I Don't Get The Catholic Confession Thing

[kellychaos]

Explain please. Personally, I don't understand it. Isn't your relationship with God, and thus, your need for atonement more a personal thing between yourself and God? What right does a priest have (aside from a lifelong study of religion, I guess :( ) to tell you how bad your sins are, how to repent (in ways to me that seem ritualistic and dated), ect? Are priests the only ones that can relay your message to God ... at a price. Sort of like a spiritual fax ... funny, I never thought of church as a Kinkos. Just sayin' :/

[CastroMotorOil]

learn about the religion before you criticize. Jesus forgave sins i nthe bible as did his apostales after him. Bishops nad priets are the succesors to the apostles thus the powers have been passed down from priest to priest. Before i go further iam no longer catholic but still have a tiny place in my heart for it. It is nto a fax machine for sins. Catholics fully beleive god can forgive you alone for sins. But peopel like going though an "official" source for guidence and unload their problems to another person.
if i screwed anything up feel free to correct me.

[VinceZeb]

Kelly, go to http://www.catholic.com/

[mburbank]

Jeeze, Vince, can't you offer your own explanation? I mean, you studied to be a Priest for two years, doesn't the question even interest you?

[VinceZeb]

Why sit out there and type something that is going to take a fucking day to do when I can just post a link that will say the same thing, only more eloquently?

[mburbank]

While I don't for a moment doubt the site would be more elloquent, I just thought this would have been a fine opportunity to demonstrate the nuanced knoweldge of Catholocism you acquired during your two years of study for the Priesthood.

I was so impressed with your earlier statements that Popes had to be against wars and that while a catholic you didn't need to take the Popes view very seriously, I was wondering just where you fell on the subject of the neccesity of intercession. I mean, it's fairly big difference between the two major branches of Chrsitianity, I thought it might have sparked your interest as a former student of religion.

[kellychaos]

learn about the religion before you criticize

I wasn't criticizing. I was asking about something that doesn't make sense to me. Please don't take offense.

Jesus forgave sins i nthe bible as did his apostales after him. Bishops nad priets are the succesors to the apostles thus the powers have been passed down from priest to priest

Were'nt they saints, though? Are all priests deserving of this honor? I don't believe that the term "confession" came into vernacular until the middle ages when the church was taking bribes and tributes disguised as pennance as a way for those who hoped to get into heaven. I know all churches have their faults but this is surely not an area that speaks well for catholicism. What may have started out as a sincere way to get parishoners thoughts known to God seems to have been bastardized during the middle ages. It was one of the sticking points for Martin Luther as well. I'm not trying to convert anyone here as I'm not particularly religious person. I just don't get the ideology behind it. I don't think that priests are in any way more qualified to offer atonement and/or to communicate with God than the average person who's living a catholic (or whatever denomination) life.

It is nto a fax machine for sins. Catholics fully beleive god can forgive you alone for sins.

Why the middle man? That's my point.

But peopel like going though an "official" source for guidence and unload their problems to another person..

I can see your point about guidance as priests (or any other religious leader) has spent their lives in religious study. To me, the sticking point is whether the "average joe" can communicate with God WITHOUT the assistance of a priest. I believe it only serves as a way to put the "little people" in their place ... that they're not good enough for direct communication with God. It's kind of condescending really and seems to destroy a sincere relationship with God.

[mburbank]

I could answer this question, but I'm just a Jew and my knowledge of Catholocism surely pails before Vince, who says he studied to be a Priest for two years.

I really think he should be the one explaining intercession.

[glowbelly]

psst: he's doing his reasearch right this very moment, i'm sure of it.

[kellychaos]

:lol research consists of cut and paste comments taken out of context and lunatic ravings that have no basis in reality ... I'm starting to get it. :)

[mburbank]

But... But....

He STUDIED to be a PRIEST!

For TWO YEARS!

He SAID so! I mean, I know it seems really, really, really unlikely, and he hardly seems to be the type of person who'd have even concidered the Priesthood, let alone study for it, but he SAID so, so I'm sure it's true!

[Vibecrewangel]

Personally, I like the way the movie Stigmata portrayed this.

[VinceZeb]

Stigmata was a stupid movie, but thats my opinion.

Hey, Max, I studied at St. Thomas Seminary in Hannibal, MO where my hometown is. Closed down about a year ago because of low enrollments. Sad day, really.

Glow, instead of talking when the big boys do, you should do something more constructive like making dinner or scrubbing a floor. And Max, should you be celebrating killing Christ today? 3PM is party time for ya'll.

[Vibecrewangel]

Zeb -

Why did you think it was stupid?

Is it such a stretch to think that the Church would hide something like the historical documents in the movie?

Honestly, though that type of information would make the religion stronger, it would make the Church weaker. And that is one of my biggest gripes with organized religion. Instead of being about God, most are more about the Church. A very sad difference if you ask me.

[mburbank]

Well, Laws Vince, show us some of what you learned. Two years is long time to study. Didn't they make you write any papers? Did you find your need for comparative boobie feeling and multi ethnic pleasures of the flesh too compelling to be compatable with a calling? And don't you still have a scholarly interest, at least enough to weigh in on intercession?

And as an Italian heir to the Roman Empire, shouldn't you be celebrating the state imposed death of Jesus?

[Protoclown]

The Pope is a vampire. 8-)

[kellychaos]

The Pope is a vampire. 8-)

I'm not going to take a stab at this since I flubbed the last attempt at a "Smashing Pumpkins" quote. :)

[VinceZeb]

Sorry, I am not Roman.

[Vibecrewangel]

Vince ignores me...... :(

First about ESL now about Stigmata.
Hopefully he'll respond to my post about hot Native American or South American women.

[mburbank]

Your Italian, though, right? I mean, you know, a REAL Italian, not some Imigrant Swede or something. So you have a direct genetic tie to the guys that crucified Jesus.

Whereas my roots, see come from a Mass conversion of Russians to Judaism about 600 years ago so I'm not even marginally mixed up with the tragic state execution of that poor misunderstood radical Rabi.

[glowbelly]

Glow, instead of talking when the big boys do, you should do something more constructive like making dinner or scrubbing a floor.

my penis is bigger than yours, vincey. i'd watch yourself. especially from behind.

[Vibecrewangel]

She does like the Butt Sex!

[El Blanco]

Anyone care for my 2 cents?

[Protoclown]

No, but if you want to give me 5 bucks, I'm game.

[mburbank]

Sure.


I mean, I am interested in the topic, and obviously Kelly is.


It may distract momentarily from my trying to get Father Vince to show us he did something during his two years of studying the priesthood by (insert your own joke about the current catholic sex scandal here).

[Sethomas]

Like I mentioned in my letter, I've studied the claims made in Stigmata extensively. The premise of the movie was utter shite, and the add-on saying that the Church has kept documents undercover is pure BS. They were referring to the Nag Hamadi codices, of which I have attended a lecture presented by a Catholic priest. You can find the texts online. You can see the originals in a museum in Egypt. No one can make a serious claim that they deserve the title "gospels" because they are clearly apocryphal literature from a Coptic break-off sect.

On confessions, it's always made sense to me. The act of confession has never had a pricetag on it, and it's existed since Old Testament times, I believe especially among the Levites. The abuse you're thinking of, Kelly, was the substitution of cash atonement for acts of penance, both of which were always said to only work with a truly sorrowful heart. This turned into the sale of indulgences, which saw its corruption by the 13th century. But the basic idea behind confession is that people have too much pride for it to work. If you just confess to yourself, even if you are genuinely sorry, you are operating under the same mind as which committed the sin itself. The priest serves as an arbitrator, because few people can be objective to themselves.

[El Blanco]

This is gonna be spotty cuz I'm still hung over.


About the role of the priest, they are the successors to the Apostles. Christ told them "whatever sins you forgive are forgiven, whatever sins you hold bound are held bound".

Also, one of the fundamental principals of Catholicism is the sense of community. While speaking to God by yourself is important, you must also profess your faith with the community. Of course, telling your deep, dark secrets to the whole town is a little intimidating. This is why we use priests. Along with being the scholars for the community, they are also part time therapists.

[Sethomas]

By the way, there is a process by which a war can be considered "just". That's why Pius XI supported the allies in WWII and such. The Iraqi war doesn't fit the rules for Jus ad Bello, so the current Pope spoke against it.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Like I mentioned in my letter, I've studied the claims made in Stigmata extensively. The premise of the movie was utter shite, and the add-on saying that the Church has kept documents undercover is pure BS. They were referring to the Nag Hamadi codices, of which I have attended a lecture presented by a Catholic priest. You can find the texts online. You can see the originals in a museum in Egypt. No one can make a serious claim that they deserve the title "gospels" because they are clearly apocryphal literature from a Coptic break-off sect.

I am rather naive in the Bible, only learning more about the Apocrypha now. Can you explain the difference between Apocrypha lit. and the scriptures chosen to comprise the Bible...?

[Vibecrewangel]

I never said the movie was a documentary or real. I said the premis was a good one.
Kind of like Eaters of the Dead. (A wretched movie and so/so book if you know what they are based on)

I find interesting that the Apocrypha tend to lend more support to God and less to the Church.
That says a lot to me about why those writings have been left out.

From the mouths of babes.......
At my God daughter's baptism a 5ish year old kid who had been wandering around the church looking in things and under things randomly walked up to me and asked "If this is God's house how come he is never home?"
LAter in the parking lot his parents tried to apologize to me thinking I might be offended having no clue who I was. I reassured them I certainly wasn't and proceeded to ask the kid why he asked me out of all the people in the church.
His response with a blush and a small shrug....
"I dunno. You look like you might know."

All things considered, it was both eeirie and unbelievably flattering.

[Vibecrewangel]

Sethomas -
Do you really think the Church doesn't have serect documents and artifacts?

[mburbank]

OH MY GOD!?! MOVIES AREN'T REAL?!?!?

Anyne ever read the comic 'Preacher'. That's my favorite take on the hidden agenda of the Church.

And WHEN is our ex-seminarian Vince going to weigh in with his scholarly knowledge?

[Protoclown]

Woah, I never realized you'd read "Preacher", Max! That is one of my favorite comic books of all time!

[mburbank]

And, like Dogma had a complicatyed, well thought out take on organized religion burried in it.

[Protoclown]

Kind of like Eaters of the Dead. (A wretched movie and so/so book if you know what they are based on)

I liked "The 13th Warrior". :(

[kellychaos]

Kind of like Eaters of the Dead. (A wretched movie and so/so book if you know what they are based on)

I liked "The 13th Warrior". :(

Weren't they both based on "Beowolf" (sp?)?

Insightful and thoughtful answers like the ones given by Sethomas and El Blanco were of the type for which I was looking ... and I actually learned something. See how that works Vince ... it's called communication. Try it sometime.

Sethomas and El Blanco: I guess it's just kind of hard to believe in the sincere altruism of a church which, in the little knowledge I have of western history, has been linked to so much violence and oppression in the past. Then again, it's seems that most religions have at some point in their history although their doctrine is diametrically opposed to violence. Go figure :rolleyes I guess that you have to gleen out the best parts to make religion work for you in the way that is should.

Vibecrewangel: Your name is too close to Vinceweb at a cursory glance. I apologize if I (silently) mistook some of his comments for yours. Slowing down enough to differentiate the two of you has lifted a dark cloud from my soul. Peace. :)

[Ronnie Raygun]

Confession is a stupid tradition that has nothing to do with Christ.

[Protoclown]

So is your continued posting on this message board.

[Sethomas]

Kelly: Of course the Church has a bloody history, but it's really not as bad as many people sincerely believe. No other institution has lasted the nineteen centuries that Catholicism has, so it should be expected that the Church should have to push now and then for its own survival. This doesn't make it evil, it makes it human. That is the flaw of the church, that it is a mortal institution of divine nature.

Vibe: What do you really think the Church is hiding? The secrets of the pyramids?

NT Apocrypha emphasizes God more because they were written by Aryans and Gnostics, who had little emphasis on Christ himself and so wouldn't care about the Church.

Kevin: Christian understanding of the New Testament comes from a Catholic conference of (I believe) the 4th century called the Council of Nicea. By that time there were hundreds of Christian writings, and the purpose of the Council was to determine which were divinely inspired. Once the list was made, the books were handed over to Jerome who translated both the New Testament and the Septuagent into Latin for the sake of Universality. The books that didn't make the cut for divine inspiration are called Apocryphal writings. They're not spiritually revelent, but many make good reading.

Because Martin Luther's teachings were disproven by some books of the Old Testament, especially parts of Daniel and II Maccabees, he merely included them in the apendix he called "The Apocrypha". I could go on and on about how wrong he was, but that's the reason why the word is often used to talk about the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament.

Ronnie: It has everything to do with Christ and the Bible.

[pjalne]

[Vibecrewangel: Your name is too close to Vinceweb at a cursory glance. I apologize if I (silently) mistook some of his comments for yours. Slowing down enough to differentiate the two of you has lifted a dark cloud from my soul. Peace. :)

Yeah, I've been meaning to point that out. While I've never mistaken you for Vince, I always have to take a second look to make sure before I read your posts. So I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who thinks of you whenever I see a Vince post and vice versa. My point is: you should get yourself an avatar. For your own sake.

[Vibecrewangel]

Holy crow.......

Vince and I must have both sounded bipolar if you were mixing us up......

Perhaps I should put the purple people eater back up.



Sethomas - the secrets of the pyramids. Hmmmm....never thought about that one, but it is possible.
So who wants to take a vote on the Church getting thier hands on many of the pilferd items from the Iraq museum?

Kelly - Eaters was based in part on Beowulf and part on Arab Ibn Fadlan's account of his journeys among the Rus.

Proto - The movie wasn't tooooo bad. A lot got left out that was in the book that made it less appealing to me. However, the whole sex/slave aspect had to be left out for it not become porn.
I have to admit when I saw the previews I thought Banderas (sp) would be a bad choice. He actually impressed me which I think saved the movie for me.

[VinceZeb]

Ronnie, if you would perfer to not be made to look stupid, I'd advise you not speaking in the manners of Catholicism.

We can trace our Church back to a certin Jewish carpenter.

Can you?

[El Blanco]

I guess it's just kind of hard to believe in the sincere altruism of a church which, in the little knowledge I have of western history, has been linked to so much violence and oppression in the past. Then again, it's seems that most religions have at some point in their history although their doctrine is diametrically opposed to violence. Go figure I guess that you have to gleen out the best parts to make religion work for you in the way that is should.


I don't think its fair to say that all happened because of Catholicism. The church has a hierarchy and beuracracy (a lot of it unnessaccery) and this allows people who aren't that great at leadership to climb the ranks. Sometimes, people who aren't that Christian find themselves in charge. Same thing happens with governments and all types of organizations with influence over people.

It isn't the Church, its the human beings.

[Protoclown]

Ronnie, if you would perfer to not be made to look stupid, I'd advise you not speaking in the manners of Catholicism.

We can trace our Church back to a certin Jewish carpenter.

Can you?

YES YES YES!!! PULL UP A CHAIR, FOLKS! I THINK VINCE AND RONNIE ARE ABOUT TO FIGHT!! THIS'LL BE GREAT!!!

[pjalne]

Holy crow.......

Vince and I must have both sounded bipolar if you were mixing us up......


Nah, it's just that your post look the same visually with the Vs and no avatars and all. I don't put you in the same booth or anything, I just have a hard time seeing one without thinking of the other. Just like James Spader and David Spade.

[mburbank]

Vince;

Ronnie has gone on record as saying Catholics are not 'Real' Christians and that the Pope has no credability becuase of his tacit endorsement of child rape.


Ronnie;

Vince says he is a devout Christian and yet has gone on at length about premarital sex, has porno links on his website and can tell you at length about the differences between a natural Breast and a surgically augmented one, baed on comparative squeezing.


The Reuplican party. A tent large enough for angry pinheads of all stripes.