Catholics

[Vibecrewangel]

So this morning on the way to work I saw a bumper sticker that said

YOU CAN'T BE A CATHOLIC AND PRO CHOICE

So much for free will.......

[mburbank]

Ask Vince, he had some fscinating thoughts about how it's fine to be a Catholic but disagree with the Pope, plus, he studied for two years to be a priest.

I'm certain that he, as the only seminarian on our board would have some carefully reasoned thoughts on the matter.

[VinceZeb]

It's very simple. Abortion is the murder of innocent, defenseless living beings in an intentional matter. Catholics believe from the moment of conception that the baby inside you is not a "festus" or any other flowery word you want to use. It is a living being, and it should be protected. You cannot be catholic and support abortion.
And being Catholic is like being anything else: Follow the rules or you are not a part of the group. Simple as that. Free will has nothing to do with it.

And Max, my Christ killing friend, the Pople did not speak out in an official fashion and say that it is religious doctrine that the war with Iraq was immoral. So quit trying to be clever.

[Vibecrewangel]

Why is it that Catholics seem to pick and choose which sins are okay and which aren't?

[Zebra 3]

:) - Lets feed them to the lions once again, and start with our very own I-Mockery's token McNazi, VinceZeb!

[glowbelly]

:lol@festus

[Protoclown]

Wait a minute here, Vince!! You're saying that MAX BURBANK killed Christ??? Jesus Christ! That's intense!

That is a fucking bitter pill to swallow, I tell ya. You admire and respect someone, you think you know them, and then you find out they built (or STOLE >: ) a time machine and killed Christ.

Man, it's like my whole world is turning upside down.

HOW COULD YOU, MAX??? YOU, OF ALL INDIVIDUAL PERSONS, ACTING ALONE??? :tear

[FS]

HOLD THE PHONE#!@!?

The Bible has also lasted for 10000+ years, counting the Old and New Testaments.

ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME MAX IS 100000+ YEARS OLD.

ARE YOU TRYING TO SELL ME THAT.

:rolleyes

[Protoclown]

Well, let's not get ridiculous here, FatSatan. That's a little far-fetched, don't you think?

That's why I'm pretty sure there has to be a time-machine involved here somewhere.

[mburbank]

I was drunk.



Vince... So the Popes anti-war stance was, what... a casual suggestion? Are you perhaps saying that anything a Pope says that he does not declare to be ex cathedra is just a suggestion to the faithful? Becuase since this Pope rejects ex cathedra speech, than in your view, he hasn't said anything at all.

I'm pleased you offered an educated opinion though. Answer me this, when you take communion do you believe the wafer and wine in your mouth actually become real, literal flesh and blood? Not metaphorical, not symbollic, but actual human flesh and blood?

That's called The Miracle of Transubstantiation, and guess what? If you don't believe in it, you aren't a Catholic, you are a Protestant. So what do you say, Vince?

[VinceZeb]

Yes, I do, Max. I believe in it fully.

[Protoclown]

Do you believe in ghosts???

Or aliens???

Or submarine letters??

Cuz I don't believe any of those exist.

[mburbank]

Excellent! I have no problem with this holy cannibalism on a religous level, but personally I'd have a hard time swallowing real flesh and real blood.

How do you feel about the official Vatican stance that the Romans (to whom you are related) killed jesus and not the Jews?

[Vibecrewangel]

Zeb -

So abortion is murder to a Catholic. Then what about killing someone in a war?

[VinceZeb]

Vibe, you confusing murder with killing. Murder is the slaying of someone unjustly and without reason. God never said we could not kill someone, just not murder. If you kill someone trying to kill you and your family, that is fine. If you go out and shoot someone just because you want his chains, that is murder so that is wrong.

[Protoclown]

I have a question for you, Vince.

Why won't you answer Burbank's question?

[Vibecrewangel]

This is exactly what I mean my pick and choose what is a sin and what isn't.

Killing is killing.

And as a side note. The Iraqi soldiers who have died in the war were in no way threatening any of the people who killed them. We went over there with the express purpose to kill people who were not threataning us in any way. We were the agressors.

And what about the civillans....they weren't a threat either.

See you are picking and choosing what sort of killing is a sin and what isn't. I could come up with justifications for abortion too.

And what about sex before marriage? Or sex for anything other than procreation?
You laugh at neo-paganism for being a build your own religion, but look where most of them learned it from. Even if not on a concious level.




edit: 'cause I can spell most of the time....

[FS]

So, if you'd spit out the wine and bread instead of swallowing it, would you have genetic material belonging to Jesus?

Cause that would make cloning a lot more interesting.

[mburbank]

I imagine it would cease to be Flesh and Blood when you spit it out. As to a forensic examination of stomach contents, I think we can agree that the very miraculousness of the process could protect it from detection. I just wanted to know if he BELIEVED he was eating real flesh and blood, and happily he does.

He apparently DOES NOT believe that Catholic doctrine holds the Romans and not the Jews responsible for the death of Jesus. But then, Vinces understanding of Catholic Dogma is pretty piss poor concidering he spent two years studying to be a priest.

[kellychaos]

I'd hate to think that I had a little bit of Jesus stuck in my teeth ... and stop the hispanic jokes before they start. I'm on to you guys. :)

[Sethomas]

Just to be fair, except in cases like the miracle of Lanciano, transubstantiation doesn't say the chemical composition has to change. It merely becomes the real essence and presence of Christ, thus comparable enough to flesh and blood that they can be called such. When it loses the chemical form of bread and wine in the digestive process, the presence of Christ is lost.

[Jeanette X]

Catholics believe from the moment of conception that the baby inside

This belief has only been Catholic doctrine for the past 150 years or so. Abortion used to be acceptable up until the time of the "quickening", that is, when the baby began to move.

[mburbank]

Seth...

You're getting that from... where?

I'm not neccesarily questioning it, I just never heard anyone go into that kind of detail regarding essence being 'sort of kind of close enough' and the digestive process removing the Christ.

It all sounds rather heretical to me.

And Jeanette. Try not to lay too many historical details on Vince. he only studied to be priest for two years. They may not have covered quickening.

[Sethomas]

Parts of that I got from a letter sent out by my bishop, but it's been a long time.

If you asked me if the bread and wine become flesh and blood, I would say "yes." But it takes more than a little rumination and semantics to determine what the nature of that flesh and blood is.

[Abcdxxxx]

oh look, big shock, there's sethomas talking in the interest of catholic atheists everywhere.

[Sethomas]

"catholic atheists everywhere" :lol idiot. How is defense of evolution, string theory, or muslim culture in the interest of any catholic? I know enough Jews that are against the war to say that you don't defend any stance except those of extremist assholes, and it just so happens that you have a Judeo-Israeli flavor.

Two points to consider: I didn't initiate any of the discussions related to Catholicism currently on the board, and I have an established reputation for posts that deal with much more than Catholicism. I'd be posting much less if it weren't for one Catholic that is tarnishing the image of his religion, and one Christian that is making all of Christendom seem to wreak of hypocrisy. You, however, speak in a very narrow-minded and predictable manner simply because that's all you're able to do.

[ziggytrix]

So the Catholic Atheist angle is covered, but who's gonna speak up for the Catholic Buddhists?

[Jeanette X]

What's string theory?

[El Blanco]

Its a physics theory that basically defines everything. I had a professor who kept telling us he was almost on it.

[Skulhedface]

Vibe, you confusing murder with killing. Murder is the slaying of someone unjustly and without reason. God never said we could not kill someone, just not murder. If you kill someone trying to kill you and your family, that is fine. If you go out and shoot someone just because you want his chains, that is murder so that is wrong.

COMMANDMENT #1: THOU SHALT NOT KILL
Ahem... you were saying?

[Sethomas]

I'd have to check, but I think that's closer to number five. In the Exodus version, at least.

[Protoclown]

Actually, Skullhead, it's been pretty well agreed upon that the translation of that leaves something to be desired and it originally DOES state "Thou shalt not murder".

Even so, Vibecrew's point still stands. In fact, her entire point HINGES upon the all-too-often arbitrary distinction between "killing" someone and "murdering" them.

But I thought I would clear you up on that before VinceZeb breaks out in hives and uses his explanation of the translation to you as an excuse to avoid the REAL issue being brought up here by Vibe.

[Sethomas]

I checked an online translator. There is an old Hebrew word that can work for both "kill" and "murder", which is what was probably used. There is also a word that only means "murder". Perhaps Triple X knows which one is used, but I suspect it's "kill".

[mburbank]

I also know that only God knows which is which. I don't think it's up to us to decide what is murder and what is killing. Is so called 'collateral damage' murder or killing? God knows, not us. If you shoot a prowler in your home, murder or killing? God's call and you can hope he sides with you, but you don't know. The death penalty? God knows. What if a policeman shoots someone he THOUGHT was armed but wasn't? God knows, not us.

Concidering this, it would be wise to err on the side of caution when taking lives.

[kellychaos]

What's string theory?

Early physics/mathematical model of the way the four basic physical forces (electromagnetic, weak nuclear, strong nuclear, gravity) may actually be one unified force. It's just one example of the Unified Force Theory that has neither been proven nor disproven but continues to hold sway over many influential modern physists. Here's a website that explains the basics pretty well:

String Theory (http://theory.tifr.res.in/~mukhi/Physics/string.html)