discussed evil in terms of something other than human. or at least laid the path to talk about it.

[MattJack]

It's fine, he can be cool all he wants. He posts WAY more than me in this forum, so Imma fag up all of his threads as well ;). Just let the libertarian, wait, he changed flavors already, I mean the greenindirepublicrat talk to himself.

[kahljorn]

wanting a benevolent god is also self-interested for a couple of reasons:
"Oh man gods good and he loves us specifically so hes gonna hook us up with a cool life yo"
"If we pray to god he will bless us"
"god has a plan for the universe"
"Our life has meaning"

and also because without a benevolent god is undermines our whole conception of striving to be good. When we call something god we are basically saying, "These are our ideals". Without god, to some people, there are no ideals.

stuff like that. Without a god most of those become meaningless, as far as they are based on god.

[Gabby GaGa]

Matt:
Why would God need to even create some "equalibrium?" He's God, he doesn't need an excuse to why he has created good. He doesn't have to answer to anyone does he? Why a counterpart? We do not need to have an counterpart of everything to know two sides of something. Further, many things do not have any counterparts. What is the
counterpart of chalk? We know perfectly what chalk is without knowing what its counterpart is.

Pepto Bismal.
Just kidding.
The only reason you know what chalk is
is because you've been told.
(thats not a zing. Let me explain)
We only know what god is, or what his standards are,
because we've been told.

So yes, chalk (or god) could exist,
but only because we have a notion of him.
An idea or notion is created out of collective experiances,
one of which is comparison. (good and evil)

this is all reptitive on my part, of course.
Nietzche already proved that God and human morality are dependent on each other.

I MEAN YOUR ENTIRE DICSUCSION HERE WAS COMPLETELY COVERED IN AN E-MAIL I RECEIVED FROM MY STEP-MOM JESUS CHRIST

You step mom is jesus christ. holy shit.
If she covered everything,
why don't you ENLIGHTEN us. Open our poor stupid minds.

Once again, man falls victim to evil through greed and intolerance.
Please refer to Adamsite.


when you're a child you try to fly though, and then you learn you can't. That's not so
much a matter of choosing as it is biology, though, but i guess that's your point.
Not exactly. Well, in a way.
That child is expressing either pure stupidity, or a misconception.
Stupid people I can feel sorry for, Like Ed Gein. They're like drug addicts,
and just need understanding, and hopefully treatment, as Kahl pointed out.
My second point was misconception. Misconception can fall into both the catagories of
enviroment and mental disease.
Enviroment is a template that pre-designates a persons so-called "free will"
that enviroment will permanently engrave a persons mind to function in a certain way.
Mental disease is the next catagory. This one is more difficult, because it's sometimes
impossible to draw the line between misconception and and mental disease. Yes, this is more a
question of biology.
So, is the deviant person evil because of misconception, which is really a skewed vision
of a logical or moral idea, or is he evil because of a biological (chemical or nurological)
flaw?
If bilogical, then that does indeed mean that some people are predestined to commiting evil acts.
If the subject has a misconcieved idea, then that means a skewed view was introduced somewhere
(family, community, or school), in which case fault lies with the society.
For all others, those who's upbringing was normal, and the person never experianced any trauma,
those people are plain evil. They probably commit their acts out of boredom,
because they always had a "straight-line" life. No ups or downs.
Oh yeah, to answer your question,
about why god allows suffering and illness, etc.
Because we need to go through the suffering in order to learn.

[kahljorn]

"So yes, chalk (or god) could exist,
but only because we have a notion of him.
An idea or notion is created out of collective experiances,
one of which is comparison. (good and evil)"

I see what you're saying basically what i said but the entire point of god is that he exists before our experiences.

what is evil about killing out of boredom? I'm just curious because I've been asking what evil was because you know I'm just wondering...

Nietzsche I don't think actually PROVED anything about god.

[kahljorn]

i was going to start talking about existentialism and how "Choice" and "Freedom" aren't a solice but now i feel dirty and ashamed ;(

[Gabby GaGa]

what is evil about killing out of boredom? I'm just curious because I've been asking what evil was because you know I'm just wondering...
Quite honestly, nothing.
Dont jump to conclusions just yet.
Evil is simply a word to describe any deviouse act that doesn't fit in with societies standards.

Evil, in my opinion, seems to be a term used to describe any act that goes against biology.
Homosexuality, murder, and even disfigurments.
(remember in the middle ages, when a simple bilogical disfiguremnt was often concidered
to be a work of the devil?)

So this unnatural act, described as evil, seems to be an observed biological deviance.
However, there are varying degrees of evil.

There's a pshycologist, his name escapes me at the moment,
who developed a scale of evil. There are 22 levels, each incremental number more evil then
the last.
Level 1 murders are "the least evil":
(those that are mentally diseased, and don't know any better)
level 22 is reserved for the coldest murderers. These are the people who go against their biology
entierly.
Homicide is a perversion of biology.
Biology glitch = social notion of evil.
Im too tired to read through this.

[Emu]

Murder, homosexuality and disfigurement are actually quite in line with "biology." Animals of all kinds regularly murder eachother, even members of their own species, and a goodly number of "higher" animals have been seen to engage in vigorous homosexual activity. I would direct you to the bonobo.

[kahljorn]

thanks emu that was going to be my response...

so if disfigurements are evil, does that mean whatever caused the disfigurement is evil? Bad genes? A rock they fell on? Bad diet? Some other unconscious-able thing? Any act that goes against biology would make... a lot of things evil.

honestly so far there hasn't been a good answer to that question.

anyway... I'm not going to repeat myself to gagagofuck since we've already gone over Nietzsche pretty much in entirety.

[kahljorn]

do you guys think it's immoral when people place their ability to be moral entirely in the hands of god? Such as people who say morality can't exist without god, or can't exist outside the church?
I kind of do.

[Emu]

Yes, because they're essentially saying that in the absence of God they would be immoral assholes who would rape and pillage on a whim. You know who to avoid depending on their answer to the question "Would you be moral without god?"

By the way GabbyGaGa or whatever by your reasoning if going against biology is evil then it's morally justifiable to kill someone who isn't of your extended family/tribe.

[kahljorn]

yea but somebody who says they are moral because of god would also say morality exists because of god ;o

I don't even want to talk philosophy with gabbygaga around she might be using it for her book or something.

[Emu]

Yeah but then you get into the debate about whether God created morality (and morality is therefore arbitrary) or whether god obeys a pre-existing morality and therefore god is not omnipotent and something existed before god and where did that come from and where are my keys

[Gabby GaGa]

kahl
"so if disfigurements are evil, does that mean whatever caused the disfigurement is evil?

Bad genes? A rock they fell on? Bad diet? Some other unconscious-able thing? Any act that
goes against biology would make... a lot of things evil."
where did I state that disfiguments are evil? I cited a period in history that believed
disfigurments were evil .



Evil, in my opinion, seems to be a term used to describe any act that goes against biology.
Homosexuality, murder, and even disfigurments.
(remember in the middle ages, when a simple bilogical disfiguremnt was often concidered
to be a work of the devil?)
So this unnatural act, described as evil, seems to be an observed biological deviance. "
Read more carefully before you respond
so that you don't make an ass of yourself.


By the way GabbyGaGa or whatever by your reasoning if going against biology is evil then it's
morally justifiable to kill someone who isn't of your extended family/tribe.
All humans are part of the same species.
Killing of your own species is a form of suicide. Suicide is a contradiction of biology
because biology's sole perpose is to continue life.


God himself is a description of morality.