Powell's Case

[Anonymous]

OK who watched? What are your opinions.
I do not want war, but I think that he did a really good job with his presentation, and think he (whether or not the information is true) was convincing, made the case, and I am interested to see other countries reactions to it.
I wish he was our president instead of Bush. The thing I like about him is that unlike "Fuck The Rest Of You We Are America Bush", Powell really tries not to piss other nations off.

[Helm]

I don't know, it sounded like more bullshit to me. The war seems predetermined, anything people like him have to say to make it 'feel alright' come off as fake and insulting. Not convinced, not that I was eager in the first place.

[mburbank]

Didn't watch, but just finsihed reading the transcript.

First, I want to be clear, I don't think this is a conspiracy. I do think a lot of the evidence is trumped up and needs to be examined. I am partuclarly confused by this claim in particular.

"Presented declassified satellite pictures that he said were 15 munitions bunkers. Powell said four of them had active chemical munitions inside. "
-reuters

This would indeed have been irefutable evidence had it been given to the inspectors. Revealing it on live television seems an almost deliberate step to insure the claim cannot be verified. If we could have had them red handed, why didn't we?

The evidence from 'sources' is highly questionable. Remember, 'sources' like this, ie. people with a political agenda of their own, are what lead us to bomb a wedding party in Afghanistan.

Naldo, to you in particular; I'm not defending Iraq. In fact I think they almost certainly are hiding chemical weapons, maybe bio weapons, and almost certainly not a nuclear program. It's also true they are not cooperating.

But our investment in making this war happen boggles the mind. We still haven't got Afghanistan under control, we barely have Kabul anyhwere even near stable, we don't lknow where Osama bin Laden is, Al Quaeda is very much active and in the meantime North Korea is ramping up the odds every day and we're too focused on Iraq to deal with them. Our adminsitration insists it isn't a 'crisis'. North Korea admits to posessing arms we only speculate iraq has, is aiming them at our allies, and is going just about nuts that we don't seem to take them seriously.

Economically, things are VERY bleak and that's before you factor ion the cost of a ONE FRONT war.

The question is not so much if I believe Powell or Biden or Bush or whomever, the question is, if we give TOTAL benefit of the doubt and trust this evidence WITHOUT QUESTION, why is this situation our #1 world priority? This War is something the adminsitration has craved since day one. This war, which I think is inevitable, will turn us historically from defenders to conquerers and set forever as precident that the USA will topple other nations when they see fit. THAT is what makes us frightening and dangerous to a world already frightened of us. You can argue that the Roman Empire did lot of good on the whole. It didn't keep it's occupied nations from hating it, it didn't stop power of that kind utterly corrupting it and in the end Visigoths and Vandals toppled it.

Our current foreign policy doctrine is to work toward controlling the world. That is a very bad thing to even want, let alone try for.

[Helm]

This War is something the adminsitration has craved since day one. This war, which I think is inevitable, will turn us historically from defenders to conquerers

This has already happened two fiascos ago, in Serbia.

[Protoclown]

I want details on our bombing of the wedding party in Afghanistan. I vaguely recall hearing about that, but I never looked into it to find out more.

[Helm]

You also bombed some hospitals, a train and a number of dogs.

[Protoclown]

The HELL I did!! I don't even OWN any bombs!!



ASSHOLE >: ;)

[ranxer]

hell yea burbank.. but ya just scratched the surface of why we shouldnt attack.
there's no way this war is worth the risks
without even listening it's a given that powell is selling massively propagandist bullcrap.. i heard him demonizing saddam in a manner that goes beyond the presentation of facts. Saddam may be a bad guy but he is NOT worth collateral damage on the Iraqi people, or our soldiers..

whats the stats now for gulf war syndrome?
.. i hear its 50% effected, 1 in five dead.. many birth defects and other problems with gulf war vets are still being denied by our government. and thats on OUR side! checkout
http://thunderbay.indymedia.org/uploads/rokke.28.ram

this attempt at war with iraq goes beyond saddam, beyond a war on terrorism, its about oil and power.. we dont even need the oil though.. we have enough supplies from our present sources, its about control of the supplies for the rest of the world, ie power.

[Anonymous]

I do not think Powell is a bad guy (well not in the Bush-bad guy way. He was sent there to do a job, sell the war to other countries, all I was saying was that I thought he (as the iraqis are now saying) "put on a good show".
I did not see all the responses, but I did catch Germanys (who did make one good point, the rest was kinda uneventful) and then the response from the iraq ambassador and the conference after.
I also think that Iraq did a great job rebuttling Powell's presentation. I do think they are lying about not having certain weapons, but they are right in saying his presentation was the wrong way to bring forth "evidence" and really is in violation. He should have presented it to the proper people for them to verify or discredit. And that any "evidence" is supposed to be completely and in it's entirey given forth and not in a "our sources" elusive kind of manner. That doing that is also a violation. I also was laughing at the Iraq ambassador quoting the nytimes article about how the cia said there was no conclusive link between al queda and iraq, but that Powell presented it as fact.

I wonder how much of this Powell is in agreement with or just doing what he is told.

Anyway, we all know we are going to war, it was a given and have been a given since the start.

As for the other countries of the "axis of evil" well the Bush-man said we can fight a billion jillion wars at the same time if we need to!!!! My god this is america people we are invincible don't you know that.

We all know the economy sucks it the big time right now, just wait till this war starts up, and watch it get worse. This whole thing is watching a disaster in slow motion.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I honestly haven't had a chance to read the transcript OR watch a replay of the thing, so I can't really speak yet....

[FS]

I think presenting new evidence (figmented or not) on television could've been an attempt at shifting the precarious balance between the public that supports the war and the public that doesn't. "Look! There's chemical weapons here! On this picture!"

Powell made some strong points, but since the hour's growing late I can't help but put question marks behind every claim he makes. Still, I wonder if this will tip the scales far enough to make the war on Iraq "acceptable".

And if you ask me, they could've scrambled the officer names on those recorded phonecalls. I mean, "Captain Ibrahim" is royally fucked right about now.

[george]

it was good enough for me to think that we have enough to go to war with.

but not enough for me to feel good about it.

[sadie]

my sentiments exactly, george. :(

[BombsBurstingInAir]

Some people are really hopeless. If you can't see the IMINATE threat Iraq poses, you need to read up on your history and lay off the hatred of Republicans. Learn about human nature and the like, OK?

Support our president and government in this time of uncertainty. Quit kissing Saddam's ass you pinko bastards!!!!

[mburbank]

Your a boring character.

Or maybe you're real and your opinion and writting style are just so exactly like others whoi are already here as to make no difference whatever.

At least the lefties here differ to one degree or another. What makes your opinion your own, what defines it against anybody elses, and WHERE in my writting did you see 'ass kissing'? And anybody who thinks of life and death issues on an international scale in terms of ass kissing or ass kicking is an idiot.

[george]

how i wish we could have preemptively struck HIM >:

[BombsBurstingInAir]

Get over it.

[ItalianStereotype]

YAY RANXER POSTED WITHOUT COMING ACROSS AS A COMPLETELY NUTTY LIBERAL ZEALOT........sort of.

[BombsBurstingInAir]

What he said.

[Protoclown]

Some people are really hopeless. If you can't see the IMINATE threat Iraq poses, you need to read up on your history and lay off the hatred of Republicans.

Some people are so hopeless that they don't even know how to spell "imminent" correctly. So why should we listen to such a person who doesn't even display a fifth grade education?

[BombsBurstingInAir]

I'm just trying to fit in :(

[Protoclown]

Yes, and you've managed to fit into the "narrow-minded republican mocker" mold quite nicely.

[BombsBurstingInAir]

Oh, I consider myself a Centrist mocker. Thanks.

[Protoclown]

I consider you an idiot.

[BombsBurstingInAir]

To each his own, but I still like you no matter how much you hate me :wank

[Protoclown]

Why would I hate you? I don't even know you.

[mburbank]

Oh but you do know him proto. He's a mysterious mocker who's been here before and is now using a new name. It's so exciting. I'm sure it's going to make us treat him more seriously than we did the last time he was here becuase I'm guessing he was a useless fuck then, but now he's mysterious useless fuck. Wow. Thank god this guy came along to breathe a little life into this board with his mysteriously useless fuckishness.

[BombsBurstingInAir]

LOL. Max.

[mburbank]

see. see the mysteriousness. Aren't you intrigued. It's intruiging that's for sure. it totally mitigtes the fact that he's a sack of crap. no getting round it. intriguiness is sure cure for being a dope.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Ok, maybe some others can bring me up to speed here, but as far as I can tell what we have here is:

A. a "link" between Iraq and Al Qaeida which is really a guy who works for an organization which is financed from our ally, Qatar. This organization, what is it, Al-Islam(?), is based out of Northern Iraq, which might as well be called Kurdistan, yet this guy is "clearly" linked to Saddam.

B. We have a dossier cited by Powell that supposedly explains "current" intelligence information, but was really just plagarized by the British from some scholarly publication.

C. We have satellite pictures of...?....something??

Help me out here. :/

[sadie]

ooh. does the covert one like to eat mustard on his biscuits??

[KevinTheOmnivore]

:/

[sadie]

sorry, kevin. i was engrossed in the mystery. :P

apparently, we have satellite pictures of chemical and biological facilities in iraq. oh, and there are the intercepts of conversations in arabic containing things like nerve agents.

[FS]

[original conversation]

Guy #1: Hello?

Guy#2: Wazzzaaaap.

Guy #1: Ha ha ha.

Guy #2: I know.

Guy #1: These fucking goddamn weapon inspectors. They're giving me a headache.

Guy #2: Really? I've got some aspirine here if you'd like.

Guy #1: Great! I bet that would calm my nerves. I'm coming over.

Guy #2: Catch you on the flip syeeeeed.


[Translated conversation]

Guy #1: Hello?

Guy #2: Hello.

Guy #1: Hello?

Guy #2: Hello.

Guy #1: Hello?

Guy #2: Who is this?

Guy #1: Hello? This is me.

Guy #2: OK.

Guy #1: Hello?

Guy #2: What do you want?

Guy #1: The weapon inspectors are here, but I hid the anthrax tank under my desk.

Guy #2: Yes.

Guy #1: Hello?

Guy #2: Did you get rid of the nerve agents?

Guy #1: Yes, they are also hidden under my desk.

Guy #2: Excellent.

Guy #1: Hello?

[sadie]

i thought one of them was gonna say "orange you glad i didn't say banana." it's renee's fault. :P

[BombsBurstingInAir]

If you are open to the idea of war, the Sec's comments will push you closer to agreeing with war.

If you are opposed to it, his comments will only cause you to question the validity of the evidence.

Nothing more.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

That's a Carl Childers kind of answer. >:

[BombsBurstingInAir]

You mean that answer sucks????

[sadie]

kevin's thinking the same thing i'm thinking. oohlala.