View Full Version : The Scholar in Me Weeps
Jeanette X
Apr 13th, 2003, 05:55 PM
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0414/p08s02-wome.html
World > Middle East
from the April 14, 2003 edition
EMPTY DISPLAY: A man in the Iraqi National Museum in Baghdad peers into a smashed case that once held a 4,500-year-old marble plaque.
ANDY NELSON/STAFF
Looters plunder in minutes Iraq's millennia-old legacy
By Mary Wiltenburg and Philip Smucker
BOSTON AND BAGHDAD – He could see the mob coming, and feared not for his life, but for the treasures of Iraq's ancient past - some of them 7,000 years old - that had been left in his care.
"I took my white underpants off and put them on a stick and ran up the street to the US Marines," says archaeologist Mohsin Kadun. "I asked them - no, begged them - to help me preserve our treasures, but they would not drive down the street."
This past weekend, the frenzy of looting that has engulfed Baghdad since US troops took control of the city last Wednesday spread to the one place archaeologists worldwide hoped might be spared: the Iraqi National Museum. As hundreds of looters ran down the halls, stealing or smashing almost 70 percent of the repository's valuable statues, carvings, and artifacts, Mr. Kadun, a 30-year museum employee, stood helpless at the gates, screaming.
Iraq has been called one giant historic site, and for 80 years its national Museum has been the repository of irreplaceable records and collections of ancient art and artifacts from the country's Babylonian, Assyrian, and Mesopotamian past. The ransacking has caused incalculable loss to Iraq's, and the world's, cultural heritage, experts say. "If Iraq has anything besides oil, any meaning for humanity, it is in this history," says Paul Zimansky, professor of Near Eastern archaeology at Boston University.
Before the war began, Kadun was in charge of moving artifacts into two giant vaults to prevent them from crashing off their pedestals as US bombs shook Baghdad. Other archaeologists also took protective measures. A group of scholars, conservators, and collectors, including MacGuire Gibson of the University of Chicago, the leading US researcher in Mesopotamian archaeology, drew up a list for the Pentagon of more than 4,000 crucial Iraqi museums, monuments, and archaeological digs, urging commanders to spare them. "The museum was at the top of that list," Dr. Gibson says.
When the bombs stopped falling, the museum stood intact, its marvelous stores untouched. But US forces apparently made no plans for defending it against plunder.
Kadun, and one lone guard watched as the thieves pried open the vaults, grabbing gold necklaces and precious stones. When those were gone, they fell upon the magnificent, inscribed carvings. With carts, cars, and blankets, they hauled off the treasures of seven millennia, taking with them the cultural memory of this already traumatized nation. Among the losses: two Babylonian lions, made of baked clay, a 4,000-year-old collection of tablets laying out exercises for schoolchildren, a 5,000-year-old statue of a bearded man holding a vase.
Dr. Gibson learned of the looting on Friday, when the mob had only sacked the museum's first floor, and not yet its vaults. "That's as if somebody had gotten into the Metropolitan [Museum in New York] and taken everything out of half of it," he said, his voice shaking.
Sunday, with the threat of more vandalism, US forces still had not arrived to secure the museum. "It reflects badly on us as Americans," says Dr. Zimansky. "We've behaved like absolute barbarians. OK, you can blame a mob, but they looted because law and order was broken down, and we broke it down. Then we stood by and watched."
The losses are particularly galling, experts say, because unlike in Afghanistan, where looting and destruction of artifacts had been under way for decades before US forces arrived, Iraq had a long history of exquisite record-keeping and official protection, although in the past 13 years the country saw the defiling of provincial museums and historic sites, first in the chaos after the 1991 Gulf War and then during the economic devastation of the embargo.
James Armstrong, assistant curator of Harvard University's Semitic Museum, says he hopes that once order is restored in Iraq at least some of the stolen treasures can be recovered. In postwar Afghanistan, authorities set up checkpoints and caught some of the smugglers trying to take Buddhist artifacts into Pakistan. Iraqi artifacts will be more valuable to international collectors, but scholars say some stolen items are so well-known that they'll be impossible to sell and could in time be returned.
punkgrrrlie10
Apr 13th, 2003, 06:02 PM
well since war was coming you think they would've started to ship stuff out just in case. It's not like people can't ship exhibits and it's not like they didn't see war coming.
This really sucks though.
AChimp
Apr 13th, 2003, 06:21 PM
I don't think that Iraq was going to start shipping it's national treasures into hiding places, especially since they thought they were going to win to begin with.
It would have been like admitting defeat! ;)
mburbank
Apr 13th, 2003, 06:49 PM
I can't even comment on this yet. As a Museum person this hits home in a way I can't even express, especially where I've spent the last four months working with an exhibit from the Cairo Museum, the only collection on earth comprable to the one we're discussing here.
I heard an interview earlier today from a currator who been working with the US government, letting them know where all the major archeological sites were, and where the collections were housed.
Protecting this Museum was supposed to be a major priority.
There's no way an article can express the importance of this collection, not just in the arab world but to all mankind. This is (was) the record of man's first civilization. Many artifacts will be reocvered on the black market, I suppose, but much of the stored materials will be seperated from their documentation (Where they were found, what strata, what was near them, etc.) .
theapportioner
Apr 13th, 2003, 06:58 PM
You would bet that there would be a much larger holler if people raided the Smithsonian and National Archives, and stole the Wright Bros. airplane and the Declaration of Independence, among other things.
punkgrrrlie10
Apr 13th, 2003, 08:47 PM
I don't think that Iraq was going to start shipping it's national treasures into hiding places, especially since they thought they were going to win to begin with.
Why not? Wasn't it done during WWII?
AChimp
Apr 13th, 2003, 08:52 PM
Yeah... but the Nazis were big fans of art and weren't likely to destroy anything or sell it to the highest bidder.
You're forgetting that with the war in Iraq the U.S. is dealing with a whole different kind of people and ideology. Allah, afterall, assures them of victory. Coalition forces were supposed to have been destroyed before they got anywhere near the museums.
Jeanette X
Apr 13th, 2003, 09:08 PM
Yeah... but the Nazis were big fans of art and weren't likely to destroy anything or sell it to the highest bidder.
What about the "degenerate art" exhibitions the Nazis put up?
You're forgetting that with the war in Iraq the U.S. is dealing with a whole different kind of people and ideology. Allah, afterall, assures them of victory. Coalition forces were supposed to have been destroyed before they got anywhere near the museums.
Saddam's regime wasn't a fundamentalist one. They were secular Arab nationalists!
AChimp
Apr 13th, 2003, 09:37 PM
I was refering to the private collections/hordes that were gathered by the top officials, but yeah, there was still lots that got destroyed.
Most of it was relatively recent work, though. I don't think any Renaissance paintings were destroyed, though a lot certainly disappeared and was scattered (I personally think it's all at the bottom of a lake in the Alps) ;)
They were secular Arab nationalists!
You should have been listening to what the Iraqi Minister of Information had to say!
GAsux
Apr 13th, 2003, 09:40 PM
Iraq didn't put it's national treasures into hiding because all the good hiding places are filled with WMD! Duh.
Jeanette X
Apr 13th, 2003, 09:43 PM
You should have been listening to what the Iraqi Minister of Information had to say!
That was propeganda designed to get the support of the Iraqi people. The regime didnt actually believe any of its own rhetoric!
Abcdxxxx
Apr 13th, 2003, 10:12 PM
Aport - that comment was just dumb. Anyone reading that story is outraged, and if you're suggesting we didn't protect the museum because ancient artifacts aren't as popular as pop culture iconography ...then yeah that was just dumb.
Chimp - The Nazis destroyed TONS of artifacts and art that didn't fit their mindset, what are you talking about? Even after reading your clarification i'm still wondering..what are you talking about?
Jeanette - Saddam ran a secular government, it doesn't mean that his people were secular Arab nationalists. Saddam isn't an atheist btw.
Chances are anything that didn't compliment the Islamic fundamentalists had already been destroyed or sold a long time ago. I doubt we're talking about a collection in the league of the Egyptians. I have a feeling a lot of it will be returned, or wasn't all that special to begin with. Iraq today shows little respect for history or it's past... everything was detroyed and rebuilt... so let's not romanticize their respect for things like museums. Take a look at early photographs of how Iraq once looked and you'll cry. Still, they should have protected the museum out of respect alone.
theapportioner
Apr 13th, 2003, 10:41 PM
I thought my point was obvious enough. I don't know what you're reading bucko.
It's no stretch to say that the majority of people in the United States just don't give much of a damn about the looting of this museum (or the crises in the hospitals, the ethnic and religious clashes... I digress). Rather, it's seen as "too bad", and people shrug their shoulders. A disingenuous empathy of tragedy.
With any big art heist (take the Gardner museum heist for example) you learn precisely what was stolen -- perhaps it's simply too early, and there is certainly a glut of news these days, but I doubt the American mainstream media will provide us with a catalog of the pilfered and destroyed items in this museum, even though the loss is orders of magnitude greater. I don't foresee Fox News doing a 2 hour special on "A Cultural Heritage Lost" anytime.
Clearly too, the military leadership and government administration don't see it as a big deal, in their own words and actions.
AChimp
Apr 13th, 2003, 10:44 PM
Abcdxxxx, you are ruining my jive. >:
Abcdxxxx
Apr 14th, 2003, 12:04 AM
Aport - "It's no stretch to say that the majority of people in the United States just don't give much of a damn about the looting of this museum (or the crises in the hospitals, the ethnic and religious clashes... I digress). Rather, it's seen as "too bad", and people shrug their shoulders. A disingenuous empathy of tragedy. "
Are you blind to Americas own apathy towards these same issues when domestic? Are you that out of touch to think "the majority of people in the United States" care about the fiscal status of the Smithsonian...or any status? I'm not even sure they care about Archie Bunkers chair let alone the "crises in hostpitals" or "ethnic and religious clashes". Sometimes poor reporting is just that.... sometimes it's not a national disregard for the worlds historical goods. It's like you put on your special dissent outfit on and you reallllllly wanna wear it to the parade.
Another thing.... museum quality items are stolen every fucking day. I have been in several homes filled with items stolen from various archealogical sites, or museum back doors. Now If I was head of a museum of seriously great importance, and there was looting going on, I would personally risk my life to gaurd these items myself... and I think a lot of others reading this would too. Sadly, our military didn't think of it.
mburbank
Apr 14th, 2003, 08:56 AM
Abbcdzzx: You'r a huge one to bicth and moan about people not respecting your knowledge base. Now it's my turn.
Your statement about the relative merits of the Bahgdad Museum collection, it's comparison to the Cairo museum, the idea that it had already been plundered or sold, the idea that it can be restored are all highly missinformed and ignorant.
I'm a Museum professional and have spent the last hlf year wworking with currators from the Cairo Museum on the largest touring collection of artifcats from Egypt ever, "The Quest for Immortality". The subject of the Bahgdad collection came up quite frequently.
Moreover, whatever else one finds wrong with Sadham Hussein (and there's plent) not making this collection open and available to scholars just isn't true. The Museum has been an active center of scholarship and was up until few days before the bombing began, open to both Eastern and Western scholars. Your statement that the collection probably not that important is completely without merit and could easily have been checked.
The importance of this collection is inestemable and even the Egyptian currators I worked with acknowedlged it's historical significance as more important than their own. Among other things it included artifacts from the worlds first city and examples of the worlds first writting.
While the larger artifacts may well be recovered, the museum storehouses were also looted, seperating shards, fragments and other tiny artifcats from the notes on where they were dicovered, what strata they were in, what they were found along wth, etc. The Museum was protected until we overthrew the regime. They could have and should have taken precautions to remove and protct it. Their own people looted it. But we did nothing to prevent it. I think theirs plenty of blame to spread around for the loss of the single most important arhceological collection in existance.
Protoclown
Apr 14th, 2003, 01:21 PM
It's horribly fucking depressing. The value of these items that were either stolen or destroyed is immeasurable and the vast majority of them are probably gone forever.
Abcdxxxx
Apr 14th, 2003, 05:44 PM
Uh, no I'm not downplaying the collections importance no matter what it was. it's likely your Egyptian coworkers had the type of exposure to these babylonian artifacts denied most Western curators... but it's common sense.... look at Iraq and look at Iraq's cultural climate, and it's doubtful that the credibility of this collection was preserved. For example, It's doubtful that artifacts representative of Babylonian Jewry were preserved while the community itself was cleansed.... and it's doubtful that the same man who tore down ancient palaces would see the merit in historical archeaology.
On a side note - Fox News (I'm watching a lot of it today for some reason) is reporting this story in length with the Director of the NY Met commenting. Apparently the Pentagon were aware of these museums and their importance and warned of this.
mburbank
Apr 14th, 2003, 07:13 PM
Not only were they warned, protecting the collection was supposed to be a major priority. And Western scholars have had access to this collection until days before the war began.
Just becuase you find it common snese means nothing in terms of the reality. The collection is well known, well documented, well studied, the museum was an active center of study until very recently and none of it's contents had it's 'credability' questioned.
"It's doubtful that artifacts representative of Babylonian Jewry were preserved while the community itself was cleansed"
Whie I lament the demise of Iraqi Jewry, that statement is like saying the Smithsonians collection of Native American artifacts are somehow in doubt.
I stress again, this museum was an active site for scholarship and research. Whatever his reasons may hve been, Hussein left it alone.
Abcdxxxx
Apr 14th, 2003, 09:47 PM
"It's doubtful that artifacts representative of Babylonian Jewry were preserved while the community itself was cleansed"
Whie I lament the demise of Iraqi Jewry, that statement is like saying the Smithsonians collection of Native American artifacts are somehow in doubt.
I stress again, this museum was an active site for scholarship and research. Whatever his reasons may hve been, Hussein left it alone.
Well that's good to know. Still.. when you eradicate an entire population you rarely tend to preserve it's history. Unlike the Native Americans who continue to survive in America, run cultural centers, and curate their own museums worth of items... there are only a few dozen Iraqi Jews left, and one Temple without a Congregation. While you might think Saddam runs his museums with the integrity of a Smithsonian, I would question it...and I would wonder how likely it is that items related to Kurds and other minorities got the same treatment. If the Arab world pays no respect for Jewish life, then why on earth should one expect any better for the historical items that prove or disprove many hotly debated issues? How to explain why Saddam would protect and showcase a Jewish museum piece while destroying actual historical sites of incredible importance to documenting our civilization? Obviously you know more about the collection then I do,.... but then what can you tell me of the collection as it pertained to the historical relevance on minorities in the land... Christians, Kurds, Jews, Drus, etc. etc ?
VinceZeb
Apr 15th, 2003, 10:52 AM
Let's be realistic: Freedom is scary. These people who were under a boot heel of oppression went from the chains of oppression to freedom. When you are oppressed and forced to be meager for so long, the first instinct would be to steal back what is "yours", so to speak. So they go after govt buildings, museums, etc. I give the people the benefit of the doubt of seeing these treasures as part of Saddam trying to show his great cultural history, considering the asshole thought he was an Old Testament type ruler. So I don't blame them for going apeshit.
Now, is it bad that those things were destroyed? Yep. Do I personally care? Not really. Do I believe the Iraqis will wise up and not decide to destroy their history? Yes.
The_Rorschach
Apr 15th, 2003, 03:03 PM
Not to burst your little bubble of cynicism CLA, but uh. . .
http://www.thehawaiichannel.com/news/2113111/detail.html
U.S. Tries To Help Get Stolen Iraqi Artifacts Back
POSTED: 8:33 a.m. EDT April 15, 2003
CENTRAL COMMAND HEADQUARTERS, Qatar -- U.S. Central Command says allied forces didn't expect Iraqi treasures to be looted by the Iraqi people.
But spokesman Vincent Brooks said the coalition is now focusing on getting those treasures back. At the daily war briefing, Brooks said the power vacuum that was created when Saddam Hussein's regime fell led to the looting of artifacts from Iraqi museums and other sites.
He said the vacuum is being filled. Brooks said officials are hoping people who have information about any stolen goods will provide it. And they hope the items haven't left Iraq or turned up on the black market.
Brooks said the looted Iraqi artifacts aren't just important to the Iraqi people -- but to the whole world. He said the coalition is considering a reward system to help get the items back.
Earlier, Secretary of State Colin Powell pledged to help preserve Iraq's history.
He, too, said that the United States will play a leading role in helping the Iraqis recover artifacts stolen by looters from Iraqi museums in recent days. Powell also said the effort will involve restoring antiquities that have been damaged.
Powell said he's seeking the cooperation of the European Union and the United Nations, along with the international police agency Interpol. A State Department spokesman said the looting of artifacts is a big loss for historical research.
Abcdxxxx
Apr 15th, 2003, 03:07 PM
This will all be old news by the time most of you read this, but the US is also offering a reward for the return of such artifacts... just the same way they're offering rewards for the capture of war criminals, and tips on finding chemicals.
AChimp
Apr 15th, 2003, 03:23 PM
I thought that the U.S. didn't need the UN for anything, so why are they asking for its assistance in this matter?
theapportioner
Apr 15th, 2003, 04:29 PM
http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=2684
This is infuriating and absolutely negligent.
mburbank
Apr 15th, 2003, 05:18 PM
I hardly know which bit of who's willful ignorance and myopia to start with.
Abcddx: Everything you think here is based on pure, personal supposition. I am also amazed at your personal tunnel vision. That collection was a repository of the worlds culture. Mathematics and language were invented between the Tigris and Euphrates. It is the single most important archeological site on earth. Your uninformed conjecture about one small aspect of this treasure trove is obsessive. Your siting other regional minorities is also irrelevant. Not that I don't think those are worthy areas of archeological and cultural study, not that I think they are not significant in the regions history, but The main articles of significance in the collection date back to the city of Ur. The Babalonyian Captivity is last week comepared to some of that stuff. It isn't just hyperbole or Arab nationalism to call the area around Bahgdad the "Cradle of Civilization" it's a close to true as the current world archelogical record gets.
Shach; Swell, they 'plan', they 'hope'. They'll get back a good deal of it I imagine, and that's great. But a lot of it is gone for good or will only resurface in private collections. As I've mentioned, the archeological records and small artifacts are almost certainly unrecoverable. And the Library? Good luck.
Now on to the seniormost shaved ape here. Vincent. Do you revel in your stupidity, or just not recognize it?
"I give the people the benefit of the doubt of seeing these treasures as part of Saddam trying to show his great cultural history, considering the asshole thought he was an Old Testament type ruler. So I don't blame them for going apeshit. "
1.) I doubt sincerely that any Arabs at all, Iraqis or otherwise, saw this museum as emblematic of Saddam. This is the record of civilzation, theirs most particularly, but everyone's in general. The artifactas predate Judaism, Pre-date the Egyptian Empire, Pre-date every other civilization. Do you think the Italians identified the remains of Pompeii with Muselini? Because that would have been lot less of a stretch in years and significance. And Saddam identified himself with Saladin, not an old testament anything. I'm sure their pleased you don't blame them for going apeshit, though.
"Do I personally care? Not really."
That's because you're a cretin, Vince. And I'm being kind.
VinceZeb
Apr 15th, 2003, 10:38 PM
OOOOHHHHHHHHh, I'm sorry Max! I'm sorry that I could give a fuck less about some old ass pottery and maps and such when put up against the freedom of a people that have been ruled by fear and war for 24 FUCKING YEARS!!!
It sucks priceless artifacts were destroyed. It really does. But look at it from their p.o.v.: Would you, as an Iraqi citizen, finally free from an asshole murderous dictator, look at that museum and say "Well, I shouldn't touch that" or "This is something that Saddam holds as being of importance, so its time to tear it up." I am going with choice number 2, sir.
Max, you need to grow the fuck up. Quit thinking like some elitst, scholarly lib and join the mass majority in the real world. Your attitude suggests that you need to have your ass beat up and down a few city blocks once in your life.
Abcdxxxx
Apr 16th, 2003, 02:24 AM
Hey Max.... what the hell are you talking about? You might like to view yourself as a great cultural humanitarian with a huge respect for preservation of artifacts and history... but get a grip and open your eyes to reality. I don't know much in detail of the collection, but I get the feeling you're going by the reputation of some Egyptian coworkers who impressed you. Can you actually point me in the direction of some websites that might describe the catalogue as it was intact? One that was representative of history without alterations and editing according to it's benefactors whims....oh and this wasn't just any benefactor...he was a cruel and heartless one who attempted to eradicate entire races and cultures. So if that seems tunnel vision and irrelevant to you then I truly feel sorry for your respect of curatorial integrity anyway. Surely an old rock of great importance is still an old important rock just the same... even if some other rocks were destroyed... but don't get carried away.... Saddam tampered with every inch of Iraqi history he could. Again, if you can find a website with more detailed information it might be helpfull for the both of us.
Another thing... these articles forget to mention that some of the looted items were taken from the vaults. Meaning this was an inside job. A lot of the material will in fact end up in the blackmarket...or in Syria...or France...because these items weren't bumrushed by hooligans, they were carefuly stolen by people who knew the stock.
FS
Apr 16th, 2003, 05:10 AM
Vince, take two steps back, cause you're once again missing the point entirely. This topic is about ruined cultural treasures. You don't prove you're right by saying there's worse things to worry about. That'd be like me going into your little tax rant thread and scalding you for worrying about money while there's people dying somewhere else in the world. Dipshit.
punkgrrrlie10
Apr 21st, 2003, 09:32 PM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=540&e=2&u=/ap/20030421/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_us_antiquities_2
WASHINGTON - Art collectors and dealers say they already are getting queries about artifacts looted from Iraq (news - web sites)'s museums, and the FBI (news - web sites) said Monday that at least one suspected piece has been seized at an American airport.
Thousands of items, some dating back many thousands of years, were taken when U.S. forces overthrew Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s regime. The FBI has begun working with U.S. and international law enforcement agencies, as well as art collectors, auctioneers and experts, to try to recover them.
Lynne Chaffinch, manager of the FBI Art Theft Program, told a small group of reporters that she expects the thieves will attempt to sell most of the stolen pieces in wealthy countries such as the United States, Britain, Germany, Japan, France and Switzerland. People in the United States already buy about 60 percent of the world's art, both legal and illegal.
"We've had some interesting motives, but mostly it's money," she said of the reasons behind art theft.
Chaffinch said Customs agents at an unspecified U.S. airport seized at least one item believed stolen from a Baghdad museum.
Customs officials declined comment, citing an ongoing investigation. But they did say that Customs agents at ports of entry nationwide are on the lookout for Assyrian, Sumerian, Mesopotamian and other treasures believed stolen.
Thieves usually attempt to sell stolen art and artifacts on the legal market. The FBI frequently hears about a suspect piece from a dealer or expert, then dispatches an undercover agent to contact the seller. Some of these agents have art history training so they can move undetected in a highly specialized world.
"You've got to be able to talk the talk," Chaffinch said.
The FBI will work closely with art collectors, auction houses, museum curators and even online sellers such as eBay to track down any Iraqi pieces offered for sale in the United States.
Key to that will be getting documentation about the stolen pieces from Iraq so that law enforcement officials here and abroad can authenticate those that are recovered. This case is far different from many art thefts, which can involve famous works by artists such as Picasso or Van Gogh rather than ancient pieces of pottery or writing tablets that only experts recognize.
"Somebody steals a Picasso or a Rembrandt, it's going to be hard to sell," Chaffinch said.
The FBI soon will send a team of agents, probably along with Chaffinch, to Baghdad to collect that information. That will be posted for police on the FBI's National Stolen Art File, which along with private and international databases list descriptions of some 100,000 pieces of stolen art.
The University of Chicago's Oriental Institute has also begun posting on its Internet site descriptions of some important artifacts believed stolen. Experts at the university say between 50,000 and 200,000 items were stolen from Baghdad museums after the city fell to U.S. forces.
A U.S. government task force that includes the FBI and Justice Department (news - web sites), State Department, Customs, CIA (news - web sites) and Interpol is figuring out how to tackle the Iraqi looting case. Some thought is being given to using an amnesty or reward program to get thieves to return items, though officials stressed no final decisions have been made.
In addition, Interpol plans a conference May 5-6 in Lyons, France, to organize and coordinate international efforts to both recover the stolen pieces and arrest the perpetrators. Some Interpol investigators are already in Kuwait, awaiting U.S. military permission to travel to Baghdad.
The sheer scale of the thefts has sparked unprecedented publicity that is already helping law enforcement officials investigate the case, Chaffinch said. The fact that the items date to civilization's earliest times has led to worldwide interest in the case, she added.
"That's the cradle of civilization," she said. "It isn't just Iraqi cultural heritage — it's the world's cultural heritage."
Abcdxxxx
Apr 21st, 2003, 10:41 PM
...and in case anyone missed it...they nabbed like 42 paintings on the blackmarket in Italy. your typical street looter wouldn't know what to do with 50,000 - 200,000 items (good lord!) and they certainly wouldn't know how the hell to get something on to the blackmarket in italy a week after the incident while the rest of iraq is full of turmoil. think about it. also, think about the los angeles riots after rodney king... people went nutty dragging trash bins filled with diapers down the block, just grabbing ANYTHING they could. you couldn't fault them. i think this was an inside job though.
theapportioner
Apr 22nd, 2003, 12:04 AM
My suspicion is that a good amount of it was done by professionals (as opposed to the street thief), and probably some from the inside, yes.
mburbank
Apr 22nd, 2003, 11:00 AM
Why does Rumsfeld hve to be so petty, meanspirited and contemptous about this? I saw him at a press conference equate the looting with one video of a 'vase' being stolen shown 20 times.
Who does this serve? Why does he feel the need to be so snide? One is left wiith the impression that he think nothing merriting seriousness is happening, and I don't just mean the looting, I mean the entire war.
Abcdxxxx
May 2nd, 2003, 12:27 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/international/worldspecial/01MUSE.html?pagewanted=all&position=
BAGHDAD, Iraq, April 30 — Even though many irreplaceable antiquities were looted from the National Museum of Iraq during the chaotic fall of Baghdad last month, museum officials and American investigators now say the losses seem to be less severe than originally thought.
Col. Matthew F. Bogdanos, a Marine reservist who is investigating the looting and is stationed at the museum, said museum officials had given him a list of 29 artifacts that were definitely missing. But since then, 4 items — ivory objects from the eighth century B.C. — had been traced.
"Twenty-five pieces is not the same as 170,000," said Colonel Bogdanos, who in civilian life is an assistant Manhattan district attorney.
mburbank
May 2nd, 2003, 09:49 AM
While I applaud this Manhattan DA's mathematical acumen, an 'invesitigator' who so obviously hasd an agenda ought to at least keep his yap closed until he has facts to report.
I have no idea where this figure of 29 missing artifacts comes from, but I also have no doubt at all it is something he doesn't understand. If there were 29 artifacts missing from museum that size it would be difficult for anyone beyond currators to even notice.
This is Rumsfeld with his "One Vase shown over and over" theory. The case may have been overstated, but 29 artifacts is a completely ridiculous figure.
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