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Jeanette X
May 29th, 2003, 03:16 PM
(the bold emphasis is my own)
Source: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0521-09.htm
Published on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 by OneWorld.net
Defense Spending Bill Attacks Wildlife Protection
by J.R.Pegg, Environmental News Service


WASHINGTON - The House version of the 2004 military budget contains provisions that critics believe will gut the Endangered Species Act and the Marine Mammal Protection Act. Rather than just exempt the military from the two laws as requested by the Bush administration, House Republicans have included exemptions that could apply to other federal agencies and private industry.

"This has turned into industry gang warfare on the nation's two leading conservation laws under the guise of military readiness," said Phillip Clapp, president of the National Environmental Trust.

The provisions are "irresponsible," said U.S. Representative Ellen Tauscher, a California Democrat.

Congressional Republicans and the administration, Tauscher said today in a teleconference with reporters, are using "our military victories and the goodwill they have accrued to try to roll back these very important environmental protections."

In its budget proposal to Congress, the Bush administration asked for broad exemptions from five major environmental laws, which officials say are compromising the military's training and readiness.

Exemptions from hazardous waste laws and the Clean Air Act were stripped from the military spending bill, but the provisions to exempt the military from the Endangered Species Act (ESA) and the Marine Mammal Protection Act (MMPA) were rewritten and expanded by the House Resources Committee.

The bill changes the ESA by eliminating the requirement to designate critical habitat on all federal lands--the military had asked just for exemption on lands it controls.

It requires that only critical habitat deemed "necessary" be designated but fails to define "necessary," leaving the protection of critical habitat to the discretion of the Secretaries of Interior and Commerce.

This cuts out the heart of the ESA, environmentalists say, and leaves decisions about when and where to designate critical habitat solely in the hands of political appointees.
Critical habitat is "the only provision in the act that proactively protects habitat," said Bill Snape, chief counsel with Defenders of Wildlife and chairman of the Endangered Species Coalition.

Habitat degradation is the number one reason for species decline--some 85 percent of species currently listed on the ESA are in decline because of habitat loss.

In addition, the bill eliminates the designation under the ESA of any critical habitat on all lands "owned or controlled" by the military where the Defense Department has established its own Integrated Natural Resources Management Plan, even though the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has shown this type of plan is inadequate for the protection of endangered species.

This could affect some 25 millions acres nationwide, including crucial habitat for more than 300 species now on the brink of extinction.

"These changes represent a major attack at the core of the act," Clapp said.

The bill makes three broad changes to the MMPA, including a provision that allows the Department of Defense to grant itself categorical exemptions from the law.

It revises the current definition of "harassment"--not just for the military, but for all ocean users.

Environmentalists fear this will allow projects, such as oil and gas exploration and high intensity sonar testing, to escape analysis by wildlife agencies, public comment, monitoring, and mitigation.

The MMPA's provision to protect marine mammals from harassment is "one the cornerstones of the Act," explains Naomi Rose, a marine mammal scientist with the Humane Society.

The existing definition is "very precautionary and very protective," Rose said, but the bill turns this definition on its head.

The bill removes the current requirement of MMPA's permitting process that requires any injuring or killing of marine mammals be limited to "small numbers" in a "specific geographical region."

"There is simply no need for such broad exemptions from the law," said Congressman Tom Allen, a Maine Democrat.

Critics of these exemptions say supporters have no evidence that even the military needs exemption from these laws.

Both the ESA and the MMPA have case by case exemptions for national security and a recent General Accounting Office report found that the Pentagon had failed to show any evidence that environmental laws had compromised military readiness.

A host of state officials have criticized the administration's plan, which they believe abdicates the federal government from important conservation measures and shifts a greater burden onto states and local governments.

"For the Department of Defense, this is simply a matter of convenience--they do not want to be bothered," Allen said. "The military has never said there has been a problem with readiness because of an environmental law and it looks and it feels like they are making this up for their own convenience."

The lack of empirical evidence that the military needs exemptions from environmental laws has prompted "DOD political appointees to aggressively distort facts to try and make their case," Snape said.

He cited false information given to Senator John McCain, an Arizona Republican, about the impact protection for Sonoran pronghorn was alleged to have had on military training.

McCain said in a Senate hearing that 40 percent of flyovers at overflights at the Barry Goldwater range had been cancelled or postponed because of Sonoran Pronghorn conservation efforts. The real number is six percent, Snape said, and McCain has asked a commission to investigate.

"They are constantly pushing the factual envelope trying to make their case because when the facts speak for themselves, they are not left with much," Snape said.

Critics point to an amendment added to the bill by Arizona Representative Rick Renzi, a Republican, as evidence that the bill's supporters are simply pushing an ideological and political agenda.

Renzi's provision gives the military an exemption from any responsibility for ground water pumping around Arizona's Fort Huachuca. Environmentalists say this will be devastating for the adjacent San Pedro River and its watershed, considered by many to be one of the the most biologically diverse ecosystems on Earth.

"This would kill the last living river in an American desert," Snape explained. "It has nothing to do with DOD readiness."

House Democrats are preparing several amendments to revoke the broad exemptions to the MMPA and the ESA contained in the bill, but Tauscher acknowledged she and some of her colleagues are looking to the Senate to help eliminate these provisions.

The current Senate version of the bill only exempts the military from the ESA.

If House Republicans believed the American public supported their broad revisions to the ESA and the MMPA, Tauscher said, they would not have slipped them into the $400 billion defense spending bill.

"We need to stop this pernicious attack on our environment at a time when we have many other things that we should be doing," Tauscher said.
:faint

mburbank
May 29th, 2003, 03:46 PM
Want to bet a professional lobbyist (as opposed to an actual elected legislator or their staff) crafted the language for that bill? I'd put good money on the table.

Jeanette X
May 29th, 2003, 04:47 PM
If anyone wants to send an e-mail to their congressperson telling them they aren't happy with this, go here. Just fill in the appropriate slots.
http://actionnetwork.org/campaign/dod?source=an2

GAsux
May 29th, 2003, 11:20 PM
You know I always feel obligated to stick up once in a while here!

For the record, and the article touches on it pretty well, I'd like to point out again that this did not come from within the military. I have worked in or near locations that contained a significant amount of wildlife, including Camp Pendleton and my experience has been that they do a very good job of abiding by those laws. It's a shame that someone has attempted to take it a step farther for the own benefit because ultimately it will appear as if it's being driven by the military types when clearly that's not the case.

Jeanette X
May 29th, 2003, 11:50 PM
I agree, Gasux. The military's initial proposal was somewhat reasonable. Sometimes wildlife can interfere with training excercises, and I think that exemptions should be made-but only in very specific circumstances.

GAsux
May 30th, 2003, 12:18 AM
Quite honestly, I would be willing to bet that each year half the proposed budget increases are for things the service chiefs never asked for.

You see, Sen X. doesn't so much care about whether the Air Force really needs more C-17s, or whether the Army really needs a new weapons system. All Sen. X cares about is jobs and money is his state. So therefore, every year we blow money on things the services never asked for in the first place.

Its unfortunate that most people are relatively short sighted and associate large military budgets with military folks, as if they are somehow reaping the benefit. My W-2s will respectfully disagree.

VinceZeb
May 30th, 2003, 07:28 AM
GA is right. The grunts of the military don't make shit but then again we have those stupid slogans of "I hope one day that the military has to have a bake sale to buy weapons" blah blah blah.

I have no problem with my taxes being used to pay people who fight for our country more money. If I have to choose beween some art critic being payed 80,000 by the state in endowments or a sgt making that, I am picking the sgt.

mburbank
May 30th, 2003, 09:14 AM
If I have to choose between soldier and you having your lips sewn shut I'm going to go with you. Can you follow a conversation at all?


I strongly urge all of you to write your reps on this. It's shady, sleazy and manipulative, and even if you're for weaker species protection, you should be against shadow legislation like this crap. Any legislation a rep is afraid to write for what it is is something he's afraid won't ever pass on it's own merits.

GAsux
May 30th, 2003, 11:07 AM
I agree. I was just pointing out the fact that in my opinion attaching self serving legislation to defense bills based upon "military" necessity is usual a scam, and has little to do with either the military or necessity.

This year's entire defense budget package seems a little shady and it's proponents have been really pushing to railroad through without debate or examination in an attempt to capitalize on the "national security" rhetoric.

VinceZeb
May 30th, 2003, 11:47 AM
Fuck off, Jewy Jewstein. I was commenting on what GA said. I don't remember inviting you to respond.

mburbank
May 30th, 2003, 12:04 PM
That's funny that Jewy, thing. You should do it more, because it's the kind of edgy social satire you're really good at, and it shows you off in the best possible light.

GA, I absolutely agree with your point.

Vinth, your tangent was just that and was in no way a comment on what GA had said, unless this is what you mean by 'comment'.\


Vinth-"Fuck off, Jewy Jewstein. I was commenting on what GA said. I don't remember inviting you to respond."

Me: Vinth is right. People do comment with ivitation. If I had to choose between commenting on a person who interupts and Vinth who is a gigantic bag of crap, I'd pick the interupter every time.

Just because your post followed GA's, mentioned him by name, and used some of the same words doesn't make it a comment. It has to in some way be a part of the discussion and not just an interjection. But you can't make that judgement, becuase this discussion, like most of the discussions here, is beyond you.

And Art 'Critics' don't get grants from foundations or the government or anybody, you stupid mook. Do you even know what a critic is, or where you just 'typing too fast' again?

Protoclown
May 30th, 2003, 12:15 PM
I thought this thread was going to be about a bunch of animals putting on a play :(

mburbank
May 30th, 2003, 12:20 PM
Shut up, Clowny Clownstein!

Protoclown
May 30th, 2003, 12:29 PM
If you keep stealing Vince's thunder like that, what will he ever have to say to me? :(

*sigh* He'll never even know I exist! :tear

kellychaos
May 30th, 2003, 12:42 PM
LIBERTARIANS: AN ENDANGERED SPECIES

CAST OF CHARACTERS

Mangy : A contaminated rabbit
Vinth : as himself
Ted Nugent: as himself

SCENE: edge of the woods near a major U.S. army installation. Vince and Ted have decided to go hunting today and happen upon a sick looking rabbit.

<enter Vince and Ted from stage right>

Vinth: I'm so glad you asked me to go hunting with you, Ted... you're still gonna let be blow you later, right? :)

Ted: Whoah! Down Submariner! We'll get to that later ... Wait! ... What's that? It looks like a sickly rabbit. :(

Vinth: Can I shoot it? I can shoot real good. I have lots of uncles who showed me how to shoot real good. I defended my whole family against Maoist asians once! >:

Ted: Put down your Daisy, Vinth. That rabbit is in trouble and needs our help. :eek

* Feel free to add on. :)

VinceZeb
May 30th, 2003, 01:05 PM
I didn't know pussies were allowed in our fine Armed Services... well at least they don't come out pussies. I guess Kelly is the standard breaker.

kellychaos
May 30th, 2003, 01:24 PM
:lol :hankyforthebitchboy

Bennett
May 30th, 2003, 02:22 PM
I didn't know pussies were allowed in our fine Armed Services

because the g.i.'s you always think of while you jerk off are always lean, oiled, hairless, hard-bodied studs, right?

Zhukov
May 30th, 2003, 02:28 PM
well at least they don't come out pussies.

Actually, they do.

As Ali G said 'we all come from the punani' :)

GAsux
May 30th, 2003, 05:33 PM
"didn't know pussies were allowed in our fine Armed Services... "

Yeah I know! I mean, after all, they turned YOU down. You might have a case there Vinny. You are your submarine letter, along with documentation that the military did allow SOME pussies in, and you might be in the money. Why, they might even let you sign up!

Jeanette X
Jul 7th, 2003, 08:12 PM
http://www.nwf.org/enviroaction/index.cfm?articleId=202&issueId=25
Senate Rejects ESA Exemptions
Small Victory For Wildlife

In a dramatic and unexpected victory for the environment, the Senate in May denied the Bush administration's request to grant the military a far-reaching exemption from the Endangered Species Act (ESA).

In a narrow vote of 51 to 48, the Senate passed an amendment to the Defense Authorization Bill that gives the Defense Department some flexibility to obtain waivers from the ESA's critical habitat designation requirement on a case-by-case basis, but denies the broad ESA exemption requested by the administration. The amendment, offered by Senators Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ), Jim Jeffords (I-VT), Daniel Akaka (D-HI) and Joe Lieberman (D-CT), was supported by nearly all Senate Democrats. Four Republican senators, Lincoln Chafee (RI), Arlen Specter (PA), Olympia Snowe (ME) and Susan Collins (ME), also voted in favor of the amendment.

"In a victory for people and wildlife, the Senate chose to adopt a flexible case-by-case approach to species protection on our nations military bases, rather than the rigid nationwide exemptions sought by the Department of Defense," says NWF Senior Counsel John Kostyack. "This vote recognizes the military's already longstanding approach of working through ESA compliance issues on a case-by-case basis-a tactic that has proven successful for both wildlife and military preparedness."

Unfortunately, the House version of the defense bill, which also passed in May, grants broad exemptions from not only the Endangered Species Act, but the Marine Mammal Protection Act as well. The bill also includes language (not even requested by the Defense Department) exempting the military from responsibility for off-base water withdrawals from Arizona's San Pedro River. Excessive water use and ground-water pumping by the Army's Fort Huachuca is threatening the river, which supports 400 species of birds, 180 species of butterflies, 87 species of mammals, and 68 amphibians and reptiles. The San Pedro has the highest diversity of vertebrate species in the inland United States, the second highest diversity of land-mammals in the world and is one of the state's last free-flowing waterways. The House leadership denied environmental champions any opportunity to offer amendments to remove these exemptions when the defense bill was debated on the House floor.

The Defense Authorization Bill now moves to conference committee, where members of the House and Senate will be tasked with ironing out the differences between the two bills.

Copyright 2002 National Wildlife Federation. All rights reserved. The above article may not be republished or redistributed, in whole or in part, without prior written consent of National Wildlife Federation.
:party

kahljorn
Jul 7th, 2003, 08:30 PM
Ruining the ecology is fun though. It's like what Southern California did to the "Sierra Mountains" area.

CaptainBubba
Jul 7th, 2003, 09:55 PM
For the hopefully last fucking time. Vinth is NOT A LIBERTARIAN. He is a perfect example of why I will no longer refer to myself as Libertarian though.

Something about the party is just irresistable to political psychos and I won't be associated with guys like Vince.

Its good this wasn't passed, in my opinion simply because of the shadiness and general sleeziness. As far as endangered species laws go... Its kind of silly on a large scale.

Nature adapts. Thats what it does. Its the natural order of things. If we wipe out a thousand species, then one thousand niches have just opened up for 10,000 other competing species to evolve into. All that really matters is how and why we are eradicating them.
Senseless slaughter is never justified.

kahljorn
Jul 7th, 2003, 10:49 PM
"Nature adapts. Thats what it does. Its the natural order of things. If we wipe out a thousand species, then one thousand niches have just opened up for 10,000 other competing species to evolve into"

Yea, ironic as it sounds nature does have a way of fixing things. It could be by PEOPLE WITH COMPASSION TRYING TO SAVE THINGS. Or it could be by "human-proof" things evolving. these, "Competing species" won't have much to evolve into if we keep destroying them everytime they come around. I'm sure it takes alot to sum that up though, right? I mean, destroying an entire ecology and filling it with a military base, they would learn how to like, live in the oil spots. And the toxic waste dumps. Cute little toxic fishies.

Jeanette X
Jul 8th, 2003, 12:15 AM
.
Nature adapts. Thats what it does. Its the natural order of things. If we wipe out a thousand species, then one thousand niches have just opened up for 10,000 other competing species to evolve into. All that really matters is how and why we are eradicating them.
Senseless slaughter is never justified.

But by destroying these species, we are essentially degrading our own quality of life and culture. ("Daddy, what were forests like?") I'd rather have these beautiful wild creatures and wild places around. To destroy them is to destroy part of our national heritage.
Besides, it takes a long time for a competing species to evolve into the niche that the extinct species filled.

FS
Jul 8th, 2003, 07:19 AM
If nature itself decides that a species of animal has to go, then yes, the void is filled up by nature. If humanity decides to wipe out a species of animal, they might be wiping out an entire food chain and possibly an entire ecosystem.

VinceZeb
Jul 8th, 2003, 08:04 AM
Bubba: You are too weak-willed and limp-wristed to be a libertarian. But your vote counts the same (unfortuantly).

FS: Isnt human beings wiping out a species of animals just nature taking placE? I mean, if we are no more important than the apes or tigers or lions, isn't that just nature taking it's course, except on a much larger scale?

FS
Jul 8th, 2003, 11:03 AM
I don't think so. No species of animal gangs up on another species to kill it, or kills them on a mass scale. In nature, animals live and hunt in small groups or alone. Once you've acquired sentience, it actually doesn't take much effort to cause great change - or damage - to nature.

However, I'm not so sure if that would be the case with an endangered species. I think that the disappearance of a species of already a low count would not have a very significant impact on the ecosystem they live in.

That's not to say that I don't find it a great pity when a species of animal vanishes, because they can't be brought back. Arguably, human interefence to preserve can be just as damaging as negative human interference, but not if people simply decide to withdraw and let nature handle itself.

VinceZeb
Jul 8th, 2003, 11:07 AM
But, if everything is from the same pool of ooze, and everything is evolved, arent we just a part of nature, and thus are just nature taking it's course?

Bennett
Jul 8th, 2003, 12:22 PM
If that would be what we choose to do, then yes, it would be nature taking its course. The repercussions of that, and nature taking it's course further would not be pleasant, however.

FS
Jul 8th, 2003, 05:31 PM
Personally, I see human sentience as a freak of nature. So, most of our undertakings and accomplishments, I see as unnatural. That may seem weak, but when you look at the main drives behind all of nature, you'll find that they don't match with the average human's priorities (of one living in the "1st World", anyway).

kahljorn
Jul 8th, 2003, 08:02 PM
Of course they do... Catfish are attracted to shiny objects. That about sums up the Human Existence.


"No species of animal gangs up on another species to kill it"
Wolves, pirhana, lions, tigers, bears oh my.

VinceZeb
Jul 8th, 2003, 08:23 PM
FS, that whole "abormality" (sinc) you see in humans is what 95% of the world likes to call a "soul" or "divine creation or purpose".

CaptainBubba
Jul 8th, 2003, 09:49 PM
I still think its silly. The forests will not be eradicated. Thats ridiculous. There is no such danger, and its a lie perpetuated by nature people that I actually despise.

As for species, well, if they don't really serve a nessecary purpose for all of humanity then its up to the individual to protect them in my opinion. If you feel that strongly about it I think you should do something about it yourself instead of asking the government to use my tax dollars for it.

Just so you know though, I'm somewhat of an animal lover, so this is in no way a biased opinion. Merley part of my principals. Something I stay true to despite my inner and external turmoil over it. This is a highlight of being a true Libertarian.

Though I'm sure Vince would argue its more about your strength aquired through vigorous masturbation. And will power? You can't even muster up the will to admit your own defeats and mishaps.

kahljorn
Jul 8th, 2003, 10:10 PM
"if they don't really serve a nessecary purpose for all of humanity"

.

CaptainBubba
Jul 8th, 2003, 10:31 PM
If they didn't then how could you morally justify forcing others to pay for the species protection?

Ethics before desires.

Jeanette X
Jul 8th, 2003, 11:39 PM
I still think its silly. The forests will not be eradicated. Thats ridiculous. There is no such danger, and its a lie perpetuated by nature people that I actually despise. .
Well I was really being rather facietious back there.

As for species, well, if they don't really serve a nessecary purpose for all of humanity then its up to the individual to protect them in my opinion. If you feel that strongly about it I think you should do something about it yourself instead of asking the government to use my tax dollars for it.
The same could be said of any government program, not just environmental protection.

Anyway, perhaps it is we who are driving ourselves to extinction . The destruction of one species, even one which has little direct importance to humanity, impacts ecosystems as a whole and may have unforeseen and undesireable consequences for humanity.


Wantonly destoying nature amounts to playing God, in my opinion.

kahljorn
Jul 9th, 2003, 01:33 AM
"If they didn't then how could you morally justify forcing others to pay for the species protection?"

Um, how could I morally do it? By morally stating that removing animals and slaughtering innocent creatures so some dimwitted guy like you can have a mini-mall to buy the latest linkin park cd is rather Immoral.
OH MY GOD. IT'S IMMORAL TO POINTLESSLY DESTROY PEOPLE AND CREATURES? JEEBUS. Who would have thought :(

Besides, it doesn't cost people any money to stop cutting down trees and destroying habitats. It only costs as a matter of Revenue.

FS
Jul 9th, 2003, 06:20 AM
Of course they do... Catfish are attracted to shiny objects. That about sums up the Human Existence.

But their life's goal is not to acquire shiny objects. Like all animals, their life's goal is to survive and procreate.

"No species of animal gangs up on another species to kill it"
Wolves, pirhana, lions, tigers, bears oh my.

They hunt in small groups and only on small groups. They don't collectively join to destroy an animal's habitat nor do they hunt more than they need.

FS, that whole "abormality" (sinc) you see in humans is what 95% of the world likes to call a "soul" or "divine creation or purpose".

I knew that point would eventually come up, and there's really no counterpoint I can bring up to debase belief. However, people who believe in a soul or divine origin probably also believe in evil, and that humans are not compareable to animals. In the long line of things, I doubt these people believe that construction projects or industries have much to do with any divine plan.

VinceZeb
Jul 9th, 2003, 08:14 AM
The three main spirtual groups in the world (Christanity/Judaism/Islam) teach that the world is for humans do what we will, but we must take care of it and the animals as well. There is no polar opposites when it comes to capitalism/conservation. The only people that see that there is a problem is the wacko-enviromentalist and the super greedy objectivist.

CaptainBubba
Jul 9th, 2003, 01:06 PM
"OH MY GOD. IT'S IMMORAL TO POINTLESSLY DESTROY PEOPLE AND CREATURES"

You added "people" and "pointlessly" in there so that would be true. You're as shady as the proposed bill. moron.

Jeanette X
Jul 9th, 2003, 02:14 PM
The three main spirtual groups in the world (Christanity/Judaism/Islam) teach that the world is for humans do what we will, but we must take care of it and the animals as well. There is no polar opposites when it comes to capitalism/conservation. The only people that see that there is a problem is the wacko-enviromentalist and the super greedy objectivist.

Oh my God...I agree with Vince. :faint Did I slip into some mirror universe and not realize it or what?