15 british navy PERSONNEL captured

[Geggy]

http://www.rumormillnews.com/pix3/pic86243.jpg

article (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2007-03-23T134434Z_01_COL331821_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ-IRAN-BRITAIN.xml&src=/ActiveBuddy)

[KevinTheOmnivore]

1. Did Hezbollah deny capturing those troops?

2. Has Iran denied capturing these British troops?

3. Are Hezbollah and Iran a part of a Jooish conspiracy to have themselves attacked?

Answer these questions, or I'm going to abuse my moderating power and have fun with this thread....

[Preechr]

Sounds much more like the time when Iran captured some British marines and a couple of sailors, made them apologize publically for illegally entering Iran, then let them go unharmed after a few days. Remember when that happened? Remember how US Forces and an elite team of leather-clad Super Jews conducted illegal raids on Iran, using their lazer eyes and flying powers?

[Preechr]

From your article:

The incident was similar to one in 2004 in which eight British servicemen spent three nights in the hands of Iranian Revolutionary Guards before being released unharmed.
In that incident, the Iranians accused them of crossing into Iranian waters, which Britain disputed. This sparked the now infamous "Super Jew Raids," which left most of Iran scorched and unuseable for childrens' playgrounds, as had been that land's traditional function.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aGMk5zuI8AR0&refer=home

Here is an interesting read on the current diplomatic status between Britain and Iran. This bit was interesting:


His spokesman Tom Kelly later told reporters that when the Prime Minister referred to a ``different phase'' in dealing with Iran, he didn't mean military action or expelling diplomats. Blair would prefer the matter to be resolved ``quietly and privately'' and the new phase may involve making public why the U.K. was so sure its people were in Iraqi waters, Kelly said.
``We have been clearly stating that we are utterly certain that the personnel were in Iraqi waters,'' he said. ``We so far haven't made explicit why we know that because we don't want to escalate this. We may get to the stage where we will become more explicit.''

What might the British have been investigating there? Why the certainty that they were in Iraqi waters (which I'm sure they were).

[Abcdxxxx]

The dummies guess would be that the kidnapping itself occured on Iraqi soil, or as a result of an altercation which started along an Iraqi port. The problem with this is the Brits do themselves a disservice in terms of credebility when they try and minimize a situation while threatening to put Iran on blast and tattle if they don't play nice. Why not just say what happened? Iran's not going to appreciate the kid glove diplomacy anyway.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Yeah, my guess would be that the Brits were checking for weapons trafficing, or somethinglike that, and had the guns turned on them.

I agree with you on their choice of methods. They should come clean with what they know, and put the ball back in the Iranian court.

[Preechr]

THEM DIRTY AY-RABS!!!!

[Abcdxxxx]

THEM DIRTY AY-RABS!!!!

I love it when people think they're poking fun at prejudice, and then end up making themselves sound 200* times as bigoted.

*Sean Penn math.

[Sethomas]

I'd prefer the company of someone who sounds like a bigot over someone who IS a bigot. I guess that's why I haven't invited you to any of my parties. Sorry, Quadruple X.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Could we not turn this into another "abc hurt my feelings once" thread?

Sounds like Iran might release the female sailor today: http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1257880,00.html

[Sethomas]

I forgot that only one person here is allowed to find faults in others. Or maybe two, I guess.

I heard that the watercraft used by the Britons was a "zodiac boat", or something like that, which was conspicuously small for anything not conspicuous in nature. I can understand that covert operations SHOULD happen at times, but if such is the case for the situation then I think it's time for transparency. Yeah, it might mess Plan A, but things would already be messed up as it is and admission of what happened could only ameliorate the situation.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Oh, good grief...

As for them being covert-- weren't they in uniform? Not very covert.

I don't believe Iran has any diplomatic leg to stand on here. Between the UN sanctions vote, and all of the Iranians supposedly being held in Iraq by the US, including a diplomat (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/06/iraq/main2437180.shtml), this stinks of retaliation.

And as for the point made about using kid gloves on Iran-- it's not as if the Iranian's haven't gone this route in the past. If Blair capiutlates on this at the demands of the British people (which is certainly what Iran wants), all Iran will learn is what Bin Laden has said over and over and over again. If you keep attacking the West, they will give in, and they will leave. This also serves as a way to put a wedge between us and England, since they will probably demand that WE release thugs and insurgents caught in Iraq from Iran.

[Preechr]

On that note, I'd bet that the timing of this has everything to do with Blair's softening commitment to the effort. They know the longer they keep bad news in the papers back home the more frustrated Westerners will be with the war, and they've developed a formula for stirring the shit at just the right time. I wonder if this will strengthen the British commitment or if they'll go the way of Spain...

I know I'm throwing Iran in the same bucket as Al Qaeda with that statement, but it's war on terror, after all, right? It's all just 4G warfare. It's amazing to me that blatantly kidnapping foreigners is still considered a mild offense for Iranians... "It's Ok. They just do that sometimes. They don't really mean anything by it..."

[KevinTheOmnivore]

There's no military solution in Iraq, Preech. Only politics can save us now...

[Abcdxxxx]

It's amazing to me that blatantly kidnapping foreigners is still considered a mild offense for Iranians... "It's Ok. They just do that sometimes. They don't really mean anything by it..."

Isn't that just the standard thought for kidnappings in the entire region? The majority of them go unreported, or are rationalized away. They should be treated as the international incidents which they are, rather then downplayed as the Brits are doing right now by holding back details.

[Preechr]

Political up to the point to which economic solutions take the bull by the horns.

Iran says the Brits were in the wrong place, but the Brits, who have actual sattelites, say the Iranians were in the wrong place. I say they should let us build them a Walmart so they can get GPS devices for their soldiers for $14.99 each and we won't have problems like this anymore.

[Abcdxxxx]

Yeah because money breeds pacifism and equality.

[mburbank]

Kev; no matter how looney you think Geggy's original post was (and it could have said 'cow cow cow cow' or all I can tell now) replacing it AND continuing to discuss the situation in a thread he started actually does seem abussive to me.

My brother, who works for the Fed, has a theory: Sure, absolute power corrupts absolutely, but really small amounts of power corrupt pretty good too.

I guess it was a totally inane conspiracy theory that contributed nothing and you feel he proved that by not responding to your provocation. Fine. If you feel it's worth your time to pave it over, great. Make a similar effort and start a conversation you feel is more significant.

[Abcdxxxx]

KMake a similar effort and start a conversation you feel is more significant.

Isn't that what he did when he posted the article we're all now discussing? If Geggy's not sticking around to defend his posts then at some point he's just spamming the forum.

[Preechr]

Yeah because money breeds pacifism and equality.

You are just being retarded. Now that I'm on your enemy list, discussing anything with or even around you is like arguing with a stop sign. Calm down, scrappy. The Dark Side's tightening it's grip on your frontal lobe. What you just said made no sense at all. Are the richest countries in the world the ones we're worried about right now? No. It's the poorest, most fucked up ones. You cannot have a free economy absent a foundation upon political and social freedoms.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Dear Max,

1. If Geggy actually posted "cow cow cow cow," I would adore him for it. It would be far more substantive than what he currently does.

2. I warned him to defend his posts-- I have had more than one person complain to me about Geggy posting some stupid article like a spambot, and then never defending his claims. I asked him a series of questions, and he ignored them. I'm treating him no differently than I would any other spamming whore.

3. The original article, the source of the conversation, is still there.

4. I am drunk with power.

5. Incase you didn't notice, we were having a conversation on the subject matter, but thanks for derailing it.

6. cow, cow, cow, cow.

[Abcdxxxx]

Are the richest countries in the world the ones we're worried about right now? No. It's the poorest, most fucked up ones. You cannot have a free economy absent a foundation upon political and social freedoms.

That all depends on how you read the numbers, and how much you fear an attack from Samoa. A free economy doesn't equate wealth equality let alone social freedom. The foundation you're looking for has little to do with economical issues.

[Jeanette X]

Cow Cow Cow Cow.

[Geggy]

I'm just sayin the parrellel between israel soldiers captured by hezbollah inside the border of lebanon is too much similiar to the recent capturing of brits personnel. How do you know it's not a common military strategical method used by the west to deliberate allow their own people to get caught by the enemies and use it as provacation to strike them in order to further the west's agenda? It's taken tony blair too long to come up with proof that brits were in iraqi waters so why are you more likely to believe he is telling the truth than the iranians are? We know that the us has drawn up plans to invade iran and overthrow the government 10 years ago, if you would understand the document written by kristol himself, instead of dismissing it as spam and stupid article then it would make for easier predictions.

[Abcdxxxx]

According to Nasrallah, the kidnappings were pre-meditated. So there goes that theory, Geggy.

July 24, 2006, Al Jazeera TV

Hassan Nasrallah: "The second issue is any attack against civilians. I told them on more than one occasion that we are taking the issue of the prisoners seriously, and that abducting Israeli soldiers is the only way to resolve it. Of course, I said this in a low-key tone. I did not declare in the dialogue: 'In July I will abduct Israeli soldiers.' This is impossible."

Interviewer: "Did you inform them that you were about to abduct Israeli soldiers?"

Hassan Nasrallah: "I told them that we must resolve the issue of the prisoners, and that the only way to resolve it is by abducting Israeli soldiers."

Interviewer: "Did you say this clearly?"

Hassan Nasrallah: "Yes, and nobody said to me: 'No, you are not allowed to abduct Israeli soldiers.' Even if they had told me not to... I'm not defending myself here. I said that we would abduct Israeli soldiers, in meetings with some of the main political leaders in the country. I don't want to mention names now, but when the time comes to settle accounts, I will. They asked: 'If this happens, will the issue of the prisoners be over and done with?' I said that it was logical that it would.
[.......]
Do you want me to tell the entire world that I am about to carry out an abduction operation? It's not logical."
[...]
"It is true that I did not inform the Lebanese government, but I did not inform my closest allies either. Syria and Iran did not know. No Syrian or Iranian knew. They did not know, and I did not consult any of them."

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP121106#_edn1

[KevinTheOmnivore]

"I'm just sayin the parrellel between israel soldiers captured by hezbollah inside the border of lebanon is too much similiar to the recent capturing of brits personnel. How do you know it's not a common military strategical method used by the west to deliberate allow their own people to get caught by the enemies and use it as provacation to strike them in order to further the west's agenda?"

Because you have no proof, no argument and no clue. What parallel are you friggin talking about? What makes you believe kidnapping is somehow this unique thing in the Middle East? Do you even bother to read a book, or fuck ,just read Wikipedia or something? Try it out, as opposed to believing every bullshit conspiracy site you come across.

Your argument is beyond absurd, because not only does it imply some nefarious planning on the part of the West (for both incidents), but it also implies complicity on the part of Hezbollah and Iran for their respective kidnappings! In your Candy Land mind, this is all political theater, with the one and only true bad guy being America and Jews. Get a fucking clue.

"It's taken tony blair too long to come up with proof that brits were in iraqi waters so why are you more likely to believe he is telling the truth than the iranians are?"

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU!? See, now you post all of this crap that you expect us to waste our time reading from shitty sources, but when everyone else begins a discussion, you ignore it.

Read the Bloomberg article. Read over what all of the adults in this thread are talking about. Blair has plainly stated that he has withheld info due to its sensitive nature. What proof has Iran put forth, other than claiming that the Brits "confessed" to spying...?

"We know that the us has drawn up plans to invade iran and overthrow the government 10 years ago, if you would understand the document written by kristol himself, instead of dismissing it as spam and stupid article then it would make for easier predictions."

Nations plan a lot of things. The Army War College has conducted war game scenarios on Iran, and we have ships conducting war games now. It's called planning. Now Geggy, if you have some proof that the U.S./Britain/Israel are staging this kidnapping in order to implement a documented plan, well by all means, present this to us. Otherwise, shut the hell up.

[Geggy]

I already knew the kidnappings in the middle east has been going on for a long time. And that's your best proof you have, tony blair classifying info because of it's sensitive nature? In other sense you have no real proof. :lol

http://newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

I've posted this link too many times but I doubt anyone has bothered to read the whole thing because it's too long. Chapter 5 is probably the most revealing but read the whole thing as you can see it is clearly happening now.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

No, a publication put out by a think tank is not a plan by the United States government. That's the proof I want.

"And that's your best proof you have, tony blair classifying info because of it's sensitive nature? In other sense you have no real proof"

He isn't "classifying" anything, you idiot. The British government is playing nice with a thug, and they are making themselves look weak as a result. I trust the word of Tony Blair over a religious tyrant in the Ayatollah and his puppets, but you choose to believe in the latter. That's your deal, and is probably rooted in your anti-semitism (notice how you jumped to include Israeli involvment in this whole matter?).

So here's what we'll do--Blair is taking this issue to the UN, where he is likely to divulge more info regarding the kidnappings. When that happens, and it become clear that PNAC and the tooth fairy didn't stage this whole event, I expect you to come back here and apologize. Will you do that?

[El Blanco]

By the way, geggy, have you read the PNAC document you love to efer to?

It is related to upgrading communications technology, not world domination.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/ED95D49E-6C62-40DE-A1DF-109630E98FC8/0/Slide1.JPG

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/ModBriefingShowsRoyalNavyPersonnelWereInIraqiWater s.htm

MOD briefing shows Royal Navy personnel were in Iraqi waters

28 Mar 07

The Ministry of Defence has presented evidence which shows that the fifteen personnel detained by Iranian authorities on Friday 23 March 2007 were operating in Iraqi waters when they were seized.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Templates/GenerateThumbnail.aspx?imageURL=/NR/rdonlyres/DB42AC92-E1CC-4478-9910-B8CB299A6612/0/HeloGPS.jpg&maxSize=210
Picture shows GPS location of the incident, as seen from a Royal Navy helicopter over the merchant vessel after the event
[Picture: MOD]




The briefing, at defence headquarters in London, was given by Vice Admiral Charles Style, Deputy Chief of the Defence Staff (Commitments). Vice Admiral Style, who is responsible for providing strategic advice to operational commanders, explained in detail where the Royal Navy personnel were located when they were seized:"The aim of this brief is to provide a factual account of the incident during which fifteen Royal Naval personnel were seized by the Iranians last Friday. By way of background, HMS CORNWALL was in charge of the coalition force, which - alongside the Iraqi Navy - is operating in the Northern Persian Gulf."This force maintains the sovereignty and integrity of Iraqi territorial waters under UN Security Council Resolution 1723, and with the approval of the Iraqi Government. The ship – and others in the coalition - maintain a presence patrolling there. They are also charged with protection of the Iraqi offshore oil infrastructure – economically very important - and the security of merchant vessels.http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Templates/GenerateThumbnail.aspx?imageURL=/NR/rdonlyres/ED95D49E-6C62-40DE-A1DF-109630E98FC8/0/Slide1.JPG&maxSize=210
Picture shows position of HMS Cornwall on Friday 23 March 2007

[Picture: MOD]




See Slide – chart of Northern Persian Gulf >>>"On 23 March a boarding team consisting of seven Royal Marines and eight sailors - who were embarked in two of HMS CORNWALL's boats - conducted a routine boarding of an Indian flagged Merchant Vessel which was cooperative throughout. They investigated this vessel after witnessing her unloading cars into two barges secured alongside. Since early March the force has conducted 66 routine boardings. So the one that I'm talking about was entirely routine business, and conducted in a particular area where four other boardings have been completed recently. "As shown on the chart, the merchant vessel was 7.5 nautical miles south east of the Al Faw Peninsula and clearly in Iraqi territorial waters. Her master has confirmed that his vessel was anchored within Iraqi waters at the time of the arrest. The position was 29 degrees 50.36 minutes North 048 degrees 43.08 minutes East. This places her 1.7 nautical miles inside Iraqi territorial waters. This fact has been confirmed by the Iraqi Foreign Ministry.http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Templates/GenerateThumbnail.aspx?imageURL=/NR/rdonlyres/09D090E9-66DD-4951-9774-AC88983AF4CD/0/Slide2.JPG&maxSize=210 (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Templates/GenerateThumbnail.aspx?imageURL=/NR/rdonlyres/09D090E9-66DD-4951-9774-AC88983AF4CD/0/Slide2.JPG&maxSize=210) Picture shows first Iranian reported position [1] and corrected Iranian position [2]
[Picture: MOD]




See Slide – Iranian claimed positions >>>"The Iranian government has provided us with two different positions for the incident. The first we received on Saturday and the second on Monday. As this map shows, the first of these points still lies within Iraqi territorial waters. We pointed this out to them on Sunday in diplomatic contacts. "After we did this, they then provided a second set of coordinates that places the incident in Iranian waters over two nautical miles from the position given by HMS CORNWALL and confirmed by the merchant vessel. The two Iranian positions are just under a nautical mile apart – 1800 yards or so. It is hard to understand a reason for this change of coordinates. We unambiguously contest both the positions provided by the Iranians."I should just explain at this point that the boats remained connected at this point. One of the seaboats was connected via data link, which communicated its position continually to the ship where it was displayed, superimposed on an electronic chart, on a purpose built console. During the boarding this console was constantly monitored and indicated, throughout, that the boats had remained well within Iraqi territorial waters."Our boarding started at 0739 local time and was completed at 0910 with the merchant vessel having been cleared to continue with her business. Communications were lost with the boarding team as the boarding was finishing … at 0910. HMS CORNWALL's Lynx helicopter, which had been covering the initial stages of the boarding, immediately returned to the scene to locate the boarding team. "The helicopter reported that the two seaboats were being escorted by Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guard Navy vessels towards the Shatt 'Al Arab Waterway and were now inside Iranian territorial waters. Debriefing of the helicopter crew and a conversation with the master of the merchant ship both indicate that the boarding team were ambushed while disembarking from the merchant vessel. Both boats were equipped with a GPS chart plotter.http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Templates/GenerateThumbnail.aspx?imageURL=/NR/rdonlyres/62A5E34F-FEEE-4A17-87EE-AD75524D7AF4/0/DSC_0015.JPG&maxSize=210 (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Templates/GenerateThumbnail.aspx?imageURL=/NR/rdonlyres/62A5E34F-FEEE-4A17-87EE-AD75524D7AF4/0/DSC_0015.JPG&maxSize=210) Vice Admiral Charles Style, Deputy Chief of the Defence Staff (Commitments)
[Picture: CPO Colin Burden]

"On Sunday morning, 25 March, HMS CORNWALL's Lynx conducted an overflight of the merchant vessel, which was still at anchor, and once again confirmed her location on Global Positioning System equipment. Her Master confirmed that his vessel had remained at anchor since Friday, and was in Iraqi territorial waters."Ladies and Gentlemen, my primary message is clear. HMS CORNWALL with her boarding party was going about her legal business – in Iraqi Territorial waters, under a United Nations Security Council Resolution, with the explicit approval of the Iraqi government. "The action by Iranian forces in arresting and detaining our people is unjustified and wrong. As such it is a matter of deep concern to us and the families of the people who have been taken. We continue not only to call for their safe, but for their safe and speedy, return, and we continue to seek immediate consular access to them as a prelude to their release."

[kahljorn]

you might need to point out "chapter 5" for geggy ;o

cause it's so long and stuff.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Geggy, could you maybe post a 100 page dossier with no bearing on the conversation in order to challenge all of this info? Thanks.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1582544.ece

March 29, 2007


How Britons were conned by Iranian gunboat trick

The speed and cunning shown by the Revolutionary Guards suggests that their action was premeditated

Dominic Kennedy


The British sailors and marines being held by Iran were ambushed at their most vulnerable moment, while climbing down the ladder of a merchant ship and trying to get into their bobbing inflatables.
Out of sight of their warship and without any helicopter cover, their only link to their commanders was a communications device beaming their position by satellite.
That went dead as they were captured. One theory is that it was thrown overboard to prevent the Iranians getting hold of the equipment and the information it contained.
The Ministry of Defence released the coordinates of the searched vessel yesterday to prove that the Iranian Revolutionary Guards made an unprovoked and improper attack in Iraqi waters.
The Iranians also blundered in diplomatic talks by giving the British their own compass reference for the place where they said the 14 men and one woman had been seized. When Britain plotted these on a map and pointed out that the spot was in Iraq’s maritime area, the Iranians came up with a new set of coordinates, putting the seizure in their own waters.
The speed and cunning shown by the Revolutionary Guards has raised suspicions that their action was premeditated. A senior military officer described it as “deliberate”.
It took only three minutes for the Iranians, moving at 40 knots, to move from their legitimate positions monitoring shipping in their waters to come alongside the British last Friday morning.
The sailors and marines from HMS Cornwall were in the Gulf, working under a United Nations mandate to protect Iraq from smuggling and threats to the oil industry, when an Indian-flagged vessel came under suspicion.
It was in shallow waters and the Cornwall was unable to go alongside without grounding. A boarding party jumped into two ribbed inflatable boats, or RIBs, and set out to investigate.
A helicopter hovered to observe the boarding but, after confirming that the Indian vessel was peaceful and friendly, returned to the ship. The Cornwall stayed in contact with the two launch boats via a communications link providing a GPS satellite position.
After the successful boarding of the innocent Indian vessel, the Britons began returning to their RIBs. At that moment one Iranian patrol vessel came alongside, adopting a friendly posture. As a second Iranian vessel arrived, the Revolutionary Guards turned aggressive.
HMS Cornwalllost communications with the launch boats and sent up the helicopter to investigate. The air crew watched as the small British inflatables were forced towards Iran. By now, up to four Iranian Revolutionary Guard vessels were swarming round the Britons.
Although the seizure has been widely linked to the taking of five Iranians by US forces in Iraq, Iranian diplomats have ruled this out. They say that there is no relation between the Britons’ seizure and any other bilateral, regional or international issue.
From the start, the Iranian Ambassador to London gave British diplomats a set of coordinates for the location of the confrontation.
Margaret Beckett, the Foreign Secretary, told the Iranian Foreign Minister that these compass points actually indicated a spot clearly in Iraqi waters. She tried to give Iran an exit route by suggesting that it might all be a misunderstanding that could be resolved by an immediate release of the captives.
On Sunday, the helicopter from HMS Cornwall flew back over the Indian vessel, which was still anchored and had drifted only slightly. A photograph was taken of an airman holding a GPS device. The coordinates on this picture, the MoD insists, prove that the Britons were comfortably within Iraqi waters when captured.
On Monday, Iran surprised Britain by coming up with a “corrected” set of coordinates. “The two Iranian positions are just under a nautical mile apart, 1,800 yards or so,” Vice-Admiral Charles Style, a Deputy Chief of the Defence Staff, said yesterday.
Mrs Beckett told the Iranian Foreign Minister that she could not accept the Iranians’ version of events. She told MPs in the House of Commons that it was “impossible to believe, given the seriousness of the incident, that the Iranians could have made such a mistake with the original coordinates, which after all they gave us over several days”.
Outgunned
— The two Iranian patrol ships that seized the Britons were equipped with rocket-propelled grenades and heavy machine guns, enough for a small sea battle. By contrast, the Britons go lightly armed on vessels they search in the Gulf. Each man is issued with a rifle or a pistol
— The Iranians struck at a vulnerable moment when the Britons were climbing down a ladder to jump into their inflatables
— The Royal Navy does train its men in the techniques needed to fight at just such a dangerous stage. “They had all the rights available to act in self-defence under law,” a senior military officer said. But they were in an “almost impossible position”
— A similar decision to hold fire was taken by the six Royal Marines and two sailors captured by Iran in 2004 in similar circumstances. Scott Fallon, a former marine, said they did think about shooting their way free but knew it would be hopeless. He told BBC Radio 4: “They had antiaircraft guns. We would have stood no chance”

[Abcdxxxx]

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2699
Iran leader linked to 1979 hostage crisis
Thu. 30 Jun 2005
Reuter

WASHINGTON - At least four Americans held hostage in the 1979
takeover of the U.S. Embassy in Tehran said on Thursday
they recognized Iran's president-elect as one of the
ringleaders from the crisis, a claim denied in Tehran.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/06/30/international/hostage.184.1.bw.450.jpg

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I remember that being an issue when he got elected, but wasn't it disproven?

I know the CIA dismissed it (http://www.nysun.com/article/19982?page_no=1), although I guess some of the hostages still say it was him.

Either way, he was a big proponent of the '79 embassy kidnappings. THese are the kind of methods he supports. The revolutionary guard showed up armed to the teeth in no time. THe whole thing was premeditated, which seems clear to anyone but Geggy and Rosie.

[El Blanco]

He was deffinatly in the movement, pretty low on the totem at the time, but its never be proven he was actually at the embassy.

[Abcdxxxx]

Sure as hell looks like him. There's another shot where he's holding what looks to be an Uzi, that's been posted side by side with a current shot of him, and the resemblance is uncanny.

[El Blanco]

You don't think in 30 years he tried a new haircut?

[Abcdxxxx]

You're talking about a man who hasn't changed his members only jacket once since he got into office. Strong hair roots?

[Abcdxxxx]

http://hcgtv.org/galleries/news/mahmoud_ahmadinejad_ba.jpg
http://clarityandresolve.com/79_05_comp.jpg
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images2/ahmadinejad79.jpg

[Ant10708]

They do look similar but it still could easily be someone else.

[Geggy]

No, a publication put out by a think tank is not a plan by the United States government. That's the proof I want.

You're right, they're not technically the us government but many of the members of PNAC have jobs or, at least used to, with the US government which was one of the reasons it made it easier for PNAC to implement their plans to overthrow undesired soveriegnity governments, including Iraq and Iran, and install those who would comply with their plans to provide security and stability, to militarize space, and to form one world governemnt. You can't deny the group has heavy influence on US's policy decision making. Many of them may have left their post from the us government but I'm skeptical that PNAC iis on the decline. They're probably currently remaining intact and more secretive, since too many people are well aware of the group and their plans. I don't see how it is inane to assume along with the naval build up by the US and britian, that they're setting up their own people and the iranians for the kidnappings to occur and use it as the provacation to further PNAC's plans. I'm not saying anything the iranians are doing is legal, because their tactics are becoming common and predictable, why not for the west to take advantage of the situation?

The British government is playing nice with a thug, and they are making themselves look weak as a result. I trust the word of Tony Blair over a religious tyrant in the Ayatollah and his puppets, but you choose to believe in the latter. That's your deal, and is probably rooted in your anti-semitism (notice how you jumped to include Israeli involvment in this whole matter?).

Either way because of the naval build up by the us and brits on the gulf of iran which may appear as a threat to the iranians, can you blame them for the kidnappings? Surely the US would have done the same if it was the other way around, that if iran was building up along the coast of either atlantic or pacific ocean. What do you think of the videos in which three or so of the british personnels who have confessed being in the iranian waters and apologize? Do you think it's legit or are they trying to weasel their way out of the hole by complying with the irnaians? At least to me their confessions are more believable than khalid sheikh mohammad's confession since it wasn't videotaped and aired to the public for them to see.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You're right, they're not technically the us government but many of the members of PNAC have jobs or, at least used to, with the US government which was one of the reasons it made it easier for PNAC to implement their plans to overthrow undesired soveriegnity governments, including Iraq and Iran, and install those who would comply with their plans to provide security and stability, to militarize space, and to form one world governemnt.

Which page is that in the document? Could you point it out to me? Thanks.

You can't deny the group has heavy influence on US's policy decision making.

Uhh, yeah, I can do it pretty easily. You make a pretty poor case for it to begin with, and you've otherwise provided no solid argument that they are anything more than a dumb think tank. That's all they are.

I don't see how it is inane to assume along with the naval build up by the US and britian, that they're setting up their own people and the iranians for the kidnappings to occur and use it as the provacation to further PNAC's plans.

Well let me tell you how it's inane:

1. You have absolutely NO proof that this is what they've done, and infact admit to it later on in your post.

2. You have yet to show us where PNAC even states these plans; and

3. Your middle friggin name is INANE. Not only does your argument have no credibility, but YOU have absolutely no credibility here. If you think your arguments are so damn sound, you had better do a better job of supportin them.


Either way because of the naval build up by the us and brits on the gulf of iran which may appear as a threat to the iranians, can you blame them for the kidnappings?

Ok, so here you drop your silly attempt to turn this into a ridiculous conspiracy, and simply show your allegiance to all things anti-American.

YES, I can blame them for it, because it violates international law if they took them in Iraqi waters. The British had been doing those routine sweeps, under UN approval, for months. This was a premeditated attempt to create an international incident, and you damn well know it.

Surely the US would have done the same if it was the other way around, that if iran was building up along the coast of either atlantic or pacific ocean.

But that hasn't happened, in fact this was a violation of international law against the BRITISH, so let's try to focus champ.

What do you think of the videos in which three or so of the british personnels who have confessed being in the iranian waters and apologize? Do you think it's legit or are they trying to weasel their way out of the hole by complying with the irnaians?[

I first off think it's hysterical that a dumbass such as you, who doesnt trust video footage of Osama Bin Laden, and who thinks video footage of the Pentagon on 9/11 is altered by the government, takes these video confessions at face value. it just goes to show that all your talk about being a "truth seeker" is simply cowardice and a show to cover up what's nothing more than good old fashioned anti-Americanism. You hate your country, and will take the word of ANYBODY else over them.

And speaking of cowardice, I'd love to see how you wet your pants in the situation those sailors are in, while you try to "weasel" your way out in order to "comply" with the Iranians. I'd give you about 10 seconds before you went native and were praising Allah, you little toad.

NO, I don't pay any credence to those confessions. I disregard them, just as I disregard 99.9% of the things you say.

At least to me their confessions are more believable than khalid sheikh mohammad's confession since it wasn't videotaped and aired to the public for them to see.

You are a moron.

[Ant10708]

I love how everyone mentions the US and our government policies as if we were actually directly involved in this incident



TOTAL SETUP BY THE US AND BRITISH ON THEIR OWN TROOPS

[KevinTheOmnivore]

So the 15 sailors will thankfully be released tomorrow.

So Geggy, I'm a little confused about a couple of things...

If this incident was staged by "The West," why are these sailors being released? Where's the invasion? Where's the Gulf of Tonkin?

Also, if this was truly just the Iranians protecting their coastline, why are they releasing these Brits now that they're getting access to five Iranian "diplomats" being held in Iraq? (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070404/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_detained_iranians) Any connection? What say you, oh truth seeker?

[Geggy]

I first off think it's hysterical that a dumbass such as you, who doesnt trust video footage of Osama Bin Laden, and who thinks video footage of the Pentagon on 9/11 is altered by the government, takes these video confessions at face value. it just goes to show that all your talk about being a "truth seeker" is simply cowardice and a show to cover up what's nothing more than good old fashioned anti-Americanism. You hate your country, and will take the word of ANYBODY else over them.

Oh yeah, look who's talking. Youre willing to believe in everything the us government says to you otherwise you'd be in fear of considering yourself as anti-american if you ever accuse anyone in the government of lying. Only your narrow view would think the bush administration represents all of amrerica.

I started to lean more on the fact the video may be propaganda once I found out recently that it was aired to the public with no sound. I hadn't had any idea in the first place. But I guess we'll never know for sure.

And speaking of cowardice, I'd love to see how you wet your pants in the situation those sailors are in, while you try to "weasel" your way out in order to "comply" with the Iranians. I'd give you about 10 seconds before you went native and were praising Allah, you little toad.

Can you explain why did video showed these sailors all smiling and shit like they were on taking a vacation away from their duties in iraq? It's almost impossible for anyone to behave that way if they were under duress and had a gun held to their heads unless they were injected with cheap us branded sedatives.
NO, I don't pay any credence to those confessions. I disregard them, just as I disregard 99.9% of the things you say.

Well that's your problem then.

[Geggy]

If this incident was staged by "The West," why are these sailors being released? Where's the invasion? Where's the Gulf of Tonkin?

Like they would start bombing iran after the video of captives smiling and behaving in a rational way was shown to the public. It's would be a stupid PR move on the us's part and they'd be violating the geneva convention laws for having a weak justifcation. Iran played a dangerous game in capturing these sailors but they know the US want so badly to invade Iran and they clearly played smart in making the west look weak. If iran truly wanted war with the west and commit suicide, they would have already sent a missile to israel or blow up one of the naval ships during the wargames, in which the us is hoping they would do.

Also, if this was truly just the Iranians protecting their coastline, why are they releasing these Brits now that they're getting access to five Iranian "diplomats" being held in Iraq? (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070404/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_detained_iranians) Any connection? What say you, oh truth seeker?

You know I have absolutely no recollection of anyone making deals to trade in the brits for the iranian captives during the crisis so zebari must be telling the truth when he said there's no connection. Even the us and brit military hadn't any idea of the meeting until after it was announced iran was going to release the 15 sailors. Have you ever even once considered the possibility that iranians may be telling the truth at all? Everything to you is one sided.

[El Blanco]

Oh yeah, look who's talking. Youre willing to believe in everything the us government says to you otherwise you'd be in fear of considering yourself as anti-american if you ever accuse anyone in the government of lying. Only your narrow view would think the bush administration represents all of amrerica.


Ya, Kev, stop being such a lap dog for Bush. From day 1 all you have done is profess your love for the necons.

Jesus, Geggy, do you ever read your shit before posting it?

[Ant10708]

Geggy don't you find your views slightly biased since you already assume the united states government wants war with iran?

[Geggy]

update (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAN_BRITAIN?SITE=SCGRE&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)
.................................................. ......
Washington said however there was no link between the sudden granting of consular access to five Iranians held in Iraq, and the release of 15 British naval personnel.

"There is no link whatsoever. Neither we nor the British nor anyone else, as far as I know, has made that link," State Department spokesman Tom Casey said when asked if there was a connection. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070404/pl_afp/iranbritainmilitaryus_070404170834)

[Ant10708]

I asked you a fucking question Geggy.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

update
.............................. .. .................... ................
Geggy only chooses to listen to everything the administration says when it happens to suit his narrow view of the world.

update
............... ....... . . . .......................
Geggy can't understand why the U.S. has to take a firm position stating that the two aren't linked, lest we legitimize this kind of behavior from Iran.

[sloth]

The released personnel have spoken about what happened in Iran:

Royal Navy personnel seized by Iran were blindfolded, bound and held in isolation during their 13 days in captivity, the crew have said. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6533069.stm)

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Sloth, thank you for pointing this out. You beat me to it...

So, GEGGY, what do you make of the sailors' claims that they were under tremendous pressure, blind folded and manipulated? Hmm?

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

The funny part is now Iran is saying "you owe us a favor on the political spectrum, perhaps supporting our nuclear program?"

Kidnapping sailors in disputed waters and manipulating them is a HUGE favor. And I don't want any Iranian favors any time soon.