Another obnoxious email forward from my grandmother

[Protoclown]

It's right about one thing, I couldn't believe what I was looking at when I opened this email.

Subject: Do Not Buy This Stamp

Do Not buy this Stamp


This one is impossible to believe. Scroll down for the text. If there is one thing you forward today.....let it be this.

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of PanAm Flight 103!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the military barracks in Saudi Arabia!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the American Embassies in Africa!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the USS COLE!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM attack on the Twin Towers on 9/11/2001!

REMEMBER all the AMERICAN lives that were lost in those vicious MUSLIM attacks!

Now the United States Postal Service REMEMBERS and HONORS the EID MUSLIM holiday season with a commemorative first class holiday postage stamp.

REMEMBER to adamantly and vocally BOYCOTT this stamp when purchasing your stamps at the post office. To use this stamp would be a slap in the face to all those AMERICANS who died at the hands of those whom this stamp honors.

REMEMBER to pass this along to every patriotic AMERICAN you know


I replied to the huge list of people she sent it to with a simple "This is a really bad joke, right?"

I wanted to say SOOOOOO much more, this thing really pissed me off. But it's my grandmother. And half my other extended relatives are on this mailing list too, but I don't know exactly which email addresses belong to who.

What pisses me off the most is that I have to bite my tongue and restrain myself no matter HOW horribly ignorant or offensive her email forwards get. Because it's my grandmother. And my parents will never let me hear the end of it if I really go off like I want to.

[AChimp]

Hmm... I've bitched out relatives before. Not my grandma, though... I guess it would depend on whether or not I was getting any part of the inheritance. ;)

[Rongi]

9-11 is so 2 years ago :rolleyes

[Protoclown]

I hope somebody on that list responds, so I have an excuse to write another letter.

I should have put "Remember all the MUSLIM AMERICANS who died in the attacks". :(

[Mockery]

Give me her email address. I'll respond. >:)

[Protoclown]

Oh, FUCK that! My entire family would disown me. ;)

[Captain Robo]

What's 9/11? :lol

[Rongi]

Do a visionary darkness on it proto.

If you do I hope it's like your other one on 9-11. I loved that one :(

[Anonymous]

I don't have any grandparents, but if I did, and they sent me an email like that, and if it would start a big fight by yelling at them about it

I would just try to politely respond to the email and gently in old lady speak explain why it's ignorant, wrong and offensive.

[Cap'n Crunch]

Just change your e-mail and don't tell her about it. :lol You won't get any more chain letters.

[Jeanette X]

Jesus Christ that makes me hopping MAD! If you want me to write out a simple crash course in Muslim religion and history for you to give to her, let me know.

[Psycho Squid]

Why don't you just block her e-mail address if you don't like what she writes?

[Miss Modular]

I bet my dad recieved that e-mail. :(

[Jeanette X]

I bet my dad recieved that e-mail. :(
Why do you say that?
Proto, perhaps you should send her this?
Thursday, October 18, 2001
Muslim stamp tangled in politics


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Symbol of inclusion a source of division


By Richelle Thompson
The Cincinnati Enquirer
Aminah Assilmi cried when United States postal workers on Sept. 1 unfurled a banner-sized replica of the first Muslim stamp.

Aminah Assilmi of Taylor Mill led a campaign to have the U.S. Postal Service create a stamp for the Muslim holidays of Eid.
(Associated Press photo)
| ZOOM |
To the Taylor Mill woman, the day was more than the culmination of a five-year push for the Postal Service to issue a Muslim postage stamp. It was a moment that marked a new level of acceptance for the estimated 6 million Muslims in America. The Islamic feast days of Eid would be on the corner of letters just as Christmas, Hanukkah and Kwanzaa stamps are.

“As a first-grade student wrote, "Now, I really feel like an American,'” says Ms. Assilmi. “It's a matter of feeling included.”

Acceptance elusive

But since the terrorist attacks, the stamp has become a reminder for some Muslims that full acceptance remains elusive.

A West Coast talk show host “made the observation that Eid was die spelled backward and that what we were really saying was, "Die America,'” Ms. Assilmi says. “It's very saddening.”


Some local postal workers have given her a hard time about the 34-cent stamp, Ms. Assilmi says, and she's had difficulty finding it at some post offices.

The Forest Park post office was out of the Eid stamps this week, and a worker said there were no plans to order more. At the Mason location, the Eid stamps were on display. A postal worker said they were selling slowly, like some other specialty stamps, including sets featuring composer Leonard Bernstein.

Bonni Manies, Cincinnati district spokeswoman for the Postal Service, says the Eid stamp is to be displayed and sold just like any special issue stamp. Although a couple of offices have called to ask whether to pull it off the shelves, Ms. Manies says the consumer affairs office has not received any complaints.

Nationally, the agency has heard some negative comments about the stamp, says Roy Betts, manager of special communications at the U.S. Postal Service in Washington, D.C. But, he says, most feedback has been positive.

A Muslim-themed stamp was chosen to reflect the religious diversity in America, Mr. Betts says. The Postal Service issues 35 to 40 new stamps a year chosen from among 50,000 recommendations and drawings submitted annually.


75 million printed

The agency printed 75 million Eid stamps, which will be sold for about a year. The Postal Service then will review the success of the Eid stamp before determining whether to issue another one, says spokeswoman Cathy Yarosky.

Ms. Assilmi launched a campaign for the stamp in 1996, when a friend's son saw a Hanukkah stamp and asked what the Muslim one looked like.

Ms. Assilmi encouraged the boy and his friends to write letters that she would forward to the Postmaster General. Ms. Assilmi contacted members of a national Muslim women's group and asked them to have their children also write. Within a week, she had 200 letters. By four months, there were 4,000 drawings with “Happy Eid America” and crayon-colored rainbows.

In June 1997, Ms. Assilmi was told the Postal Service would issue a Muslim stamp but didn't have a date. She decided to continue the campaign and put together a mile-long banner for children across the country to draw on and write letters. The next year was a postcard drive.

“Once it got started, I saw it as a wonderful opportunity to teach children they can make a difference,” says Ms. Assilmi.

It's unfortunate the Eid stamp has gotten tangled in politics, says Karen Dabdoub, administrator of the Islamic Center of Greater Cincinnati in West Chester.

When it was released last month “Everybody was so happy and proud and thrilled. Finally there was a stamp to honor one of our holidays.”

[Captain Robo]

Tell me how the muslims claim to be a religion of peace.

[Miss Modular]

Why do you say that?



This, ma'am (http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=3662).

[executioneer]

Tell me how the muslims claim to be a religion of peace.

THE SAME WAY THE CHRISTAINS DO :eek

BY BLOWING PEOPLE UP :lol

-willie

[soundtest]

“As a first-grade student wrote, "Now, I really feel like an American,'” says Ms. Assilmi.

:lol

[Jeanette X]

Tell me how the muslims claim to be a religion of peace.
Islam comes from the root word ‘salaam’, which means peace. It also means submitting one’s will to Allah. Thus Islam is a religion of peace, which is acquired by submitting one’s will to the will of the Supreme Creator, Allah.
What else do you want to know?
Oh and Soundtest? Go fuck yourself, you ignorant bigoted little shit.
:die :fu

[soundtest]

Ummm... if you're joking, ha. Otherwise, I think that was quite rude and uncalled for Xena girl. How the fuck does that make me bigoted? I was laughing at the fact that a quote like that would be hard to argue with politically. Now don't you have some wonderful, wild, and completely intriguing pictures of cats to enlighten us with? :rolleyes

[executioneer]

you guys BOTH need to learn how to read >:

-willie

[FS]

Want me to MAILBOMB that BITCH, Proto? >: >: >:

But seriously, I'm glad my grandmother barely knows how to work her TV. I occasionally exchange e-mails with my older brother, and that's it.

Whenever my grandmother says something I find narrow-minded, for instance when we're watching the news at her house, I tend to just shrug and maybe make an inarticulate noise. She's quite old (almost 90), from a different time, and I wouldn't want to spend our last years together fighting. Then again, since your grandmother seems to be very socially active, I guess it's different. I used to have an uncle who would sometimes go on little rants about immigrants, and I would always go against him in that.

[Anonymous]

You should kick her ass.

[Captain Robo]

Tell me how the muslims claim to be a religion of peace.
Islam comes from the root word ‘salaam’, which means peace. It also means submitting one’s will to Allah. Thus Islam is a religion of peace, which is acquired by submitting one’s will to the will of the Supreme Creator, Allah.
What else do you want to know?
Oh and Soundtest? Go fuck yourself, you ignorant bigoted little shit.
:die :fu

CHRISTIAN AND MUSLIM BOMB CONVENTION 2003

Soundtest is cool. Shut up >:

[kellychaos]

What's 9/11? :lol

Can someone explain to me ... in any context ... how this is funny? :/

[Zosimus]

CHRISTIAN AND MUSLIM BOMB CONVENTION 2003

Soundtest is cool. Shut up >:

You can obviously also be very uncool. Jeanette is right, and the wild kitties were VERY cool! So there :P!

[Protoclown]

Thanks for posting that article, Jeanette. I may just send that along, but I doubt it will make much of an impact. And to send her some information and history about Islam wouldn't do any good either, because "they're all going straight to hell because they don't follow Jesus".

And the reason I don't block her email address is because occasionally she writes me real letters.

I usually just delete the forwards, especially since my mom usually turns right around and sends them to me AGAIN (she doesn't seem to notice that I'm on the original list for some reason...but she's pretty new to this email thing so Il let it slide), but my mom just sends "cute" little stories and jokes. Shit that annoys me, but doesn't piss me off.

Sometimes I actually look at the forwards, and this is one of those times. I almost wish I hadn't, but at the same time maybe I can actually cure some ignorance if I talk to her about it. Though I know that arguing such things with old people who are already firmly set in their ways is usually quite futile.

[mburbank]

If my Grandma emailed me sothing like that I'd be all

"What the FUCK, Grandma, why'd you email that to me, what are you some FUCKING BIGOTTED RETARD?"

And she'd go

"Why are you yelling at me, potty mouth? I died before email was widely used and even then I could barely work toaster oven let alone a VCR."

[kellychaos]

If I could e-mail to the great beyond, I'd e-mail my dog a JPG of Liva-Snaps because he like them a lot. I don't get it though. I didn't think they tasted all that good.

[FS]

I see that this can only be settled in a knife fight.

[Jeanette X]

How the fuck does that make me bigoted? I was laughing at the fact that a quote like that would be hard to argue with politically. :rolleyes

I thought you were laughing at the idea that a Muslim would feel like they were a part of America. My apologies, Soundtest. I misunderstood.
And Proto, even if she thinks that they are all going to hell, there still is some possibility of convincing her that not all Muslims are monsters.

[AChimp]

I bet all grandmas are card-carrying Nazis incognito. >:

[Evil Robot]

I don't care what those muslim bastards say about terrorism. Truth is that besides 9/11, they really suck at blowing things up. The Irish are much more effective terrorists then those slow witted sand monkeys. Muslims lack the 12 volt wiring and automotive skills to make good car bombs, and their ambush plans usually lack the flexibilty needed for real life situations.

[Protoclown]

Okay, I got a response from my grandmother today where she replied to my "This is a really bad joke, right?" mail. Here is an excerpt of what she sent me (the rest is irrelevant to this discussion, unless you want to know about the weather in Florida):

dEAR jASON: i DO NOT KNOW IF THIS IS A HOAX OR NOT BUT i HAVE RECEIVED IT SEVERAL TIMES FROM SEVERAL DIFFERENT PEOPLE. I SURE HOPE IT IS NOT TRUE BUT YOU CAN BET I WILL KEEP MY EYE ON THE STAMPS AT THE POST OFFICE. THAT WOULD SURE BE A SLAP IN THE FACE OF THE U.S. IF IT IS TRUE.

And yes, sadly, that's exactly how it arrived in my inbox. But hey, she's old, she doesn't know about the whole caps lock thing.

That really upset me. She completely missed what I was trying to say, and realizing that I was a bit vague, I decided to send a much clearer response to the group:


I'm sorry, but I cannot remember the last time I was so upset by something I received in my mailbox, and my reply was apparently misunderstood (I was upset by this mail itself, not the stamp), based on the response I got. I don't mean to start anything here but I cannot remain silent on something I feel so strongly about.

To make myself clear, I SINCERELY hope nobody is taking this "boycott" seriously. There were MUSLIM AMERICANS who died in many of those attacks as well. I have several good MUSLIM friends, one of whom is currently serving in the U.S. Navy. The religion of Islam, while not my own preference, is at heart a relatively peaceful one (at least as much as any other). The extremists who have been attacking the US are insane fringe groups that are by no means representative of the religion as a whole. As such we should not discriminate against Muslims, many of whom just want to live peaceful lives and are as "American" as any of us on this list. Is there any religion on this earth that doesn't have members who are wacko extremists? I have yet to find one.

This notion of a boycott is ridiculous anyway when you consider that we (and anyone who would forward this email) are obviously not the demographic the stamp is aimed for. Since none of us would be inclined to purchase such a stamp in the first place, it does absolutely no good to actively boycott something you wouldn't buy anyway. The Muslim Americans who the stamp WAS made for are going to buy the stamp regardless. It celebrates their religious holiday season, just like the Christmas and Hanukkah stamps. And that, I think, is a good thing. There are a lot of Muslims in this country and instead of shunning them blindly we should accept them as our friends and neighbors. Because that's all most of them are, and all most of them WANT to be. Muslims aren't dangerous, nor are they the enemy. CRAZY Muslims are dangerous. Just like crazy Christians, Jews, Atheists, etc.

The only "slap in the face" to America I see going on here is in the creation of this email in the first place. The person who wrote it obviously doesn't have much of an idea what America stands for. In the past year and a half since the September 11th attacks, I have become disgusted with the direction our country has taken. Instead of trying to unite the world in peace, we have decided to divide it with hate and war. I think our actions have shamed those souls that died on that horrible day. Martin Luther King Jr. said "Peace is not merely a goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal". The United States is not seeking peace. That is not our goal. But it should be. (And no, I haven't turned into some kind of granola munching hippy who wants to abolish the military, but there is a time and a place and lately I think our motives have been severely misplaced).

I urge everyone to delete this stamp boycott mail and forward it to absolutely NO ONE. It only spreads the hate and paranoia that we should have learned to avoid after September 11th. Once again, I don't mean to upset anyone, but I can only bite my tongue to a point before I have to speak out. If I did upset you, by all means, speak up, and maybe we can learn a thing or two from each other.


I tried to be VERY polite and reasonable about it. I'm sure somebody is going to get huffy and pissed off about it though. I'll keep you posted if anything interesting flies into my inbox.

[Rongi]

Looks like no more fresh baked cookies for you anymore, proto :(.

[Protoclown]

I tried to restrain myself as much as possible. Do you think I went too far?

I think it was a very carefully written mail. I hope I'm not wrong.

[Rongi]

I'm just joking :(

I don't think you went too far. It sounds like you mean well in the letter. But if I sent something like that to my grandmother, even if I told her I meant well, she would smash my car windows in :/ :(.

[Protoclown]

If there's anything worth being disowned by your extended family for, it's this.

Or dating a black girl.

[Jeanette X]

Well said Proto. Let us know how this turns out.

[sadie]

i need a holding-up-the-burning-lighter emoticon. :P i'm proud of you for taking a speaking your peace, proto. it was worth it to do, even if it doesn't expand even one person's worldview even just a bit.

[Protoclown]

Thanks guys. That means a lot.

[Anonymous]

I thihk that was a good response. How old is your granma anyway

[Wang]

i dont have to worry about my grandma doing something like that. se can hardly speak english and they dont own a computer

[Rongi]

se can hardly speak english and they dont own a computer

It must run in the family.

[Miss Modular]

mom just sends "cute" little stories and jokes. Shit that annoys me, but doesn't piss me off.

My dad does this too.

[ItalianStereotype]

why did you choose to post this in GB instead of poli/philo?

[FS]

Is there any religion on this earth that doesn't have members who are wacko extremists? I have yet to find one.

Buddhism? :) Raelianism? :) Church for the Greater Glory and Improved Lifestyle of FS? :)

That was a very good response, I think. I hope, even if it doesn't sway her from her opinion, she'll respect yours.

[Spectre X]

Buddhism doesn't belong there really, it does because Buddhists don't tend to take people with them, but some monks set themselves on fire.

[Protoclown]

Good point, Italian. I'm going to move it to the Political forum, where it belongs.

I showed it to one of my best friends and he said I probably should have just ignored it rather than assert my opinion on all of them.

[Carnivore]

Well he's wrong, God dammit! Dead wrong. You did right, son. And I'm proud of you :rock

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I guess I'm sort of fortunate in regards to my family and politics. My family overall tends to be conservative. They know where I stand on things, and they in fact encourage it. Sure, we take shots at each other here and there, but generally we respect each others views and don't push buttons.

For example, my uncles are all very conservative. We've had some heated matches, but ultimately, it's not worth fracturing family relations over SUVs and dividends, IMO. One of his daughters is my God daughter, despite differences of opinion.

I'm sorry about the shitty e-mail, Proto. :(

[Protoclown]

Well, so far I haven't received any responses, and I don't think I'm going to. So I don't know how any of them took my reply.

I did write my grandmother another letter the same day though, just a personal "hi, how ya doing, sorry about this other letter" kind of thing. Normally she writes me right back.

But so far? Nothing but tumbleweeds. I think I may have offended her.

But hey, she offended ME first.

[Anonymous]

I see nothing wrong with how you responded. You weren't nasty or anything like that at all. (I think her email was nasty though) Anyway, if she is going to give you the silent treatment now or something.. I'd say Granma needs to grow up

[ItalianStereotype]

Good point, Italian. I'm going to move it to the Political forum, where it belongs.

everyone who responded to this thread who wasn't a complete moron usually posts in the political forum anyway.

it seems to me that your grandmother considers herself a nationalist and a patriot, but maybe doesn't have quite as broad of a world view as you do. regardless, you always have a right to make your opinions known, especially around family. whether they agree or disagree, family remains so.

i disagree with you about Islam being, at heart, a religion of peace. i think that, since its founding, many Muslims have grown peaceful. in the days of Mohammed, however, violence, conversion at swordpoint, and bloody expansionism were all preached as the will of Allah (in a fundamentally different way than Christianity).

[KevinTheOmnivore]

i disagree with you about Islam being, at heart, a religion of peace. i think that, since its founding, many Muslims have grown peaceful. in the days of Mohammed, however, violence, conversion at swordpoint, and bloody expansionism were all preached as the will of Allah (in a fundamentally different way than Christianity).

I agree with you to an extent, but come on, the Crusades? The Inquisition? The 30 Years War? The Salem Witch trials? This nut job who bombed the Olympics and possibly an abortion clinic? Were his views in line with the "fundamental" teachings of Christianity, or is he just a nut who misinterprets things?

[ItalianStereotype]

the olympic bomber? that guy was as much of a nut as anyone can be.

for the common man, the crusades were entirely religious, but for the papacy it had more of a political bend. remember, at that time the kingdoms of Europe were only a few hundred years old and were still fragmented; the only strong kingdom, the Germanic empire, threatened the security of the papal seat.

the inquisition...i would consider that an internal problem of christianity, not so much a civil war, but more of a culmination of all the internal strife caused by seperationist protestants and, in spain's case, moors. while this does not excuse the spaniards for their actions, what they did should not be held against the other christian kingdoms of europe. spain at this time was THE christian fanatic of the world as well as one of the most powerful countries in Europe. it is difficult to say "no" to a country that could easily exterminate your entire culture. this is also partially the reason for the 30 years war. besides, islam at this time had grown somewhat...sadistic. i mean, look at the janissaries...

overall, this war is far too complex to simply be called a religious war. under the augsburg settlement of 1555, lutheranism was granted official recognition within the bounds of the HRE, the catholic church permanently lost lands seized by secular lords, and German princes could force their religion onto their subjects. after the peace was signed, however, many princes converted to Calvinism, legally putting them outside the terms of the agreement. when said princes continued encroaching on legally Catholic lands, small alliances were formed to protect catholic claims. at the same time, the austrians and the bohemians began a series of escalations that eventually led to open conflict and an anti -habsburg alliance that drew spain into the war. spain, looking to reclaim the power that it had been steadily losing since the end of the 16th century, invaded the lower Palatinate (whose king had also been crowned king of Bohemia, so it all works out) in order to unite its Dutch provinces with its northern italian holdings. this brought the french, the danes, and almost drew the english into the war. when habsburg forces claimed mecklemburg, gustavus adolphus of sweden invaded northern germany out of fear of habsburg dominance of the baltic. by the time westphalia was signed, the war was almost entirely secular.

so anyway, i might have rambled on there a bit...

[KevinTheOmnivore]

the olympic bomber? that guy was as much of a nut as anyone can be.

for the common man, the crusades were entirely religious, but for the papacy it had more of a political bend. remember, at that time the kingdoms of Europe were only a few hundred years old and were still fragmented; the only strong kingdom, the Germanic empire, threatened the security of the papal seat.

the inquisition...i would consider that an internal problem of christianity, not so much a civil war, but more of a culmination of all the internal strife caused by seperationist protestants and, in spain's case, moors. while this does not excuse the spaniards for their actions, what they did should not be held against the other christian kingdoms of europe. spain at this time was THE christian fanatic of the world as well as one of the most powerful countries in Europe. it is difficult to say "no" to a country that could easily exterminate your entire culture. this is also partially the reason for the 30 years war. besides, islam at this time had grown somewhat...sadistic. i mean, look at the janissaries...

overall, this war is far too complex to simply be called a religious war. under the augsburg settlement of 1555, lutheranism was granted official recognition within the bounds of the HRE, the catholic church permanently lost lands seized by secular lords, and German princes could force their religion onto their subjects. after the peace was signed, however, many princes converted to Calvinism, legally putting them outside the terms of the agreement. when said princes continued encroaching on legally Catholic lands, small alliances were formed to protect catholic claims. at the same time, the austrians and the bohemians began a series of escalations that eventually led to open conflict and an anti -habsburg alliance that drew spain into the war. spain, looking to reclaim the power that it had been steadily losing since the end of the 16th century, invaded the lower Palatinate (whose king had also been crowned king of Bohemia, so it all works out) in order to unite its Dutch provinces with its northern italian holdings. this brought the french, the danes, and almost drew the english into the war. when habsburg forces claimed mecklemburg, gustavus adolphus of sweden invaded northern germany out of fear of habsburg dominance of the baltic. by the time westphalia was signed, the war was almost entirely secular.

so anyway, i might have rambled on there a bit...

Eye Tie, I realize the examples I mentioned have political and economic undertones to them, but that was kind of my point. The things I cited can't be used against Christianity per se b/c of some of the examples you mentioned above. However, if a muslim uses a slanted perspective on his own religion to eliminate a political, social, or geographic enemy, the same rules don't suddenly apply?

The 30 Years War is a good example. Like you said, the religious "theme" guised many other issues, and in fact, if I'm correct, France often flip flopped on faiths in order to position themselves better against Spain and the Habsburghs. Doesn't the Islamic faith, and all atrocities commited in "its" name, deserve the same historical scrutiny?

[ItalianStereotype]

ah. i thought that what you were asking me was much more simplistic. my mistake.

well basically, my take on it is that Christianity started as a non-violent religion that supported faithful non-violent resistance and, as it grew in magnitude, became more violent as it meshed with the secular and political world. islam, however, started out as violent, grew decadent under the osmanli turks, and is now caught between the violent fundamentalists and a more peaceful interpretation (in western countries more than in the empire of Islam itself).

perhaps i should go into more detail, but it will have to wait. i need to go look for a job.

[Jeanette X]

[quote="ItalianStereotype"]
well basically, my take on it is that Christianity started as a non-violent religion that supported faithful non-violent resistance and, as it grew in magnitude, became more violent as it meshed with the secular and political world. islam, however, started out as violent, grew decadent under the osmanli turks, and is now caught between the violent fundamentalists and a more peaceful interpretation (in western countries more than in the empire of Islam itself).[quote]

What about these Bible passages? And Revalations?

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."-Matthew 10:34

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. " - Luke 14:26

[ItalianStereotype]

the way I view the Bible, or more specifically the Gospels, is as a set of beliefs to govern the faithful in their struggle against evil (Satan and his lot) not mankind. unfortunately, I have not made a study of the Bible, so if you want to make a discussion of it, I will be casting about somewhat blindly.

[Zosimus]

well basically, my take on it is that Christianity started as a non-violent religion that supported faithful non-violent resistance and, as it grew in magnitude, became more violent as it meshed with the secular and political world. islam, however, started out as violent, grew decadent under the osmanli turks, and is now caught between the violent fundamentalists and a more peaceful interpretation (in western countries more than in the empire of Islam itself).


I am by no means an expert on Islam either, but I think to postulate that Islam came out of violence is just a too broad, and over-generalized statement.
If we go back in time, you will see that the very concept of paradise came from West Persia, by the founder of Zoriastrianism, Zarathustra. It was his vision (approx. 508 BC) of paradise that became the very foundation of what christians call "Heaven," prior to that we had a volatile earth, were God was a confusion! God/Jehova would reward people, as he would punish him. With the paradise concept, came Lucifer/Satan and thereby an opposition of Good vs. Evil.
The old testament will actually show you, time and time again, how violent God "himself," was at the time. With the coming of the Messiah in the New testament, as predicted in the old testament, God changed "his" ways and became peace-loving and peace-craving, as did the followers of the faith.
Sufi's are muslim and just like in Christianity, Islam branches out into several different types of worship), the Sufi's are the most peace-loving people/muslims in the world. They have often been persecuted by shiites. Christain have been violent and aggressive in their conversions of people. Crusaders would Kill, missionaries worked and imposed on others until their point was swallowed.

Muslims today, are seperated in two groups. The followers of Mohammad (the prophet)= Sunni, or the followers of Ali ( a militant religeous figure)= Shiite.

All religions seem to preach peace but ultimately, man will be the one to decide in the end...(may God help us all!)

Check this out:

(taken from a pretty shitty non-religeous board elsewhere on the net)

"Seeing Islam as 'Evil' Faith, Evangelicals Seek Converts"
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN (NYT) 1853 words

"Late Edition - Final , Section A , Page 1 , Column 3
ABSTRACT - Evangelical Christians seek to woo Muslims away from Islam; teacher at recent seminar in church fellowship hall in Grove City, Ohio, shows passages from Koran that he says proves Islam is regressive, fraudulent and violent; incendiary comments about Islam from religious leaders like Franklyn Graham, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and Jerry Vines have drawn rebukes from Muslims and Christian groups alike, but many in grass roots of evangelical Christianity have absorbed their antipathy for Islam; in evangelical churches and seminaries across country, lectures and books criticizing Islam and promoting strategies for Muslim conversions are gaining currency; Arab International Ministry, group that leads crash courses on Islam, claims to have trained 4,500 American Christians to proselytize Muslims in last six years, many of those since 2001 terrorist attacks; their basic presumption is that world's two largest religions are headed for confrontation, with Christianity representing what is good, true and peaceful and Islam what is evil, false and violent; National Assn of Evangelicals has called on Christian leaders to temper their anti-Islam oratory, saying it is unhelpful to interfaith relations and dangerous to Christians spreading gospel to Muslims; historians note enmity between Christianity and Islam dates as far back as Crusades; photo (L) On a recent Saturday in a church fellowship hall here, evangelical Christians from several states gathered for an all-day seminar on how to woo Muslims away from Islam.

The teacher urged a kindly approach: always show Muslims love, charity and hospitality, he said, and carry copies of the New Testament to give as gifts. The students, scribbling notes, included two pastors, a school secretary and college students who said they hoped to convert Muslims in the United States, or on mission trips abroad."

Did someone say "Good Christian"? :rolleyes

[ItalianStereotype]

I'm not saying that Islam "came out" of violence, but it is a generally known fact that Mohammed the Prophet preached violence and conquest.

when Mohammed first began seeing visions of the Angel Gabriel, he was under the protection of his uncle Abu Talib. in 619 Talib died and Mohammmed's second uncle withdrew his promise of protection. thus, "the Prophet" was forced to leave Mecca. it took him years to establish any kind of authority in Medina, and then only because of the constant raids that he launched against the caravans leaving Mecca. in April 623, a group of 60 arabs attacked one particular caravan, firing arrows at the guards and shouting "for Allah and Mohammed" arguably the first violence committed in the name of Islam. as word of Mohammeds raiders continued to spread, a force of some 800 Meccans moved to confront Mohammed and raze Medina. at the Battle of Badr, Mohammed claimed to have seen visions which helped spur his outnumbered men to rout the enemy. this prestigious victory convinced many thousands of tribesmen who were still unsure about the legitimacy of Islam. shortly afterwards, two poets were captured from the retreating Meccan forces. their job had been to come along and write a glorious epic about the destruction of the upstart Mohammed and his "false religion." Mohammed had them promptly beheaded, their skulls emptied and left for all passing to see. Mohammed, with his army of Islam, now set out to conquer Mecca. before he could, however, a restless Jewish tribe, Qurayzah, revolted against their new lords and requested freedom to leave Mohammed's lands. 10,000 arab warriors descended on them, killing all the men, those who resisted and those who didn't, and selling the women and children into slavery. in 630, Mecca fell to Mohammed and all armed men were slaughtered and lined up at the city walls. with his former seat of power restored, Mohammed next assaulted the northern arab tribes, ravaging their ancestral homelands and dividing the plunder amongst his men. with this, all the Arab tribes were now united under the banner of Islam and thoroughly under Mohammeds control. unfortunately for them, this meant that they could no longer plunder and kill each other. thus it was decided that the new "empire of Islam" would challenge the strength of the Byzantines far to the north. before he could, however, Mohammed died on a pilgrimage to Mecca.

what was it that made Islam so appealing to so many men? economic and political stability as well as a new faith that promised paradise to those who fell in battle and plunder for those who didn't. Islam was violent during its early life because the Arabs lived in a warrior culture.

still too general for you?

oh, and attacking christianity because it is actively seeking converts is just about the stupidest thing you could have brought to the discussion.

[Cap'n Crunch]

It doesn't really matter of the religion, it is just how people act. I don't know any of my friend's religions, and I won't ask. People stereotype people of this religion because of this, and it isn't true. People are people, and if they act crazy, that is on them. :/

[ItalianStereotype]

shutup whore.

[Protoclown]

I am pleased. My grandmother wrote me back tonight, actually, and she said that she was very surprised by and impressed with my letter. She said I was a "natural writer" (haha!) and that she showed the letter to my grandfather (a World War II veteran), and after discussing it they saw my point. Now they see the situation differently and they both agree with me! How about that?

I'm glad I was able to provoke some examination of the issue.

[Jeanette X]

Yay! Go Proto! :rock :party :worship

[mburbank]

Proof positive that love is stronger than hate.

Unless hate has a hijacked airplane or a cluster bombs or depleted uranium shells.

[Bennett]

"Grove City, Ohio,"

:/

ten minutes from my house.

[Zosimus]

Thank you Italian on your thorough "un-generalized" information, it was interesting reading! I appreciate learning new things, even when its served it in such a hostile manner. And I just want to add that I was not trying to take a stab at Christianity! I was merely pointing out that I believe that most (of the big) religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddism) were born in times with little or no laws in regard to people acting "civilized" toward each other. Looking around the world today, just makes me wonder if religion, politics or any other "laws" really ever made any great difference to mankind!

Proto...Thank God: Allah/Buddah/the million Hindu Gods/Ra/Jehova/Cosmos/ Universe/etc. for people that think and act like you! :bow :)