Drugs for mental/spiritual exploration

[Vibecrewangel]

I asked these questions once before quite a while ago. However, as we have quite a few new people on this board I'm going to ask them again.
If you answered before feel free to respond again if you like.

Do you think that hallucinogenic drugs such as peyote, lsd, mushrooms, dpt, dxm, amt, salvia, dmt, foxy, mdma or mda have any legitimate spiritual or mental explorational use.

Why or why not?

Have you ever done any hallucinogen or dissasociative? If so was the experience positive or negative?

If you have not, what are you basing your answer on?

[mburbank]

Sure, make the colors of your words flow together and then ask me what I sang it from! Why not? It's all so many singing midges in a Marlboro box to me.

[Vibecrewangel]

Max :love

[FS]

I don't know if I should be replying, since the only actual experience I've had with drugs is alcohol and weed (eaten, not smoked), but having a very scientific view of the world around me, I don't believe there's much spiritual knowledge to be gained from using them.

Whether it might teach you something about the person you are (mental exploration), I wouldn't dare to guess. I've tossed around the idea of trying out mushrooms, though my sister (who has used them) thinks it might be too hefty for me. The main reason why I'd consider trying any kind of hallucinogenics is because I think it could be incredibly inspirational to whatever artistic branch you're into. On the other hand, I've been holding it off cause I think it could be incredibly scary as well, particularly to someone who's still capable of making up things to scare him in the dark at age 20 :P

[Vibecrewangel]

FS,

I waited until I was 27 to try anything other than smoke (not my favorite thing even now, don't really use it) and speed (twice - hated it still do won't touch the stuff)

I'm glad I did. I have a hell of a lot more respect for "the trip" than I would have had I done it to party and done it earlier in life.

[Anonymous]

particularly to someone who's still capable of making up things to scare him in the dark at age 20

:love
I will be 28 soon and that still happens to me. Actually it has gotten worse :( I don't know how I will ever function if I make it to 60. Anyway my point is... boy, you are FUCKED!

[Vibecrewangel]

FS,

Mushrooms seem to be the best for artists. Though of course that is my opinion. LSD makes me too flighty and all the others I have tried so far make me too jittery and shakey to even consider anything artistic. I usually can't even write or type. Some of the people I trip with have taken to secretly tape recording me so that I have a record of where my head was at and what I have come up with to adapt to things later on.

[FS]

If I tried anything, I'd like to play it safe and have someone around NOT using anything. Just in case I panic.

My sister's told me of some of the weird things she saw while doing shrooms, and that she and her friend wrote up all kinds of stuff that made no sense whatsoever afterwards. But the kind of inspiration I was thinking of wasn't really to write or paint while on the stuff, but get inspired by the hallucinations and dreamy images to do later on - writing about things so weird you probably wouldn't have thought of them while sober. Though crazy notes could be a strong inspiration as well, I guess. Well, if the circumstances and my mindset are right, I guess I'll find out.

Meanwhile, I bet I'll die of an exploding bladder when I'm lying completely still in bed at night, afraid to move cause I heard a crash downstairs :(

[Vibecrewangel]

At nearly 30 I still have fears of things that go bump in the night.
Doopa is right.....you're fucked. :D


Having someone there who is sober is what most experienced users and psychonauts call a trip sitter. I use one any time I am going out, taking a dissasociative (nothing quite like coming too with your head in the top loading washing machine and wondering how the hell you got there and even more importantly.....why), doing an unknown or untested combo or anything I haven't done before with really positive results. This includes doing a new batch of a substance I have done before. I will never guinny pig without a trip sitter.

[mburbank]

I am forty and I make things go bump in the night. And during the day. And anything near me at any time that is succeptable to bumping.


As for drugs, only my hairdresser knows for sure.



And I don't amemeber.


I hear Vince is wicked heavy into Anoxia.

[Vibecrewangel]

Max is creepy bump in the night guy. 8-)

[mburbank]

Better to be creepy then to get the creeps.

Actually the 'Hebrew jeebies' are my specialty.

[Protoclown]

I don't understand how drugs would really help with spiritual or mental exploration. The way I see it, if you want to do it, you just do it. What difference do the drugs make either way?

[Skulhedface]

Having little to no experience with drugs aside from tobacco, alcohol and maybe two dances with marijuana, I can't really speak for a creative burst hallucinogens may give to someone.

However, I'd be too afraid to try it. I've heard about people doing some extremely stupid things while tripping (and I mean besides just plain old acting stupid). I've heard about a man who started tripping on shrooms and beat his kids to death because he thought they were demons.

BUT... I support it in SOME capacity. It is a Native American tradition, and since it is a major part of their lives (and not just because they are getting high) I see nothing wrong with that.

The only cases I'd say I don't support are the recreational users... and not even those, I'd say more the recreational abusers are the ones that shouldn't be touching the stuff.

So I guess the bottom line is, it ultimately depends on the situations. I'd allow it in the case of tradition (i.e. Native Americans who don't harm anyone while on it) and I'd disallow it for most other fucks (i.e. the redneck who does it and then goes off to slap his wife a few dozen times)

[FartinMowler]

Since this isn't a political subject I would like to say that I grew up in B.C. and I did some drugs. I am almost the same age as the Oscar Meyer wiener mobile and I don't recall ever doing anything on Mushrooms,LSD or Pot that was really creative. Alchohol is the only thing that seems to loosen my brain (1 or 2 drinks). I would really like to know if Heroin is really what helped famous musicians write there music or it was the fact that it dullened other senses so they could be creative with a different part of there brain?

[VinceZeb]

Truthfully, I have only smoked weed and hash in my life, and I can say the experience was less than interesting. All I kept hearing was cop sirens and I thought I was drowning in my own spit.

The problem I have with drugs as a "spiritual expander" is pretty basic. Bill Hicks was a big believer in drugs for that above purpose. Now he hated organized religion, but since he was getting high to expand his mind, it was ok. That is the problem I have. Unless doing drugs is deeply-rooted in your culture, like it is with American Indians, then a vast majority of the time your doing it just to be "cool." I'm sorry, but if you need drugs to encounter some kind of spirtual feeling, then you are shallow to begin with.

People believe you can just access spirituality from doing drugs. It's something that is ALWAYS in you. You don't go to your spiritual side, its just always there. I don't want to sound like a hippy, but its true. Doing drugs to try to get spiritual because you don't like religion doesn't make you wise or ancient, it makes you an idiot and a stoner.

Do drugs because you want to get high. Don't act like it makes you creative or any of that bullshit. If you are not creative to begin with, it won't make you any moreso.

Would I do drugs again? Possibly. Do I seek to get high? Not really.

[mburbank]

"Do drugs because you want to get high"
...

"Would I do drugs again? Possibly. Do I seek to get high? Not really."

So... then... you would do drugs again possibly to be "cool"?

[VinceZeb]

I would do drugs for the sole purpose of getting high and screwed up. Not to be "cool".

[mburbank]

So then, what did you mean by:

"Would I do drugs again? Possibly. Do I seek to get high? Not really."


IF you did drugs again (and you imply you might) Would you THEN be seeking to be 'high'?

And when you did 'hash' and 'weed', were you at that point attempting to be 'cool', or seeking to be 'high'?

[kellychaos]

I'm with the general conscesus here ... weed and alcohol. I DO have a question, though ... and bear in mind that I'm not really the creative, artistic type. Anyway, if it takes drugs to explore the mind and bring new things to his art (whatever that may be), how is somebody supposed to understand that work when: a) the creator's head is not in the same place as when he created the work b) the observer of the artwork more than likely has not experienced said drug and, if so, it doesn't mean that he was "there" where the artist was and is, therefore in no better position to understand the work. Does my question make sense to anyone? Maybe it will after you ingest a lil' sumpin' sumpin ... fo' shizzle. :)

[FS]

It wouldn't be all that different from being inspired by dreams. If someone would actually write a book while under the influence of hallucinogenics, then I guess nobody could make much sense out of it. But they'd have to write really, really fast. That's why I was looking more for inspiration in the memory of hallucinations.

As for visual art, it's not necessary to understand it. And eitherway, everyone would experience the drug in their own way, so that would do little to change the appreciation for the art or writing.

[Vibecrewangel]

Kelly -

Have you ever looked at fractals? Those are just about best interpretation of lsd closed eye visuals. Open eye is very much like the background art from Nightmare Before Christmas. Very dark and pointy, edgy and evil.

Mushrooms are more like Dali. Everything seems to be melting or stretching.

MDMA and MDA tend to give me a tribal tatoo visual. Like a shadow on any pale object. Skin, walls, ceilings......

As for the mental aspect......it is different every single time.

Oh....and I can't draw or paint and it sucks 'cause I'd love for others to see what is in my head......


Zeb -

I've always been very very spiritual. When I started to drugs it was mostly to see what it was all about. What I discovered was that there is an apect to certain drugs that is very much like being in a deep meditative trance. Mushroom especially.
Also, the way that I view religion...all religion becomes a bit deeper or a bit different when I am high. Sometimes this is a good thing sometimes it is a bad thing. AMT sucked all the spirit out of the world for me. The world was a machine. I was a machine nothing more. Being very spiritual this was not what I expected. However, though it was not the most enjoyable, I decided to see where it would take me as opposed to just letting it become a bad trip(it was still bad). What it ended up doing was giving me a new way to think about my dyslexia and my panic attacks. Though I still have problmes with numbers, I have since taken on some accounting at work. I also got over my fear of driving (not while high....after) and finally at 29 got my licence and bought a car. Though I don't have any desire to do AMT again, I am quite intrigued by the fact that it seemd to tweak my perceptions enough to make me believe that as a machine I could be reprogramed to get past certain obsticals. This kind of thing by the way is what facinates me about drugs. Psychedelics especially.

But, like everything else in my life I have to be honest about things. Do I drugs for the spiritual aspect? Not often. Do I do it for the mental exploration? Sometimes. Out of curiosity? More often than not. Because I enjoy the high? DING DING DING. However, if the trip leads to something else, and for me it usually does, I count myself lucky. More than once I have found a new way too look at a problem while tripping. Most of the time tunnel vision is impossible. There is an opening of the mind that allows new possabilities and new concepts to flow more freely. The down side, sometimes they don't make sense the next day......

DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT THINK THAT DRUGS ARE A GOOD THING. THEY ARE NOT SAFE. THEY ARE NOT A GAME. AND I HATE LITTLE STUPID PARTY HEADS WHO DUMB SHIT AND GET HURT. HOWEVER, JUST LIKE DRIVING OR DRINKING OR SKYDIVING OR SNOWBOARDING......DRUGS CAN BE SAFER (NEVER SAFE) IF YOU TAKE PROPER PRECAUTIONS.
Also, I admit I am an anomally. I will delve into my bad trips just as deeply as I do my good ones. I am just so damned interested in seeing when they are going and what my brain is trying to tell me (if anything at all) My S/O on the other hand.....he is Captain Denial. He bad trips on everything. And thinks I am a freak because I enjoy my bad trips as much as my good ones.

Anyhoo.....off my soapbox......

[Vibecrewangel]

Proto -

I think I got most of your question in with Zebs, however.....

Psychedelics do tend to open your perceptions a bit. They make it a bit harder to be stubborn about a concept or a particular line of thought.

Can people do the same without drugs? Sure, but most people are too stubborn to admit when there are other possibilities. Sometimes, psychedelics can break that down.

[VinceZeb]

Say if I went over to Japan, and some hot girl dressed up like a playboy bunny wanted to go smoke a little weed and have sexual intercourse, I would be there in a microsecond. But I don't go out and buy drugs or seek to get high. I don't spend my money or do it every single time it is offered. So, I would get high if certain circumstances presented themselves but I am not a druggie.

I don't think drugs are a good thing either, but you might as well make items such as pot and shrooms legal. They are on the level with beer and you would more than likely see a reduction in usage if the whole persona of being a "rebel" status item was lifted.

[Vibecrewangel]

You're a pig.


















I respect that.

[sadie]

i've smoked pot, opium, and hash; inhaled nitrous oxide; taken acid; and eaten mushrooms. weed is the only of these i partake of regularly. until new year's eve two years ago, it had been eight years since i'd tripped. and i haven't since that time. but each time i have has been a horizon-widening, spiritually creative experience.

i'm innately spiritual; i've no delusions that my spirituality is without me. the drugs merely enhance the growing process, kinda like eating carrots improves vision.

the negative experiences i had using psychedelics early on were products of my insecurities. the first time i took acid, i was nineteen and i had no fucking clue who i was. all the same, i was a prickly bundle of egocentricity and in-your-face-ness. lsd jumpstarted my facade-stripping, truth-seeking journey. it enabled me to see past the veneer of what-should-be. i thank god for it. literally.

i finally found some shrooms just this week. yay. so next week, i'm gonna do some additional research. http://sadie.dgostation.com/emoticons/weee.gif

[Vibecrewangel]

That's exactly why I am glad I waited.....though I missed out on years of soul searching :grin

At 19 I really believe I would have destroyed myself. My family life was horrible. I was very depressed. I was a very confused Neo-pagan in all the bad ways that one can be.

Doing it after I gained some stability within myself has kept me from going down the path my little sister is on.



Have fun with the shrooms! Hands down my favorite I think!

[VinceZeb]

Yes Vibe, I am a pig. I have a penis and am glad that a bunch of guys tried to build a tower to reach God and then God made everyone look and speak different, so we are treated to the most beautiful women in the world of all different races and ethnic groups. And I am glad you respect that.

[mburbank]

"Say if I went over to Japan, and some hot girl dressed up like a playboy bunny wanted to go smoke a little weed and have sexual intercourse, I would be there in a microsecond."
-Vince.

What, you mean with you? Don't you think that's a little unlikely? And why Japan? Can you not even write down sex that didn't happen without mentioning race? Why is this alleged woman dressing up as playboy bunny? If she dressed up say as a naughty nurse, would you still go? Does she need to 'smoke a little weed' in order to have sex with you? And what if it was 'maryjane' or 'ganja' or 'herb' or she wanted to 'spark up a doobie'? Most importantly, how does what you've written answr any question anyone asked you?

Are you saying that while you wouldn't use drugs to 'look cool' and you don't seek to 'get high', you would use drugs if it led to sex in japan with a 'hot girl' dressed as a 'playboy bunny'? And aren't you kind of an idiot?

[sadie]

although i'm sure it would kill my charismatic christian parents, they helped instill me with a sense that i could tackle anything. i was still an insecure little bitch, but i was able to delve into the depths of the "bad" trips, much as you explained yourself doing earlier. though, as i typed that, i realized it might have a lot to do with my experiencing depression early on following a series of intense loss.

[Vibecrewangel]

I still think I am more of a pig then most men.

Now where is Glow so we can discuss BUTT SEX?!?!?!?!

[sadie]

i have a secret. ;)

[Vibecrewangel]

Oooooh
Do tell.....


You can whisper it to me!

[sadie]

i had a new experience this week. ;)

[Vibecrewangel]

I'm so jealous!

[VinceZeb]

Butt sex... ugh. Sorry, Ill pass.


I thought I would be a bit creative, Max. Should I never mention race at all, or should I just mention blue-eyed, blonde women? The "master" race. Is that what you would prefer, Max? IS THAT WHAT YOU WOULD PERFER ME HAVING INTERCOURSE AND PARTAKE IN ILLEGAL HALLOUGENTS WITH, MAX? Someone of the "master" race? You’re a fucking closet Nazi. The World Church of the Creator is calling Max. Move to Peoria, Ill. Right now.


Sorry if I am a bit more descriptive with women and situations than the average “She had big tits and nice legs and I did her in the bathroom” speeches. I can dumb it down for you if you would like. But I will make damn sure next time that the women I describe are fit enough for your approval, Furor Burbank.

[sadie]

god, vince, are you as stupid as you make yourself seem?

[Vibecrewangel]

Okay I just have to mention that there is something really disturbing about discussing Communism, butt sex and drugs on a message board while singing the Lady Bug Picnic song to a 18 month old on the phone......

[kellychaos]

Hmmm ... must be the drugs. :/

[Vibecrewangel]

LOL





So sadie.......hints in the new experience?

[mburbank]

If your secret is about Butt sex, it isn't a secret.

DAMN YOU, INTERNET!

Vincey; I'm sorry, you are being stupid so fast I'm posts behind!

"I have a penis and am glad that a bunch of guys tried to build a tower to reach God and then God made everyone look and speak different, so we are treated to the most beautiful women in the world of all different races and ethnic groups."
-Vince

Wait a second here, wait just a second, are you saying you have thing about women of other races!?! Whoah. Hang on a sec, I just need to digest that, I didn't see it coming. It's so out of left field. I mean, I never ould have guessed since you are totally incapble of mentioning sex without including some sort of racial categorization. But I'm sure tht doesn't say anything about you. Never mind.

"Should I never mention race at all, or should I just mention blue-eyed, blonde women"

Well, what about if you were capable of mentioning your alleged sex life without giving the girls race ever What would that be like? And see, if you describe your alleged partner as "the master race"? You're pretty much still doing it. You are fetishizing their race. No one cares. This is just your pigged out version of "Some of my best friends are Negroes!"

"I can dumb it down for you if you would like."

I find that really hard to even imagine. 'hot li'l Latina' and girls dressed as bunnies smokin' weed and gettin' it on in Japan may strike you as 'descriptive' but I'm not sure (beyond obsessively mentioning race) it rises above "She had big tits and nice legs and I did her in the bathroom”

"She was japanese and dressed as a bunny and I did her in Japan"

Congratulations, Shakespeare.

[sspadowsky]

god, vince, are you as stupid as you make yourself seem?

Yes. Yes, he is. But I hope he never leaves. He is the most entertaining lunatic to come to this board since Khakha.
________
Mercedes-Benz Fintail Specifications (http://www.mercedes-wiki.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_Fintail)

[kellychaos]

If your secret is about Butt sex, it isn't a secret.

DAMN YOU, INTERNET!

Vincey; I'm sorry, you are being stupid so fast I'm posts behind!



There's not enough bandwidth in the world to keep up with Vince, Max.

[Protoclown]

I swear if I had to pay a subscription fee to access these posts where Burbank tears VinceZeb a new one, I would pay it gladly. These threads are fucking priceless. :lol

I have always personally viewed drugs as a crutch, and it's one that I don't need. But hey, to each their own. I see some people using them, having fun, and not hurting anybody, so that's cool by me.

I take more seriously art created or epiphanies that are reached without drugs though.

[sadie]

Vincey; I'm sorry, you are being stupid so fast I'm posts behind!
:lol

and sspad, did you get what those cd's?

[Vibecrewangel]

Lots of things are crutches......

NERO and SCA and LARPing in my group are the ultimate escapism for people who are unhappy with who they are. (I know.....I've used it as such)

But yeah.....drugs are a big one. It's why I usually don't use it for answer seeking. Just like life, if it comes......it comes.

[sadie]

I take more seriously art created or epiphanies that are reached without drugs though.

ahem. (http://www.soveriegn.freeservers.com/drugs.htm)

psst. that was a link. ;)

[mburbank]

You know what's huge crutch? Crutches.

Sometimes though, if you have a broken leg? A Cructh sure cn come in handy.

That's why I like Crank.

[sadie]

people use food as a crutch, too. shall we encourage starvation? oh, wait. we already do.

[VinceZeb]

Wow, Max. I am sorry that my appreciate for all different aspects of women offends you and makes you uncomfortable. I apologize that I am a young male that likes to date with all different kinds of women. I appreciate the beauty of women and like to see what different kinds and types of women have to offer and what they are like.

I am sorry you are jealous that I have an expanded worldview. I am sorry that you are so bored with your wife and your sexual experiences that you lash out at someone that (supposedly) has broader horizons than yourself. I am sorry that I am the "multicultural" type of person that you worship and yet are not. I apologize for having an interesting life while you live in your little shithole redundant home with your boring wife and your child and work in your little museum and do every day the types of jobs that are tedious, boring and unfulfilling. I apologize for having a life and having dreams and being able to reach for them. I apologize that I am not you, Max. Although, if you had it your way, you would want everyone to be like you. But let me give you a little tip, Max:

If two people are exactly alike, there is no need for one of them.

You are just a nice little bland cog in the machine, Max. You are easily replaced. Sorry about that. But keep insulting me. If that makes you feel good in life and protects you as you enter mid-life crisis, go right ahead. Or better yet, buy a sports car and quit being a little punk bitch.

[Protoclown]

Burbank made me :lol

And I'm not saying that art created on drugs has no merit whatsoever, but I personally would feel like I "cheated" if I created something that came from drugs rather than purely straight from me, you know?

[Vibecrewangel]

Damn you Max....

I spit yogurt all over my desk......


And I hate crank.....in fact I really don't like any amphetamine....even caffeine makes me moody as hell. Okay...insta-bitch is a better term.

[Miss Modular]

Wow, Vibe, I've really enjoyed reading your posts. You actually seem to offer some real insights into why someone might take psychedelics, instead of just, "Whoa!!! It was an intense experience!!!" If any of you have read Bluelight (http://www.bluelight.nu/), you know exactly what I'm talking about.

I've actually considered taking psychedelics. I'm really not interested in taking it right now, mostly because I have a ton of other things to worry about. Besides, I wouldn't do it without someone who's had actually had experience, and it's nothing I'd do at a party.

[mburbank]

Hey, Vibe, don't knock metaphetamines until you've tried them and tried them and tried them and sold everything you had becuase you understand now that sleep is what keeps human beings from EVOLVING INTO BEING CRANK FULED CREATURES OF PURE ENERGY!

Vince. Never, never has anyone so completely understood what I was saying to them. I'm moved. Seriously. You? The wind beneath my wings. No shit. You see right through me.

I've been called a lot of things in my life, but Bland is a new one. Are you sure your using the right word?

And Laws, Vince, SOMEBODY has to make fun of you. Otherwise you'd be doing it all by yourself.

[Vibecrewangel]

Thanks Mod. I really believe in responsible drug use. This means being honest about both the negative and the positive aspects of things. Lying about either side is part of what gets people killed.
That whole E is perfectly safe thing is a load of crap. However, real MDMA is not as dangerous as the anti-drug people would have you think. Generally it is the cut that get's ya.

I really do dislike the whole party mentality. Though I will admit my first time was E at a massive. Not that cool. I prefer a safe environment. I don't drop at "normal" raves any more. Though with the Psytrance crowd it is a very different thing.

[sadie]

there's something to be said for brevity, vince.

and am i missing something from another thread? i know i haven't been frequenting this forum in the last while, but i don't see where max did anything but point out your race-related descriptions.

[Protoclown]

And Laws, Vince, SOMEBODY has to make fun of you. Otherwise you'd be doing it all by yourself.

:lol :love

[Vibecrewangel]

Christ Max......I tried to kill people because the Hydroxycut was too speedy. F'n ephedra and caff.

Of course.....maybe enough crank and it would be like that movie Powder (get it hahahah) where the albino guy turns into pure light.


Yeah...enough speed and I might become pure light.

[Anonymous]

Some people take drugs to have hallucinations
Some people take drugs to stop having hallucinations
Everyone always wants what they don't have! Like curly hair and straight hair. What a crazy mixed up world!


Anyway, Max you are just fantastic.

[Vibecrewangel]

Sadie - Cool link!

Mod - Bluelight is full of party head morons. Dancesafe is better for checking on pills and Erowid is better for general information.

Proto - Totally understand! Art is all about perception. Including that of the artist. If it feels less real to the artist because of how it was created than that is what it is to the only person who matters.

[mburbank]

You didn't see it 'cause I didn't do it.

This is all Vince's interpretation of my thoughts.

I'd like it better if it was an interpretive dance, but we can't have everything.

[mburbank]

This thread is going too fast!

MUST! HAVE! MORE! CRANK!


I'm kidding about the crank.



That stuff is for itty bitty babies.



Doopa is sweet. So are Vibe and Sadie. I'd say proto was sweet too but that is homo and if I'm not about hating the homo, what am I about. Vince is a shaved ape.

[glowbelly]

butt sex is fun :)

[Vibecrewangel]

Butt sex GOOD
Crank BAD

[Vibecrewangel]

Doopa made me lol

[FS]

And I'm not saying that art created on drugs has no merit whatsoever, but I personally would feel like I "cheated" if I created something that came from drugs rather than purely straight from me, you know?

All depends on the perspective, I think. My theory on hallucinogenic drugs is something along the lines of, your subconscious taking the wheel of your imagination and putting the pedal to the metal. To me, the drugs are only stimulants and don't do anything but tap into parts of your mind and boost them.

I wouldn't, however, expect something brilliant to come out of it, as if we're all geniuses under the right stimulation. What you make under the influence would probably be nothing more than weird... but probably also very, very original.

[Protoclown]

I can understand that, FatSatan...but I just want to challenge myself to come up with creative shit on my own, without any of that kind of help. I guess it all really does come down to what our individual perceptions are. But I personally could not be satisfied with coming up with ideas if I did it while under the influence of some drug.

And to address what Doopa said...I WANT STRAIGHT HAIR :(

[Anonymous]

get a straightening iron

[VinceZeb]

Ouch! Max called me a shaved ape. What's more pathetic, Max? A 22 year old hanging out on a board with others of his same age, or a 40+ year old hanging out with 20-somethings on a message board?

Had to speel something correctly. Thanks for pointing that out, gw.

[Protoclown]

What's more pathetic, Max? A 22 year old hanging out on a board with others of his same age, or a 40+ year old hanging out with 20-somethings on a message board?

I'll go with "whichever one you are". That answer seems to work.

[glowbelly]

Ouch! Max called me a saved ape.

:lol

[mburbank]

He's saying 'ouch' because those cuts sting like the bejesus when you salve up.

"What's more pathetic, Max? A 22 year old hanging out on a board with others of his same age, or a 40+ year old hanging out with 20-somethings on a message board? "

Good question, Vince. What's more pathetic? A well spoken 40 year old (and I'm not even the oldest one here anymore, thanks) hanging out in an intelligent community and not caring overmuch how old folks are as long as they've got something to say, sharpening his writing skills, entertaining friends and learning things...

or...

a 22 year old who shares only average age with a community that finds him ignorant, laughable, mean spirited and possibly insane and in all probabilty a pathalogical liar? Before you leap to defend yourself aginst these charges, I'm just saying, that's the general view of the community you find yourslef in. You'll clkaim you don't care, it's just for fun, and yet, here you are, a laughingstock.

I'm so stumped. Which IS more pathetic?

[kellychaos]

You ever try and kill a snake Max? My brother and I killed a snake and it took hours and hours too die. Even though it looked dead, it's heart was still beating. I hope that inspires you a bit in your crusade. Eye of the tiger Max ... eye of the tiger! :)

[sadie]

vince, you've spouted so much off-topic, stupid-to-the-point-of-questionable-sanity shit, you could forevermore copy and paste from that nice little thread of quotes someone so kindly made you. or better yet, you could just let me velcro your fat arse there.

[VinceZeb]

Yes, but there is a huge difference between you and me, Max. You care about this place and I could give a shit less.

[mburbank]

Hey, That explains why you spend so much time here!

[Protoclown]

Which is EXACTLY what makes you more pathetic. Don't you get it??

[The Unseens girrrl]

drugs are great for spiritual exploration! they open ur mind up sooooo much! :) :) :) :) i love them all :) :) :)

[VinceZeb]

I don't really spend that much time on this board.

[AChimp]

No, but in a few weeks you have ended up with approximately the same number of posts as I have on this board. To put this in perspective, I had more than 15,000 posts on the old I-Mockery board, and THIS board has only been around for a couple months.

I take a few months to break 500, you take mere weeks.

Now, who spends lots of time here? :lol

[Helm]

I never have, or currently partake in neither alcohol or drugs, or tobacco for that matter. I consider happiness that is drug-induced a cowardly choice, so I cannot speak from experience on the subject.
Freedom is more important that being happy. However, even if drugs were completely addiction-free, I still wouldn't use them since I consider the dulling of the senses and mind to be the surrendering of one's freedom on a much more essential level that it would be to restrain one's physical capability.


As for spirituality, I consider it a crutch, be it drug-induced or not.

[Vibecrewangel]

I find it interesting that many hardcore anti-drug people make reference to drugs dulling the senses.

[Protoclown]

All the people I've been around while they're on drugs have their minds and senses visibly dulled. Maybe I just haven't seen people on the right drugs, but that's all I've witnessed so far.

[Vibecrewangel]

In what way did they seem dulled? And what substances if you know.

I used to hang around with high people before I got started to do drugs and I thought the same thing. Now, there are times I can look at someone who is high and I realize that when someone looks dulled it is actually the exact opposite.

Sometimes it is the body that can't keep up with the senses.

[Protoclown]

Mostly pot (yeah, of course that makes people slow) and acid. I don't really know specifics on others, just people who you know are "fucked up" on something, but you don't know what (could also be pot or acid, for all I know, so my observations may be quite limited).

I agree with Helm on the point of drugs being a cowardly thing, but mostly with regard to the idea of people using drugs as a means to cope with whatever problems happen to be bothering them at the time (which goes along with what he said about "happiness", but not entirely/exactly). If people just want to have fun with drugs, I don't really see that as "cowardly" per se, I just haven't really seen any direct evidence that they seem to be all that fun. In fact, most of what I've seen points to the contrary. I've had several people who have quite a bit of experience with various drugs tell me that the most fun they've ever had was while sober. That an aritificial drug-induced high doesn't even begin to compare to a natural one. Of course, I'll never know myself. But the fact that several people who have done their fair share of drugs have told me this gives me more than enough reason to believe it.

And Helm, I salute you for your unwavering stance on drugs. I am very anti-drug myself, though I have become somewhat more accepting in recent years of what OTHER people do, it is still not for me and that will NEVER change. Never been drunk once in my life, never touched a cigarette or any kind of mind-altering substance. And if that forever dooms me to "not being cool", so be it.

[Vibecrewangel]

Actually Proto, I admire people like you and Helm. You don't bow to peer pressure. You have made a decision and have the conviction to stand by it.

I also agree with you when it comes to people using drugs to run from things. It's why I waited. I am still positive that had I done them earlier I would have become addicted and ended up being exactly the type of user I hate.


Pot, like alcohol is a depressant and does tend to dull things quite a bit. I don't drink at all, don't like pain killers or pot, pretty much not a depressant kind of gal. Also not into stimulants. I am even light on the caffeine as it makes me grouchy. Smoking.....ick...no thanks.


On acid I've found that the biggest problems tend to come when your mind has taken hold of a concept too big express. My favorite was when I grasped just how big infinity was. My brain got it (or believed it got it) but how exactly do you express that verbally?
Sometimes it is more like a stutter. Your brain is moving too fast for your mouth.

Oddly, with mushrooms I can see without my contacts in. And I'm not alone in that......

[Protoclown]

See though, I don't see why you need drugs to grasp some of these big concepts like infinity. I mean, I've thought about the concept of infinity to the point that I was COMPLETELY freaked out by exactly what that means, and I didn't need drugs to do it. I mean, maybe there's some "secret revelation" type of thing about it that you realized while you were on acid, but I doubt it's really any different than my own realizations and understandings that were achieved while sober.

There are all kinds of things you can achieve in a sober mental state, if you just start approaching things from a different perspective and thinking about them differently.

I think if I can achieve the same kind of affect WITHOUT drugs, then I am exercising my mind all the more.

[Helm]

I am very anti-drug myself, though I have become somewhat more accepting in recent years of what OTHER people do, it is still not for me and that will NEVER change. Never been drunk once in my life, never touched a cigarette or any kind of mind-altering substance. And if that forever dooms me to "not being cool", so be it.

I cannot respect a person that uses drugs, even if it's a casual thing.

I was a pretty heavy drinker up to my 16th year. It seems silly, but it's absurdly easy to get beer when you're 15 here, and I didn't know any better. I thought it was 'cool' and everything. I think I was addicted, and I finally got the hint when I started waking up in puddles of vomit in the park after nightly drinking sessions.

As to not being cool, heh, I've been called a square so many times by all sorts of shitfaced losers, I've began to take it as a compliment.

There are all kinds of things you can achieve in a sober mental state, if you just start approaching things from a different perspective and thinking about them differently.

I think if I can achieve the same kind of affect WITHOUT drugs, then I am exercising my mind all the more.

To take this a step further, if you discover a truth that you cannot put to words while high, then what good is it? How can you benefit from it?

All insight gained in altered states of consciousness is pretty much forfeit if it cannot be analysed and dissasembled in a logical manner.

[Protoclown]

I cannot respect a person that uses drugs, even if it's a casual thing.

I used to feel exactly the same way, but I've changed all that now. I've met some really great people who, unfortunately, use drugs for whatever reasaon. They have earned my respect.

It doesn't change the fact that I am and always will be disappointed when I learn that people I admire use drugs. That's something that I don't think will ever go away. I think when people use drugs, they are wasting themselves and their potential and that is very depressing to me.

A person is always capable of achieving greater things sober than high or drunk. I have never seen any evidence to contradict this.

[Vibecrewangel]

Having been very anti-drug myself I can completely understand both of your viewpoints. I respect them all the more because the way you both present them. Instead of the "Drugs are bad" with no qualifiers or reasons you both have extrememly good arguments behind your dislike.

Proto - Yes I have a come to almost all the same thoughts and realizations sober. Sometimes via some very heavy depression, sometimes while meditating, and sometimes I just have an epiphany. While high there is a difference in how deep or far you can go or how many ways you can get there. Sometimes this is not a good thing.

Helm - While I completely respect your point of view and I am in no way trying to change it, I do want to ask and say a few things to you.
First congratulations on getting over the alcohol. I persoanlly loath the stuff and I think it is far more dangerous than most other things out there. What you did is not easy. My mom died of alcoholism and addiction to speed. And when she was alive she was abusive in every way possible. (Think that might be why I have a problem with depressants and amphetamines? I think it has a lot to do with it.)
In my case the nice thing about the people I drop with is that we are honest with each other. If one of us is going too far or doing too much we let them know. This also keeps us from getting high to cope with a bad week or to deal with a bad situation. I for one will not drop unless my head is not in a bad place. That solves nothing and is one of the ways you become addicted. Not the path I want to take.
If people call you not cool for not partying then it is a compliment. It is people like that who have given drugs a bad name. They are also the ones that tend to be the idoits you have likely seen. Sadly, they tend to out number the exploreres and the psychonauts. They are also usually a younger crowd. Of my crew, at 29 I am the youngest and the least experienced.

Now......

if you discover a truth that you cannot put to words while high, then what good is it? How can you benefit from it?

Can you put love into words? How about hate? Or for those that have been there depression?

How about describing sex to someone who has never had it. The warm apple pie annalogy is a good one. But tell me if that would really make sense if you had never done the real deed.

If you had walked on the moon. Looked down upon the Earth. Could you really put that experience into words? Would the words you used ever even come close to what you felt, what you understood at that moment?

They say that a picture is worth thousand words. But sometinmes words are not enough. They are inadaquit (sp) far too much of the time. That is why Buddha taught without them. Once he held up a flower in front of a group of people and smiled at it. After a while 1 single man in the cowd began to smile too. Buddha knew the man had achieved enlightenment. Not from words, but from inate understanding of something.

Have yoiu ever met somone who just understands something? Language? MAth? How to code? A tinkerer who just knows how things work? A savant who can hear a piece of music once and replay it? Mozzart, never formally trained but could play anything he put his hands on. Bettoven (sp) deaf.......
Could they explain any of it to you?

None of these can be "analysed and dissasembled in a logical manner" but thay are just as valid and real.

Here is what I mean when it comes to drugs. The AMT experince I spoke of previously had a very odd moment in it. There was a point where I was "too high" and actually felt sober though the way I was thinking told me I wasn't. As the night wore on I could feel myself coming down, but at each plateau I felt higher.
Now take both your hands put one by your head and one by your hip and move the top one down and the bottom one up. PErceptually that is what it felt like. My body knew the drug was wearing off so I was knew I was coming down, but my brain was telling me it was the other direction. At the time I could feel and understand both.
There it is in words......but unless you have felt that there is no way to understand it.

I've been skydiving. I know what terminal velocity feels like. The opening sensation in your chest. The feeling that all movement has stopped. The sensation that all function in your body has stalled. There are the words, but do you really understand it?

For me, the drugs I have tried strip away the learned mind. They leave me with my intuitive mind unblocked. I find that I inately understand things.
It is very Zen. Knowing without knowing.

Proto - If infinity scares you......you'll get a kick out of this.....
The night that I grasped it was f'd up. My mind didn't just understand it, I felt all of my being surround it. That opening sensation you get at terminal velocity or when you are in love moved from my chest to encompass who I was. My boyfriend was unnerved because we had been talking when it happened. HE said that my eyes went blank, but looked full. I was crying and laughing and rocking like an autistic person. After a couple of minutes I came back and told him that life and death are amazing. Then slipped off again.
What I saw and felt.....what I knew then and still feel sometimes now....I could never explain. It makes me cry to remember it. Not sadness not pain but pure joy that I touched something so big if even for a moment.

What I learned....that the human mind just ain't meant for that. What we are might be, but in this body.....no chance.

A minister said he thinks I met/touched God.
One of neuroscientists I work with said he thinks that thae synapses in a particular section of my brain all fired all at once causing a burst of brain activity that opened a door to understanding for a short time. (Short less scientific explination folks)

Regardless of what it was. I learned a lot from it.

Sorry.....that was way too long of a post....
Just wanted to get it out while I wasn't at work. :)

[VinceZeb]

A lot of posts has nothing to do with the quanity of time spent on a board.

[Vibecrewangel]

If you want to see a good movie that sums up a lot of the inate understanding concept see Pi.

[Helm]

That which cannot be put into words serves no communal function. It only is of significance to the one experiencing it. The world will not be bettered by a man's psychedelic experience, nor will it be better if said man is in love.

So, from a social materialistic point of view, this is a non-argument.

From a personal point of view, whereas the case you present is interesting, I tend to favour the scientific approach to explaining such phenomenae. The need to make the leap of faith from brain synapses to 'newfound understanding' is of questionable origin. It may lie in man's omnipresent ability to delude himself so as to feel the world a safer, more understandable place. The 'I understand infinity now! Oh how great is this world! Hold me tight." factor, so to speak. As strong as the sensation would be, there can be made no safe assertion that it indeed is of any real significance. My personal choice is that I do not care for the highs and lows I will experience in my life. I only care for knowledge, understanding, ultimately the result of those being the freedom to be unbound from human limitation and instinctual urge. I cannot see how quaffing pills or shooting up can further me in that path. If I can take the shortcut to see god in a drug, if my seeing god lies in the dependency of this drug, I'd rather not see god, and take the long, taxing way there.

[AChimp]

Everyone that I know who regularly does drugs is either a) working at a minimum wage job with no ambition or b) perma-fried.

This includes all the gangstas, skaters, Goths and ravers. The ravers especially.

[The Unseens girrrl]

i prefer the word 'perma-stoned'

[Vibecrewangel]

Helm -
I think we are on the same path. We just chose a different way to travel it.
If it were legal to test certain drugs scientifically then a lot of the answers would be found via your prefered method. As it is, it is people like Timothy Leary and Dr. Shulgin who paved the way for people like me to continue as safely as possible down this particular path.
If you are ever interested in the scientific aspect of psychedelics read either TiKal or PiKal by Shulgin.

Chimp -
I work at Stanford Med School. Neuroscience department. And I don't think my brain is fried.

[VinceZeb]

If people want to do them, let them. But we should not support them by force with our tax dollars when they decide to clean up their fucked up life. They can pay for their own mess. Everyone else pretty much has to.

[Vibecrewangel]

More tax money goes to fight the ineffectual War on Drugs then will ever get spent on helping people clean up.


Though much like abortion I have to say your issue - you pay for it.

[VinceZeb]

The War on Drugs is ineffective. We don't crack down like we should. If kids want to do drugs, let them. And when they want to keep shooting up, give them a nice abonded house to sit in and a full needle of high-grade heroin. Then wipe your hands clean. The govt's job is not to take care of people who choose to fuck up their lives.

[Vibecrewangel]

I'm not even sure what to make of that post Vince.......

[VinceZeb]

It's the truth. As a Christian, I want to help people out and get them out of that rut of drugs. Had to witness what it does to people at a VERY young age. Not pretty. But when it comes to the govt, it should not steal our money to help people out that will just go and get fucked up again and again. The govts job is not to correct fuck ups. That is for the person who fucked up to do. Anyone else wants to help, they should and I encourage that, but do not force people to.

No one sticks a joint in your mouth, a pill down your throat, spoon to your nose, or a needle in your arm. YOU have to make that choice.

[Vibecrewangel]

That I agree with.

[Protoclown]

A lot of posts has nothing to do with the quanity of time spent on a board.

Did you mean "quality" or "quantity"? You said neither and now I'm unclear on what the hell you meant.

[Vibecrewangel]

Combination of the 2 maybe?

[theapportioner]

General question, tossed up for anyone to grab:

What about drugs to treat depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia... Alzheimers?

[Vibecrewangel]

For some people they are fantastic though the side effects are harsh.


Prozac for me was worse than the depression it was supposed to fight. I'd also like to add that I wanted someone to talk too. Not a drug pusher who spent 15 min a month with me talking about nothing but how the dosage was working.

[Protoclown]

General question, tossed up for anyone to grab:

What about drugs to treat depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia... Alzheimers?

They're certainly right for some people, not so right for others. I guess it depends on the situation and where their brain is chemically.

There's no doubt that there are plenty of drugs out there that many people benefit from in medical use.

[theapportioner]

What about these drugs in relation to your ethics on illegal drugs, alcohol, and tobacco i.e. regarding them as crutches?

[Protoclown]

Well, to be clear, it's not really an ethical matter to me so much as it is a matter of common sense and survival. I personally don't see the wisdom in engaging in willfully self-destructive behavior, but you see people participating in it all the time.

It seems rather counter-productive to survival (or continued well-being if you don't want to go that far) to purposely take drugs that harm your body, or debilitate you to the point that you cannot take care of or defend yourself under the influence. Frankly, I don't see the appeal. Never have, and probably never will.

As for those other drugs that are doctor prescribed, the main difference as I see it is that those drugs are almost necessary for certain people to get by and function normally in day-to-day life. So in some cases, taking drugs IS conducive to their continued well-being. In other cases it's not (and some doctors seem all too eager to fill out a prescription as an 'easy fix' to ailments), but I suppose that depends on the individual situation.

In my mind that is quite a different beast from people who take drugs recreationally for the express purpose of getting "fucked up beyond belief" or those who want to run away from whatever problems they have and take the drugs to forget or cope.

Perhaps the term "crutches" isn't really the best to use here, since an actual crutch IS in all likelihood necessary for someone who has broken a leg to get around. Whereas when I speak of it in a drug sense, I am talking about almost quite the opposite...something that ISN'T necessary by any means, but is used as a means of avoiding the problem and running away.

[Vibecrewangel]

Proto, can I asume that also applys to people who abuse legal perscritpion drugs?
















Or eat themselves into oblivion in the bottom of a quart of cookie dough ice cream.......

[Protoclown]

Well, yes. Of course. At least for the first part.

The second bit, it seems that you're half joking, but there's still a valid point you raise there. I do see the second example as a sign of personal weakness (and we all have those, so I'm not trying to sound as if I'm expressing disapproval here), but it's not something that has potentially serious and harmful consequences, unless one engages in that sort of behavior often enough for it to become a health issue.

It's still a coping mechanism, however, though without the same immediate harming (and addictive, though one could get addicted to the behavior) potential. This really branches into a totally different discussion here, but running away from problems (by whatever method) is no good way to live. We're all guilty of it to some degree, I'm sure, but I think it's important to strive to better ourselves and overcome these types of things. I just can't even fathom the idea of going through life without trying to constantly improve myself.

[kellychaos]

If you want to see a good movie that sums up a lot of the inate understanding concept see Pi.

In the book Keys To Infinity, Clifford Pickover states that running out the value of Pi more than six decimals or so is of no scientific value, really, as it doesn't have a lot of practical use past that point and serves as more of a scientific curriosity. The goal at that point is more of a mathematical "one ups manship" on the part of mathemeticians. That being said, what does that say of drugs in relation to the arts? Is there a point where one just has to say "Enough!" ? :)

[Protoclown]

What the hell does that have to do with the movie "Pi"?

[kellychaos]

What the hell does that have to do with the movie "Pi"?

Here is part of review about the movie "Pi":

The film follows Max, a brilliant but troubled soul who crunches numbers to predict the order of nature. He follows the stock market religiously, not for financial gain but to prove there is a predictable order to the system. Max's reclusive lifestyle and antisocial behavior keeps almost everyone away, and his only friend is a former teacher, Sol.

In his search for a predictable order to the universe, Max stumbles across a 216-digit number that some Jewish scholars believe is the name of God. Sol warns Max to forget what he saw and concentrate on other pursuits, but his discovery becomes an obsession that could destroy him.

Besides the Jewish community pursuing him for his discovery, a Wall Street analysis firm relentlessly chases Max for his accurate stock market predictions. Between the two, the reclusive Max is forced into the public eye and to the brink of insanity.

My point is that certain pursuits render themselves meaningless after a while when they lead to just plain obsession with no practical benefits forthcoming. What practical purpose does it serve using drugs to chase the "art rainbow", so to speak, when no one understands your meaning or even to point where your art is not even aesthetically pleasing anymore but just plain disturbing, disgusting, or whatever. I'm just asking here.

[Vibecrewangel]

Kelly -

I was reffering to a subplot of the movie.

Max has inate ability to see everything in the world mathmatically.
There is a scene where he is looking at the trees and sees them as a fractal.

[Protoclown]

I've seen "Pi", Kelly. I just didn't see how your post related to the movie. Didn't see the point you were trying to make. Right! Carry on then!

[kellychaos]

I've seen "Pi", Kelly. I just didn't see how your post related to the movie. Didn't see the point you were trying to make. Right! Carry on then!

:) :chuckle I guess that it's having multiple layers is part of what makes it a good movie. Both Vibe and myself were both using the movie to make a certain point but were both on completely different tangents. I guess that I could have made my point more clearly but I thought that I was going along the same track that Vibe was. :/ I guess I got derailed ... the mind's a fractal thing as well. :)

[Protoclown]

I'm not sure it's that you were unclear so much as I probably just missed the point. :)

[ziggytrix]

I think there is clearly a point at which one says "enough". It's the point at which you begin to destroy yourself. Moderation and responsibility are the keys to knowing that point.

Drugs are not for children.

[mburbank]

Except for Riddlin which should be over the counter and eaten like Pez.

[kellychaos]

Kelly -

I was reffering to a subplot of the movie.

Max has inate ability to see everything in the world mathmatically.
There is a scene where he is looking at the trees and sees them as a fractal.

Indeed. According to my interpretation, not only did he see the whole world mathematically, he thought that even the future was predestined occording to a mathetical model and could be fortold. Not really a new concept really. Isaac Newton thought he could do the same using calculus and classical physics. That works well for certain fields of physics such as astrology but not so well in certain micro-fields such an fluid dynamics and subatomic theory where chaos theory reigns supreme. Perhaps there will someday be a reconciliation of the two, such as String Theory, that will serve as an adequate mathematical model of nature in the future. Until then ...

[kellychaos]

Combination of the 2 maybe?

It's funny that you guys mention the idea of looking at the world both quantitatively and qualitatively in conjunction with a thread that discusses both art and science. It brings to mind the book Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Pirsig who discuss the split between science and theology ... when and why the split occured ... two different ways people can view the world ... ect. Pretty interesting points are made in the book. Has anyone read it?

[glowbelly]

Except for Riddlin which should be over the counter and eaten like Pez.

:lol

[Vibecrewangel]

Okay Kelly....now I am weirded out.

You are the second person to bring up that book on this board and like the fifth or sixth who has brought it up to me.

Generally I stay away from any "Zen and the art of" books as they tend to be some wierd bastardized concepts of Zen.
But now I am intrigued as to why so many people have read this particular one.

[kellychaos]

Generally I stay away from any "Zen and the art of" books as they tend to be some wierd bastardized concepts of Zen.
But now I am intrigued as to why so many people have read this particular one.

Don't let the title throw you. It's not a bastardization of Zen philosophy. If anything, it's more along the lines of layman's guide to classical western/european philosopy with, at best, some eastern influences.

[Vibecrewangel]

Very interesting.......I must look into this.