Looks like Max isn't the ONLY Socialist in America....

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/5898806.htm

Posted on Mon, May. 19, 2003

Poll finds most Americans want smaller tax cut, more aid to states

BY CARRIE STURROCK
Knight Ridder Newspapers

WALNUT CREEK, Calif. - (KRT) - A majority of Americans would prefer a smaller federal tax cut if it meant more aid to the states to maintain public schools and universities, according to a survey by independent researchers at the University of California at Berkeley and Stanford University.

The survey is the first to gauge support for President Bush's proposed $550 billion tax cut in light of shrinking education budgets.

"I think it highlights the fact that given tough economic times, public education is still a very high priority relative to federal tax cuts," said Emlei Kuboyama, an associate director at Policy Analysis for California Education (PACE), a research center based at Cal and Stanford. "People are very concerned about the state impact."

Survey respondents were asked:

"Which would you prefer, the full $550 billion tax cut that President Bush is proposing to stimulate the economy, or a smaller federal tax cut and increased federal aid to states to help maintain funding for public schools?"

Of those surveyed, 67 percent preferred a smaller tax cut, and more federal aid to the states to shore up funding for public schools, while 25 percent wanted the $550 billion tax cut.

As for higher education, 64 percent preferred a smaller tax cut and more money for state universities while 28 percent preferred the president's tax cut.

University researchers commissioned Peter D. Hart Research Associates of Washington, D.C., to survey 1,003 randomly selected adults between May 8 and 13. The margin of error is plus or minus 3 percentage points.

While it's unclear what will happen with Bush's proposal, observers are predicting he will secure one of the largest tax cuts in history. Federal lawmakers are working to reconcile two versions: the House bill would cut taxes by $550 billion, the Senate's by $350 billion.

The Senate bill also includes $20 billion in aid for struggling cities and states. Both plans call for a reduction on the dividends tax. The PACE researchers noted that states could lose up to $8 billion from a dividends tax cut.

The PACE survey found that a majority of the nation's wealthiest people supported a smaller federal tax cut if it meant more aid to states for public schools. Fifty-nine percent of survey respondents who earn more than $75,000 annually preferred the smaller cut, while 33 percent preferred the full Bush proposal.

"It's telling that even the people who would presumably benefit the most from these tax cut proposals … would have more federal aid go to the states for public education," Kuboyama said.

Those in the study's lowest income bracket overwhelmingly supported a smaller tax cut - 79 percent versus 15 percent.

When it came to a smaller tax cut in return for more aid to help states avoid cutting services generally or raising taxes, a gender gap emerged. Sixty-eight percent of women favored a small tax cut compared with 58 percent of men.

The survey researchers pointed out that "the nation's grass-roots Republicans are statistically tied on the issue." Of Republicans surveyed, 46 percent preferred the larger tax cut, compared with 43 percent who wanted more aid to the states. Democrats came down 11 percent to 82 percent on that question.

---

© 2003, Contra Costa Times (Walnut Creek, Calif.).

[VinceZeb]

The question is loaded to begin with. The question implies that if there is a tax cut, all the public schools will lose all their funding. The question is slanted and biased.

They should ask this question:

"If we get the tax cut, and you had to choose a program to not give money to, which one would you pick?" Then you give a bunch of choices. If people were intelligent enough to know WHERE THEIR FREAKING MONEY GOES, they would answer differently.

[mburbank]

So for instance, if it turned out most people were against the developement and testing a 'low yield' nuclear weapons and the billions of dollars that will be spent on it, that would make som sort of difference?

[VinceZeb]

Do you honestly think people (besides people like you) would be against trying to improve our nation's defense?

A good portion of America is ignorant to how the country works. Once we improve our failing school system, then the more educated America can arise, vote, and be able to lead this country in a greater direction.

[sspadowsky]

You are a shining example of our failing school systems.
________
C216 (http://www.mercedes-wiki.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_C216)

[AChimp]

What's the point of continuing to "improve" your national defenses? The U.S. could already fight simultaneous wars in several parts of the world and most likely win.

Vince, the question that you propose is even more "loaded" than the one that was posed. You know why? Because it forces a person to presume that they already received the tax cut, whereas the actual survey suggests two things and asks for a preference: a tax cut or funding for schools.

[mburbank]

Vinth; no I suppose not. I just think most people wouldn't think spending bucketloads of tax money on developing more useable nuclear weapons an improvement. Most people don't think nuclear weappons should be used at all.

You are ignorant 'to how' the language works. Whatever education you had doesn't show any evidence of having taken. And yet somehow you 'arise' and vote.

Ignorant 'to how'. Jesus Christ eating Jimminy Cricket, Vinth. You need to shut up about education or learn to write an English sentence.

[VinceZeb]

This is a message board, not an English classroom. I'll talk how I dam well please.

Ss, please explain, without metioning my language usage, how I am a shining example of failing schools?

[Bennett]

Ss, please explain, without metioning my language usage, how I am a shining example of failing schools?

Well, since I can't comment on you inability to use the ENGLISH language, I would say your inability to recognize the ENGLISH language as one of the key aspects of our educational system makes you a shining example.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

The question is loaded to begin with. The question implies that if there is a tax cut, all the public schools will lose all their funding. The question is slanted and biased.

They should ask this question:

"If we get the tax cut, and you had to choose a program to not give money to, which one would you pick?" Then you give a bunch of choices. If people were intelligent enough to know WHERE THEIR FREAKING MONEY GOES, they would answer differently.

Vince, my state, New York, is going through one of the worst economic crisises it has ever seen. Thankfully, due to a bi-partisan effort by both of our legislative houses against the governor, there will be no cuts to public school education (to my knowledge). There will however be a $950 tuition increase for SUNY students, our state college system.

A budget is a budget, and education is always a top issue for a state. To assume that the states don't, or wouldn't use this money that way is asinine. But we already know this about you, don't we?

Please, tell us how government "works," would you?

[VinceZeb]

Your state also has one of the highest tax rates in the nation and accepts the most freeloading scum in the entire country.

You also voted Miss Clinton into office there.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Doesn't answer the question.

EDIT:

and accepts the most freeloading scum in the entire country.

You'll have to clarify yourself here, such broad, ignorant, and prejudice remarks are very much unlike you, and I'm not sure what you mean.

Would you mean those in NYS who are receiving financial assistance? Do you realize that 1 in 4 children in NYS classify as living in poverty? Do you realize that children comprise the largest segment of the hungry population in NYS?

You make me sick. To paraphrase Charles Dickens, just one of those children are more worthy in the eyes of God than hundreds of people like yourself. You spout stereotypes and naive misconceptions, you call faces you've never seen scum, when it's you who are the scum. You tell everyone on this board that they won't be missed when they're dead, but WHO will care about the end of a vulgar, rotten, and heartless little insect such as yourself when you finally gasp your last breath??

I don't care what your opinions are on welfare, fod stamps, social programs, etc. But think before you speak, and for God's sake, know what you're talking about before you open your fat mouth.

Have you ever seen someone without a home, Vince? Have you ever seen a child without a home, Vince? I have, and it's the most heartbreaking and sobering thing you can ever witness. To realize that while you get to go home under a room to a warm bed, those people you just gave some soup or a sandwich have NOTHING. They aren't just the stereotypical lazy minority that your racist little brain conjures up, they are the young, the old, children, women, veterans, mothers, and fathers.

You are trash.

[sspadowsky]

You can't really call it "use" of the language. "Brutal rape and mutilation" is a more apt description.
________
CHEAP SOFTAIR TANFOGLIO ROUND AIRSOFT MAGAZINES (http://airsoft-shop.info/p/softair-tanfoglio-round-airsoft-magazines/)

[Protoclown]

Bennett made me :lol

[VinceZeb]

Doesn't answer the question.

EDIT:

and accepts the most freeloading scum in the entire country.

You'll have to clarify yourself here, such broad, ignorant, and prejudice remarks are very much unlike you, and I'm not sure what you mean.

Would you mean those in NYS who are receiving financial assistance? Do you realize that 1 in 4 children in NYS classify as living in poverty? Do you realize that children comprise the largest segment of the hungry population in NYS?

You make me sick. To paraphrase Charles Dickens, just one of those children are more worthy in the eyes of God than hundreds of people like yourself. You spout stereotypes and naive misconceptions, you call faces you've never seen scum, when it's you who are the scum. You tell everyone on this board that they won't be missed when they're dead, but WHO will care about the end of a vulgar, rotten, and heartless little insect such as yourself when you finally gasp your last breath??

I don't care what your opinions are on welfare, fod stamps, social programs, etc. But think before you speak, and for God's sake, know what you're talking about before you open your fat mouth.

Have you ever seen someone without a home, Vince? Have you ever seen a child without a home, Vince? I have, and it's the most heartbreaking and sobering thing you can ever witness. To realize that while you get to go home under a room to a warm bed, those people you just gave some soup or a sandwich have NOTHING. They aren't just the stereotypical lazy minority that your racist little brain conjures up, they are the young, the old, children, women, veterans, mothers, and fathers.

You are trash.


Take your panties out of your coochie, Kevin. Now, turn on that muscle mass that resides in your head. Good. Now follow me....

Kevin, your stats mean shit. Most of the children that are "living in poverty" are children of immigrants or people who could not keep their fucking legs shut. Now, show me in the United States Constitution where I am supposed to take care of leeches and the mistakes of ignorant, lazy people. You try to act like everyone who is "below poverty" is the average hard working Joe Six-Pack who has fallen on hard times when in fact the exact opposite is true.

Please show me where I made any indication of the race/creed/ethnic background of the "freeloading scum". Your blatant erroneous use of the word “racist” shows that you are more suited to beating the Monolith with a leg bone. If I were racist, that would mean that I believe in the inherent genetic superiority of my race above another. Where have I made that statement, Kevin? Oh wait, I did not. Freeloading scum in our country are of all shapes, sizes and colors. They refuse to work, give piss poor excuses of why they shouldn’t, or are too busy getting drunk or high to do anything productive. A lot of people move to this country to mooch off of it. Ask anyone that lives in Maine about the problems they are having. Just hop over to Newsfilter.org’s message board and ask. There are many people that will put you in the Japanese sailor suit and parade you around town like a common tramp.

I would really hate for you to be misinformed, by my mouth is not fat. My opinions are for the most part correct and based on the reality that you, I and everyone else has to live in. I am sorry that you let your right-side take over when you have to deal with facts and figures. Facts and figures don’t have emotion behind them, Kevin. They are just the cold hard reality you seem to want to ignore.

“Have you ever seen someone without a home, Vince? Have you ever seen a child without a home, Vince? I have, and it's the most heartbreaking and sobering thing you can ever witness.” You sound like a Springsteen album. I have been an asshair away from being homeless. My family was not rich by any means of the imagination. My mom was a LPN/Physical Therapy Assistant and my dad was just a grocery clerk. But I was raised to have the brains to know that something so big to give you everything you need is also big enough to take it all away. That is what you want the government to be. The government is not a god, Kevin. Learn to deal with that.

You are economically stupid, Kevin. You want income redistribution. You are one of the easily led morons that only vote against anything a Republican puts up because you do not like Bush. Why should I have my money FORCEFULLY taken away from me to pay for someone else’s mistakes or misfortunes. As a Christian, I would love to help them out, and I do. But as an American, I am not required to, and damnit, I am sick of some dumbass politician telling the people of America that are too freaking stupid to understand basic economics that tax cuts are for the rich. Answer this, Kevin, when the fuck should I be considered rich?

Now, why don’t you stop trying to make me look stupid (which is failing) and give me some real answers to the problems I have stated. I have my nice warm bed because I have EARNED it. I WORK hard. I SAVE money. I am SMART. I feel sorry for every homeless and poor child in my country, but ya know, it ain’t the government’s job to fix it. Why don’t you blame the parents for being poor and uneducated and not able to produce something for society instead of me. Why don’t you blame the parents for being brood mares and sucking the life from my purse strings with the children that they cannot take care of instead of me. I didn’t hump a woman to produce all these children. The “baby’s daddy” did. Is it my responsibility as an American citizen to take care of them? NO. Is it the responsibility of the people that created them to take care of them? YES.


Suck on this, beyotch.

[mburbank]

Jesus Wept.

[Jeanette X]

"Kevin, your stats mean shit. Most of the children that are "living in poverty" are children of immigrants or people who could not keep their fucking legs shut. Now, show me in the United States Constitution where I am supposed to take care of leeches and the mistakes of ignorant, lazy people. You try to act like everyone who is "below poverty" is the average hard working Joe Six-Pack who has fallen on hard times when in fact the exact opposite is true."

Even if we asssume the parents are at fault for their own situation, why the hell should the children suffer for it?
Furthermore, why do you believe that everyone who lives at poverty level neccesarily is poor because they are lazy/ignorant? Do you have some sources to back this up?

I would really hate for you to be misinformed, by my mouth is not fat. My opinions are for the most partcorrect and based on the reality that you, I and everyone else has to live in. I am sorry that you let your right-side take over when you have to deal with facts and figures. Facts and figures don’t have emotion behind them, Kevin. They are just the cold hard reality you seem to want to ignore.

"But I was raised to have the brains to know that something so big to give you everything you need is also big enough to take it all away. That is what you want the government to be. The government is not a god, Kevin. Learn to deal with that."

Kev never claimed that he wanted the government to give him "everything he needs". Your problem is that you see things in black and white, you assume that Kevin wants a government which is completely socialistic, when perhaps he only wants a government that is slightly more liberal than it is now.

"You are economically stupid, Kevin. You want income redistribution."
Point out where Kevin said that too.

"You are one of the easily led morons that only vote against anything a Republican puts up because you do not like Bush. Why should I have my money FORCEFULLY taken away from me to pay for someone else’s mistakes or misfortunes."
Why should I have mine forcefully taken from me to fund a war I didn't want or believe in?

"Is it my responsibility as an American citizen to take care of them? NO. Is it the responsibility of the people that created them to take care of them? YES."

Therefore, if we have a child that is being abused, the government should not intervene and take it out of an abusive situation?

"My opinions are for the most part correct and based on the reality that you, I and everyone else has to live in. I am sorry that you let your right-side take over when you have to deal with facts and figures. "

You have yet to put up facts and figures supporting your arguement.

[The_Rorschach]

" Kevin, your stats mean shit. Most of the children that are "living in poverty" are children of immigrants or people who could not keep their fucking legs shut."

"Please show me where I made any indication of the race/creed/ethnic background of the "freeloading scum"."

" Kevin, your stats mean shit. Most of the children that are "living in poverty" are children of immigrants or people who could not keep their fucking legs shut."

"Please show me where I made any indication of the race/creed/ethnic background of the "freeloading scum"."

" Kevin, your stats mean shit. Most of the children that are "living in poverty" are children of immigrants or people who could not keep their fucking legs shut."

"Please show me where I made any indication of the race/creed/ethnic background of the "freeloading scum"."

" Kevin, your stats mean shit. Most of the children that are "living in poverty" are children of immigrants or people who could not keep their fucking legs shut."

"Please show me where I made any indication of the race/creed/ethnic background of the "freeloading scum"."

" Kevin, your stats mean shit. Most of the children that are "living in poverty" are children of immigrants or people who could not keep their fucking legs shut."

"Please show me where I made any indication of the race/creed/ethnic background of the "freeloading scum"."

" Kevin, your stats mean shit. Most of the children that are "living in poverty" are children of immigrants or people who could not keep their fucking legs shut."

"Please show me where I made any indication of the race/creed/ethnic background of the "freeloading scum"."

" Kevin, your stats mean shit. Most of the children that are "living in poverty" are children of immigrants or people who could not keep their fucking legs shut."

"Please show me where I made any indication of the race/creed/ethnic background of the "freeloading scum"."

[AChimp]

Them ****** babies just keep popping out, don't they, Vince. Say, isn't it Catholics who don't use contraception?

[Miss Modular]

:lol

I think Ror deserves a round of applause.

[mburbank]

Go easy. Vinth used the word "Immigrant" but what he meant was poor people. And he didn't say anything about what ethnic backgorund the people spreading their legs were. Besides, he has a very rigid deffinition of what the word Racist means that he got directly from Boortz. I think, in light of the fact it's the onloy word Vinth uses that he has a definition for, we ought to honor it. Just call him a biggot instead.

"This is a message board, not an English classroom. I'll talk how I dam well please."
-Vinth

Doesn't that kind of presuppose you are capable of 'talking' any other way? I kind of doubt it. You've yet to show any evidence that you can 'speak' any other way, here, or on Newsfilter or on your own website. I'm fairly convinced it's all you're capable of.

[AChimp]

Maybe Vince is one of lunatic fringe activists. You know, by telling us that we're all "government educated morons," he's really saying that he's against literacy.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Kevin, your stats mean shit. Most of the children that are "living in poverty" are children of immigrants or people who could not keep their fucking legs shut.

Do you have numbers or data on this? If my numbers mean nothing, which can be cited and backed up by the Hunger Action Network of NY, where are your numbers?


Now, show me in the United States Constitution where I am supposed to take care of leeches and the mistakes of ignorant, lazy people. You try to act like everyone who is "below poverty" is the average hard working Joe Six-Pack who has fallen on hard times when in fact the exact opposite is true.

Again, numbers. Where are they? 1 in 3 families who visit a food pantry in new york state have at least one member who works, and overall, 40% of all poor people over the age of 14 work (that includes all of those "immigrants" ie. Mexicans and other minorities that you hate, scum).

Please show me where I made any indication of the race/creed/ethnic background of the "freeloading scum".

I think Rorschach covered this one.

Your blatant erroneous use of the word “racist” shows that you are more suited to beating the Monolith with a leg bone. If I were racist, that would mean that I believe in the inherent genetic superiority of my race above another. Where have I made that statement, Kevin? Oh wait, I did not. Freeloading scum in our country are of all shapes, sizes and colors.

Again, I defer to Mr. Rorschach.

They refuse to work, give piss poor excuses of why they shouldn’t, or are too busy getting drunk or high to do anything productive. A lot of people move to this country to mooch off of it.

Like who? I know that were it not for the Mexican immigrants in this country who work for virtually nothing to pick our fruit, wash our dishes, clean our floors and our toilets, we'd be in big trouble. Lazy hypocrites like yourself might not like cleaning up the mens room at a diner or motel. So who are these "people"?


Ask anyone that lives in Maine about the problems they are having. Just hop over to Newsfilter.org’s message board and ask. There are many people that will put you in the Japanese sailor suit and parade you around town like a common tramp.

Maybe we could all bitch about those "immigrants" who are mooching off the system, at your expense, of course. We could guise our words carefully with terms like "immigrants" and "mooches" just to play it safe, and just to carefully cover up what it is we're getting at.

BTW, judging the moral character of the folks over at newsfilter.org, I think I'll stick to I-Mockery, and avoid the liars, but thanks.

My opinions are for the most part correct and based on the reality that you, I and everyone else has to live in. I am sorry that you let your right-side take over when you have to deal with facts and figures. Facts and figures don’t have emotion behind them, Kevin. They are just the cold hard reality you seem to want to ignore.

And yet you neglect to provide any of them.....

“Have you ever seen someone without a home, Vince? Have you ever seen a child without a home, Vince? I have, and it's the most heartbreaking and sobering thing you can ever witness.” You sound like a Springsteen album. I have been an asshair away from being homeless. My family was not rich by any means of the imagination. My mom was a LPN/Physical Therapy Assistant and my dad was just a grocery clerk.

:boohoo

My mother is likewise an LPN, and although she is working herself into the grave, and makes very little, we still lived a relatively good life. My father works in a tile factory. We didn't have a lot, but it isn't even comparable to the situation many Americans are living in, so spare me the middle-class sob stories.


But I was raised to have the brains to know that something so big to give you everything you need is also big enough to take it all away. That is what you want the government to be. The government is not a god, Kevin. Learn to deal with that.

Yet I'm sure you applaud huge corporate subsidies, tax loopholes, corporate welfare, and everything else you denounce when it comes to these dark skinned mexi-, oops, I'm mean "immigrants" you so detest.

You are economically stupid, Kevin. You want income redistribution. You are one of the easily led morons that only vote against anything a Republican puts up because you do not like Bush. Why should I have my money FORCEFULLY taken away from me to pay for someone else’s mistakes or misfortunes. As a Christian, I would love to help them out, and I do. But as an American, I am not required to, and damnit, I am sick of some dumbass politician telling the people of America that are too freaking stupid to understand basic economics that tax cuts are for the rich. Answer this, Kevin, when the fuck should I be considered rich?

When a corporate CEO makes 300% more than his lowest employee, who probably breaks his ass every day to put food on the table, then we have problems. I don't agree with superfluous taxation, but I do agree that those with the money should be taxed more, it's right, it's just, and it's what makes things work. Even Adam Smith acknowledged this.

"FORCEFULLY"??? Issomeone coming and holding you up at gun point? You pay your taxes to abide by the law, the law is decided upon by Denmocrats AND Republicans, and this is how the system functions. It sounds to me like you hate America and the way it operates, Vince.

Now, why don’t you stop trying to make me look stupid (which is failing) and give me some real answers to the problems I have stated. I have my nice warm bed because I have EARNED it. I WORK hard. I SAVE money. I am SMART. I feel sorry for every homeless and poor child in my country, but ya know, it ain’t the government’s job to fix it. Why don’t you blame the parents for being poor and uneducated and not able to produce something for society instead of me.

The government is a reflective function OF the people, NOT this autonomous boogy man that intelectual midgets such as yourself try to create. It's the government's job to protect every American's right to life, libertu, and the persuit of happiness. They are failinn at this job, on multiple levels. This IS OUR job, because we ARE the government, so shove your libertarian hog wash.

Why don’t you blame the parents for being brood mares and sucking the life from my purse strings with the children that they cannot take care of instead of me. I didn’t hump a woman to produce all these children. The “baby’s daddy” did. Is it my responsibility as an American citizen to take care of them? NO. Is it the responsibility of the people that created them to take care of them? YES.

Right, right, it comes back to the "welfare queens," which when you really look at the numbers, is a falshood, simply due to the fact that it really doesn't pay off to keep having babies. It doesn't make economic sense, it isn't a reality. Where's all that intelligence of yours now, shit head?


Suck on this, beyotch.

Give me your family's mailing address so I can congratulate them on a job well done.

[VinceZeb]

I have to preface this post by saying that I have masturbated more potential brain cells into my shorts in a month than Kevin will ever possess in his entire lifetime.


See, Kevin and Rorsh, you are trying to act like I am a biggoted idiot. When in fact I have proven time and time again that I am not. That's the funny thing about people of your ilk. When you lose a battle, you pull out your race/class/ethics card and play it.

Show me where I said I hate a certain race/ethnic background of people? Show me where I used the word ****** as a slur? Please, show me these grand facts that you act like you have. You can do cutesy post and act like I am "treading lightly to cover my real agenda" all you want, but anyone with an IQ over 50 (which happens to be the mean IQ of this board sans Vince) can see this and know you are full of feces.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I would like to apologize to Roger, on behalf of all the other Mockers, for the previous waste of board space provided by VinceZeb.

Have an answer to any of the pertinent questions, Buchanan?

[Jeanette X]

Vince, you still haven't addressed anything I wrote.

[The_Rorschach]

ATTN: Vinth.

http://www.raceworx.com/funnypics/jesus%20thanks%204%20info.gif

[Jeanette X]

edit: FUCK! Posted twice again. :(

[Pub Lover]

Show me where I said I hate a certain race/ethnic background of people? Show me where I used the word ****** as a slur?
Yes Vince, you have been very clever by formulating your Double-Speak so well.

Please, show me these grand facts that you act like you have.
As if you ever show us yours.

anyone with an IQ over 50 (which happens to be the mean IQ of this board sans Vince) can see this and know you are full of feces
:lol

[VinceZeb]

Pub, what the fuck are you blabbering about? My "doublespeak" that I am using hide the fact I am racist?

Wow, if you could be any dumber, I would suggest that science harvest your brain after you die to find out how you were able to unconsciously tell your heart to beat. I do not believe that "white" people are genetically superior than anyone else. I do not think any race is beneath or above any other. But I discriminate. I discriminate on the basis of intelligence and interests. Just like everyone else. So before you try to sound intelligent and well informed, just turn off your computer. You can get the same message across that you just did now.

Sorry, Kevin, that you or your boyfriend Ror cannot argue the fact that I never said anything that was racist or bigoted. But then again you are morons so "facts" don't really have a place in your mind.


Jeanette X, no facts I can show you could convince you I am correct, because it is hard to gather real facts on the situation. But talk to any Social Services worker or watch the Discovery channel or TLC when they have specials on drugs or homelessness. You will learn a worldfull. Not everyone who is on these kinds of programs is lazy, but the majority abuse the system.

And if a child is beaten, that is different than if a child isnt being fed because the mother thinks the school (and by proxy the govt) will do it. One is immoral and a direct action by the mother to harm the child, the other is the mother being a lazy shit. And mothers do not sit there and calculate the cost per child or the money per child they would recieve; if they were smart enough to do that in the first place, they would not be having kids to begin with.

[mburbank]

"I do not believe that "white" people are genetically superior than anyone else. I do not think any race is beneath or above any other. "
-Vinth

So when you speak from your vast knowledge of 'immigrants', you mean mostly white folks?

"Jeanette X, no facts I can show you could convince you I am correct, because it is hard to gather real facts on the situation. But talk to any Social Services worker or watch the Discovery channel or TLC when they have specials on drugs or homelessness. You will learn a worldfull. Not everyone who is on these kinds of programs is lazy, but the majority abuse the system. "
-Vinth

Huh. My wife has a Masters in Early intervention. I just went to the B.U. school of Social Work Graduation. One of my best freinds is a drug rehab coounsellor. I know, through them, nearly a hundred social service workers, and not one of them feels the way you do. They all feel the number of people who 'abuse' the sytem is far highly exagerated, wildluy blown out of proportion by folks like you. But you probably have om special deffinition of 'scoial service worker' that you haven't shared, so skip it.

[Bennett]

I have to preface this post by saying that I have masturbated more potential brain cells into my shorts in a month than Kevin will ever possess in his entire lifetime.


You masturbate into your shorts? That's kind of disgusting V...

but on a serious note, if you look at how this thread pans out, it Vince is an example of the type of person I was talking about elsewhere.

[The_Rorschach]

"Pub, what the fuck are you blabbering about? My "doublespeak" that I am using hide the fact I am racist?"

One; Pub doesn't blabber, I don't always agree with his point of view, but never has he posted anything which I didn't find at the very least, thought provoking. He's a hell of alot more knowledgable on any given issue than you could ever aspire to be.

That includes ethnic women, Vinth.

Two; Noone called you a racist. You're the one that keeps bringing that up. Did we trigger some guilty feelings?

"I discriminate on the basis of intelligence and interests."

Being neither intellegent nor interesting, I wonder what you base your judgements upon. The opinions and standards set by others? Knee-jerk reactions? A Magic Eight Ball?

"Sorry, Kevin, that you or your boyfriend Ror cannot argue the fact that I never said anything that was racist or bigoted."

Hey, I have a fun game. Go find where Kevin and I called you a racist, then post here the copied statement! Do it in a day and I'll have a surprise for you. . .PORK RINDS! Thats right, greasy, salty, deep-fried love, I can see your chubby fingers twitching at the thought. HAPPY HUNTING!!!!!

"Jeanette X, no facts I can show you could convince you I am correct, because it is hard to gather real facts on the situation."

So lacking "real facts" you base your ideology upon. . .

A.) Political Mad Libs; Lieberman Home Edition

B.) Guidance form a Ouija Board

C.) Tabloids

[VinceZeb]

Have you ever seen someone without a home, Vince? Have you ever seen a child without a home, Vince? I have, and it's the most heartbreaking and sobering thing you can ever witness. To realize that while you get to go home under a room to a warm bed, those people you just gave some soup or a sandwich have NOTHING. They aren't just the stereotypical lazy minority that your racist little brain conjures up, they are the young, the old, children, women, veterans, mothers, and fathers.

Would you like to know more?

[The_Rorschach]

Sure. Find a quote from me now, one out of two is only half the battle.

Come on. . .Pooooorrrrkkkk rrrrriiiiinnnnddddss. Can't you hear the syren call of saturated fats and carbohydrates? NUMMAY!

[mburbank]

If you want the Pork Rhinds, you need to post your adress.

[Vibecrewangel]

There are people out there who abuse the sytem. There are people who are trapped in it. There are people who get away from it. And there are people who never use it.
Each persons situation is different and to lump them all into one category says more about you then it does about them.

And by the way. There are people who calculate how much another child will bring in on welfare. I'm sorry if the thought that they can do basic accounting goes against your view of the stupid lazy homeless person. But it does happen. Some don't want to work, and some want to put the money away while the baby is young and doesn't cost as much so that they can work later and have a buffer to help them get off the system.

[HitlerWasReich]

The survey is so narrow as to be worthless. "People support more funding for education really?" Who wants to sound like they oppose our nation's children? Of course the survey didn't propose any specific amounts just a broad idea. And who should get more money, elementary, secondary, high schools or colleges? If the taxcut was decreased we all know that the majority of that money would not end up in the education system. So this survey has a broad philosopical idea that would never be implemented. Amercians think education can be solved by throwing money at it when the real solution is for parents to take a more active role in their children's education. Why have Chinese immigrants managed to become so highly educated and placed in society? This isn't a racist statement. Asians make up 2% of the Texas population but 14 % of the University of Texas at Austin's student composition, this is the similar across the nation. Why? Are they superior genetically or is it because Asiatic cultures in general place a greater emphasis on obeying parents, society and getting a good education. More spending isn't the solution greater motivation from parents and students is.
Oh and wtf, your talking about New York right? Mexicans? Everyone knows you have dirty Puerto Ricans. Puerto Rico spends huge amounts on welfare with 60% of Puerto Ricans qualifing for it. obviously Puerto Ricans have a history of using welfare. 1 in 4 children live in poverty in a state with the highest tax rate? I wonder if there is a connection... oh well just raise taxes during a recession that's a great idea. Because you can't cut spending that's just crazy, all the other states should contribute to your relief instead.

[sspadowsky]

Look, Vinnie! You've got a new friend to play with!
________
1982 KAWASAKI KZ750 LTD ENGINE REMOVAL (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Kawasaki_KZ750R)

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Sorry, Kevin, that you or your boyfriend Ror cannot argue the fact that I never said anything that was racist or bigoted. But then again you are morons so "facts" don't really have a place in your mind.

Still waiting on the numbers and data related to how lack of leg closure = higher taxes for you...

You are a racist. I stand by it, I don't back down from it. Of course you don't think you are, and you play it off, like saying "I don't care about their creed, religion, race, blah blah," BUT if those lazy immigrants could keep their legs closed, we'd be in the clear.

Answer Max's question, scum. WHO are you talking about? What country or countries are we discussing here?

EDIT: "HitlerWasReich"??? WTF?? Has to be a character, and I for one blame Protoclown.

[mburbank]

Whoever it is can write full sentences.

[The_Rorschach]

"EDIT: "HitlerWasReich"??? WTF?? Has to be a character, and I for one blame Protoclown."

My money says he's a White Nationalist and entirely serious, if so, you're going to find yourself in an awkward position Kev. ABCDxxxx thinks you hate Jews, and this guy for sure will exploit your leftists leanings. Throw in Ronnie's one liners for flavour and this might become the best forum on the Mock. Too bad Vince isn't quite up to Khakka's standard, that would make this positively all-star.

How do you do it Kev?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Maybe Vince and Hitler should team up.




















:)

[The_Rorschach]

I will only support this idea if they get respective user picts of Hitler and Rommel.

[FS]

"Do you want to suck my dick, bastard?"

[HitlerWasReich]

"they can't keep their legs closed" If he means poor dirty minorities and not all immigrants there are facts to back it up. Hispanics are growing at a faster rate than other minorities and teenage pregnancy is alarmlingly higher in Hispanics than any other etnicity. Black growth rates have declined making hispanics the fastest growing minority but Asians are also growing fast but they start at a low percentage so it isn't getting covered as much. Also everyone loves asians as they are the "model minority".
Blah blah blah a highter percentage of minorites on welfare blah blah the majority are white blah blah blah. Blame stupid parents who can't raise their kids, a phenomenom over represented in the poor (that's why they're poor) with minorites over represented in the poor.

Some of your arguments for welfare are stupid.
"There are people who calculate how much another child will bring in on welfare." so you agree with vince that some people screw the system?
The theory that it costs more to raise a kid than you get from welfare is based on the assumption of GOOD care being provided.

" I'm sorry if the thought that they can do basic accounting goes against your view of the stupid lazy homeless person. "
The thought that they can do basic accounting goes against my view of most Americans. Why do you think credit card debit is such a problem? Those offers you get to refinance your debt exist for a reason.

"and some want to put the money away while the baby is young and doesn't cost as much so that they can work later and have a buffer to help them get off the system."
So I'm supposed to pay for someone to stay home with their child instead of working? They are saving money they did not earn to get a 'buffer'. why would they need a buffer? Couldnt they go on welfare again if they needed it? Why should they get more money on welfare than they need in the first place? They shouldnt have money to save, it's just to help them get by temporarly right?


Rommel is a horrible choice showing your ignorance of history. He was executed by Hitler ( Given a choice between suicide or execution followed by the ruining of Rommel's wife and son) for treason and was involved in the army not the SS. Rommel fought for Germany not Hitler or Hitler's policies. A poor choice for an insult.

[Bennett]

Well considering they're both dead (one suicide, one execution), i think it's the perfect fit.

[Jeanette X]

Jeanette X, no facts I can show you could convince you I am correct, because it is hard to gather real facts on the situation. But talk to any Social Services worker or watch the Discovery channel or TLC when they have specials on drugs or homelessness. You will learn a worldfull. Not everyone who is on these kinds of programs is lazy, but the majority abuse the system.

Anecdotal evidence and case studies aren't enough Vince. And yes, I watch plenty of those specials. Unless you can give me figures from a study, I remain skeptical.

And if a child is beaten, that is different than if a child isnt being fed because the mother thinks the school (and by proxy the govt) will do it.
What about children not being fed just because the parents simply don't care? That appears to be the main reason behind child neglect.
One is immoral and a direct action by the mother to harm the child, the other is the mother being a lazy shit.
It also immoral to neglect your child.

[CaptainBubba]

I don't know if this is "off topic" or not at this point in this little happy hulabaloo of a thread, but heres my opinion on funding for our schools:

Our schools suck (please note that any comment indicating a lack of intelligence on my part in regards to this statement would be self defeating, as genetically I should be quite mentally sufficient, and thus the problem would lie in my schooling, which has primarilly been public till recently).
They suck both because there is no reason for them to actually give a decent education (government monopoly) and because the government in many respects cannot teach many things due to our now overly PC culture.

Giving them MORE money for doing a BAD job will not solve our problem. Funding is not the issue and it has been proven repeatedly in numerous incidents.

I'm assuming you're aware that the above statement is valid, but if you insist I'll do some research for anyone who wants the exact data.

I might say more but I really have to go erase the words landlord, founding father, and snowman from my memory now because they're evil and sexist.

[Jeanette X]

Our schools suck (please note that any comment indicating a lack of intelligence on my part in regards to this statement would be self defeating, as genetically I should be quite mentally sufficient).
They suck both because there is no reason for them to actually give a decent education (government monopoly) and because the government in many respects cannot teach many things due to our now overly PC culture.

What can we not teach because of PCness?

[CaptainBubba]

Alot of things, and the list of forbidden or re-written subjects as it were continues to grow.

Heres a good link to learn more about it.

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/ejournals/ALAN/winter94/CenCONN.html

[Vibecrewangel]

"There are people who calculate how much another child will bring in on welfare." so you agree with vince that some people screw the system?

Here, let remind you what the opening of my post said. Just in case you missed it
There are people out there who abuse the sytem. There are people who are trapped in it. There are people who get away from it. And there are people who never use it.
Each persons situation is different and to lump them all into one category says more about you then it does about them.

See now, getting all huffy served no purpose but to show that you had a kneee jerk reaction to something without actually reading it. The difference is that Vince thinks the "majority" of people on the system screw while I think that some of the people do. Others get screwed by the system. And a few are actually able to use the sytem they way it was meant to be used. Sadly, that is the true minority in the situation.

Next, my little rant about people sitting down and calculating was in direct refference so something Vince said in his previous post. Again, try to actually reatain what you read before you jump into the fray.

BTW - The buffer I was speaking us is for people that WANT to work, but can't make it on a minimum wage job. The money they put away to use as a buffer means that they can work that shit pay job and still make ends meet until the get a raise helping them to not to have to stay on or go back to welfare.

[The_Rorschach]

"Rommel is a horrible choice showing your ignorance of history. He was executed by Hitler ( Given a choice between suicide or execution followed by the ruining of Rommel's wife and son) for treason and was involved in the army not the SS. Rommel fought for Germany not Hitler or Hitler's policies. A poor choice for an insult."

Settle down there tiger.

Actually, it is fairly apt. When you spend enough time here, you will find that Vince is a mindlessly salivating moron, and even when he agrees with your points, he presents them in such an uneducated manner whereas to be singularly unhelpful.

You'll want to execute him too, in time.

I know who Rommel is, cut me some lack would you? I'm probably going to be the only person here who isn't going to try and rend your arguments apart.

[The_voice_of_reason]

It seems for vinny that george orwell was corect, his cheif strength is his ignorance. he blindly denies the facts presented to him yet refuses to present facts for his side of the argument, that reminds me of some one... oh yeah our dear president. Tell me vinny is your dad a texan oil baron, but i digress. and yes my dear friend you are racist. Just because you hide your views behind socially correct language i.e. immigrants instead of dirty Spics and Gooks (55% of immigrants are mexicans, 30% are from mailand asia) and by the way, unless you are a native american your ancestors were immigrants maybe if they kept their legs closed we wouldn't be subjected to your mindless propaganda.
:obey

[CaptainBubba]

The yin to vinces yang? Both highly arrogant, but both utterly opposed to eachother? I don't care who The_voice_of_reason is, but I like him because he capitalized Spics and Gooks but not asia.

edit: I really do like you except for the name.

[Jeanette X]

Alot of things, and the list of forbidden or re-written subjects as it were continues to grow.

Heres a good link to learn more about it.

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/ejournals/ALAN/winter94/CenCONN.html

These books were banned/challanged/altered yes...but the motive in most cases appears to have been good ol' fashioned prudery, not political correctness. Books were banned before political correctness appeared. Not every book-banning is caused by it, although some are, Huck Finn being the most well known example.
Furthermore, I have heard of many incidents of the relgious right getting their knickers in a twist because of evolution being taught in schools, and sex ed. Abstinance only sex ed is taught in Texas, and I think that religious prudery is the root of this, not PCness.
PCness generally comes into play with issues such as gender and race, not profanity and sexuality. That is job of outraged Christian parents. I am certain everyone is aware of the hissy fit being thrown about Harry Potter and how it supposedly teaches children that witchcraft is acceptable. Not to mention all the hullabo over "Heather and Her Two Mommies" a few years ago...

[The_voice_of_reason]

I'd like to aplogize for my previous post. I was in a hurry and neglected to proof-read it. As to the name, it is amusing to me, though you would not get it because you are not aquainted with me.

[VinceZeb]

It seems for vinny that george orwell was corect, his cheif strength is his ignorance. he blindly denies the facts presented to him yet refuses to present facts for his side of the argument, that reminds me of some one... oh yeah our dear president. Tell me vinny is your dad a texan oil baron, but i digress. and yes my dear friend you are racist. Just because you hide your views behind socially correct language i.e. immigrants instead of dirty Spics and Gooks (55% of immigrants are mexicans, 30% are from mailand asia) and by the way, unless you are a native american your ancestors were immigrants maybe if they kept their legs closed we wouldn't be subjected to your mindless propaganda.
:obey

Oh, I am racist? Please explain to me why I am racist. The last time I checked, I didn't think people of Italian ancestry were superior on a genetic level to other races. I must be racist becuase I pointed out that we have an border and immigrant problem in the United States. Anyone with a brain realizes that.

And forgive me for being, well.... more intelligent than you, "voice of reason", but you don't have to be Mexcian or Oriental to "abuse the system". St. Louis is a big enclave for immigrants from Central Europe, and a few of them abuse the system. Now, if I were racist, and thought of whites as the "master" race, I woudn't care about some of them freeloading. But I do.

If you can work and make our country better, come on in. Welcomed with open arms. If you are just going to soak up our tax dollars and be a lazy worthless fuck, then keep your ass in your own country. Besides, our borders are so pathetic that a terrorist can slip in relativity easy. Saying that I am "racist" is just the new way morons try to discredit someone. Learn what that word means before you use it.

Now, if you have had enough, I suggest you don't speak again. Anyone that just randomly comes in will see that you are a reactionary type who did not check all his facts before he blasted me with an accusation of being "racist". Those people usually don't garner or deserve respect.

[AChimp]

Anti-semitism is a form of racism, and you seem to have a great abundance of that. Where's your klan hood, Vinth?

[CaptainBubba]

Jeanette, you also aren't allowed to say Landlord, founding fathers, or snowman, because its considered sexist. You also cannot portray woman as anything but working women. That means no stories or history involving the "stay at home" mother.
It gets fairly ridiculous to say the least. Its hard for most people out of school to find out about it though, because its not like the kids realize they aren't recieving the same education their parents were.

Voice_of_reason: I really wasn't being sarcastic, I do like you... but I still don't like your name.

[mburbank]

I don't think Vince IS racist. I think he's a hateful sack of crap, proud enough of his ignorance to call it intelligence, selfish enough to loathe anyone he thinks might touch one of his dollars, weak willed enough to believe anyone who massages his hate, and blind enough to think his mouthy, mean spirited bluster is special.

Isn't that enough?

[VinceZeb]

Well, Chimp, if you knew anything, you would know that the Klan harrased Italian immigrants as well as Catholics during their peak, so I don't think I'll be joining the klan anytime soon. But then again, to know that you would have to have a brain, which your post show otherwise.

[AChimp]

:lol

Okay, we can add not understanding figures of speech to Vinth's list of attributes now, too.

[snake]

SOFT ON COMMUNISM!

[The_voice_of_reason]

The truly funny thing is that the unimployement rate amoung immigrants is constantly lower than that of naturalized citizens. The reason that they have lower incomes and therefore more eligable for economic aid is they don't have the nessicary education or the means to get that education. I forget why this is funny but it is.

Another thing is immigrants illegle or otherwise take the jobs no self-respecting educated american is willing to take, do you like vegetables? They were picked by immigrants. do you like your clothes? They were sewn by immigrants.

from vince
St. Louis is a big enclave for immigrants from Central Europe, and a few of them abuse the system.

in an earlier episode
You will learn a worldfull. Not everyone who is on these kinds of programs is lazy, but the majority abuse the system

[The_Rorschach]

"The truly funny thing is that the unimployement rate amoung immigrants is constantly lower than that of naturalized citizens. The reason that they have lower incomes and therefore more eligable for economic aid is they don't have the nessicary education or the means to get that education. I forget why this is funny but it is.

Another thing is immigrants illegle or otherwise take the jobs no self-respecting educated american is willing to take, do you like vegetables? They were picked by immigrants. do you like your clothes? They were sewn by immigrants. "

Prove it. Saying a thing doesn't make it so. Tell me, proporationately, exactly how many vegetables are picked by migrant workers working illegally within the US, and then compare that with the total number produced by other, legal, means -including, but not limited to, produce bought from foreign nations and imported or grown and harvested by legal residents.

Also, contrast the amount of clothing sewn by immigrants and sold domestically with that produced by manufacturers, corporations and small buisnesses without the use of immigrants.

Furthermore, once you have done that, I want you to compare the estimated number of illegal immigrants swarming into this nation with the number of immigrants employed in the fashion you cite above.

[Jeanette X]

Jeanette, you also aren't allowed to say Landlord, founding fathers, or snowman, because its considered sexist. You also cannot portray woman as anything but working women. That means no stories or history involving the "stay at home" mother.
Granted, that may be true, but those were not the subjects of the link you gave. (assuming I didn't overlook mentionings them) The link was more about prudery than pcness. Also, wouldn't all this depend on the school districts, the states, and the regions, as opposed to being uniform nationally? Which areas and schools specifically have made these things forbidden?

[CaptainBubba]

I'm gonna be honest here. I'm far too lazy to do your assigned research. I'm getting my info from various radio and news sources that have come and passed. I'm not going to work to prove a point that shouldn't even be an object of contention. Why do you find what I'm saying hard to believe?

[Jeanette X]

I'm gonna be honest here. I'm far too lazy to do your assigned research. I'm getting my info from various radio and news sources that have come and passed. I'm not going to work to prove a point that shouldn't even be an object of contention. Why do you find what I'm saying hard to believe?

I don't find it hard to believe that things like that happen. I am merely suggesting that perhaps the pc-induced censorship is not as pervasive as you seemed to imply.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

"Another thing is immigrants illegle or otherwise take the jobs no self-respecting educated american is willing to take, do you like vegetables? They were picked by immigrants. do you like your clothes? They were sewn by immigrants. "

Prove it. Saying a thing doesn't make it so. Tell me, proporationately, exactly how many vegetables are picked by migrant workers working illegally within the US, and then compare that with the total number produced by other, legal, means -including, but not limited to, produce bought from foreign nations and imported or grown and harvested by legal residents.

Also, contrast the amount of clothing sewn by immigrants and sold domestically with that produced by manufacturers, corporations and small buisnesses without the use of immigrants.

Furthermore, once you have done that, I want you to compare the estimated number of illegal immigrants swarming into this nation with the number of immigrants employed in the fashion you cite above.

Come now Ror, no need to be so confrontational here, a little bit of common sense should prevail. You're asking him (her?) for 100% accurate documentation on citizens who are not documented. Farmers, garment makers, and eating establishments look towards this illegal labor primarily BECAUSE it's "off the books," and requires no record keeping, no reporting to the IRS.

Think about the diners and restaurants you go to, the farms you drive by, etc. Economically speaking, the above claim makes sense. More Americans are getting college degrees than ever before, the economy as a whole is moving towards special services and skills, as opposed to manual labor and production.

[The_Rorschach]

Exactly my point Kev. There is no documentation, and yet he presents what his "feelings" tell him is true and presents it as fact.

I'm not going to just going to stand here idly and let him get away with it. I don't care how much sense something makes if it is not representative of the reality. If he wants to parrot unthruths and opinions, thats fine, but don't expectme to show silent toleration for it.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Exactly my point Kev. There is no documentation, and yet he presents what his "feelings" tell him is true and presents it as fact.

I'm not going to just going to stand here idly and let him get away with it. I don't care how much sense something makes if it is not representative of the reality. If he wants to parrot unthruths and opinions, thats fine, but don't expectme to show silent toleration for it.

Ok, so is there then documentation that proves something to the contrary?? Do you not agree that migrants carry a heavy burden of the American work load b/c you know it's not true, or do you not believe it b/c you don't want it to be true...?

[The_Rorschach]

I reserve judgement on the basis that necessary facts are not available, which I would think, is the prudent responce.

I do however, know for a fact that certain stastical data is misleading, for in California there are many migrant workers that are used to harvest produce, but many of them are citizens of Mexico allowed to operate on a work visa in the United States. However, they have been referred to as "immigrants" by certain liberals in the attempt to make the presence of all illegal immigrants somehow acceptable.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Oh, let me clarify myself, I'm not claiming that ALL immigrants involved in manual labor are illegal, although I'm sure many are. The other problem is that those work permits expire, and then they stay here. The line between "legal" and "illegal" isn't only a hard one to determine, but it seems to rapidly change per individual.

[The_Rorschach]

Well, this is what I know about Immigrants, regardless of whether they are illegal or not, immigrants are more of a drain to society than an asset. He wants to try and explain away their presence as though they were filling necessary economic niches which would otherwise never be filled, but he is wrong. Just to find a verifable online source, I took my stats from the Center For Immigration Studies.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/images101/imageT9D.JPG

"The poverty rate for immigrants is 50 percent higher than that of natives, with immigrants and their U.S.-born children (under age 21) accounting for 22 percent of all persons living in poverty."

=-=-=-=-
They comprise nearly a fifth of our poor, which is not anywhere near proportional to their total population presence.
=-=-=-=-

"The percentage of immigrants without a high school diploma is 30 percent, more than three times the rate for natives. Also, of all persons without a high school education, one-third are now immigrants. Immigrants are also slightly more likely than natives to have a graduate or professional degree. "

"One-third of immigrants do not have health insurance — two and one-half times the rate for natives. Immigrants who arrived after 1989 and their U.S.-born children account for 60 percent or 5.5 million of the increase in the size the uninsured population."

=-=-=-=-
Now this is a winning combination, but hey, its alright, because we need more unskilled labourers in a post-industrialized economy which is increasingly being driven by specialized and educated workers.
=-=-=-=-

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I realize you're being sarcastic, but your jest is accurate. We haven't moved towards a specialized economy simply because we're so wonderful and we can afford to, we've taken that direction greatly due to the ethnic and racial dichotomy within our work force.

I searched around the DOL's Bureau of Statistcs, but you know the government, they love to make it difficult for the average citizen to find some information.

And on the "burden" of the immigrants, isn't this a rather reactionary view point? Every wave of immigrant has historically been some kind of a "burden" on the existing society here. We are a country of immigrants, and IMO, it's simply the price you pay. I'm sure 50 years ago that blacks represented a larger share of that "burden," now, more blacks are improving (at least statistically speaking), and they are moving more and more into the "middle class."

Also, I have one problem with your chart. Perhaps immigrants comprise a large part of our poor, but they are also more heavily populated in states such as Texas, which offers less on social services and assistance programs anyway. How much of a drain or "burden" can they be...?

[The_Rorschach]

Check out "The American Kaleidoscope: Race, Ethnicity and Civic Culture" by Lawrence H. Fuchs

You're right, every wave of immigrants has been percieved as a threat. . .But not an economic one until recently. Previously, they had been viewed as religiously and ideologically subversive elements which, by their very presence, would undermine the American republic. Eventually, however, and generally within a single generation, those immigrants would find themselves fully immersed in American culture, because ours is not a racial or ethnic bond, but an an economic and political one. Economically, those immigrants were desired. Even states like Massechusettes and Pennsylvania came to terms with the fact that they were not only viable, but necessary, in a capitalistic sense.

Maybe its because past immigrants were mostly German, English and Irish, or maybe its because Americans of those periods were made of better stuff. . .But in any case, the immigrants of today neither show any inclination, nor even willingness, to assimilate. Nor are they fiancially lucretive.

I'm not saying their presence is a great threat, economically or sociably, but that does not make them in any way desirable

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You're right, every wave of immigrants has been percieved as a threat. . .But not an economic one until recently.

Was it just their Catholocism that made Americans suspicious of Irish immigrants in the 18th and 19th Centuries, or was it also certain stereotypes that prevailed about them...? Drinking, fighting, irresponsible behavior, etc.

I agree, they were perceived as a threat to the moral and social order, but there were economic implications as well, because their "wild" behavior was seen as a threat to a way of life, a staunch work ethic, etc.

Even such economic reasoning gets masked today. "Mexicans reproduce like rabbits," "Mexicans can't keep their legs closed," etc.

Do we really care about the size of a family that is traditionally large? I doubt it. We do however have this fear that 1. all of those "Mexican babies" will be competing with "native" Americans for jobs, and 2. we're worried that all of those immigrants will become our financial burden through programs of assistance.


Maybe its because past immigrants were mostly German, English and Irish, or maybe its because Americans of those periods were made of better stuff. . .But in any case, the immigrants of today neither show any inclination, nor even willingness, to assimilate. Nor are they fiancially lucretive.

Well, I think it's unfair to say they are poor because they are lazy. No, I have no empirical evidence to support it, but it just simply isn't the experience I've seen and witnessed. Latinos in particular do work I could not imagine doing, and they do it for very little.

Secondly, your information is a bit off if my recollection of the 2000 Census data serves me correctly. Asian Americans have in fact assimilated quite well into society, as have African Americans, who are truly our most unique "immigrant." (since you suggested a book to me, I'm going to suggest Facing up to the American Dream by Jennifer Hochschild to you). But anyway, according to the 2000 Census numbers, Latinos were the least "willing" to assimilate into American society, and furthermore, for such a thing to even happen in respect to their size in numbers, it would take a massive reorganization of American sub-urban lifestyle.

I'm not saying their presence is a great threat, economically or sociably, but that does not make them in any way desirable

Again, have to disagree. This country, IMO, not only SHOULD welcome them, but it NEEDS to welcome them. I don't think the American economy would totally collapse without their presence, but I do however feel that a great deal of our blue collar/agricultural/manual labor depends upon such people.

[The_voice_of_reason]

i said
The reason that they have lower incomes and therefore more eligable for economic aid is they don't have the nessicary education or the means to get that education.

you said
The poverty rate for immigrants is 50 percent higher than that of natives, with immigrants and their U.S.-born children (under age 21) accounting for 22 percent of all persons living in poverty." ....The percentage of immigrants without a high school diploma is 30 percent, more than three times the rate for natives. Also, of all persons without a high school education, one-third are now immigrants."

thanks for backing me up. And the information regarding the unemployment rate amoung immigrants i found in an EBSCO magazine search at my schools library and if i can find it again i will relay it to you. Also for kevin, he.

[The_Rorschach]

First, allow me to address our intellectually incompetent representatives:

"thanks for backing me up."

Did I? Let me see. . . You said:

The reason that they have lower incomes and therefore more eligable for economic aid is:

A.) "they don't have the nessicary education or the means to get that education. (emphasis added)

Everyone has the means to get at least a High School diploma. period. Even adults. Furthermore, you took only one half of that statistic and ran with it like, as Burbank said to describe someone of your mental calibre, 'a morbidly obese teenager squeezed intoa bigwheel.' If you had continued to read, you would have noted it also said Immigrants are also slightly more likely than natives to have a graduate or professional degree.

Conveniently miss that round boy?

Now, Kevin, I'm sorry. You were saying. . .

"Was it just their Catholocism that made Americans suspicious of Irish immigrants in the 18th and 19th Centuries, or was it also certain stereotypes that prevailed about them...? Drinking, fighting, irresponsible behavior, etc."

Thats only the Irish, and they did not account for anywhere near a majority of all immigrants from that period. Until World War 2, no less than 25% of all immigrants at any time came from Germany. The Irish are really only important because they were so uniformly hated in Europe and America. But you are right, of course, those stereotypes were just as persuasive, though not nearly as often voiced as the objections to their religion.

"I agree, they were perceived as a threat to the moral and social order, but there were economic implications as well, because their "wild" behavior was seen as a threat to a way of life, a staunch work ethic, etc."

I think you're stretching it a tad boyo.

"Even such economic reasoning gets masked today. "Mexicans reproduce like rabbits," "Mexicans can't keep their legs closed," etc."

That's Vince though, he's hardly an example of anyone else's beliefs. He can't even voice his own suitably. He confuses Immigrants with Poor People, and Ideology with Philosophy, Politics with Sociology, and Liberals with Celery. How much an authority is he really?

"Do we really care about the size of a family that is traditionally large?"

We do when those who have such familiar are existing stagnantly below the poverty line and show little or no prospects for improvement. That is, of course, a wild generalization, but not an entirely invalid one.

"We do however have this fear that 1. all of those "Mexican babies" will be competing with "native" Americans for jobs"

No we don't, we fear they won't. The objects against minorities aren't that they are stealing all the good jobs, its that they undermine our economic policy. Competition is supposed to breed success, a phrase I've been parroting on this board for years, but when you have to lower the requirements others must attain to compete, everyone loses. The more responsibility you take for an individual, the less they take for themselves. If they get the message they don't need to try as hard, and can succeed, they will try only as much as they need to.

"2. we're worried that all of those immigrants will become our financial burden through programs of assistance."

Outmoded, unecessary and irresponsible programs of assistance which should be done away with en toto, you forgot to mention.

"Well, I think it's unfair to say they are poor because they are lazy."

I agree, which is why I did not say that. I simply said they were not lucretive, meaning they do not leave the country richer for their having been here.

"No, I have no empirical evidence to support it, but it just simply isn't the experience I've seen and witnessed. Latinos in particular do work I could not imagine doing, and they do it for very little."

Yes, I agree, but that does not make them inherently necessary. I'm moving to VA with the intention of going into construction, that is my real world empiricism. There is nothing wrong with blue collar work, and to be honest, I look forward to it. They are illustrating in their actions, the American work ethic embraced by our ancestors, and I applaud them for it. . .So long as they are also willing to contribute civically as well, because otherwise, they are simple using the system to their own, selfish, benefit.

"Secondly, your information is a bit off if my recollection of the 2000 Census data serves me correctly."

Don't trust me, read it for yourself:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/back101.html

"Asian Americans have in fact assimilated quite well into society"

Chinatown is an excellent example of this. I know we have tons of them in California, one in Frisco, another in LA, one in SD. There is even one here in DT Honolulu. This is assimilation at its finest, a standard I wish the Irish had embraced.

"as have African Americans"

Really? Then why the constant cries for affirmative action and repparations? Why the accusations of institutionalized racism?

"(since you suggested a book to me, I'm going to suggest Facing up to the American Dream by Jennifer Hochschild to you)."

I'll read it when I have a chance, but this summer is going to be one that is going to be particularly harsh for me. I'll be offline from the end of this week until late September, but when I come back you'll hear my thoughts.

"But anyway, according to the 2000 Census numbers, Latinos were the least "willing" to assimilate into American society, and furthermore, for such a thing to even happen in respect to their size in numbers, it would take a massive reorganization of American sub-urban lifestyle."

No we do not change in order to make immigrants feel more at home, this is America, and if they are coming for any other reason than to be American, I will do everything I can in order to stop them from coming here.

"Again, have to disagree. This country, IMO, not only SHOULD welcome them, but it NEEDS to welcome them."

Why?

"I don't think the American economy would totally collapse without their presence, but I do however feel that a great deal of our blue collar/agricultural/manual labor depends upon such people."

While record number of naturalized Americans face homelessness and unemployment, while families are eating in soup kitchens though all adult members are working, you think we need to take care of those born to other countries? I say take care of our own, and until we can, everyone else can go straight to hell for all I care. One American life is worth more to me than any ten uitlanders.

[VinceZeb]

Ror, just because you can't understand something or you try to sit there and degrade me; it does make make what I say less of a truth.

[mburbank]

Shut your hose, clambake. The grownup table is having a conversation.

[VinceZeb]

"Shut your hose, clambake."

It's 2003, Max. I'm sorry we all aren't going to the hop after school for malts and a burger. Go back to eating strained beets and drinking Geritol.

[The_voice_of_reason]

Your way out of your league.

[VinceZeb]

I'm way out a league about the shift in conversation in a certain thread I have not even partaken in directly besides to state something about a message posted eariler before the thread shift.

Are you purposely stupid or is this an act?

[mburbank]

"it does make make what I say less of a truth."
-Vinth.

"I'm sorry we all aren't going ..."
-Vinth

"I'm way out a league about the shift in conversation in a certain thread I have not even partaken in directly besides to state something about a message posted eariler before the thread shift."
-Vinth

"Are you purposely stupid or is this an act?"
-Vinth


See what happens when you don't shut your hose, clambake?