MATRIX 2: Reloaded discussion

[Mockery]

Talk about the new Matrix movie in here. And please, if you're going to discuss spoilers, please put a SPOILER ALERT! before it so people who haven't seen the movie can opt to not read your post.

There is no
http://www.i-mockery.com/RomHacks/wilford-kong/tick-spoon.gif

[Teenage_Zombie138]

i just saw it , i liked it made you think (or maybe im just stupid) some comedy in it (as in making fun of the first one) i dont realy know what else i could say without spoiling it

[Geggy]

It sucked. :(

[Vibecrewangel]

I liked the effects.
The philosophy and religious aspects were interesting. I just don't think it was as well written as the first.




TINY SPOILER -






I want orgasm cake!

[Ninjavenom]

yeah...but.... there's swords!

[Vibecrewangel]

I don't know. I guess I just liked the subtleness of the first movie when it came to the Neo/Jesus aspect better.

Being called "My own personal Jesus Christ" early on. Before he even meets Morpheus. The scene with Cypher and Trinity outside his door after his first day of training. The way they are standing leaves only a section of the grid on the door showing. In the shape of a cross of course. Cyper is gesturing in a way that draws your eyes too it. It was totally obvious to me, but everyone I was with totally missed it the first few times they saw it.

This time around it was too "here, this is what I am trying to say" It was the subtlty, the undercurrent, that made the first one more intense.

[FeuerAffe]

We managed to get into the first showing at 10pm last night for free, despite everyone telling us we wouldn't be able to. :)

I thought the first was better as well...but if you're big into it, stay until after the credits; they play the trailer for the third movie.

[executioneer]

The Matrix had a stupid premise, and Matrix 2 looks like it has a worse one >:




I'll probably go see it anyways :(


-willie

[Vibecrewangel]

Ex -

I think the premis of the first one was actually pretty good. It was really open to interpretation and I liked that. There is the religious Neo/Jesus interpretation. The political view(I hate that so many people go that route). And my personal favorite, one I never would have thought of.....the lucid dreaming interpretation.

The second one striped a lot of that away and pretty much left you with only one view.
Don't get me wrong. It's still a fairly good sci-fi flick. I just tend to get offended when movie makers seem to think the audience is too dumb to get the point without a speech to explain it. But then as most people who read the philo forum could probably tell, I tend to like anything that is below the surface.

[Protoclown]

I saw it tonight, and despite hearing reports and reading reviews that said it paled in comparison to the original, I wasn't disappointed in the least. I thought it was fantastic.

Visually, it was far superior to the first film. And despite what every review I've read of it has said, I didn't find the story lacking at all. I would say that on the whole I prefer the first movie, but I'd need to see the second one a few more times before I can really make a fair comparison.

I have no problem with the fact that it didn't have a "real" ending, as a lot of people were complaining about. Everybody should have been aware that this is part 2 of 3 going into the film.

The preview for Matrix Revolutions after the credits looks promising, but nothing as visually awe-inspiring as in this film. I do however believe that they ARE going to "up the ante" even more, I suspect they're probably saving the "big guns" for a future trailer closer to the November release.

[executioneer]

but it's scientifically retarded :(

they use the energy from humans AND A FORM OF FUSION.

WHAT THE FUCK DO THEY NEED BIOELECTRIC ENERGY FOR IF THEY HAVE GODDAMN FUSION :(

-willie

[wreckreation]

MAYBEE FARM OF FUSHION IS GO TO STORE ADN BUY FUSHION!!! >:

[Les Waste]

You only need two hydrogen atoms to make fusion.

YOUR SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE AND IT IS BASICALLY ONE BIG LIE >: :(

[wreckreation]

THEY ARE JERKOFFS FOR EVEN WANTING TO GET EVERYONE OUT OF THE MATRIX. JERKS!

[McClain]

NON-IMPORTANT SPOILER

The main part that bugged me was the sequence of events after Morpheus addressed all of Zion. What the fuck was that shit? Everyone was dancing and getting all weird. Rave meets Stomp? In puddles of hormone drenched sweat? Pssshhhhick.


IMPORTANT SPOILER

Albeit a great scene, the cgi in Neo vs. Agent Smith's was noticeable. From a distance it was great, but when they did the close-ups I could tell I wasn't looking at a real person. That was a bit disappointing.

Other than that, the movie was phenomenal.

[Skulhedface]

I saw it and I have to say I was floored. Of course there are the things that were already pointed out by Proto and Mcclaiin (I was sitting there thinking about the CGI looking obvious when Neo was fighting the myriad of Agent Smiths in the middle of the film) but on the whole since I was paying very close attention to this movie I did catch everything and understand it and I did find it better than the original. I was hyped from the start though, they had the trailers for Freddy Vs. Jason and Terminator 3 (Even if T3 sucks, I'd still go see it)





SPOILERS AHEAD







I think the things that threw me off the most were that Agent Smith basically turned into a computer worm and that in the end Morpheus found his faith shaken, his main reason for fighting gone. I went with my roommate to see this and we kept debating whether Neo did indeed have power in the "real" world or if it was a well-timed, coincidental EMP. Guess I'll just hafta wait for the next one. It's coming out in a few months, isn't it?

*END SPOILERS*

To all the people bitching about how the movie suddenly ended... I think they did a good enough job with it. Think of all the other movies that ended up like that and were still enjoyable, Back To The Future II springs to mind, it ended the same way ("TO BE CONCLUDED").

I just wish I'd stayed for the end. I missed the Matrix III trailers.

[Vibecrewangel]

SPOILERS AHEAD










I think Neo does have powers in the real world. Remember one of the Smith copys made it through an exit and into a human. This would be the guy who cut his hand and then shook Neo's hand in Zion. I think the blood transfer gave Neo some of the Smith virus in the real world. That's why Neo was able to sense the squiddies.
That human was also the traitor/survivor found at the end.

That's my guess anyway.

[theapportioner]

I liked it -- hard to 'review' it without seeing the 3rd installment, since so many loose ends need to be tied up. Salon.com has a good analysis/review of it.

SPOILER

Some scenes were rather pointless however, like when the kid gave Neo that spoon. No development of that at all, though they may involve it somehow in the 3rd film.

Neat how they put in nuggets of Baudrillard and Dennett, among others. Seeing Cornel West in the movie was funny too.

[McClain]

That spoon scene was in reference to the first movie... When Neo went to see the Oracle and found himself talking to the boy in the waiting room. The kid was making the spoon bend with his mind and then said something profound.

There are so many loose ends with the second installment... They could take the third movie in any direction. I just hope they don't go all crazy and shit. Keep it simple. Like the first.

[theapportioner]

I know it was a reference to the 1st movie, but still, it was pointless in the 2nd. Came across to me as a lame gesture, since they didn't go anywhere with it.

[noob3]

Everything seem too forced and stupid, the fighting never made sense and seemed as it was just thrown in so peopel wouldnt explode from boredom inbetween the long, boreing philosophy sessions.

[Rongi]

I can't say anything that hasn't already been said. I saw the movie at 10 at night and didn't get home until 1 AM so maybe I didn't pic up too many things because I was sleepy. Maybe I also didn't like this movie too much because I rewatched the matrix before I went and saw Reloaded. The first matrix in my humble opinion, was a fucking awesome movie. The secound one...well, it didn't really have the charm that the first one did.

TINY SPOILERS BELOW

Action scenes where fucking incredible. The whole pole fight scene, although it was cool, seemed pretty fake. The fight scenes on the freeway and when they fight the french guy's minions where fucking awesome. :love Morpheus with a katana :love

Another thing. What the fuck was that whole corny love thing with Neo and Trinity? I'm sorry, I just can't buy that whole "Oh, lets dry hump in the elevator cause we love eachother so fucking much". It seemed so dumb and fake. It wasn't as bad as the love scenes with Anakin and Padame though...

However, the whole dance scene and blending in neo and trinity having sex almost made me want to leave the theater. What the fuck was that?

[Protoclown]

I know it was a reference to the 1st movie, but still, it was pointless in the 2nd. Came across to me as a lame gesture, since they didn't go anywhere with it.

Where was it supposed to go, exactly? It was simply supposed to serve as a reminder to Neo of where he came from, and keep him focused on the simple truths that lie behind the Matrix.

[WorthlessLiar]

SPOILER
He's going to use the spoon to kill Agent Smith.

I was satisfied with this movie. Both because it was a decent scifi and awesome action movie and because it didn't quite live up to the expectations of those who thought it would be the best movier evar. I get to say "I told you so" when Return of the King mops the floor with this movie.

I did really liked the more surprising elements of this movie skulhead mentioned. They did a near complete 180 from the great hero who will inevitibly destroy evil story that's been told a million times at the last minute.

I can't believe the pacing in parts of this movie though. I thought the discussion with the architect was cool but I can't believe the makers of a movie series reknowned for its action would put a 15 minute conversation with an old guy near the climax.

[Spectre X]

I saw it just a half an hour ago, and I can hoestly say.......I smell of smoke.

Oh, the movie fucking rocked as well.



SPOILER











Smith being a renegade now just fucking rocked. I also liked the highway chase scene, it was just fucking incredible. Also, Neo dragging all of those cars in his wake when he goes ultrasonic was spiffy as well.

Furthermore, the reason why Neo could stop those Sentinels in rel life might be up to the fact that he went for the choice of saving Trinity instead of Zion, which, as the Architect said, would lead to some kind of strange chain reaction inside the Matrix, which might have been the cause for Neo being able to use his powers outside of the Matrix as well.

[Protoclown]

SPOILER
He's going to use the spoon to kill Agent Smith.

Haha, wouldn't that be funny?

That said though, it does remind me that we shouldn't be too critical of unresolved plot threads or things that seemingly don't make complete sense...yet. If they leave a bunch of shit unresolved by the end of the THIRD movie, then it's time to get annoyed.

[noob3]

Is it just me, or is the rebel Agent Smith the most badass villain EVER? I mean, when like 7 of his copies cracked thier necks.. I was just like "Wow, dude. That's badass"

[Spectre X]

your sarcasm fails to amuse me.

[noob3]

Uh, I wasn't being sarcastic, stupid.

[Spectre X]

yes you were.

[noob3]

I could see how it could be read as sarcastic, with the "I mean". But that's just how type things out, it wasn't sarcasm. As soon as I saw that scene, I cracked my neck to be cool like Mr. Smith.

[Mister Sarcastic]

Only one person can be sarcastic around here :rolleyes

[FS]

I'm surprised so many people found this movie inferior and even in parts bothersome. I tend to be more blown away by big spectacles seen in theatres than when I catch them on TV, which might taint my opinion, but still.

AW HECK, JUST SKIP THE REST OF THIS POST IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HIT A SPOILER.



I thought the deepening of the story with the Oracle and other beings in the Matrix being explained as independant programs was great. I'd have to watch the movie a second time to ensure that I fully understood the explanations of the Architect, but what I understood of it now is that Zion is as much part of the great system/plan of the Machines as the Matrix is. I liked that. I feel the story has come a great length with this movie - in the first one it was more simplified, with Neo as a Jesus that would set everything straight.

Since the Architect suggested that the One is more like a human program than a messiah, my take on Neo stopping the Sentinels is that he's rising above himself. He's becoming the One in the real world, something which will probably be left more up to spirituality to explain than to the tricks of Agent Smith or the Matrix itself. No doubt he will be able to jack into the Matrix without use of his neckplug in the next movie. I suppose the next movie will be all about Neo defeating Agent Smith to save everyone still in the Matrix from getting killed when the 24 hours run out.

The action scenes: I thought Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was a bore and I've never cared for most flavors of Japanimation, but I was blown away. Sure, it was over the top and crazy, and you could tell by the movements it wasn't all real stuntwork, but I just tried to keep my jaw from dropping into my lap. The clone fight, the fight in the hall with the art and weaponry, the freeway chase - I loved it all. And inbetween, I liked the story plenty.

I guess my idea that this movie was great for everyone was wrong, but I enjoyed the hell out of it. My only thought now is that they've laid the bar pretty damn high for the next movie.

[Spectre X]

n00b, you were yet again being sarcastic, and FS, you're absolutely right.

[Rongi]

I'm supprised I was the only one who thought the Trinity and Neo love thing was fucking cheesey :(

[Skulhedface]

No, believe it or not, I thought that too. It seemed more like it belonged in a different movie. I don't mind love scenes, but the whole "dance/Trinity and Neo Get It ON!" scene struck me as gratuitous. The pacing of the movie was haphazardly and despite that I still liked it, but this scene was really fucking pointless. Even if I felt inclined to agree as earlier stated that the spoon scene was unnecessary, I would've included it over the dance scene.

And indeed, Morpheus with a katana :rock

[FS]

IF YOU DON'T WANT THE MOVIE SPOILED FOR YOU WHY ARE YOU STILL READING THIS THREAD, MOTARD?




Does anyone know if the albino Twins will be in Matrix:Revolutions too? They were blown up with their car, but if I remember correctly they were just launched into the air by the explosion.

[noob3]

SPOILER, HONKEY

Uh, I'm not sure. It looks as if their ghastly versions turned orange/black and were flailing in agony as the flames consumed them. But, they were passing through shit, so why wouldn't they be able to pass through an explosion?

[HickMan]

SPOILER


There is more than one matrix. There are six altogether. Or even more. Rember when the maker of the matrix was saying that there were five glitches before neo? Well they all took the door that restarted everything aside from the matrix it's self. The Matrix was programmed after how neo lived and stuff like that. So i'm guessing that all of the Matrix's were programmed after 'the ones'. I don't understand about neo stopping the sentinals, but the real world also must be another Matrix. Don't those ghost twins look like Milli Vanilli? This movie is to deep to comprehend.

[FeuerAffe]

The albino twins rocked. :love

[FS]

Hickman, I'm not sure if I'm right about this, but my understanding was that the other Matrixes - or Matrices - he was talking about were the previous versions of the Matrix, among which the very first one that failed because it was too perfect. Basically, everytime a prophecized One arises and causes the downfall of that Matrix to give rise to a new, more perfected one.

[Geggy]

However, the whole dance scene and blending in neo and trinity having sex almost made me want to leave the theater. What the fuck was that?

Sexual energy is the most positive energy that could ever come out of a human's body. What you saw was a beautiful thing. I wonder what it's like to have sex with the One.

[Johnny Horton]

SPOILER

The Matrix is about layers of complexity, layers of choice. Here is what I think is truly behind the Matrix.

Zion is not a free city. It is another part of the Matrix. Our heroes in the first and second movies have never really left the Matrix. They just think they did. You can see this in the second movie when Neo holds up his hand and stops the sentinels after stating, "Something's different." He has finally awoken to the fact that "the real world", is not actually the real world after all. It is yet another computer simulation.

The old man, the architect, gave it away when he said that human existence was all about choice. Free will, in other words. The machines wanted to develop a way to control the humans, so they developed a system that gave humans the choice to be enslaved. As the architect pointed out, 99.9% of all humans accepted the choice. However, anomalies arose... 0.1% of humans didn't accept the choice of conforming to the Matrix. As the Oracle stated, the Matrix is simply one system built using a bunch of other systems. So, in order to control the 0.1% anomalies who rebel against the system, the architect reveals that they developed another control system - that is, the control system of "The One."

Also the architect states that the mathematical anomaly for "the One" is a program that they use to control. So essentially "The One" is a program in the simulation.

There were six "The One" predecessors before Neo. The architect matter of factly states this, and the French Merryl Lynch guy confirms it earlier in the movie when he repeatedly states that "your predecessors didn't kill me, and you won't either."

"The One" control system was designed to eliminate the 0.1% anomaly of all humans who choose not to accept the Matrix. How does the Matrix eliminate the 0.1% anomaly? - By providing them with another choice, the choice to live or the choice to die.

The architect points out that "The One" chooses thirty two people and then they all go and basically repopulate Zion. "The One" is set up to force a choice to accept going to Zion and repopulating it. Why? Because the machines destroy the existing Zion, and if "The One" doesn't go repopulate, then the human race will be extinct. So, The One for six straight times has chosen to "save" the human race. But, what The Ones have really chosen is continued bondage to the machines. They have bought into the whole control system.

Unfortunately, what the makers of the Matrix can't control is the fact that of the 0.1% anomaly from the original choice, there is yet another 0.1% anomaly. So, the entire system that the architect has built (the original Matrix plus the Zion Matrix) accounts for the choices that 99.99% of all humans will make. There is still an anomaly of .01%.

Why is there an anomaly? - Because of choice. Choice is what Neo is presented with when he stands before the architect. Does Neo save the existence of the human race and repopulate Zion? Or, does Neo choose to save his love Trinity? 99.99% of all people won't ever make that choice (either through not having the chance or through not making it), but Neo does.

This is why he realizes that something is different in the "real world." This is why he can stop the machines, the sentinels. Because it is just another system. And as we learned in the first movie, you are bound within the rules of the system only as long as you don't realize that you can bend or break them.

This is why the little orphan boy who bent the spoons in the first movie sends Neo a spoon message in the second movie. It is to remind Neo that it is not the spoon who bends, but himself. He must bend to see through what the Matrix truly is.

The Matrix is about choice.

[Anonymous]

Hey, that's great. Here's what I think:


The Matrix is a movie with neat action sequences, followed by long periods of psychobabble delivered by actors who were told that they absolutely must not show any emotion whatsoever. Such is the Matrix.:|

[Protoclown]

Johnny, I am impressed. That was a very well-written, thought provoking explanation. I think you're absolutely right.

[Captain Robo]

SPOILER ALERT
















It's sad how Trinity dies :(

[Anonymous]

as far as "religious" ideas go..The first matrix left me with a heavy christianity/buddist impression. This matrix seemed like it tried to go past christianity (neo is only human. Disturbed by being treated as a deity, and later rejecting that notion all together.). It still seemed to retain buddist ideas, but seemed to move on to some freemasonry (the architect obviously.. but I think there was more than that to it. Maybe the whole speach about machines and humans "we need them, they need us". And posssibly because he seems to be on his 3rd rebirth now)
I need to see it several more times though. And hard to say much without seeing all 3 movies yet

anyway onto something else, being the geek I am... I thought the way they did the backdoors was pretty funny

[FS]

Boogie, I agree that they could've balanced the emotion shown in and out of the Matrix a little better (Morpheus' speech seemed a bit... insane?), but it's not much different from the first movie. When people are hooked into the Matrix, apparently they have to act like asexual robots. :rolleyes

Johnny's analogy is pretty solid. I'm doubting my theory now.

[Mockery]

(possible spoilers? meh, you should have seen it by now anyay!)

I have to say, I fucking loved this movie. I've already seen it twice and I'm still ready to see it again. From the beginning, I wasn't expecting to be able to "relate" to it as much as I could to the first one. A lot of people liked the first one so much because it was something that really hit home with a lot of us...

It stated out with a guy working a horrible, mindless job and he finds himself thinking, "this can't be all that there is to life"... and then he finds out that indeed there is much more. That's why it was so easy to relate to. This new one couldn't possibly be as easy to relate to because he's already gone through all of that stuff and now the story is progressing. Minus a few cheesy moments (ie: the drawn-out love scene) I love what they did with the story. And holy shit, the action in this movie was just badass. The big battle between Neo and Agent Smith was great... yeah you could tell during some parts that it was CGI, but other parts of it you simply couldn't tell that it was computer generated. All in all, it was a great sequence. And then the big fight in the hall when Neo picked up a pair of SAI, goddamn... I was so happy to see that.

And then there was the big freeway battle... I swear, I have never seen a better action sequence in my entire life. That entire sequence was just too perfect. It's really surprising too, because you'd think the scenes with Neo ("The One") would be the most amazing ones. Definitely nice to see the other characters kicking ass.

In conclusion, I don't care what any reviewer thinks of the movie... it was fucking great and I can't wait for the next one. A fight between Neo and Agent Smith in the rain! That right there is an action movie fan's wet dream.

-RoG-

[soundtest]

I thought it was pretty visually stimulating. An entertaining ride...

spolier

...but I would like to hear Mr. Sarcastic's thoughts on the cave rave scene.

[Zomboid]

Saw it, wasn't as good as the first and the speeches were long and repetitive.

I'll agree about the action scenes kicking total ass though.

[Mockery]

...but I would like to hear Mr. Sarcastic's thoughts on the cave rave scene.

(if you mean me and not the character) I already commented on that one...

Minus a few cheesy moments (ie: the drawn-out love scene) I love what they did with the story.

And unlike some people, I did enjoy most of the dialogue in the film.

Anybody who doesn't agree with me, can wipe my ass with silk.

[soundtest]

In fact, I did mean the character. I guess I should have typed Mister.

wipe my ass with silk

I watched it in Montreal, and that scene got quite a chuckle. :lol

[Matt Harty]

Furthermore, the reason why Neo could stop those Sentinels in rel life might be up to the fact that he went for the choice of saving Trinity instead of Zion, which, as the Architect said, would lead to some kind of strange chain reaction inside the Matrix, which might have been the cause for Neo being able to use his powers outside of the Matrix as well.

In the archetects speech, he basically explained that Zion was just another part of the Matrix. Him and the Oracle were just source code.

The reason for Zion was the for the people noticing something wrong in their world to break free, and therefore by choice be free.

The problem is that as more people free themselves, there is "the one" who comes along and the Matrix is reset by the person making the wrong choice in the end.

Now Neo is the 1st to make a seperate choice, and is obviously going to be the first to break out of the Zion program.

Hence him feeling different, and being able to destroy sentinals.

[Protoclown]

I have a couple friends who I'm debating with about the end of the film, and these two guys say that Neo made the same choice as his five predecessors. That they ALL chose the door to go back into the Matrix rather than go to the source. They say the Architect WANTED him to go back into the Matrix and he was manipulated into choosing Trinity.

I have to wonder if they watched the same movie I did...my understanding of it was that Neo was the first one to even be GIVEN a real choice. For the the other guys who were not in love, it was a rather simple matter. They can save humanity...or not.

They also think that some of the Neos on the monitors were his predecessors. I always thought that his predecessors were DIFFERENT GUYS, not clones of Neo.

I don't know where they get these crazy ideas.

[Mockery]

I don't know where they get these crazy ideas.

Kids these days, I tell ya. Seriously though, I think Neo is the first to make a different choice... just as you said, because he was the first one to be in a different situation (him being in love).

On a sidenote, I downloaded the entire musical score (disc 2 of the soundtrack) and it fucking RULES. Then again, it's making me angry too because I keep wanting to see the Freeway scene over and over any time I heard the music. Don Davis is the man.

[Skulhedface]

Regarding what Proto said about the predecessors being clones of Neo...

Maybe that's not entirely true. Could have been a computer generated construct meant to manipulate Neo into going through the door that the Architect wanted him to go through, and being that the Architect did know a lot about Neo and his possible reactions, was able to generate video based on all those reactions. He's said that this would be the 6th time the One has come through, but it sounded like there were a lot more than 5 responses (not counting our present Neo) when the Architect would ask Neo a question and the "other Neos" would answer it. It's more probability than certainty, and maybe the latest Neo caught on to that, or less nobly, he just would've rather saved Trinity.

[FS]

Good theory on the myriad Neo images. When I saw the movie I didn't read anything special into it, but that sounds reasonable enough.

One thing I just remembered, what was up with Neo using "the Force" to snatch those Sai? Unless it was some kind of Star Wars tribute, it seemed kind of awkward to me. It was the one moment in that fight scene that made me cock an eyebrow.

[Mockery]

He's The One now though, he can do pretty much anything he wants in the Matrix... including perform bare-handed surgery. :o

Did anybody notice that when the architect was talking about the grotesqueries of human nature, George W. Bush appeared on some of the tv screens in the background? :lol I love it.

[Vibecrewangel]

:love Johnny :love


I'm going to sort of expand on what JHorton said. Hopefully, I won't slaughter this too much. It's theoretical math and I am just starting to grasp the concept. I've been teaching myself using the Matrix and Run Lola Run as my way to view the concept. Bear in mind, I have taught all of this to myself. If I am off base and you know it I would LOVE the input.

First, you have to look at existance as a 3 dimensional infinite grid. There is energy that moves through the grid. These energies are time, space and conciousness. Because these are all infinate anything is possible. For the sake of this, I am going to take a small section of the grid to work with. First, space. Space will fill up a section of the grid and make up the area of the Matrix. Time will run from the creation of the Matrix to the destruction of the Matrix. Say left to right over the section of the grid filled by space. Now you need to add conciousness. Conciousness will be human thought. It will run from top to bottom through the section of the grid. You now have time and conciousness intersecting in a set area of space known as the matrix. Events occur only at points of intersection.

The One is a conciousness at the point of a certain event. The One is created only at this event. Until this event The One does not exist. Every conciousness is a possibility. The closer you conciousness is to the time space intersection the more of a potential you are. In the first movie Neo and the other potentials are the ones closest to that intersection. Any one of them could be The One. The Oracle tells Neo he is not The One because at that time no one is. The event that creates The One has not occured. The kid with the spoon understands how the Matrix works. He uses the spoon to explain the concept to Neo. The spoon represents the future event. Thus, it does not exist. There is no spoon. (yet) He tells Neo not to try to bend it as that is impossible. You can not change the future from the now. He tells him to realize that it is not the spoon that bends only himself. His choices can lead him closer or further from the event and is what changes the outcome. Both the Oracle and the kid are teaching Neo how the Matrix works.



SPOILERS AHEAD





In the second movie Neo has learned more about the grid and how to maipulate it.

Neo has now also begun to "see" possible events on the grid. But, he is still having trouble understanding that they are only possible. Choices, his and those of others can change the event. When he sees Trinity die he is seeing a possible future. The kid with the spoon sees more including the possible choices for Neo. He is trying to help Neo make the right choice. But, he can not tell him what choice to make as then it isn't actually a choice. Instead he sends the spoon. The spoon this time represents the event of Trinitys death. In other words, don't try to stop the event before it happens, only try to move yourself towards the event. Neo doesn't get it. :) He tries to alter the event by asking Trinity not to go. He has effectivly limited her choices at a point in time this moved her conciousness closer to the event. Since Trinity was forced to stay her next possible choice was to stay put or go help. She chose to help. Again she moves closer to the event. If she had gone on the original mission, she may have been on another part of the grid and her choices might have kept her away from the event.
When Neo meets the Architect , the Architect explains the Matrix to him in more detail. On one level of the grid are the sleeping humans. They are limited to certain choices because they don't know any others exist. The ones that get woken up now have more choices and can potentialy move through more of the grid. The more you learn about the Matrix the more choices you have. The more choices the more movement.
Now, human conciousness is bound by certain perceptions. Time is linear. Conciousness can only be in one place at one time. No two of the same energy can be in the same space at the same time. Physical is real. This limits their choices such as jumping from one point to another. The programs are are not bound the same as the humans. This why the agents can jump to an event and force the occupying conciousness out. Smith, is bound by even less. He has figured out that his conciousness can be in more than one place at one time.
If a conciousness were to realize it was just energy, not a specific energy it would have no limits at all. Of course, this leads to you are everything and everything is you. This means everything is a single point. Existance becomes a cingularity and collapses in on itself. Once on the other side it is all possibilities again. Chaos to order to balance and back to chaos again.
This is the basis of Buddhist thought as well.

I could go on for hours.....
I hope this is at least a bit understandable.


In Run Lola Run, they have figured out how to move their conciousness on the time line. But, they can only move as far back as when they learned of the event they are trying to change. That's why she starts at the call. She then moves through the grid looking for choices that will lead them farther away from the the event. He is doing the same.

[wreckreation]

fuckin hippies. movies are movies and they make them to be cool. If you try to read too much into them you will just be let down.

[Vibecrewangel]

:P wreck :P

I actually started my post wanting only to show that the spoon was very important. Unfortunately, to explain the spoon I had to explain the theory. I would have used a spiritual version but for the fact that the matrix is based on code.

[Rez]

in all this thread i agree with proto 100%

here's something i posted in other forums that doesnt necessarily fit totally here, since most of you liked it, but it's an argument nonetheless
---------------------------

*FUCKING SPOILERS OKAY?*


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
over philosophical
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


maybe. the scene with the french guy was overly done, but that was pretty much it. everything else was pretty straightforward. cause, effect, choices and lack of. wow.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but there's also two sequences in which you are actually BORED. true blue boredom.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ok, i want to hear it. i was engrossed in everything this movie had to offer, because i believe nothing was written into this movie by accident or just because. this third one is going to tie everything up so spectacularly that these "boring scenes" will probably be the most important. depends on which one you were talking about.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the rave/love scene was crap/forgettable/useless/awful
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


you guys are on something completely off. that scene was ART. it was one of the best love scene's i've seen in a movie in a VERY long time. the music (i dont know if it was juno or not) by itself was crap, but it was so simple that it not only fit, but even enhanced it for me. you goons can troop in here and flame me, it wont change a bit.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not one but THREE Juno Reactor songs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


i wonder if those were during a few fight scenes because i was questioning it as soon as it started (it was kinda crap) but it took such a back seat after 15 seconds it never fucking mattered anyway.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lots of bad dialogue
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


listening for it, didnt hear any, sorry.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everything Zion related was kind of lame. Those annoying "Stomp" percussion people are crap. They are like a virus, getting into every part of pop culture... go bash a trash can somewhere else, you dropouts!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



hey i think they're decent. nothing new, but ok :rolleyes , as for zion being lame, i certainly didnt think so, it was just really primal. and not in a bad way. i thought that scene was really well done guys.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SOOOOOOOOO chessy. So so chessy. The "I squeeze your heart" scene looks cool but i laughed SO much!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



again, is it cool to hate heavy romance in an action movie, especially for this one, which was really well done? and as for those that said that we didnt see their relationship, does he have to constantly look her in the eye every single time and say something dumb? no, it's just how it was. it was love, they understood it once they said it once. neo was worried about trinity, and trinity promised him she wouldnt leave. that was about all that was really said. and all that was needed.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr millions smiths
blah!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


i say fucking cool. and they managed to give a good reason why he could do that so many times. they already have showed his overzealousness in the first matrix, so it would only make sense he would try to grab all as an independent.

and also.. about the fight scenes being too long. do you people just let these things whizz by you? the fucking detail is astounding! sheesh!


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is NO story in here, is a mess that at the end they try to fix with the architect but is too late .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



NO STORY???!!! they took the entire story of the last one, and systematically made it les and less grand as they replaced with another story that made the one, the agents, zion, and everything seem so impossibly trivial! which means that the ending's just going to be fantastically mind-blowing (in case you didnt notice, i have total faith in this movie). come on. remember in the first one the agents seems to be the be all end all, the gods, those that you had to avoid at all costs, and this ones makes them a TOOL. it rocked me back is what it did. morpheus' prophecy: wrong. the one: the one in a SERIES of ones. warring programs inside even the matrix, which gets trivialized by another reality altogether as humankind gets created again and again.

i'm tired, but i'll dive into this again, since i thought this was fucking fantastic second movie. which'll be my last point. the first movie set (excellently) the ground work, the concepts, the beginning. the second movie is a fight to resolve problems and events in the first one. so what will it mainly have? action. yeah. and oh, wait nothing's really going to be resolved in this one, because the third one is going to do it! why the hell was neo able to do in the real world what he could only do in the matrix? or is that even the real world. why could he do that, then fall into a coma?! you guys must realize that there's stilla third movie that's obviously going to make everything fit!

[Vibecrewangel]

I don't believe Morpeheus is wrong about the one. However, he believes in fate and destiny. This is a possibility. However, since this version of the matrix allows choice, it lowers the odds of that possibility being the one that comes to pass.

[Protoclown]

ROTTEN FRUIT BELOW

I realize everyone has their own personal taste, and some people just aren't going to like this movie.

But I have to question the comprehension of anyone who said the story was "boring" or that there in fact WAS no story at all. To anyone who said these things...I feel that the story was probably beyond your grasp. Perhaps you'd be more comfortable with movie that contains more tits and random explosions. Might I recommend "2 Fast 2 Furious"?

For my money, the second Matrix movie really added so many levels of complexity to the initial story. Like Rez said, it really trivializes so much of the first movie and shows you that the One isn't all that he appeared to be. He's just another cog in the system, albeit an important one.

Granted, any of us can only comprehend the story but so much at this point, given the fact that we're dealing with limited information that leads to several possible avenues of speculation. We'll have to wait and see how things turn out in the third movie, but so far they've done a fantastic job of upping the ante and throwing our perceptions further askew with each new chapter of the story. I have no doubt that some serious revelations await us in the final installment that will yet again change the way we view what came before.

Boring? Hardly.

Intriguing? Complex? Fascinating? Unexpected? You betcha.

[Vibecrewangel]

I have to agree with Proto. The more I think about the movie the more I realize that my inital perception was correct, but not deep enough.

The spiritual aspect was clearly on the surface. I was upset that I felt it was too obvious. But then, that was the point. It moved to the surface and another layer was revealed below. I'm sure my new perception is due in part to my new interest in theoretical math meets spiritualism. Concepts inside of concepts.

[Anonymous]

DO WE REALLY HAVE TO PUT SPOILER NOTICES IN HERE


I don't think they programmed the matrix after neo. They wouldn't have know who neo was until he was already created. He was not created by the architect as such.. He isn't programmed to be an anomaly. He is the undesirable product of an imperfect system. With an imperfect system you expect anomalies.. and develop a way to 'control' them. Whether or not neo chose what the other Ones did shouldn't matter because the matrix obviosly has defensive code and knowing what the other choice was it should be prepared to deal with it. Well, you'd think so anyway

Ok so one thing that I wonder about is... the frenchy guy says to neo about his predecessors (they have come to him before. I am assuming they must all get the key from him to get to the architect?) But then the key maker dies with neo. So either the key maker is recreated each time, or the One must always find some other way to get through the door to the architect, or the key maker always survived before with the other Ones and this is the first time he dies.

[Skulhedface]

:love Johnny :love


I'm going to sort of expand on what JHorton said. Hopefully, I won't slaughter this too much. It's theoretical math and I am just starting to grasp the concept. I've been teaching myself using the Matrix and Run Lola Run as my way to view the concept. Bear in mind, I have taught all of this to myself. If I am off base and you know it I would LOVE the input.

First, you have to look at existance as a 3 dimensional infinite grid. There is energy that moves through the grid. These energies are time, space and conciousness. Because these are all infinate anything is possible. For the sake of this, I am going to take a small section of the grid to work with. First, space. Space will fill up a section of the grid and make up the area of the Matrix. Time will run from the creation of the Matrix to the destruction of the Matrix. Say left to right over the section of the grid filled by space. Now you need to add conciousness. Conciousness will be human thought. It will run from top to bottom through the section of the grid. You now have time and conciousness intersecting in a set area of space known as the matrix. Events occur only at points of intersection.

The One is a conciousness at the point of a certain event. The One is created only at this event. Until this event The One does not exist. Every conciousness is a possibility. The closer you conciousness is to the time space intersection the more of a potential you are. In the first movie Neo and the other potentials are the ones closest to that intersection. Any one of them could be The One. The Oracle tells Neo he is not The One because at that time no one is. The event that creates The One has not occured. The kid with the spoon understands how the Matrix works. He uses the spoon to explain the concept to Neo. The spoon represents the future event. Thus, it does not exist. There is no spoon. (yet) He tells Neo not to try to bend it as that is impossible. You can not change the future from the now. He tells him to realize that it is not the spoon that bends only himself. His choices can lead him closer or further from the event and is what changes the outcome. Both the Oracle and the kid are teaching Neo how the Matrix works.



SPOILERS AHEAD





In the second movie Neo has learned more about the grid and how to maipulate it.

Neo has now also begun to "see" possible events on the grid. But, he is still having trouble understanding that they are only possible. Choices, his and those of others can change the event. When he sees Trinity die he is seeing a possible future. The kid with the spoon sees more including the possible choices for Neo. He is trying to help Neo make the right choice. But, he can not tell him what choice to make as then it isn't actually a choice. Instead he sends the spoon. The spoon this time represents the event of Trinitys death. In other words, don't try to stop the event before it happens, only try to move yourself towards the event. Neo doesn't get it. :) He tries to alter the event by asking Trinity not to go. He has effectivly limited her choices at a point in time this moved her conciousness closer to the event. Since Trinity was forced to stay her next possible choice was to stay put or go help. She chose to help. Again she moves closer to the event. If she had gone on the original mission, she may have been on another part of the grid and her choices might have kept her away from the event.
When Neo meets the Architect , the Architect explains the Matrix to him in more detail. On one level of the grid are the sleeping humans. They are limited to certain choices because they don't know any others exist. The ones that get woken up now have more choices and can potentialy move through more of the grid. The more you learn about the Matrix the more choices you have. The more choices the more movement.
Now, human conciousness is bound by certain perceptions. Time is linear. Conciousness can only be in one place at one time. No two of the same energy can be in the same space at the same time. Physical is real. This limits their choices such as jumping from one point to another. The programs are are not bound the same as the humans. This why the agents can jump to an event and force the occupying conciousness out. Smith, is bound by even less. He has figured out that his conciousness can be in more than one place at one time.
If a conciousness were to realize it was just energy, not a specific energy it would have no limits at all. Of course, this leads to you are everything and everything is you. This means everything is a single point. Existance becomes a cingularity and collapses in on itself. Once on the other side it is all possibilities again. Chaos to order to balance and back to chaos again.
This is the basis of Buddhist thought as well.

I could go on for hours.....
I hope this is at least a bit understandable.


In Run Lola Run, they have figured out how to move their conciousness on the time line. But, they can only move as far back as when they learned of the event they are trying to change. That's why she starts at the call. She then moves through the grid looking for choices that will lead them farther away from the the event. He is doing the same.

Very well written Vibe, but I have one catch-all.

In the first movie, it's never directly said, but implied that The Oracle had told Morpheus that he would find The One. Morpheus knew upon finding Neo that he had found The One. However, when Morpheus had found Neo, the events that led up to Neo being The One had not happened yet. That's the only catch I can find in an otherwise sound theory. And it's a small catch but an important one nonetheless.

(edit) But in support of your theory and arguing the claim that the previous "Ones" were Neo clones, not even the agents knew that Neo was the One, only that they were looking for the man Morpheus was searching for. Maybe because the Agents were actually kept in the dark (some deeper plan?) but you'd think they'd have known who The One is, after all, if the Architect still exists throughout all 6 versions (so far) of the Matrix, and the Agents as well (remember, Smith knew the history of the Matrix as well, as if he'd been around the whole time) then why would it have been so hard to find the NEW One? ALl the Agents would've had to do is just remember what he looks like, slap out a coupla wanted posters, and Bob's yer uncle.

[Anonymous]

You people think too much.

[Protoclown]

I think the theory that all "The Ones" have been clones of Neo is pure shit. I don't think anyone here has supported that theory, have they? I know I brought it up, but only to illustrate how strange I thought my friends' ideas were.

I think The One was definitely a COMPLETELY different person every time. And I've no doubt that with every incarnation of The Matrix and/or Zion, the Oracle plants the seeds that will inspire someone to seek out The One. This time it was Morpheus. Before it could have been Barnacle Bob, or someone else.

I think Agent Smith going rogue is a new element that hasn't occurred in any of the 5 previous instances, and I have a feeling that he's going to play a MAJOR role in the endgame and the final escape/breakdown of The Matrix, whether intentional or not. He's like a virus now, and the other Agents don't seem to know how to deal with him. They also seem surprised by his presence, which leads me to believe that the System isn't necessarily aware of Smith's return or what he's capable of now.

And to all of you who are saying we're reading too much into this or thinking too much about what is essentially an action movie, well, poo poo to you, I say! This is exactly what a good movie, no, a good STORY is supposed to do. Get the audience thinking and discussing ideas. Pure entertainment is fun too, a little fluff here and there is good for everyone. But movies like this, while entertaining, transcend that "pure entertainment" category and are actually WORTH discussing the meaning of and message behind. I'm not saying that these are the deepest films ever made. But they're deep enough to get a good discussion going. They are worthy.

I mean, what else should we discuss? The philosophical layers of "XXX"?

[Anonymous]

And to all of you who are saying we're reading too much into this or thinking too much about what is essentially an action movie, well, poo poo to you, I say! This is exactly what a good movie, no, a good STORY is supposed to do. Get the audience thinking and discussing ideas. Pure entertainment is fun too, a little fluff here and there is good for everyone. But movies like this, while entertaining, transcend that "pure entertainment" category and are actually WORTH discussing the meaning of and message behind. I'm not saying that these are the deepest films ever made. But they're deep enough to get a good discussion going. They are worthy.

Bah. Having a story full of vague philosophical implications and making your own fun by filling in the missing parts of the story like some 138-minute session of Mad Libs isn't my idea of a good story.

All I'm saying is this: I liked Agent Smith, and that's about it. I didn't really like the albino twins, the kung fu program that "only knows someone after he fights them," or the Antediluvian... Meridian... Whatever the hell the evil Frenchman was called.

I don't know; maybe I'm just angry because for me, Keanu will never be any more than just Ted Theodore Logan, or because Enter the Matrix was bland and uninspired. Whatever the case, all I saw was a neat action movie that a lot of people are reading too much into.

[wreckreation]

word. >:

[Vibecrewangel]

If you don't care about the matrix concept don't bother reading this. It isn't going to be about the movie itself.

I'm going to do my best to make this short. It is really hard to put into words the visual aspect of a concept that is only in my brain. However someone in the philo forum said that if you are able to understand something but can't explain it to anyone else it serves no purpose. I do not agree with that, however it gave me another point of view and I always try to take those into consideration when I am working on things. I understand the theory (I think) but I want to work on explaining it to others. Maybe then I can do it with other concepts.

Though the matrix is part of something infinate, it is only a part and has a limited number of possibilities based on the factors used to design it. The grid is simply the form I use to define a section of an endless expanse of energy. There are other forms that can be used, but this one works for me.
The architect builds the framework of the system as I described in the previous post. Initally he built a perfect system a system that was mathmaticaly balanced. A perfectly balanced system is a system with no "movement". With no movement there is no function. Thus it fails. So the architect had to design an imperfect system to assure it didn't stall out and fail.
Space (the earth and all stuff) and time are set first. Every possible moment in the time frame has to move through every possible section of space. This creates the possible when and where for events to occur. At this point every area is a possible location. Next the consciousness is added. In the matrix there are different types of consciousness. The humans. The programs. And the machines. Each is given it's own set of basic perameters. This determines how each consciousness will appear to the others at any event.
These are then set at designated places within the matrix.
Each individual consciousness is set at a particular point in space at the begining of time. Now areas of possible events are limited. Since time moves at a constant rate it will be impossible for any event to take place at certain points.
Here is where it gets tricky. Each consciousness becomes self aware at the begining of the time segment. Time moves at a constant speed through space and as each consciosness makes a choice this eliminates more possible events. Every single choice effects the possibilities of other choices.
Certain programs are able to view the matrix and all movement within it. The oracle is one of them. Time has passed and Morpheus is awake. He makes choices that move him through the grid. Some of his choices are effected by the choices of others. He goes to see the Oracle. The Oracle views the matrix and is able to see where the event of finding the one will happen. Morpheus can still make choices, however the choices available to him will only lead him to this event. She tells him he will find the one. Morpheus has now been given a destiny. Nothing is altered by this as it was the only possible outcome.
At this same time there are still too many possible potentials to determine who Morpheus will find. As it grows closer to the event it becomes clear to that it is Neo.
At the time Neo goes to see the Oracle he is still only a potential. So are others. This is why she tells him he is not the one.

The clone issue is easy to explain. The one is not the same consciousness each time. The one is whatever consciousness present at the time of the event. Who that is is determind by the movements made through the entire matrix. The time and place of the event might not even be the same as those would also be effected by movements.

In this theory there is no real physical world. Only levels of the Matrix. So far we have seen 2 levels. The programs and the sleepers function in one. The unplugged fuction there and in the next level with the machines and those never plugged in.

[tenno]

well me and hickman came to the same conclusion.....shit so ignore my post

[Zomboid]

Boogie, :worship . My thoughts exactly, only I liked the french guy.

[Protoclown]

Yeah, but you like Cable. So I'm not surprised you didn't understand a thing that was going on.

[Alxcipher]

The concept of a secondary Matrix or one Matrix seem rather obvious. The Oracle said to Neo that he had already made his choices he just needed to understand why he made them and the obvious answer was love in his choice with the architect. So was it all pre-determined? Was the Matrix a program that effectively created slaves who had no capacity to make choices? Perhaps the Matrix was not only a world but a simulation where its inhabitants are systematically duped into thinking they are autonomous. Did Neo ever really have a choice? I am also curious as to how to separate the "real" world dreams from the Matrix. If in fact the Matrix was already determined then Neo didn't have a choice once inside the Matrix and thus could see outcomes of what was going to happen within the program if he entered? Or perhaps thoughts placed in his head by the Matrix to lure his presence.

I construed Zion as the "real" world, in that it would create the Matrix's illusion far more believable if people think they can actually escape. This made me wonder how Neo stopped the Sentinels and I came to a conclusion similar to one put forth before that he has learnt to break rules in the real world now hence the passing out. Perhaps the Matrix served as an illustration for Neo to be able to transcend "rules" no matter on the context. This lead me to ideas about dual existence and multiple realities... To be concluded.

[Geggy]

I'm surprised anyone would dig deep into the movie, it wasn't even that hard to figure out. That's why I hated it. It lacked everything that the first Matrix film had...except there were more action in the second one. That's not saying much because I thought most of the action scenes were mediocre. 'XXX' kind of mediocre, that is. Remember when Neo flew through the city, destroying everything in the path to catch Trinity? Reminded me of Powerpuff Girls Movie. Yep.

[Vibecrewangel]

The funny thing is, I didn't read any of this into the movie. It was the other way around. I was using the movie to help me understand a theoretical concept I was having trouble with.

[kellychaos]

Don't look at me. I didn't even know that the "Narnia" series by C.S. Lewis had religious undertones until an instructor pointed it out in college. :/

[soundtest]

I'm not gonna pretend I paid anywhere near the attention some of you guys did to this movie, but I read all of this and found it very interesting. But I have a question that has been bugging me for awhile and maybe one of you guys could answer it:

If the whole purpose of the machines is to use humans for energy, then why exactly is the 'matrix' necessary? Could they not simply extract the same energy from comatose humans?

[Skulhedface]

As cheesy as it is, the answer was control.

Medically speaking, I'd think that would put out more energy than a comatose person, and as the people still in the Matrix are basically active, that's a lot of energy coming from the brain. I could be wrong, as I admit I know zilch about how a comatose mind works, but that's all I've got.

[Protoclown]

My roommate (Sarcastro, who posts on here about once every eon) has an interesting theory about that that he told me about last night.

He believes that the Matrix manipulated Neo into choosing the "humanity is fuct" door because they want to be rid of the Matrix, they want to completely do away with it, they don't NEED it to survive ("there are levels of survivability we are willing to accept").

But, he feels that the machines still can't simply eliminate it themselves. Suppose that the machines still have some ingrained compulsion to serve humanity, as that is what they were originally designed for. By creating a world within the Matrix, they are still serving humanity on some level, even as they use humans for their own needs. They COULD just pump static through the Matrix, but they don't.

So anyway, the way he sees it, they can't take it upon themselves to completely DESTROY humanity, but if they put the choice in the hands of a human and HE decides to fuck over humanity, then the machines have the excuse they were looking for and it doesn't violate their programming.

It's interesting. I'm particularly eager to see what Wreck thinks of all this, as I'm sure he's following this discussion closely.

EDIT: Oh, and Geggy, if the movie was so "obvious" to figure out, why don't you explain it to us philistines?

[soundtest]

Protoclown and Sarcastro: That's a very interesting point. The only question I'd have would be, haven't the machines already significantly surpassed the initial programming that the humans are responsible for? It would seem a little strange - although completely possible - that they will obey this prime directive, but ignore everything else that would most certainly be an inherent part of their programming (i.e. protect humans, never harm them, etc.). Ofcourse this does not negate the point - somewhere deep down in their BIOS (heh) could be that single command that they must obey.

My point before was that, if this is the case, the 'matrix' seems inefficient. The same energy could be extracted from comatose, or at very least, constant-REM-induced humans leaving zero room for rebellion (no communication, etc.). Unless somebody mastered lucid dreaming and became the "One" in that sense and oh I see a parallel :dunce

Like I said, I don't claim to understand much about this (I've only seen each one once and both times I was not exactly in the state of mind to remember details) - so if I missed something obvious, my apologies.

[FS]

My idea is, the Matrix might've been made so complex that it works like an overly bureaucratic system. One program answers to another and another and another. They have been written to be allowed a certain number of actions, but can't move outside of those. Otherwise agents, for instance, could just instantly kill anyone in the Matrix posing a problem. This could be tracked down to the highest programs, the ones that control everything, and for that purpose are as primitive yet efficient as insects. They would write programs complex enough to function inside the Matrix, but not complex enough to act independantly.

[Matt Harty]

Agents were made for the sole purpose of making the "free people" believe they had a point, and they were actually fighting for something.

Whether in Zion or the Matrix, they're always under control.

[Zomboid]

Yeah, but you like Cable. So I'm not surprised you didn't understand a thing that was going on.

Oh there's the typical reply I've been waiting for. Anyone who didn't like it didn't understand it. That's great...

[theapportioner]

Truth be told, the actual story, or "philosophy" of the movie isn't that interesting to me. What struck me was how they used blacks in a prominent, non demeaning way.

[Protoclown]

Yeah, but you like Cable. So I'm not surprised you didn't understand a thing that was going on.

Oh there's the typical reply I've been waiting for. Anyone who didn't like it didn't understand it. That's great...

Actually I made a point earlier to mention that I did NOT think that everyone who merely disliked the movie failed to understand it.

I just think that most people who found it boring probably did not comprehend everything that was happening. I have seen the movie twice now, and boring it is NOT.

There are plenty of reasons to dislike the movie if it wasn't your cup of tea. But "boring"? Please.

And I felt like slamming your love of Cable, because it's fun.

[Zomboid]

I understood it proto, but I don't think I need to remind you that you thinking it's not boring is just your opinion. I enjoyed the matrix more than ever when I saw it recently, so maybe the same will happen for reloaded (several viewings over a long period of time), but I wasn't really impressed by the same tricks they used in the last movie all over again. Some things were pretty cool though.

As for cable, I don't "love" or even like him more than most comic characters. He's just a character I like. Bringing it up over and over is just making it lose it's effect, so keep it up if ya want.

[Protoclown]

you like cable tee hee

[timrpgland]

I saw Reloaded last Saturday and I liked it better than the first. The Revolutions trailer looked a little disappointing though but hopefully it will clear everything up.

[placebo009]

I'M SPOILING EVERYTHING!



ok i see that this bored is turning to like...more discussion of what the matrix actually is rather than opinions on reloaded...but i'm an opinionated fool and feel like going on a rant anyway.

i don't see how people can say that reloaded was anywhere near as good as the first one. the only thing that could have superceeded the first one was the special effects, but you can't base a movie on that. it needs a good plot. something the first one had and the second was seriously lacking.

another big gripe of mine was how so many things were seriously under developed. like that mouse-wannabe kid. what was his purpose? all they said about him was that neo saved his life and now he was a pain in the ass. that's all. so unless they're going to kill off neo and make this kid the new "one" (highly unlikely, i think) then there was so real reason to introduce him.

another thing that bothered me was the whole morpheus/naobi thing. it started out like it was going to develope into something and then it just sort of quit. as far as i'm concerned they just needed someone to catch morpheus' ass when he fell off a truck. so unless she intends to be some great super hero in the third one, then i thought her character sucked as well. and he new boyfriend was a complete tool.

another thing: what exactly was the french dude's deal? like...yah he had some interesting things to say, but who was he supposed to be? was he maybe one the former "ones"? someone gimmie some input on this.

and was it just me or were a lot of the fight scenes like...forced? like when neo went to see the oracle and he had to fight that dude? that wasn't *really* nessicary. i'll admit, it was real real cool, but not really nessicary.

ah, that's all i got for now. if someone could like...gimmie some opinions on what i said...that would be awesome. thanks for readin'

[Vibecrewangel]

I think if anyone is going to turn out to be a former One it's going to be the Architect.

[timrpgland]

placebo009 you do realize that there is another movie coming out and most of your gripes are just that things are left unanswered. That's what Revolutions is for.

The movie was incredibly watchable and interesting.

[FS]

another big gripe of mine was how so many things were seriously under developed. like that mouse-wannabe kid. what was his purpose? all they said about him was that neo saved his life and now he was a pain in the ass. that's all. so unless they're going to kill off neo and make this kid the new "one" (highly unlikely, i think) then there was so real reason to introduce him.

I see two possibilities: 1) he was a minor character, or 2) he's going to get more screentime in the next movie.

another thing that bothered me was the whole morpheus/naobi thing. it started out like it was going to develope into something and then it just sort of quit. as far as i'm concerned they just needed someone to catch morpheus' ass when he fell off a truck. so unless she intends to be some great super hero in the third one, then i thought her character sucked as well. and he new boyfriend was a complete tool.

Again, Matrix:Reloaded wasn't a complete story. For one thing, Niobe is one of the main characters in the videogame Enter The Matrix, a game that was made alongside Matrix:Reloaded with a story that fits in with the trilogy - and for another, it's extremely likely that Niobe will be back for Matrix:Revolutions. I wouldn't be surprised if Commander Lock dies in that movie and Niobe and Morpheus get back together.

another thing: what exactly was the french dude's deal? like...yah he had some interesting things to say, but who was he supposed to be? was he maybe one the former "ones"? someone gimmie some input on this.

Come on, if you weren't paying attention to the story, how can you say you didn't like it? He was a special program of sorts to guard the Keymaker.

and was it just me or were a lot of the fight scenes like...forced? like when neo went to see the oracle and he had to fight that dude? that wasn't *really* nessicary. i'll admit, it was real real cool, but not really nessicary.

I suppose it wasn't a great excuse to show another fight scene. Can someone refresh my memory where that line about not knowing someone until you've fought them comes from, aside from this scene?

[Spectre X]

Placebo, you fucking idiot. If you had only opened your eyes you would have noticed that the Merovingian was a rogue program, like Smith now is.

Niobe's role in the movie didn't just 'quite' it goes on in Enter the Matrix, which is made to fill in the story of Reloaded a bit.

Also, if the Architect turns out to be a former 'One' I'll eat my lunch, I don't want to take the risk of having to eat my shoe.

Oh, and that kid Neo saved, it was a kid from one of the Animatrix shorts.

EDIT: DAMN YOU FS! >:

[Vibecrewangel]

Interesting article on the Matrix.


And the Oscar for Best Scholar . . .
By MICHAEL AGGER
Cornel West plays Councillor West in "The Matrix
Reloaded."
What is Cornel West doing in "The Matrix Reloaded"?

Maybe this Princeton philosophy professor's cameo
shouldn't be a surprise. In 1999, Larry and Andy
Wachowski stated their ambition to make an
"intellectual action movie" and they actually pulled
it off. The first "Matrix" movie gave the equivalent
of a cinematic high-five to the French thinker and
philosopher Jean Baudrillard by featuring his book
"Simulacra and Simulation" in an early scene. If you
look closely (and people did), you could see that the
book was open to a particular chapter, "On Nihilism."
The Wachowski brothers seized upon Mr. Baudrillard's
general nihilistic notion that we must deconstruct the
images (television, movies, advertising, clothing)
that oppress us and imbue them with a new set of
values. They skillfully retold an archetypal messiah
story with a dash of postmodern theory.

In an interview with The New York Times last year, Mr.
Baudrillard said that the movie's use of his work
"stemmed mostly from misunderstandings." But this
time, the Wachowskis have found a more willing
philosophical accomplice. Dr. West appears (minus his
trademark glasses) as a wise councillor of Zion, the
last free human city on earth. He delivers only one
line, but it's a doozy: "Comprehension is not
requisite for cooperation." Those words have already
been spotted on T-shirts in Los Angeles.

Like the Wachowskis, Dr. West draws on an impressively
wide array of sources for his work. And Dr. West has
always aspired to be a very public intellectual — he's
recorded a rap album, he's a regular on television
shows and he writes for a nonacademic audience in
publications like Spin — so it's not surprising to
find him involved in one of the biggest spectacles of
the decade. A self-described "intellectual freedom
fighter," his studies address the legacy of racism and
the problem of nihilism in black America. Larry
Wachowski loved Dr. West's writings so much —
particularly the books "Race Matters" and "Prophesy
Deliverance!" — that he decided to write a role for
Dr. West in the movie, playing a loose version of
himself. Which makes one wonder: after the Wachowskis
told us to deconstruct reality Ã* la Baudrillard, are
they now rebuilding reality with the ideas of Dr.
West?

Reached by telephone in his office in Princeton, Dr.
West said that he and the Wachowski brothers had come
together in "acknowledging the full-fledged and
complex humanity of black people, which is a
relatively new idea in Hollywood given pervasive
racist stereotypes." And, indeed, "The Matrix
Reloaded" gives prominent roles and screen time to
African-American stars like Laurence Fishburne and
Jada Pinkett Smith. A more tantalizing connection
seems to be Dr. West's notion of the jazz freedom
fighter that concludes his book "Race Matters." He
writes: "I use the term `jazz' here not so much as a
term for a musical art form as for a mode of being in
the world, an improvisational mode of protean, fluid
and flexible dispositions toward reality suspicious of
`either/or viewpoints.' "

This seems to jibe with the direction that Neo, the
character played by Mr. Reeves, is taking, as he
discovers that the world of the Matrix is not
operating by fixed rules but is something more
permeable and uncertain. Dr. West also pointed out
that "the second Matrix movie actually critiques the
idea of the first. It's suspicious of salvation
narratives. It's deeply anti-dogmatic. The critics
haven't figured that out yet, but the scholars will
get to it."

While in Sydney for the movie shoot, Dr. West said he
and the Wachowskis had bonded over "wrestling with the
meaning of life and the purpose of human existence."
They share an affinity for plucking ideas from
religion, philosophy, pop music, television and
movies, and synthesizing them into a prophetic,
liberating message. They want to make the world a more
philosophical place. (The brothers even gave reading
assignments to all of the principal actors in the
movie.)

Dr. West was coy when asked if he had a longer speech
in the final installment of the trilogy, but he did
say that he will appear in a documentary about the
series where he expounds further on his ideas. Until
then, he has some advice for the audiences going to
see the movie: "You've got to look beneath the special
effects."

{Michael Agger is an editor and writer for the Goings
On About Town section of The New Yorker.}

[Protoclown]

Vibecrew, thanks for posting that. It was a good article, and I am really starting to think that the story for Reloaded was actually better than the first movie. It's definitely more complex.

Placebo, it's been said before, but you obviously didn't pay attention to the movie, or you would already know the answers to some of your questions. The only other alternative is that you're an idiot.

And another thing...THERE IS GOING TO BE A THIRD MOVIE. How can you expect everything to be neatly resolved by the end of part two? How the hell would that make for interesting storytelling??

[Vibecrewangel]

I'm begining to think that too. I'll have to see it again to make a better call.

Even in the first movie there were things I didn't pick up on until I had seen it 2 or 3 times. And one I didn't catch until yesterday. When Neo first gets arrested you see him through a bank of screens all with the same view of him on them. You then pull through a single screen and into the scene. The first time you see the movie it doesn't stick in your mind. But after a few runs it becomes obvious. I thought it was just some strange directors visual concept as they didn't seem to attach to anything. Watching it now it looks to be the same screens used in thee Architect scene in the second movie.

I seriously doubt that much in the film is simply chance or artsy. I think the less you understand it the more important it really is to a particular piece of the plot.

[Protoclown]

Woah, that's pretty cool! Having not seen the first movie since I've seen Matrix Reloaded, I hadn't even thought about that!

I'm sure that if I were to go back and watch the first one again, I would see a lot of symbolism and parallels that continue into the second movie that I never noticed before.

I like what Cornel West said in that article you posted. That the critics haven't quite caught on to the depth of the second movie yet, but the scholars are on the road to figuring it out.

[Krythor]

I haven't had a chance to see Reloaded yet (it was only released here today,) but I'm not bothered about spoilers anyway. I don't know if this has been said yet, but a user at another board I visit came to the conclusion that, since in the first movie it was stated that the Matrix is so realistic that, once you die there, you die in real life too, so it's a possibility that Neo's powers in the matrix have rubbed off into real life.

[Vibecrewangel]

Proto -
The part about the critics is so true. But then, critics are often the worst of the average American movie goer.

[Mockery]

For those of you who didn't catch the entire conversation between Neo and the Architect, here it is:

The Architect - Hello, Neo.

Neo - Who are you?

The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also irrelevant.

Neo - Why am I here?

The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.

Neo - You haven't answered my question.

The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Others? What others? How many? Answer me!"*

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bullshit."*

Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.

The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "You can't control me! F*ck you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do anything!*

Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architect's room*

The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo - The Oracle.

The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo - This is about Zion.

The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo - Bullshit.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Bullshit!"*

The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room.*

The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.

The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.

*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*

The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.

*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neo's dream appear on the monitors*

Neo - Trinity.

The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

Neo - No!

The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.

*Neo walks to the door on his left*

The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.

Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.

The Architect - We won't.

[executioneer]

I bet all the "people" in the Matrix are really AIs too :eek

-willie

[FS]

Cool, thanks Rog.

Vibe's suggestion that the Architect is a former One brought something to my mind that might further support the theory that Zion is another layer of the Matrix.

In the first movie, Morpheus says that humanity believes that the year is somewhere around 2200 (roughly pulled from memory). The Architect says there's been five previous versions of the Matrix which all failed. I would think that each version lasts at the very least one or two centuries before a new One rises. So, either humanity made a gross miscalculation in guessing the year they woke up in, or the real world is closer to the year of 3000.

But if the Architect were a former One in that case, that would have to mean either the One does not exist in the real world, because he is purely a program written in the Matrix - how could the Architect still be alive after all these years, otherwise? - or the Architect, as the One, managed to digitalise his mind to live beyond his human body. Still, it might be interesting. As the former One, he could have reshaped the Matrix the way he saw fit, and probably would not want Neo to destroy his hard work. He might've lied to him.

[Vibecrewangel]

Thanks Rog! Gives a lot more to ponder. Like the fact that he refers to Neo as both human and possibly a program as well.

BTW - where did you pull it from? I am curious about the reference to the "Other Ones on the screens"
I'd love to know if that is an opinion or what was actually intended.


My suggestion that the Architect was a previous One was in response to someone who thought the french guy might be a former One. All I was trying to say was that based on what I had seen so far IF there was another One that had been shown in the movies it was most likely the Architect.


Eghads this leaves a lot open to interpretation.

[timrpgland]

Hell, I'm just glad Revolutions isn't that far off.

[Protoclown]

I am curious about the reference to the "Other Ones on the screens" I'd love to know if that is an opinion or what was actually intended.

The way I read that it was simply another way of saying "the other Neos on the screens". I don't think it was implying that they were previous "Ones" but I could be wrong.

[Anonymous]

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bullshit."*
Weird that he'd say 'three' if they weren't other 'Ones.' Unless in one choice, he couldn't count.
Then again, weird that he'd say 'five' as another 'One.' And there were definitely more than six Neos on the screens.

[Skulhedface]

That's kind of what I'd been saying earlier... that there should only have been 5 other Neos, not counting our current one, but there sure were a lot more than 6 responses onscreen, which leads me to think it's all artificially created rather than prerecorded.

[Spectre X]

the monitors showed the possible answers Neo could have given.

[Zomboid]

the monitors showed the possible answers Neo could have given.
NO SHIT!

I'm fucking amazed at how many people are saying "they were probably the previous ones". There weren't a shitload of "ones" before neo, and I find it doubtful they looked exactly the same. One of them even gave the finger in the same way he did in the first movie. They sounded the same too.

You people and damn near everyone else in online matrix discussions read way too into things.

[timrpgland]

What I thought was more interesting was the door he picked.

[soundtest]

Speaking of doors... did anybody else notice the door "101"? I forget which scene... (or is that the one he picked and the one you're referring to tim?). Was that an Orwell 1984 reference?

[timrpgland]

I'm just referring to the 2 doors that the architect had him choose from. He took the door on his left which was a interesting choice. I want to see how things turn out.

[Ninjavenom]

Yes, i saw that too soundtest. Right before they walk into the restaurant to talk to frenchy. I thought it was just a reference to binary code.

Anyway, i saw this today. It kicked copious amounts of ass, fuck all the doubters. I sat next to three kids who felt for some reason that everytime Neo wailed an agent with that pipe that an "OOOOOHHHH" or a "hahaha" was appropriate. I hope they all burn in hell. The people in front of me, for some damned reason, decided to bring their four children, all from 7 to eleven years old. Consequently, the little bastards made a lot of noise during critical moments during speeches. I fucking hate people at the movies.

But the movie itself was so awesome i had several extreme orgasms during it. The freeway fight scene is the coolest thing i have ever seen, there is nothing to rival it. The Hallway battle and the Multiple Smith battle were also mid-blowingly cool, as were scenes of Neo's flight. The twins were fucking cool, and i actually liked Trinity this time, she seemed much cooler and seemed to care much more about Neo than before. I thought the love scene was pretty well done, it made it seem like Neo and Trinity had some love, instead of just seeming like Keanau having sex with Carrie Ann Moss for a different movie. Carrie Ann Moss is kinda cute too, so that doesn't hurt. I like how she's not some 21 year old bimbo they found off the streets, she's an actual actress with a lot of history behind her, and she can play her roles believably. Niobe had some healthy looking teeth, too. The only two things i didn't like were the abrupt end to the movie, and the Dave Matthews song at the credits, but those hardly even count.

Now, for my interpretation of the end. What if the Architect was also a program? He might have been created simply to keep "the one" in check every time, so that he does not find out that perhaps what the Architect offers him truly isn't the only choice that is given to him. Perhaps destroying "The Architect" or by breaking through the master control room somehow, Neo is able to access the true Master Control room. If i'm not mistaken, the Architect was in the Matrix, neo never really accessed the true control room. I doubt the all-knowing master programmer of some virtual-reality world is going to sit in a chair in a room full of TVs all day without having anything to eat or drink.

[Johnny Horton]

Keanu Reeves looks really swell in a long dress. Very sexy, if you are so persuaded.

[Captain Robo]

I loved this movie :(

Better than Star Wars :O

[Spectre X]

Robo, you are everything that is wrong with the world. Go away.

[snake]

When is Matrix Revolutions coming ?

After I saw the movie a guy in my class told me something to change my opinion on what happened when NEO stops the sentinels in the end.

One of you explained this by saying that the Smith duplicate with blood on his hands shaked NEOs hand. However, even if this would give Neo the ability to sense the sentinels it would not give him the ability to stop them. And they did stop before they attacked, not immideately like during a EMP and when Neo was expiriencing excruciating pain.

Anyway the solution the person I knew had was that there was another matrix within the matrix, a web within the web. This would suggest that Zion was also a lie and show that the machines had complete controll after all.

Neo is an error in the system, and even though the machines can control him he has more freedom then the others. I think the pain he expirienced when confronted with the sentinels could have been his brain trying to wake up from the "real matrix"

[Spectre X]

my guess is is that that is very wrong. It's too obvious. My guess is, is that Neo can stop the Sentinels in the real world too now because his mind makes it real. Like the injuries he sustains in the Matrix. Because he took the door to save Trinity, he has transcended beyond the One. He has powers in the real world now too, because the glitch in the Matrix programming leading to the creation of the One, is embedded into his mind like the rogue Agent Smith is is in the hand-cutting guy's head. Somehow opening the door to save Trinity has influenced the glitch in his mind firther so that his mind is like he is constantly in the Matrix, only wide awake. This might lead to the fact that he can feel the Sentinels becuase he is AND connected to the MAtrix with his mind from a distance, AND because his mind makes it real like the injuries.

That's my theory.

[ziggytrix]

I'm gonna have to watch this movie a few more times.

[Captain Robo]

Robo, you are everything that is wrong with the world. Go away.

Spectre X is very good with jokes :rolleyes

You want me to bring up some of your other "classic" idiotic statements?

[FS]

Snake, skim through the replies in this post, there's ample coverage of the theory that Zion is a second layer of the Matrix, and therefore not real.

[snake]

I hope they get a sex scene with Persephone in the next movie. She was incredibly hot.

I also think that the final movie will tell us that he had a hard-on while he kissed her. This is symbolic and means that the grass is always greener on the other side. I think hes going to leave Trinity and then shes going to betray Zion and humankind to those machines and have sex with them instead of Neo.

[Captain Robo]

I'm not gonna pretend I paid anywhere near the attention some of you guys did to this movie, but I read all of this and found it very interesting. But I have a question that has been bugging me for awhile and maybe one of you guys could answer it:

If the whole purpose of the machines is to use humans for energy, then why exactly is the 'matrix' necessary? Could they not simply extract the same energy from comatose humans?

Soundtest, the only electrical system in the body is the nervous system. Your senses are all the result of electrical firings and synapses of your nerves. Wouldn't it make sense to keep the nervous system as active as possible to extract the peak amount of energy?

[snake]

Actually as much pain as possible would create lesser intervalls between the synapses. They should have created a hell based on Dante instead. Hows that for efficient energy :lol

[Protoclown]

Now, for my interpretation of the end. What if the Architect was also a program?

I thought it was pretty much a given that the Architect was a program. It's not as if the real guy could still be alive after hundreds of years. And it's not as if a human would have designed the Matrix anyway. I think the Architect is supposed to be the main program behind the Matrix.

[liquidstatik]

So, I wander who actually did created the matrix :/

[Ninjavenom]

Yeah, i guess that was a pretty obvious thing to point out, now that i think about it, Proto.

[CaptainBubba]

Spectre, his mind couldn't "make it real" in the true physical world. That makes no sense. The only way that part of the movie could possibly make sense is if Zion is a second matrix. If its not and they come up with some half assed religious or metaphysical excuse I'm going to fucking murder the Wachowski bros.

Other than that it was a damn good movie. I have to see the third before I make my final conclusion on it though, because this is really only half a movie.

[WorthlessLiar]

So, I wander who actually did created the matrix :/

Indeed, it is interesting to think that if there is a matrix within a matrix (and maybe a matrix within that) it may not be the machines in charge in the real world. Maybe its humans controlling other humans. On the other hand this would render all the nice mythology they've built around the matrix and expanded through the animatrix and the videogame rather pointless. Then again, maybe that's the point.

[Ninjavenom]

Spectre, his mind couldn't "make it real" in the true physical world. That makes no sense.

It's a movie. And with the Wachowski Brothers, i wouldn't put it past them to put some crazy twist in there somehow.

[The_voice_of_reason]

you know what that movie needed? MORE FIGHT SCENES i only counted 798079697 of them. Their was also almost 9 minutes of dialog!!! Do you know how much asskicking could have been done in that time!!!

[Skulhedface]

So, I wander who actually did created the matrix :/

If I gather correctly, the machines did. Remember in the first movie Morpheus was talking about how humans had given birth to AI. From there the machines fought man, and apparently started winning, forcing the remaining humans to block out the sky and flee to Zion. Well, the machines had figured out that they could use humans as an energy source, and figured out how to pacify them to harness their energy:

*drum roll*

THE MATRIX!

Doesn't that just bake your noodle? And would you have indeed baked that noodle if I hadn't said it?

[Protoclown]

Yes, the Machines built the Matrix. If the first movie wasn't enough to tell you that, watch the fourth Animatrix segment that's available on the website. It's part 2 of that 2-parter that I can't remember the name of.

[WorthlessLiar]

Yes, it was the machines that built the matrix that Neo broke free of but if Zion is another system of control and part of yet another Matrix, isn't it possible that someone else is in charge after all? The rule of the machines could be another lie. I don't think they'd take the movie this direction but it is possible.

[FS]

I think it's more likely that the Machines built the Matrix first, then found that people were trying to escape it, and built the world of Zion around it to capture them.

If the war against the Machines was already an event inside of the Matrix, the story of the third movie would probably suck. That'd dismiss all of mankind's efforts to be free. So, I really doubt they'll do that.

[kinot]

I would like to talk about the movie philosophically, but my time is cut short. So I'll try to get real simple about it.

The movie was fucking brilliant. I really thought Reloaded was going to be an all out action flick, but I was wrong. I enjoyed the movie from beginning to the last 10 seconds of it (excluding credits and trailer). The 10 seconds I didn't enjoy with the movie was when the 'To be Concluded' (yes, I know it's a trilogy) text to be scored with a horrendous DumDumDUMMMM-esque manner.
Spoilers (Including Animatrix and Enter the Matrix)
One other problem I had with the movie was the 'Agent Zion Smith', it didn't show a lot of development of him (There was, however, a scene in Enter the Matrix that shown his crewmates dead inside his ship while he was leaving it with the knife in his hand.) So when the movie progressed through you would practically forget about him, even twice with the council meeteing, until the end.

For those that had the chance see the unreleased Animatrix episodes. The 'mouse-boy' (as someone who recently referred him as) character was actually the main character in 'A Boy's Story' of the Animatrix. That was why the whole "You saved me." 'No you saved yourself.'" scene was trying to stand out at the time of their conversation (Just for those who care about it).

Ok Im too lazy for proofreading and adding more crap. See you.




ps. Oh, and one more thing (Not to be off-topic or anything :P) but how did Dozer die? The only clue was when his sister said she lost two of her brothers on the Neb, and I'm sure Dozer did live after the Cypher incident up unto the end of the first movie.

[Protoclown]

You're thinking of Tank. We saw Dozer die on screen in the first movie.

[kinot]

I should've trusted my doubt at that time.

[punkgrrrlie10]

I would like to talk about the movie philosophically, but my time is cut short. So I'll try to get real simple about it.

you did not make one philosophical observation in your entire post, unless it was merely that sentence in which, we are to delve into the true meaning of "simple about it" as not speaking about it at all.

As far as philos is concerned, if they stay on the path they are on, possible to have matrix w/in a matrix and the whole predestination stuff the source talks about and yet the source is not really the source but you think it is...oh the possibilities are endless. The movie is ripe with medieval philosophy and platonic thought it makes me tingly. [/i]

[Anonymous]

Neo's only 'power' in the matrix is the ability to severly bend or break the rules of the system. He doesn't have the specific ability to fly per se, simply the ability to act with minor inhibitions.

That said, his 'powers' can't carry into the Zion world because his only 'power' is broadened choice.

*And I realize that the many Neos on the screens were available choices. I was debunking two theories on The Ones, not supporting either.

[soundtest]

Tank died because he wanted too much money to reprise the role. :lol

http://www.boycottthematrix.com/

[CaptainBubba]

When the architect is displaying moments from Neo's life on the sceens, Zion is shown. This leaves 3 possibilites:

1. The architect can read minds
2. Zion is bugged with cameras
3. Zion is a second matrix.

[Protoclown]

4. The writers didn't realize what they were doing

Which I doubt is the case. Bubba, you raise a DAMNED interesting point.

[punkgrrrlie10]

When the architect is displaying moments from Neo's life on the sceens, Zion is shown. This leaves 3 possibilites:

1. The architect can read minds
2. Zion is bugged with cameras
3. Zion is a second matrix.

The architect said that there were other "ones" before him which means that the others on the screen were the "ones" who reacted to the architect before, not necessarily the "one" that is before him.

[snake]

As someone on this thread pointed out earlier we saw that Bane (or rather another copy of Smith) cut his hand and shaked Neos. The same person suggested that it could have been made Neo able to sense the sentinels.

- Another idea then came to my mind. What if Neo didnt stop the Sentinels. What if they were sensing some of Smiths programming within him, stopped and then self destructed or something becouse they arent supposed to attack other machines. Its probably a far shot but its something to take note of.

- Also. In the first movie, Agent Smith talks of other Matrixes to Morpheus when he is being held captive. Smith is spesifically refering to the "first Matrix". Why doesent Morpheus mention this to Neo? During Neos conversation with the Architect his respond to the fact that there are other matrixes are "either anyone has not told me or anyone.........doesent know."

My point is, that there have been other Matrixes are very important so why has not Morpheus mentioned it to Neo?

- The divinely powerfull rogue program that was supposed to protect the keymaker. Was all his power just having a bunch of helpers? becouse he ran when confronted with Neo.

- In the first movie, The One is supposed to do whatever the fuck he wants with the code that is "the matrix" I expected him to not even fight in the last movie, why couldnt he just erase the agents from the code, raze buildings to the ground, stop time, or whatever he wants? Actually I had expected him to completely abandon his human form when in the Matrix. Maybe this is what will happen in the third movie, Neo may still free his mind completely and metamorphose into some purely digital thing

[CaptainBubba]

Punkgirl: How is that relevant to my point? And I also disagree with you., but assuming you're correct that it may be the previous ones on the screen, that would just mean that the previous zions were being shown when the previous "ones" were in them. It doesn't change anything regarding what I was saying.

Honestly I don't believe those were other "the ones" though.

[JaKe]

Snake wrote:
Another idea then came to my mind. What if Neo didnt stop the Sentinels. What if they were sensing some of Smiths programming within him, stopped and then self destructed or something becouse they arent supposed to attack other machines. Its probably a far shot but its something to take note of.



------------

What if, like, the whole world was the matrix, inside and out, so he could kill them because he was still inside the matrix. That would mess with some perceptions.

[Krythor]

Maybe you haven't been paying attention to the rest of the thread or something, but that's quite the popular opinion already.

[Skulhedface]

I just had another idea...

what if all those answers are wrong? After all, maybe it's the system's way of keeping control...

The Architect, sensing that humanity was nearing the core of the Matrix, thus nullifying their chief energy source, came to Neo in the form of a personified program (ala the Oracle, Agent Smith, etc.) and played it cool to try to manipulate Neo into making the choice that would benefit the Matrix and the machines in general (loosely a la Total Recall) ?

A program would have a much easier time playing it "cool" than a human would, which is why the Architect wouldn't show any worry, despite the fact that the machines were about to experience a turning tide in the war and be on the losing side.

[FS]

The architect said that there were other "ones" before him which means that the others on the screen were the "ones" who reacted to the architect before, not necessarily the "one" that is before him.

Impossible. As said before in this thread, there were only 5 other Matrices before this one, so there can't have been more than 5 other Ones. I'd go with Skullhedface's explanation that the Neos on the screens are like an extrapolation of Neo's character that the Architect made prior to his arrival, transmitting all of his possible reactions to the Architect's words. That makes it more funny when they simultaneously say "Bullshit!" because it's apparently the only possible reaction Neo can give.

About Agent Smith in Bane's body, the main question is WHY did he cut up his hand to get his blood on Neo? Considering that they're both unconscious at the very end of Matrix:Reloaded, my theory right now is that getting his blood on Neo somehow drew Neo back into the (primary) Matrix with no possibility of escape - allowing Smith to face him with all of his clones, perhaps in the rain battle shown in the trailer. But I think the blood stands separate from Neo stopping the Sentinels. I think that was a direct consequence of his talk with the Architect, in which he probably figured out himself that Zion isn't the real world either.

- Also. In the first movie, Agent Smith talks of other Matrixes to Morpheus when he is being held captive. Smith is spesifically refering to the "first Matrix". Why doesent Morpheus mention this to Neo? During Neos conversation with the Architect his respond to the fact that there are other matrixes are "either anyone has not told me or anyone.........doesent know."

There's a couple of possible explanations for that... One, Morpheus was barely conscious while being interrogated. He might not even have heard Smith. Two, the way Smith was talking about the first Matrix, I just considered it like an early beta version of the Matrix, that was a complete failure, after which they rebuilt it to make it more acceptable to humans. It's strange, though, that Smith would know there's been previous versions. But even before being "freed" from being an Agent, there seemed to be more to him than just a program serving the system.

A program would have a much easier time playing it "cool" than a human would, which is why the Architect wouldn't show any worry, despite the fact that the machines were about to experience a turning tide in the war and be on the losing side.

Hm... Could be, but I think the Architect would not show emotion regardless of whether or not Neo serves his purposes - he is a program, after all. Besides, from the conversation I got the impression that the great difference between man and machine in the war is that the machines, lacking emotion, are willing to completely sacrifice themselves in order to destroy humanity and end the war. Which would be the consequence to killing all humans in the Matrix, considering they're seemingly the only source of energy. The way the choice was set up would serve the Machines eitherway - either Zion would be exterminated and rebuilt, allowing the system to live on unthreatened, or every being in Zion and the Matrix would be destroyed, ending the war with a pyrrhic victory for the Machines.

[Vibecrewangel]

RUMOR

I've heard that in the video game there are three factions. The humans, the programs and the machines.
If the this is part of the plot in the third movie things are gonna get interesting.

[Protoclown]

I agree with FatSatan on most of the points he raised. The other Neo's on the monitors couldn't have been other "Ones", they were just an extrapolation of Neo's possible reactions. And I seriously doubt Zion comes back looking the same every time after it is destroyed, so Bubba's interesting point still stands.

As for Morpheus not telling Neo about the first Matrix, I think that at the time, that information was irrelevant. Without the knowledge that there have been multiple "Ones", any revelation of a previous beta version of the Matrix was completely inconsequential. Interesting, but having no real bearing on their current situation.

[Spectre X]

the cutting of Bane/Smith's was propably more Smith being fascinated with pain and blood, since we all know that Agents do not feel pain or bleed, since they can go on forever.

I do not believ that Zion is a second Matrix, too predictable for anyone who has seen Reloaded. The W brothers will propably come up with something more original.

I stand firm by my statement of Neo actually being part program and part human, the program part being the accumulation of the Matrix anomaly, the human part being the part that loves Trinity, the program par tthat makes him able to reprogram the Matrix to his will. the program part might have been affected by the choice to save Trinity making him able to do his magic in a limited form in the real world because part of his mind subconsciously thinks that he is still in the Matrix, giving him the powers to a limited degree outside of the Matrix because his mind 'makes it real' as with the injuries. The human mind is a powerfull thing. the reason why he collapsed is highly likey, as Chojin said because the use of them took a lot of his normal energy, instead of effortlessly reprogramming the Matrix. Outside of the Matrix, he propably reprograms the laws of physics with his kind as he would in the Matrix, but he uses his own energy for it, exhausting him.

The only thing I have left to say is that Neo doesn't bend or break the rules in the Matrix and creates a bigger range of choice for huimself. He rewrites code, making him something of a god, and when he gets enough time to develope his powers, he WILL be a god, he will be able to do anything.

[Bennett]

As I understood it, there were previous Matrices that failed for one reason or another, as he explains, the first one was perfect, etc. etc. The reason that the current Matrix works, is in part because of the anamoly. In this sense, all five of the previous "ones" were part of the current Matrix which survives by being cyclical. Neither the Matrix or the human race is completely destroyed. So from this point of view, the other screens could have been the previous "ones."

[FS]

Vibe, that's an empty rumor. In the videogame, you just play a number of missions in the Matrix, connecting to events from just before and during the movie Matrix:Reloaded. It's an interesting concept - the Programs could've experienced all kinds of new sensations while existing in the Matrix, and decide they're no longer content serving the purposes of the emotionless Machines. But I don't think there'd be enough time to introduce that into the next movie. If there was a faction of Programs, I think it'd be Smith.

the cutting of Bane/Smith's was propably more Smith being fascinated with pain and blood, since we all know that Agents do not feel pain or bleed, since they can go on forever.

That could be. I noticed when I saw part of that scene again in Enter the Matrix that he's already got two older cuts in his hand. And either I wasn't paying enough attention in the theatre or I just don't remember, but did he actually shake hands with Neo or did he just wave at him? Cause, wouldn't Neo have felt the blood on his hand? That whole scene feels foggy in my memory, probably because I was primed for Bane attacking Neo with his knife.

I'm still open to the idea that Zion is the real world, fitted into the plan of the Machines, but the arguments given for it being a second layer of the Matrix are pretty convincing. I think the next movie will go with that.

[snake]

Bane shakes Neos hand. I noticed it after seeing reloaded for the second time. However. We dont actually see the handsshake so it might be that the hand that is in contact with Neo is his other hand. As FS said, Neo should have reacted if he shook a bloody hand.

Maybe its supposed to be purely symbolic too. Neo has smiths blood on his hands or something like that.

[Wang]

i agree with spectre x, Bennet and the last guy, their opinions are the more realistic ones. besides , didnt smith cut his hand way before me meet neo? it may have healed and he wasnt trying to shake neos hand, he had the intenion of killing him because he had a knife in his other hand! duh! :newbie

[Vibecrewangel]

Thanks FS. I haven't seen anything other than the movies, and Reloaded only once. ;) I've heard so many rumors about the game giving hints to the third movie I figured I'd bring it up and see if anyone had some additional info.

I'll have to see Reloaded again to get a better idea of the handshake scene. Tho I do know they shook hands. I think Neo even looked at his own hand sort of strangely right after. But I could be mistaken.

[FS]

For those who've already played Enter the Matrix or those who don't intend to, I've written a transcript of some of the cut-scenes in the game.

Click here to read (http://www.fragile-minds.com/fatsatan/enter_the_matrix_transcript.html)

This is not a transcript for the entire game; only conversations and scenes that yield new information or more to think about when discussing whether or not Zion is real.

When I actually sat down to type all of it down, I realized there's a lot more thought-provoking stuff on the story than I initially thought. Especially in the final conversations with the Oracle. Notice how she speaks of "our world and yours", possibly referring to the world of the programs (Matrix) and the real world (Zion)? I'm switching back to the theory that Zion is real and they're going to mix technology and spirituality to explain why Neo could use his powers in the real world, anyway. Other things I find interesting is the child of two programs that the Oracle speaks of, the "shadow" (which, considering that it's followed directly by the scene of Smith copying himself into Bane, I assume refers to him), and especially that Neo has been separated from mind and body. Perhaps this means that his body is in the real world while his mind is stuck in the Matrix.

[snake]

[color=yellow]I'm switching back to the theory that Zion is real and they're going to mix technology and spirituality to explain why Neo could use his powers in the real world.


After her conversation with Neo, the Oracle tells him "if it is any conselation kid, you have made a believer of me" this kind of underscores the spiritual aspect FS is talking about.

[FeuerAffe]

Kind of off subject...but I saw on the news the other day that an albino group is upset about the twins in the movie...because albinos are always shown as villains. wah.

[snake]

Becouse albinos are freaky and cool.........in the movies at least.

firemonkey

[CrakhedCharlie]

WORST MOVIE EVER!!!

This movie made Gangs of New York look like a fucking mind-blowing blockbuster. Too much time spent on special effects and not on the plot. I've seen home movies with better story lines. Keanu Reeves should stick to playing Ted "Theodore" Logan. Although from what I have seen in interviews and such it didn't seem much like acting.
A lot of respect was lost for Mr. Fishburne. He was a better "Furious" "Ike" than the futuristic, prophetic Morpheus. Don't be surprised if he loses some jobs over this movie.
Carrie-Ann Moss' character, Trinity, would have been better off being played by Randy Moss.
I don't even know what the hell Jada Pinkett-Smith was doing in that movie.
Let's get off the Jesus references in this movie. It's been done too many times before. They should just send the 3rd movie straight to DVD. Then I can buy it and burn it!

[Rongi]

THANK YOU FOR THAT WOUNDERFUL AND INSITEFUL REVIEW OF YOURS. IT'S SO TRUE AND STUFF. NOW YOU CAN LEAVE BECAUSE YOU HAVE PROVEN YOURSELF TO BE A GOD AMONG MEN AND EVERYONE IS GOING TO FEEL INFERIOR TO YOU.

[CrakhedCharlie]

I am just sick of people talking about this horseshit movie. I was just venting a little frustration. And besides I AM A GOD AMONG MEN!!!!

[CrakhedCharlie]

BOW DOWN TO THE GOD OF ALL CRAKHEDS!!!

GET ON YOUR KNEES, YOU MAGGOTS!!!

[wreckreation]

:lol @review
>: @ matrix

[Spectre X]

CrackhedCharlie, you have just proven yourself to be THE stupidest man that this planet has EVER spawned.


go back into your daddy's bed.

[Anonymous]

OHHHHHH! OHHHHHH! WHAT NOW, HUH?!?!!!!

[James]

Matrix Reloaded has NOTHING on this baby. (http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=1466)

[Vibecrewangel]

Just saw it for the second time. WAY better this time around.

Proto, this one you will get a kick out of......
In the architect scene it is clearly the same screens used in the first movie when Neo is first captured by the agents and is sitting in the room being questioned. The same filming technique is being used in Reloaded, but now it makes sense. All the repeating images of neo are him at that moment. Not previous ones. Each of the actions and reactions on the screen are his potential actions at that moment. (I think someone brought this up before...mentioning that the FUCK YOU seemed to be the only possible action at that time) During the scene whenever there are possibilities on the screens you are pulled through the one screen that is the choice Neo made at that moment and then you are back to the repeating screens.

I also came up with a theory on Neo and Smith. Neo was supposed to be The One. The one was both the begining and the end. The singular and the infinite. But now, after he changed Smith in the first movie by entering his program, he is the singular and Smith is the infinite.

Additionally, there was something I caught I am still pondering. When they first head to the resteraunt to try and get the keymaker there is a 101 above the doorway behind them. In the next scene they are on highway 101. I thought this was odd so I started looking for more 101 references. When Neo goes to the architect I thought that was a symbolic 101 moment. The two doors and the room being the numbers. During the scene where he is healing Trinity, they show her vitals screen and the number for her blood pressure is 110. This lead me to think that if he had chosen the other door, the next number to be seen would have been 011. In the final scene when both Neo and Bane are unconscious the pan across Neo over the floor that is tiled to look like a zero and over to Bane.

I also think that evey time they show a clock it is showing just before 12 which is just before the time Neo enters the source.

Anyhoo, I'm rambling and it's 2am. g'night.

[Ninjavenom]

Additionally, there was something I caught I am still pondering. When they first head to the resteraunt to try and get the keymaker there is a 101 above the doorway behind them. In the next scene they are on highway 101. I thought this was odd so I started looking for more 101 references. When Neo goes to the architect I thought that was a symbolic 101 moment. The two doors and the room being the numbers. During the scene where he is healing Trinity, they show her vitals screen and the number for her blood pressure is 110. This lead me to think that if he had chosen the other door, the next number to be seen would have been 011. In the final scene when both Neo and Bane are unconscious the pan across Neo over the floor that is tiled to look like a zero and over to Bane.


...ooooohhh.. :o

[Alxcipher]

Seeing as time/space etc are all part of the construct then they are all changeable. Hence Neo's ability to transcend/break certain rules. If this is also true about the real world he may be able to transcend the matrix with all the same power.